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Daray
10-21-2015, 01:51 AM
So, since this pretty much affects every class (some to a higher degree than others), I might as well make this into its own thread.<br /> <br />I'm not exactly sure what the goal of imposing hard caps on CB and WDB is, so if I am missing something feel free to enlighten me. The chosen cap numbers do also seem to be a bit arbitrary, and hard capping key multipliers does seem to limit future growth/itemisation potential (given some players are already exceeding these caps on Live in raid combat settings).<br /> <br />Off the top of my head, I can only guess that these specific changes might be directed at 2 things (even though the implications will affect every class)...<br /><ul><li>Autoattack vs CA damage balance: Given the boost that CAs have seen, my guess is that this is probably the primary reason behind the caps.</li><li>Focused Casting: has drawn a lot of attention elsewhere recently and was specifically targeted in the patch notes.</li></ul>Now my opinion - There are more elegant solutions that could have been used in place of hard caps. Players will naturally gravitate towards an optimal setup as a matter of course, and those goal posts can be moved and influenced through the design side.<br /><ul><li>Ability and autoattack balance can be shifted by increasing base values on CAs, whilst also reducing base damage values on weapons.</li><li>Focused casting, assuming this was a factor, can be redressed by adjusting the values on the ability itself.</li><li>You can control the availability and growth of certain attributes from the itemisation side too, without needing to resort to hard capping multipliers.</li><li>Probably other stuff I haven't thought of or thought through (like diminishing returns on wdb).</li></ul>Anywho, tl;dr, forcing hard caps in this manner (and on these attributes) probably isn't going to garner a whole lot of support. But time will tell.

Yards
10-21-2015, 03:50 AM
I still can't wrap my head around these caps. I don't see any reason to put a hard cap on these stats when they are completely controlled by the gear that is introduced into the game. The whole premise of this stat cap seems like the easy/lazy way out and also the most detrimental to all classes.

Bloodguts
10-21-2015, 04:36 AM
Although i'm on the fence about these hard caps. <br /> <br />I will give the benefit of the doubt to Caith that he knows what he's doing and will wait until i can get my geared out Ranger over to Beta and test this new system properly then.<br /> <br />But what i do know is that eventually everyone will reach that cap if not by this expansion then by the next one and then what will happen? raise the cap? Then what's the point of having a cap in the first place? to control stat choice on a universal level and removing the individual choice? This is the only part that i'm concerned with.<br /> <br />If this system works for this current expansion and helps Scout VS. Mage dps be balanced, then i'm all for this. I was hoping some new AAs would be implemented to bridge the gap closer between scout/mage dps, but this new Deity system just homogenizes everything and it doesn't really do anything to the current system in place for current Altar of Malice balancing.

Boli
10-21-2015, 04:51 AM
Caps should either be removed - or getting beyond the cap gives bonuses,<br /> <br />e.g.<br />over crit bonus perhaps gives bonus to crit chance / potency?<br />over weapon damage bonus base combat art boost?<br /> <br />even the most perfect tweaking you will end up with temps/procs going over the cap - you might as well offer a small bonus to casting them beyond the standard

Neiloch
10-21-2015, 05:02 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Daray"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Daray said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6268706#post-6268706" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content"><ul><li>You can control the availability and growth of certain attributes from the itemisation side too, without needing to resort to hard capping multipliers.</li><li>Probably other stuff I haven't thought of or thought through (like diminishing returns on wdb).</li></ul>Anywho, tl;dr, forcing hard caps in this manner (and on these attributes) probably isn't going to garner a whole lot of support. But time will tell.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>My first thought was prestige conversions for CB/WDB are about to eat it. I Wouldn't be surprised if full time right side is in my rangers future.<br /> <br />I'd have to say using itemization would have been a better way to go. I would hope they are going to show up on items less anyway, given the caps. If that's the case i would think we could avoid the caps entirely so to make sure any 'growth' via class mechanics is not wasted for stats that were previously built/used based on having no curve or cap.<br /> <br />My only other thought is this is another 'step' into essentially getting rid of CB and WDB and moving players towards more ability damage instead of doing it all at once.

