item progression: shoulders [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Logan

04-27-2006, 01:55 AM

<P>It is hard to answer a post like this without being inflammatory. In general these monk boards are great, especially compared to some of the other class boards. The only thing that ever gets oogly here is the point of views not shared by raiders and non raiders over gear. The issue of risk vs reward always comes up, rarely time invested, and even more rare that this is a game and not RL. I am a non raider myself and I think it is great we get a bone thrown at us for puttin the time in to do this great quest series knowing full well I will not be able to finish the end of the line. Also I am content with only receiving one item that is on par with raiders loot. I do not require a full set to make my days better. Being more casual the quest line takes me heck of a lot longer than a powergamer. </P> <P>By no means am I slamming raiders and powergamers here. You guys earn the great raid loot you get. And if I wanted a full suit of great armor I should prob join a big raid guild. But that's not where my fun is so it is a nice treat to have a reward like this in there. One item per expansion sounds reasonable to me. The key is that everyone has access to it if they put in the time to get it, and that includes raiders so they can still have the best gear in the game. I guess it really depends on how you compare your gear....do I have the best in the game, or do I have better gear than everyone else? Which point matters most to you?</P> <P>I am satisfied being able to function wonderfully without a full set of raid gear, however since I do enjoy questing it is nice to be rewarded for effort(in time spent) and the whole claymore line and even infiltrating line have been a treat. Obviously I hope the the shoulders do not change but I ask for nothing more.</P> <P> </P> <P>Logann 70 monk..Kithicor </P>

Dfoley3

04-27-2006, 03:59 PM

So let me get this straight. A reward from about 17 quests that takes minimum, probably 14-20 hrs to get to, shouldnt be compareable to items that can be gotten with a 1 group raid in 1-2 min? Relic - trash - can drop from farm groups in lab/lycieum, all it takes is 1 rellic patter... has 110 more power, more resists, and more mitthats right noobs, relic has more mit. 140/3 + 314 = 360 mit The quest arms - u get no power, a 1 hr reuse buff with a 5 min duration and 343 mit, thats 17 less mit, over 800 less resists, and its 4 less stats (+64 stats on rellic + 60 on quest arms)No ofense but ryza and gage you need to be quite and do some math before you cry nerf..... im sorry the death toll raid loot isnt zomg amazing yet, but i get so sick of hearing you 2 cry for nerfs when you have no clue wht your talking about, those arms may come from a quest line that can be soloed up to that point but ur looking at 40-50 hrs of soloing to get there. Where as 1 group of decent geared raiders can get rellic arms.....so yeah pls be quiet and do some math <div></div>

zabor

04-27-2006, 04:31 PM

well let's talk about the shoulders from hurricanus, a contested, which have less mitigation, hp, str, and avoidance than the dragonscale shoulder pads.With wiping a few times during the first triesetc. you will need at least ~4 hrs to kill hurricanus for the first time - if you are a hardcore guild and have no hard competition. With gearing up etc., the estimated time for killing that mob is at 10 hrs. 24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs. So killing hurricanus needs a lot more work than that claymore quest, but still the reward is worse. I do not think that is right.

Cirth_Beer

04-27-2006, 04:43 PM

<P>hummm</P> <P>24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs</P> <P>What is that math ? it's simply ridiculous ! it's like comparing potatoe and carrots :o</P> <P>And the problem may be the fact that hurricanus drop crappy thing .... and his loot should be buffed ...</P>

selch

04-27-2006, 05:46 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cirth_Beer wrote:<BR> <P>hummm</P> <P>24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs</P> <P>What is that math ? it's simply ridiculous ! it's like comparing potatoe and carrots :o</P> <P>And the problem may be the fact that hurricanus drop crappy thing .... and his loot should be buffed ...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, they created all the small mountains at Norrath, world owes them...</P> <P>Sick of Raiders nerf cries... well, in the end, like Koster says: They are just vocal <STRONG><U><EM>minority</EM></U></STRONG>.</P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:07 AM</span>

zabor

04-27-2006, 06:41 PM

<blockquote><hr>Cirth_Beer wrote:<P>hummm</P><P>24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs</P><P>What is that math ? it's simply ridiculous ! it's like comparing potatoe and carrots :o</P><P>And the problem may be the fact that hurricanus drop crappy thing .... and his loot should be buffed ...</P><hr></blockquote>exactly my point.<p>Message Edited by zaboron on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:41 PM</span>

shaolen

04-27-2006, 06:41 PM

<P>In my opinion I think they should downgrade the Relic and Excarnate armor to legendary. When you look at those armor, they drop from none named mobs. Even though they are Epic they are in essence "trash mobs". It takes little effort to acquire them, simply be in the raid and win the roll etc... Even though they are extremely rare now, been on four or five lab raids no relic drops. Was the drop rate nerfed due to raiding guilds abusing the zone or folks calling for a nerf rate on the drops?</P> <P>Anyway back on topic, I wish they would leave the Claymore rewards the way they are since it takes some effort and time to get them. For the average monk (like me) the Claymore quest series cannot be soloed after the first few, I wish it could. For those of you that raid full time I think you <EM><U><STRONG>should</STRONG></U></EM> get the better gear. But at the same time, those of us who don't or can't raid like that should be able to get some nice gear too once in awhile. This gear should require time and effort to get it, it should not be given out easily. </P> <P>What bothers me is the attitude of some of the monks here. Some of you guys tend to trivialize or put down the non-raid gear (and in a round about way non raiders) because you do not need it, or its easy for you to acquire. When you do that you come off as "holier than thou" which is not cool at all. I appreciate the posting of the gear and advice but could really do without the attitude. </P>

selch

04-27-2006, 06:46 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cirth_Beer wrote: <P>hummm</P> <P>24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs</P> <P>What is that math ? it's simply ridiculous ! it's like comparing potatoe and carrots :o</P> <P>And the problem may be the fact that hurricanus drop crappy thing .... and his loot should be buffed ...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>exactly my point. <P>Message Edited by zaboron on <SPAN class=date_text>04-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, it was not your point... Your point was to downgrade equipment... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your point was "OMG! HOW CAN SOMETHING AS QUEST REWARD THAT CAN BE BETTER THAN MY LEWT WITH HELP OF 23 OTHERS OF TR4SH M0BS!!!111!!" hence even it is better with just one stat, sucking compared to rest...</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 AM</span>

zabor

04-27-2006, 07:00 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manyou should take some courses in argumentation theory <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by zaboron on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:02 PM</span>

Dfoley3

04-27-2006, 07:03 PM

If i remember correctly (or scroll up), your an gaiges point was no legendary quest reward should be better then a raid drop.Well relic, the "trash" of all raid drops is easily better in EVER aspect. So then you mention a contested mob that has worse loot then relic. Ok fair enough, but not every item from a contested is better then instanced items. Loot from Zek and bps from MotM were better then any contested loot in t5, in t6, the best monk items came from instances. Yet another case of contested not having the best loot. Sonys trend, is that the best overal items should come from instances, and contested should have filler items that are at least as good, that way the uber guilds can increase their loot per week. Some contested do hav enice items, dont get me wrong, but if you look at 2 expansions and an original release worth of data....Youll easily see that not all loot from contested is good, some is , some isnt. As with deathtoll, if you think the loot for a certain area is under par for the encounter, feed back it. Im sorry you got crap loot from hurricanous, but back in the day barakah and simyahk took enourmous amounts of trials to figure out, and in the end, using water to bug the flux trivialized the encounter. And guess what, they still drop sub par loot some times....As for your math, 24 people spending 10 hrs each, is the same as one person spending 10 hrs, time doesnt multiply by the number of people u have working. Otherwise i could say it took 17 hrs * 6 people minumum to do the quest line. The quest arms arent that over powered. Infact they are under powered compared to the mage/ priest version which has 400+ to all resiss and 600 to fire....is losing 30 mitigation worth gaining over 3k in resists? i dont thnk so.Deathtoll loot is getting upgraded, lycium is harder now, there will be 4 instanced raids to do (not counting harla dar, or ascent), calling for nerfs of an item that is CLEARLY not > trash t7 (rellic) is just redonkulous.ALSO since a few of you seem to forget.... item designers have stated (not an exact quote) "not all items will be the same, you will need to trade off mitigation for stats/resists" this was in refrence to terrorantula bp. And its clearly true in t7, morguard has mentioned it a few times in refrence to t7 items....and looking at the shoulders listed.....some have 3-3.5k resists and 315ish mitsome have 600 resists and 340 mitsome have 60 to stats, 68, 70, and 80Im sure if you put it on an excell sheet youd see "oh so if i wear this shoulder i gain 3k resists, power, and +4 to stats but i lose 30 mitg"<p>Message Edited by Dfoley323 on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:07 AM</span>

Kinless

04-27-2006, 07:13 PM

Just to clarify, 2 peices of Excarnate drop off trash mobs. Gloves Bracers The shoulders drop off a named before the Alzid Prime, Vymm fight. So, re-evaluate your arguments accordingly. <div></div>

Xxooo-Coav

04-27-2006, 07:55 PM

<P>You cant please everyone.</P> <P>In truth, if you want something truly nerfed... take it to the people who can do something about it. Dont bring it here to the boards. You are only going to [Removed for Content] people off. Do you really like inciting wars or something? [Removed for Content]!..</P> <P>I assume this all started because a fabled item was looted, only to find out it wasnt a upgrade. OMG... how could that be? How could you have been denied to be even more uberer???????</P> <P>/sigh.... </P>

