Monks role, what happened?

[Cer]

This post is mostly to gripe and make myself feel better, but I'd also like to see what other people think.I've become increasingly aware that every group wants Plate Tanks at higher levels. I've been rejected as a tank on nearly every occasion I've responded to someone looking for a tank. The thing that's bothering me is that if no one wants me to tank, what exactally am I supposed to do? Compared to scouts and mages, I don't put out as much DPS, so I'm not DPS. Not a utility class like bards and enchanters since I've only got one group buff and one ability to help people dodge, and that ability doesn't seem to work on Paladins. It's just a little frusterating since, at 63, I can't do what the class is supposed to do, which is tank. Just seems to me that if we're to be able to compete with plate tanks, we'd need a pretty major avoidance boost, and I didn't really notice much of a boost from the AAs.What does everyone else think about this? Is it just me, or are other people seeing this too? <div></div>

[Caliga]

I never answer when someone is looking for tank.   I do tank when there is no other option, and I'm mediocore at best.  But thats probably me and has little to do with the class.  People tend to think of monks as dps whether we are or not.  I've never been rejected when responding to someone looking for dps.  Plus more the time when people are looking for dps they mean, we have a plate tank and a healer, now we are just trying to fill up the group.  Since my perspective of this as a monk is limited, let me look at it from the perspective of someone who has played with monks as MT.  I've had one or two that were really good, kept arggo, rotated the mob, everything.  But the majority of times I've been in a group that has been forced to resort to a monk tank if the mobs are blue to the monk avoidance works wonders, if they are yellow or higher the monk falls like a brick.  I've also noticed that monks have a harder time keeping arggo on multiple non-enounter mobs and most people aren't willing to do the MA thing if they aren't on a raid.  *shrug*If they increased avoidance anymore I think the class would become overpowered, monks are already excellent at soloing, imagine if evens could barely hit us.  We'd get nerfed so fast our heads would spin.  I know in theory we are supposed to be tanks, but crappy monks like me who just wanna walk around looking sexy in my Gi and soloing green named are ruining it for you tanking monks (but not on purpose, I swear).<div></div>

[laatikko]

Granted ppl seem to only be looking for plate tanks nowadays but they dont own monks (or brawlers) hands down in heroic instances. I haven't had any trouble tanking heroic instances. Just dont get too many adds and try and get a proper grp (like a shammy and some1 to beef hate).Think last time I did an instance I trioed oob with a 70 fury and assasin. no one died, not even once.All and all monks seem pretty onpar with other tanks atm thou i still get the feeling sometimes that warriors do ewerything better (nerf them!).Pauzze<div></div>

[yusukekuwabara]

<DIV>As far as tank goes, I've given up on the idea of raid tanking, which is something I've wanted to do for a long time and is possible. But it's just more time consuming and harder on the healers to have a monk raid tank. As far as anything other then raids I can tank it just fine with 1 healer except maybe Nizara which can be done by a good monk in good gear with 2 healers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now as dps goes, I dont know if your spells are app1 or what but I continuosly parse 1200-1800 and even more at times even on multiple mob encounters in raid zones and non-raid zones. Granted I am fabled out with all master spells.</DIV>

[Caliga]

<div><blockquote><hr>yusukekuwabara wrote:<div> </div> <div>Now as dps goes, I dont know if your spells are app1 or what but I continuosly parse 1200-1800 and even more at times even on multiple mob encounters in raid zones and non-raid zones. Granted I am fabled out with all master spells.</div><hr></blockquote>Do his spells really have to be app 1 to not feel like a dps class?  Yes you are gonna beat out a lot of people being in all fabled and with masters, but I think the point he is making is that if you take a summoner, sorc or pred and put them in all fabled with master spells they are gonna leave you in the dust.</div>

[Anjin]

<P>I don't think it's particularly helpful to post that you parse those DPS figures without stating that you're in a group that is VERY beneficial to melee DPS.</P> <P>To get that much DPS, you're going to have DPS, Haste and Melee crit heavily buffed and probably have melee procs as well.  As a yardstick, why don't you post what you continually get solo, or in a group setup that doesn't send DPS skyward - that way people can make a better comparison.</P> <P>Or, post other classes in your group, and single target buffs you had specifically on you, how many brigands were in the raid using dispatch etc etc.</P> <P> </P>

