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Domino
10-26-2015, 07:56 PM
A question for your consideration -<br /> <br />Mastercrafted equipment can be refined. Using refined rares in mastercrafted boosts the base stats. As a result, since refining was added we have made the stats on mastercrafted gear a little lower than we would otherwise have if refining didn't exist.<br /> <br />However, we also have experimentation and infusing that can boost stats on equipment. Would it make life easier to make this expansion's equipment not refinable? So the mastercrafted gear stats would just start a little higher using normal rares, and the rares for this level range just can't be refined?<br /> <br />We're still discussing this internally also, no decisions made yet - so your thoughts on either option are welcome, if you have any!

Mermut
10-26-2015, 11:48 PM
It sounds like mastercrafted gear this expac is suffering from the same problem that the azure reactant gear suffered from in the Cobalt Scar expansion.<br />It was itemized with the assumption it would be made visionary, which meant it was garbage if it wasn't.<br /> <br />Current mastercrafted pieces take 5+ rares.. if you're refining that means likely double the amount, now for a reduced 5% increase rather then the old 10% increase. If it's also balanced assuming it's going to be 5x experimented on (which usually takes 10+ minutes for all but the most skilled experimenters) that is a huge amount of time and resources for something that is worse then heroic gear that can be garnered in much less time with additional rewards. Plus mastercrafted gear can't be reforged. That in and of itself is a huge down-side to mastercrafted.<br /> <br />Mastercrafted gear should have some point in it's base value. When it's base value is trumped by easy solo quest gear, it is a waste of time and resources.

Uncle
10-27-2015, 12:04 AM
here is my .02<br /> <br />refining in general is meh as other have stated RNG to get the mats which knowing it takes 5 rares you are looking at 25~30 rare just to get the mats to make the item which in return keeps rares at a increase value and puts crafted gear out of most players price range even if crafters are just wanting to just get there money back at even cost.<br /> <br />so if your going to make adjustment to this make its stats just above advance solo gear or t1 heroic gear with out it being infuseable/expermental so it wont be Overpowered/ overpriced so player will at least try to make it and use it..

Akina_Storms
10-27-2015, 12:54 AM
refining or not, du to the time needed to create a master craft, if it can compete with T1 heroic, or T2 like in AoM, why create mastercraft in first hand?

azcn2503
10-27-2015, 01:46 AM
I would like to see refining left in this expansion. Regarding the power of unrefined mastercrafted versus handcrafted, would it not be possible to just lower the stats on the handcrafted? Then there would still be a progression of handcrafted > mastercrafted > refined mastercrafted. I think it would be confusing to a great number of users when examining an item in the recipe result and seeing that its base stats are worse than handcrafted, yet it requires rare ingredients. It's not possible to see from examining the recipe what the refined stats will be. I guess the issue with scaling down handcrafted would be making sure that the handcrafted is still worth it for someone moving in to ToT from AoM quested, handcrafted, or mastercrafted gear.

Finora
10-27-2015, 02:22 AM
Due to real life I've had very little time to actually do any beta testing, however I have to agree with some of the other posters. <br /><br />Mastercrafted gear needs to have stats that at least make it worth the time and materials it takes to make it, with or without refining or experimenting. Mastercrafted stats should never (no matter what the experimented/ refining values result in) have lower stats at any point than the handcrafted version of the item of the same tier.

Yukinoh
10-27-2015, 08:03 AM
It'd be easier, but not fun. I would rather be able to make a very, very good piece of gear as a crafter - even jumping through many materials and multiple hoops - than have boring and bland itemization that sidelines crafters as quickly as we have been the past few expansions.<br /> <br />(After MC resist jewelry last expansion to break into heroic and raid content, crafting died again. I would love for crafters to be able to stay viable for longer periods of time per expansion.)

Caith
10-27-2015, 08:08 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Yukinoh"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Yukinoh said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272111#post-6272111" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">It'd be easier, but not fun. I would rather be able to make a very, very good piece of gear as a crafter - even jumping through many materials and multiple hoops - than have boring and bland itemization that sidelines crafters as quickly as we have been the past few expansions.<br /> <br />(After MC resist jewelry last expansion to break into heroic and raid content, crafting died again. I would love for crafters to be able to stay viable for longer periods of time per expansion.)</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />While this feedback is well taken, it may be miss placed here. The issue in refining is that it increases all stats across the board, which means that to prevent refined gear from being so powerful that it wrecks all other itemization, the base stats on mastercrafted gear have to be set lower to compensate. Sometimes so much lower that some stats on mastercrafted gear that has not been refined are actually below that stat on handcrafted gear.

Laiina
10-27-2015, 08:11 AM
I would prefer to keep the current system, where rares can be refined for higher quality gear. It is not something that anyone is required to invest extra time or plat in - but it gives a nice option for those that want the best.

