Fiery Fists and other procs, weapon speed, combat arts, and you!

[Dahlrek]

<div></div><div></div> <div> <div>Recently one of the developers posted something that at least a few of us already knew: per-hit proc probability is inversely proportional to weapon speed.  This mechanic is used to minimize the impact of weapon speed and haste on damage dealt per second from procs, proc buffs, and so forth.  The designers can slap the same proc on any number of weapons or buffs and not worry about people using really fast weapons or haste to generate excessive damage.  You can see that post here:</div> <div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30217#M30217" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30217#M30217</a></div> <div> </div> <div><!--StartFragment --></div> <div>I posted in that thread that I wasn't sure how the proc probability works on CA hits; if they use the cast time of the CA, or the weapon speed, or what.  Maybe someone somewhere has already figured this out and posted it, but I've never seen it, so I figured I'd test it myself.</div> <div> </div> <div>Well, I got around to running that little test tonight.  Fiery Fists Adept1 claims a 7% proc chance in the inspect.  I grabbed a 3.8 delay 2h, turned on Bouncer, turned on Fiery Fists, and beat up some orcs.  Here's what I found:</div> <div> </div> <div>Only striking with regular melee: </div> <div>  262 successful hits (including ripostes and fatal blows)</div> <div>  19 procs of Fiery Fists</div> <div>  7.25% real proc probability</div> <div>  5.725% inspect proc probability </div> <div> </div> <div>Only striking with One Hundred Hand Slap (Adept 1):</div> <div>  243 successful hits (including fatal blows)</div> <div>  19 procs of Fiery Fists</div> <div>  7.82% real proc probability</div> <div>  6.17% inspect proc probability <b>Update</b> </div> <div>Equipping DW 1.5 delay weapons: <div>Only striking with One Hundred Hand Slap (Adept 1):</div> <div>  277 successful hits (including fatal blows)</div> <div>  6 procs of Fiery Fists</div> <div>  2.17% real proc probability   Too few procs to gauge appropriate inspect proc probability </div> </div><div>Now, admitedly this is a small test, not as rigorous as I usually like to be.  Also, the fact that I got 19 procs with each is just dumb luck.  I tested till I got bored, and then parsed the results.  However, given all the prior proc rate testing I've donepreviously, I feel reasonably confident coming to the following conclusions:</div> <div> </div> <div>1. Fiery Fists Adept 1 inspect proc rate is (<strong>like just about every other skill in the game</strong>) off by one.  It says 7%, but it's probably really 6%.</div> <div>2. Proc probability for hits generated by CAs is based on the speed of the weapon you currently have equipped.</div> <div> </div> <div>This means your CAs generate more procs if you use slower weapons; and because CA recharge speed is completely independent of weapon speed, haste buffs, or anything else, this creates yet another bias in EQ2 towards slow weapons.  <b>Update</b>: I'm still not quite sure how DW weapons interact with CA proc probability, because the proc probability using a pair of 1.5 delay resulted in a terrible proc rate compared to the 3.8 delay 2H.  That was expected, and just highlights the issue I'm talking about, but we'll need more tests to figure out if using DW weapons uses the average, or main hand, or main hand halved, or what. </div> <div> </div> <div>There are a couple things still open to investigation: how ranged weapons interact with the CA system for procs, and what proc rate is obtained for CAs when dual-wielding.  I have a job, and I'd rather play than spend hours investigating mechanics, so it may be a while before I get around to checking either of these issues out.  I had a 2.6% real proc rate using DW weapons the other night against Fyst, but it wasn't a controlled situation, so I don't feel I get much useful info from that, other than the fact that my real proc rate was quite low.</div> <div> </div> <div>Anyway, I'm just putting this out there to generate some feedback.  I know it's a small test, and there are a few holes that need to be plugged to make it conclusive, but I'd rather put it up now and see if people already have counter examples.  If other like-minded people have done proc rate parses in controlled situations, I'd love to hear about the results.</div></div><p>Message Edited by Dahlrek on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 AM</span>

[Andn]

<P>the devs confirmed, that delay doesnt mean jack when it comes to same proc %es.</P> <P> </P> <P>but, shouldnt dual wield weapons still proc twice as often?</P> <P>after all, theres 2 of them, and the formula didnt take # of weapons into account.</P> <p>Message Edited by Andnay on <span class=date_text>04-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 AM</span>