Rrawl

04-27-2006, 08:15 PM

<P>BLAH. How about we get rid of Legendary and Fabled labels entirely, that don't mean a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing. OMGZ that Fabled Bixie Stinger that's still floating around is so subpar!!! While we're at it let's compare a Fabled Rubicite weapon to the legendary crafted counterpart... </P> <P>The shoulders are fine reward for the quest required to do them. If some of the gear dropping from some of the raid mobs isn't, then state your opinions as such. Its really not going to matter anyway, because the devs will do what they want. We all tooted our horns over and over again about how subpar the Ashen Disciple Gi stats are for the level required to wear and the mobs to defeat to get it... but oh well.</P> <P>Let's nerf the Queen's Carapace while we're at it, it's got too much Mit and! resists for legendary... Oh and the Manacles of the Dark Sky have too nice a proc, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] those things are only level 60 gear! Oh but you don't care about those at all, because they aren't competing for the 'moster uberest piece of gear for that slot'... Get over yourselves, it's a game. Try and enjoy it, and if the shoulders dropping from some of the Raid Mobs are underpowered in your opinion, /feedback it and go on your merry way. Just because this quest reward is a good piece of loot doesn't make them crap either... </P>

Gaige

04-27-2006, 09:20 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>So let me get this straight.<BR><BR>A reward from about 17 quests that takes minimum, probably 14-20 hrs to get to, shouldnt be compareable to items that can be gotten with a 1 group raid in 1-2 min? <FONT color=#ffff00>Nope, it shouldn't. A monk can solo almost all of those, but even if you can't you can do them with 6 people. A raid takes 24 people to do, even if the particular mob dies in only 2mins the raid certainly isn't accomplished that fast. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Combine that with the fact that when you are raiding for items there is no guarantee you'll ever get it. I probably raided Ahket Aken at least 20 on my monk (many of them as the only brawler in the raid or one with the highest DKP) and I <EM>never</EM> got the Gi of the Dark Disciple.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Any brawler who does this quest line will get these shoulders. Every single brawler on every server of the appropriate level can get them if they want.</FONT><BR><BR>Relic - trash - can drop from farm groups in lab/lycieum, all it takes is 1 rellic patter... has 110 more power, more resists, and more mit<BR>thats right noobs, relic has more mit. 140/3 + 314 = 360 mit <FONT color=#ffff00>It has more mit against slashing damage, not against crushing and piercing.</FONT></P> <P>those arms may come from a quest line that can be soloed up to that point but ur looking at 40-50 hrs of soloing to get there. Where as 1 group of decent geared raiders can get rellic arms.....so yeah pls be quiet and do some math <FONT color=#ffff00>Again, the time investment doesn't matter because it doesn't compare to the time investment required to raid.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Combine that with, like I said, the fact that oh my guild has done every instance that drops relic since KoS came out (and DT since we got access three weeks ago) and we've seen relic leather shoulders... never. However we had 12 people finish the appropriate Claymore quest last night and every single one of them got their own set of claymore shoulders at the same time.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I don't care if you agree, because opinions vary and everyone is entitled to their own, but the shoulders are too good.</FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Gaige

04-27-2006, 09:23 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>the best monk items came from instances. Yet another case of contested not having the best loot. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In T5 and T6 it could be argued that the best monk loot came off of contested. Lord Nagalik and the PoF dragons to be specific. Even if you want to say in T6 the best monk loot came from PoS and DMP - I can agree.</P> <P>However both of those are raid instances and they were crazy hard.</P> <P>Claymore quest is neither.<BR></P>

Shankonia

04-27-2006, 10:45 PM

<DIV>Name of the game is Everquest, not Everraid even though some us play it like it is. On my toon, at this point in time I am out of quests to do EXCEPT quests that involve killing Epic foes.</DIV> <DIV>It only seems logical to me that these "overpowered" shoulders were put into the game at just the right place on the road of progression - a progression that "we the uber raider" has already</DIV> <DIV>progressed beyond - a place where raiding becomes necessary to advance. Keep in mind, we raiders are the vast minority.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, I raid and I have pretty good gear to kill Epics - but what if I didn't? Could these overpowerd shoulders be the stepping stone for a non-raiding guild to become one? Do they aid</DIV> <DIV>in progressing to the next step in the Claymore quest? Do they help a recruit stay alive during a raid while he's still noober? Yes, they do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've had my shoulders for a long while, and I don't even use them unless i'm raiding or deuling a bruiser, or just popping them on then off for the HP - NEVER. Mancles of Dark Sky for the win, every single time unless what i'm fighting is immune to stiffle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't get me wrong - I do not feel as though they should be the most powerful leather shoulders in the game - but understand that I do not beleive they are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my guild I often here reference to "Primary Gear" or we are instructed to put it on. I have some items, such as weapons that ar primary, but everything else is situational for me - especially during raids.</DIV> <DIV>The fact that I must swap gear to fit my group setup and the enemy I am fighting in order to win think is necessary to play the game - especially for fighters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems there is alot of bickering over nothing to me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Anjin

04-27-2006, 11:12 PM

<DIV>The plate reward for the same quest has over 200 more mitigation than the leather version (552 vs 343) with all the other stats being the same. Are other fighter classes shouting 'Nerf'?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anjin</DIV><p>Message Edited by Herbster on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 PM</span>

zabor

04-27-2006, 11:16 PM

plate classes probably are busy complaining about the cuirass of protection, another overpowered easily obtainable item.

Cuz

04-27-2006, 11:56 PM

<DIV>Now that rare crafted gear has been nerfed to oblivion, it's quested gear's time to get raiders focus huh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suggest you try hard enough to get quested stuff to be worst than crafted. This will do 2 things, first crafters will get business again, and secondly raiders will be the undisputed kings and queens of the internet. Just the way some want it.</DIV>

Anjin

04-28-2006, 12:23 AM

<DIV>Since we have fabled BP's that have greater mitigation that the Dragonscale shoulderpads, and plate tanks have Pauldrons which have mitigation surpassing that even of the Cuirass of Protection (552 vs 536), I think they are far worse off that you are, Ryza. I think you really push the 'Why should I wear the same as somebody that isn't a hardcore raider!' line far too much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anjin</DIV>

Gaige

04-28-2006, 01:21 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herbster wrote:<BR> <DIV>Since we have fabled BP's that have greater mitigation that the Dragonscale shoulderpads<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd hope so, since bp/legs have the most mitigation generally.</P> <P>Its unfortunate then, isn't it, that no fabled shoulders have more mit than the Dragonscale ones.<BR></P>

Anjin

04-28-2006, 01:49 AM

<P>You're fully aware of what I said, Gaige. The normal/solo group orientated brawler is more than happy with the Dragonscale Shoulderpads, but raiding brawlers require a variety to ensure they are adequately covered in the resist department. Are you saying that you won't spend DKP on the other fabled shoulderpads? (and not just to gamble that the dragonscale ones will get nerfed). Prior to you and Ryza getting fabled shoulderpads, I'm sure you were very happy with your Dragonscale ones. What exactly did make you two pipe up now?</P> <P> </P> <P>Anjin</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Herbster on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 PM</span>

Gaige

04-28-2006, 02:43 AM

<P>1) I don't have dragonscale shoulders yet.</P> <P>2) I have fabled shoulders.</P> <P>3) I don't think I should have to do a heroic quest to upgrade my shoulders that I got from a raid.</P> <P>There you go.</P>

Anjin

04-28-2006, 02:57 AM

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>1) I don't have dragonscale shoulders yet.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Fair enough, surprising but fair enough.</FONT></P> <P>2) I have fabled shoulders.</P> <P>3) I don't think I should have to do a heroic quest to upgrade my shoulders that I got from a raid.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Considering what I said about the plate situation, which is right.... the fabled mitigation or the Dragonscale SP mitigation? You're both assuming it's the Dragonscale DP mitigation that is incorrect.</FONT></P> <P>There you go.</P><FONT color=#ff6600>Sorry, but those 3 points weren't the be all and end all of this topic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anjin<BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Herbster on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 AM</span>

Gungo

04-28-2006, 02:59 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herbster wrote:<BR> <DIV>The plate reward for the same quest has over 200 more mitigation than the leather version (552 vs 343) with all the other stats being the same. Are other fighter classes shouting 'Nerf'?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anjin</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Herbster on <SPAN class=date_text>04-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually yes which is where i heard the rumour it is goign to get nerfed.<BR>

Anjin

04-28-2006, 03:03 AM

<DIV>Not doubting the rumour is true, but where did you hear this rumour? From a fighter forum? Idle gossip amongst sweaty plate tanks? In the part that you quoted, I was commenting on how large the difference was between the leather and plate mitigation, not how high the leather mitigations was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anjin</DIV><p>Message Edited by Herbster on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 AM</span>

selch

04-28-2006, 03:21 AM

<P>There needs to be hope for other playstyles to keep going... <P>1 exceptional item should be left as bone to others and that does not even cover rest of fabled gear vs rest legendary gear difference. <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:28 PM</span>

digitalblasphemy

04-28-2006, 03:58 AM

I have to ask why it's so implausible a quested item is actually good for a change. Why must all gear in this game be from raiding. The class quested hats are awesome. Anyone calling for a nerfage on them? I don't recall anyone calling for nerfs for the Prismatic or Godking weapons. Why all the uproar now over an item that yes every person can strive to acquire. It's become sickening that the loudest people for changes and nerfs to equipment are the ones who took advantage of the relic no lockout timer situation, and then used that said relic to beat other raid encounters. Really it's a form of nepotism. You want the best gear only for yourself, and now that an item that anyone can work to achieve is out live in the game, you want it removed so the fabled you have is now better and your arrogance and desiring to be worshipped by others is restored.<div></div>

Xxooo-Coav

04-28-2006, 06:17 AM

<P>Change the name of the game to EverNerf, and we can all be on our merry way.</P> <P> </P> <P>If anyone at all notices, the Dragonscale shoulders have NO power, 2 stats and 1 resist. All the other shoulders (listed on the op post) has power, 3 stats and 3 resists (with exception of Storm Mantle).</P> <P>Fabled gear also tiered according to the severity of the mob in question. There has always been a low end fabled and a higher end fabled (just look at the T6 weapons for instance... Everclenched gaunts were much better than Voracious Fistwraps, yet both were fabled).... in fact, some legendary was better then low end fabled. Hence the case here, from what I can see. Its all a matter what stats you really want. Limited stats (str and hp and a minimal mit increase over the rest), or a myriad of stats that increase more than just a couple things.</P> <P> </P>