Errrorr
10-27-2015, 08:14 AM
Personally I've never been a major fan of refining, mainly due to the luck based chance of rares being refined correctly, and the amount of times I've made an item, then realised I messed up by it selecting normal rares over refined.<br /> <br />I'd much rather just have Mastercrafted armour be a certain level, and then experiment/infusable onto it.

Elinea
10-27-2015, 08:17 AM
My husband and I both have some conflicting feelings on this. We feel that adding the ability to use refined rares was great in AoM. Now what you are saying with the lowering of stats to account for refining is something akin to raising prices of items before putting them on sale. Why lower stats just to raise them up with refining? It sort of negates the value of refining.<br /> <br />If you raise the base stats back up, and not allow refining at all, along with salvage not returning rares for this particular tier, you'll make that tree of the tradeskill prestige pointless beyond the goblin. Of course this only applies to people playing with the current expac, not the people who are still actively playing AoM as their top content.<br /> <br />I can say that both options don't sound very appealing. It's like, "here, we'll raise the price and put this on sale for you, or you can just pay our normally high price, which isn't as good a value as you paid last year".<br /> <br />I don't know, I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts and don't want anyone to take offense. May I ask why there was a need to change over how we did it with AoM? Is it because of the addition of infusers? Was mastercrafted gear too overpowered last year? As long as gear from heroic zones is still superior to mastercrafted gear that has been infused, experimented, and refined, I don't understand...unless you're saying it won't be.

Sigrdrifa
10-27-2015, 08:19 AM
Personally, <i><b>I'd like to have mastercrafted goods be desirable enough that other people would buy what I make</b></i>. I've been making mastercrafted stuff out of refined rares and experimenting it to visionary, but it doesn't sell. If it does sell, it isn't selling for as much as the cost of the refined rares plus all the fuel needed for the combine, the imbue combine, then five experimentation combines. As a result, only a masochist (that would be me, I guess) makes refined mastercrafted experimented gear, and then only does so for their own alts (except for the few lonely pieces I have on the broker, gathering virtual dust because no one will buy them).<br /> <br />In <i><span style="text-decoration: underline">my</span></i> theory, Mastercrafted is supposed to be in the vicinity of Legendary. It should be better than Legendary overland drops, but not quite as good as Legendary instance drops. It should still be that way, made from unrefined rares. Then by the time you've added refined rares, I'd want the stuff to be in the vicinity of the instance Legendary, maybe a smidge better. If you're a really big masochist and then experiment that stuff five times, it should be better than Legendary, but not quite as good as Fabled instance gear.<br /> <br />I used to make a decent amount of in-game money via crafting. That simply doesn't happen anymore. I make most of my in-game plat selling shinies and via raid plat split. The only reason I have to level crafters is so I can supply my own toons with inferior gear, and even then I can just unattune stuff from the older alts and pass it down. Why even craft at higher levels? I still do it. I don't know why.

Nero
10-27-2015, 08:21 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272116#post-6272116" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">While this feedback is well taken, it may be miss placed here. The issue in refining is that it increases all stats across the board, which means that to prevent refined gear from being so powerful that it wrecks all other itemization, the base stats on mastercrafted gear have to be set lower to compensate. Sometimes so much lower that some stats on mastercrafted gear that has not been refined are actually below that stat on handcrafted gear.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Just my 2cents, but it just doesnt seem right to have MC gear be worse than HC unless we use refined materials to do so.<br /> <br />Is it possible to decrease the bonus that using refined rares gives to the gear and make it so that the gear progression still follows the trend of HC(100% stats for example)< MC(110% stats)<MC (using refined rares)(115% stats).

Cleitus
10-27-2015, 08:28 AM
Well, it makes no sense for MC items to ever have lower stats than HC items. If Refining is going to cause that to be the case, then i would say that Refining makes no sense and should be removed or modified. It's supposed to be an extra bonus, not mandatory. Maybe it could be changed to add some other type of bonus to the item, aside from a percent stat increase.

Laiina
10-27-2015, 08:34 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272120#post-6272120" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I'd much rather just have Mastercrafted armour be a certain level, and then experiment/infusable onto it.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Maybe raise the possible stat increase with experimenting for no refining?<br /> <br />I think the original idea of refining was good: better materials = better gear. But maybe other ways to accomplish the same thing.

Errrorr
10-27-2015, 08:43 AM
Yeah I'd rather see the Experimenting bonuses increased as well if we skip refining. At least Experimenting has a risk associated with it.

