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Caith
10-20-2015, 01:51 AM
In Terror's of Thalumbra, scouts have had a major ability power overhaul, increasing most damage, buffs and debuffs by approximately 30%.<br /> <br />Please post any scout specific questions, feedback or bugs here.

Jrel
10-20-2015, 11:03 PM
I'm impressed by the adjustments, but none of this will counteract <b>THE FACT</b> <b>that at top end raiding during combat raid lag, we need more WDB and CB for autoattacks</b> since the game will not allow me to use my full 3 CAs inbetween 2.4s autoattacks, or it won't allow me to press 2-3 CAs of my required 5-7 CAs during my Fatal Followup chain, when In Plain Sight or Concealment flat out quits during heavy raid lag.

Jrel
10-20-2015, 11:26 PM
The WDB to potency reforge rate is currently terrible. It should give an amount of potency at least equivalent to the amount of CB on an item. When I have roughly 2K CB and 2K pot with 100 WDB, 10 WDB is nearly equivalent to 31 pot for me. On the Bold Phantom Chain Helm, it has 30.9 CB and 10 WDB. 10 WDB is close to 31 pot for me. If you use the 78.9 DPS as an equivalent for 10 WDB, then the 10 WDB would be worth ~ 15-16 potency.

Rhapsodic1
10-20-2015, 11:26 PM
Well, that is a huge hit on dirges. Why do a cap on CB and WDB? A 30% increase to our CA's does not make up for the new cap on WDB. Dirge abilities don't hit for anything.<br /> <br />Also the reforging pools for going into potency are horrible.<br />38.7 CB reforges into 5.1 Potency<br />12.5 WDB reforges into 0.8 Potency<br /> <br />So even if you hit the caps of CB or WDB, reforging out of it gives you a minimal return of Potency.

Doomey
10-21-2015, 12:18 AM
i understand you guys wanted to make bards more supporty or whatever but i agree. the reforge values are laughable and it's just a straight up nerf to bards whose CA's and spells even with the increase still don't do very much damage.

Loran
10-21-2015, 01:43 AM
Eh, I haven't actually done any useful testing with assassin's so far, but the 30% is a bit underwhelming from what I've seen so far on them as well Doomey.

Ogdinmar
10-21-2015, 02:21 AM
is the assassin abilities in the beast lord knowledge book intended? if so or not what other things where part of the beast lords being brought up?

Dreadtalon
10-21-2015, 02:27 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Ogdinmar"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Ogdinmar said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6268723#post-6268723" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">is the assassin abilities in the beast lord knowledge book intended? if so or not what other things where part of the beast lords being brought up?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I was wondering where I got all those new CA's....<br />---<br />Also, <b>please</b> buff<i> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Beastlord Pets</span></i> to <i><span style="text-decoration: underline">Grandmaster</span></i> instead of Expert, so we have all our Primals to test with - not just the sucky ones. I realize it's only two days until we can /beta our toons over, but until then I'd love to not have to level all those warders again - even with buffed xp gain.<br /> <br />Thank you!<br /> <br />Dreadtalon, a Freetard of Freeport

Lyricus
10-21-2015, 03:24 AM
So I might be wrong, but I see almost no change to the Swashbuckler. There are still a butt load of temps, little change to their craptastic CA's, and no real reason to ever want one around for a raid.

Ruckus
10-21-2015, 03:59 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Lyricus"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Lyricus said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6268749#post-6268749" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">So I might be wrong, but I see almost no change to the Swashbuckler. There are still a butt load of temps, little change to their craptastic CA's, and no real reason to ever want one around for a raid.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Pretty much everything going as planned. I had zero hopes in them actually making this class raid-worthy.

Jokirr
10-21-2015, 04:06 AM
Yes please to the Grandmaster warders, would really help out for testing.

Ruckus
10-21-2015, 04:31 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6268028#post-6268028" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Please post any scout specific questions, feedback or bugs here.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>You guys got tons of suggestions about how to make swashbucklers raid-worthy (as well as beastlords) over the past year in these forums, yet people are seeing very little in regards to class improvements. <br /><br />Please go back and read the suggestions, and do something.

Jontom
10-21-2015, 02:58 PM
Troubadours rely on WDB because about 1/2 of their DPS is from auto. Also our spells hit harder than the few CAs we have so making CA more desirable for the other scouts is great but does nothing for the Troubadours. Need to ensure we get some love this expack.

Ruckus
10-21-2015, 03:36 PM
Go read this thread to see that the problems for the swashbuckler class are already cropping up on the TLE servers.<br /> <br /><a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/tle-playing-swashbuckler.564554/#post-6268895" class="internalLink">https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/tle-playing-swashbuckler.564554/#post-6268895</a><br /> <br />Right the wrong and give the swasbucklers (and beastlords) some love. We've been ignored far too long.

Uncle
10-21-2015, 05:01 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6268028#post-6268028" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">In Terror's of Thalumbra, scouts have had a major ability power overhaul, increasing most damage, buffs and debuffs by approximately 30%.<br /> <br />Please post any scout specific questions, feedback or bugs here.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>i had a chance to start spot checking my brigand ca's today and most seem to be decent boosts that. but overall the cb cap gonna hinder these boost as players start to get endgame gear

Loran
10-22-2015, 07:23 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Jontom"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Jontom said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6268942#post-6268942" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Troubadours rely on WDB because about 1/2 of their DPS is from auto. Also our spells hit harder than the few CAs we have so making CA more desirable for the other scouts is great but does nothing for the Troubadours. Need to ensure we get some love this expack.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Please note that the OP mentioned ability damage and not combat art damage...

Awesomeo
10-23-2015, 04:34 PM
Wonder if they're going to mess with all the huge passive damage poisons are giving atm?

Bloodguts
10-23-2015, 05:07 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Awesomeo"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Awesomeo said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6270659#post-6270659" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Wonder if they're going to mess with all the huge passive damage poisons are giving atm?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />According to Gninja, poison damage will still remain a big chunk of our DPS.

Nkito
10-23-2015, 05:13 PM
I haven't been seeing huge poison damage lately myself, 8-14% of my parse which is still sizeable but it's down quite a bit from where it was early aom.

Meirril
10-23-2015, 10:55 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Nkito"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Nkito said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6270686#post-6270686" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I haven't been seeing huge poison damage lately myself, 8-14% of my parse which is still sizeable but it's down quite a bit from where it was early aom.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>There isn't enough analysis to give any meaning to this statement. If other aspects of your class' damage are increasing and poison is staying the same then naturally the percentage of damage poison accounts for should go down. Or the actual poison damage is decreasing and something is wrong. Either way you haven't made any sort of attempt to analyze your parse and make an argument based on that.<br /> <br />Look at your current parse, compare it with your parse from live, then give a more detailed explanation of what you think is going on and how it can be improved. Details make for a convincing argument. Vague notions lack impact.<br /> <br />edit: oh, and mention your class.

Nisshki
10-24-2015, 12:53 AM
Kinda hope they let poison damage slowly go down. As a Beastlord it's pretty sad to lose to a Ranger or Assassin just because of poisons literally and the t2 bragging about aoe fights (Swashies mainly) just because of poisons. Not to mention Beastlords are the ONLY scout dps class to not get a self mimic... really? Every other t1/t2 got a form of self mimic they could use during a good chain, Beastlords got a 5% base boost to pot and cb, lmao. I can still top parses above through serious luck based off CB hits because of the restrictions as a Beastlord toward mainly passive extra damage every other chain DPS have. The only sad thing is I can only top my damage off at an average of 80mil because I don't have the extra random high hitters from a shadow or poison. The new CB cap is going to hurt since I personally relied on it a lot so I could keep up. Would really love to see some Beastlord changes come up. One of the more major ones being hate control since we are the only DPS scout yet again without it and topping the damage parse at around 60mil per single target fight hurts because it's torture for the tanks and me since I have to stop mid fight to let my threat go down. The only reason I can even be in a raid guild of any sort (not high end because ofc they don't want a BL) is because of my damage output. The whole new thing about potency does not help whatsoever when I can personally spike to about 3k already because of all the potency stuff we get from aa's, jewelry, and our 3 base potency increases(5%,20%,25%) and additional bonuses from other classes.

Ruckus
10-24-2015, 02:05 AM
I've pretty much switched from being an AoE class wearing ab mod gear to wearing WDB for fights that have 1-4 mobs on every fight. The only benefit for being a traditional AoE class that swashbucklers get is to help clear trash in raid zones faster...oh boy look I DPSed a lot on trash, but that really isn't that big of a challenge. It takes no skill to faceroll 5 blue AoE buttons. <br /><br />Nearly every fight over the past few expansions has been single target, or single target with a few adds that come running in to get burned down fast, then back to DPSing on the boss.<br /><br />Once again, the requests to make swashbucklers raid-worthy for a spot on a raid roster has gone ignored.<br /><br />Poisons should be removed from the game. The combat art damage that scouts should get should be bumped up and aligned with mages. If that can't be done, then bump up our combat art damage to be on par with mage spell damage and then make a new sort of item that only mages can use...then they can pay for their DPS and debuffs like the 4 poison-using scouts.

Karsa
10-24-2015, 01:07 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Nisshki"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Nisshki said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6270984#post-6270984" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Kinda hope they let poison damage slowly go down. As a Beastlord it's pretty sad to lose to a Ranger or Assassin just because of poisons literally and the t2 bragging about aoe fights (Swashies mainly) just because of poisons. Not to mention Beastlords are the ONLY scout dps class to not get a self mimic... really? Every other t1/t2 got a form of self mimic they could use during a good chain, Beastlords got a 5% base boost to pot and cb, lmao. I can still top parses above through serious luck based off CB hits because of the restrictions as a Beastlord toward mainly passive extra damage every other chain DPS have. The only sad thing is I can only top my damage off at an average of 80mil because I don't have the extra random high hitters from a shadow or poison. The new CB cap is going to hurt since I personally relied on it a lot so I could keep up. Would really love to see some Beastlord changes come up. One of the more major ones being hate control since we are the only DPS scout yet again without it and topping the damage parse at around 60mil per single target fight hurts because it's torture for the tanks and me since I have to stop mid fight to let my threat go down. The only reason I can even be in a raid guild of any sort (not high end because ofc they don't want a BL) is because of my damage output. The whole new thing about potency does not help whatsoever when I can personally spike to about 3k already because of all the potency stuff we get from aa's, jewelry, and our 3 base potency increases(5%,20%,25%) and additional bonuses from other classes.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><br />The current design goal is to bring them back to the forefront of Tier 1 DPS. <br />Cannot/will not say anymore.<br />Kander, Jun 10, 2015

Estarion
10-24-2015, 09:15 PM
They raised Feral Rending more than a twice. Hadn't tested it yet but tooltips promises a really big numbers. And they boosted pet HP. Dont know why, sharing resists is a much better idea. Healing up the pet after chest trap now takes much longer. If they add a ticking dots to encounters in the expansion like it was at named fights in contested Ossuary, there will be an issue.<br />But thats all.<br />All our suggestions seems to be ignored, there are some of them.<br /><ul><li>Draconic Breath must be 8 targets, beastlord is extremely lack of aoe dps. BL is the worst dps class on aoe fights without any doubts. Why? Only 2 high hitting blue aoes and one of them is semiuseful. Both blue primals do not proc Primal Assault, Truespirits Understanding/Feral Whirl and Feral Fangs even for one target. So what is the reason of Draconic Breath to hit only 4 targets?</li><li>And sure a boost of Feral Rending can't help us on aoe fight. There should be a blue advantage in the four slot. With or instead greens no matter. Green aoes? What is it? I have a capped sin, and brig betrayed from swash, none of them have ever hear about green aoes. More so how many encounters with a 4+ linked mobs? And with 8 linked mobs? At the same time sin have a Hemo which activates at all 8 linked or not targets from literally every first blue aoe that he cast. The same story with brig and swash, except their trigger rates a bit lower.</li><li>Chillbarrier. Come on guys. It was broken, it's still broken and it will be broken it seems. Hope not. Funny thing today in tooltips the value of Chillbarrier had increased almost twice, but in fact it's still nothing. There is a fight with 2 Far Seas guards in Phantom Sea, savagery lvl 6, spirituality lvl 3, btw expert pets is a very very very bad idea for beta test, you know?</li></ul><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Nipq1ud.jpg?1" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br /><ul><li>There is a non fight prebuff savagery lvl 3, spirituality lvl 0, 1.5k pot. 6432, oh my. Doubt the 6 lvl of spirituality and savagery would multiply it by 100+</li></ul><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Ea1cgQn.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" />

Jrel
10-25-2015, 09:43 PM
<b>Beastlord suggestions: </b>This is from a right-side prestige Feral-stance standpoint. Need a real top raiding BL to comment, but from what I can tell of my BL on beta, damage increase from primals still need to come up another 9%.<br /> <br />Savagery needs to be able to hit level 6 in 6-7.2 seconds to enable them to compete with current top-raiding T1 DPS. This could be accomplished through AAs or Advantage hits, or a combination of both. This is the time benchmark top raiding BLs need to be at, to be able to dps at their peak. Since, on live servers, it takes me about 18 seconds to hit Savagery 6 with Unchained Ferocity, warder Advantages, and Rallisk's Insight, this means the savagery gains from these abilities combined should be tripled, or adjusted somehow to allow BLs to hit 6 that fast.<br /> <br />Savagery 6 also needs to stay at level 6 through 7.2 seconds (if 6 primals are used inbetween 2.4s autos), and to be able to reach 6 again in another 22.8s (which should be easy if they burst to 6 in 7.2 seconds is done again). Primals are on a cycle of 30 seconds with 100% reuse.<br /> <br />Primals with pre-reqs of stealth need to have their damage increased with the stealh requirement removed, or Savagery 6 needs to last an additional 2.4 seconds to allow BLs to be able to use their stealth Primals while Savagery 6 is active. Primal Assault and Rallisk's Insight should have recast of 3 minutes.<br /> <br />BLs need T1 DPS-level hate transfer and better dehate tools and health debuffs to be useful in raid. Pure ranged fights should not disallow them from their full potential unless BLs are meant to be primarily melee-based damage.

Koko
10-25-2015, 10:28 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Jrel"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Jrel said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271682#post-6271682" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content"><b>B... </b>Need a real top raiding BL to comment, ...<br />...Savagery stuff... BLs need T1 DPS-level hate transfer and better dehate tools and health debuffs to be useful ...</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Savagery isn't, and has never been, the real problem. Feral Rampage stacks are the problem. It is lost on death, has an incredibly short rapidly decaying duration, and is "hard gated" at 30+ seconds before activation.<br /> <br />On any encounter with a duration exceeding 30 seconds, the beastlord needs to "lag" a primal to refresh the duration on Feral Rampage. This is typically noxious grasp cast at the start of the encounter approximately 10 seconds before the rest of the primal chain. Failure to "lag" a primal to refresh this buff is a <i>huge</i> damage loss. The existence of Feral Rampage, and the significance of the primal multiplier, in combination with feral intensity stacks is what makes the BL class a PITA to play.<br /> <br />but, as I said in another thread, they could deal double the damage of an assassin and still be useless in raid from a mathematical perspective. The utility simply isn't there, and right now the damage isn't either.

Jrel
10-26-2015, 12:07 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271698#post-6271698" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">.... Feral Rampage stacks are the problem. It is lost on death, has an incredibly short rapidly decaying duration, and is "hard gated" at 30+ seconds before activation.... .</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><span style="font-size: small">I forgot about Feral Rampage. It is similar to trying to get 12 stacks of the assassin's left-side prestige, Nightblade's Intensity. It would be great if they both were simply made an ability, 1 minute recast, but DB wants us to manage increments. On the BL side, the stack amount could be lessened by 1 or 2 (whatever it takes) to feasibly enable BLs to reach Feral Pain within 25 seconds. There is nothing more maddening than when an Advantage isn't available </span><span style="font-size: small">in-between</span><span style="font-size: small"> 2.4s autoattackss (which happens to me 33%+ of the time).</span>

Koko
10-26-2015, 01:13 AM
<span style="font-size: small"><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Jrel"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Jrel said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271737#post-6271737" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content"><span style="font-size: small">I forgot about Feral Rampage. It is similar to trying to get 12 stacks of the assassin's left-side prestige, Nightblade's Intensity. </span></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Feral Intensity is similar. Feral Rampage is completely different.</span><br /><span style="font-size: small"> </span><br /><span style="font-size: small">Microing Feral Rampage, Intensity, Savagery, and the pet is incredibly taxing. Add the new ethereals effects (which are less than favorable due to their dependence on transient buffs) and omniscience becomes required to play the class correctly.</span>

Estarion
10-26-2015, 01:52 AM
Savagery was and is the real big problem of beastlord. What I would like to see is reverse Savagery bar just like the channeller's one.<br />Savagery should raise to max between actions, not dissipates. And amount of savagery drain should be massively decreased.<br />When lagging, and you should know, raiding is always lagging more or less, there is hardly possible to keep savagery at lvl 4+ just to have a chance to cast the 6th slot primal and also 5th slot if you for some reason still use this 4 targets useless Draconic Breath. You have to use more and more additional advantages between primals to get savagery back to at least 5 and it breaks the rythm, buff window shifts more and more until once it gone out of range.<br />Feral Rampage should be reworked totally too. Hold an interval between primals for maintain the 6 lvl Feral Rampage? C'mon, this game is about temps.

Koko
10-26-2015, 03:34 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Estarion"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Estarion said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271767#post-6271767" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Hold an interval between primals for maintain the 6 lvl Feral Rampage? C'mon, this game is about temps.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Quick math lesson, <a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/slot-5-6-primal-damage-weirdness.550407/#post-6091913" class="internalLink">Xelgad's post for reference</a>.<br />tl;dr math:<br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">"hold" primal: 1 + 6*.1*2 + 6*.1*2 = 3.4x</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">"spam" primal: 1 + 6*.1*2 + 1/6 (0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)*.1*2 = 2.45x</div> <br />Neglecting ability mod shenanigans, if you "spam" you're missing 28% of your damage. Yes, noxious grasp isn't cast during "teh temps" but even if it did <i><b>zero</b></i> damage the "hold" method would be superior (5/6 = 83%, 2.45/3.4 = 72%, 83% > 72%).<br /> <br />However noxious grasp does non-zero damage when cast outside temps. The hold method isn't just better, it is <b><i>way</i></b> better.

Dreadtalon
10-26-2015, 03:36 AM
Savagery certainly is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><b>A</b></span> problem, but not necessarily one that, if fixed, would bring the Beastlord any closer to the forefront of T1 DPS. Even with current blanket changes to CA's, we're still not any closer to the *forefront*, especially when other scouts received the same blanket changes (plus or minus a few CA tweaks here and there) thereby negating any real boost to the BL class.<br /> <br />I mean, it's nice my parse has gone up several million DPS, but that's not even close to what is needed for this class to be desirable in a raid setting.<br /> <br />Adding even more DPS to one of the most Hate generating classes in game - and offering no tools to deal with a mobs increased attention - is just another nail in the coffin.<br /> <br />In addition to all of the usual BL's problems still being an issue, we have a new expansion that is littered with objects on the ground that further prevent ease of movement, making it even more difficult to find a mob's behind to keep spamming those Advantages for Savagery level 6, and as anyone that plays a BL knows, any Advantage or Primal that is worth it's salt has a Stealth and or Flanking requirement. (No, the new Neutral deity power will not help this, not at all).<br /> <br />I spend WAY too much time running around trying to find a mob's back to attack while pure casters just sit there and pew pew pew, sizzle, sizzle, sizzle, their way to the top of the parse - all while offering an excess of 100% to 1000% more useful and/or powerful utility over what a Beastlord can bring.<br /> <br />Since there have been no real meaningful changes to the Beastlord class for this expansion, it's looking more and more like we're going to get our *boost / fix* with the prestige items, which is the worst possible idea.<br /> <br />Dreadtalon, a Freetard of Freeport

Dreadtalon
10-26-2015, 04:09 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271792#post-6271792" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Quick math lesson, <a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/slot-5-6-primal-damage-weirdness.550407/#post-6091913" class="internalLink">Xelgad's post for reference</a>.<br />tl;dr math:<br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">"hold" primal: 1 + 6*.1*2 + 6*.1*2 = 3.4x</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">"spam" primal: 1 + 6*.1*2 + 1/6 (0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)*.1*2 = 2.45x</div> <br />Neglecting ability mod shenanigans, "spam" is you're missing 28% of your damage. Yes, noxious grasp isn't cast during "teh temps" but even if it did <i><b>zero</b></i> damage the "hold" method would be superior (5/6 = 83%, and that is assuming noxious grasp does equal damage to the other primals...which it does not).</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>---<br />It's too bad that we can see the math. By this, I mean the Beastlord has been so neglected for so long, they've basically *forced* us into the Spam method of DPS.<br /> <br />Bee-cuz:<br /> <br />Timing stacks of Feral intes. / Feral Ramp / Savagery lvl 6, along with mob movement + mob detriments (i.e: Stun, Stifle, Knockback, or just a plain ol' case of "Hey, I'm going to become unattackable for 15 seconds to deliver some pointless dialogue in the heat of battle), and/or ranged fights (which may, or may not allow a BL to run in, do a Primal Chain, and run back out) has made it impossible to keep a "hold" Primal pattern going - which again pushes the Beastlord further down the parse spiral.<br /> <br />Dreadtalon, a Freetard of Freeport

Koko
10-26-2015, 04:51 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Dreadtalon"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Dreadtalon said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271803#post-6271803" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Timing stacks of Feral intes. / Feral Ramp / Savagery lvl 6, along with mob movement + mob detriments ... which again pushes the Beastlord further down the parse spiral.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> I'll concede incredibly difficult/unreasonable, but not impossible in most encounters. e.g. Quorox (sp?) is incredibly difficult and I wouldn't expect players to be able to do it, the first fight in RoM is impossible (with expected RNG).<br /> <br />(This expansion's...) "nail in the coffin" to the BL class is the addition of ethereals.<br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">It is way easier//possible to routinely cast FFU during a bow ethereal/2x damage procs</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">Shadow reset is stupid</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">Resets don't restore savagery (does it even reset primals for this to matter? does anyone care?)</div> <br />tl;dr Beastlords are bad. This expansion they got worse. No one is surprised.