Bloodguts
10-21-2015, 05:33 AM
It should be TOP PRIORITY for the developers to give the players the freedom to choose what they want to gear as, even if it's a bad choice like gearing for Multi Attack <img src="/images/smilies/tongue.gif" alt="Tongue" /><br /> <br />With that stated, class balancing is the biggest culprit of why this is happening in the first place. Class balancing, and all the people that whined about passives vs. actives (myself included).<br /> <br />There are people who still enjoy playing a passive playstyle, and that is fine. But it should not trump playing actively, that's for sure, but the choice to play whichever way a player wants and how it benefits their class the most should still be in game.<br /> <br />I'll happily test this system on the 26 when we're actively testing content with our geared toons from live and give proper feedback then.

Thand
10-21-2015, 06:20 AM
my heroic Ranger and dirge can on live already way exceed the new wdb cap using temp and clicks. Well atleast we know how they are going to nerf melee <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" /> with the wdb and CB caps

Nkito
10-21-2015, 01:53 PM
Agree with all of the opinions stated here, that this is probably to simplify the mage vs scout disparities, that capping autoattack while raid lag is still a hindrance will frustrate, that balance through itemization is hopefully the long term goal here and I will wait to see this new itemization before getting too concerned.<br /><br />But my initial reaction is not so much frustration as just disheartening. Over the years we've seen numerous stat consolidations and even in aom I found myself fully geared and adorned, sitting at the reforger at all the soft and/or hardcaps realizing the only freedom i had left in the pursuit of optimization was cb/pot/wdb.<br /><br />Now there seems to be no choices left. On first appearances this shapes up to be all dps classes spec'ing the same, regardless if mage or scout we all sit at the caps and try to max potency? CB and wdb really need to at least have overcap conversions or diminishing returns to keep any amount of interest in how you build your character.

Cleitus
10-21-2015, 04:48 PM
Please don't add more stat caps. It's already kind of absurd that in AoM as a dirge I can hard or soft cap almost every stat available and now you just added 2 more to the list for ToT. I'll also wait to see itemization but it's looking like driving up potency will be the only meaningful way to grow character which as a dirge is pretty disheartening and sounds boring for all.

Lare
10-21-2015, 09:30 PM
Do they realise they are breaking some classes while other classes are just going to get better and take advantage of the gear increases.<br /> <br />This is a blanket lazy try to fix all the issues rather than deal with the issues of each class. Its going to do more damage that any good. <br /> <br />Don't they understand how this is going to unbalance so many classes its not funny?

Dreadtalon
10-21-2015, 10:12 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Neiloch"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Neiloch said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6268800#post-6268800" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">My first thought was prestige conversions for CB/WDB are about to eat it. I Wouldn't be surprised if full time right side is in my rangers future.<br /> <br />I'd have to say using itemization would have been a better way to go. I would hope they are going to show up on items less anyway, given the caps. If that's the case i would think we could avoid the caps entirely so to make sure any 'growth' via class mechanics is not wasted for stats that were previously built/used based on having no curve or cap.<br /> <br /><span style="text-decoration: underline">My only other thought is this is another 'step' into essentially getting rid of CB and WDB and moving players towards more ability damage instead of doing it all at once.</span></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Quote underlined for emphasis,<br /> <br />I agree, and think it's obvious that they are doing just that by the gear they've recently introduced (see RC Belt, Fabled Cloak) into the game. We'll see more powerful and differing versions of: "Increases final ability damage by xxx %". This coupled with the high potency pools we already have experienced - and are now seeing in Beta - along with across the board CA increases will make Ability Modifier the new king reforge stat <i>for all classes</i>.<br /> <br />Dreadtalon, a Freetard of Freeport

Mark John
10-22-2015, 02:16 AM
It is not clear how gear and item management can proceed given these caps. For example if players have Hand of Thule or Salvo charm, etc., the value of these are all minimized if you are raiding at or above the stat caps. Once the stat cap parade continues, what is the purpose of any new gear if all your stats are capped?.<br /> <br />The only items that will then have value will be those that independently proc damage (or some other action of raid-level value) and do not add CB. Most WDB proc gear will become useless and need to be replaced by ... almost anything?<br /> <br />Is new gear going to have Potency only or is that just going to be a 'wasted stat' for raiders at the cap?<br /> <br />So if I get a new scout chest for example: <br /> <br />Capped DPS: so don't waste my time giving me more DPS<br />Capped Haste and Flurry: So don't give me any more Attack Speed.<br />Capped Multi: same.<br />Capped CB/WDB.<br /> <br />So are you telling me the only stats I should bother to look at are AGI, STA, POT, maybe Mit??