Yukinoh
10-27-2015, 03:11 PM
Additional thought : If refining goes away for this expansion, which might need doing, and I don't see recipes yet requiring Quintessences, the whole leftmost column of the Far Seas tradeskill prestige tree becomes invalidated.

doit
10-27-2015, 06:01 PM
just reduce the stats of handcrafted gear.<br />problem solved without having to disable refining or change higher end itemization

Elinea
10-27-2015, 06:07 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Yukinoh"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Yukinoh said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272486#post-6272486" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Additional thought : If refining goes away for this expansion, which might need doing, and I don't see recipes yet requiring Quintessences, the whole leftmost column of the Far Seas tradeskill prestige tree becomes invalidated.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>The goblin and track harvestables are still useful, but at this point, those are the only things I'd use (and probably not even the goblin anymore).

NrthnStar5
10-27-2015, 06:07 PM
It would seem completely backwards if MC gear had lower stats than HC. If that is the only option with refining, then I say no to refining.

Yukinoh
10-27-2015, 09:50 PM
Naw, didn't mean that one, it still has utility - I meant the Far Seas line, the one with refining and salvaging of quintessence.

Alexic
10-27-2015, 10:22 PM
I have been a crafting fanatic from my first day in the game many years ago now. The way crafters are treated now with 95% of the gear not truly usable to advance in tiers of zones makes me wonder why we have this taking up lines of code anymore? I remember the days when a crafter could make a living off of what he actually crafted. Had people seeking him out to craft this or that for them. Not so in current times. I am ready to give up totally on crafting in general (I currently have 51 level 100 crafters on 2 different accounts) I did this to generate blank runes in early AoM to make money to support my Alt Army but with no new runes even this will fall in the gutter. I hate to state this but am giving a vote of no confidence to the crafting in game in general now. Crafters want to be a part of a team also where raiders will depend on use to craft things. In DoV days I can remember crafting while in a raid zone to make a new piece of gear from the shards not just for myself but for members of my raid force also. That was last I can say that crafting was truly viable and needed. How about having to craft an item to defeat a raid boss while the mob is engaged? Lets put crafting back in the frontlines of the game and not just as a house decorators necessity please....

flameweaver
10-27-2015, 10:30 PM
MC gear should be of a quality that means a crafter can sell with a reasonable expectation that someone will buy it and at the end of a "boosting" crafting process, it should always trump handcrafted gear of the same tier.<br /> <br />If itemisation is that big of an issue, would a reasonable solution be that MC gear can be either refined or experimented on, but not both ??

Daray
10-27-2015, 10:36 PM
Imo just lower the refined gains, but still keep the refining process in place for those that want the option to further boost their items. I'm not really a fan of outright removing options unless there is no other way.

Rainmare
10-27-2015, 10:58 PM
I think that if itemization is a problem, then we need to know where you think MC/HC should be.<br /> <br />imo I think HC stuff should be equal/same range at the adv solo Legendary stuff, and MC should be in the range of the t1 heroic Legendary off the bat. maybe give it stats that the others don't. some of the combinations we seem to have lost, like things with WDB.<br /> <br />there needs to be a reason for someone to buy it. that someone would want that gear to start with, before we refine/experiment on it. this especially effects armorers and weaponsmiths. if my armor isn't as good as the adv solo gear, unless it's refined/experimented, then I'm never going to even sell it refined or experimented on, because every has already dismissed it.<br />It needs to be good enough to start with that they want it, then refining/experimenting becomes a wanted bonus.<br /> <br />but the options your giving us is get rid of refining, or make the armor basics weaker to force refining to make it even remotely viable. if I have to chose between those, I would chose to make them unrefinable. at least then if it's strong enough someone might actually want to buy it for the hours I'm going to spend harvesting the 35 rares to make a set.

Mermut
10-27-2015, 10:58 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Daray"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Daray said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272829#post-6272829" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Imo just lower the refined gains, but still keep the refining process in place for those that want the option to further boost their items. I'm not really a fan of outright removing options unless there is no other way.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>They've already lowered it from 10% to 5%

Elinea
10-27-2015, 11:05 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Rainmare"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Rainmare said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272840#post-6272840" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I think that if itemization is a problem, then we need to know where you think MC/HC should be.<br /> <br />imo I think HC stuff should be equal/same range at the adv solo Legendary stuff, and MC should be in the range of the t1 heroic Legendary off the bat. maybe give it stats that the others don't. some of the combinations we seem to have lost, like things with WDB.<br /> <br />there needs to be a reason for someone to buy it. that someone would want that gear to start with, before we refine/experiment on it. this especially effects armorers and weaponsmiths. if my armor isn't as good as the adv solo gear, unless it's refined/experimented, then I'm never going to even sell it refined or experimented on, because every has already dismissed it.<br />It needs to be good enough to start with that they want it, then refining/experimenting becomes a wanted bonus.<br /> <br />but the options your giving us is get rid of refining, or make the armor basics weaker to force refining to make it even remotely viable. if I have to chose between those, I would chose to make them unrefinable. at least then if it's strong enough someone might actually want to buy it for the hours I'm going to spend harvesting the 35 rares to make a set.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Not to mention that the rate of returns on refining is horrible. I've refined a stack of 20 rares and gotten back 4. I can't even make a single item with 4 refined components. This was the reason I gave up refining my MC gear.