Karsa
10-26-2015, 12:57 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271818#post-6271818" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I'll concede incredibly difficult/unreasonable, but not impossible in most encounters. e.g. Quorox (sp?) is incredibly difficult and I wouldn't expect players to be able to do it, the first fight in RoM is impossible (with expected RNG).<br /> <br />(This expansion's...) "nail in the coffin" to the BL class is the addition of ethereals.<br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">It is way easier//possible to routinely cast FFU during a bow ethereal/2x damage procs</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">Shadow reset is stupid</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">Resets don't restore savagery (does it even reset primals for this to matter? does anyone care?)</div> <br />tl;dr Beastlords are bad. This expansion they got worse. No one is surprised.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Hope to finally get onto beta this week but if any of that ^^^^^ is true gonna be real sad. I would hope that in the 'quest' to fix beastlords that ethereal effects are taken into account also with increase to potency and other stats that 'hemotoxin damage' will increase as well. Hemotoxin and shadow (reset) will present a huge amount damage that the 'fix' will need to overcome. If it's not possible to give beastlords 'a shadow' or 'a rampage of swarm pets like undead horde' then increasing the 5% base to help make up the differential maybe strongly needed.

Errrorr
10-26-2015, 10:39 PM
When are we likely to see Utility classes (Bards) given the Utility that was mentioned in the previous stream?<br /> <br />As it stands, bards are in for a pretty heavy nerf this expansion, and definitely need something to counteract that.

Trakanom
10-27-2015, 01:17 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Karsa"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Karsa said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271908#post-6271908" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Hope to finally get onto beta this week but if any of that ^^^^^ is true gonna be real sad. I would hope that in the 'quest' to fix beastlords that ethereal effects are taken into account also with increase to potency and other stats that 'hemotoxin damage' will increase as well. Hemotoxin and shadow (reset) will present a huge amount damage that the 'fix' will need to overcome. If it's not possible to give beastlords 'a shadow' or 'a rampage of swarm pets like undead horde' then increasing the 5% base to help make up the differential maybe strongly needed.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>The bug with finisher and hemotoxin seems to be fixed on beta, lowering its (max) dps by maybe 300-500%, btw!

Mark John
10-27-2015, 11:21 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6271818#post-6271818" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I'll concede incredibly difficult/unreasonable, but not impossible in most encounters. e.g. Quorox (sp?) is incredibly difficult and I wouldn't expect players to be able to do it, the first fight in RoM is impossible (with expected RNG).<br /> <br />(This expansion's...) "nail in the coffin" to the BL class is the addition of ethereals.<br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">It is way easier//possible to routinely cast FFU during a bow ethereal/2x damage procs</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">Shadow reset is stupid</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">Resets don't restore savagery (does it even reset primals for this to matter? does anyone care?)</div> <br />tl;dr Beastlords are bad. This expansion they got worse. No one is surprised.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />How is it possible to routinely cast FFU chains during ethereal bow proc? My understanding is those procs are random, is that incorrect? And if so,say even if you had an ACT trigger that would notify you after the proc has occurred you still couldn't cast anything coincidentally. So it seems that the dps-rotation would just proceed normally and the proc timing would be RNG-related?

Koko
10-27-2015, 12:38 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mark John"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mark John said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272420#post-6272420" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">How is it possible to routinely cast FFU chains during ethereal bow proc? My understanding is those procs are random, is that incorrect?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>The proc is semi-random, it can be manipulated. The ethereal items have an internal cooldown that resets whenever the item is reset (e.g. equipped, player res'd, etc.) or triggers.<br /><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote"> <aside> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">And if so,say even if you had an ACT trigger that would notify you after the proc has occurred you still couldn't cast anything coincidentally.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>It is relatively simple to make an ACT timer that displays "next proc in X seconds" after the initial trigger to enable players to "watch for it," and FFU is favored over a primal burst in this scenario. To name a few:<br /><ul><li>FFU is faster to execute than a primal burst<ul><li>Primal bursts is "held back" by primal savagery cost, and the cooldown/cast time on blindside/stealth</li></ul></li><li>FFU timing is not dependent on transient effects<ul><li>Primal burst damage is directly tied to savagery/feral rampage stacks, the later is refreshed by primal combat arts and "dropping" feral rampage equates to a 120% damage loss on primal abilities. Once the first primal is cast, the interval for all successive primals is "set"</li></ul></li><li>FFU can be cast "out of the box"<ul><li>Primal Burst requires 6 stacks of feral rampage + full savagery, which suggests that the encounter is "stagnant" for the past 30+ seconds (more for syncing feral intensity). The beastlord can't die, there can be limited jousts/movement/turning, etc. Exceptionally skilled/borderline clairvoyant players can mitigate these to some degree, but the last time I tried to coordinate around them my playgroup didn't like it (i.e. I described as, and I quote, "a raging ****")</li></ul></li></ul>tl;dr because primal bursts are greatly structured, cast slowly, and "unreliable", coordinating it with an ethereal proc is... unreasonable. Alternatively, FFU can be held until the proc occurs. This is simply one method, of many, that ethereals <span style="text-decoration: line-through">killed</span> beat the dead horse that are beastlords.

Karsa
10-27-2015, 01:55 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272430#post-6272430" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">The proc is semi-random, it can be manipulated. The ethereal items have an internal cooldown that resets whenever the item is reset (e.g. equipped, player res'd, etc.) or triggers.<br />It is relatively simple to make an ACT timer that displays "next proc in X seconds" after the initial trigger to enable players to "watch for it," and FFU is favored over a primal burst in this scenario. To name a few:<br /><ul><li>FFU is faster to execute than a primal burst<ul><li>Primal bursts is "held back" by primal savagery cost, and the cooldown/cast time on blindside/stealth</li></ul></li><li>FFU timing is not dependent on transient effects<ul><li>Primal burst damage is directly tied to savagery/feral rampage stacks, the later is refreshed by primal combat arts and "dropping" feral rampage equates to a 120% damage loss on primal abilities. Once the first primal is cast, the interval for all successive primals is "set"</li></ul></li><li>FFU can be cast "out of the box"<ul><li>Primal Burst requires 6 stacks of feral rampage + full savagery, which suggests that the encounter is "stagnant" for the past 30+ seconds (more for syncing feral intensity). The beastlord can't die, there can be limited jousts/movement/turning, etc. Exceptionally skilled/borderline clairvoyant players can mitigate these to some degree, but the last time I tried to coordinate around them my playgroup didn't like it (i.e. I described as, and I quote, "a raging ****")</li></ul></li></ul>tl;dr because primal bursts are greatly structured, cast slowly, and "unreliable", coordinating it with an ethereal proc is... unreasonable. Alternatively, FFU can be held until the proc occurs. This is simply one method, of many, that ethereals <span style="text-decoration: line-through">killed</span> beat the dead horse that are beastlords.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Sad but true.. Devs have about 20 days to make some big changes hopefully there will be aces not jokers we get dealt. Maybe bring back pet proccing ..<img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

Nkito
10-27-2015, 02:40 PM
Eventually we will have this game filtered down to where we all gear and spec the same, with similar playstyles. Remove enough diversity and only differences we'll have left are the names of the spells we're casting. People want poison removed, autoattack reduced to less than pet damage, fc mutilated to remove spike damage in the name of "fairness". <br /><br />Use what is available to the best of your ability, fight to increase the shortcomings of your favorite class, or if you don't feel like fighting then maybe roll an alt and see if the grass is truly greener for yourself. I'd have to think devs see what classes are popularly played and that lets them know where to look for shortcomings. But this perpetual habit of saying xyz is overpowered please nerf will just make this a more boring place to be. We already see it in the new caps.

Estarion
10-27-2015, 03:09 PM
Actually new diety bless Trickster's Mockery would help to manage stealth attacks, but only if it will stacks into multiple increments that can be pulled in raid/hard heroic fight. Now it maintain only one and puting more tithe point is waste. Hope it's a bug nor intended.

Karsa
10-27-2015, 03:14 PM
Aa ability pack's ferocity seems bugged total aoe stat is low and in the same tree the weapon skills is bugged as well

Estarion
10-27-2015, 03:42 PM
Another bugs that should have been fixed long time ago is 5 and 6 slot AA primals<br />Devour is still somehow healing an enemy!<br /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/H9F4ppB.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br />Feral Charge is still unable to cast while moving. Why? It's not a spell.<br />And our self buff is still cripple compared to any other scout self buff.<br /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/QB9OlK8.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br />No base avoidance No agi buff. And all magic mitigation disparity by 3.3k. It's almost 2 superior resilience adornments by type or 3 prismatic. Why that?

Ruckus
10-27-2015, 04:48 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Nkito"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Nkito said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272470#post-6272470" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Use what is available to the best of your ability, fight to increase the shortcomings of your favorite class, or if you don't feel like fighting then maybe roll an alt and see if the grass is truly greener for yourself. I'd have to think devs see what classes are popularly played and that lets them know where to look for shortcomings. But this perpetual habit of saying xyz is overpowered please nerf will just make this a more boring place to be. We already see it in the new caps.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Swashbucklers used to be a popular class, then when it became obvious that brigands brought more to a raid, nearly everyone betrayed from swashbuckler to brigand. If they put some time into a little revamping of the swashbuckler class, and gave us something that was deemed to be "raid worthy" you'd see brigands going back to being swashbucklers.

Kaladz
10-27-2015, 06:22 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Ruckus"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Ruckus said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272551#post-6272551" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Swashbucklers used to be a popular class, then when it became obvious that brigands brought more to a raid, nearly everyone betrayed from swashbuckler to brigand. If they put some time into a little revamping of the swashbuckler class, and gave us something that was deemed to be "raid worthy" you'd see brigands going back to being swashbucklers.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I agree that swashbuckler's need something else to bring to a raid. Marauder's Vaunt was a nice start in that direction, but ultimately not a big impact in raids. I'd love to see some additional changes to the swashbuckler class to improve their raid worth.

Arco
10-27-2015, 07:31 PM
Is fixing some swash offensive debuffs, so they're relevant/useful again, hard or time consuming?<br /><br />I could easily see swash being wanted in raid, if their debuffs actually made some sort of difference in tank or raid survivability...

Karsa
10-27-2015, 11:37 PM
don't need your poisons unless they are gonna do massive over-all to beast-lords aa to support poisons, really don't care if poisons are hitting for 12 mill or 200 mill as long devs can balance the beast-lords ca's to keep up...sides need my plat for infusions & shineys...not to buy poisons....<img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

Mark John
10-28-2015, 01:17 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arco"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arco said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272679#post-6272679" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Is fixing some swash offensive debuffs, so they're relevant/useful again, hard or time consuming?<br /> <br />I could easily see swash being wanted in raid, if their debuffs actually made some sort of difference in tank or raid survivability...</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I don't think it is possible to balance Swash debuffs in a sustainable way. Reason i say this is if you consider a new raid encounter (say at the start of an xpac or new raid zone for an improving guild) the Swash debuffs may be helpful to aid tank/raid survivability. However, once the guild in that situation 'gears up' and can more easily survive, the Swash debuffs decrease in value or become outright unnecessary. In contrast, Brig debuffs allow more raid dps so are always valuable.<br /> <br />So in summary, Swash debuffs may be valuable sometimes, but will lose value vs a specific encounter over time for an improving guild.

Bunshin
10-28-2015, 01:53 AM
... Why not just homogenize both rogues... The AA's for both rogues are mostly offensive debuffs (traumatic swipe, coule, thieving essence) so brigs are doing the swashbuckler's job in the first place. Swash class debuffs aren't that much compared to the AA debuffs, so just create the AA's for offensive debuffs for both rogues and make both rogues debuff similar things. Play style will be the diffrence bewteen the two classes ... (nod to bumping swash dps to be on par with brigs(and then rogues to be on par with summoners....)

Lyricus
10-28-2015, 02:05 AM
Well considering we have seen no signs of any balancing for Swashies, I am beginning to doubt much of anything is coming soon. I will hang in there, but God is it painful.

Arco
10-28-2015, 07:24 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mark John"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mark John said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272935#post-6272935" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I don't think it is possible to balance Swash debuffs in a sustainable way. Reason i say this is if you consider a new raid encounter (say at the start of an xpac or new raid zone for an improving guild) the Swash debuffs may be helpful to aid tank/raid survivability. However, once the guild in that situation 'gears up' and can more easily survive, the Swash debuffs decrease in value or become outright unnecessary. .</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Progression.<br />Guilds are always pushing progression... Sure, the swash would lose some of it's usefulness after you've over-geared the content... but every time you try to push further in content, if the swash helps raid survivability, guilds would desire a swash.

Rhapsodic1
10-28-2015, 07:34 AM
Dirge perspective:<br /> <br />CB 3k cap, at current level and stats will not really have any effect. I probably hover somewhere around 2k during raids. However, with expansion gear don't know how much higher stats will go, so this can have a negative impact on the class later on if we are indeed able to reach the 3k stat cap.<br /> <br />WDB 300 cap, this will be the biggest hit. I get well over 300 in current raids, so auto attack will be effected immediately upon expansion release. We currently rely on our auto attack to be our main source of DPS, in fact, around 60% on most fights. This will also greatly impact RO/VC. I understand that you want to lower this and bring CA dmg to be more relevant. I understand that... might also create more separation between the players, but that brings me to the next part...<br /> <br />30% CA increase, this has barely any effect on dirges. The reason I say that is because dirge abilities have horrible base damage. Horrible base damage + 30% = little less horrible damage. Our CA's would have to have an increase a lot greater than 30% to make up for the loss of auto attack. The other downside to this is server lag. In 1 of the raid zones tonight, the lag was so bad I could only cast 1 CA between auto attacks, even doing that my auto attack was still being delayed sometimes. <br /> <br />You also have to take into account the other functions of playing a dirge. Rezzing, confront fear, debuffs, gravitas, sonic barrier. The only thing keeping our DPS to a decent level while still performing all these abilities was the fact that our auto attack was hitting hard. Taking that away and still performing our duties will impact our overall DPS even more.<br /> <br />Couple suggestions:<br /> <br />Combining the 4 green debuffs down to 2<br />Increase the accepted dps during RO from 6% to 8-10%<br />Lower casting time of group rez so that it casts between 1 auto attack with a 4sec weapon at max haste<br />Increase CA dmg a lot more than 30%<br />Don't cap WDB<br />Don't cap CB<br /> <br /> <br />Bonus:<br />Even though not really important, left side prestige tree Infectious Dissonance is broken. Submitted DGC ticket awhile ago.

Annabea
10-28-2015, 07:36 AM
BLs stance added pet buff doesnt seem to do anything currently, tooltip says it increases pets attributes by 300%, but doesnt seem to add a single point of stats to it. <br /> <br />Also cant seem to find anything i can tame as a warder despite the live stream saying Fathomlurkers would be available, is it quest gated like Insect or just not enabled yet?

kluxor
10-28-2015, 08:03 AM
I find it pretty discerning that there is one meaningful post regarding the huge decrease to poison numbers which directly effects 4 classes but there's a dozen pages about the 4 active beastlords playing. Don't mess with poisons, just let beaslords use'em

Nkito
10-28-2015, 08:36 AM
My bl has been parked since early tov but if I remember correctly it seemed the biggest complaint from a recent beastlord thread revolved around the complete uselessness of spiritual stance. Is that approach being abandoned in favor of a one dimensional dps increase?

Awesomeo
10-28-2015, 10:14 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Annabea"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Annabea said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273144#post-6273144" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">BLs stance added pet buff doesnt seem to do anything currently, tooltip says it increases pets attributes by 300%, but doesnt seem to add a single point of stats to it.<br /> <br />Also cant seem to find anything i can tame as a warder despite the live stream saying Fathomlurkers would be available, is it quest gated like Insect or just not enabled yet?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />How much is 300% of sod all? Can someone work that out for me please? <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

Chilton0585
10-28-2015, 02:20 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arco"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arco said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272679#post-6272679" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Is fixing some swash offensive debuffs, so they're relevant/useful again, hard or time consuming?<br /> <br />I could easily see swash being wanted in raid, if their debuffs actually made some sort of difference in tank or raid survivability...</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I just dont understand why people care so much for such a small disparity. Yea, brigs bring more and offer a bit more to the raid, but that doesn't make swash useless or BAD. I don't know why people just dont play which one they like best =

Ruckus
10-28-2015, 02:48 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Chilton0585"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Chilton0585 said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273277#post-6273277" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I just dont understand why people care so much for such a small disparity. Yea, brigs bring more and offer a bit more to the raid, but that doesn't make swash useless or BAD. I don't know why people just dont play which one they like best =</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I've played a swashy since launch. Just about every guild I've been in over the past 6 years have had a brigand. One brigand was awesome. The others flaked on us and stopped showing up or stopped caring to gear their toon up properly.<br /><br />My current guild's raid progression was at a standstill until someone switched their main to a brigand. Progression pretty much instantly happened on a few mobs as soon as that happened. I knew that by not going brigand years ago, I was not helping my guilds by being stubborn by not betraying to a brigand.<br /><br />I've been waiting for over a year now with these empty promises of them "fixing scouts". By ONLY bumping up the amount of damage that my combat arts can do does me nothing to "justify" staying a swashbuckler. I just ask that my debuffs do something that makes a difference...like what a brigand can do to a raid force.<br /><br />Either they don't have time to fiddle with making this class "raid worthy" or nobody cares.

Ruckus
10-28-2015, 02:59 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Bunshin"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Bunshin said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6272964#post-6272964" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">... Why not just homogenize both rogues... The AA's for both rogues are mostly offensive debuffs (traumatic swipe, coule, thieving essence) so brigs are doing the swashbuckler's job in the first place. Swash class debuffs aren't that much compared to the AA debuffs, so just create the AA's for offensive debuffs for both rogues and make both rogues debuff similar things. Play style will be the diffrence bewteen the two classes ... (nod to bumping swash dps to be on par with brigs(and then rogues to be on par with summoners....)</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />At this rate, I'd be happy with these suggestions.

Meirril
10-28-2015, 04:19 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Chilton0585"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Chilton0585 said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273277#post-6273277" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I just dont understand why people care so much for such a small disparity. Yea, brigs bring more and offer a bit more to the raid, but that doesn't make swash useless or BAD. I don't know why people just dont play which one they like best =</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Most raid groups are trying to do the hardest content they can manage. You only have a limited amount of slots so trying to get the most out of each slot means you can handle harder content. If you have the luxury of drawing enough players that you can demand certain classes, you'll go for the ones that give the most benefit.<br /> <br />Damage is nice, but damage isn't everything. To make a successful raid you have to consider utility too. Unfortunately the utility swashbuckler's bring to a raid is questionable. In general they provide as much utility as an assassin and less DPS. Or they bring nearly the same DPS as a Brig but much less desirable debuffs.<br /> <br />That still makes them better than Beastlords who don't bring top DPS, can't provide meaningful utility and actually cause agro problems without being better than any other scout class at DPS.<br /> <br />I can sympathize a little with the bards because the stat they push for DPS is getting nerfed. That said they aren't going to loose a raid spot because of that. Nobody brings a bard for their awesome DPS, they bring them for the awesome utility they provide. Still if Bards really feel that they need to contribute more DPS why not ask for poison to be extended to all scouts? That would more than make up for the loss of auto attack damage.

Arco
10-28-2015, 04:38 PM
Bards won't want poisons unless the dmg counts towards VC's dmg...<br /><br />I think swash, BL, and bards needed more than 30% CA boost to compensate for their already unbalanced situation.<br /><br />Boosting everyone by the same margin won't help with balancing the classes.

Ruckus
10-28-2015, 04:45 PM
Nobody wants poisons, because we're tired of having to pay for our DPS (and debuffs with blue/purple). Mages, fighters, and healers get their DPS "naturally", but 4 scout classes have to pay extra to keep up with the mages.<br /><br />Then factor in that the AA poison options for some classes being OP compared to the AAs options for other classes...there is no balance.<br /><br />Using the mindset of "just give them more CA damage" is not fixing the problem. All poisons need to be gone, or just force mages to have to spend plat/time to use a similar item...and adjust their spell damage down so there is balance between chain DPS and cloth DPS.<br /><br />Why do we bother with feedback, when it's obvious nobody has been listening for years?

Mark John
10-28-2015, 04:51 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arco"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arco said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273133#post-6273133" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Progression.<br />Guilds are always pushing progression... Sure, the swash would lose some of it's usefulness after you've over-geared the content... but every time you try to push further in content, if the swash helps raid survivability, guilds would desire a swash.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Good point and agreed. However, the situation still exists that except for those specific 'progression' raids where the survivabilty of the tank and raid are at risk, Swash utility is markedly lessened. Further, it is hard to imagine a scenario (given other class debuffs, Shaman for example) that a Swash would be required.

Mark John
10-28-2015, 04:54 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arco"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arco said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273374#post-6273374" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Bards won't want poisons unless the dmg counts towards VC's dmg...<br /> <br />I think swash, BL, and bards needed more than 30% CA boost to compensate for their already unbalanced situation.<br /> <br />Boosting everyone by the same margin won't help with balancing the classes.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Agreed. if all scouts get a 30% increase, then the absolute damage gap between an Assassin and say either a Swash or BL actually increases (at least in CA damage).

Nkito
10-28-2015, 05:43 PM
I agree, why not poisons for all scouts in '16 and balance CA modifiers for each class from there? It's enough hearing the mages go on about autoattack and poison dmg but to also hear it from fellow scouts. I don't think this is the right answer necessarily but have heard enough mention of poisons being op. Or perhaps removed completely? Bump ca dmg up to compensate for the loss on rogues and predators? I would not mind pocketing the 100p a day im spending on them currently, similar to compressed ammo...<br /><br />I don't mind spending it to squeeze out more dps but if my poison users can be balanced to do their similarly intended dps and i save my plat.. I think it's funny that people want to say how overpowered they are but someone suggests sharing it with these other classes and all of a sudden they dont want to pay for their dps.