Dfoley3

04-28-2006, 08:15 AM

gaige....go equip a peiece of armor with 150 slashing mit, and look at how much actual mit it gives you....for everyone else if something says + 150 sv slashing, yes that adds slashing mit, but to your overal mit it adds 150/3 mitigation. and yes 6-8 people can go to lyceium and get rellic arms off a 1-2 min trash mob fight, and yes those rellic arms are better then dragonhide.....fact of the matter is are rellic arms gonna drop off the first mob u kill? prolly not, but on the same token , is every single quest mob u need gonna be up inorder to just zoom through the 18+ quests to get these? doubt it. dragonhide is not better then rellic, and any monk who says it is, has no clue how items in the game work, as for nagalik he had decent gear for most slots, but easily the best tunic was from motm, infact i still use cryptic tunic for procs on raids. best weapon, royal combine great flail,.......t6 best weapons - black queen, posky, dinns prism, best tunic contested, best every thing else- most from poets return/posky/black queen, i think the only good contested piece was barakahs tunic.<div></div>

Dfoley3

04-28-2006, 08:22 AM

o and fyi moonks have a 500 mitigation tunic --- plate fabled bp caps at 546 i thinkas for not having to do a heroic quest to get upgrade arms....to bad so sad, everyone and their mom has to do the quest line if they want their t7 prismatic reward. Claymore may not be pris 3.0 in everyoens eyes, but 25 random quests in a row to get a reward from a raid zone....sounds pretty similar to t6, only difference is now your rewarded as you go so less people like gaige have to whine about not feeling like they should have to do heroic quests to get the epic quest reward of an expansion<div></div>

Gaige

04-28-2006, 08:24 AM

I'm doing the claymore line for AA mainly, as the weapon doesn't impress me.

Tamo

04-28-2006, 03:21 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> I'm doing the claymore line for AA mainly, as the weapon doesn't impress me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Same here. Also the shoulders aren't nearly that impressive anyways. Proc is fine. Mitigation could stand to lose maybe 30 but thats it nothng substantial.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. I am Mr. Average Monk</P>

Gungo

04-28-2006, 04:46 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>o and fyi moonks have a 500 mitigation tunic --- plate fabled bp caps at 546 i think<BR><BR>as for not having to do a heroic quest to get upgrade arms....to bad so sad, everyone and their mom has to do the quest line if they want their t7 prismatic reward. Claymore may not be pris 3.0 in everyoens eyes, but 25 random quests in a row to get a reward from a raid zone....sounds pretty similar to t6, only difference is now your rewarded as you go so less people like gaige have to whine about not feeling like they should have to do heroic quests to get the epic quest reward of an expansion<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>WoW Dfoley you really just spewed out a bunch of bad info. The thread prior to this stated you still use the cryptic tunic on raids for its proc. Reread yoru gear the procs on them don't work on any mobs past 60 (slow/stun) and the direct damage and stats would be better with many other Bp's including relic chest for the extra damage on your combat art. </P> <P>Plate fabled BP certainly do not cap at 546. The T6 Crusader godking BP caps at 600mit. The CoP caps well above that. The Best BP for a brawler mit wise drops in lycuem and its 496mit if you include the +S/C/P. But then i find it odd you didn't includ ethose in any of the plate equivlants. </P> <P>The majoirty of dam done by npcs is crushing thus all that slashing from relic is quite useless. Only in rare situations so yes many many brawlers still use the Dragon hide over the relic why? becuase 1000slashig resist still wont help when 80% of all damage from NPC's is crushing.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:52 AM</span>

Dfoley3

04-28-2006, 04:57 PM

Gungo- go look at a cryptic bp. The debuffs dont work on 60+ mobs, the DD proc does however. And one more dd proc is just enough to be worth it while dpsing. Anyone who raids hardcore knows about procs and this bp. I have the monk lyceium bp, its 346 mit + 149 sv p/c/s and it does add like 498 mit. The refrence to 546 for plate bps was in refrence to fabled t7 plate bps... i know CoP is different, and i know crusader god king bp is also. Most guards replace CoP with actual fabled bps once they start raiding. Go check the threads on it in the item forum. Even if a item adds 150 vs slashing, the over all effect is it adds 1/3 of that to your general mit. No offense gungo but all 3 of your points werent true or not the whole truth.....<div></div>

PrometheusO

04-28-2006, 08:08 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>well let's talk about the shoulders from hurricanus, a contested, which have less mitigation, hp, str, and avoidance than the dragonscale shoulder pads.<BR>With wiping a few times during the first triesetc. you will need at least ~4 hrs to kill hurricanus for the first time - if you are a hardcore guild and have no hard competition. With gearing up etc., the estimated time for killing that mob is at 10 hrs. 24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs. So killing hurricanus needs a lot more work than that claymore quest, but still the reward is worse. I do not think that is right.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is what many people call "Cover by Numbers". Basically, they take the cumulative effort of many to justify their argument. The fact is it did not take "You" 240 hrs to complete the epic encounter. It took "4 Hours" of "Your" time versus the 24-30 hrs of an individuals time required for some of the quest in this game. Yes, raids take alot of team work and coordination. I agree. The payoff should be accordingly. Raids are not easy mainly because the biggest effort is not the battle but the coordination of them. But to try and use this kind of math to justify an argument is very elementary.</P> <P>Raiders are no better than the person who takes 24+ hour quests. In fact, the 24+ hour quest is just another variation of a raid designed for soloers or small groups, in regards to time and effort invested. There is no argument for "Raids are more difficult then..." because what takes a raider 2 or 3 hours to complete will take a small group perhaps a few days to a week or so.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sensai Musashi</P> <P> </P>

Gaige

04-28-2006, 08:10 PM

True, but quests give rewards everytime to every person that does them. That alone should lessen the quality of the loot somewhat because of that fact. Especially when comparing a quest reward to something a tier higher.

PrometheusO

04-28-2006, 08:12 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> True, but quests give rewards everytime to every person that does them. That alone should lessen the quality of the loot somewhat because of that fact. Especially when comparing a quest reward to something a tier higher.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Now I completely agree with you on Tier aspect of the item.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sensai Musashi</P>

Gungo

04-28-2006, 11:00 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>Gungo- go look at a cryptic bp. The debuffs dont work on 60+ mobs, the DD proc does however. And one more dd proc is just enough to be worth it while dpsing. Anyone who raids hardcore knows about procs and this bp. <BR><BR>I have the monk lyceium bp, its 346 mit + 149 sv p/c/s and it does add like 498 mit. The refrence to 546 for plate bps was in refrence to fabled t7 plate bps... i know CoP is different, and i know crusader god king bp is also. Most guards replace CoP with actual fabled bps once they start raiding. Go check the threads on it in the item forum. <BR><BR>Even if a item adds 150 vs slashing, the over all effect is it adds 1/3 of that to your general mit. <BR><BR>No offense gungo but all 3 of your points werent true or not the whole truth.....<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Dfoley reread my post i said the Stun/slow didnt work and the DD did. I also said the stats and the damage off relic is better. Anyone who raids knows about procs and that BP. Especially when i wrote the first thread on procs and double atks weeks ago. You know what ill give you this one as a choice vs the relic. Personally even w 96% doubel atk and 100% haste this specific proc vs the dam increase on the relic is close. After the proc nerf i doubt the loss in stats miti and procs and +skills will be worth continuing to use this item.</P> <P>You should also reread that thread on the CoP most guards do NOT replace the CoP unless its the hurricanus BP with the tuant proc. Go recheck that forum again becuase its like a 10-1 ratio of people who use the CoP vs fabled.</P> <P> I Dont care if relic leather arms adds 130 slash MOST DAMAGE IS CRUSHING. I explained all this You just happend to comprehend the issue poorly. slash does nothing vs most encounters. You are completely wrong The overall effect is it adds 1/3 to your Displayed Persona Mitigation. </P> <P>furthermore you include the C/S/P on the leather tunics but fail to include them in your Plate ones. If you are goign to compare the relic 554 mitigation compare it to the leather relic w 0 c/s/p not the best fabled. Becuase every other fabled plate tunics have higher mitigation. Doomrage is 561 and the high priest is 553+72 slashing.</P> <P>so yes all my points were valid. I supplied the examples. you just didn't provide the whole truth.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:19 PM</span>

Rrawl

04-29-2006, 01:37 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <P> I Dont care if relic leather arms adds 130 slash MOST DAMAGE IS CRUSHING.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While I agree, in KOS there's a lot more slashing and piercing mobs, especialy nameds and epics, then there were prior to its release. Crushing is still by and far the most prevalent, but when every last bit of mit really counts (nameds and epics) there's a LOT of slashing and piercing in this expansion.</P>

selch

05-04-2006, 07:40 PM

<DIV>Who said nerf system automatically works?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This shoulderpad has been nerfed with last patch, while plate & chain versions remaining same for equivalents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So this system does not work, it works by whining. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And here I can actually laugh at new fabled nerfs too.. So you can't blame me "for loving the nerfs for brawler loot, while you way before asked same for other loots"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whine more cry babies, I'll be glad to laugh at more fabled nerfs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah, risk (mender cost) vs reward, I agree that <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Oh yeah, you can sue me.. <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:48 AM</span>

Gaige

05-04-2006, 09:01 PM

<P>I'm glad the shoulders got nerfed, now they are line with their tier.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>As for the fabled nerfs, I wouldn't care - as long as they still make sense and align items correctly. The thread I posted in items and equipment about the Lyceum quest reward isn't in line with tiers at all.</P>

selch

05-04-2006, 09:23 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>I'm glad the shoulders got nerfed, now they are line with their tier.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>As for the fabled nerfs, I wouldn't care - as long as they still make sense and align items correctly. The thread I posted in items and equipment about the Lyceum quest reward isn't in line with tiers at all.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know, as I said before, plate & chain rewards still "not inline" but only brawler quest reward so, so this is a targeted (lets not say nerf) fix, so it works, wanted to congratulate on Ryza & yours effort at least I'm glad that we brawlers are very sticking each other than rest... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, both does not effect me much too. Just laughing at irony about what I'm said last night on channel "Why would you like a nerf on 2x mitigation brawler equipment?" while talking about Lyceum items, well, so I can easily say now "have to be inline without too much gap, and not my equipment", so can shrug <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

zabor

05-06-2006, 12:56 PM

the dragonscale pads are now much more reasonable. Just a shame that lyceum has been nerfed a lot, but that loot was a bit overpowered compared to deathtoll, too. So only deathtoll needs a bit of a boost right now.

