Mitigation, Avoidance and Raid Mobs

[DjinnKato]

<DIV>Can anyone that knows for sure (not just idle speculation) please explain to me how avoidance works with Raid Mobs,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>because it seems to me they ignore it.  I avoid, parry, dodge or evade attacks from Raid Mobs so rarely it makes me wonder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And when I get hit,  I get hit SUPER hard,  like almost as much as mages get hit for.  Point is,  if I get agro,   I die.  Plain and simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know someone will say something stupid like dont get agro,  but that is not an answer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please let me know if you have any inisght into this.</DIV>

[J4k]

Avoidance is pretty jacked up compared to mitigation which is one of the reasons they are going to be changing it. Basically in groups you are a god and will avoid just abut everything. Any raid mob higher then white con you will probably not avoid all that much untill it is completly debuffed and you can just about forget avoiding anything but the occasional lucky miss on orange mobs. Avoidance doesnt scale anywhere nearly as efficiently as mitigation does. Basically on a orange mob 80% avoidance wont do much when the mob is capable of hitting a plate tank for 8 - 10k and you for 12 - 14k. Very unbalanced and one of the reasons brawlers rarly are main tanks not saying we arnt capable but it does take alot more work to keep us alive no matter what anyone sais.

[Microphage]

<DIV>I have done pulling on a few raids, have 70% self-buffed avoidance, and, of course, die a lot.  From what I can tell, avoidance is doing something - they do miss sometimes.  The problem is that their miss rate isn't even close to 70%, it seems to be well below 50%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The plate tank's mitigation mitigates the same percentage of the damage regardless of the mobs tier (level does have an impact).  Avoidance, on the other hand, appears to be impacted by both tier and level.  This is just speculation, but I suspect that the epic mobs have a higher 'accuracy' or some such thing that has the impact of negating some of the value of avoidance when the to-hit calculations are done.  This affects the plate tanks less because they rely primarily on mitigation.<BR></DIV>

[DjinnKato]

<DIV>Anyone know for sure the dynamics on it ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want to be a main tank,  thats for plate wearers.  But I also would like to not die if an epic looks at me.</DIV>

[selch]

<div><blockquote><hr>DjinnKato wrote:<div>But I also would like to not die if an epic looks at me.</div><hr></blockquote>When he looks at you, only thing that can save you is your FD if you are lucky to hit 95% dice roll over 200 (that's what made me feel lately) sided dice</div>

[Tauch]

<blockquote><hr>J4kik wrote:<div></div>Avoidance is pretty jacked up compared to mitigation which is one of the reasons they are going to be changing it. Basically in groups you are a god and will avoid just abut everything. Any raid mob higher then white con you will probably not avoid all that much untill it is completly debuffed and you can just about forget avoiding anything but the occasional lucky miss on orange mobs. Avoidance doesnt scale anywhere nearly as efficiently as mitigation does. Basically on a orange mob 80% avoidance wont do much when the mob is capable of hitting a plate tank for 8 - 10k and you for 12 - 14k. Very unbalanced and one of the reasons brawlers rarly are main tanks not saying we arnt capable but it does take alot more work to keep us alive no matter what anyone sais.<hr></blockquote>/agree Though it was fun that one time Effrum and I tried to tank Tarinax. Got him down to 20% our first try. We didn't get a second try; instead our plate tanks took over. And wiped on pull. And then wiped again at like 70%. Then we won. But still. <span>:smileyvery-happy: </span><div></div>

[J4k]

<div><blockquote><hr>Taucher wrote:<blockquote><hr>J4kik wrote:<div></div>Avoidance is pretty jacked up compared to mitigation which is one of the reasons they are going to be changing it. Basically in groups you are a god and will avoid just abut everything. Any raid mob higher then white con you will probably not avoid all that much untill it is completly debuffed and you can just about forget avoiding anything but the occasional lucky miss on orange mobs. Avoidance doesnt scale anywhere nearly as efficiently as mitigation does. Basically on a orange mob 80% avoidance wont do much when the mob is capable of hitting a plate tank for 8 - 10k and you for 12 - 14k. Very unbalanced and one of the reasons brawlers rarly are main tanks not saying we arnt capable but it does take alot more work to keep us alive no matter what anyone sais.<hr></blockquote>/agree Though it was fun that one time Effrum and I tried to tank Tarinax. Got him down to 20% our first try. We didn't get a second try; instead our plate tanks took over. And wiped on pull. And then wiped again at like 70%. Then we won. But still. <span>:smileyvery-happy: </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>We CAN tank everything in the game ( not sure about cheldrak i personally havnt tried but im sure it can be done ) It just takes alot more work for the healers and a little bit of luck on mobs like tarinax and cheldrak. when i say luck i mean that we dont avoid lets say 5 hits in a row then 3 7k hits land in a row. Thats where avoidance is screwed up. even if it isnt 3 hits in a row ive seen plate tanks get smashbed for 12k + on tarinax. That 12k on us having 2k less mit would demolish us.Ive said it hundreds of time and i still stick to it. I honestly dont think bruisers or monks should be a tank class. Maybe in EQ1 but not here. A Game where a raid can only have 24 players doesnt need 6 different types of tanks BUT that will most likely not happen so since we are tanks can only make the best of it.... and still rarly tank anything and be claimed as one of the more useless classes in EQ2 yippy.</div>