[JudyJudy]

<P><EM>It seems like more monks have taken an interest in tanking lately...</EM></P> <P><EM>I like that.</EM></P> <P><EM>I feel your pain in others wanting a plater, I really do.  We all know we can tank heroic content.  We all know that we can pick up raid mobs when the MT goes down.  We all know that the monk can tank.  The problem is that the general gaming community doesn't - or they feel like others are better.  Though I may sound like a broken record ((forgive me if I do)) it's up to the individual to use the skill base of the brawler to become better tanks, create a repuation, form groups and take the initiative when the opportunity arises.</EM></P> <P><EM>Unless we do, then in their eyes and our own - we'll be second best.</EM></P> <P><EM>[I cannot control my vocabulary] that.  I wanna be the best I can - and I know you all do too. :smileywink:</EM></P> <P><EM>1) Form groups with friends and let them know your desire to tank.  Be adamant and forthwith.</EM></P> <P><EM>2) Form up PUG's with you as MT - then practice your tanking and show them what the brawler can do.  This is the greatest opportunity to show off for those who *think* they know the role of the brawler.</EM></P> <P><EM>3) Speak with your guild leader and let them know your intentions on building your monk - and stick with it.  Don't be the Yin Yang of the brawler - DPS one day/Tank the other.  Choose one.  Either way, you'll still be able to quest and solo fine.</EM></P> <P><EM>Good luck! :smileyhappy:</EM></P>

[Kinless]

As a monk I can say that with right supporting group I can parse  well. Usually top 5 of raid and stay top 5 on zone averages. I have also tamked epic content in EoF and KoS. Just takes a raid crew that can adapt. Dont give up hope, keep working at it and make a name for yourself.  Everytime I see " Looking for Plate Tank " comments I make a comment back and ask if they doing something easy like Kaladim, and is that why they only want a plate wearer =P Brawlers can tank all heroic content. I have tanked all through Castle Mistmoore, all instances, and Nizara with no real big issues. Epic tanking is a bit spikey, but if healers used to brawler tank they know how to adjust. They have to adjust for every kind of tank though, be it Gaurd, Zerker, Palladin, or SK. Every one has their own quirks. It can be done and folks who say it cant are just mis informed or have not really expended the time and effort to learn how to make it work. Fastest way to become dis enchanted with your class is to read a lot of these forums and let someone else tell you that you cant. Kinz 70 Monk of Forsaken LDL <div></div>

[Cer]

The thing is is that I'm generally in the situation where it's Heroics. I'm not particularly looking to tank a raid. Would it be interesting? Yeah, sure. If I got the gear to do it. But that's not likely going to happen. As far as raiding and epics go, I'd prefer a shield bearing plate tank there myself. But I'm just talking about regular, every day groups.But quite frankly, the reason tanks loose agro isn't [entirely] because of the tank (unless they're really bad) or because they don't have have master taunts. It's everyone fault. Been thinking back to EQ1 days after a raid (I don't raid much, so didn't come to mind earlier) and realized that we didn't do anything in really good groups until the tank said to. People are attacking too early and the tanks aren't doing anything about it. Everyone's to blame. The next time I do tank I am going to make a hot button to tell people they can attack and make sure hate is established. My problem is, of course, that I'm really pretty laid back and sometimes in order to have a great group you need to rule with an iron fist. <div></div>

[Redlan]