Domino
10-28-2015, 02:06 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Finora"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Finora said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272291#post-6272291" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Mastercrafted gear needs to have stats that at least make it worth the time and materials it takes to make it, with or without refining or experimenting. Mastercrafted stats should never (no matter what the experimented/ refining values result in) have lower stats at any point than the handcrafted version of the item of the same tier.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>To clarify a couple of points:<br /><ul><li>we know where as-improved-as-possible Mastercrafted gear is intended to fall relative to other equipment, and it will stay at that level whether or not refining is required to get it there. The question is not about changing how good it's possible to make the gear, it is about whether refining is needed to reach those stats, or just experimenting.</li><li>the relative stats of handcrafted compared to mastercrafted are already being looked at and will be adjusted so the difference is clearer, but that is an entirely separate discussion not relevant to this question.</li></ul>

Mermut
10-28-2015, 02:16 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Domino"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Domino said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272972#post-6272972" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">To clarify a couple of points:<br /><ul><li>we know where as-improved-as-possible Mastercrafted gear is intended to fall relative to other equipment, and it will stay at that level whether or not refining is required to get it there. The question is not about changing how good it's possible to make the gear, it is about whether refining is needed to reach those stats, or just experimenting.</li><li>the relative stats of handcrafted compared to mastercrafted are already being looked at and will be adjusted so the difference is clearer, but that is an entirely separate discussion not relevant to this question.</li></ul></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Part of my concern isn't where 'as good as possible' mastecrafted gear ends up, but where the base MC gear is. Currently, it is so far below even the solo questline gear as to make it pointless.<br />It takes a huge amount of resources to make refined gear now.<br />It takes a big chunk of time to visionary a single piece of gear.<br />If that level of gear is the only level that remotely useful, this gear will suffer the same fate as the azure reactant gear.<br /> <br />I'm curious, though. Can you share where, roughly, fully upgraded MC gear is expected to fall? Below all heroic gear? Roughly equivalent to bottom tier heroic gear? Equivalent to advanced solo gear?

Retrebution
10-28-2015, 09:10 AM
I think refining should be left in as a "bonus", which is really what it already was. Being someone who came back last xpac, I relied heavily on MC gear until I started doing heroics. Honestly, Every piece I owned was experimented on. The breast plate was the only piece that I had which was refined. I basically bypassed the blue shard armor doing this. The experimented MC gear was "good enough" to get through the easiest green shard zones. Granted this was with green/red geared healers.<br /> <br />So what's the rub? Not everyone has 30-50k plat to drop on a full set of refined/experimented/ MC gear. Basic MC gear should be better than adv solo (legendary) gear, in terms of green stats. If you have experimented gear, bonus! It takes me a little over an hour to experiment on a full set of plate, assuming I don't loose a piece in the process. Visionary MC gear should be more than enough to get you through the beginner heroics and into the medium ones. Refined Visionary should be good enough to carry into the easiest of high end heroics. This way you are rewarding the player for investing the time/plat into the gear. I used the refined Visionary MC breastplate until I had enough green shards to purchase my current one. Is the refined Visionary BP better than the blue shard one with equivalent stats? No, not really...but they are very close.<br /> <br />Break down should I imagine should look something like this:<br />__________________________________________________<br />Hand Crafted<br />Adv Solo<br />MC<br />Easy Heroic<br />Refined MC/ Experimented (Visionary) MC<br />Medium Heroic/ Refined Experimented (Visionary) MC<br />Hard Heroic<br /> <br />Respectfully,