Bloodguts
10-22-2015, 08:54 AM
Instead of stat hard caps, they should just lower the rate at which we upgrade our stats from gear, keep allowing stat choice individualization per class/player, and implement Final Ability Bonus to all gear as a means to increase the numbers on our parses.<br /> <br />Homogenizing every class via hard caps just makes this game bland and boring when everyone will eventually wear the same stat allocation on each of their characters. If that happens, then there's no point in making a bajillion pieces of armor/jewelry for each armor type. <br /> <br />Finding what works best for your character and your personal play style is what makes this game fun for some people, and even more for those who enjoy min/maxing. If a passive playstyle is more to your liking, that should definitely remain a choice, but it should not trump over those who choose to play an Active playstyle with their characters.

Foretold
10-22-2015, 08:58 AM
Why cap CB and not POT as well? Is your goal to stagnate the warlocks while letting the rest of the mages' damage continue to scale with their gear upgrades?<br /> <br />I know there are issues with scout autoattacks, but capping CB is not the answer. With the FC "changes" you're basically serving a double whammy to warlocks.<br /> <br />Cap = bad.

Daeth
10-22-2015, 03:59 PM
I think it is definitely time to do a stat squish. Reforging one stat to another was great as a novelty when stats were lower, but now it is just ridiculous. There should be more focus on interesting procs etc than balancing a spread sheet of hard caps.

Bloodguts
10-22-2015, 04:21 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Daeth"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Daeth said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6270005#post-6270005" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I think it is definitely time to do a stat squish. Reforging one stat to another was great as a novelty when stats were lower, but now it is just ridiculous. There should be more focus on interesting procs etc than balancing a spread sheet of hard caps.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Agreed.<br /> <br />By this logic, we will eventually get into the billions of damage per hit. Who knows how long the system will be able to compute those numbers per millisecond before the servers explode!!!

Daivid
10-22-2015, 04:30 PM
I won't pretend to understand all the math behind these caps and how it will affect melee classes but I would be curious to know if this means Fighter dps will go down or mostly remain unchanged?

Boli
10-22-2015, 04:37 PM
given most fighters can't reach the caps (WDB and Mitigation are on mutually exclusive pieces) I expect a slight relative increase (from 15% bonus to damage abilities) but nothgin to shout home about.

Genghes
10-22-2015, 05:16 PM
The 15% bump might increase a fighters parse by 5% and that might be to generous. These changes and hard caps shouldn't affect fighter dps in a negative way

Enoa
10-23-2015, 01:13 AM
Hard to have an opinion without seeing itemization nor being able to /beta copy yet. The few broken quests i did with solo gear with a beta buffed noob it was hard to see more than a few pieces of introduction gear. <br /> <br />I was expecting to see expansion of the legendary/fabled/mythical crit system introduced in AOM and suggested by items that gave a "xx increase in beneficial spell legendary, fabled, mythical critical hit". <br /> <br />I would like to see this system expanded and improved. Since the term critical hit really has lost all meaning prior to this new system. If this system was to be expanded the 'old' critical system with CB etc would have to cap realistically i would think. In the absence of a meaningful % chance to crit CB is really just potency+ for most calculations.