<DIV>Ceryk, this will sound like a bit of an odd question but are you in an active guild? Now, to answer your question as bestest as I can:<BR>My credentials - Been in eq community for 6+ years. I've had a druid, then a monk main in eq1. Main is monk in eq2, alt is fury. As a raid monk I am fabled geared with 81aa. I tell you this only so you get some insight on my perspective.</DIV> <DIV>Monks are both great tanks and excellent dps. I wont slam plate tanks but we are overall better tanks than Pallies(cept thier superior aggro control) and SKs. As you should know by now we take damage in spikes, we look great in a fight until some mob [Removed for Content] slaps us. This is not really a big point of concern except if your healer happens to be an Inquisitor(Monks+Inquisitor = worst tank/healer combo in game).</DIV> <DIV>Those predjudices about monk tanks will always be around. OOB is considered a moderate group challenge and, at least from comments from groups I've been in there(usually tanking) brawlers are preferred tanks in there and also in that one instance(tired atm) on top of cliff in LP because of the frequent stuns/stiffles in there which we handle better than ANY other class in there. If we complian too hard to devs they may indeed so something like up the dps and lower our mitigation or visa versa. At this time we are versatile.</DIV> <DIV>DPS is always dependent on group makeup. In a prev guild the guild bruiser usually outparsed me by 5-10%, but before I went to new guild they started throwing me in his grp in raid alot(the dps group) vs me being in the "shortbus" group aka no buffs and often no healer. I started outparsing him, badly. Now, his gear was a tad better so I conclude is he did not spam his CAs as much as me because bruiser/monk dps is pretty much even. In my current guild if I am in a dps group I'm usually 2-4th on parse, on nights when in group with bruiser I tend to be 1-2.</DIV> <DIV>Tanking depends on your healer setup. I tend to do well with a Fury or Templar. I'm predjudiced of course having a 69 Fury and my wife's main is a Templar and many many a day have I duo boxed with her toon.</DIV> <DIV>The other important factor for reality check on if you are really innately a good tank or good dps is your aa naturally. One point in a EoF AA such as punishing cobra ups your dmg by 5%, which is close to what the difference between adept 3 and master. And you can put up to FIVE aa into a skill like that. If your setup defensivly some of your aa is probalby in the agility and str line.</DIV> <DIV>My advice to you is when you get the response when you join a group is "All we need now is a tank and we're gtg" laugh at them and ask politely why you are not considered a tank. We've all experienced that exact comment.</DIV> <DIV>You are not lvl 70 yet so beleive it or not you have more to learn. Wisdom not only comes with lvls but how much you solo vs grp, what kind of different groups you join, your guild experience, knowing what other classes can do for you/the group, speaking up, asking questions, and learning what aa setup fits your needs most. I do not, however, recommend you focus only on being a tank.</DIV>

[Quind]

I've been wrestling with this question a lot lately, mostly because of my damned KoS build and being expected to take a dps-focused AA set.  I find that a lot of what SoE has offered us gives monks a lot of flexibility and if not group-wide utility, at least character utility.  We can tank, and well, for most content.  Depending upon the attitude of folks on the server, we may have to work at building a reputation, but that's worthwhile anyway.  If they say that they're looking for a plate tank, offer them a bowl tank instead and put on your hoo'loh (or some other wok of justice looking hat).  If they're adamant and you're determined to stay in the group, let them know that you'll offtank if needed and do just that.  Monks are good for smoothing potentially nasty situations out, because we /can/ tank, or dps, or whatever, and if the fecal matter really hits the rotating blades, we can FD and rez people in.  (Rez signets and priest rez items ftw.)A lot of a monk's role, as I see it, is making the best of the class's innate flexibility.  We need to learn to tank well, learn to dps intelligently, and watch for situations that we can improve by stepping in and trying to keep the right people alive or keeping ourselves alive.  I try to help keep things going, when they otherwise might not have if people had just sat back and waited and hoped for a miracle or something.  Sometimes miracles can be forced, or so I figure, if people know how to use all of the tools at their disposal.Some less fortunate classes don't have quite the flexibility ours does.  They've been built from the ground up to be the "pure" healers or "pure" tanks or "pure" dps.  I love having them around, because specialists are generally very good at what they do.  I step in where I'm needed most at the time.  At times, when I'm on my monk, I feel like I'm playing my old ranger from EQ1, right down to the monk/ranger sacrifices.  Then again, I tend to see the hybrid in most of the classes I play seriously.  Having a lot of things you can do for the people around you is fun, imo, and learning how to do it all and time it well is a blast.  That said...you can polarise your character and focus on one thing, if that's really all you want to do.  In doing that though, I feel you lose a lot of utility and ignore a lot of the class's potential.I'm kind of curious about how much of a trade-off other folks see involved with going for a more tanky build versus a more damage-focused build.  For most of my time as a monk I've been trying to make the most out of my toon's defensive abilities and build her up to be the best tank a monk could be, but lately I've been looking at the /other/ things we do.  Sometimes I feel like shooting for flexibility and trying to build for recovery is a lost cause.  I'm still holding out hope, though...And now I'm going to shut up, because probably none of that made sense.  Can't think well on an empty stomach.<div></div>

[Tux6]