Kaladz
10-28-2015, 05:56 PM
30% CA increase for swashbuckler combat arts won't help much to counteract the WDB cap. Most of our combat arts are pretty bad currently and we heavily rely on autoattack damage. I'd love to see some more balancing in our combat art damage rather than a flat increase.<br /> <br />Our temp buffs need to also be reworked as they don't do much at our current stat levels, especially the following:<br /><ul><li>Ruthless Cunning </li><li>Perfect Finesse</li><li>En Garde</li><li>Inspired Daring</li></ul>

Reevar
10-28-2015, 05:58 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Annabea"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Annabea said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273144#post-6273144" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">BLs stance added pet buff doesnt seem to do anything currently, tooltip says it increases pets attributes by 300%, but doesnt seem to add a single point of stats to it.<br /> <br />Also cant seem to find anything i can tame as a warder despite the live stream saying Fathomlurkers would be available, is it quest gated like Insect or just not enabled yet?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br /> <br />You can tame the Locusts at the end of the first quest tunnel. I forget the name. Also the Fire lizards/Fire Beatles/Bats

kluxor
10-28-2015, 07:28 PM
Poison for all scouts is truly the way to go, along with some tweaks to the non-hemo poisons that other scouts can specialize via aa. While yes, assassins may have the highest poison numbers...they're built and specd that way so they should. It's w bonus for all the other classes too now that their increased pot will directly effect those numbers too<br /><br />In regards to having to spend plat for dps....if you don't want to put out the numbers, go buy the cheap stuff or make them yourself

Ruckus
10-28-2015, 09:12 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="kluxor"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">kluxor said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273803#post-6273803" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Predators dps, rogues debuff, and bards buff...all I hear is rogues and bards talking about their dps numbers, while they should be talking about how they should be making everyone's numbers highrr</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><br />I have no issue with preds DPSing higher than rogues. What I have issue with is that swashbuckler debuffs do not matter, and the brigand ones shine. <br /><br />Summoners and rogues should be on the same level of DPS and debuffs, too. Just like bards and chanters are the buff classes.<br /><br />I have no idea on where beastlords are supposed to be in this mess.

ZUES
10-28-2015, 09:17 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Ruckus"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Ruckus said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273819#post-6273819" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I have no issue with preds DPSing higher than rogues. What I have issue with is that swashbuckler debuffs do not matter, and the brigand ones shine.<br /> <br />Summoners and rogues should be on the same level of DPS and debuffs, too. Just like bards and chanters are the buff classes.<br /> <br />I have no idea on where beastlords are supposed to be in this mess.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Well considering beastlords and channelers bring in money for Daybreak I would be in awe if they left them as they are. In order to encourage sales they really need to bring up the parses of both classes. Theoratically they should be number 1 in both dps and heals respectively.

Bunshin
10-28-2015, 09:26 PM
Want to put out there, having group utility is nice but then we are becoming half bard, half dps, all hype...<br />Desirability comes in the form of having a viable option over another class, sad to say but that's the truth of the matter. Too many slots used up and not enough for all 9 dps classes so just being able to compete is making it desirable.<br /> <br />The argument for poisons should be for like bards ... have it as AA and have it as a passive proc dmg (scaling like poison on live to keep in line with mages) without costing any dps scouts time and effort for them.<br />Suggestions -<br />Change of engagement - MhD should be switched with the swash 10 pot debuff from myth, giving both rogues mhd and the swash the only scout dps withoutone (not counting the shared heroic AA)<br />Pirate's Swordplay - change the increment from 2 to 4 and keep it max at 16. It'll just increase 1-4 mob dps for swash and keep aoe dps the same.<br />Seafury Thrust and twisting Blade - each increment just lower base reuse (20 seconds at max) and change the extra hits from twisting to increase dmg to seafury. Keeping the physical dmg done to target would keep swash single up for the single single.<br />Pirate's Spin - just make inspired daring or engarde an always on buff and adjust values accordingly. kills 2 birds with one stone, pirate's spin underwhelming and to many swash temps would not be addressed in away.<br /> Duelist Perception - Hate mod ... not needed for brig or swash due to some cas and abilities to throw hate away. Honestly why hate mod when we can reforge adorn and do various things for. should give off stance dmg proc and def stance Dr/mitigation proc .

Ruckus
10-28-2015, 09:26 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273824#post-6273824" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Well considering beastlords and channelers bring in money for Daybreak I would be in awe if they left them as they are. In order to encourage sales they really need to bring up the parses of both classes. Theoratically they should be number 1 in both dps and heals respectively.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />And this is so wrong in so many ways. >.<

ZUES
10-28-2015, 09:34 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Ruckus"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Ruckus said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273835#post-6273835" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">And this is so wrong in so many ways. >.<</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Lol, depressing thought huh?

Errrorr
10-28-2015, 09:38 PM
Please don't make scout DPS all about Poisons.<br /> <br />I want my DPS to come from pressing buttons, not passive procs.

kluxor
10-28-2015, 11:42 PM
Errorrr....you must not raid or else you'd realize its impossible to get max CA dmg during the lag

Errrorr
10-28-2015, 11:56 PM
I've raided plenty. The lag can be bad, but it doesn't mean I want my class to be turn on auto attack and go afk.<br /><br />Please stop advocating afk dps for scouts. It's such a dumb idea all round. Mages have to deal with the lag for their casting, up our abilities and perhaps consider lowering base recovery speed on combat arts too for assisting countering some lag.

Koko
10-29-2015, 12:10 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="kluxor"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">kluxor said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273977#post-6273977" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">its impossible to get max CA dmg during the lag</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Then fix it. Servers are still located in LA instead of Chicago for reasons I can't comprehend. Remove complex hit rate mechanics. I can go on forever.

Arco
10-29-2015, 12:15 AM
I don't care how bad the lag gets... more button pushing, less passive dps<br /> <br />I would rather see my dps lacking from dealing with lag than to see myself pushing buttons that doesn't do crap for my parse but to proc all the passive dps...<br /> <br /> <br /> <br />Assassin should be the master of Hemotoxin<br />Ranger should be the master of Caustic<br />Rogues should be the masters of Vitality/Mental<br /><br />Caustic needs to be adjusted so it is actually better for rangers to be using it over hemo...<br />Swash spec'd for Mental Breech should allow that poison to do hefty mana drains in PvE when it procs, so it has use for power drain fights...<br />I haven't looked at Vitality in a long time, but it probably also needs adjusted for PvE.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br />The Hemotoxin "band-aid" has been too over the top since it was added... hopefully the rumors of hemo doing less dmg atm in beta is true and planned to stay that way.<br /> <br />We're finally getting scout CAs boosted... it's time the band-aid was removed, right?

Therein
10-29-2015, 01:31 AM
Will need some confirmation of mechanics, due to possibility outdated information. For a long time the cap for mitigation debuffs has been 50 X mob level. So a lvl 110 mob is capped at 5500 mitigation debuffed. This makes things like dispatch, rake, debilitate and cornered a bit over the top with current values + 30% increase. I understand that the 30% increased values is a blanket adjustment for all scouts, but redundancy of caps vs values seems to be overlooked. I would love to see some different mechanics going in to play with debuffs in general. Dispatch could easily be adjusted to make mobs take a % based damage incoming from all sources. Swashbuckler debuffs have been dated for quite some time now and could have various factors added to them. Reduction in mob final ability damage, maybe even a targets target stoneskin? I don't play a swash, all I hear them want is more dps, so my information is limited about them. <br /> <br />Point being here, some of us actually play the rogues because we love debuffing and having that driving force behind the raid's success. However, as the game inches onward, debuffs are becoming like most of the buffs in the game. At one time they were very large increases to the effectiveness of a character but have been overlooked for so long that they are becoming obsolete.

Ruckus
10-29-2015, 01:56 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arco"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arco said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274005#post-6274005" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Assassin should be the master of Hemotoxin<br />Ranger should be the master of Caustic<br />Rogues should be the masters of Vitality/Mental<br /> <br />Caustic needs to be adjusted so it is actually better for rangers to be using it over hemo...<br />Swash spec'd for Mental Breech should allow that poison to do hefty mana drains in PvE when it procs, so it has use for power drain fights...<br />I haven't looked at Vitality in a long time, but it probably also needs adjusted for PvE.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><br />Rogues being masters of vitality/mental? Swashbucklers already have a hard time justifying their place in a raid force, and you want to make us even less viable with this way of thinking?<br /><br />There was only 1 fight in AoM that I know (Arch Lich in Temple) of that required power drains to happen, and we let the mages who were able to power drain do that work while we DPS scouts were killing the add that was up. <br /><br />I've not had to use health or power poisons for since...ever. It's always been hemo or caustic for my swashbuckler's red poison. Why waste 5 AA points on a mental poison that I never have used, when I can put it into something equally useless in the swashbuckler's other horrid AA debuff options?

Koko
10-29-2015, 02:36 AM
Swashbucklers would be useful if their debuffs changed the number of <span style="text-decoration: line-through">auto attacks</span> anything it took to kill <span style="text-decoration: line-through">tanks</span> players. Everyone already knew that though.<br /> <br />Yet player health is too small/encounter damage is too high for that to happen, and priests "like big numbers despite it being worse mechanically for them", so you need to convince developers to increase player health by 5~10 fold. That is an uphill battle because it will likely involve nerfing fighter itemization in some fashion. Everyone already knows this too.<br /> <br />So you're kinda screwed, but you hopefully knew that DPS kinda get screwed in this game.<br /> <br />P.S. I think it'd be great if it took more than one spell to heal someone so swashy debuffs could reasonably impact a group/raid. Every heal buff, including crit bonus/potency, goes in the opposite direction. We've been in the opposite direction for about 3~4 expansions straight now.

Ruckus
10-29-2015, 08:03 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="kluxor"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">kluxor said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6273727#post-6273727" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Poison for all scouts is truly the way to go, along with some tweaks to the non-hemo poisons that other scouts can specialize via aa. While yes, assassins may have the highest poison numbers...they're built and specd that way so they should. It's w bonus for all the other classes too now that their increased pot will directly effect those numbers too<br /> <br />In regards to having to spend plat for dps....if you don't want to put out the numbers, go buy the cheap stuff or make them yourself</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br /> <br />Poision using scouts need their AAs revamped, so we all make use of the damage ones.<br /> <br />Swashbuckler red poison AA is for mental breech. LOL when was the last time any of us seriously used this flavor of red poison? We also get an AA for Turgur's (blue). Pass. I'll use those 10 AA points in something else. Swashbucklers also get an option for AA going into "offensive poisons" for strength and intelligence (purples). Yeah, that's what I want 3 colored poisons going and costing even more plat. Do blues or purples even work like they should? Do they even make a difference?<br /> <br />Brigand red poison AA is for vitality breech. Again LOL at that crappy option. Neither rogue class gets a red poison AA from their class AA tab like assassins (hemo) and rangers (caustic). They also get a "defensive poison" AA for agility and wisdom (purples)<br /> <br />On the rogue tab, we get an AA for ignorant bliss. Not really needed for a swashbuckler, thanks to hate xfer, and I doubt many brigands are using this AA (or ignorant bliss for that matter (blue poison).<br /> <br />On the Shadows line, both rogues get an AA for poison damage, which I do use.<br /> <br />Rangers get Fettering poison AA (blue and LOL if they're using that one). They also get an AA for direct damage red poison (caustic).<br /> <br />Assassins get an AA for the much heralded hemotoxin red poison in the assassin AA tab, and they get Poison Mastery in the Shadows tab on the assassin bottom line.<br /> <br />After comparing all 4 poison using scouts, do you see where the AA imbalance is in the red poisons now?<br /> <br />+++++++<br /> <br />As for the actual COST of our poisons: I'm an alchemist. I make my own. I spend time foraging for rare roots to make my own poisons. Then add in the cost of fuels for the poisons. You need 2 rare roots to make the top end poisons. 1 rare root for the middle, and none for the cheap ones.<br /> <br />Do you see mages having to go out and make an effort to supply their own poisons by harvesting? Do you see them spending lots of plat to supplement their DPS? NOPE. They get their DPS naturally from their spells. Like everyone else, they can invest the money into making/buying top end food and potions, but 4 scout classes have to put plat (and time if you make your own) into our red, blue, and purple poisons.<br /> <br />PS: I have 8 level 100 crafters (no sage) and I use all of them to support my raiding swashbuckler over the years. I make my own poisons, potions, ammo, food/drink, white/purple adorns. Pity player made armor, jewelry, charms, weapons, cloaks, and belts are only really good for early on in an expansion. They quickly get replaced once raid mobs start dropping. By the looks of things, all of my AoM/RC/fabled EoF gear will replaced by quested ToT gear and I doubt if I use any player made gear over quested ToT gear. If things happen like they did in AoM, my jeweler might end up making resist gear, and that's about it.

ZUES
10-29-2015, 08:32 AM
Possible Swashy fixes...<br /><br />1. Traumatic Swipe - increase and/or add more debuffs to it. <br />2. Add the Dispatch equivelant to the Swashy lineup.<br />3. Add something to Marauders Vaunt to include mages and healers. Also increase it's final ability damage amount to 7%.<br />4. Allow our 10 million temp buffs to be group AE by adding an option to the swashies AA tree (like you did with bard debuffs).<br />5. Change Swarthy Deception so it includes 28% threat transfer, 28% hate and 28% aggression. <br /><br />I'm not sure if these are the correct fixes or not but I'm just adding to the idea pool. I would love to see swashy desirability increased. They were essentially left out of AoM, although a few guilds did run one.

kluxor
10-29-2015, 08:48 AM
As I stated, the other poisons need an adjustment<br /><br />Also stated that assassins (rangers too if they were to adjust caustic poisons) would be the #1 poison users. Don't expect rogues and bards to put out the same kind of numbers. Predators dps, rogues debuff, and bards buff...all I hear is rogues and bards talking about their dps numbers, while they should be talking about how they should be making everyone's numbers highrr

Bunshin
10-29-2015, 01:53 PM
I mean passive dps is gonna be there no matter what ... Temps are click but then become passive because it procs from melee/cas so in the end its a turn on/off passive ability...<br /> <br />Poison AA- make it have a total increase by 10% in all the scout with poison AA (rogues/preds) so we all can dps with poison and power drain with mental breach, i mean we don't need to limit only 1 class why not broaden it to all 4 *wink.<br /> <br />Only way i see Swash debuffs being meaningful is if it throw % base offensive debuffs instead of small dubious numbers...<br /> <br />If you consider debuffs a form of utility then all classes got some form of utility, the best utility was mhd and sins got that before any dps scout classes. Swash is the only one that does not have "their" own MhD(being shared with brigand on heroic tree does not count as "their" own unless brigand decides to not spec said ability) so that knocks us down in being warranted a spot.<br />Not trying to get swash a t1 spot .. but i want to get swash inline in dps with counterpart and counter class ie summoner. Best thing about brigands, when their dps was below swashes they were still needed in raids because of there debuffs, they'd replace a swash because u wouldn't wanna replace a sin with mhd/and the dps they bring.

Arco
10-29-2015, 02:46 PM
If swash utility isn't addressed, then they'll never be desired in raids until you make them a T1 dps, is the issue I see... <br /><br />At this point... even the low utility class, Ranger, brings better utility to the raid than a swash, since a brig will already be in the raid.<br /><br />I'm for adjusting swash dps, but if nothing is done about their utility, I'll still see them not wanted by raids.<br />Just out parsing the brigands won't make raids want a swash.

ZUES
10-29-2015, 03:07 PM
I didn't do any heroic or raids yesterday on beta but my max hemo hit was 1 mil. And that is with a LOT more potency than I run on live. On live I'm usually between 5-12 mil depending on single target or AOE spec respectively.

Arco
10-29-2015, 08:42 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Ruckus"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Ruckus said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274097#post-6274097" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Rogues being masters of vitality/mental? Swashbucklers already have a hard time justifying their place in a raid force, and you want to make us even less viable with this way of thinking?<br /><br />There was only 1 fight in AoM that I know (Arch Lich in Temple) of that required power drains to happen, and we let the mages who were able to power drain do that work while we DPS scouts were killing the add that was up.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Less viable? How is fixing what is currently already there and what was originally intended, make you less viable?<br /><br />No one said you would have to use vitality/mental all the time... Just that fixing those would give rogues that small bit of utility they lost....<br /><br />Also, there's more mobs that need mana drained, even some trash, like FT that cast heals... atm mages can handle current mana drains easily... doesn't mean future mobs couldn't be made to allow it to be useful again. <br /><br />I'm not a fan of pushing for all classes to be T1s. <br />Classes that are meant to have good utility, need to get good utility again. <br /><br />Swash should be desired in raids for their utility and decent dps, not because they can parse like a T1.<br /><br />That being said, I'm not disagreeing that swash still need more of an increase than the 30% boost all scouts received.

Bunshin
10-29-2015, 09:44 PM
If you defining utility as the debuffs then im all for % base debuff. Being able to debuff epic incoing heal be nice where if we fail the mob doesnt heal for say 5% but instead 2-3% of its health. If you want other things like a "epic" interrupt that be great as, being able to interrurpt a incoming aoe ever 3-5 mins knowing that we fubared cures or something.<br />I'm also all for homogenizing brigs and swash and keep the offensive debuffs in AAs while both class debuff defense, only difference is play style.<br />There are lots of ways going about many different aspects of the class but as i see it, swash, bl, and bards are on the back burner. Going into the new expac with expectations of being adjusted on the next gu and being strung along till the next expac again seems to be the course.

Ruckus
10-29-2015, 09:59 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arco"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arco said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274294#post-6274294" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Less viable? How is fixing what is currently already there and what was originally intended, make you less viable?<br /> <br />No one said you would have to use vitality/mental all the time... Just that fixing those would give rogues that small bit of utility they lost....<br /> <br />Also, there's more mobs that need mana drained, even some trash, like FT that cast heals... atm mages can handle current mana drains easily... doesn't mean future mobs couldn't be made to allow it to be useful again.<br /> <br />I'm not a fan of pushing for all classes to be T1s.<br />Classes that are meant to have good utility, need to get good utility again.<br /> <br />Swash should be desired in raids for their utility and decent dps, not because they can parse like a T1.<br /> <br />That being said, I'm not disagreeing that swash still need more of an increase than the 30% boost all scouts received.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Swashbucklers are already not really wanted or needed in a raid force, because our debuffs bring nothing to the table compared to brigands. They have yet to make a fight where our mental poison AA "talent" is needed in a fight. Let's say that being King of Mental Poison mattered in AoM. I'd only use that ability for one fight (last named in Temple). If I'm relying on my poison to drain that mob's power, I also can't be doing DPS. <br /><br />When we do this fight, we time the 75% 50% 25% and 10% "run to the idol and click" events with when the add is not spawned. If we're close to 75% and getting an add to spawn, we'll hold DPS on the named and wait for the add to pop. If I'm staying on the named to keep his power low, I'm also adding DPS to the mob while my poison is power draining. This is why we have the REAL power draining classes on the named and the rest of us are beating down the add. Once the add is down, we then bring the named down to 75, 50, 25, 10, so we can be ready for 4 people to run out to the idols. I can't do one thing without the other. If I'm power draining with my poison, then I'm also doing DPS.<br /><br />Doing away with poisons totally, and boosting the DPS of all 4 scouts that use poison would take care of this issue. Give preds T1 level combat art damage, and lessen the combat damage for rogues (T2). While they are doing that, give preds 0 buff/debuff skills, but pump up the rogue debuff skills to make up for the lack of our DPS numbers. Bards can keep on doing what they are doing in regards to buffing their groups. Again...I don't know where to toss in the beastlords in this whole equation, because beastlords (in theory) could fill a few different roles, and those roles depend on what the player wants to do with their character. <br /><br />I never said I wanted to do the DPS of a predator. Long ago, someone asked what was the difference between a swashbuckler and a brigand. It was explained to me that brigs make the raid do more DPS on the mob and that the swashbuckers made the mob do less DPS on the raid. This was great for fights with the swashbuckler being in the MT group, because the hate transfer to the MT helped the tank hold aggro, and it was also helping the MT healers to keep their tank alive because of the constant debuffs that the swashbuckler was putting on the mob. <br /><br />Then...things changed...to the point that swashbuckler debuffs didn't matter anymore, and most swashbucklers betrayed to brigand. Brigands got the scales tipped in their favor, and even started to get skills that used to be swashbuckler-only (like AoE block, only that the brigands got a better AoE block). AoE fights stopped seriously happening on raid fights, and it's only benefit showed up for trash clearing. Since brigands were better for single target DPS, they end up with another advantage over swashbucklers.<br /><br />Gah...sorry for the long windedness of my comments. I'm just tired of feeling like I'm not being raid-worthy, even though my guild has never asked me to go brigand. I just know that as soon as we added a full time brigand to our raid force, our progression kicked in and we were able to get over the hump on a few mobs that stood in our way. Had I gone brigand years ago, this wouldn't have been an issue. I'm just too stubborn of a person and too comfortable playing a class that I've played since launch. I have a lot of time and effort put into my swashbuckler, and I just don't think I'd have the same enjoyment with my character if I turned him into a dirty brigand.

Ruckus
10-29-2015, 10:06 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arco"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arco said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274419#post-6274419" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">If swash utility isn't addressed, then they'll never be desired in raids until you make them a T1 dps, is the issue I see...<br /> <br />At this point... even the low utility class, Ranger, brings better utility to the raid than a swash, since a brig will already be in the raid.<br /> <br />I'm for adjusting swash dps, but if nothing is done about their utility, I'll still see them not wanted by raids.<br />Just out parsing the brigands won't make raids want a swash.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>But if a swashy was made T1 like assassins and rangers, and brought nothing to the debuff table like a brigand, then a swashy could replace an assassin or ranger. Same thing could be done to beastlords, if the devs don't have time to REALLY address the swashy and BL classes. <br /><br />At this point, I don't care what my role is...it can be T2 DPS with raid-worthy debuffs (like a brig), or it can be T1 DPS like a predator with their DPS power and lack of debuffs.<br /><br />Long ago, the original EQ2 devs over-planned with 24 (now 26) classes. They went big, and all they ended up doing was causing more work down the line for the EQ2 devs that are currently having to deal with class balance issues. Playstyle-wise, all we needed was ranger, rogue, bard, beastlord. If you wanted to play a backstabbing class, you picked the rogue (not assassin, swashbuckler, brigand).

ZUES
10-29-2015, 10:09 PM
Who says that ANY class is supposed to be T1 dps? Templars haven't been flavor of the month yet so maybe it's their turn. <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" />

Errrorr
10-29-2015, 10:43 PM
Make Swash and BL T1 dps, remove HP Debuffs and make Brigs T2.<br /> <br />1 Brig per raid, 2 more contested spots for 4 classes. Perhaps then we'd see some proper competition for spots, and not just who brought a HP debuff.

Ruckus
10-29-2015, 11:08 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274592#post-6274592" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Who says that ANY class is supposed to be T1 dps? Templars haven't been flavor of the month yet so maybe it's their turn. <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />T1, T2, T3 was from so long ago, and eventually it got squashed...but not really. In theory, wizard/warlock and assassin/ranger were supposed to be T1, but they were supposed to offer little to no debuffs. Necro/conjy and brig/swash were supposed to be T2 DPS, but offer some decent debuffs. Bards and chanters were supposed to be T3 DPS, but offer debuffs and buffs.<br /> <br />Then AAs happened. Then a certain dev (no longer with the company) made his class/race OP. Certain classes got their debuffs made into poo and others got their debuffs sprinkled with shiny sparkles. Beastlords showed up, and were OP, then nerfed down to their current state.<br /><br />As it stands now, summoners vs. rogues are not in the same range in regards to debuffs or DPS.