Errrorr
10-23-2015, 11:21 AM
I can understand the idea here, but it also needs to be paired equally with itemisation favouring Potency over CB, so people aren't reaching CB caps.<br /> <br />WDB has been pretty out of line in AoM, let's face it, it needed something changing. However that also needed to be paired with changes to classes who relied on WDB.<br /> <br />The LiveStream said there was going to be changes to Bards to make them more utility based, and If those are still due, it's too early to call the WDB cap an issue yet.<br /> <br />As for the CB Cap, If we start seeing itemisation give less favour to CB procs/effects, we shouldn't see much issue with the cap. I do think though that it should be that if you go over 3000CB, every 1% over gets converted to 0.5% Potency though. <br /> <br />It is too early in Beta to start throwing toys out the pram on changes (See Warlocks), so stick to constructive feedback and it might work out.

Nkito
10-23-2015, 02:09 PM
wdb was out hand, but sometimes so is lag, it was a good stat to mitigate this. itemization is, and hopefully always will be, the determining factor and you're exactly right these are all moot points if we are not able to efficiently reach these caps anyway.<br /><br />But i do think a soft cap, or over cap conversion, would work 10x better (at least on cb). As others have said players will always choose to optimize their build against soft caps but their efforts won't be completely wasted should they temporarily exceed these caps. It would still achieve the goals of shifting ca/autoattack ratio and allow more time for itemization and other changes to be implemented as they see fit.

Trakanom
10-23-2015, 04:24 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6270540#post-6270540" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I do think though that it should be that if you go over 3000CB, every 1% over gets converted to 0.5% Potency though.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I agree. I think that hardcapping such a volatile stat would just be a huge pain to calculate what, if any, to reforge out of. It should dynamically convert unless almost all large cb temps are going away.

Lare
10-24-2015, 12:01 AM
I think this is just a lazy solution rather than deal with each class individually.

Treson
10-24-2015, 09:39 AM
As a dirge I would be disappointed to see the WDB hardcap at 300. In group/raid I sit at ~320-330WDB and with my clickies and other effects hit around 500-600 while charging for my VC. I'm not the best equipped dirge out there and can imagine that many have far more WDB than me that is going to go even further to waste.<br /> <br />I see DBG saying that they want Bards to be more utility based and thats why we got the crappy end of the stick when it came to the scout re-balance, Our CA's do the least amount of damage than any other scout and now our way to mitigate this is being capped.<br /> <br />I would convert excess WDB/SWD into Final Ability Damage at a rate of 2:1. This would give all classes with high WDB/SWD a reason to click more buttons, which is what I thought the whole point of the scout revamp was in the first place. Not to actively reduce the dps done by weapons and VC.<br /> <br />What is the point of this change?<br /> <br />How about actually making Bards buffs give real utility rather than the pathetic passive buffs we have at the moment. I have 2 hotbars of buffs which rarely get changed unless I tank something. The amounts on these buffs have scaled poorly every level cap increase. Give us more active temps to cast for the group to augment healing or defence other than the useless AA choices that so few of us take due to their crapness.<br /> <br />Half my dps for all I care just give me something to do!

Anunnaki
10-24-2015, 11:50 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Treson"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Treson said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271127#post-6271127" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I would convert excess WDB/SWD into Final Ability Damage at a rate of 2:1. This would give all classes with high WDB/SWD a reason to click more buttons, which is what I thought the whole point of the scout revamp was in the first place. Not to actively reduce the dps done by weapons and VC.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />That would be so incredibly OP its not even funny.

Foretold
10-25-2015, 02:08 AM
So what happens if I get to 3000 CB? Can I just take focused casting off my hotbar? This is a legitimate question... because I would have to limit my CB to 2000 so that focused casting would actually work at the full 50%... Or I can get CB to 3000 and have the same effect without having to use focused casting...<br /> <br />Capping CB nullifies pert near the whole spell. I still get a 25% potency increase... and that is all.<br /> <br />I'm presuming of course that I can get to this cap... I"m sitting at 1200 CB right now in 4 pieces of quest gear with no temps or procs running, so I think, yeah, hitting 3000 is doable.<br /> <br />I can handle the focused casting changes. I can't handle this cap. The two can't coexist.

Foretold
10-25-2015, 02:10 AM
... double post

Vainamoinen
10-25-2015, 08:50 AM
I expect that my troub will be rewarded with A LOT more utility in light of these caps. As it stands now, my DPS is far more valuable to a raid than my utility. This is a big blow to bards, imo.

