Hate Generation Info

[selch]

<DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) <U> How much damage is equal to one point of hate gain</U> (if there is a direct relation at all)? </DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>1 hate point = 1 damage point</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>2)  <U>Why does spike damage to a mob seem to draw more aggro than damage over time</U>?</DIV> <DIV>(Does damage have some type of exponential function associated with it? i.e. If I hit a mob for 500 dmg 2x or hit a mob for 1000 dmg 1x, do they generate the same hate on the mob?  Or just for the sake of throwing a number in there, does each hit get an exponential multiplier like 500^2 [(dmg)^(multiplier)] or 1000^2?  If this were the case, I would be generating 500k hate from the 2 hits of 500 but 1000k hate from 1 hit of 1000.)</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>The same amount of hate is generated when the damage is dealt. 1:1</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>3) <U>Does hate decrease over time</U>, and if so at what rate?  This would be another reason for spike damage to pull more aggro than damage over time.  If player A does 5 hits of 200 dmg over the course of 10 seconds, and player B does 1000 damage all at second 10 in the fight, player B then has the hate from all 1k dmg while the mob thinks that player A has only done maybe 800. (Just throwing out some numbers.)</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Hate naturally decays <U>very</U> slowly, but it can never naturally reach zero alone.</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>4) <U>How much hate is generated by someone's pet dying</U>?  Does the hate which was previously on the pet get directly transferred to the owner? </DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>A pet's death causes the hate they generated to be applied towards the caster.</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>5) <U>Do taunts generate more hate when a mob is debuffed</U> by a Dispatch or another spell of a similar nature?  I assume this to be true, but it's hard to tell with no hard numbers to see how much a person is actually taunting.  If this is the case, would it be too much to ask to have my actual taunt numbers displayed?</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Taunt amounts are not affected by resists, but lowering resists can help a Taunt from being outright resisted.</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>6) <U>At what rate does hate decrease</U>? I would assume this would have to be a function of the players level.  i.e. Hate is decreased at something like (time * level).  So after 10 seconds a level 1 character would have 10 hate decreased, a level 50 would have 500 decreased, and a level 70 would have 700 decreased.  (Also I would assume some multiplier in there like (time * level * constant) as 10 hate, 500 hate, and 700 hate reduced for the respective levels in 10 seconds is basically nothing.)</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>I would have to double check on this one, but natural hate decay is a slow process.</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>7) <U>How much hate does healing / being healed generate</U>? (This includes wards.)  Does healing/warding give a 1 to 1 threat output?  When I am healed/warded do I gain some amount of hate from this act, and how much do I gain?</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Heals/Wards have less than a 1:1 threat return.</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <U>How much hate do debuffs accrue</U>, if any?  The best example I can think of is a Brigand's Dispatch.  It seems that this spell generates far more hate than just what the damage component  reads.  This would also include stuns/stifles.  It seems that brawlers do a lot of this and seem to pull more aggro than someone else doing the exact same amount of damge.   This leads me to believe that extra hate is generated when a mob is stunned/stifled or even if the spell attempts to stun/stifle the mob and doesn't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Each debuff spell generally causes the same amount of hate appropriate for their level, as do control abilities have amounts of hate that they each generate for their level. Dispatch itself is not the primary cause of grabbing hate, rather it is how a Brigand often combines it with Subdue and Double Up (Subdue having both high damage and a control component hate, and Dispatch having high damage and debuff hate).</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>from <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Lockeye</FONT></STRONG>'s post that will get lost one day, wanted to copy here and please sticky for next generations:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:44 AM</span>

[Gykon]