<P>I have a 70 Zerker a 70 pally and a 39 Monk. I play my monk as i would my zerker. Sure Zerker wears plate so he gets asked to tank more than my Monk and my zerker Owns Groups mobs and Adds due to his AE Taunts, but i have no hesitation with either toon in filling a spot in a group be it tank or DPS as i know both can do the Job well. Sure Monks are a bit or a challenge with adds or multi groups but they can do the job if your groups on the ball and they can Solo like a demon with the right setup and some common sense gear equipped. Play your monk as a tank or a DPS with pride and perhaps educate people a lil by letting them know that you are willing to Tank if the MT is afk  etc, some people just dont realise that adoviodance tanks can cut it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Good Luck mate</P>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quind wrote:<BR>*snip*<BR><BR>I'm kind of curious about how much of a trade-off other folks see involved with going for a more tanky build versus a more damage-focused build.  For most of my time as a monk I've been trying to make the most out of my toon's defensive abilities and build her up to be the best tank a monk could be, but lately I've been looking at the /other/ things we do.  Sometimes I feel like shooting for flexibility and trying to build for recovery is a lost cause.  I'm still holding out hope, though...<BR><BR>*snip*<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just to give you a ballpark, I am 5488 sta and 4488 int KoS, and have taken all tanking abilities in eof thus far (85 spent - skin, tsunami, heal, both taunts, cure, etc).  With about 80% fabled equipment (debuff calamity and fist of pain or wurmy) equipped, I will parse in the 1k-1200 range with solid melee buffs (usually 160ish haste, 70ish dps with an extra proc or two).  This drops dramatically if I am pulling since I miss the first few seconds of most encounters.  I do have a set of dedicated dps equipment that I have been building up to replace tanking gear when I am in a pure dps role, but I assume from the way you write about your own gameplay that you do the same.  I think I have over 2 full boxes of situational equipment, now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>To the OP:  As others have stated, we can perform either role well.  I've tanked every heroic instance and several t7 raids successfully.  The stigma that monks cannot tank or make poor tanks is simply false.  It is a pain to deal with, but the reaction you get when you show a group of naysayers what you can do makes up for it somewhat <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[fre'do]

<P>My role as a monk is trouble finder be it from being main tank or dps.  I will find trouble and most groups will relize that quickly.  I love how we can go places that most classes need a group for to get too.  I mostly off tank and that is very loose term because when i am with two friends one is a pally and the other is a fury...and we both tank and yet the fury can keep both of us up.  when we add new people they always ask who is main tank and we laugh, because we just say both of us.  we have the timing the healin down well.  some creatures i handle better as tank then him but some the pally handles better.  a guardian friend told me that i am a good tank when i actually try that made me feel better:smileywink:</P> <P>  so basically the monks role is what you make of it.  i try and do the jack of all type monk...i can do a little of everything just nothing well.</P>

[DynamicPerforman]

I tank groups, I tank raids. I duo 72 heroic named with a troubadour.I'd be an even better tank if I could give up the AA that help me in PVP (mantis leap, sprint.)My main problem now is holding aggro on multiple mobs, but with a swashy and a dirge in my group, I tend to use Mountain and Stone Stance to up my mit to 63%, avoidence is at 70% and I just stand there and take it while group 2 (Wizard, Warlock, Conjuror, Troubadour, Fury) takes the mob out.Granted I'm not up to tanking any 74x4 named, but i'm not fully mastered, i've only got 3 (true not quested) fabled pieces of armor, and i'm still missing 10 master spells T_T. But I think the potential is still there. Its certainly better than before EoF. 

[Illustrious]

<p>There is only 1 problem with the monk class, and that is other peoples perception.</p><p>We can tank just fine, I have personally tanked every heroic instance in game including Nizz/MMC with no problems at all. I have also tanked the odd Epic encounter when our guild Guard/Zerkers are not on.</p><p>DPS wise we can also do pretty well. I have had over 3k DPS on a a few named epic encounters (when Crane flock is up and when the mobs all stand nice and close!!) and i normally average 1400-1500 ish on most Raidzones. </p><p>solo/Duo play also still good, though  solo play much less than pre EoF as its much harder to solo heroics now than it used to be. </p><p>basically there is no problem with the class although i dont think anyone would ever argue that we are the "best" at anything. We are however "good" at pretty much everything</p>