Treson
10-25-2015, 02:38 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Anunnaki"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Anunnaki said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271353#post-6271353" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">That would be so incredibly OP its not even funny.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />What would you suggest? And how would it be too OP? Why would anyone spec for Requiem after this hardcap? Do you think the reforge conversion for this stat is acceptable?<br /> <br />I'm not having a go at you its just you didn't offer anything constructive while I offered several points that the devs could address to fix the issue.<br /> <br />Regards<br />Treson

Raenius
10-25-2015, 02:38 PM
Just wanted to point it out that my char (Paladin) is at 300pot hardcapped on beta.<br /> <br />Guess someone broke something...

Trakanom
10-25-2015, 05:29 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Raenius"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Raenius said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271517#post-6271517" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Just wanted to point it out that my char (Paladin) is at 300pot hardcapped on beta.<br /> <br />Guess someone broke something...</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Spec out of weapon of the mind/Vitality to Strength in prestige2.

Raenius
10-25-2015, 05:38 PM
True - fixed it now - cheers!

Mermut
10-26-2015, 12:35 AM
Pretty much every temp buff that awards crit bonus or weapon damage bonus is now dead or on life support. This reduces the utility/buffage of a large number of classes and it will only get worse as time goes on unless the cap is changed and/or the buffs are changed.

Dedith
10-26-2015, 12:04 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Lare"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Lare said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6270960#post-6270960" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I think this is just a lazy solution rather than deal with each class individually.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />You do realize that there are at least 2x more classes to deal with than there are EQ2 devs working at DB..?

Jakaan
10-26-2015, 12:29 PM
Because this is such a hot item, it would be nice if a Dev could at least chime in on the discussion and provide some detail on the rationale behind these changes. Instead though, we are left with an information gap which causes us to theorize for ourselves and become more frustrated. <br /> <br /><b>Dev's:</b> Let us know the rationale so that we can help you test it in beta. The more information we have, the better the feedback we can provide.

Nkito
10-26-2015, 02:20 PM
I know the furthering of speculation in this thread doesn't help but these caps do seem to address the issues that have been mentioned. FC and passive dmg by way of autoattack have been complained about for a long time. With such a wide range of builds available to each class this simplification of stats will make future balancing of dps tiers easier. When most caps are known it can be influenced by potency and ability dmg modifiers alone.<br /><br />The thing is, these dps tiers will still be pursued by devs so in the end the sorc or pred that was outdps'ing your "t2" (by design) most likely will continue to do so. How they accomplish their parses will shift toward ability dmg but the design goal says they will accomplish it nonetheless. Only difference now is you will have less flexibility in finding a way to overcome their inherit dps advantage.

Mandoblast
10-26-2015, 03:15 PM
I understand the need to keep stats from making some classes too powerful but stat inflation started with ToV and continued with AoM. My problem with the hard cap of CB from the warlock perspective is that the class has effectively been capped in AoM and will not benefit in ToT and beyond. Yes, there are other stats that "might" make a bit of an increase in DPS for the class but for all intents and purposes the Warlock class is now static for growth. If there was going to be a CB hard cap, make it a cap that will be reached by the end of ToT or beyond. Many raiding warlocks are already at the CB cap in AoM.<br /> <br />I just do not understand the reasoning behind this hard cap since we are already there.

Lare
10-27-2015, 02:53 AM
You guys just keep repeating the same mistakes for all the huge effort you guys have done with a great server transfers to the new server you follow it up with what most people will see as unpopular nerf to the DPS in general.<br /> <br /> <br />This path is a failed path that lost so many players over and over again due to changes from the nerfing of the avatar gear to and their procs and how procs work with crits to all the other changes that really upset so many players that just walked away never commenting.<br /> <br />work out a better way to change how scouts dps via Ca's and not just auto attack.

Yards
10-27-2015, 03:09 AM
In beta it seems that scouts dps has gone way up where as the t1 mage dps has gone down and cannot compete.