[narcoleptic_l]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Andnay wrote:<BR> <P>but, shouldnt dual wield weapons still proc twice as often?</P> <P>after all, theres 2 of them, and the formula didnt take # of weapons into account.</P> <P>Message Edited by Andnay on <SPAN class=date_text>04-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:24 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>yup, should anyhow... as an example, if you dual wield 2 weapons with the same proc, you'll see both of them proc one after the other in the same round.</DIV>

[Dahlrek]

<span><blockquote><hr>narcoleptic_ltd wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Andnay wrote: <div></div> <p>but, shouldnt dual wield weapons still proc twice as often?</p> <p>after all, theres 2 of them, and the formula didnt take # of weapons into account.</p> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Andnay on <span class="date_text">04-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:24 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <div>yup, should anyhow... as an example, if you dual wield 2 weapons with the same proc, you'll see both of them proc one after the other in the same round.</div><hr></blockquote> Actually, dual wield weapons automatically have their proc rate halved so you get the same number of procs per time period.  At least that's the result I got when I tested it with my scout a long time ago.  I don't have those numbers handy anymore.</span><div></div>

[pohs]

Good post Dahlrek, but (as exampled by your replies thus far) you might as well be speaking latin to monkies. 

[Flachett]

I dunno about dual wields having thier procs halved, I was using 2 dwarven maces of cleansing for quite a while and it proc'd like crazy each one is a 30% chance to proc and yes it really did seem to proc 60% of the time. Im about to get two slime coated maces since they are both 10% chance to proc which is still better than the imbued stuff at only 5% per

[Tren]

<div></div>im so glad our community has guys like Dahlrek<font color="#ffffff"><a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=3994"><span></span></a></font><font color="#ffffff"> </font>that do all the reasearch and testing for us.  Makes us lazy Bruiser's life much easier!  The more I read informative threads like these, the better i become at playing my class .. information is power.  thank you for the time and effort you took to post this trivial yet informative piece of information!<div></div>

[narcoleptic_l]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dahlrek wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> narcoleptic_ltd wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Andnay wrote:<BR> <P>but, shouldnt dual wield weapons still proc twice as often?</P> <P>after all, theres 2 of them, and the formula didnt take # of weapons into account.</P> <P>Message Edited by Andnay on <SPAN class=date_text>04-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:24 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>yup, should anyhow... as an example, if you dual wield 2 weapons with the same proc, you'll see both of them proc one after the other in the same round.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, dual wield weapons automatically have their proc rate halved so you get the same number of procs per time period.  At least that's the result I got when I tested it with my scout a long time ago.  I don't have those numbers handy anymore.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>nope, 2 proc's in one round, just auto attack. I've also had both cestii proc off of one ranged attack... IE one hit, 2 procs -one for each imbue'd weapon- maybe this isnt intended, but it is how it currently works.</P> <P>EDIT: Just found this little bit in the patch notes on test right now... looks like they may fix this double proc bit. (IE 2 procs off of one hit).<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by narcoleptic_ltd on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:29 AM</span>

[Dahlrek]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>narcoleptic_ltd wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Dahlrek wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> narcoleptic_ltd wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Andnay wrote: <div></div> <p>but, shouldnt dual wield weapons still proc twice as often?</p> <p>after all, theres 2 of them, and the formula didnt take # of weapons into account.</p> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Andnay on <span class="date_text">04-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:24 AM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>yup, should anyhow... as an example, if you dual wield 2 weapons with the same proc, you'll see both of them proc one after the other in the same round.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Actually, dual wield weapons automatically have their proc rate halved so you get the same number of procs per time period.  At least that's the result I got when I tested it with my scout a long time ago.  I don't have those numbers handy anymore.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>nope, 2 proc's in one round, just auto attack. I've also had both cestii proc off of one ranged attack... IE one hit, 2 procs -one for each imbue'd weapon- maybe this isnt intended, but it is how it currently works.</p> <p>EDIT: Just found this little bit in the patch notes on test right now... looks like they may fix this double proc bit. (IE 2 procs off of one hit).</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by narcoleptic_ltd on <span class="date_text">04-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:29 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> How does two procs in one round or one hit disprove halving the per hit proc probability on DW weapons?  Anyway, even if they fix cross-procs on gear, they can't change the system for procs from buffs (unless they decide to force mainhand only, which they haven't mentioned), so I doubt they'll remove the penalty. Edit: grammar</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Dahlrek on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>