Xxooo-Coav

05-06-2006, 06:14 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>the dragonscale pads are now much more reasonable. Just a shame that lyceum has been nerfed a lot, but that loot was a bit overpowered compared to deathtoll, too. So only deathtoll needs a bit of a boost right now.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Let me know when you are finally happy with the loot, and I will come back and enjoy the game without further loot nerfs.

selch

05-06-2006, 07:09 PM

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>So only deathtoll needs a bit of a boost right now.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I think it is fairly good of its Tier and easiness of getting it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even could use more nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:11 AM</span>

zabor

05-06-2006, 08:10 PM

that was a really poor try at trolling!

selch

05-06-2006, 08:16 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>that was a really poor try at trolling!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not really, compared to your every "I'm uberz, you are losers" post, I don't think it is..</P> <P> </P>

Gaige

05-06-2006, 08:39 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> selch wrote: <P>Not really, compared to your every "I'm uberz, you are losers" post, I don't think it is..</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Selch, I think sometimes you should have something to say before you hit submit.<BR>

zabor

05-06-2006, 09:33 PM

On such occassions its really a shame my ignore list doesnt work <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(

selch

05-06-2006, 10:15 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>On such occassions its really a shame my ignore list doesnt work <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>sadly, mine too.. having to read mindless "we deserve it" yellow junk all the time at any between posts...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 AM</span>

Balmore

05-08-2006, 02:28 PM

I wouldn't love some one to run around with a legendary so close to my fabled item. I am casual player and I don't raid a lot -- but still.You know, the latest (upcoming as of this writing) fix(es) to stuns and stifles -- the 2.5s change. When I first saw it, I was like "Hmm? This is a nerf!"I even have posted a comment that read "The stick is doing critical damage". But later, when I looked at well, I found that fix is one of the best things ever. Why?Lv. 70 Monk came -- soloed mid-sixties named -- while the group trying to get it for hours were watching him doing it so fast and efficient. Mob was stunned for some good amount of time that allowed the Monk to achieve great results. He got hit and hit hard after his stuns were down. Then poof, Outward and Tsunami, poof, Heal, stuns up again. You can figure out the rest. With the new 2.5s limit, that Monk would've had a harder time if s/he will ever gets to win the fight.My point is, sit at your opponent's seat and look at it. Raiders level (fast) to enjoy raiding content and be rewarded with great stuff. Stuff they worked their and their raid members ends for. If you were a raider, would you accept such a change? I know I will.Tip: /feedback is not /destroy.My two copper coins.Enjoy it! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Balmore on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:30 PM</span>

mR_jOHNNO

05-08-2006, 06:55 PM

So are these shoulders actually any good now after the nerf ? I was just about to put a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] load of time into these Claymore quests as its about the only way left for my alt monk to get some upgrades as my mains a mystic and I raid with that..But if the "ubers" are going to deny me any half decent items in this game then sod it..i'll put my time and effort into something else instead..Im with the majority of people in this thread.. nobody disagree's that the people who take out the hardest mobs in the game should'nt get the majority of the best items in the game..Those of us who raid do get the best stuff most of the time already..Most healers I know that raid still use GEB's which are a t5 heritage quest reward along with the manastone which can be obtained through "easy" quests..Do you hear all the healers crying for nerfs on these items as theres not a lot in t7 raiding they can get to replace them as because its quested they are not as worthy as something you have to raid for..I would personally like to see more up to date items we can replace these things with seeing how we are now 20-40 lvls out of the use by date..But..FFS..im just sick and tired of a certain few on these forums who's sole mission in life is to ruin other peoples enjoyment of the game..There's nothing worse than logging on the next day after you've put your time and effort into getting a decent item to find its been nerfed because of someones whinging.. Why should'nt someone who doesnt raid be denied access to any item thats nice.?. There seems to be this perception that anyone who raids is a more skilled player than someone who doesnt.. Thats bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ..Its more like the drunken bloke standing in the pub car park after hours who's got the back up of a large group of mates standing behind him.. He's bound to win because as soon as the guy his picking on lands a punch all his boys are going to jump in and dish out a beat down..Its not going to harm any of you "uber raiders" if there is the occasional item out there that can be obtained by normal questing or grouping that might be better in a certain way than something you have.. Dont be greedy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ers and demand that everything you get in battle should instantly be better because the fact is a lot of raid encounters are as trivial as some of the quests and group encounters you pour scorn upon so often..All it does is make you look like self obsessed wankers and taints the good work you do getting bugged encounters and class issues fixed..<div></div>

zabor

05-08-2006, 07:39 PM

SoE fixed the buggy shoulderpads, so any more discussions about this topic are a waste of time.

selch

05-08-2006, 08:11 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>SoE fixed the buggy shoulderpads, so any more discussions about this topic are a waste of time.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They were not buggy, so chain & plate versions too. Leather ones are nerfed (not fixed) and we are not discussing anymore about them but the case leading it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

mR_jOHNNO

05-08-2006, 08:44 PM

So as the smarmy little kid sits in the front row of the class room proclaiming... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> "Please Sir.. SoE fixed the buggy shoulderpads, so any more discussions about this topic are a waste of time."I sure hope you dont believe in karma and what goes around comes around and concepts such as those ..That smug feeling of satisfaction lasts about as long as it takes you to open your packed lunch box to find the other kids in the class decided to experiment on your peanut butter sandwhiches with bodily fluids.. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

DarkerApprenti

05-08-2006, 10:10 PM

The fact is the shoulders may have, indeed, needed a tone down on their mitigation (a bit) but, taken as a complete package, they were not better than a lot of fabled gear. They reduced the mitigation and now you're fine with it. So, really all that was being questioned was their mitigation. The bloodsplatter gloves used to give 27 or so str (only stat mod) and some high resists...they were summarily nerfed and rightfully so for being treasured but SOE did not need anyone telling them to do this. They did it on their own. My only complaint is not that they are nerfed...so what? Maybe they should have been. My complaint is that you sit here on the Monk forums begging for a nerf on an item that a lot of monks are striving to achieve when there are other channels in place for you to inform Sony about items that are unbalanced. Just don't think this forum is the place for that. Just my opinion and this is, in no way, any statement of support or condemnation on the shoulderpads. They may have needed a nerf but...post elsewhere for nerfs bro.<div></div>

Anjin

05-09-2006, 01:56 PM

<P>I really hope your guild are finding it a lot tougher now you actually have some competition with Defiant moving across from Splitpaw. I've heard that they're having a whale of a time atm!! I wouldn't normally gloat, but your attitude sucks. You're just a self centered [Removed for Content].</P> <P>Anjin</P>

DarkMirrax

05-09-2006, 09:38 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herbster wrote:<BR> <P>I really hope your guild are finding it a lot tougher now you actually have some competition with Defiant moving across from Splitpaw. I've heard that they're having a whale of a time atm!! I wouldn't normally gloat, but your attitude sucks. You're just a self centered [Removed for Content].</P> <P>Anjin</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/AMEN , Great raiding guild who are gonna kick your [Removed for Content] .... </P> <P>oh and gaige thank you, you total [Removed for Content] for getting a nice item nurfed , why do we bother playing this game when some idiot like YOU can turn aound and declare this item is overpower and that item is underpowered ... newsflash dude ... YOU ARNT A DEV SO STOP ACTING LIKE YOU ARE PLEASE. </P> <P>I dont get why you would go out of your way to deliberatly get a good brawler item nurfed ?? you know only the leather has changed so i guess all those chummy PMs to moorguard have paid off. </P> <P>While we are on this subject lets just list some more good items that we can go get nurfed because raiders say so .....</P> <P>I am glad they nurfed your fabled pieces now i really am i hope it makes you appriciate what you have done to others , those who worked there butts off to get an item that YOU delcare overpowered. Why dont you just play the game instead of post " /shrug IM UBERZ SO There" all the time ??????</P> <P>I had a lot of respect for you before but thats gone and im sure you will not care one bit , we are supposed to be getting items improved for fellow brawlers NOT get them nurfed with all the crap going on with brusiers stuns being nurfed this really helps . THANK YOU SO MUCH </P> <P> </P> <P>/Edited to actually tone it down as im a bit peeved off</P><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class=date_text>05-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:41 PM</span>

Asheng

05-09-2006, 10:02 PM

The change in the shoulderpads isn't going to affect anyone hardly at all. It's still better then anything else out there for non-raiders, but now makes fabled a bit more worthwhile to get.Relic pieces, I don't like seeing compared at all. Casual players can easily get into groups to farm them with just 6 hour lockouts. I see pickup groups forming multiple times a day to farm relic.Like I said in chat, what it all really comes down to has nothing to do with loot.Raiders are not casual players. Casual players are not raiders. Casual players do NOT MEAN QUESTERS. Most raiders do the same quests, as most raiders would be better defined as hard-core players. When you are a casual player, or even a raider, and you see someone with better equipment, you get a sense of, "man I wish i had that," or ", wow thats nice, I want one of those." You feel a little inadequate in your own equipment, and jealous that you don't have that piece of equipment. When someone with fabled, that has nice equipment sees a more casual player in legendary/treasured, he thinks "Man, my equipment is so much better," or "My character rocks compared to theirs."This causes friction between both sides when they start debating over any topic. Everyone wants the loots, but if everyone has them, there is no accomplishment or feeling of being the best. I want the best, and I play to get the best. I don't play a mmo, because I enjoy chatting a lot. I like the competition. It's no different then the real world, where you get educated, get a job, work your way up to a bigger paycheck to buy nicer things. White collar vs blue collar vs executive.When a raider sees a piece of equipment that is better/compareable to something that he wastes dkp and his guild time/effort for, it takes away from the glory/meaningfullness of the loot. That is also compounded by the fact that with no level increase, loot is going to reach a threshold where they can't really increase it that much. So if legendary starts on too high of a level, fabeled isn't going to have much room to grow. Anyway, Im a raider, and I liked the shoulders, and could really care less what other people thought about them, in fact, I still like the shoulders, and I wear them often. But there should not be non-raid items that come so close to raid-fabled rewards. Stuff from infiltration quests, items, were good. Don't bring up godking because that required a x4 raid, that a lot of people couldn't do till t7. <div></div>

zabor

05-09-2006, 10:09 PM

I dont know why everyone is still complaining.SoE had two options:a) nerf the dragonscale shouldersb) remove all fabled shoulderpads from the gameSoE chose the only reasonable option.