Meirril
10-29-2015, 02:17 AM
I think a more basic question needs to be addressed: Do new mechanics take precedence over established mechanics?<br />According to Caith's itemization thread MC is suppose to out perform low end heroic. With it stated out as it is now the base line MC is below HC. That means between experimentation, refining and infusion you can increase it from being the worst stats in itemization to something fairly high.<br /> <br />That is obviously too much of a range. Some of the stat boosting needs to go.<br /> <br />Adding 10% to the base stats, and then another 10% to 5 stats (or diminishing returns for higher stats) is what we've been able to do for quite a while now. That is the established effects of refining and experimentation. Refining is accused of being too big of a boost.<br /> <br />But wouldn't it be an equal solution to remove the ToT expansion's new mechanic from crafted gear? Actually wouldn't the MC gear look much better if all the improvement that infusion was suppose to introduce was instead part of the base line equipment?<br /> <br />It isn't like players would put a lot of effort into infusing crafted gear anyways. For most players MC is something they will consider using for a brief amount of time while they seriously look at how to acquire better gear. They aren't looking to invest a ton of effort into upgrading crafted equipment. Everything they have experienced in EQ2 tells them that they can do better, and the infusion mechanic tells them they need to invest heavily in the gear the are going to use. So why would they waste time and plat on something they plan on replacing? Top end heroics and raid drops are going to have plat spent on them. Not crafted or quest drops. Adv solo gear would have some people maxing it out, but those are people that won't do anything other than solo content.<br /> <br />Anyways I'm pointing the finger of blame at infusion. I'd like to see established mechanics continued with refining giving a full 10%. If we had to loose either refining or experimentation I'd rather see experimentation removed. The increased rare consumption for refining helps to keep the market healthy. Experimentation is a risky gamble that most crafters won't do ahead of time because customers could want a different set of stats improved. Refining is something easily brokered because there is no variance.

Rainmare
10-29-2015, 08:05 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Domino"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Domino said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272972#post-6272972" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">To clarify a couple of points:<br /><ul><li>we know where as-improved-as-possible Mastercrafted gear is intended to fall relative to other equipment, and it will stay at that level whether or not refining is required to get it there. The question is not about changing how good it's possible to make the gear, it is about whether refining is needed to reach those stats, or just experimenting.</li><li>the relative stats of handcrafted compared to mastercrafted are already being looked at and will be adjusted so the difference is clearer, but that is an entirely separate discussion not relevant to this question.</li></ul></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>We understand the question. the point we're trying to get is that if it's not viable BEFORE you experiment/refine it, then your question is moot, because no one is going to want it in the first place. if the final result is say, T2 legendary, but the original item is worse then T1 legendary since you want it refined to get it to a little over T1, and hen experimenting gets it to T2, then I would forgo refining (put it at the refined level to start) then just allow experimenting. however if the basic version is T1 legend, and then there's a small jump past on refining, and then another jump past on experimenting, then I would still want both in there.<br /> <br />becuase if someone looks at the gear, and says 'this is worse then stuff I can get from a 30 minute zone run, vs several hours of harvesting the 5 rares' then no one is even going to bother, no matter how good it might get fully 'upgraded' if the basic product is unappealing, no one is going to care what bells and whistles you can add on it. they've already left the store.

Kickya
10-29-2015, 11:18 PM
whats the point ?<br /> <br />Lower stats so you can refine and gain the points back LOL<br />why not just have higher stats and kick refining to the curb?<br /> <br />All this does is prolong the duration required to get something back that was taken away.<br /> <br />plus refining only adds 5% now and the items crafted cant be reforged so were all going to use a few bits of mastercrafted for a few weeks then were all going to want to upgrade with heroic drops and regain the ability to reforge.

Lucus
10-30-2015, 01:34 AM
Itemize based on the base item, it takes what 5 refined rares for the new gear like AoM stuff, the only time i had any reason to refine is to get the best weapons/shield for my main toons, the only reason after that is when there's so much rares floating around that the gain/loss rate of refining is lessened.<br /> <br />refining only adds 5% now and it takes 5 rares to make MC gear, balance by the base item but curb back the number of rares required for MC gear or create two types of MC gear unrefinable (2 rares) and refinable (5 rares), people that min-max will take the refined gear while the rest of us will take unrefined gear a good portion of the time. then balance on unrefined.<br /> <br />balancing around the maximum punishes those that don't min-max and makes their gameplay more tedious.

Pauly
11-02-2015, 06:13 AM
I'd prefer refining remain instead of using the new infusions, because reality is, nobody will spend plat infusing gear to get stats back that are removed with refining.<br /> <br />I'm kinda tired of the idea that mc gear is lower end garbage. I can get 4 full sets of adv solo gear before i have enough rares to make i set of mc gear.<br /> <br />I knew as soon as I saw the infusion demo that mc gear was going to be junk compared to gear that can be reforged. There was a time that MC gear was as good as heroic gear (not adv solo) without having to jump through hoops like refining, experimenting and now infusions... and after all those hoops I bet it still falls under heroic gear.<br /> <br />If MC gear is now supposed to fall between adv solo and heroic it should only take ONE rare per item. Otherwise, nobody but pure soloers will even give it a look.

Elinea
11-02-2015, 06:30 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Pauly"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Pauly said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276853#post-6276853" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I knew as soon as I saw the infusion demo that mc gear was going to be junk compared to gear that can be reforged.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I just wanted to point out that master crafted gear can be reforged this expansion. I don't know if that will apply to previous expansion's master crafted stuff, but this stuff can be reforged. Assuming you have the AoD feature pack, or paid for the individual option. I know they said pre-ordering gives you access to all previous content, but in the past they have always excluded AoD features from that. I don't know if it's different now that it's not owned by Sony.