<div></div><div></div><div><font color="#cc6633" size="1">"<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </font><font color="#cc6633" size="1"><u>How much hate do debuffs accrue</u></font><font color="#cc6633" size="1">, if any?  The best example I can think of is a Brigand's Dispatch.  It seems that this spell generates far more hate than just what the damage component  reads.  This would also include stuns/stifles.  It seems that brawlers do a lot of this and seem to pull more aggro than someone else doing the exact same amount of damge.   This leads me to believe that extra hate is generated when a mob is stunned/stifled or even if the spell attempts to stun/stifle the mob and doesn't.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc6633" size="1"> </font></div> <font color="#ffff00"><font color="#cc6633" size="1">Each debuff spell generally causes the same amount of hate appropriate for their level, as do control abilities have amounts of hate that they each generate for their level. Dispatch itself is not the primary cause of grabbing hate, rather it is how a Brigand often combines it with Subdue and Double Up (Subdue having both high damage and a control component hate, and Dispatch having high damage and debuff hate)."</font></font>That doesnt answer the question, whats level is "amount of hate appropriate for their level"? The question is how does stun/stifle/control spell do relative to a point of melee damage. Has that ever been parsed or analyzed?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Gykon on <span class="date_text">07-18-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:40 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Gykon on <span class=date_text>07-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>It would be nice to be able to have threat numbers logged. However it would take about all the guesswork out of this game. Right now the only hard part of playing a DPS class is to be able accurately judge just how much threat you are putting out.</P> <P>The difference between a good DPS and mediocre player is being able to do the most damage without pulling aggro. The only "skill" left in the class, once you get past the simple stuff like Positioning, Chaining Attacks, and Itemization.. which, really, isn't that hard at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>Tho.. the direction this game is headed, I wouldn't be surprised if they added it.</P> <P>I can see it now... all DPSing classes will have ACT up, watching their little graph bar showing a new bar indicating threat, people knowing exactly (barring display lag) when to back off. More people would be able to maximize their DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>Another question that I would like answered, and I think has a possibility of being answered,</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Does the Initial Hit a person does to an aggro mob have more Hate (or if aggro'ing in itself adds an amount of Hate), and if so how much is it? 3x the regular hit? A fixed amount based on character level like a debuff? Does it apply to other creatures within the group that weren't hit? How about creatures that social aggro'd? Etc...</FONT></P>

[wesbarlow]

<DIV>what would be nice is if someone a lot smarter then me made a parser for hate info. we already know that 1 dmg = 1 hate so if a parser could add taunts in there and stuff like that the same way they do damage that would be pretty cool. </DIV>

[Kainsei]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>wesbarlow wrote:<div>what would be nice is if someone a lot smarter then me made a parser for hate info. we already know that 1 dmg = 1 hate so if a parser could add taunts in there and stuff like that the same way they do damage that would be pretty cool. </div><hr></blockquote>AFAIK, parsers only read and rearrange logs (text files) from the game. Like the lines showed in the combat window (I don't know how to say it, the window where you can see stuff like : "you hit mob01 for xxx damage" etc...).I'm not sure, but I don't think the amount of hate genereted by taunts are written in the logs, so I can't see how the total amount of hate can be calculated.</div><p>Message Edited by Kainsei on <span class=date_text>07-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 AM</span>

[Gykon]

<b><font size="1">so I can't see how the total amount of hate can be calculated.</font></b><font size="2">The way its been done in other games is to have person A hit the mob for a known amount then do nothing else, and have the other person do the ability until they turn on them.With some timing, and manipulation, you end up knowning how much the ability is worth in damage.</font><b></b><div></div>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>The problem is that doesn't take into account hate decay, which is yet another unknown factor. Nearly impossible to find hard results with two unknown factors.</P> <P>The other problem is that you'd have to set up hate increasers and decreasers. And know how they stack.. so Amends + Troub's buff + Harmonious Link = 105% Hate reduction? Or is it reducing 40% of the 100, then 40% of the leftover 60... then 23% of the leftover 36... or is it in a different order?</P> <P>We just don't have enough information to find these things out.</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<BR> <P>It would be nice to be able to have threat numbers logged. However it would take about all the guesswork out of this game. Right now the only hard part of playing a DPS class is to be able accurately judge just how much threat you are putting out.</P> <P>The difference between a good DPS and mediocre player is being able to do the most damage without pulling aggro. The only "skill" left in the class, once you get past the simple stuff like Positioning, Chaining Attacks, and Itemization.. which, really, isn't that hard at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>Tho.. the direction this game is headed, I wouldn't be surprised if they added it.</P> <P>I can see it now... all DPSing classes will have ACT up, watching their little graph bar showing a new bar indicating threat, people knowing exactly (barring display lag) when to back off. More people would be able to maximize their DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>Another question that I would like answered, and I think has a possibility of being answered,</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Does the Initial Hit a person does to an aggro mob have more Hate (or if aggro'ing in itself adds an amount of Hate), and if so how much is it? 3x the regular hit? A fixed amount based on character level like a debuff? Does it apply to other creatures within the group that weren't hit? How about creatures that social aggro'd? Etc...</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Specifically the part in yellow. </P> <P>It is Theory (read no way to prove) that agro is set not only by hate but by position. Hmm how can i explain this. For instance during a raid it is possible for an assassin to have higher total hate then the guard and not pull agro. There is an unknown threshhold before a mob will switch targets on the hate list. This is why occasionally rescue will not automatically draw agro back when the MT losses agro. there may very well be several people with larger hate amount aleady then the MT. So when the person pulls. he is on top of the hate list. and the person drawing agro needs to reach not only a larger hate amount but pass that threshhold amount to become the target of Hate. Pulling does not add additional hate but makes the transition for the mob to switch targets harder for the MT to do.<BR></P> <P>also Lockeye posted prior stating hate decay is very very low. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>07-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:37 PM</span>

