Suggestion for Retaliation change

[Jezekie]

I think it's quite weak, especially if you're paird with a troubadour then you simply don't get any defense benefit from it, so I'm using brawler's stance when tanking for the +5 Deflection. But that aside, in a moment of brilliant greatness (I was looking at the monk equiliant), I think rather then boosting ours in Deflection/Defense, I'd rather see a change to the proc on Retaliation and change it to a modifiere to increase riposte rate, as well as damage done by say a factor 10. So when you're tanking mobs and riposte for 200, you riposte for 2k, on epic encounters anyway. <div></div>

[Opa]

<div></div>I don't know that I necessarily love the riposte idea. The number is big; which I think might serve to do a couple things. (1) Cause some encounters to arguably become crapshoots.  E.G., I can't solo named mob X without one of my mega-ripostes, but as soon as I get one it's easy. (2) Whenever magnitude is that high, people will kick and scream about it and say it should be nerfed. I do agree it's time to re-orient our thinking about the bruiser tanking stance line, especially since after the spell adjustments +physicality will mean nothing (as far as I can figure). And more, if they're tweaking defense, this skill will already need a complete overhaul, since it's utility will go down vastly compared to the HP self-buffing classes. My suggestions: +deflection, +defense, and maybe a proc that's defensive rather than offensive (I know this makes the name problematic) like a proc'd mitigation boost (ala Heavy Scarring, but obviously less). Of course, these too are just thoughts. I'm always interested to hear what other new ideas people have. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Opaki on <span class=date_text>05-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:41 PM</span>

[Moski]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is it woth to argue about the proc of retaliation  :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>from my experience it procs every 3rd fight (or even less) so the proc doesnt bother me</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moskito wrote:<div> </div> <div> </div> <div>is it woth to argue about the proc of retaliation  :smileyhappy:</div> <div> </div> <div>from my experience it procs every 3rd fight (or even less) so the proc doesnt bother me</div><hr></blockquote>It's not a question about wether it bothers anyone or not, it's about how useless it is to most epic^^^ fights as it does nothing for us when tanking (our primary role). The riposte idea was merely just an idea towards keeping the "offensive" side of our subclass, since retaliation is worse then our class' tanking stance, Brawler's Stance. And I was trying to deviate it from just being a copy paste of the monk equiluant which adds +15 Defese & deflection and 10% haste for reference. Buttom line is that something has to change.</span><div></div>

[Moski]

<P>how could it be worse then brawlers stance?</P> <P> </P> <P>Brawlers stance adds someting like 5 to defense and deflection</P> <P>Retaliation adds +12 Defense, +10 Physicality </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i always use Retaliation, i never turn it off, no matter if i am MT or Add Tank or even dps. Cause we dont have a aggro reducer (besides FD that cancels all buffs, stances etc) i always get aggro in a long fight against ^^^ epic encounter. so i am always in defense stance.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

Due to buff stacking, if you group with a troubador which you argubly should have for raids, then you won't see a differnce between Retaliation and Brawler's Stance in terms of defense, so the +5 Deflection adds further to your avoidance. I think it's generaly an oversight that we don't have Deflection on Bouncer and Retaliation but I don't know. As for DPS roles, I never use a defensive stance. I use Brawl on mobs where I have to use cestii, otherwise I just use Fiery Fists when wielding the RGF. I try to do my best at managing aggro and not just continue to spam every skill that refreshes to minimize aggro bouncing, it's rather inefficient and dangerus to not have mobs stay on MT at all times, IMO anyway. <div></div>

[Moski]

<P>I agree that the upgrades to Brawlers stance should add at least the same amount of Deflection than the Base Skill of that Line. So Bouncer and Retaliation should add 5 or more points to Deflection.</P> <P>I for myself would never trade 5 deflection for additional 7-9 Defense and 10 Physicality (adept1-master1) Retaliation grants. I must admit i never checked in MT Setup if I reach my Defense Cap while using Brawlers Stance. </P> <P>I know that you Jez know your Class and so i guess yor right with the defense stacking/cap. But as soos as one of your Defense buffer dies (the Bard, Guardian, Warden whatever) you really need the additional Defense you get from Retaliation. </P> <P> </P> <P>Brawl: I guess i used it twice. The aggro-management is more difficult with the additional 21 Skill Points in Fist. And due to the fact i mosty use staff (prismatic) or hammer (because all fist weapons i own are worse than them) brawl wouldnt really help me. Another argument for me to stay with retaliation even in dps situation is that i always reach 1030+ attack rating while in defensive stance. thats (in my experience) more than enough to hit mobs.    </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[psubull]

Brawler's Stance is a brawler defense buff.  It is a mix between the monk and bruiser defense buffs.  All of the skills from 10 to 19 kind of paved the way for what role we would like to fill.  While the monk's buff has +15 defense/deflection and 10% haste, that's what they're supposed to have to fill the role SOE has had out for them.  The physicality boost and counterattack on ours is great, as it helps land combat abilities from the front.  The only thing I feel that should be changed is the % to proc rate on Blitz to 75% of the time, and have it cost no power when Blitz casts when Retaliation casts it.  That would help out tremendously in the way we are supposed to tank, and not make us stand there like cardboard in front of the MOB. <div></div>

[Moski]

<P>The proc chance of Retaliation is 3% </P> <P>I doubt soe will raise the chance to 75%   :smileysurprised:</P> <P>This would be very unbalanced while you solo</P> <P> </P> <P>the difference between monks defencs stance and ours isnt balanced either. +15defence and +15Defelction is much better for tanking than +13 Defence and +10 Physicality.</P> <P>Btw. does the Retaliation Proc consumes mana? I never realised that.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Opa]

<DIV>The problem is that with the spell revamp, +physicality will mean nothing anymore.</DIV>

[psubull]

yeah, retaliation costs power when it procs, sadly <div></div>