Mermut
11-02-2015, 06:35 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Elinea"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Elinea said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276857#post-6276857" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I just wanted to point out that master crafted gear can be reforged this expansion. I don't know if that will apply to previous expansion's master crafted stuff, but this stuff can be reforged. Assuming you have the AoD feature pack, or paid for the individual option. I know they said pre-ordering gives you access to all previous content, but in the past they have always excluded AoD features from that. I don't know if it's different now that it's not owned by Sony.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Because it's marked legendary as well, yup.

Meirril
11-02-2015, 06:43 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Pauly"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Pauly said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276853#post-6276853" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I'd prefer refining remain instead of using the new infusions, because reality is, nobody will spend plat infusing gear to get stats back that are removed with refining.<br /> <br />I'm kinda tired of the idea that mc gear is lower end garbage. I can get 4 full sets of adv solo gear before i have enough rares to make i set of mc gear.<br /> <br />I knew as soon as I saw the infusion demo that mc gear was going to be junk compared to gear that can be reforged. There was a time that MC gear was as good as heroic gear (not adv solo) without having to jump through hoops like refining, experimenting and now infusions... and after all those hoops I bet it still falls under heroic gear.<br /> <br />If MC gear is now supposed to fall between adv solo and heroic it should only take ONE rare per item. Otherwise, nobody but pure soloers will even give it a look.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I've been against this idea for a while. Refining and Experimentation were suppose to be neat things that made crafting more desirable. But the truth of the matter is itemization works backwards and we get weaker MC because of these prestige abilities.<br /> <br />So yes, discount refining for ToT and for that matter please remove the ability to experiment on anything. Crafting is better off without them. If we could get a few more points in exchange, crafting is better off without infusing as well. As heartbreaking of a conclusion as it is, we're better off making the simplest item possible because everything else robs points from MC.

Mermut
11-02-2015, 06:56 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Meirril"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Meirril said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276864#post-6276864" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I've been against this idea for a while. Refining and Experimentation were suppose to be neat things that made crafting more desirable. But the truth of the matter is itemization works backwards and we get weaker MC because of these prestige abilities.<br /> <br />So yes, discount refining for ToT and for that matter please remove the ability to experiment on anything. Crafting is better off without them. If we could get a few more points in exchange, crafting is better off without infusing as well. As heartbreaking of a conclusion as it is, we're better off making the simplest item possible because everything else robs points from MC.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>This, unfortunately, seems to be true. <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" />

Alexic
11-03-2015, 02:13 AM
Yes very very true. If when I make a mastercrafted item it turns out lower stats than a handcrafted item it appears most players would not consider it Mastercrafted. To use an oldie but goodie... Fuzzie Wuzzy was a bear But Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair so Fuzzy Wuzzy wasnt really Fuzzy was he? jus sayin..... <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

Feldon
11-03-2015, 02:28 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272116#post-6272116" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">While this feedback is well taken, it may be miss placed here. The issue in refining is that it increases all stats across the board, which means that to prevent refined gear from being so powerful that it wrecks all other itemization, the base stats on mastercrafted gear have to be set lower to compensate. Sometimes so much lower that some stats on mastercrafted gear that has not been refined are actually below that stat on handcrafted gear.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Given this, I'd say pitch Refining.<br /> <br />When I looked at the itemization in AoM, it quickly became obvious that MC/refined/experimented belt, cloak, and weapons was the only way to fly until I got later into Heroics.

Confession
11-03-2015, 04:32 PM
The design mistake is making the stats lower in the first place to compensate for refining, the penalty of mastercrafted gear not being reforgeable is plenty to offset the difference. I still don't believe the idea that equipment that is both refined and experimented properly should need to be worse than heroic gear. Limiting mastercrafted blue stats to things like reuse, recovery, and max health, where excess isn't desirable, allows you to balance regardless, since those stats still aren't improved by refining, and excess from too many pieces means that you're better off once you do get heroic gear that can be reforged. In this way, mastercrafted gear is still a useful stepping stone, not the end of the game, but not less valuable for the time and effort the gatherers and crafters put into making it, so they can actually sell some of it.