DarkMirrax

05-09-2006, 10:27 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>I dont know why everyone is still complaining.<BR><BR>SoE had two options:<BR><BR>a) nerf the dragonscale shoulders<BR><BR>b) remove all fabled shoulderpads from the game<BR><BR><BR>SoE chose the only reasonable option.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Im complaining for one reason only "Why are we going out of our way to get items nurfed , have we not learnt yet !!!!! !???????????"</P> <P>Yes the item probably would have been changed but why should WE bring it to there attenion ? can we not just enjoy a nice item without players actally calling for a nurf to items ?? whats the game coming to !!!" </P> <P>Should we not be asking wheres the Fabled Black uber Gi from T7 or where are player crafted GI's , dyes for our amour , new character traits for different classes etc etc the list is endless ......</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

zabor

05-09-2006, 10:32 PM

So we are supposed to report bugs that are annoying, and exploit the bugs we can benefit from, while keeping them secret & not reporting them? Very nice attitude.

DarkMirrax

05-09-2006, 10:56 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>So we are supposed to report bugs that are annoying, and exploit the bugs we can benefit from, while keeping them secret & not reporting them? Very nice attitude.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Did i say that then ? dont think so </P> <P>Where does it say the item was a bug ? nowhere it was classified as overpowered by certain players and not the devs , why not concentrating on actually fixing items to benifit us instead of making them detrimental to us ?? hey its all in the name of balance right ? yea im sarcastic but as you can appriciate i pay to play the game just like others and am entitled to my opinion and my opinion is that it was fine how it was but hey im not an uber raiding guildie so my opinion doesnt count</P> <P>and hey im sorry if my attitude comes accross the wrong way but as gaige would say</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>sides im a bruiser so bite me :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P>

selch

05-09-2006, 11:41 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>So we are supposed to report bugs that are annoying, and exploit the bugs we can benefit from, while keeping them secret & not reporting them? Very nice attitude.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Was it exploit? Was it bug? It is just your opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If so, you should edit your "best soloing efforts" topic as "I used a exploited shoulders on a exploited mob" , wonder why you did not do that</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 PM</span>

Gaige

05-09-2006, 11:44 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>oh and gaige thank you, you total [Removed for Content] for getting a nice item nurfed , why do we bother playing this game when some idiot like YOU can turn aound and declare this item is overpower and that item is underpowered ... newsflash dude ... YOU ARNT A DEV SO STOP ACTING LIKE YOU ARE PLEASE. <FONT color=#ffff00>I just posted that I felt an overpowered item should be fixed. Some others did too. I can't make changes, I can just suggest them - like any player here.</FONT></P> <P>I had a lot of respect for you before but thats gone and im sure you will not care one bit , we are supposed to be getting items improved for fellow brawlers NOT get them nurfed with all the crap going on with brusiers stuns being nurfed this really helps . THANK YOU SO MUCH <FONT color=#ffff00>I do care about my fellow brawlers, I'm sorry that you can't see that.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Anjin

05-10-2006, 02:26 AM

<P>Honestly, are you THAT stupid? You've basically pushed for the leather item to be nerfed, not any other armor class, just leather, and that's what has happened. Why don't you and Gaige read my previous posts. You two have basically pushed for only the brawler item of all the items in a quest to be nerfed. Have you no idea how that feels to other brawlers? It doesn't affect me personally that much, but it puts out a seriously self centered image.</P> <P>Anjin</P>

Anjin

05-10-2006, 02:29 AM

<P>I'll add that is further broadens the divide between raiders and non-raiders. You two may want to be the uber two on the block, posing on street corners, but don't pull other people down because of your views. I'm in a raiding guild and I'd saddened by what has happened.</P> <P>Anjin</P>

DarkerApprenti

05-10-2006, 04:06 AM

<div>Never said that we shouldn't report such things; just not here in the monk forums. If you want an item nerfed go to the appropriate forum...which, as I see from your history you do. And you complain when an item isn't powerful enough and complain when an item is too powerful. You just like to complain. I get it. Some people have to do that.<blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:So we are supposed to report bugs that are annoying, and exploit the bugs we can benefit from, while keeping them secret & not reporting them? Very nice attitude.<hr></blockquote></div>

scalzo

05-10-2006, 12:24 PM

All I can say is wow. Everyone take a deep breath and lets chill awhile :smileywink:

Zooce

05-10-2006, 01:06 PM

<P>I agree with Scalzo, deeeeeep breath.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Uth

05-10-2006, 02:00 PM

<DIV>/agree chill down a bit, its just a game and supposed to be fun for all of us! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PEACE and safe ride for all brawler bikers out there! :smileytongue:</DIV>

selch

05-10-2006, 02:21 PM

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Uthar wrote:<BR> <DIV>/agree chill down a bit, its just a game and supposed to be fun for<FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG> all of us!</STRONG></FONT> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PEACE and safe ride for all brawler bikers out there! :smileytongue:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Seems some does not want this so this thread has been opened.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

Uth

05-10-2006, 04:14 PM

<DIV>I agree tho on this post shouldnt been opened, if enough /bug it they may change it or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Uthar on <span class=date_text>05-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:15 PM</span>

tuli

05-10-2006, 04:29 PM

<DIV>Yet another attempt for much traitorious and disloyal against whole brawlers for their own uberness show-case display.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

PrometheusO

05-10-2006, 07:40 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>So we are supposed to report bugs that are annoying, and exploit the bugs we can benefit from, while keeping them secret & not reporting them? Very nice attitude.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Your reading comprehension is poor and your observational skills are just as bad. This item was not buggy nor an exploit. That is something you made up to jusitify your view on the item of discusssion. Face it. That is what it is.</P> <P>What is sad we, as a collective group, have become (or are becoming) the jedi of the EQ2 community. It seems lately we have been harming ourselves for than any other class. It seems we are intent on continuing on this path. This is very sad and disturbing.</P> <P>Sensai Musashi</P> <P>Message Edited by PrometheusO on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:42 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by PrometheusO on <span class=date_text>05-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