Koko
10-27-2015, 03:39 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Jakaan"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Jakaan said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271902#post-6271902" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Because this is such a hot item, it would be nice if a Dev could at least chime in on the discussion and provide some detail on the rationale behind these changes. Instead though, we are left with an information gap which causes us to theorize for ourselves and become more frustrated.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>My best guess without playing beta;<br /> <br /><b>End Game Items Were Too Powerful</b><br />At the high end, we're shifting from an exponential curve to a linear one, i.e. (CB+x)(Pot+X)->(CB)(Pot+X). This translates to high end encounters being more skill, rather than item, based as player HPS/DPS is not-as-drastically shifted by a few pieces of gear.<br /> <br /><b>Early-Mid Game Items Were Just Right</b><br />The CB cap allows an exponential function early-mid game, which translates to a single item drastically increasing a player's power. This allows players to "get excited" about individual pieces before the end game, where players tend to get upset about itemization gates (i.e. can't beat this encounter because we don't have the items). This is supported by many previously "raid type" effects, e.g. aspect of granite, dropping off overland named encounters - they're attempting to lower the barrier-of-entry.<br /> <br /><b>Botting Raids Was too Common</b><br />Bots tend to suck at coordinating bursts. Hitting "AFK damage" by targeting crit/WD bonus will make it more difficult to automate encounters by artificially increasing encounter duration through targeted itemization.<br /> <br /><b>Bottom Line</b><br />These changes suggest that early/mid game players will show improvement very quickly and feel a sense of "progression". They will get excited about numbers increasing, feel that they are making progress, and in general feel great about playing the game. Developers will have greater design space for end game players as a linear curve indicates encounters are not as easily trivialized by itemization, and won't have to rely as much on script-based failure conditions.

Nkito
10-27-2015, 05:33 AM
That sounds accurate, I just don't understand introducing caps we're already hitting in aom gear and simultaneously rolling out xpac items with significantly more cb than we're already wearing. Assuming raid drops will maintain a similar superiority over solo drops. But if things are being condensed like you suggest and raid drops are only slightly higher dps i guess we'll see a time where raid gear alone won't necessarily put you at the top.<br /><br />I like the sound of that at first, but also know I will not chase insignificant upgrades.

Naga
10-27-2015, 07:54 AM
Capping CB at 3k, just makes CB worthless in the long run, We will all reach the cap eventually, gear / stat inflation will therefore render one pathway obsolete for character improvement.<br /> <br />I understand why you are doing this, auto attack and warlocks have benefited hugely from an unlimited CB.<br /> <br />However this is the nuclear option. In trying to fix the CB issue, you are doing a lot of collateral damage. Just look at the prestige choices that were added in this xpac, most of them are now or will be obsolete. Temps of every kind, AA's all need to be adjusted to reflect this new barrier to advancement.<br /> <br />The point i am trying to make is that, we have so very few pathways for improvement, and now you are taking away more then just cb, this change effects many prestige and AA's choices.<br /> <br />Cap it, make it redundant, and eventually get rid of it, This has the stench of the stats consolidation you did a few years ago, even kander recognizes it was a mistake to merge the 5 old stats into two.<br /> <br />I'm scared, you don't see it, and you don't seam to learn from past mistakes, I'm afraid you'll do more damage then good whit this change,

Dreadtalon
10-27-2015, 08:35 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Naga"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Naga said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272390#post-6272390" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">(Stuff) Cap it, make it redundant, and eventually get rid of it, This has the stench of the stats consolidation you did a few years ago, even kander recognizes it was a mistake to merge the 5 old stats into two.<br /> <br />I'm scared, you don't see it, and you don't seam to learn from past mistakes, I'm afraid you'll do more damage then good whit this change,</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run the way I see it, but only if they do <i>pay attention to detail in regards to individual Class AA's and CA's</i>, i.e. It does allow them to eventually do away with CB entirely and buff / play with individual AA's and CA's using less modifiers - it simplifies the math a little, allowing them to more easily buff individual classes.<br /> <br />I like that idea.<br /> <br />The game as we know it basically stays the same, but pressing buttons means a lot more. It will / could bring more class definition.<br /> <br />I can see this coming into play when buffing bards, or utility classes especially. The timing of CA's could become a lot more important for everyone.<br /> <br />And like Koko said in smarty-pants language; it leads to big fun math-y numbers that are exciting to all play styles.<br /> <br />I think it could be really fun, if done correctly. I mean, here's hoping, right?<br /> <br />Dreadtalon, a Freetard of Freeport

Esakker
10-29-2015, 01:03 PM
Silly question, all the caps being talked about where do I find them would like to better understand the thread.