ZUES
10-30-2015, 01:16 AM
Rogues and Summoners should be T1 dps this xpac. Garbage bag wearing warlocks, wizzies and sins, ranjas have been too OP for too long. It's our turn to shine. <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

Caith
10-30-2015, 02:50 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274592#post-6274592" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Who says that ANY class is supposed to be T1 dps?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I do... <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" />

Genghes
10-30-2015, 02:59 AM
any class you say.....

Alethus
10-30-2015, 03:08 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274767#post-6274767" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I do... <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>So, can Troubies finally see some love????

Ruckus
10-30-2015, 03:20 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274767#post-6274767" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I do... <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />So any sort of plan being worked on for the near future in regards to swashbucklers and beastlords being helped a bit to be considered raid-worthy? Plenty of people who do not play either class have supported this request over the past year. We were hoping that this upcoming expansion and the scout class revamps would have given us a little love, only for it to be "nothing new here" in regards to our classes.

Rhapsodic1
10-30-2015, 03:47 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274767#post-6274767" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I do... <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>4 1/2 pages of feedback and concerns with scout classes and this is the only response we get? awesome

Meirril
10-30-2015, 03:50 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Rhapsodic1"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Rhapsodic1 said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274855#post-6274855" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">4 1/2 pages of feedback and concerns with scout classes and this is the only response we get? awesome</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Maybe if someone posted something about a bug it would get a response? Honestly there is nothing new posted in thread.

Daray
10-30-2015, 05:34 AM
<b>Dirge: Zander's Choral Rebuff: </b>Increases Noxious Damage done to the target encounter.<br /> <br />Btw, Zander's is a shared bard ability, so troubs are getting that change too since it is on the base ability. Almost maintained vulnerability debuffs are pretty powerful (no idea if this stacks between multiple bards), but it might be more balanced if it were vs. all magical damage types (since this affects spell-based classes too).

Caith
10-30-2015, 05:41 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Daray"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Daray said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274901#post-6274901" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content"><b>Dirge: Zander's Choral Rebuff: </b>Increases Noxious Damage done to the target encounter.<br /> <br />Btw, Zander's is a shared bard ability, so troubs are getting that change too since it is on the base ability. Almost maintained vulnerability debuffs are pretty powerful (no idea if this stacks between multiple bards), but it might be more balanced if it were vs. all magical damage types (since this affects spell-based classes too).</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />It's a shared ability, but the enhancements are class specific. Dirge's get noxious, Troub's get Arcane.

Caith
10-30-2015, 05:43 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274905#post-6274905" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">It's a shared ability, but the enhancements are class specific. Dirge's get noxious, Troub's get Arcane.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Whiiiiich, wasn't on the Troub list. Woops.

Daray
10-30-2015, 05:45 AM
Hmm, patch notes don't/didn't state any changes to that ability for troubs. Does the vulnerability portion stack between multiple bards of the same-type? And rather than omit elemental damage completely, perhaps it ought to be included on the troub one, or zander's just affect all magical.

Caith
10-30-2015, 05:48 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Daray"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Daray said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274908#post-6274908" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Hmm, patch notes don't/didn't state any changes to that ability for troubs. Does the vulnerability portion stack between multiple bards of the same-type? And rather than omit elemental damage completely, perhaps it ought to be included on the troub one, or zander's just affect all magical.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Elemental reduction isn't being added to bards.<br /> <br /><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Daray"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Daray said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274908#post-6274908" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Hmm, patch notes don't/didn't state any changes to that ability for troubs. Does the vulnerability portion stack between multiple bards of the same-type? .</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>And yes

Uncle
10-30-2015, 06:20 AM
Battle Cry - Grants the target a Multi Attack to Potency conversion<br /> <br />is there going to be a change to the war runes to reflect this as well

Caith
10-30-2015, 06:31 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Uncle"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Uncle said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274932#post-6274932" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Battle Cry - Grants the target a Multi Attack to Potency conversion<br /> <br />is there going to be a change to the war runes to reflect this as well</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Why would a class enhancement be added to a war rune?

Neiloch
10-30-2015, 07:16 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274912#post-6274912" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Elemental reduction isn't being added to bards.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I suppose I might be reading into this but this seems to indicate its being added to someone else or is already accounted for.

Doomey
10-30-2015, 07:28 AM
just fyi the tooltip on Zander's for dirges says it reduces nox dmg to target encounter. should say increases. hopefully just a display error

Caith
10-30-2015, 07:34 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Doomey"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Doomey said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274951#post-6274951" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">just fyi the tooltip on Zander's for dirges says it reduces nox dmg to target encounter. should say increases. hopefully just a display error</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />No, it was increasing on the first checkin, was fixed in a later build but that won't be on beta until later tomorrow.

Boli
10-30-2015, 10:47 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274935#post-6274935" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Why would a class enhancement be added to a war rune?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I think the issue here is with Screams of Battle (<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/340145221" target="_blank" class="externalLink" rel="nofollow">http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/340145221</a>) - right now battle cry is better buff (just) but since not every class is guaranteed a dirge in the group to BC them they often adorn this run. When I group with my adorn I often find the best targets for BC are already covered by this rune so I often keep BC cast on myself rather than cast on the other undergeared scout who will do less dps than myself and will die a lot forcing a lot of recasts.<br /> <br />Now BC is going to be better you are just going to end up in the "gimmie gimmie gimmie" culture of scouts arguing over time compression... sorry I meant battle cry. and since the new BC will be MUCH better than the rune instead of vastly min-max scouts are not going to adorn it and going to be sending increasing irate /tells to the dirge to cast BC on them - and since it is a potency conversion the mages are going to join in as well.<br /> <br />I suggest this should go one of two ways:<br /> <br />1. When you cast this buff on someone else you are also granted the effects yourself - this way the dirge doesn't feel left out when his own abilities are being auctioned off in the group chat.<br /> <br />2. This ability is now self only but a lesser effect (which stacks with runes such as screams of battle) is spread around the group as an addition.<br /> <br />Now I know bards are all in favor of helping their fellow players out but this patch is to help dirge DPS... and may just end up helping someone elses instead. In fact one of these two steps (I prefer the group sharing ability) could be done to other abilities cast on a single player, Upbeat Tempo, Time Compression, Battle Cry, Vigor,<br /> <br />--------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br />Now lets talk about the confront fear change... first of all I like it but it just changed into Jester's cap with multiple/complicated macros with players demanding this buff at always the wrong time for the bard.<br /> <br />Oration of Sacrifice if the trigger is large enough there may be cases of players demanding to have this cast on them all the time ruining its ability as a fast quick emergency heal (unless of course the damage is attributed to the dirge?)<br /> <br />Now I'm all for helping your fellow player and all that but these two changes just added an edge of frustration to the dirge - I'm hoping at the least the new effects also translate to buffing the dirge as well<br /> <br />Oh... and for the love of all that is holy reduce the base cast speed on cacophony of blades its a short duration group buff with a 30s recast - with all the jesters cap 2.0 (CF) and possible jesters cap 3.0 (OoS) to cycle through dirges could just end up standing with autoatatck on casting temp buffs and rez and lamenting when the class was enjoyable to play

Errrorr
10-30-2015, 11:52 AM
ABILITIES<br />Troubador<br />Energizing Ballad - Will now grant the target a Flurry to Potency Conversion - <span style="color: #ff0000">This baffles me. This ability is on such a long reuse timer and such a specific function, I can't see it being specced much still. Perhaps consider making it groupwide and it'd be more effective/Utility.</span><br />Jester's Cap -Greatly Increase damage on Jester's Ruse<br />Arcane Symphony - Will grant Increased Arcane resist for the Troubador's group - <span style="color: #ff0000">To the group, or to the raid? The buff is currently raidwide.</span><br />Elemental Converto - Will grant Increased Elemental resist for the Troubador's group - <span style="color: #ff0000">To the group, or to the raid? The buff is currently raidwide.</span><br />Countersong - Will buff the caster's group with Potency and Ability Modifier - <span style="color: #ff0000">Reuse on this ability is so large, I can't see it being classed as much utility.</span><br />Demoralizing Processional - Will buff the caster's group with Final Ability Damage for spells <br />Zander's Choral Rebuff - Increases Arcane Damage done to the target encounter - <span style="color: #ff0000">Will the Elemental version be given to another class (Chanters maybe?). Otherwise there will be an imbalance for mages using elemental.</span><br /><br />Dirge<br />Confront Fear - Grants the target an Ability Reuse to Potency conversion - <span style="color: #ff0000">See energising ballad. But considering the ability is generally used when rezzing someone, would it not make more sense to grant a HP boost or damage reduction after taking a rez?</span><br />Clara's Chaotic Cacophony - Grants the caster's group Final Ability Damage for combat arts<br />Oration of Sacrifice - Grants a single trigger damage spell to the target - <span style="color: #ff0000">Without seeing the damage seems a little strange. For a heal that is so rarely used, it'd have to be a massive damage amount to be used.</span><br />Noxious Symphony - Grants Increased Noxious resist for the Dirge's group - <span style="color: #ff0000">See comments earlier on Troub versions.</span><br />Battle Cry - Grants the target a Multi Attack to Potency conversion <span style="color: #ff0000">- I like this one. BC needed a boost as it was. </span><br />Zander's Choral Rebuff - Increases Noxious Damage done to the target encounter - <span style="color: #ff0000">Will the Elemental version be given to another class (Chanters maybe?). Otherwise there will be an imbalance for mages using elemental.</span>

Errrorr
10-30-2015, 12:01 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Boli"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Boli said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274975#post-6274975" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Now BC is going to be better you are just going to end up in the "gimmie gimmie gimmie" culture of scouts arguing over time compression... sorry I meant battle cry. and since the new BC will be MUCH better than the rune instead of vastly min-max scouts are not going to adorn it and going to be sending increasing irate /tells to the dirge to cast BC on them - and since it is a potency conversion the mages are going to join in as well. <span style="color: #ff0000">Since BC is only groupwide, and most groups with a dirge only have 1 DPS scout, I don't think it'll be a huge issue. Dirges may have to start wearing Screams of Battle again if they are sensible.</span><br /> <br />I suggest this should go one of two ways:<br /> <br />1. When you cast this buff on someone else you are also granted the effects yourself - this way the dirge doesn't feel left out when his own abilities are being auctioned off in the group chat. - <span style="color: #ff0000">A utility class is there to aid the group, not themselves. Dirges can wear Screams and gain most of the BC benefits. The same as Chanters with EV.</span><br /> <br />2. This ability is now self only but a lesser effect (which stacks with runes such as screams of battle) is spread around the group as an addition. - <span style="color: #ff0000">Changing it self only completely destroys the idea of utility. Leave it as it is as a 1 target buff, for reasons above.</span><br /> <br />Now I know bards are all in favor of helping their fellow players out but this patch is to help dirge DPS... and may just end up helping someone elses instead. In fact one of these two steps (I prefer the group sharing ability) could be done to other abilities cast on a single player, Upbeat Tempo, Time Compression, Battle Cry, Vigor, <span style="color: #ff0000">- This patch isn't to help bards DPS, it is to help Bards utility. </span><br /> <br />--------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br />Now lets talk about the confront fear change... first of all I like it but it just changed into Jester's cap with multiple/complicated macros with players demanding this buff at always the wrong time for the bard. - <span style="color: #ff0000">Make it apply only to someone who gets cured of Rez Sickness in my opinion. Otherwise dirges just have another buff to rotate every 20s.</span><br /> <br />Now I'm all for helping your fellow player and all that but these two changes just added an edge of frustration to the dirge - I'm hoping at the least the new effects also translate to buffing the dirge as well. <span style="color: #ff0000">Increasing Dirge DPS should come from a base boost to CA's, not by giving them self utility temps. Otherwise it won't scale well going forwards.</span></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>

Boli
10-30-2015, 12:34 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274982#post-6274982" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content"><span style="color: #ff0000">A utility class is there to aid the group, not themselves.</span></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>There is a huge discrepancy between added utility and buffing the group and that being your sole reason for being in the group.<br /> <br />Its the same way with the thinking that healers *only* heal and cure and tanks *only* taunting. Utility classes should boost group DPS both singularly and as a group but the fun part of playing such a class is doing that as a sideshow to your own DPS.<br /> <br />They'll never be #1 deeps at all but my best time of playing a dirge is is rotating the buffs and debuffs but all the while snapping at the heals of the T1 DPS classes.<br /> <br />There is nothing fun about rotating single target buffs, and group buffs - adding a "mirror effect" so the bard gains the effects (or a version of the effects) when they buff a target will go a long way to making the class more fun to play when you toggle on autoattack and start cycling through your hotbar of macros.<br /> <br />increased CA damage means little if you are going to be spending your entire time buffing.

Errrorr
10-30-2015, 12:51 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Boli"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Boli said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274989#post-6274989" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">They'll never be #1 deeps at all but my best time of playing a dirge is is rotating the buffs and debuffs but all the while snapping at the heals of the T1 DPS classes.<br /> <br />increased CA damage means little if you are going to be spending your entire time buffing.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Bards should be snapping at the heels of T2 DPS maybe, but definitely not T1.<br /> <br />Rotating Buffs is hardly a major issue, but my feedback on the Dirge changes above still applies. Confront Fear should only apply any buffs on a Rez cure, to avoid that exact issue. It's no different to when you used to have to rotate Gravitas round 4 different healers every 30s.

Boli
10-30-2015, 01:21 PM
Well I've always been in the camp of only two tiers of DPS:<br /> <br />True DPS classes in T1<br />Everyone else in T2 - they have other roles other than pure DPS but they do deal active DPS as well<br /> <br />so a T1 DPS slacking off/badly played/geared would be beaten by a T2 DPS working hard - its happened in a few expansions (Sentinal's Fate best example)<br /> <br />As for rotating buffs - group buffs no problem, click, forget focus on something else, single target buffs are just plain annoying.<br /> <br />[either selecting manually, using UI click to cast or a macro]<br />Click, hmmm not working<br />* check where they are, can you see them, are you in range?<br />* perhaps they have it already cast / under an immunity? - will try again later<br />* hmmm, maybe a piece of gear or an adorn?<br />* oh they died<br />* Oh, I died<br />* wait someone has died, let me go and rez<br />* assassin in just sent me a /tell guess i have to buff him first<br />* Assassin just died now, he need the other buffs cast on him<br />* Bah, another death<br />* oh ***** the tank is in the red.. where is that endline I never use?.... too late.<br />* accept the rez so I can confront fear on you dammit; stop AFKing!!!<br />* WTF collection piece just popped up stop looting shiny in the fight!<br />* healer asking for gravitas?... old macro?<br />* oh fight is over where did my group go?<br /> <br />OK, the above is a bad example but single target utility is NOT fun

Errrorr
10-30-2015, 01:32 PM
You make casting single target buffs/temps sound more effort than it is.<br /> <br />As long as buff doesnt have immunity (Which basically nothing does any more), you have 1 macro, you add multiple people to it in order. It'll cast on top person in macro, if they aren't there/in range, it'll cast on 2nd.<br /> <br />That is 1 button to press every 22.5s for Confront Fear, and 1 for Oration of Sacrifice. Even your rebuffing people on death is Battle Cry or Hate gain, 2 buffs total. Try playing an Illy where you have EV, TC, Syngergism x3, IA, AoI, and whatever else.<br /> <br />And saying all pure dps classes are in the same tier of DPS is nonsense. Ask a swashy to parse like a Warlock/Assassin, and they'll laugh at you.

Estarion
10-30-2015, 01:48 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274952#post-6274952" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">No, it was increasing on the first checkin, was fixed in a later build but that won't be on beta until later tomorrow.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Tell us please what you plan to do with beastlords?<br />I've been hear too many times that you'll look at it, then that you'll bring it up to a frontier of t1 dps lvl. <br />So what exactly does it mean?<br />I've seen only an advantages boost. And you know with all my BL experience I can say it's obviously not enough.<br />Will we ever get a blue advantage? Would you fix an useless Chillbarier? It stucks at DoV expansion effective value. Why Devour heals an enemy? Yes it's a little but still wierd. Why Feral Charge can't be cast on the move? It's very annoying. Why our Primals have so terrible hit rates? Especially AOE ones? I can't get it why area of effect ability can be blocked or parried by trashy adds not with ae blocker but avoidance check. How is it possible at all? <span style="font-size: x-small">While I played the brigand I honestly can't remember a single time when my Blinding Dust had missed. Not once.</span> Why Draconic Breath has a 4 target restriction that makes it worse than even standard Luclin's Pain? What is planned to do with savagery? It is draining too much while laggy and it will drain more thank your new reset procs. No other class gets hit by this way but we are. What is planned to do with Feral Rampage? Those stacks are too hard to get and maintain and too easy to lost that makes it worthless vs stuns/knockbacks/and other scripts, i.e. on every hard encounters. But it's a meaningful part of our primal abilities effectivity. <br />Besides that what is planned to do with utility? Will we ever get a hate transfer? Any buffs? Debuffs? Our Chilling Claws is definitely the worst scout group buff ever exists. As our HP debuff. Why our self buff miss a 3.3k+ of magical resists compared to other scout self buffs? While raid leaders arranges a genocide to all whose resists are not enough you just makes such a disparity. It's another cent cast on the balance to not take a BL in raid.<br />I'm doubt very much that our class prestige item will fix all and every of these issues.<br />Almost ten days of beta and I can't see any meaningfull changes to beastlord.

Jrel
10-30-2015, 02:00 PM
<i>Demoralizing Processional - Will buff the caster's group with Final Ability Damage for spells</i><br /> <br /><i>Clara's Chaotic Cacophony - Grants the caster's group Final Ability Damage for combat arts</i><br /> <br />Both these abilities should give the caster's group <b>Final Ability Damage for combat arts AND spells</b>.<br /> <br />We'll always end up in heroics or raids with the "odd" group or two of an extra caster or melee in a melee or caster group, or a melee group getting a troub, or caster group getting a dirge. Rather than some classes getting left out because of their choice of class or group makeup, or because people just want to group and play to have fun, change these abilities so that they affect spells AND combat arts.<br />_____________________<br /> <br />Another Proposal: <br />I'm also in agreement with the above posts where the single target spells of the bards (and even other utility spells of other classes, coercers/illusionists) should be group-wide buffs so that no single class is favored anymore. With the addition of these single-target spells, in some guilds, you're going to have a few out of the many, monopolizing buffs, padding their already "elite" parse; making other players in the same tier look like they're doing a terrible job compared to the uber-buffed player, when they might actually be doing a better job than the monopolizer. You see that one player doing 15%+ more damage than the raid because they get all the good buffs? Now you're making the gap even further. Let's change our current single-target buff paradigm for utility classes and give the entire group some love. By doing this, it equalizes the "playing field", (and except for some OP items) enables a good player to outshine an average player, and lets the whole group enjoy the good buffs rather than a few.<br /> <br />If no consensus can be made to allow groups to get the same buff as the main target, how about giving the group a lesser version of the same buff (75% of the original) while the main target still benefits from the full version?

Boli
10-30-2015, 02:07 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275000#post-6275000" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">That is 1 button to press every 22.5s for Confront Fear, and 1 for Oration of Sacrifice. Even your rebuffing people on death is Battle Cry or Hate gain, 2 buffs total. Try playing an Illy where you have EV, TC, Syngergism x3, IA, AoI, and whatever else.<br /> <br />And saying all pure dps classes are in the same tier of DPS is nonsense. Ask a swashy to parse like a Warlock/Assassin, and they'll laugh at you.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Have and play an illy as well - and whilst the macro system works (I use it myself) it is far more effective in a guild raid when at least you are assured of the same/similar names in the group; playing with alts & pickups it gets more convoluted as you are constantly swapping the order around as it becomes more apparent that some people are more skilled that others at certain classes.<br /> <br />And once you get the perfect cast order down - the group swaps and changes as the instance is over.<br /> <br />As for swashies parsing as a T1 - this I also believe either the debuffs should matter enough to keep them in T2 or move them up to T1. (although most likely go the debuff angle as brigands would grumble if swashies became T1) as it stands swashbuckler debuffs are "not required"; and their DPS is "not high enough" to warrant a place in a regular raid/group spot) - one needs to change.

Alethus
10-30-2015, 02:33 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274952#post-6274952" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">No, it was increasing on the first checkin, was fixed in a later build but that won't be on beta until later tomorrow.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Hmmm... as of 9:20am October 30, 2015 eastern time, Zander's Choral Rebuff V is saying (I'm a Troub):<br /> <br />Reduces noxious damage done to target encounter by 1.68%.<br /> <br />There is nothing about increasing arcane damage done to target encounter on it, so I am supposed to debuff the resists, but then make the target encounter take less noxious damage, and do no additional arcane damage.<br /> <br />I could very easily see being asked not to cast this in a raid where there are a majority of disease/poision damage types with the way it is worded.

Caith
10-30-2015, 02:52 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Alethus"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Alethus said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275021#post-6275021" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Hmmm... as of 9:20am October 30, 2015 eastern time, Zander's Choral Rebuff V is saying (I'm a Troub):<br /> <br />Reduces noxious damage done to target encounter by 1.68%.<br /> <br />There is nothing about increasing arcane damage done to target encounter on it, so I am supposed to debuff the resists, but then make the target encounter take less noxious damage, and do no additional arcane damage.<br /> <br />I could very easily see being asked not to cast this in a raid where there are a majority of disease/poision damage types with the way it is worded.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Last nights build was a ninja build in the middle of these changes being checked in, I don't think most of the troub changes went with it, those patch notes are intended for today's build.

Nkito
10-30-2015, 02:56 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Jrel"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Jrel said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275008#post-6275008" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I'm also in agreement with the above posts where the single target spells of the bards (and even other utility spells of other classes, coercers/illusionists) should be group-wide buffs so that no single class is favored anymore. With the addition of these single-target spells, in some guilds, you're going to have a few out of the many, monopolizing buffs, padding their already "elite" parse; making other players in the same tier look like they're doing a terrible job compared to the uber-buffed player, when they might actually be doing a better job than the monopolizer. You see that one player doing 15%+ more damage than the raid because they get all the good buffs? Now you're making the gap even further. Let's change our current single-target buff paradigm for utility classes and give the entire group some love. By doing this, it equalizes the "playing field", (and except for some OP items) enables a good player to outshine an average player, and lets the whole group enjoy the good buffs rather than a few.<br /> <br />If no consensus can be made to allow groups to get the same buff as the main target, how about giving the group a lesser version of the same buff (75% of the original) while the main target still benefits from the full version?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I think this would make quality of life better for everyone, and I don't really see a negative in this suggestion or a reason not to do this. Values may need to be lowered compared to the single target version but except for hate modifying abilities or others that should not hit everyone this is a win/win.