Mermut
11-03-2015, 04:56 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Confession"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Confession said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6277981#post-6277981" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">The design mistake is making the stats lower in the first place to compensate for refining, the penalty of mastercrafted gear not being reforgeable is plenty to offset the difference. I still don't believe the idea that equipment that is both refined and experimented properly should need to be worse than heroic gear. Limiting mastercrafted blue stats to things like reuse, recovery, and max health, where excess isn't desirable, allows you to balance regardless, since those stats still aren't improved by refining, and excess from too many pieces means that you're better off once you do get heroic gear that can be reforged. In this way, mastercrafted gear is still a useful stepping stone, not the end of the game, but not less valuable for the time and effort the gatherers and crafters put into making it, so they can actually sell some of it.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>If they start putting a bunch of recovery speed on MC gear, I'll never use it.. MOST USELESS STAT EVER if you ever have any lag <img src="/images/smilies/tongue.gif" alt="Tongue" />

Laiina
11-03-2015, 05:14 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Feldon"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Feldon said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6277805#post-6277805" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Given this, I'd say pitch Refining.<br /> <br />When I looked at the itemization in AoM, it quickly became obvious that MC/refined/experimented belt, cloak, and weapons was the only way to fly until I got later into Heroics.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>On the other hand, if refining is tossed out, what happens to the AA tree - yet another useless skill like swimming?<br /> <br />Before beta I was on the fence about this, but after seeing how the (now 5%) refining and infusions work there, I would prefer to go back to the last tier 10%. Just for grins I maxed out one character with infusions - and used up hundreds of the epic ones. Those are presumably raid-only drops, so it will be literally impossible for the average person to get any really significant gear boost just from infusions alone. The low level infusions - which only have a 20% chance to do anything - are fairly common in solo instances, but you would probably need over 2,000 of them to get an overall 5% boost in one stat across all gear - and then if you replace the gear, you have lost that.

Feldon
11-03-2015, 05:23 PM
If the ceiling on MC stats is going to stay the same, but require Refining to get where we used to get, then why have it except as a super obvious hamster wheel?

Laiina
11-03-2015, 05:24 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Feldon"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Feldon said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6277805#post-6277805" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Given this, I'd say pitch Refining.<br /> <br />When I looked at the itemization in AoM, it quickly became obvious that MC/refined/experimented belt, cloak, and weapons was the only way to fly until I got later into Heroics.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>You did not mention the fact that EACH piece of gear takes (usually) 5 rares (a few are more), and if refined approximately double that. So for a full upgrade of all gear to refined would take a substantial number of rares - roughly 200 - somewhat difficult, but doable. But for many people to get any substantial number of infusions it is a whole different story. It will require running 4-5 solo instances just to get one 100% upgrade of perhaps 3 crit bonus. And the solo zones in ToT are not something you run as a daily routine like you did the AoM ones.

Feldon
11-03-2015, 05:44 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Laiina"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Laiina said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278043#post-6278043" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">You did not mention the fact that EACH piece of gear takes (usually) 5 rares (a few are more), and if refined approximately double that. So for a full upgrade of all gear to refined would take a substantial number of rares - roughly 200 - somewhat difficult, but doable.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Just to get what used to be known as "Mastercrafted".

Mermut
11-03-2015, 05:44 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Laiina"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Laiina said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278029#post-6278029" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">On the other hand, if refining is tossed out, what happens to the AA tree - yet another useless skill like swimming?<br /> <br />Before beta I was on the fence about this, but after seeing how the (now 5%) refining and infusions work there, I would prefer to go back to the last tier 10%. Just for grins I maxed out one character with infusions - and used up hundreds of the epic ones. Those are presumably raid-only drops, so it will be literally impossible for the average person to get any really significant gear boost just from infusions alone. The low level infusions - which only have a 20% chance to do anything - are fairly common in solo instances, but you would probably need over 2,000 of them to get an overall 5% boost in one stat across all gear - and then if you replace the gear, you have lost that.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I'd rather have useless AA then have mastercrafted 'designed' with the expectation that it will ALWAYS be refined AND 5 times experimented, because the MC gear ends up being effectively useless if you don't do both. And I know that most people do NOT visionary all, or even most, of their gear and with the 5+ rares per item, 'requiring' it to be refined to be useful is, as you mentioned, doubling the rares required.

Estal
11-05-2015, 07:28 PM
I don't mind refining and experimenting existing in theory,<br /> <br />But:<br /> <br />There is simply not enough room in the itemization for what is essentially three tiers (normal, refined and refined + experimented) of mastercrafted gear.<br /> <br />So I'd be happy to see refining removed (can always bring it back when someone gets around to fixing itemization from top to bottom).

Feldon
11-05-2015, 10:40 PM
Can we please get "Likes" turned on for this forum?

Sigrdrifa
11-05-2015, 11:00 PM
Amen, brother Feldon.