Mermut
11-01-2015, 06:06 AM
The crit bonus conversion hurts every class with temp crit bonus buffs, prestige conversions that go to or from crit bonus.. etc.. It makes a huge number of class abilities obsolete. If you're set on keeping the cap, a bunch of classes' abilities, prestige abilities, AA, etc need to be reworked.

Amaitae
11-02-2015, 10:55 AM
<b>so whatever the reasons might be, in the case they are not going away I suggest that all excess cb will be added 1:1 to potency to compensate those classes which would be penalized by the new cap.</b>

Bloodguts
11-02-2015, 08:01 PM
Not sure if it was already mentioned, but putting these caps will make some abilities completely obsolete as well.<br /> <br />Having to choose between gearing up your character up to the cap will make abilities like Predator's Final Trick or Focused Casting completely useless, because you will no longer get the benefit of those abilities for CB. But if you choose to not cap your CB to 3,000, then you're essentially nerfing yourself because you're lowering the dps capabilities of ALL your abilities and not just the ones you use for your burst when FC or PFT are used.<br /> <br />I really really hope this CB/WDB cap gets reconsidered, for the sake of this game's longevity.

Jrel
11-13-2015, 05:15 AM
This WDB cap is just too much. Our bards are parsing terribly now. 2/3, if that, of our chanters. The cap should be removed from all bards at least, and just have different diminishing returns after some point for other classes. If not removing the WDB cap from our bards, then boost their CA damage even more to compensate.

Doomey
11-13-2015, 05:22 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Jrel"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Jrel said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6282961#post-6282961" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">This WDB cap is just too much. Our bards are parsing terribly now. 2/3, if that, of our chanters. The cap should be removed from all our bards at least, and just have different diminishing returns after some point for other classes. If not removing the WDB cap from our bards, then boost their CA damage even more to compensate.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>+1 <br />really not having any fun at all anymore on the dirge. the wdb changes were a terrible attempt at balancing that ended up pushing t1 scouts ahead of everyone and bards / melee priests are left to reforge / re gear for more potency. Yay. potency. my spells now do 7 more damage. Just a sandbag buffbot now.

-Soteria-
11-13-2015, 07:01 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Jrel"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Jrel said: </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">This WDB cap is just too much. Our bards are parsing terribly now. 2/3, if that, of our chanters. The cap should be removed from all bards at least, and just have different diminishing returns after some point for other classes. If not removing the WDB cap from our bards, then boost their CA damage even more to compensate.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Doomey"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Doomey said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6282962#post-6282962" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">+1<br />really not having any fun at all anymore on the dirge. the wdb changes were a terrible attempt at balancing that ended up pushing t1 scouts ahead of everyone and bards / melee priests are left to reforge / re gear for more potency. Yay. potency. my spells now do 7 more damage. Just a sandbag buffbot now.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>++1<br />Melee priests & bards, my two favorite things, are saaaaad pandas. Seems like... with complete control of itemization... it would be possible to reign in certain stats without throwing in hard caps that wreak havoc on class balance, especially for classes that provide group or self temp buffs for those stats... as so many others have already said.

Anfis
11-13-2015, 03:22 PM
please remove the WDB cap from bards and preists....my bard is sad! it takes 1 temp or my jewlery procing and im at cap in seconds...

Allsor
11-13-2015, 03:28 PM
Bump. Please remove the WDB cap from Bards and Priests

Foretold
11-13-2015, 04:35 PM
Remove the caps altogether and figure out a better way to accomplish what you're trying to achieve.