Azazel-Defia

05-11-2006, 05:14 AM

<DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>PrometheusO wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>zaboron wrote:<BR>So we are supposed to report bugs that are annoying, and exploit the bugs we can benefit from, while keeping them secret & not reporting them? Very nice attitude.</DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV><BR>Your reading comprehension is poor and your observational skills are just as bad. <STRONG>This item was not buggy nor an exploit. That is something you made up to jusitify your view on the item of discusssion.</STRONG> Face it. That is what it is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just wanted to point out the truth in this statement. This item was not bugged, it was not out of line, and it wasnt in need of a nerf.</DIV> <DIV>What it was- It was perfectly designed with brawler tanks in mind, it was placed in a long quest as a reward for that specific purpose. It is one of the only items intelligently designed for brawler use. For people to complain was incredibly shortsigted and ridiculous. Every item compared to the Dragonscale Shoulder Pads was superior in many aspects. None of them was specifically designed for the purpose that the Qeynos quest reward was.</DIV> <DIV>Before letting your cyber egos get bruised you should have done some in depth questioning about how the items were designed. Developers have been very close mouthed about their mechanics. From every snippet I have seen, it appears that items have a specific point allocation value based off of level and tier. The developer can spend these points on stats, effects, and bonuses. This kind of system insures that items will be generally balanced. Lets take a close look at the items in question and compare them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dragonscale Shoulder</DIV> <DIV>60pts Character stats<BR>110 Health/power<BR>639 dmg resist<BR>7 skill stat<BR>effect +200 hlth<BR>313 mit (Should be 343)</DIV> <DIV><BR>Dragonide Shoulder (Druid version)</DIV> <DIV>60 stats<BR>110 hlth/pow<BR>3195 dmg resist<BR>7 skill stat<BR>effect 5% pow<BR>253 mit</DIV> <DIV><BR>What we see from this comparison? All stats are identical other than mitigation and damage resists. On the original sets- the 36% higher physical mitigation that was seen on the brawler designed pair was balanced by a 400% increase in dmg resistances on the druid designed pair. After the shortsighted nerf calls, that comparison is now a 24% mit advantage compared to a 400% resist advantage. Well wait, maybe this is right, maybe this item was given too much mitigation at design making it overly powerful. Lets look at the other items in this particular quest reward shall we???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dragonscale Pauldrons</DIV> <DIV>60 stats<BR>110 h/p<BR>639 resist<BR>7 skill<BR>effect +200 hlth<BR>552 mit</DIV> <DIV><BR>Dragonhide Pauldrons</DIV> <DIV>60 stats<BR>110 h/p<BR>3195 resist<BR>7 skill<BR>effect 5% pow<BR>403 mit</DIV> <DIV><BR>These are the plate comparisons. On the surface they look very similar. Let's look at the numbers. The Fighter designed pair of plate have a mitigation advantage over the priest designed ones. If we are going to stick with our overpowered item theory the advantage should be only 24%. Punch the old calculator and.....OMG it is a 37% advantage in mitigation being traded for a 400% resist advantage!!! It is within 1% of the original difference between the leather items, and in fact the plate advantage is higher!! This quest reward sure seems well designed to be balanced!!</DIV> <DIV>Let's do more comparison. Lets compare the mitigations across armor types. We can compare the Fighter versions across type and the priest verisions. Comparing the Priest Leather and Priest Plate.... we see a 59% mitigation advantage to the plate wearer with all other stats equal. Now the leather, remember it is overpowered so our numbers are going to be really unusual. Punch the old calculator....OMG the plate armor has a 61% advantage in mitigation over the leather with all other stats being equal. That is within 2% of the priest verions, and it actually is skewed with the disadvantage to the leather brawler armor, to be perfectly balanced it would need a few more mit points! Wait, I should check the new numbers- 76% mitigation advantage to the plate armor??!?! That doesnt seem to be more balanced. The original rewards were very well balanced, now they just seem way off with a huge disadvantage going to brawlers.</DIV> <DIV>Oh but wait, lets look at a comparison to Fabled gear. After all we got into this discussion by trying to compare apples to BMWs anyway right??? Someone out there felt insecure about their nice shoulderpads and thought the quest reward ones were designed to well for brawlers. For shame- why should anyone design items well for a specific subclass in mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crescent Moon Shoulders</DIV> <DIV>70 stats<BR>220 h/p<BR>1440 resist<BR>+140 resist physical<BR>314 mit</DIV> <DIV><BR>Spaulders of Annihilation</DIV> <DIV>70 stats<BR>220 h/p<BR>1440 resist<BR>+140 resist physical<BR>502 mit</DIV> <DIV><BR>The first pair are monk shoulders, the second are berserker plate. Both are relic and 1 level lower fabled items.</DIV> <DIV>Comparing values of Dragonscale to Crescent Moon.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>17% stats disadvantage<BR>100% h/p disadvantage<BR>125% dmg resist disadvantage<BR>7pt skill advantage<BR>140 pt physical resist disadvantage<BR>9% mitigation advantage.......(new numbers: .5% disadvantage)</DIV> <DIV><BR>Comparing Plate Dragonscale to Annihilation.....</DIV> <DIV>17% stats dis<BR>100% h/p dis<BR>125% dmg resist dis<BR>7 pt skill adv<BR>140 pt resist phys dis<BR>10% mitigation advantage</DIV> <DIV><BR>Originally these pieces looked well balanced across armor types, tiers, lvls, and classes. Now the brawler item is vastly inferior in all respects. Rather than being a lvl 68 Legendary reward targetted for brawlers, it is now more like a lvl 62 or 63 reward.</DIV> <DIV>The only reason to have wanted this item changed was to maintain a personal sense of elitism. Brawlers have been clamoring for targetted gear that specifically adresses the needs of our classes, the second it is offered to us someone flakes out because they dont feel special enough.</DIV> <DIV>Comparing risk vs reward for an involved quest or a raid is ridiculous. Both take large investments of time, effort , and coordination. It is a joke that some ridiculous envy has now made a brawler reward vastly inferior and negatively unbalanced.</DIV> <DIV>If this item needed a change, the change should have included some type of improvement to another area. If they only will add to resistances, the new resistance total on Dragonscale should be 960 rather than 639. And if they do that, they need to adjust all types rather than unfairly targetting just leather. The arbitrary reduction in mitigation for one quest reward was ridiculous and laughable. For God's sake, look before you leap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Az<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:15 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:16 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:17 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <span class=date_text>05-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:18 PM</span>

zabor

05-11-2006, 06:15 PM

tl;dr

selch

05-11-2006, 07:00 PM

<P>"I'm uberz, should be uberZ, I dont read your pathetic calculationZ"</P> <P>Being shameless priceless</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:11 AM</span>

shaolen

05-12-2006, 06:37 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Uthar wrote:<BR> <DIV>/agree chill down a bit, its just a game and supposed to be fun for all of us! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PEACE and safe ride for all brawler bikers out there! :smileytongue:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The fellings you see expressed here run much deeper than this one thread my brother. That is why it is hard for folks to calm down, and for this thread to die.

Azazel-Defia

05-17-2006, 11:33 AM

<DIV>I apologize that I was too wordy in my earlier post. Maybe it was difficult to read. To help fix that problem I have rewritten my original post. It is much shorter, in fact it now <U>falls within the size requirements for a /feedback post in game</U>. Feel free to copy and paste it any time you wish. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>************************************************** *************************************************</DIV> <DIV> <P>The recent reduction in effect of the Qeynos Claymore quest shoulder reward for brawlers needs to be reversed. The previous statistics on the item were perfectly balanced, and it can be proven. View the following statistical information.</P> <P>Dragonscale Shoulder (Brawler)</P> <P>60 stats</P> <P>110 h/p</P> <P>639 resist</P> <P>7 skill</P> <P>effect +200 hlth</P> <P>313 mit (Original 343) </P> <P> </P> <P>Dragonide Shoulder (Druid version) </P> <P>60 stats</P> <P>110 h/p</P> <P>3195 resist</P> <P>7 skill</P> <P>effect 5% pow</P> <P>253 mit </P> <P> </P> <P>Using the original stats the 36% higher physical mitigation on the brawler pair was balanced by a 400% increase in dmg resistances on the druid pair. The new stats show a 24% mit advantage. For comparison look at the plate rewards for the same quest.</P> <P>Dragonscale Pauldrons (Fighter)</P> <P>552 mit </P> <P> </P> <P>Dragonhide Pauldrons (Priest)</P> <P>403 mit </P> <P> </P> <P>The Fighter plate mitigation advantage over the priest item is 37%. It is within 1% of the original difference between the leather items, and in fact the plate advantage is higher! Comparing the Priest Leather and Priest Plate we see a 59% mitigation advantage to the plate wearer with all other stats equal. The original fighter armors show the plate with a 61% advantage in mitigation. That is within 2% of the priest verions, and it actually is skewed with the disadvantage to the brawler armor. The new stats change the advantage to 76%? A huge new disparity. Comparison to relic armor also shows the new imbalance.</P> <P>Comparing values of Dragonscale to Crescent Moon</P> <P>17% stats disadvantage</P> <P>100% h/p dis</P> <P>125% resist dis</P> <P>7pt skill advantage</P> <P>140 pt resist phys dis</P> <P>9% mit advantage (new numbers: .5% dis) </P> <P> </P> <P>Comparing Plate Dragonscale to Annihilation</P> <P>17% stats dis</P> <P>100% h/p dis</P> <P>125% dmg resist dis</P> <P>7 pt skill adv</P> <P>140 pt resist phys dis</P> <P>10% mit advantage </P> <P>Originally these pieces were balanced across armor types, tiers, lvls, and classes. Now the brawler item is far less valuable. The change should not have unfairly singled out the brawler reward, and any change made should have maintained the overall value of the item.</P> <P>************************************************** ************************************************** ****************************</P> <P>On a second note, does anyone know who is in charge of itemization of items such as this? I would be interested to hear their reasoning and point by point explanation to the new imbalances created by the change.</P> <P>Az</P></DIV>

Code2501

05-17-2006, 12:38 PM

<P>Ryza has a history of posting without thinking on the implications so I'll just leave it at that, but Gaige... you know how itemisation has a heavy trade-off factor now... if there was a gap in itemisation for fabled shoulder pieces (no high mitigation piece) then you really should have asked for one to be made and point it out like it was... a gap. Asking for a nerf on an item that clearly was intended as a trade-off of resists for mit was foolish.</P> <P>To go further, you belittled the efforts of players who compleate a lenghty quest line, which requires many named mobs that can require hours upon hours of camping (you think organising a raid is hard, try convincing 6 people to sit in one room for 5 hours just to get one of those named mobs). That Gaige is just plain reprehensible, and you are wrong for doing so.</P>

Gaige

05-17-2006, 08:45 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Code2501 wrote:<BR> <P>To go further, you belittled the efforts of players who compleate a lenghty quest line, which requires many named mobs that can require hours upon hours of camping (you think organising a raid is hard, try convincing 6 people to sit in one room for 5 hours just to get one of those named mobs). That Gaige is just plain reprehensible, and you are wrong for doing so.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't feel that is the case. I've done (or are working on) the Claymore line and I've camped my fair share of named. It isn't hard though and you are still just killing heroics. Its simply time consuming.</P> <P>You don't even have to wait, most people just choose to. You could simply play until you are going through the zone for something else and see the named. I mean heck, most of those named I killed randomly while grinding and didn't even realize what they were for.</P> <P>In the end its still just a quest reward. Whoever does the quest will get it. For that reason alone those items should be less desirable than drops. Not by a lot, but certainly by a little.</P> <P>Drops are random, especially in regard to raid drops. Its quite possible you may do a raid 25+ times and never see the drop you're waiting on. Or you may see it and lose to roll to another guildie.</P> <P>My point is given the fact it was legendary and a quest reward I felt it was overpowered. Granted I understand how item tradeoffs work, but excuse me for not finding any tradeoff in the pre-adjusted shoulders.</P> <P>They had +60 to stats, +health, +resist, +mit, +defense. They only thing they didn't have was power, which was indirectly applied through the str on them.</P> <P>To look at them honestly when compared to fabled shoulders dropping off raids and say they were in line... you just can't do it.<BR></P>