[sensie]

<DIV>OK here is my understanding of how it  works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NO matter what level the mob is, there are three checks before the hit is applied to our mitagation.</DIV> <DIV>There is a roll against our base avoidance, which is agility and defense</DIV> <DIV>2nd roll againts deflection</DIV> <DIV>3rd roll against parry</DIV> <DIV>If we lose those 3 rolls the the hit is applied to our mitagation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the problem is that each one of those is not our avoidance number, it only makes up part of it.</DIV> <DIV>(making up numbers here for an example)</DIV> <DIV>So avoidance reads 70 percent</DIV> <DIV>40 percent maybe base</DIV> <DIV>15 maybe deflection</DIV> <DIV>15 maybe parry</DIV> <DIV>So in theory we have to win 3 rolls, with numbers less then 50 percent. This is only on white con mobs, anything higher and our values drop even more.</DIV> <DIV>If we had only ONE roll against our avoidance that would make sense, and I would even be happy if we could only cap our avoidance at 65, then at least we might stand a chance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As i said in the beginning this is my understanding of how it works.</DIV>

[Microphage]

<DIV>Statistically it works out the same whether avoidance is broken into three pieces or one.  A good explanation of how the formula works is in this thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=13068&query.id=46949#M13068" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=13068&query.id=46949#M13068</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pure speculation:</DIV> <DIV>Now I'm wondering If epic accuracy (agilty or whatever) is impacting each of our avoidance types seperately?  A 10% hit to each type would be a lot worse than just 10% total.</DIV>

[Ethelwo]

<P>I raid all the time and I can say this, mitigation is king. I rarely and I mean rarely avoid any hit on raids.</P> <P>I am quickly coming to the conclusion that Monks are really only good for solo farming. For raiding make a scout, priest, caster, or plate tank. Even Bruisers ( allthough they do somewhat better) dont fair to well in the raid department.</P> <P>I am leveling a Ranger to betray to Assassin at L57 right now. Going to replace my Monk with him for raiding when hes ready.</P> <P>Oh by the way, the best way to level an Assassin is to make a Ranger and betray later. Rangers are solo Gods and you can level them faster then an Assassin.</P>

[deadsidedemon]

<P>It's a roll of the dice, but so it goes with brawlers.</P> <P>Trash epics I have no real issue with and have tanked enough boss mobs to know that it's not as miserable as some people here make it sound.  But ... the luck of avoidance means we can be one-shotted just as easily as not taking any damage at all ... so sometimes we may come across as sucking.  My biggest issue actually seems to be aggro control vs higher con mobs ... I just don't feel we have enough tools there, aside from raw damage.</P> <P> </P>

[ToejaM t]

I dont think it has anything to do with our avoidance. Its more to do with the fact that raid mobs have alot better stats than a normal mob. So their crushing/slashing/piercing ect is ALOT higher which means they have a greater chance to hit us.You'll notice that when you debuff a mobs crushing/slashing ect that it doesn't hit as much esp at adept3/master1Thats my guess/thoughts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[selch]

Raid mobs, boss heroics and many other heroics also having "TO-HIT" value which is rolled before our avoidance.They roll their to-hit value, such as 70% on underconned heroics. If they roll in 30%, THEN our avoidance rolled and there is still great chance they can hit after rolls.So to clear more:If mob is going to hit you with rolldice of 2000 damage.- They roll a dice if their to-hit value is applied or not. If to-hit value is like 70%, <b>they will most likely ignore any rest of avoidance, which causes 100% parry of Tsunami NOT APPLIED at all in most cases of named heroics & raid mobs</b>. So they roll till 70, they will hit you no matter or what with 2000 damage with your mitigation defense, if they roll between 71-100 then comes to your defensive manouvers... - If their to-hit value is not applied and rolled between 71-100, there comes the formulas explained above such as if parry, riposte etc. But if you are unlucky in there too, you will still get damage 2000 with your mitigation defense.To-Hit value increases with number of arrows on the mobs up along with their strength, and decreases with down arrows as you can guess. Also vs. your con, this changes. For example, players to-hit value is close to 90% against even cons, while it increases up to 100% against lower cons, and lowers down to 0% over reds and much higher levels.So we can actually say to hit value is like 50% on ^^^ heroics, more greater at "nameds", close to 100% on most raid mobs.So if a raid designed with lower to-hit values, then it is most likely brawlers can tank too, but yet assuming that would not be much the case because of "plate" avoidance is very close to brawler avoidance in a good raid setup.That is WHY mitigation is the KING and we are not good at raids or even nameds. So basically while Bruisers can handle themselves 3 minutes wise in greater mitigation and guaranteed to absorb 3 hits, we are just staying beyond all to-hit value calculations even with Tsunami.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>08-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:53 AM</span>