Nkito
11-13-2015, 04:52 PM
Keep caps consistent across all classes, whether they are removed completely, left in place, or softened.<br /><br />They're trying to get a grip on class balance, and while not ideal I can understand their simpler approach by focusing on ca dmg tweaking. It's not the most fun way but if i had to choose between class imbalances xpac after xpac due to the number of variables, or this, I would choose this.<br /><br />I don't see how wdb would make a class more fun, as long as the loss of dps from this cap is compensated for in some way.<br /><br />I do still very much dislike hard caps though, especially cb.

Germs
11-13-2015, 05:04 PM
+1 Either remove WDB caps for melee priests/bards or give us class/archetype weapons with huge base damage to compensate.

Marq
11-13-2015, 05:16 PM
Agree hard caps are bad overall, but when ppl post over and over asking for their auto afk damage restored (be it wdb or harder hit weaps) it just make the change look even more needed. If ppl dont even want CAs/spells raised up but would just want to return to what they've done last couple years. Its just lazy to request removing caps based on that.<br /> <br />They could've done it better tho, but whether you like it or not. Things that lower your auto damage are coming to stay im afraid. I'd honestly be happy we get to keep even that much, cause nothing would've stopped them removing wdb totally or just lowering the class base ratios so much that 800wdb would account for half damage on live currently.<br /> <br />Sure its not our fault we have tools to do what we do atm, esp wdb and flurry went up and up with ToV and AoM really made it silly (no matter how you look, it prolly wasnt a good call on their end to give it out as abundant)

Germs
11-13-2015, 05:49 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Marq"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Marq said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6283103#post-6283103" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Agree hard caps are bad overall, but when ppl post over and over asking for their auto afk damage restored (be it wdb or harder hit weaps) it just make the change look even more needed. If ppl dont even want CAs/spells raised up but would just want to return to what they've done last couple years. Its just lazy to request removing caps based on that.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>What I really want for priests is for our CAs to be boosted and our AAs to be reworked. But that's not realistic for a game this old with limited developers. So I'll settle for WDB cap removal or harder hitting weapons to counteract the indirect nerfs to melee priests.

Yards
11-13-2015, 05:59 PM
The stat caps should be removed and the dev's should just wake up and do their jobs with putting the appropriate stats on gear. There is always a stat cap that is based on what stats are available on the gear we are able to obtain through dev's itemization. This attempt to over simplify the stats by putting caps on key stats tells me they are incapable of appropriate itemization and just decided to put a cap on things to make their job easier. In the end these caps will just ruin the game but that may be their intention as they are probably just bored with eq2.

Arco
11-13-2015, 06:01 PM
If healer damage directly determines how good their heals/wards are... then yes, those healers need their damage output looked at/balanced... otherwise I'd rather them focus on bringing other healers in line for raid healing so guilds aren't focusing on just using 4 shamans.<br /><br />Inq is hurting the most, and fixing dmg output won't help them get a raid spot.

Doomey
11-13-2015, 07:29 PM
Lots of people are saying get used to not having crazy wdb or relying on that. The problem is these changes were not balanced at all. Rangers and assassin's who for a while now have not been reliant on auto attack got the scout % increase to their already high dmg abilities. Bards got the same % damage bonus but our wdb is cut in half or even 1/4 of what it used to be. The % damage increase on bard cas Is laughable. Even if all bard spells and cas were doubled across the board they still wouldn't be in good shape. They need to remove cap of wdb or find another way to balance bards. It is super disappointing that my character with better gear AND beta buffs significantly underperformed my current live character. What is there to look forward to? My BC buff that gives already powerful assassin's 600 or 700 potency? Joy.

Errrorr
11-14-2015, 12:34 PM
Imo Bards need a boost to their Base abilities, not just more final abil modifier/pot/cb.<br /> <br />Dirge skills boosted by 15-20% base would probably be a fair boost.<br />Troub skills boosted by 10-15% base.<br /> <br />Unfortunately this late in beta and with lack of Dev Time, I can't expect we will see much before Launch. Hopefully something can be looked at after though