Daray
10-30-2015, 03:20 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6274912#post-6274912" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Elemental reduction isn't being added to bards.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>It makes me sad to see this go to swashbucklers, because ultimately that means we probably won't have it in the raid at all. Even if you could somehow find room for a swash in your raid setup, you likely aren't going to be running 2 swashes like you would each of the bards.<br /> <br />Edit: Or wtb a way of changing my ability based damage type.

Caith
10-30-2015, 03:29 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Daray"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Daray said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275041#post-6275041" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">It makes me sad to see this go to swashbucklers, because ultimately that means we probably won't have it in the raid at all. Even if you could somehow find room for a swash in your raid setup, you likely aren't going to be running 2 swashes like you would each of the bards.<br /> <br />Edit: Wtb a way of changing my ability based damage type.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Not giving a desirable effect to a class because they aren't perceived as desirable would seem fairly counter productive.

Daray
10-30-2015, 03:37 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275043#post-6275043" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Not giving a desirable effect to a class because they aren't perceived as desirable would seem fairly counter productive.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Any reason for just not making these vulnerability debuffs vs all or vs all magical instead? That way you keep the desirability levels without punishing certain damage-type classes at the same time.

Caith
10-30-2015, 03:49 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Daray"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Daray said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275047#post-6275047" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Any reason for just not making these vulnerability debuffs vs all or vs all magical instead? That way you keep the desirability levels without punishing certain damage-type classes at the same time.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />The same reason we don't give all bard buffs to assassins.<br />There is a significant difference between adding incentive to bringing a lower tier DPS class or two along to the party and punishing a T1 DPS class.

Daray
10-30-2015, 04:00 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275057#post-6275057" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">The same reason we don't give all bard buffs to assassins.<br />There is a significant difference between adding incentive to bringing a lower tier DPS class or two along to the party and punishing a T1 DPS class.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Maybe I wasn't that clear with that I was getting at. Currently you have given stacking vulnerability debuffs to specific scouts (nox to dirge of which raids usually run 2, arcane to troubs of which raids usually run 2, and elemental/physical to swashbucklers of which raids currently run 0). I haven't seen the final damage amount on MV (and if it is still limited to CAs) but being group only I doubt it will suddenly make them a desirable class to the point where you'd want 2 (so as a result elemental / physical classes will suffer relatively - elemental more so because physical classes can just change their damage type on their weapons/CAs).<br /> <br />Regarding my feedback on the vulnerability debuff assignments specifically, I think you could achieve your desired goal by adjusting these vulnerability debuffs such that each class' vulnerability debuff is <i>not</i> aligned to a specifc damage type and<i> instead</i> affects all damage types (or all magical types). For example, bards are an already desired class (1 per group), so give them a lesser vulnerability debuff that affects all or all magical.... swashbucklers are (currently) not a desired class at all (and that might change but I'd have to think about raid builds a bit more) so give them a higher value vulnerability debuff vs all.<br /> <br />Hope that comes across as a bit clearer.

ZUES
10-30-2015, 04:01 PM
These are some awesome changes. Thank you Caith. Hopefully we'll see more swashies running around Norrath as a result.

Ruckus
10-30-2015, 04:02 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275043#post-6275043" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Not giving a desirable effect to a class because they aren't perceived as desirable would seem fairly counter productive.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />So are you going to do SOMETHING to make swashbucklers and beastlords desirable for raiding? It's been several years now for this issue to be addressed. There are people who do not play either class, and they are also voicing their opinions that something should be done to help both classes. <br /><br />We're not asking to be turned into the newest Flavor of the Month and be OP and be T1+ DPS. We're just begging to have some of our temp buffs make sense. To have our debuffs matter as much as what you see from brigands. Look back on old threads in the main forum scout section. Or ask Gninja, because I know players like Katanallama provided him excellent feedback on how you can go about helping swashbucklers out.<br /><br />It's really disheartening to keep playing this class year after year, and feeling like I'm not contributing 100% to my guild's raid force. If I betrayed to brigand, that would fix the problem, but my enjoyment of the game just wouldn't be the same as a brigand. <br /><br />#swashbucklerlivesmatter

Ruckus
10-30-2015, 04:05 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275070#post-6275070" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">These are some awesome changes. Thank you Caith. Hopefully we'll see more swashies running around Norrath as a result.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Wait what? What changes? Did I miss a post? I can't get into beta because of the log in issues. What did I miss, Zues?

Ruckus
10-30-2015, 04:07 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Boli"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Boli said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275009#post-6275009" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">As for swashies parsing as a T1 - this I also believe either the debuffs should matter enough to keep them in T2 or move them up to T1. (although most likely go the debuff angle as brigands would grumble if swashies became T1) as it stands swashbuckler debuffs are "not required"; and their DPS is "not high enough" to warrant a place in a regular raid/group spot) - one needs to change.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />This.

Reevar
10-30-2015, 04:10 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Ruckus"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Ruckus said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275075#post-6275075" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Wait what? What changes? Did I miss a post? I can't get into beta because of the log in issues. What did I miss, Zues?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><span style="font-size: 18px"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #444444"><b>Swashbuckler</b></span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #444444">Pirate's Fancy - Increased the damage granted to area effect abilities</span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #444444">Thieving essence - Deals Increased damage and grants more ability modifier to the group.</span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #444444">Shadow - Increases Physical Damage done to the target encounter</span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #444444">Dagger Storm - Will deal more damage</span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #444444">Marauder's Vaunt - Increased Final Ability Damage granted to group members.</span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #444444">Double Cross - Increases Elemental Damage done to the target encounter</span></span></span>

ZUES
10-30-2015, 04:11 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Ruckus"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Ruckus said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275073#post-6275073" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">So are you going to do SOMETHING to make swashbucklers and beastlords desirable for raiding? It's been several years now for this issue to be addressed. There are people who do not play either class, and they are also voicing their opinions that something should be done to help both classes.<br /> <br />We're not asking to be turned into the newest Flavor of the Month and be OP and be T1+ DPS. We're just begging to have some of our temp buffs make sense. To have our debuffs matter as much as what you see from brigands. Look back on old threads in the main forum scout section. Or ask Gninja, because I know players like Katanallama provided him excellent feedback on how you can go about helping swashbucklers out.<br /> <br />It's really disheartening to keep playing this class year after year, and feeling like I'm not contributing 100% to my guild's raid force. If I betrayed to brigand, that would fix the problem, but my enjoyment of the game just wouldn't be the same as a brigand.<br /> <br />#swashbucklerlivesmatter</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Being flavor of the month isn't going to increase desirability for swashies? I respectfully disagree. These swash changes just opened up two raid slots in every raid force. Marauders Vaunt stacks, that alone justifies the second swashy spot. Not to mention the Swashy Swipe is a tab bit better than Brigs.

Ruckus
10-30-2015, 04:14 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275078#post-6275078" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Being flavor of the month isn't going to increase desirability for swashies? I respectfully disagree. These swash changes just opened up two raid slots in every raid force. Marauders Vaunt stacks, that alone justifies the second swashy spot. Not to mention the Swashy Swipe is a tab bit better than Brigs.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Thanks...glad to see some thought is going into this. I didn't see the update. ^.^

ZUES
10-30-2015, 04:17 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Ruckus"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Ruckus said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275080#post-6275080" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Thanks...glad to see some thought is going into this. I didn't see the update. ^.^</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Ya this is good news for swashy fans! Two big thumbs up!!!

Ruckus
10-30-2015, 04:18 PM
Thanks for finally hearing us and helping us along! Thanks to all the folks who have given feedback over the years. ^.^

Errrorr
10-30-2015, 04:32 PM
<span style="font-family: 'arial'"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #444444">Pirate's Fancy - Increased the damage granted to area effect abilities - <span style="color: #ff0000">This won't really help Swashies much on Single Target fights. If there are mostly them in the expac, Swashies will still need more. Perhaps a Warlock myth like buff.</span></span></span></span><br /><span style="font-family: 'arial'"><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #444444">Thieving essence - Deals Increased damage and grants more ability modifier to the group. - <span style="color: #ff0000">Fair enough.</span></span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #444444"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Shadow - Increases Physical Damage done to the target encounter - </span><span style="color: #ff0000">This is fine, as long as everyone doesnt change all their weapons to magic damage and make everything magic based like AoM.</span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #444444"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Dagger Storm - Will deal more damage - </span><span style="color: #ff0000">Fair enough.</span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #444444"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Marauder's Vaunt - Increased Final Ability Damage granted to group members. - </span><span style="color: #ff0000">Problem I see with this one, is that if you run a swashy in a raid, it's generally going to be in a MT group or similar. Meaning the people who get the benefit still remain low. Especially if it remains as Fighter/Scout CA's only as it was before?</span></span></span><br /><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #444444"><span style="font-family: 'arial'">Double Cross - Increases Elemental Damage done to the target encounter - <span style="color: #ff0000">Fair enough. Expected this for chanters but this works too. Is it going to be unfair on elemental type mages? I'd hope the swash % Increase is 2x the bard values.</span></span></span></span>

Yahtsee/Daesania
10-30-2015, 04:32 PM
Hmm. I may be able to go back swash if this pans out decently. Will have to test this for sure. Swash will always be my love though. something about swash that i just can't quit.

Neiloch
10-30-2015, 04:45 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275057#post-6275057" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">The same reason we don't give all bard buffs to assassins.<br />There is a significant difference between adding incentive to bringing a lower tier DPS class or two along to the party and punishing a T1 DPS class.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><i>A</i> T1 DPS class? By giving this debuff to swashies you just made conj's and wizards (rangers to a much lesser degree) dependent on a swash being in raid to keep up on debuffs compared to the troub and dirge ones and their damage types. At least with a Brig it was generalized raid wide DPS performance, all you've done is made it so a few classes suffer because you wanted to give a specialized Bard utility debuff to a Swash.<br /><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Daray"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Daray said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275067#post-6275067" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">For example, bards are an already desired class (1 per group), so give them a lesser vulnerability debuff that affects all or all magical.... swashbucklers are (currently) not a desired class at all (and that might change but I'd have to think about raid builds a bit more) so give them a higher value vulnerability debuff vs all.<br /> <br />Hope that comes across as a bit clearer.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>+1. All of them should really just be stacking magical vulnerability (or all damage in general) opposed to certain types of magic damage, not only would this squash balance concerns it would make the Swash version even more desirable. I was half expecting to see rangers get an elemental one tbh, pretty sure out of all the scouts we easily spit the most fire.<br /> <br />This re-integration of class bias for utility classes isn't something I look forward too either. EQ2 has already had the <b>PROBLEM</b> of requiring a 'quartet' for a proper group setup (tank, dps, heal, utility) opposed to the traditional trinity but with these types of changes that's being segmented even further. It was actually starting to be nice that I could be in a 'mage' group without significant performance loss but with these types of changes that is going to start fading away as well.<br /><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Jrel"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Jrel said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275008#post-6275008" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content"><i>Demoralizing Processional - Will buff the caster's group with Final Ability Damage for spells</i><br /> <br /><i>Clara's Chaotic Cacophony - Grants the caster's group Final Ability Damage for combat arts</i><br /> <br />Both these abilities should give the caster's group <b>Final Ability Damage for combat arts AND spells</b>.<br /> <br />We'll always end up in heroics or raids with the "odd" group or two of an extra caster or melee in a melee or caster group, or a melee group getting a troub, or caster group getting a dirge. Rather than some classes getting left out because of their choice of class or group makeup, or because people just want to group and play to have fun, change these abilities so that they affect spells AND combat arts.<br />_____________________<br /> <br />Another Proposal:<br />I'm also in agreement with the above posts where the single target spells of the bards (and even other utility spells of other classes, coercers/illusionists) should be group-wide buffs so that no single class is favored anymore. With the addition of these single-target spells, in some guilds, you're going to have a few out of the many, monopolizing buffs, padding their already "elite" parse; making other players in the same tier look like they're doing a terrible job compared to the uber-buffed player, when they might actually be doing a better job than the monopolizer. You see that one player doing 15%+ more damage than the raid because they get all the good buffs? Now you're making the gap even further. Let's change our current single-target buff paradigm for utility classes and give the entire group some love. By doing this, it equalizes the "playing field", (and except for some OP items) enables a good player to outshine an average player, and lets the whole group enjoy the good buffs rather than a few.<br /> <br />If no consensus can be made to allow groups to get the same buff as the main target, how about giving the group a lesser version of the same buff (75% of the original) while the main target still benefits from the full version?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>+ a lot for all of this.<br />Stop segmenting or specializing utility, it should be much more generalized. An assassin shouldn't be eating it with a wizard dominating when they are in the same exact group, for example.

Awesomeo
10-30-2015, 04:53 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote"> <aside> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">something about swash that i just can't quit</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I feel the same about Beasties, <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

ZUES
10-30-2015, 05:10 PM
I would love see Marauders Vaunt remain raidwide. I didn't catch that when I read it. It would be nice if it benefited healers and mages too. Channelers and melee healers are needing the effects of Marauders Vaunt too.

Ruckus
10-30-2015, 07:06 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275118#post-6275118" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I would love see Marauders Vaunt remain raidwide. I didn't catch that when I read it. It would be nice if it benefited healers and mages too. Channelers and melee healers are needing the effects of Marauders Vaunt too.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I usually get put in the MT group and sometimes with the 2nd or 3rd tank. We have 4 tanks on our roster, and 3 are reliable in regards to logging in and playing their classes well. For us, it all depends on who logs in for the night. It also depends on the fight on where they put me, but I'm usually with a zerker MT, defiler, templar, dirge, and coercer. If we are doing a fight that only needs 1 tank, the bruiser and SK are doing pretty good DPS. Perhaps I'd be better off in the bruiser's group and have the assassin in the MT group for hate transfer, so I can boost the bruiser's DPS. We'll see how things pan out after ToT starts, I guess.<br /> <br />I try to time my MV with the dirge's RO for their VC, even though MV was always up every 30s for me. I also had a raid-wide macro for MV, but I doubt if the other scouts or fighters paid much attention to it. There was no way we could get 4 bards timing their ROs with my MVs, so I just gave up on that and tried to help out my group's dirge. I'm rarely grouped with a melee healer (our channeler went brigand in the middle of AoM, and that's when our progression really happened for us).

Stimpelton
10-30-2015, 07:06 PM
Have the reuse times on the troub changes been reduced to be more practical? Countersong and EB are pretty long.

Bunshin
10-30-2015, 10:49 PM
The changes with thieving essence,shadow, and dagger storm are nice but those are shared abilities. Wouldn't want abilities shared with other classes to be bumped so it'll be a disparity between them. Would like to see mostly swash stuff bump so swash can be on their playing field as a class and not a class that has a handicap on certain abilities.<br />Pirate's Fancy - is that being switched or adding on ?(taking out the 2nd hit and just making it one big hit or keeping 2nd hit and increasing the dmg overall?)<br />Marauder's Vaunt - can it be changed back to an always on buff, trying to curtail temps unless the other 4 are going to be reduced.<br />Double cross, both Zander's - would like to say making swash apart of the bard club... lol but overall the increase damage in general be more promising instead of allocating by damage type(can we get a switch with the arcane dmg since swash debuffs arcane on our hangman's noose ability.)

Doomey
10-31-2015, 01:49 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Jrel"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Jrel said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275008#post-6275008" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content"><i>Demoralizing Processional - Will buff the caster's group with Final Ability Damage for spells</i><br /> <br /><i>Clara's Chaotic Cacophony - Grants the caster's group Final Ability Damage for combat arts</i><br /> <br />Both these abilities should give the caster's group <b>Final Ability Damage for combat arts AND spells</b>.<br /> <br />We'll always end up in heroics or raids with the "odd" group or two of an extra caster or melee in a melee or caster group, or a melee group getting a troub, or caster group getting a dirge. Rather than some classes getting left out because of their choice of class or group makeup, or because people just want to group and play to have fun, change these abilities so that they affect spells AND combat arts.<br />_____________________<br /> <br />Another Proposal:<br />I'm also in agreement with the above posts where the single target spells of the bards (and even other utility spells of other classes, coercers/illusionists) should be group-wide buffs so that no single class is favored anymore. With the addition of these single-target spells, in some guilds, you're going to have a few out of the many, monopolizing buffs, padding their already "elite" parse; making other players in the same tier look like they're doing a terrible job compared to the uber-buffed player, when they might actually be doing a better job than the monopolizer. You see that one player doing 15%+ more damage than the raid because they get all the good buffs? Now you're making the gap even further. Let's change our current single-target buff paradigm for utility classes and give the entire group some love. By doing this, it equalizes the "playing field", (and except for some OP items) enables a good player to outshine an average player, and lets the whole group enjoy the good buffs rather than a few.<br /> <br />If no consensus can be made to allow groups to get the same buff as the main target, how about giving the group a lesser version of the same buff (75% of the original) while the main target still benefits from the full version?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />This. As much as I like making loads of plat to give out battle cry I would much rather have a group buff even if it is a bit less effective. This is more of an issue with a troubador's mage group than dirge (since they have multiple "t1s" in group) however I think a balanced group buff > single target buff either way.<br /> <br />Would also like to see Clara's/demoralizing effect combat arts and spells instead of just CAs. I know you guys want to make the bards different and have different abilities but this would be a nice change to it so we aren't forced to have the perfect group and ultimately alienating someone in the group or raid because of group makeup. We sometimes have a scout that ends up in the mage group and it would be kind of lame for them not to benefit from this debuff.

Annabea
10-31-2015, 09:09 AM
Yea it looks like the swash change somehow removed damage from Dagger storm on other classes (well im assuming swashes have damage on it still, dont have one to check), BL and assy atleast also lost damage from it.

Annabea
10-31-2015, 09:27 AM
Made a buffer up swash to check quick:<br /> <br />Looks like swash is the only scout with damage on Dagger storm atm<br />Vaunt upgrade doesnt show up on examine at all (just says the same as on live about raid damages)<br />Double cross says the ele debuff absorbs one hit

Amaitae
10-31-2015, 01:05 PM
Marauder's Vaunt - Increased Final Ability Damage granted to group members.<br /> <br />1. its raidwide right now, im fine with that<br />2. but its not a permanent buff. 8s duration only.<br />3. it also affects only scouts and fighters and not priests and mages.<br /> <br />if it was a raidwide permanent buff it would definately bring swashbucklers back into raids.

Errrorr
10-31-2015, 01:18 PM
What scares me about all the scout changes coming is the following;<br /> <br /><ul><li>Most raids only have spots for 3 Scout dps, and 4 bards.</li><li>We have 2 bard classes, and 5 scout dps classes.</li><li>As it stands, Assassins/Brigs are almost a necessity due to their debuffs. The 3rd spot will then be a toss up between Ranger/Swash. 5% HP debuff from Ranger + Ranged DPS, <b>vs</b> Swashies new debuffs/utility.</li><li>Beastlords in their current state are still unlikely to get a look in.</li><li>Every guild has 4-6 Bards for raids, almost double the Scout DPS role, when there is only 2 classes vs 5 for that role.</li></ul>So effectively, we have 3 DPS classes (Swash/Ranger/BL) all competing for 1 raid spot, where as Assassins/Brigands can walk into a raid spot, as can bards.<br />Possible solutions I can see;<br /><ul><li>Work on the BL Spiritual stance, that they can substitute a bard just as effectively, as well being a decent T1 DPS. This would give far more reason to consider one on a guild roster.</li><li>Remove HP Debuffs. Doing this instantly makes Assassin/Ranger/Swash/Brig on a far more level playing field. Rangers would need some more utility of some sort though, and possibly assassins</li></ul>

ZUES
10-31-2015, 05:42 PM
So early this morning we formed a group of good players and blew up some heroics. There are some obvious changes to the swashy. First thing you'll notice on the parse is Dagger Storm. It rightfully pushed Hemo down. I do think they increased swash dps by about 10%. It's not overdone by any means. It feels balanced and personally I think they were good changes. Here is a parse so you can see for yourself. I included my stats so you can guage your potential. I'm in AoE spec and this is a heroic ZONEWIDE parse. Zerker, Mystic, Warden, Necro, Swash, Swash.<br /> <br /><img src="http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a538/Vectairy/zonewide%20heroic_zpsi6lf9qig.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" />

Bloodguts
10-31-2015, 05:59 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275713#post-6275713" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">What scares me about all the scout changes coming is the following;<br /> <br /><ul><li>Most raids only have spots for 3 Scout dps, and 4 bards.</li><li>We have 2 bard classes, and 5 scout dps classes.</li><li>As it stands, Assassins/Brigs are almost a necessity due to their debuffs. The 3rd spot will then be a toss up between Ranger/Swash. 5% HP debuff from Ranger + Ranged DPS, <b>vs</b> Swashies new debuffs/utility.</li><li>Beastlords in their current state are still unlikely to get a look in.</li><li>Every guild has 4-6 Bards for raids, almost double the Scout DPS role, when there is only 2 classes vs 5 for that role.</li></ul>So effectively, we have 3 DPS classes (Swash/Ranger/BL) all competing for 1 raid spot, where as Assassins/Brigands can walk into a raid spot, as can bards.<br /> <br />Possible solutions I can see;<br /><ul><li>Work on the BL Spiritual stance, that they can substitute a bard just as effectively, as well being a decent T1 DPS. This would give far more reason to consider one on a guild roster.</li><li>Remove HP Debuffs. Doing this instantly makes Assassin/Ranger/Swash/Brig on a far more level playing field. Rangers would need some more utility of some sort though, and possibly assassins</li></ul></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>why would rangers be competing for that third spot? they have the best debuff out of those 3 classes, and if you don't have it, you're missing out on a quicker kill of a raid boss.<br /> <br />+5% max health decrease is a much better debuff than anything the swashie could bring right now. and if for some reason they add some max health debuffs to swashies that is different from the brigand's, then you will want to bring those over mages then.

Carni
10-31-2015, 06:05 PM
People that can actually dps will always find a raid spot. What annoys me are classes that can dps but get mowed over by bards. Every expansion most dps classes need to explore gear/dps options and find out what works best for them, I expect this expansion to be no different in that regard. Heck, that's most of the fun I have with new content, finding what works best for me on the characters I enjoy playing.