[Romka]

Heh, just noticed this post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Few things I'd like to add.<blockquote><hr><div><div></div> <div>3) <u>Does hate decrease over time</u>, and if so at what rate?  This would be another reason for spike damage to pull more aggro than damage over time.  If player A does 5 hits of 200 dmg over the course of 10 seconds, and player B does 1000 damage all at second 10 in the fight, player B then has the hate from all 1k dmg while the mob thinks that player A has only done maybe 800. (Just throwing out some numbers.)</div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Hate naturally decays <u>very</u> slowly, but it can never naturally reach zero alone.</font></div></div><hr></blockquote>You lose 10% of hate every tick (6 seconds), up to 1 hate point.Also...- There is modifier for hate generation based on range from mob to you (ever noticed that rescue not always "works"? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )- There is modifier for hate generation based on mob's target ("same target bonus")- There is modifier for hate generation based on player's architype<div></div>

[grandmoff]

<P>"Hate Generation" would make a good band name or guild name.</P>

[Supp]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Also, most are agreed that stuns and knockdowns generate hate at a rate greater than 1:1</FONT></DIV>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Supple wrote:<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc>Also, most are agreed that stuns and knockdowns generate hate at a rate greater than 1:1</FONT></DIV><hr></blockquote>I'm not sure if it is "hate" generation or "priority". Obviously mobs turn to "closest" in melee target when rooted. That's probably about priority rather than total hate regen.

[JudyJudy]

<P><EM>Awesome post, Selch.</EM></P> <P><EM>I still come back to this thread to study up on the latest hate information.</EM></P>

[psubull]

There has to be a different variable in the formula because when testing against scouts in raids, I seem to always grab aggro first.  We'll keep our DPS even and then I'll tell them to go all out, and I'll go all out as well, and I seem to always get aggro over them with lower DPS and lower hits (their 1800 dps vs my 1300 dps).  <b>We make sure to NOT have any hate buffs on, or hate decrease buffs/procs/abilities.  I do not use taunts, they do not use detaunts</b>, yet me doing less overall damage and overall DPS will draw aggro.  It leads me to believe that a scout has to have a different decay rate than a fighter does.<div></div>

[Un1Q]

<DIV>There are also triggered buffs, like going berserk or the fury's equivalent wich generate alot of hate. Did u had any of these classes present?</DIV>

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Un1Qu3 wrote:<BR> <DIV>There are also triggered buffs, like going berserk or the fury's equivalent wich generate alot of hate. Did u had any of these classes present?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Monks and Bruisers do not have this kind of passive hate generation abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[metacell]

Redundant post.

[Solzak]

<p>We all know taunts, knockdowns, mezzes and stuns generate hate, though there is no means to directly see how much.  I don't believe different classes have inherent hate modifiers...  All of that should be built in to their CA's and spells.  The devs have stated Many times that one point of damage  = one point of hate.  As far as Rescue taking time, and a position threshold for hate, of course there is.  We know there are in-game spells/CA's/procs that modify not only your hate amount, but your position on the hate list.  Rescue itself does this.  The reason is hysteresis.</p><p>If a mob simply changed targets every time you got more hate than someone else (pure numbers), it would be very easy to work a mob to the point where they are Always switching targets, and rarely hitting.  At the very least, their dps would be cut way down by the time needed to switch.  So you build in a little buffer - hysteresis.  Once a target has the top hate position, it takes X more hate than he has to switch. positions, and more than likely there is a minimum time between switching targets.  I'd bet the Hate List algorithm, however it works, uses this kind of rule for every position on the list.  Coders are magicians, so it probably goes something like this...  If you are 1 point above the current top hate position for a really long time, the mob will eventually switch to you.  If you are 10 points above, it will take less time, 100 points even less... scaled with level/tier and all that.  Somewhere in there, enough hate differential will cause an instant switch, or as instant as a minimum timer will allow anyway.</p><p>Rescue and other abilities that change hate position would get the same rules applied after the hate and position modifiers had been applied.  So if someone just now grabbed aggro, you fire Rescue, and it takes more than a second for the mob to switch back, its probably server lag more than a formula issue.  Unless a Wizard just fired fully boosted (Crit + 25%) Fusion/Fission and got 20-30k of damage/hate... then it might take a second or two to get it back... <img src="/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  Assassin's Execute is a good hate stealer, too.</p><p>Anyway, that's how I'd code it if I were them.</p>