Code2501

05-18-2006, 05:05 AM

<P>Gaige, you call the quest line time consuming rather than difficult, we'll the exact same line of thought can validly be applied to raiding, you simply refuse to acknolwledge that. And clearly whilst they do have resists the resist are sub par when compared to fabled and even some ledgendary items.</P> <P>I raid, so I know how difficult it can be to gain those fabled items, however one of the key differences between you and me is that I am respectfull of those whom don't/can't raid, and the efforts they put into the game. You may think it is a breeze to whip through 20 odd quests, but without your guild mates or raid loot you might actually learn to apreciate the challenge the questline presents. A 6 hour camp for 6 people is the equivalent to a 1-2 hour x4 raid in terms of commitment, that much you fail to acknowledge. Do that several times over a period of weeks and that would be several raids... after several raids most people in the raid party would have come out with something(pending dkp and varied zones). </P> <P>What some people ignore in the risk vs reward argument is the word effort... Risk is just that risky, you should NOT automaticaly be rewarded with the best stuff in the game just because you took a risk... risk does NOT allways pay off. Effort however is just as measurable as risk and SHOULD always pay dividends scaled to the effort involved, obvioulsy the scale is gentler than that of potential payouts on risk, but neither scale should be capped by the other. There is no logical reason why putting a heap of effort into something in this game (god forbid a quest series) should automatically result in a reward that is inferior in every way to what can be acquired through moderate risk and moderate effort.</P> <P>I guess I don't really care to change your mind on the point gaige, you rarely do change your opinion once its set, but for the sake of community please don't belittle other playstyles to fit your own personal sense of just-reward, doing so just has you come off as something your really not, ignorant.</P><p>Message Edited by Code2501 on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:13 PM</span>

Rrawl

05-18-2006, 06:00 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Code2501 wrote: <P>What some people ignore in the risk vs reward argument is the word effort... </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Very well put. And what risk anyway? Gold on a repair bill?<BR>

Asheng

05-18-2006, 09:02 PM

Well, as a monk you can solo/duotrain the entire quest line up to Ascent part. It does not take long, is not hard, and there the worst camping is the the one arch guy in the room off of the hall of rites in SoS with the mirror. And at the same time, lets not forget the amount of well selling legendary/junk that you get while progressing through SoS/PoA, that more then makes up for time spent. <div></div>

Asheng

05-18-2006, 09:05 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Rrawl wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Code2501 wrote: <p>What some people ignore in the risk vs reward argument is the word effort... </p> <hr> </blockquote>Very well put. And what risk anyway? Gold on a repair bill?<hr></blockquote>Risk of failure, and wasting an entire night with nothing to show for it. Peoples time is precious. I don't know about your guild, but most our members of jobs/families/obligations, that they put on hold to raid. Quest your garunteed a reward, and most of the time scaled to be pretty easy. Raid bosses, people screw up, you waste a night.</div>

Gungo

05-18-2006, 10:16 PM

<P>I have spent 5-6 hours camping w a group a named or update w/o anythign to show for it either. I have camped quest series where the rewards are not worth recieving until you get the final reward leading to many many nights of w/o any reward. How is that any different? In a raid you are gauranteed a drop. (in theory each of thos edrops should always be an upgrade for someone) Many raids now include multiple mobs w multiple drops providing multiple rewards for multiple raid memebers. It may take you a few trys to kill a particular mob, but eventually it reaches farm status. I really don't see where raid rewards should always be greater then long quest series rewards. In particular the claymore series or ring of fate series final rewards i think should be equal to most raid rewards. because of the time and difficulty in obtaining them.</P> <P>Easiest way to think of risk vs reward. ask your self this question.</P> <P>In which case would equipping your guild be done faster?</P> <P>Doing the entire claymore series for each memeber of your guild OR raiding every night. </P> <P>I am done with every quest (not epic quests) in KoS. So i spend all nights until raid time helping people on thier claymroe quest series. Most of those nights which is about 2-3 hours a night before raids the people i help do not leave with any rewards. IT the expectation of the final rewards why people do this. But when we raid which is alot better now that there is at least 5 raids we cna do at least 3-8 people get a reward. In total raiding is more rewarding then questing. As it should be. But that in no way entails that all quest rewards should be inferior. Especially long quest series w a final reward that requires an epic kill. Which imho should be one of the best items you cna obtain for that tier. There is no reason why a quest series which requires ~30 quests and several epic mobs/zones killed should not be the best obtainable reward for that tiered. Even to the point of being a bit overpowered. In that same regard i think thier should be long quest series that a group of people can do like the claymore that the final 20-30 quests provides rewards equal to many fabled. So someone who did 24 quests killing many named. Which is exaclty where the dragonscale spauldrons are in the claymore series not have an equal reward to fabled is a bit nieve. In fact i have no problem with the claymore series requiring Harghar the deathless epic x2 with a 3 day respawn as a step in the claymore series. But the reward better be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well worth that sort of bottleneck. He is an easy mob but for many casual non raiding people he will be tuff. Imho he needs to be spawnable at least once randomly every 1-3 days. </P> <P>The point is no group quest rewards should not be better then fabeld raid items but they should be comparable almost even equal to many of them especially the final rewards in a long quest series. Sorta like the ring of fate. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:19 AM</span>

zabor

05-18-2006, 10:51 PM

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div><p>In a raid you are gauranteed a drop. (in theory each of thos edrops should always be an upgrade for someone)</p><hr></blockquote><img src="http://www.zaboron.de/dragonhidebag.jpg">enough said.

selch

05-18-2006, 10:56 PM

<DIV>WT Reduce 99%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How more ignorant you can be...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing upgrade for any mage or druid out there. And it proves the statement, it will be upgrade to someone in raid while you can use your strongboxes, they are crying to get off weight. Also proves yet another selfishness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Enough said? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P>Yeah Ryza, we learned about you enough now <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Are you by any chance power leveled? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:06 PM</span>

Gungo

05-18-2006, 11:16 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>In a raid you are gauranteed a drop. (in theory each of thos edrops should always be an upgrade for someone)</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><IMG src="http://www.zaboron.de/dragonhidebag.jpg"><BR>enough said.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Zaboran ....Learn to read.................people are quite aware itemization in KoS is skewed, but majority of raid drops are always upgrades even over long quest series rewards...........you link 1 dumb raid drop and think you somehow proved a point should i link the millions of quest rewards that are pure vendor foder....Your link does not serve to make a point in any sense..............................</P> <P><BR>Gungo wrote:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In a raid you are gauranteed a drop. (<STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>in theory</FONT> </STRONG>each of those drops should always be an upgrade for someone)</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:23 PM</span>

zabor

05-18-2006, 11:22 PM

<blockquote><hr>selch wrote:<P>Yeah Ryza, we learned about you enough now <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Are you by any chance power leveled? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>find out for yourself. It's not that hard, i promise <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

selch

05-18-2006, 11:25 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <P>Yeah Ryza, we learned about you enough now <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Are you by any chance power leveled? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>find out for yourself. It's not that hard, i promise <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sadly this still proves you have zero idea about rest of classes claiming this item is junk. I bet you looted it. If I were a mage in this raid and you loot it, I would never raid with you again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Gaige

05-18-2006, 11:27 PM

<P>Why would a mage loot that when they can get a 32 slot, 99% weight reduction bag from an easy HQ?</P> <P>Oh yeah, they wouldn't.</P>

selch

05-18-2006, 11:31 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>Why would a mage loot that when they can get a 32 slot, 99% weight reduction bag from an easy HQ?</P> <P>Oh yeah, they wouldn't.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They have 5 more slots to fill in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

zabor

05-18-2006, 11:36 PM

I dont think mages need to carry around THAT much heavy stuff <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> they are wearing cloth after all.

Gaige

05-18-2006, 11:38 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV>They have 5 more slots to fill in. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Okay so even if assembling 24 people and killing a dragon for a bag is reasonable, shouldn't that bag be better than one you can get from an easy HQ?</P> <P>Its yet another example of itemization that is broken.<BR></P>

selch

05-18-2006, 11:39 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>I dont think mages need to carry around THAT much heavy stuff <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> they are wearing cloth after all.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Is this an excuse?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would you need to carry too much stuff, while total your armor weights 2.0 a piece of your 2K carrying?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

selch

05-18-2006, 11:41 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV>They have 5 more slots to fill in. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Okay so even if assembling 24 people and killing a dragon for a bag is reasonable, shouldn't that bag be better than one you can get from an easy HQ?</P> <P>Its yet another example of itemization that is broken.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You can do HQ one time, you can do raid everytime. So if your luck is sucky, why would this be source of broken itemisation? And in the end, in raid zones, you get loot only one time?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

zabor

05-18-2006, 11:42 PM

justifying a 20 slot bag from a x4 dragon as a reasonable drop is borderline stupid.

selch

05-18-2006, 11:46 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>justifying a 20 slot bag from a x4 dragon as a reasonable drop is borderline stupid.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, you should be in EQ1 when Negafen & Vox dropping 100% Wt reduction bag.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Blu

05-18-2006, 11:49 PM

Well, since I like to spend hours doing quests rather than raiding, I think we should nerf raider items in favor of those who take time to do quests. Have the quest items be the best items.Similar argument, no?X

zabor

05-18-2006, 11:49 PM

sorry, you are on the wrong board. this is the eq2 forum, not eq1. different game.