Marq
10-31-2015, 06:06 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Bloodguts"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Bloodguts said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275877#post-6275877" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">why would rangers be competing for that third spot? they have the best debuff out of those 3 classes, and if you don't have it, you're missing out on a quicker kill of a raid boss.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Would think it depends on your raids overall make up, like having other hp debuffers that ppl usually forget are there (like SK, mystic, Necro, templar). and hp debuffs do have a cap still afterall.<br /> <br />Overall tho, would make many things much more balanced to just remove hp debuffs. Its just forcing ppl into having certain classes and punishing ppl who dont maybe have optimal setups since the raids are built to ppl having them.<br /> <br />And to chime what some ppl already said, Daggerstorm seems to be broken for most scouts (rogues apparently have damage on it, others dont)

Rhapsodic1
10-31-2015, 06:10 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Carni"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Carni said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275882#post-6275882" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">People that can actually dps will always find a raid spot. What annoys me are classes that can dps but get mowed over by bards. Every expansion most dps classes need to explore gear/dps options and find out what works best for them, I expect this expansion to be no different in that regard. Heck, that's most of the fun I have with new content, finding what works best for me on the characters I enjoy playing.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>What dps class is getting mowed over by bards?

Koko
10-31-2015, 06:18 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Marq"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Marq said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275883#post-6275883" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Would think it depends on your raids overall make up, like having other hp debuffers that ppl usually forget are there</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Bloodguts"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Bloodguts said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275877#post-6275877" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">why would rangers be competing for that third spot? ... +5% max health decrease is a much better debuff than anything the swashie could bring right now.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Skipping the math; %hp debuffs are exponentially better when stacked. As Bloodguts suggested this change does nothing for swashbucklers in raid; rangers have more damage, at range, and more utility through %hp debuffs.<br /><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote"> <aside> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Overall tho, would make many things much more balanced to just remove hp debuffs.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>This is a double-edged sword. Scouts are strictly more demanding than mages (i.e. short ranged, positionals, stealth gimmicks, AA timing, consumables, etc.). %hp debuffs have functioned as the lifesupport which keep their EncDPS values "in the same ballpark" as mages which are drastically easier to build around.<br /> <br />Remove the debuffs, keep mages/scouts in the same tier, and you get raids full of mages. Especially so with the newfound demand for chain patterns in other places (i.e. shaman, maybe bards).

Marq
10-31-2015, 06:24 PM
Yea it is a system so integrated now that it would prolly need its own dev team to pull out and rehash to something that resembles current situation.<br /> <br />But yeah agree that the changes alone dont give swash (or BL) much more chances of a raid spot unless there is a 4th scout slot. Do know some guild runs with it, and not all optimize setups. But for higher end raids, prolly not changing the priorities enough with these boosts.

Errrorr
10-31-2015, 06:26 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Bloodguts"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Bloodguts said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275877#post-6275877" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">why would rangers be competing for that third spot? they have the best debuff out of those 3 classes, and if you don't have it, you're missing out on a quicker kill of a raid boss.<br /> <br />+5% max health decrease is a much better debuff than anything the swashie could bring right now. and if for some reason they add some max health debuffs to swashies that is different from the brigand's, then you will want to bring those over mages then.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>That could easily change though. If you start having content with two mobs to burn, swashies get their HP debuff back.<br />If the benefit they are bringing dps wise is far better for the raid, even with a small drop in their own dos, they are on top.<br />Anything where a tank wants extra hate transfer (perhaps not apt if you have good tanks, but not ever raid does) swashies win again.<br />Offensive debuff a needed? 2x swipe needed? Swashies again.<br /><br />I'd like to see some reason for assassins not to be guaranteed a raid spot though sadly. HP debuffs are basically the only reason.

ZUES
10-31-2015, 06:35 PM
Well they more than doubled Marauders Vaunt and added like 3-4% increased elemental damage when Double Cross is on the mob(wizards rejoice!). That is a substantial increase in raidwide dps. We really won't know how substantial until we can raid with these changes. Maybe you guys raid testing can chime in on that? Before and after parses?

Errrorr
10-31-2015, 06:41 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275913#post-6275913" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Well they more than doubled Marauders Vaunt and added like 3-4% increased elemental damage when Double Cross is on the mob. That is a substantial increase in raidwide dps. We really won't know how substantial until we can raid with these changes. Maybe you guys raid testing can chime in on that? Before and after parses?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Flawed logic In the fact that who raided with a swashy before any changes?

ZUES
10-31-2015, 06:42 PM
We do.

Koko
10-31-2015, 06:42 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275899#post-6275899" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">If you start having content with two mobs to burn, swashies get their HP debuff back. ...Anything where a tank wants extra hate transfer ... Offensive debuff a needed? 2x swipe needed?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I'd simply run a second assassin/brigand, sorry swashies.

Bloodguts
10-31-2015, 06:49 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Marq"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Marq said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275883#post-6275883" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Would think it depends on your raids overall make up, like having other hp debuffers that ppl usually forget are there (like SK, mystic, Necro, templar). and hp debuffs do have a cap still afterall.<br /> <br />Overall tho, would make many things much more balanced to just remove hp debuffs. Its just forcing ppl into having certain classes and punishing ppl who dont maybe have optimal setups since the raids are built to ppl having them.<br /> <br />And to chime what some ppl already said, Daggerstorm seems to be broken for most scouts (rogues apparently have damage on it, others dont)</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I completely agree. Max HP debuffs shouldn't exist. <br /> <br />But as long as they exist, they are the single most important thing you want to bring to any raid.

Daray
10-31-2015, 07:03 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275913#post-6275913" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Well they ... added like 3-4% increased elemental damage when Double Cross is on the mob(wizards rejoice!). That is a substantial increase in raidwide dps.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Vulnerability debuffs (if they affect all damage types) do serve a similar function to maxhp debuffs .<br /> <br /> <br />However, the way the vulnerability debuff assignments themselves have been done will be a disadvantage to swashes...<br /> <br />(1) The physical vulnerability component (on Shadow - assuming that's what it is) is almost a non-factor, because all physical dealing class-types will just change the damage type on their weapons to nox or arcane (which also changes the damage type of their non-specific melee-based CAs).<br /> <br />(2) The elemental vulnerability debuff component alone won't be enough to sell the class from a debuff-utility aspect because it is something that will only affect a small sub-set of the raid's output (your conjuror, wizard, ranger and fury basically - and even then only a portion of those classes' output is actually elemental).<br /> <br />Sure, you can use the vulnerability multiplier as a substitute for maxhp debuffs, but in the case of these swash changes the physical is close to irrelevant and the elemental is of a rather minor benefit to raid output. It would need to be vulnerability vs all damage to make this a valid consideration for raid builds.

Tipperton
10-31-2015, 08:33 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote"> <aside> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">ABILITIES<br />Troubador<br />Energizing Ballad - Will now grant the target a Flurry to Potency Conversion<br />Jester's Cap -Greatly Increase damage on Jester's Ruse<br />Arcane Symphony - Will grant Increased Arcane resist for the Troubador's group<br />Elemental Converto - Will grant Increased Elemental resist for the Troubador's group<br />Countersong - Will buff the caster's group with Potency and Ability Modifier<br />Demoralizing Processional - Will buff the caster's group with Final Ability Damage for spells<br />Zander's Choral Rebuff - Increases Arcane Damage done to the target encounter<br /> <br />Dirge<br />Confront Fear - Grants the target an Ability Reuse to Potency conversion<br />Clara's Chaotic Cacophony - Grants the caster's group Final Ability Damage for combat arts<br />Oration of Sacrifice - Grants a single trigger damage spell to the target<br />Noxious Symphony - Grants Increased Noxious resist for the Dirge's group<br />Battle Cry - Grants the target a Multi Attack to Potency conversion<br />Zander's Choral Rebuff - Increases Noxious Damage done to the target encounter<br /> <br />Items and Equipment<br />Corrected stats on Handcrafted and Mastercrafted gear<br />Adornment sets should now properly apply with new adornments.<br />Better Part of Valor now increases health by 10%, instead of 10hp.<br />The guild buff banner will now set it's name to the guild's name.<br />Collection pieces may now be added to depots.<br />Piercing weapons can no longer be used by druids.<br /><a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?members/caith.262/" class="internalLink">Caith</a>, <a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/beta-update-notes-friday-october-30-2015.564962/" class="internalLink">Thursday at 10:44 PM</a> <a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?posts/6274880/report" class="internalLink">Report</a><br /><a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/beta-update-notes-friday-october-30-2015.564962/" class="internalLink">#1</a> Last edited by Caith, Thursday at 11:44 PM <a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?posts/6274880/like" class="internalLink">Like</a><br /><a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?members/zues.149/" class="internalLink">ZUES</a> and <a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?members/ironfiste.706114/" class="internalLink">Ironfiste</a> like this.<br /><ul><li><br /><span style="font-size: medium"><b><a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?members/caith.262/" class="internalLink"><span style="color: #ff0000">Caith</span></a><i>Developer</i></b></span><br /><br /><br /><b>New</b><br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">ABILITIES<br />Swashbuckler<br />Pirate's Fancy - Increased the damage granted to area effect abilities<br />Thieving essence - Deals Increased damage and grants more ability modifier to the group.<br />Shadow - Increases Physical Damage done to the target encounter<br />Dagger Storm - Will deal more damage<br />Marauder's Vaunt - Increased Final Ability Damage granted to group members.<br />Double Cross - Increases Elemental Damage done to the target encounter</div></li></ul></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><ul><li><div style="padding-left: 30px"><br /></div></li><li><div style="padding-left: 30px">So, I play a ranger, & I have Dagger storm. It used to do damage, now it does nothing. Did you break it intentionally? I get it that you wanted to increase its damage for some of the classes, but did you remove the damage from other classes now? They get the boost, we take the hit?</div></li></ul>

ZUES
10-31-2015, 09:11 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Bloodguts"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Bloodguts said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276003#post-6276003" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Single threat transfer which is almost necessary for any raid considering how unbalanced threat vs dps between fighters and other dps classes.<br /> <br />Plus, assassins have some amazing single target damage, let alone their AoE dps. Mostly this comes form Hemotoxin alone, but they definitely get the upper hand because of poisons and their other abilities that no other class gets. It'll be hard to take assassins off a permanent raid spot, while other classes can't even compete.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Hemo was nerfed on sins.

Errrorr
10-31-2015, 10:07 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Bloodguts"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Bloodguts said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276003#post-6276003" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Single threat transfer which is almost necessary for any raid considering how unbalanced threat vs dps between fighters and other dps classes.<br /> <br />Plus, assassins have some amazing single target damage, let alone their AoE dps. Mostly this comes form Hemotoxin alone, but they definitely get the upper hand because of poisons and their other abilities that no other class gets. It'll be hard to take assassins off a permanent raid spot, while other classes can't even compete.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Threat transfer is fair enough, but why should the two classes with Threat transfers not compete for that spot? If swashy DPS is bumped enough upwards, the main benefit to an assassin over a swashy is pure and simple HP Debuffs.<br /> <br />The class I still fear most for is Beastlord though, I mean is there really any chance of a guild considering one again this expac?

Koko
10-31-2015, 11:05 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276064#post-6276064" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">The class I still fear most for is Beastlord though, I mean is there really any chance of a guild considering one again this expac?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Nope;<br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">less damage,</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">less utility, and</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">less reliable.</div> <br />I feel really bad for everyone who was serious about beastlords making a comeback.Even<b><i> if </i></b>beastlord EncDPS was comparable to other scout's they <b><i>still</i></b> won't get a chance due to their shortcoming in utility/reliability.<br /> <br />Beastlords could gain a stacking 2% hp debuff /per primal and they <i><b>still </b></i><i><b>might</b></i><i><b> be bad compared to assassins</b></i> if scripts/threatgen don't let them play the game, and that assumes their damage is comparable post-ethereals <i><b>which I severely doubt</b></i>.

Neiloch
11-01-2015, 12:09 AM
The whole vulnerability thing is kind of a mess. Ever since we've been able to change damage type the idea of 'physical vulnerability' has been a joke. There's currently zero incentive for melee classes to stay 'physical' and something like a mob being immune to magic would just annoy the players greatly. I know auto is supposed to fall to the wayside but it changes the damage type of a lot of CA's as well.

Bloodguts
11-01-2015, 08:36 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275899#post-6275899" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">That could easily change though. If you start having content with two mobs to burn, swashies get their HP debuff back.<br />If the benefit they are bringing dps wise is far better for the raid, even with a small drop in their own dos, they are on top.<br />Anything where a tank wants extra hate transfer (perhaps not apt if you have good tanks, but not ever raid does) swashies win again.<br />Offensive debuff a needed? 2x swipe needed? Swashies again.<br /> <br />I'd like to see some reason for assassins not to be guaranteed a raid spot though sadly. HP debuffs are basically the only reason.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Single threat transfer which is almost necessary for any raid considering how unbalanced threat vs dps between fighters and other dps classes.<br /> <br />Plus, assassins have some amazing single target damage, let alone their AoE dps. Mostly this comes form Hemotoxin alone, but they definitely get the upper hand because of poisons and their other abilities that no other class gets. It'll be hard to take assassins off a permanent raid spot, while other classes can't even compete.

ZUES
11-02-2015, 02:52 AM
You guys are gonna love the new and improved Dagger Storm. It's pretty awesome. Can anyone say 70k ability mod?<br /> <br />Oh and the Swashy relic cloak has a debuff that increases all damage to target. Flurry of Blades has a 30s duration and a 16 sex recast. In other words, it's in 100% of the time.<br /> <br /><img src="http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a538/Vectairy/shiney2_zpsras3tdnk.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a538/Vectairy/shiney_zpsvme8nvlj.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" />

ZUES
11-02-2015, 03:32 AM
Raid guilds need to start their swashy hunt now while descent swashies are still available. Get em' while you can, or get stuck with a scrub like me.

Koko
11-02-2015, 03:47 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276819#post-6276819" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Raid guilds need to start their swashy hunt now while descent swashies are still available. Get em' while you can, or get stuck with a scrub like me.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> If the 4% elemental damage was a %hp debuff, maybe. However it isn't, so swashies are still super-terrible compared to rangers.

ZUES
11-02-2015, 03:54 AM
I disagree. Swashies just became the ToT requirement. It's an AOE expansion, every zone. They don't have to wait on increments and parse neck and neck with the lock and wiz on AoE fights. They are now #1 on the zonewide. On top of that they are increasing the entire raid forces dps by at least 5% and elemental classes by 10%. All of their buffs stack with other swashies. They gave us exactly what we asked for. You may not agree right now but the numbers won't lie, and you'll see 2 swashies in every raid force in ToT. Mark my words.

Neiloch
11-02-2015, 04:15 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276828#post-6276828" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I disagree. Swashies just became the ToT requirement. It's an AOE expansion, every zone. They don't have to wait on increments and parse neck and neck with the lock and wiz on AoE fights. They are now #1 on the zonewide.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Compared to who?

ZUES
11-02-2015, 04:23 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Neiloch"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Neiloch said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276836#post-6276836" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Compared to who?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Everyone. An equally geared swashy is now the #1 dps class in the game on 3+ target fights. Not to mention what they're going to do for VC's... hint hint nudge nudge.<br /> <br />Here is just one example of their new found glory.<br /> <br /><img src="http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a538/Vectairy/storm2_zpsibyajrfq.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" />

Bloodguts
11-02-2015, 05:08 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276828#post-6276828" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I disagree. Swashies just became the ToT requirement. It's an AOE expansion, every zone. They don't have to wait on increments and parse neck and neck with the lock and wiz on AoE fights. They are now #1 on the zonewide. On top of that they are increasing the entire raid forces dps by at least 5% and elemental classes by 10%. All of their buffs stack with other swashies. They gave us exactly what we asked for. You may not agree right now but the numbers won't lie, and you'll see 2 swashies in every raid force in ToT. Mark my words.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I like your enthusiasm, but that doesn't mean anything when you're talking about numbers.<br /> <br />First of all, there aren't any more AoE fights that other expansions haven't had. <br />Second of all, Swashies will only be useful if you have wizards/conjurors in your raid, if you don't use those classes in your raid force, then you don't really need to bring one.<br />Third, they still don't have a considerable max hp debuff. When talking about numbers alone, Max HP debuffs trump everything else.<br /> <br />What these changes have done is make swashies more viable to bring to a raid, but them topping over other classes, I don't think that will happen. This is just all a balancing act to make them closer to the DPS other t1 classes do, but sadly they don't have a Max HP debuff that's worth a damn in a raid and that's what's required to have for any competent raid force.

Karsa
11-02-2015, 12:51 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276095#post-6276095" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Nope;<br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">less damage,</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">less utility, and</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">less reliable.</div> <br />I feel really bad for everyone who was serious about beastlords making a comeback.Even<b><i> if </i></b>beastlord EncDPS was comparable to other scout's they <b><i>still</i></b> won't get a chance due to their shortcoming in utility/reliability.<br /> <br />Beastlords could gain a stacking 2% hp debuff /per primal and they <i><b>still </b></i><i><b>might</b></i><i><b> be bad compared to assassins</b></i> if scripts/threatgen don't let them play the game, and that assumes their damage is comparable post-ethereals <i><b>which I severely doubt</b></i>.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>There is like 2 weeks left little early to throw in towel. The increased CA damage has been a great start the class needs a de- hate mechanic like cat-like reflexes or cough cough a hate transfer and hopefully there are some other changes on the table that are coming.<br /><br />Can anyone link beast lord class cloak

Awesomeo
11-02-2015, 01:47 PM
Yeah I'll wait right till the bitter end before throwing in the towel <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

Estarion
11-02-2015, 02:52 PM
I'm looking at it from another angle. There is 2 weeks till expansion goes to live and there is still no changes to beastlord. CAs becomes stronger? But it's general scout updates. Beastlord didn't get class specific updates only because there is nothing for him planned. How the things works? Firstly there must be a plan what to do. Secondly it goes to testing area, and last it goes to live after all feedback and precise tunning. We were believe that they had a plan which they would reveal for us in beta to let us test it then and provide a feedback, but now we are at beta and there is nothing. Sure there is a small chance that bl changes will hit beta right before its shutdown or even straightly to live. But I hardly believe this will happen.

Estarion
11-02-2015, 03:16 PM
I tell you more - situation is exactly the same that was in previous beta. When all scouts got their poison boost and we beastlords were waiting right till the bitter end and got nothing except our pet stops dying constantly. But even this wasn't a BL specific change - they just specify raid scripts to not hit the pet. But, for example they forgot to add the same string to contested ossuary several named's scripts, where pet's fate is only in healers hand. Also pet's mana is near zero almost all fight and no advantage procs then. Lol. Beastlord's dps is depending from whether pet has mana or not. Exactly because ticking dot somehow applies to the pet there. Sometimes I think devs just hates beastlord. They hate it because it's too complicated for them. The structure is very different and there is no way to copy/paste fixes as for others. But is it our fault? They launched it and even got some money for it.

Jrel
11-02-2015, 04:56 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Trakanom"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Trakanom said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276893#post-6276893" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Hemotoxin stops scaling after 1200 cb/pot. I assume it broke when trying to fix finisher applying as final ability damage. Here's some data. All tests were run with static gear and the Agi->pot/cb prestige removed. The multiplier is obtained from the standard damage formula, while ignoring any class specific multipliers or final ability damage, as they would cancel out in the final ratio comparison.<br /> <br /> <br />Multiplier = (floor((log(Agi,2)*0.28-1.2)*100,0.01)/100)*(<span style="color: #7e3794">1+pot</span>)*(1.5+<span style="color: #11a9cc">cb</span>)<br /> <br />The ratio is obtained by comparing it to an arbitrary static amount, in this case Trial 1.<br /> <br /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/ZAVPtHB.png" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br /> <br />This clearly shows that the scaling hits a dead stop past a certain point, possibly additional bleedover from the new CB hard cap. It would be great if this were addressed and fixed so us non-bl scout dps can go back to complaining that we need to pay for our dps. Thanks.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Awesome post. You should post this in the live forums. I knew something was wrong on Beta when my Hemo averages were still at AOM level on single targets even though my AGI and Potency were exceeding 20K and 2.3K.

Taiyla
11-02-2015, 05:53 PM
Noxious Symphony Bug -<br />Last night I cast Noxious Symphony while raiding and got a message across my screen multiple times saying "Concentrated Symphony has been upgraded and must be recast". The buff increases the nox resist despite the message. I logged in this morning to test it again and I got the message across the screen twice every time I zoned but the resist remains.

Trakanom
11-02-2015, 08:07 PM
Hemotoxin stops scaling after 1200 cb/pot. I assume it broke when trying to fix finisher applying as final ability damage. Here's some data. All tests were run with static gear and the Agi->pot/cb prestige removed. The multiplier is obtained from the standard damage formula, while ignoring any class specific multipliers or final ability damage, as they would cancel out in the final ratio comparison.<br /> <br /> <br />Multiplier = (floor((log(Agi,2)*0.28-1.2)*100,0.01)/100)*(<span style="color: #7e3794">1+pot</span>)*(1.5+<span style="color: #11a9cc">cb</span>)<br /> <br />The ratio is obtained by comparing it to an arbitrary static amount, in this case Trial 1.<br /> <br /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/ZAVPtHB.png" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br /> <br />This clearly shows that the scaling hits a dead stop past a certain point, possibly additional bleedover from the new CB hard cap. It would be great if this were addressed and fixed so us non-bl scout dps can go back to complaining that we need to pay for our dps. Thanks.

Neiloch
11-02-2015, 08:20 PM
I don't want poisons being a huge contributor, but it shouldn't be useless either since many AA's and 'balance' is based on it, and it should definitely scale properly with equipment upgrades.

Trakanom
11-02-2015, 08:38 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Neiloch"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Neiloch said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276897#post-6276897" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I don't want poisons being a huge contributor, but it shouldn't be useless either since many AA's and 'balance' is based on it, and it should definitely scale properly with equipment upgrades.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I agree. The finisher acting as final ability damage and being able to be triple stacked was definitely a problem, but if it follows the regular scaling scheme, it should be much more under control. I hope.

Svenone
11-02-2015, 10:42 PM
Hate transfer? But we already have it...from the tips of our sharp pointy objects!<br /> <br />But seriously, this is something that many brigs have been wanting for a very long time. Maybe the devs will relent and give brigs what they want, but I doubt it. They will say that they already gave us a hate transfer when brigs got the prestige AA Mercy or Anger. Yes, I would like a constant hate transfer skill. Maybe not to the extent that an assassin gets it, though.

Errrorr
11-02-2015, 10:47 PM
Giving brigs a hate transfer would make them even more essential that they already are. It'd make more sense to just give their detaunts a boost.