CoLD MeTaL
11-06-2015, 08:25 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272116#post-6272116" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">While this feedback is well taken, it may be miss placed here. The issue in refining is that it increases all stats across the board, which means that to prevent refined gear from being so powerful that it wrecks all other itemization, the base stats on mastercrafted gear have to be set lower to compensate. Sometimes so much lower that some stats on mastercrafted gear that has not been refined are actually below that stat on handcrafted gear.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>And I would say, that I find it very irritating that the team does this.<br /> <br />This is adding steps, just to add steps. I assume to pull more resources out of the game.<br /> <br />I don't see why you would want to arbitrarily make things longer just because at this age of the game. (To me, this is like them knocking out the bridge between my house and work. Nothing really changes, but my commute is now longer than it used to be and I just lose. I do find this interesting since it confirms what we've known goes on, but no one would admit.)<br /> <br />For me, I want mastercrafted to be on par with what it used to be and the 'extra' steps actually have a chance to have it make the items very worthwhile.<br /> <br />So in answer to Domino, I would find her suggestion much more preferable, to make masterdrafted not use refined product.

Arieva
11-06-2015, 10:56 AM
Ditch refining, The mastercrafted should be full stat without it. Thanks

Alexic
11-06-2015, 06:47 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arieva"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arieva said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279681#post-6279681" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Ditch refining, The mastercrafted should be full stat without it. Thanks</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Highly agreed. maybe then all the work that people put into tradeskilling/harvesting would be viewed as relevant to the game .... which at this point IT ISN'T jus sayin..... unless of course you are a house decorator... but have yet to see a quest that deals with obtaining anything as a reward for DECORATING a house. The name of the game is Everquest 2 Right?

Xerikton
11-06-2015, 09:17 PM
keep both as is. let the players decided which one they want to use.<br /> <br />as the system is now I can't see refined gear being made much but rather regular experimented ones instead.<br /> <br />besides with the server merges getting group content is easier. this new mc gear isn't as good by comparison to aom mc to group. perhaps that is by intent.

Mermut
11-06-2015, 09:34 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Xerikton"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Xerikton said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6280010#post-6280010" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">keep both as is. let the players decided which one they want to use.<br /> <br />as the system is now I can't see refined gear being made much but rather regular experimented ones instead.<br /> <br />besides with the server merges getting group content is easier. this new mc gear isn't as good by comparison to aom mc to group. perhaps that is by intent.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Having base MC be WORSE then handcrafted is broken. If the only way to get 'regular' MC better then HC is to ditch refining, then refining should be ditched. An item that takes 5+ rares should never be WORSE then it's handcrafted counterpart that takes none.

Domino
11-07-2015, 12:28 AM
Thanks for all the discussion. There are definitely arguments on both sides, and we're not seeing one clear overwhelming consensus, so we have decided to keep refining for now. Caith has done some rebalancing of the crafted equipment stats also.

Caith
11-07-2015, 01:15 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Domino"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Domino said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6280113#post-6280113" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Caith has done some rebalancing of the crafted equipment stats also.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />More on this. Armor crafted with rares should absolutely be better than handcrafted now. There may be an outlying stat here and there that does not follow rule, but those should be considered a bug and reported.

Sigrdrifa
11-07-2015, 01:28 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6280143#post-6280143" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">More on this. Armor crafted with rares should absolutely be better than handcrafted now. There may be an outlying stat here and there that does not follow rule, but those should be considered a bug and reported.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Thanks to both of you devs. At this point, few tradeskillers expect to "make a living" in-game via crafting alone, but there should be some point in being able to craft stuff... it should be good enough that people will want it as starter gear for a tier, at least.

Alexic
11-07-2015, 04:49 AM
Thank you Caith and Domino. It has gone on and on with this thread that made many think the time spent on making MC gear would be irrelevant as the harvesting does take a major part of this process. Looking forward to seeing updated MC stats.

Pauly
11-08-2015, 05:00 AM
let hope that MC is usable.. i HATE having to refine/experiment on it just to have usable gear

Xerikton
11-09-2015, 02:57 PM
I have only made the jewelry thus far. most of the effects are different than anything I have seen before. there is a LOT of choices ie recipes for each slot. looks like different classes and play styles were taken into consideration heavily.<br /> <br />I have replaced some quested gear pieces mostly because of the effects as the other stats are even or only slightly better with everything being REFINED. my experimenter isn't copied over so no idea on that.<br /> <br />one thing I did notice is not everything is upgraded when refined, for example, the potency and crit bonus. I am not sure if this intended, erroneously omitted or the new upgrade ( ) just doesn't show it. my guess it is intended.<br /> <br />so yes unrefined mc is useable. having an effect with 72% increase in potency or crit bonus is useable even if the base stats are slightly lower or even. having an effect with 52% pot or cb and when target is under 50% health grants an additional 125% is useable. I can go on and on but these stuck out.<br /> <br />overall I am well pleased at what I saw and made.<br /> <br />thank you devs.