Nidy
11-02-2015, 11:58 PM
Get rid of the stupid poisons already. Up the CA's to make up the difference whatever that percent is for all the scouts. <br /> <br />Nidy<br />Brigand

Ruckus
11-03-2015, 02:24 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Nidy"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Nidy said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6277486#post-6277486" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Get rid of the stupid poisons already. Up the CA's to make up the difference whatever that percent is for all the scouts.<br /> <br />Nidy<br />Brigand</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Amen x infinity

ZUES
11-03-2015, 04:47 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6276838#post-6276838" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Everyone. An equally geared swashy is now the #1 dps class in the game on 3+ target fights.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I retract this statement. The more I see while grouping with sins and rangers the more I regret ever saying that. I seen a sin triple my aoe parse today in raid.

Tildaron/Yojiimbo
11-03-2015, 08:20 AM
Would appreciate some hate x-fer for my brig !

Ruckus
11-03-2015, 03:14 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6277444#post-6277444" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Giving brigs a hate transfer would make them even more essential that they already are. It'd make more sense to just give their detaunts a boost.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br /> <br />I'm waiting for someone to come back in here and ask for the swashbuckler's AA "Reach" again. <br /><br />Take the few "good" things that swashbucklers have that is unique to the class, and give them to everyone else! =/

Mark John
11-03-2015, 04:17 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Bloodguts"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Bloodguts said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6275924#post-6275924" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I completely agree. Max HP debuffs shouldn't exist.<br /> <br />But as long as they exist, they are the single most important thing you want to bring to any raid.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br /> <br />Surely Max HP debuffs are very important; but not uniquely so. There is an equivalent amount of percent dps increase that does the same. I was looking at guilds last Precipice (Karana) parse to cull some numbers.<br /> <br />Karana ~ 40,000 million HP; fight time 5 mins, average dps on Karana 133 mdps (million dps). Adds neglected just looking at single target part:<br /> <br />So Case 1: ranger debuff 5% HP, with same raid dps:<br /> <br />Karana 38,000 mil HP/133 mdps = 285.7 sec fight<br /> <br />Case2: no ranger debuff but raid dps +10%<br /> <br />Karana 40,000/146.3 = 273.4 sec fight; so 10% dps increase for this mob/fight length is clearly better here.<br /> <br />Case 3: no ranger debuff; what raid increase in dps is needed to compensate?<br /> <br />taking the 285.7 sec it took with the ranger (Case 1) we would need 40,000/285.7 = 140 mdps; an increase in raid dps of 140/133 = 5.2%<br /> <br />So for this encounter, with 40,000 HP and a nominal raid average dps (named dps only) of 133 mdps, we would need a 5.2% dps increase to named to equal the 5% max HP debuff. Also as baseline dps increases, further % damage increases would favor dps increase over HP debuff.

Jrel
11-03-2015, 04:29 PM
From what I'm seeing currently in raids:<br /> <br />WDB needs to be uncapped by another 100 to 150, and total CA damage increased by 7%<br /> <br />OR total CA damage needs a boost of 13-14% if no WDB raise.<br /> <br />If Hemo's were allowed to increase naturally again, then the CA damage increases would be less, but non-hemo scouts would still need the increases as above.

ZUES
11-03-2015, 07:27 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mark John"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mark John said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6277928#post-6277928" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Surely Max HP debuffs are very important; but not uniquely so. There is an equivalent amount of percent dps increase that does the same. I was looking at guilds last Precipice (Karana) parse to cull some numbers.<br /> <br />Karana ~ 40,000 million HP; fight time 5 mins, average dps on Karana 133 mdps (million dps). Adds neglected just looking at single target part:<br /> <br />So Case 1: ranger debuff 5% HP, with same raid dps:<br /> <br />Karana 38,000 mil HP/133 mdps = 285.7 sec fight<br /> <br />Case2: no ranger debuff but raid dps +10%<br /> <br />Karana 40,000/146.3 = 273.4 sec fight; so 10% dps increase for this mob/fight length is clearly better here.<br /> <br />Case 3: no ranger debuff; what raid increase in dps is needed to compensate?<br /> <br />taking the 285.7 sec it took with the ranger (Case 1) we would need 40,000/285.7 = 140 mdps; an increase in raid dps of 140/133 = 5.2%<br /> <br />So for this encounter, with 40,000 HP and a nominal raid average dps (named dps only) of 133 mdps, we would need a 5.2% dps increase to named to equal the 5% max HP debuff. Also as baseline dps increases, further % damage increases would favor dps increase over HP debuff.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Good post. So one swashy with the increase in elemental damage (raid), raidwide scout/tank damage rating and now the swash class cloak that increases all damage to target, should make up that difference. Not to mention what the swash is bringing to raidwide VC's and their own personal dps. Bards benefit substantially from swashies now. I won't speculate on a percentage but when you factor in the swash dps it becomes a no brainer. I'm not convinced swashies will catch rangers and sins this xpac, but it's certainly worth testing what they bring to overall raidwide dps.<br /><br />It would be nice if they gave swashies one more thing to seal the deal, a change in Marauder's Vaunt, from scouts and fighters to a general raidwide buff that everyone benefits from.

Mark John
11-03-2015, 09:08 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Bloodguts"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Bloodguts said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278184#post-6278184" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Do you understand how misguided your calculations and assumptions are?<br /> <br />First of all, where is this 10% dmg increase coming from? If you're talking about swashies, that only affects Wizards/Conjurers and scouts who have changed their Weapon Type and Arrows to Elemental, so it's not really a raid wide increase in dps.<br /> <br />Second of all, damage increase debuffs are directly correlated by player skill and gear, where as Max HP Debuffs are not. If you are using a damage increase debuff, the classes that benefit from it must play to their top of their ability to get the most out of it to reach your calculated numbers.<br /> <br />If everyone played like computers and damage increase debuffs affected everyone equally, then of course they would be better, but sadly that's not the case which means that Max HP Debuffs are still the better choice out of the two.<br /> <br />If i were to lead a raid, I would definitely try to bring as much of both Max HP and Damage Increase debuffs as I possibly can, of course.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br /> <br />My calculations are not misguided at all. I made no assumption where the additional dps would come from; only indicated how much would be required to compensate for the absence of, or be equivalent to, the HP debuff.<br /> <br />You are correct in raid you would want both of course. I'm only trying to calculate the equivalency between dps increase and hp debuff.<br /> <br />In the case of the Karana raid, my guild did 133 mdps on Karana over the duration of the fight. Therefore in that case there is a sound basis for calculating what, say 2, 5, or 10% dps increase will do regardless of the source of the increase. And to be clear, we are talking about total raid dps increase, not say, a specific 3-4% elemental increase from Swashes.<br /> <br />Zues gave the opinion that Swashes would meet the threshold, however, it remains to be seen, in the case of Swashbucklers, how much they incrementally contribute to raid dps and if that warrants consideration in a raid. If they can't get close to 5% (for this anecdotal case vs Karana) Ranger utility will remain predominant.

Bloodguts
11-03-2015, 09:28 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mark John"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mark John said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278225#post-6278225" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">My calculations are not misguided at all. I made no assumption where the additional dps would come from; only indicated how much would be required to compensate for the absence of, or be equivalent to, the HP debuff.<br /> <br />You are correct in raid you would want both of course. I'm only trying to calculate the equivalency between dps increase and hp debuff.<br /> <br />In the case of the Karana raid, my guild did 133 mdps on Karana over the duration of the fight. Therefore in that case there is a sound basis for calculating what, say 2, 5, or 10% dps increase will do regardless of the source of the increase. And to be clear, we are talking about total raid dps increase, not say, a specific 3-4% elemental increase from Swashes.<br /> <br />Zues gave the opinion that Swashes would meet the threshold, however, it remains to be seen, in the case of Swashbucklers, how much they incrementally contribute to raid dps and if that warrants consideration in a raid. If they can't get close to 5% (for this anecdotal case vs Karana) Ranger utility will remain predominant.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>It's just the fact that casting a Max Health Debuff requries no skill whatsoever and is on a Duration that's longer than the recast of the ability that casts that debuff, where as a Increase Damage debuff requires the players that benefit from it to use their abilities properly and this specifically requires skill whereas the other doesn't.

Cian4ik
11-03-2015, 09:30 PM
Dear Developers!<br />If you decide to do that all dpsing CA's<br />Maybe You can change the auto-attack mechanics, that it is not interrupted by the CA's (mage's focus mechanics for expl?)

kluxor
11-03-2015, 10:08 PM
In agreement with above....<br /><br />If you want to take the passive damage away from scouts, don't force us to time our autoattacks during god awful raid lag. Wouldn't mind if raid lag was addressed, but removing the interrupts will be a quicker and easier solution. Not even sure why wands get that special treatment either

ZUES
11-03-2015, 10:47 PM
Agreed 100% on missing autoattacks due to casting combat abilities. That mechanic should be eliminated completely.

ZUES
11-03-2015, 11:06 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mark John"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mark John said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278225#post-6278225" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">My calculations are not misguided at all. I made no assumption where the additional dps would come from; only indicated how much would be required to compensate for the absence of, or be equivalent to, the HP debuff.<br /> <br />You are correct in raid you would want both of course. I'm only trying to calculate the equivalency between dps increase and hp debuff.<br /> <br />In the case of the Karana raid, my guild did 133 mdps on Karana over the duration of the fight. Therefore in that case there is a sound basis for calculating what, say 2, 5, or 10% dps increase will do regardless of the source of the increase. And to be clear, we are talking about total raid dps increase, not say, a specific 3-4% elemental increase from Swashes.<br /> <br />Zues gave the opinion that Swashes would meet the threshold, however, it remains to be seen, in the case of Swashbucklers, how much they incrementally contribute to raid dps and if that warrants consideration in a raid. If they can't get close to 5% (for this anecdotal case vs Karana) Ranger utility will remain predominant.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>It's not just the 3-4% elemental damage increase (which is up 100% of the time btw), it's a combination of things that the swashy can bring. There is still room for improvement but based on what we see on beta...<br /> <br />1. Double Cross increases all elemental damage to target. 36 second duration with 5 second recast. I'm not grandmastered on beta because of the beta buffer reset all my CA's to all expert. But I'm assuming it's 3-4%.<br /> <br />2. Marauder's Vaunt increases Final Ability Damage for all scouts and fighters raidwide. The beta buffer reset my spells to expert (grrrr!) so I don't know what the grandmaster % is but expert is 9.33%. 13 second duration, 2:38 recast.<br /> <br />3. Swashy class cloak increase ALL damage to target with Flurry of Blades (a CA that is always in), which already has a nice physical damage debuff. I posted screenies of the cloak but I do not have it personally so don't know the exact numbers on Flurry of Blades damage increase. 30 second duration, 15 second recast.<br /> <br />4. They share many of the same debuffs as the brig. Ofcoarse there is no Dispatch but Swash still has an HP debuff. Change of Engagement in the heroic line is 5.2%. 45 second duration, 15.7 recast.<br /> <br />5. The swashies have a little bit better Swipe than brigs. Both can keep it in nearly 100% of the time though.<br /> <br />Based on what I'm seeing in raid you can't ignore the fact that even though swashies are putting up pretty good numbers in aoe fights, you would be losing dps if you replaced a sin or ranger. So now you have to weigh what they bring based on 1-5. THEN consider what they are doing for bards charging VC's. The entire raid benefits from larger VC's so that's another dps increase.<br /> <br />If running 2 swashies, double 1-5 because they stack.

Koko
11-04-2015, 12:22 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mark John"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mark John said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6277928#post-6277928" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I was looking at guilds last Precipice (Karana) parse to cull some numbers.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278128#post-6278128" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Good post.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Bloodguts"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Bloodguts said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278184#post-6278184" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Do you understand how misguided your calculations and assumptions are?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Nice attempt guys. Time is limited so picking up on the major errors before I yell at the fighters some more.<br /> <br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">%hp debuffs are not a linear curve, and rangers are not the only class with %hp debuffs.</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">i.e. The encounter duration is <i><b>way</b></i> different in a shift from 70->65% vs. 100->95% max health.</div> <br />Re do your calculations and I'll review them later! [edit] Short hand math does not show swashies as favorable.

Reevar
11-04-2015, 12:49 AM
Caith can we get a hint if there are some beast ability changes heading to Beta like the bards and swashies got? I was hoping to see some today but Nada. <br /><br />And Koko ... Don't say it ... I already know what you are going to say.

Mark John
11-04-2015, 12:49 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278347#post-6278347" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Nice attempt guys. Time is limited so picking up on the major errors before I yell at the fighters some more.<br /> <br /><div style="padding-left: 30px">%hp debuffs are not a linear curve, and rangers are not the only class with %hp debuffs.</div><div style="padding-left: 30px">i.e. The encounter duration is <i><b>way</b></i> different in a shift from 70->65% vs. 100->95% max health.</div> <br />Re do your calculations and I'll review them later! [edit] Short hand math does not show swashies as favorable.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Right, not disputed your assessment. I was only trying to demonstrate the rough equivalence of a 5% HP debuff (in isolation) as compared with an increment in dps. As you imply, game non-linearity will obfuscate things when considering, say, the effect of stacking other HP debuffs, other variables affecting dps, overlapping dps buff/debuffs, etc..<br /> <br />It is raid time have to go; I'll redo with same baseline HP and dps, and assume a 30% HP debuff (w/o ranger) and repeat with a 35% debuff (w/ ranger) later.<br /> <br />Preliminary calc indicates that to get an equivalent dps increase to the (ranger) 5% HP debuff, (when applying 30% HP debuff of other classes 1st), i.e 30% HP to 35% HP debuff, would require ~7.7% increase in raid dps. Will post calc later.

Koko
11-04-2015, 01:13 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mark John"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mark John said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278367#post-6278367" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Will post calc later.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Thanks! Look forward to it. <br />Helping the best I can with limited time. Classes with %hp debuffs from memory;<br />Brawlers, Mystic, Defiler, Templar, Brigand, Assassin, Ranger, Shadowknight, Necromancer <span style="text-decoration: line-through">Beastlord</span><br /> <br />Assassin is semi maintainable (might change with ethereal). To the best of my knowledge the rest are maintainable.<br />30% is low ish (assassin/brigand/templar/mystic/defiler), 35~40 includes sk/necro/brawler.

ZUES
11-04-2015, 01:28 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278383#post-6278383" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Thanks! Look forward to it.<br />Helping the best I can with limited time. Classes with %hp debuffs from memory;<br />Brawlers, Mystic, Defiler, Templar, Brigand, Assassin, Ranger, Shadowknight, Necromancer , <span style="color: #ff0000">Swashbuckler</span><br /> <br />Assassin is semi maintainable (might change with ethereal). To the best of my knowledge the rest are maintainable.<br />30% is low ish (assassin/brigand/templar/mystic/defiler), 35~40 includes sk/necro/brawler.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>

Koko
11-04-2015, 01:43 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278389#post-6278389" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">swashy!~</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Doesn't stack with brigand, if it did things would be drastically different (if it helps, I wish swashys had one q_q).<br />On the same note, bruiser doesn't stack with monk.<br /> <br />To clarify the %hp debuffs stack linearly, just ask Fatality! (^~!)

Bloodguts
11-04-2015, 02:24 AM
<br />Like Koko said, swashbucklers don't have a unique Max HP Debuff, they don't stack with the Brigand. <br /> <br />If you're not carrying a Brigand in raid, then sure as hell bring a Swashbuckler, but with limited spots in a raid, Brigand has always been the better option with the dps they can dish out and their debuffs that Swashbucklers could never match.<br /> <br />Hopefully now Swashbucklers will be liked more now for raids, but sad truth is Raid Spots are still limited and pure Max HP Debuffs are still the way to go.

Enoa
11-04-2015, 05:24 AM
On troub changes<br /> <br />Jester's Ruse seems too strong. doing almost 25% of my damage. I like the idea of making Jester's Cap more useful but not sure i'm keen on this change. Playing a troub with this means watching my spell timer window to see when to rebuff it. Maybe a final ability damage modifier on it so casting it on a sin during FFU chain or a Sorc during a stack blow would be more fun instead of mindlessly spamming it on two players.<br /> <br />Energizing ballad should be able to be cast on myself... or at least be modified by my (caster's flurry).. which at least i can control (it's currenlty 100% on beta). This wont scale well with current potency inflation...making the desirability of this ability only last an expac (if that). Would prefer it be based off another stat than flurry.. like potency or ability mod.<br />Also would love if the reuse was dropped to 2 min so i can toggle it off and have it ready for every 2nd VC charge/ 4th Timewarp instead of every 3rd VC/6th TW.

Bloodguts
11-04-2015, 08:25 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mark John"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mark John said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6277928#post-6277928" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Surely Max HP debuffs are very important; but not uniquely so. There is an equivalent amount of percent dps increase that does the same. I was looking at guilds last Precipice (Karana) parse to cull some numbers.<br /> <br />Karana ~ 40,000 million HP; fight time 5 mins, average dps on Karana 133 mdps (million dps). Adds neglected just looking at single target part:<br /> <br />So Case 1: ranger debuff 5% HP, with same raid dps:<br /> <br />Karana 38,000 mil HP/133 mdps = 285.7 sec fight<br /> <br />Case2: no ranger debuff but raid dps +10%<br /> <br />Karana 40,000/146.3 = 273.4 sec fight; so 10% dps increase for this mob/fight length is clearly better here.<br /> <br />Case 3: no ranger debuff; what raid increase in dps is needed to compensate?<br /> <br />taking the 285.7 sec it took with the ranger (Case 1) we would need 40,000/285.7 = 140 mdps; an increase in raid dps of 140/133 = 5.2%<br /> <br />So for this encounter, with 40,000 HP and a nominal raid average dps (named dps only) of 133 mdps, we would need a 5.2% dps increase to named to equal the 5% max HP debuff. Also as baseline dps increases, further % damage increases would favor dps increase over HP debuff.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Do you understand how misguided your calculations and assumptions are?<br /> <br />First of all, where is this 10% dmg increase coming from? If you're talking about swashies, that only affects Wizards/Conjurers and scouts who have changed their Weapon Type and Arrows to Elemental, so it's not really a raid wide increase in dps. <br /> <br />Second of all, damage increase debuffs are directly correlated by player skill and gear, where as Max HP Debuffs are not. If you are using a damage increase debuff, the classes that benefit from it must play to their top of their ability to get the most out of it to reach your calculated numbers.<br /> <br />If everyone played like computers and damage increase debuffs affected everyone equally, then of course they would be better, but sadly that's not the case which means that Max HP Debuffs are still the better choice out of the two. <br /> <br />If i were to lead a raid, I would definitely try to bring as much of both Max HP and Damage Increase debuffs as I possibly can, of course.

Koko
11-04-2015, 12:45 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Enoa"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Enoa said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278484#post-6278484" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Playing a troub with this means watching my spell timer window to see when to rebuff it.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>That is the definition of JCap from DoV to ToV, where ability reuse through reforge was introduced.<br /> <br />All troubs were terrible at this simple task, so now everyone runs 100% reuse.

Stimpelton
11-04-2015, 01:04 PM
The J-Cap thing is cool, it will give me a reason to cast it on someone other than myself. <br /><br />I agree on EB. I'm not wasting 40 points to get that. I hardly use the troub tree as is. Make it castable on myself then we will talk. 180 pot won't be worth it in the long run. <br /><br />Countersongs reuse is way too long. Look at Deadly dance or heckue the mystics soul shackle. More pot/ability mod to the group and not on a 7 min timer. Even with 100%reuse it's too long. <br /><br />I like the final ability damage on the debunks and %take more damage. Makes debuffing feel useful. <br /><br />If we are going to make troubs more spell-based instead of melee however (kind of original plan ya?) Then maybe make the spells more apparent. I use perfect shrill and thunderous overture. Sometimes the greens for encounters. <br /><br />Also, CA initial tool tip dmg needs to be raised a bit. I understand we are not t1, but daggerstorm for swash reads 150k while mine sits at 50? Seems a bit off.

Mark John
11-04-2015, 04:57 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278383#post-6278383" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Thanks! Look forward to it.<br />Helping the best I can with limited time. Classes with %hp debuffs from memory;<br />Brawlers, Mystic, Defiler, Templar, Brigand, Assassin, Ranger, Shadowknight, Necromancer <span style="text-decoration: line-through">Beastlord</span><br /> <br />Assassin is semi maintainable (might change with ethereal). To the best of my knowledge the rest are maintainable.<br />30% is low ish (assassin/brigand/templar/mystic/defiler), 35~40 includes sk/necro/brawler.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Some of your comments have given me pause.<br /> <br /> <br />Have a little more work to do to get numbers which are 'raid representative' rather than just 'theoretical', The Karana encounter originally quoted is probably not the best choice because I pulled the numbers from ACT.<br /> <br />So specifically, the health value of 40,000 million HP for Karana was merely the total damage done to kill Karana (39,990,787,387 damage taken). Clearly that is not the max HP as HP debuffs were applied. We had Brig (&Swash), Mystic, Defiler, SK, Bruiser , Templar but no Necro or Ranger in this encounter.<br /> <br />That means the original calculation was, in fact, closer, because it was in the lower range 70 -> 65% you had mentioned. However, still not correct in that the calc then underestimates the 5% Ranger debuff, which should be from a number larger than used. <br /> <br />To proceed I would have to guess or estimate the HP debuffs that were applied to get to the roughly 40,000 mil HP in the actual raid which I think is counterproductive at this point.<br /> <br />At any rate I think I'll just gather some data my using the scout Detect Weakness ability pre-engagement, which provides total HP, and then comparing, across several engagments, the actual damage done, which should give a 'pragmatic' value of applied HP debuff 'efficiency'. Of course, if some classes are missing or players are not diligent applying the debuffs then actual raid values will differ from the theoretical ideal.<br /> <br />The following conclusion can be drawn from what you have indicated and the calculations I performed:<br /> <br />As HP debuffs stack, you need to do more dps to achieve the same effect as a fixed HP debuff.<br /> <br />For example at the 'top end' of the nonlinear curve, a 5% debuff is roughly equivalent to a 5% increase in dps. However, in the lower range of the curve (I used 30% effective HP debuff and then compared with an additional 5% debuff), you need more dps to be equivalent, roughly 7%.

ZUES
11-04-2015, 05:36 PM
Swashbuckler DPS was ninja nerfed by 50%. I can't even catch a monk on the parse now.

Caith
11-04-2015, 06:02 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278699#post-6278699" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Swashbuckler DPS was ninja nerfed by 50%. I can't even catch a monk on the parse now.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />No, it wasn't.

Ruckus
11-04-2015, 06:09 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="ZUES"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">ZUES said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278699#post-6278699" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Swashbuckler DPS was ninja nerfed by 50%. I can't even catch a monk on the parse now.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Blame the lag! =P

Mark John
11-04-2015, 06:12 PM
Okay Koko, I can give you 4 points on the curve (equivalency of HP debuff to dps increase) for hypothetical (but reasonably raid representative numbers); Four cases 0, 20, 30, and 40% HP debuff, perturbed by an additional 5% HP debuff and then calculate equivalent effective dps increase in each case:<br /> <br />Baseline: 40,000 million HP with raid 125 million dps.<br /> <br />Case1: 0% HP debuff applied:40.000/125 = 320 sec fight.<br />Add a 5% HP debuff 38,000/125 = 304 sec<br />Determine equiv dps: 40,000/304 = 131.5789 mdps /125 = 5.26% dps increase<br /> <br />Case2: 20% HP debuff applied: 32,000/125 = 256 sec fight<br />Add additional 5% debuff 30,000/125 = 240 sec<br />Equiv dps increase 32,000/240 = 133.3333...mdps/125 = 6.67% dps increase<br /> <br />Case3 30% HP debuff applied 28,000/125 = 224 sec fight<br />Add additional 5% debuff: 26,000/125 = 208 sec fight<br />Equiv dps increase: 28,000/208 = 134.615 mpds/125 = 7.69% dps increase<br /> <br />Case4 40% HP debuff applied: 24,000/125 = 192 sec fight<br />Add additional 5% debuff: 22,000/125 = 176 sec<br />Equiv dps: 24,000/176 = 136.3636 mpds/125 = 9.09% dps increase<br /> <br />Summary baseline HP debuff (minus the 5%) and the required equiv dps:<br /> <br />5% HP Debuff vs Equiv dps increase as a function of baseline HP debuff:<br /> <br />0% 5.26%<br />20% 6.67%<br />30% 7,69%<br />40% 9.09%<br /> <br />Also, if you start with say baseline 20,000 mHP, and 125mdps, (half the mob HP) or if you double the dps<br />40,000 mHP and 250mdps you get the same percentages, i.e. the same equivalency between a 5% HP debuff and an equivalent raid dps increase. What matters is the level of HP debuff already in place when the added 5% is applied. (But you knew that already <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" /> )<br /> <br />Regards,<br />Mark

Awesomeo
11-04-2015, 06:44 PM
I'm still waiting for those awesome Beastlord changes. <br />Yes, I know, I'm deluded <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" /><br /> <br />I still believe in Santa Clause too <img src="/images/smilies/tongue.gif" alt="Tongue" />

Cian4ik
11-04-2015, 09:32 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Cian4ik"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Cian4ik said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278249#post-6278249" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Dear Developers!<br />If you decide to do that all dpsing CA's<br />Maybe You can change the auto-attack mechanics, that it is not interrupted by the CA's (mage's focus mechanics for expl?)</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>UP!!!

Bloodguts
11-04-2015, 09:36 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Estarion"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Estarion said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278796#post-6278796" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">RIP beastlord<br /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/UNuvpAs.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br />some strange ppl in general channel respond that one bl pulling 50 mil on nameds lol. They pretend it's a big numbers. Oh my, my live toon pulls more. They just have no clue what an actual numbers in expansion will be and have no any clue what a crap bl mechanics was, is and stays. Well done Caith. Now every RL would wish invite a BL in raid for its amazing groupwide Savage Ruin proc. Btw what is 'Savage'?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>That Beastlord is using Death Touch. His name is Anonymity.

ZUES
11-04-2015, 11:04 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Caith"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Caith said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278718#post-6278718" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">No, it wasn't.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Ya I don't know what's going on then. Stats remain the same, parse took a major nose dive. Group setup is identical as yesterday. It seems like all blue AOEs are hitting for much less. Could be that I ran out of poisons and didn't realize it; I cannot check right now.

ZUES
11-04-2015, 11:37 PM
Caith, it's <b>my opinion</b> that the swashy still needs help. You can tell by the comments above that we're not being sought after for utility or dps, even after your changes. We are an AOE class that cannot compete (from what I am now seeing on beta) with any other AOE classes, including tanks in a hybrid dps set. Our single target dps is laughable compared to other scouts. And our utility, while better than it was last week, is still not enough to gain favor with raid leaders.<br /><br />Swashies need something to excel at over other classes. Right now it's just not there. It sounds like you intended to boost our aoe dps because that is where swashies are supposed to shine. That was awesome that you went that route, but it still isn't enough. We're just not good at any one thing.

Koko
11-05-2015, 12:07 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mark John"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mark John said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278726#post-6278726" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Okay Koko, ...you knew that already <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" /> )</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Thank you for explaining it for everyone else! ^^; I'm also not the best at explaining things, and it was refreshing to see a different approach. As for swashies & beastlords, move the %hp debuffs from brigands & assassins to these classes. It'll be interesting, and I suspect assassin/brigands will remain highly desirable.<br /> <br />tl;dr koko explanation:<br />5% of 100% ~ 5%;<br />5% of 50%~10%;<br />The ranger debuff will equate to a raidwide increase in the 8~9% range, depending on # of %hp debuffs used.

Dreadtalon
11-05-2015, 01:26 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Estarion"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Estarion said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6278796#post-6278796" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">RIP beastlord<br /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/UNuvpAs.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br />some strange ppl in general channel respond that one bl pulling 50 mil on nameds lol. They pretend it's a big numbers. Oh my, my live toon pulls more. They just have no clue what an actual numbers in expansion will be and have no any clue what a crap bl mechanics was, is and stays. Well done Caith. Now every RL would wish invite a BL in raid for its amazing groupwide Savage Ruin proc. Btw what is 'Savage'?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>----<br /> <br />Awful. Awful. AWFUL! I'm sorry, but that is embarrassing! I wouldn't take off the fabled AoM cloak for that... Seriously. Is this a joke? Did I just wait a ******* year (2 years? 3? 4?) for this?<br /> <br />Again, Is this a joke? Did someone tell you about my blood pressure, and are you trying to see if you can elevate it as some sort of experiment in relation to MMOs?<br /> <br />I've refrained from posting because I truly didn't want to be negative during a time that we should be focusing on the positive, but this...<br /> <br />The little buffing you did on Beta brought BL up to the point of being <b>*near*</b> <b><span style="text-decoration: underline">some</span> mage DPS ON LIVE</b>, but there is still NOTHING that a BL offers that other classes don't do better and even offer more of, at the same time as doing greater, or similar DPS w/ NONE of the drawbacks of BL mechanics.<br /> <br />I'm starting to take this personally. I've tried not to, but after so many years, so many suggestions, I can't believe that this is still what I'm seeing?<br /> <br />I've logged in 3 times since finding out there was even a relatively small addition of crafting (which I loathe, but not an attack on, just a preference!) to the sig line - but this is the most disheartening thing for Beastlords I've seen yet during this Beta.<br /> <br />Please, for all the love that Anashti Sul created undeath for: TRY AND HELP US TO UNDERSTAND what your plans are for the Beastlord, because these changes, and this item in particular, mean NOTHING.<br /> <br />Grrr! GRRR!<br /> <br />Dreadtalon (Now with higher blood pressure!), a Freetard of Freeport

Estarion
11-05-2015, 03:17 AM
This is only shows us that someone who name is Caith is completely misunderstood the BL weak spots and completely ignore all suggestions from class focused tread. From those ppl who exactly knows these weak spots of their favorite class. Nothing more nothing less. The way of dev's promises and the reality of nothing changes is disrespectful and unprofessional. But it doesn't surprise no one who actually knows that they don't play their game. Surprise there is the empty promises. What for that has been given all the time? We'll take a look at beastlord, take a look, TaKe a LoOk, tAkE A lO0oo... Stop. It should takes only 2 minutes to make the class relevant.<br /><ul><li>Add 80 lvl spell a hate transfer that gmed at 25%. //QoL/utility change here</li><li>Increase Savagery gain by 10 per CA used and decrease Savagery dissipation by 20 per tic per Feral Rampage level if you never gonna reverse savagery bar like channeller's one. //QoL change here</li><li>Increase duration of Feral Rampage up to 30 sec and add immunes to Feral Rampage every lvl against stuns knockbacks etc and make it persists through the death. Or better reassembly it and apply its primal multiplier 6 to primals by default and leave Feral Rampage with cb dps flurry base dmg buffs only. //QoL change here</li><li>Share melee stats with pet.</li><li>Add 8 targets blue advantage similar sin's Stealth Assault in 4 slot and fix finally Draconic Breath up to 8 targets.</li><li>And finally HP debuffs. Rise a Spinechiller Blood up to 7.5% and add a 2.5% to pet's both Exposed Weaknesses and Brutal Decimation. //Utility change here</li></ul>Brig now has a 11.6% while BL sits at 2.5% and you comes with Savage Ruin groupwide for beastlords? Are you okay at all?<br />P.S. For your info we already have a groupwide ability 'Chilling Claws'. Even make this raidwide and drastically increase its damage would be more relevant than what you did. Btw what is 'Savage'? I think Caith didn't opened a BL spellbook even once. Way to go.

Stimpelton
11-05-2015, 03:19 AM
Enough about Beastlords.....How about that Ayonic Hymn on the troub? I mean.........do something bout that mess.

Estarion
11-05-2015, 03:37 AM
why enough? Are troubies in danger? Are they gonna lose their spots? But i'm really done. Wait 2 weeks sell everything and bye eq2. I'm done with this treatment

Stimpelton
11-05-2015, 04:15 AM
L8er

Therein
11-05-2015, 05:06 AM
So while everyone is crying about their cloaks, let me throw in my 2 cents as a brigand.<br /> <br />Swashbuckers debuff offensive stats. Brigands debuff defensive stats. Stop taking my class mechanics and giving them to swashbucklers and come up with some other way to buff their class.

Dreadtalon
11-05-2015, 05:20 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Therein"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Therein said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279050#post-6279050" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">So while everyone is crying about their cloaks, let me cry over perceived brigand injustice....</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>---<br />Fixed that for ya.<br /> <br />I mean, if you can't beat us....join us? <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" /><br /> <br />Dreadtalon, a Freetard of Freeport

Estarion
11-05-2015, 08:07 AM
RIP beastlord<br /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/UNuvpAs.jpg" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br />some strange ppl in general channel respond that one bl pulling 50 mil on nameds lol. They pretend it's a big numbers. Oh my, my live toon pulls more. They just have no clue what an actual numbers in expansion will be and have no any clue what a crap bl mechanics was, is and stays. Well done Caith. Now every RL would wish invite a BL in raid for its amazing groupwide Savage Ruin proc. Btw what is 'Savage'?

Errrorr
11-05-2015, 09:38 AM
Lets face it, Hemo did need nerfing. It was insanely OP last expac especially for assassins.<br />I think where it is at the moment is now fine, but it does need uncapping so it doesn't hard cap at 1200 pot/cb or w/e it now is.<br />Hemo should never really exceed 5-10% of a parse IMO.<br /> <br />As for the BL suggestions above;<br /><ul><li>25% Hate Transfer - Maybe 15% would be more fair, would have no problems with that. Or at least add an affect to all slot 3 advantages that reduces hate position by 1 position.</li><li>7.5% HP debuff + 5% for Pet - This would be pretty overpowered. At most it should be a 5% HP debuff on Spinechiller blood, with a 30s Duration on it so it can be maintained.</li><li>Fixing Draconic Breath to 8 targets is 100% valid, and should be done.</li></ul><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Estarion"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Estarion said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279019#post-6279019" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Btw what is 'Savage'? I think Caith didn't opened a BL spellbook even once. Way to go.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><img src="http://i.imgur.com/PVuWKfl.png" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" /><br /> <br />If you are going to demand fixes, and then criticise the skill of the developer, good luck with Beastlords. Hows does the old phrase go? Never bite the hand that feeds you.

Awesomeo
11-05-2015, 11:00 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote"> <aside> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">If you are going to demand fixes, and then criticise the skill of the developer, good luck with Beastlords. Hows does the old phrase go? Never bite the hand that feeds you.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Agreed, I'm as frustrated as the next man about Beasties but keep it civil at least.

Koko
11-05-2015, 12:16 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279097#post-6279097" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content"><ul><li>25% Hate Transfer - Maybe 15% would be more fair, would have no problems with that. Or at least add an affect to all slot 3 advantages that reduces hate position by 1 position.</li><li>7.5% HP debuff + 5% for Pet - This would be pretty overpowered. At most it should be a 5% HP debuff on Spinechiller blood, with a 30s Duration on it so it can be maintained.</li></ul></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>My playgroup has already agreed that a 2% hp debuff/primal (12% total) would still place BLs below brigands/assassins, it isn't even close. I don't see how this could be considered overpowered when two other classes already do this while offering superior damage/utility.<br /> <br />Would they replace a ranger with this? Likely not. Assassin/brigand are certainly not going anywhere.

Sinreaper
11-05-2015, 12:22 PM
Its fun to read this forums its like a endless nagging posts about silly **** hp debuffs , i want my class to do more dps i want to have more utility i want i want omfg get a grib guys , this game has gone completly off track havening mobs with billions of hp raids to do 500millions dps i meen wow wtf, ive been playing this game for soon to be 11 years.<br />and the part where everyone want to be the highest dps has made class balance gone down the drain.<br />I do really hope that daybreak can sort out class balance better then Soe sins they really could not

Estarion
11-05-2015, 12:30 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279097#post-6279097" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content"><ul><li>25% Hate Transfer - Maybe 15% would be more fair, would have no problems with that. Or at least add an affect to all slot 3 advantages that reduces hate position by 1 position.</li><li>7.5% HP debuff + 5% for Pet - This would be pretty overpowered.</li></ul> <br /> <br />If you are going to demand fixes, and then criticise the skill of the developer, good luck with Beastlords. Hows does the old phrase go? Never bite the hand that feeds you.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div><a href="https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/focused-feedback-scouts.553723/" class="internalLink">This</a> was given to us for collect proposals and make adjustments. And not a single BL suggestion have been accepted yet, even yours but sure you missed this fact because you obviously don't play a bl. It looks like they just scrolled down all bl comments. Otherwise I can't get how a necessary QoL changes may take a years to apply. We should notice also there is no dev reply about bl in the whole beta class feedback treads. It's not a browser f2p game. That is the way how things should not be done. It's me who feed them 8 years and I'm about to quit paying for promises.<br />Why 15? Sin has 25 and swash has 29 constantly +8 half time. Not too much?<br />I mentioned Savage Ruin before, do you believe I don't know what it is? As many other 'Savage whatever'. And Savage Ruin is already mentioned on the cloak. So what is just 'Savage'? Tell me please I really want to know.<br />But hey, I ask the guy who don't know that pet's Expertise can't be picked up both at same time. And that spell may be maintained only about 50% of time due to poor pet's AI. Which they plan to fix at... 2017?<br />You don't need argue with me. They promised and broke, not me. Even if they just boost a dps to the t1 lvl the beastlord wouldn't take any chance to show it. Because without QoL and utility changes there is simply no room for him. No one want a bl in raid still. When I saw a channeller's cloak I thought 'yes they know what to do'. Relic was a chance to show their understanding of BL issues, but they miss again.<br /><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Awesomeo"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Awesomeo said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279115#post-6279115" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Agreed, I'm as frustrated as the next man about Beasties but keep it civil at least.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I'm trying but c'mon they just ignore all bl's questions about what is planned and what is happens. I've seen this one year ago. Believe me this ignore is not promises any good for bl for another one year.

Koko
11-05-2015, 12:36 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Estarion"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Estarion said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279136#post-6279136" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Believe me this ignore is not promises any good for bl for another one year.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I've started to bet at a 1:2 ratio that BLs would still be terrible post-expansion. That way I'm not disappointed when nothing changes. The worst part is, its the safest bet I'll ever make.

Errrorr
11-05-2015, 03:41 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Koko"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Koko said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279131#post-6279131" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">My playgroup has already agreed that a 2% hp debuff/primal (12% total) would still place BLs below brigands/assassins, it isn't even close. I don't see how this could be considered overpowered when two other classes already do this while offering superior damage/utility.<br /> <br />Would they replace a ranger with this? Likely not. Assassin/brigand are certainly not going anywhere.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />12% HP debuff vs the 8% assassins get (10% if you consider Shadow Assault, which can't be maintained 100%) vs 5% Rangers get.<br /> <br />If you do that, all you do is next expac you have every other scout wanting more max hp debuff to compensate.<br /> <br />Why can't we just get rid of these damn debuffs all ready? Please please please stop using them for balance for DPS classes. Chuck them onto bards/Chanters if they are needed for mob difficulty.

Reevar
11-05-2015, 05:04 PM
Beastlord<br />Offensive and Defensive warders innate buffs have been rebalanced for level 100.<br />Weakness will now be removed after casting 2 advantages. The duration of Weakness has been reduced from 5 to 3 seconds. <br /> <br />guess we will see what "Rebalanced" means after patch

Bloodguts
11-05-2015, 05:36 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279201#post-6279201" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">12% HP debuff vs the 8% assassins get (10% if you consider Shadow Assault, which can't be maintained 100%) vs 5% Rangers get.<br /> <br />If you do that, all you do is next expac you have every other scout wanting more max hp debuff to compensate.<br /> <br />Why can't we just get rid of these damn debuffs all ready? Please please please stop using them for balance for DPS classes. Chuck them onto bards/Chanters if they are needed for mob difficulty.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />If they do that, they need to balance all the raid encounters towards this change too.<br /> <br />I'm all for eliminating Max HP debuffs, and balancing classes accordingly for their damage and support, but they need lower mob's health across the board to reflect this removal. Max HP debuffing is so significant, it actually lowers the duration of an encounter by multiple minutes when you had them all available.

Trakanom
11-05-2015, 06:06 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279201#post-6279201" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">12% HP debuff vs the 8% assassins get (10% if you consider Shadow Assault, which can't be maintained 100%)</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>6%. 8% with stealth assault. Death mark is on a mob for all of 1 second per cast and isn't really functional as a hp debuff.

kluxor
11-05-2015, 07:52 PM
I wouldn't complain if they removed max hp debuffs from the game. Would let me get rid of some more combat arts off my hot bars...and would hear a lot less complaining about how op assassins are.

Kojacke
11-05-2015, 08:02 PM
<a href="https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1gVaINvOJfYRREjOvUY6KSdT6WKj-sc_ZMYeRF4QC8dI/edit" target="_blank" class="externalLink" rel="nofollow">https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1gVaINvOJfYRREjOvUY6KSdT6WKj-sc_ZMYeRF4QC8dI/edit</a><br />In terms of how hemotoxin has been affected, the top is a live raid parse, and the bottom is a beta raid parse. From what I have heard, it was said that hemotoxin was going to be left as it is, and yet I see a decent 50% decrease in the damage it can <i>on the low end. </i>As an assassin on a very competitive team, seeing my dps go down by so much, while the mages and other scouts dps (namely brig 8's swashbuckler) goes up, I'm at a loss for what to even do here.<br /> <br />And for another thing, I've noticed that troub dps has been affected, negatively, more than dirge dps. For a 30% increase, I'm sure seeing a lot of decreases in dps.<br /> <br />Kojacke<br />Assassin of Maj'Dul<br /> <br /> <br /><img src="https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1gVaINvOJfYRREjOvUY6KSdT6WKj-sc_ZMYeRF4QC8dI/pub?w=482&h=537" class="bbCodeImage LbImage" alt="[IMG]" />

Vainamoinen
11-05-2015, 09:10 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279201#post-6279201" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Please please please stop using them for balance for DPS classes. Chuck them onto bards<span style="text-decoration: line-through">/Chanters</span> if they are needed for mob difficulty.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>^^ I support this.

Arco
11-05-2015, 09:20 PM
Trying to remove debuffs at this stage would create a lot of work for the devs... especially this close to launch... <br /><br />Removing them completely would mean they would have a lot of abilities that would need something new in its place... not to mention how they would need to reduce hp from many encounters that were already quite lengthy fights... We have enough AA that don't provide any worth... why add more to the list...<br /><br />Rangers would be back to providing almost nothing useful, much like BL is atm, then you'd be nerfing some of the utility necro/monk/Templar/SK/shaman provide as well... If giving BL 12% hp debuff still wouldn't make it viable... removing hp debuffs would mean BL still isn't viable... and then ranger would also be in the same boat... raids would be sin, brig, and swash.<br /><br />Instead of trying to figure out what to nerf to hope class balance improves, why not just focus on what could be adjusted to make BL more in line without copy pasting a mechanic to all the classes... <br /><br />If you don't want BL to have any utility, make them T0 dps... many guilds only go by what they can see in act and ignore stuff like hp debuffs that they can't see... if you want them to truly be viable, give them a unique utility that makes them wanted.

ZUES
11-05-2015, 09:28 PM
So it would take an extra 10 minutes to clear a zone? It's not a big deal. However, I would hate to see any class get nerfed or lose its desirability. Right now the 3 classes that need the most attention are Swashbuckler, Beastlord and Channeler. Two of them require purchase. So if any hp buffs get shifted I would recommend it go to the BL and Channeler (those classes need it and DB could reap the financial reward, it's a win win). But doing so would just put those classes that are valued, partly because of their debuff, in the same boat as Swashbucklers. I would not want to be Caith right now lol. There is no easy or quick fix. But I'm sure in the end he will come up with something that's in everyones best interest. It's possible to make all these class balance issues blend with the new class cloaks.

Errrorr
11-05-2015, 10:28 PM
Channelers are fine, they are just as useful as ever. <br /> <br />But as this is a scout topic...<br /> <br /><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Arco"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Arco said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6279395#post-6279395" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Trying to remove debuffs at this stage would create a lot of work for the devs... especially this close to launch...</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I'm not saying remove them from all classes, just the DPS scouts. Move them onto utility classes so the mobs don't need re-balancing. <br /> <br />Doing that would make Brigs/Swashies dps with decent debuffs, and Predators/BL's pure DPS. It would then be down to players dps/skill to decide upon raid slots, rather than class.<br /> <br />Yes there would need to be some balance around the classes, but a hell of a lot easier than trying to balance multiple dps classes around hp debuffs.

Embery
11-05-2015, 10:40 PM
Regarding the following change:<br /> <br />Dirge<br />Confront Fear - Grants the target an Ability Reuse to Potency conversion<br /><br />On progression and hard mode fights I find myself waiting for Confront Fear to clear rez effects. How about adding the enhancement to Gravitas instead?