Gaige

05-18-2006, 11:51 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlueX wrote:<BR>Well, since I like to spend hours doing quests rather than raiding, I think we should nerf raider items in favor of those who take time to do quests. Have the quest items be the best items.<BR><BR>Similar argument, no?<BR><BR>X<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure, if quests randomly reward items. Lets say you do the Claymore shoulder quest and it has a 1/25 chance of actually rewarding you the shoulders when you complete it.</P> <P>Oh and raiders take time to do quests also you know. I do all the epic/hallmark quests.<BR></P>

selch

05-18-2006, 11:53 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>sorry, you are on the wrong board. this is the eq2 forum, not eq1. different game.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>EQ1 effort > EQ2 effort </DIV> <DIV>EQ1 risk > EQ2 risk (repair cost)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would reward optimisation be different?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 PM</span>

selch

05-19-2006, 12:17 AM

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>Sure, if quests randomly reward items. Lets say you do the Claymore shoulder quest and it has a 1/25 chance of actually rewarding you the shoulders when you complete it.</P> <P>Oh and raiders take time to do quests also you know. I do all the epic/hallmark quests.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Why not random rewards if they were "repeatable" as raids are?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Gaige

05-19-2006, 12:19 AM

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not random rewards if they were "repeatable" as raids are? <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>My guild did the Gates of Ahket Aken raid 2x a week, every week of DoF. We killed Rhoen everytime. We saw *two* Gis of the Dark Disciples in a time when my guild had three brawlers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just because a raid can drop an item and your guild repeats that raid, doesn't mean you'll see the item you want - unlike quests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We've killed Black Queen tons of times and *never* saw the Skullcap of All-Seeing.<BR></DIV>

Gungo

05-19-2006, 12:29 AM

<DIV> <P>Easiest way to think of risk vs reward. ask your self this question.</P> <P>In which case would equipping your guild be done faster?</P> <P>Doing the entire claymore series for each memeber of your guild OR raiding every night. </P> <P>The point is no group quest rewards should not be better then fabeld raid items but they should be comparable almost even equal to many of them especially the final rewards in a long quest series. Sorta like the ring of fate. </P> <P>The dragon spauldrons were comparable maybe a bit much on the mitigation which is why it was nerfed, but i have no problem with that. I have a problem with the concept that quest rewards should not be equal to or in rare instaces better then raid items, because they don't involve a raid. </P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:33 PM</span>

Dandeli

05-19-2006, 01:28 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkerApprentice wrote:<BR><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial>It is just one item. Let it go. Please. Stop calling for nerfs on everything and let people play and have fun. No offense intended but it's just a single piece of gear. All the other raid loot is uber. Let this one go. <BR></FONT></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No. A legendary quest reward item should not be better than every single fabled piece for the same slot in the expansion.</P> <P>I mean jeez, those legendary quest reward shoulders have 7 less mit than most T7 fabled leather BREAST PLATES.</P> <P>The mit on them needs to be nerfed, period.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lol you make me laugh. You call nerf on them, they nerf the effect, then to all.monks you go complaining like its the end of the world....</P> <P>Silly Cage...</P>

Gaige

05-19-2006, 02:48 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dandelize wrote:<BR> <P>Lol you make me laugh. You call nerf on them, they nerf the effect, then to all.monks you go complaining like its the end of the world....</P> <P>Silly Cage...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Its Gaige for the last time. Either address me by my name or don't address me. Its quite annoying.</P> <P>Also I didn't complain about the nerf to the effect at all, I said I was glad they nerfed them and I am. If I recall correctly you brought up the nerf to the effect, not me.</P> <P>Sorry if you sensed sarcasm where there wasn't any.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:49 PM</span>

Azazel-Defia

05-19-2006, 04:47 AM

<DIV> <P><FONT size=1>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Gaige wrote:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Code2501 wrote:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>To go further, you belittled the efforts of players who compleate a lenghty quest line, which requires many named mobs that can require hours upon hours of camping (you think organising a raid is hard, try convincing 6 people to sit in one room for 5 hours just to get one of those named mobs). That Gaige is just plain reprehensible, and you are wrong for doing so.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>My point is given the fact it was legendary and a quest reward I felt it was overpowered. Granted I understand how item tradeoffs work, but excuse me for not finding any tradeoff in the pre-adjusted shoulders.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>They had +60 to stats, +health, +resist, +mit, +defense. They only thing they didn't have was power, which was indirectly applied through the str on them.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>To look at them honestly when compared to fabled shoulders dropping off raids and say they were in line... <FONT color=#ffff00>you just can't do it.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>I can. I did.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Just because you personally dont see a trade off in the item, doesnt mean there wasnt one. If designers had given the item 55 health + 55 power rather than 110 health would it have been more obviously inferior? What if they had decreased the mit and increased the resists by 500? I can agree that this item was excellent for tanking physically damaging enemies. It wasnt the best for DPSing in raids, avoiding AoEs, soloing, or grouping. In fact it was inferior at these roles. It wasnt even the very best available tanking set of shoulder pads, even though it was obviously designed for that purpose.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>I do have a problem with the mitigation on the item being lowered the way it was. It wasnt balanced by an increase in another area, and the decrease was only made to the brawler quest reward. One reward is now laughably less valuable than any other reward for that quest. That is the kind of imbalance we are supposed to monitor for and prevent.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Az</FONT></P></DIV>

Asheng

05-19-2006, 05:54 AM

<div></div><hr size="2" width="100%"> especially the final rewards in a long quest series <hr size="2" width="100%">Shoulders are not the final reward in a long quest series and azazel, im interested in what everyone has to say, but that tiny font kills my eyes at the resolution I keep. Mind making it a bit larger :p <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ashengur on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:55 PM</span>

Gaige

05-19-2006, 07:15 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Azazel-Defiant wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT size=1>It wasnt even the very best available tanking set of shoulder pads, even though it was obviously designed for that purpose.</FONT></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh really? Well please tell me what were then.<BR>

Xxooo-Coav

05-19-2006, 08:22 AM

<P>Zaboron - Get off your high horse for once.... less and less, people are caring how elite you may be... and to justify, anyone can be elite if they have the time to play as much as elite guilds require. I know I have been at both ends. Stop trying to prove you are the the best of anything. I assure you, you are not. Try to treat people with respect on these boards, because again, I assure you, you are not. </P> <P>How many times have you killed an epic x4 mob (King Zalak for instance), and received virtually nothing? How about going into Gates and not getting any masters in the first 2 courts, leading people to quit for the night? How about Lab of Lord Vyemm and find 6 drops for bards through the first 4 named? Overall, yes it sucked... but it did better someone. These bags you are talking about would greatly benefit someone. Who cares if its worthless to you. If you didnt like it, move on. This game is not revolving around you. Take a look at the current poll on the main forum page.... Yeah... a whopping 13% (out of 1840 votes as of this post) are epic x4 raids, which means roughly 86% of the game is grouping or soloing. Thats what this game should be revolving around... the main playerbase, not a few 24/7 players.</P> <P> </P> <P>All that said, things are blown out of porportion now. Seemingly, some monks have made themselves to be infamous in the eyes of the monk community, and that really sucks. I always thought this forum was to help try and keep us together, complain about things that hold monks down, not fight among ourselves stating that xxxx item should be better than yyyy item because XXXX drops it, and yyyy is only quested. </P> <P>Lets just try and enjoy ourselves and the company of the rest of the monks. We have enough people gunning for us; we dont need insider attacks as well.</P> <P> </P>

Code2501

05-19-2006, 09:24 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashengur wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rrawl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Code2501 wrote: <P>What some people ignore in the risk vs reward argument is the word effort... </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Very well put. And what risk anyway? Gold on a repair bill?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Risk of failure, and wasting an entire night with nothing to show for it. Peoples time is precious. I don't know about your guild, but most our members of jobs/families/obligations, that they put on hold to raid. Quest your garunteed a reward, and most of the time scaled to be pretty easy. Raid bosses, people screw up, you waste a night.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If this post achieves anything it just proves that raiding is simply a timesink, and really does not represent great effort. At the end of the day, raids are farmable, quests which reward items are able to be compleated once per character only, ever. There never existed a logical reason why raid loot must automatically be better, in every respect, to any gear obtained otherwise. There are just too few raiders honest enought to admit it, because they are afraid of letting the cat out of the bag and having the devs go crazy with itemisation.</P> <P>Given enough effort required, there is no reason why an in game reward should not be better in some respect than other items in the game.<BR></P> <P>And I still think a gap in the itemisation options of fabled gear should not require a nerf to non-fabled gear to fix, simply fill the gap.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Code2501 on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 PM</span>

Gaige

05-19-2006, 10:05 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xxooo-Coav wrote:<BR> <P>Take a look at the current poll on the main forum page.... Yeah... a whopping 13% (out of 1840 votes as of this post) are epic x4 raids, which means roughly 86% of the game is grouping or soloing. Thats what this game should be revolving around... the main playerbase, not a few 24/7 players.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>C'mon Xxooo you're better than that, please don't reference that worthless poll in your rant. Agree with the nerfing of the shoulders or not, that poll is absolutely worthless.</P> <P>1829 <EM>Forum goers who vote on polls</EM> responded:</P> <P>41% said they primarily solo</P> <P>17% said they primarily duo</P> <P>43% said they primarily group or raid</P> <P>Or if you want to split it up 28% said they primarily group and 15% said they primarily raid.</P> <P>For one, this poll shows nothing. It shows that about 1829 people who read the forums and actually respond to polls usually solo. However you could vote multiple times (by cancelling and renewing your subscription) or you could vote if you had cancelled and don't even play anymore as long as you have forums access.</P> <P>Secondly, the sample size is crazy small. Not even 2000 responses out of a game that has a playerbase well in excess of 250k. Laugh. Out. Loud.</P> <P>Even then if you look at the responses and actually try to give them merit you'll see 41% usually solo, 17% usually duo and 28% usually group, with 15% usually raiding.</P> <P>If you look at the content in this game its mostly solo/group stuff with a minority of raids.</P> <P>Seems right on target to me.</P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 PM</span>

Code2501

05-19-2006, 10:44 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xxooo-Coav wrote:<BR> <P>Take a look at the current poll on the main forum page.... Yeah... a whopping 13% (out of 1840 votes as of this post) are epic x4 raids, which means roughly 86% of the game is grouping or soloing. Thats what this game should be revolving around... the main playerbase, not a few 24/7 players.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>C'mon Xxooo you're better than that, please don't reference that worthless poll in your rant. Agree with the nerfing of the shoulders or not, that poll is absolutely worthless.</P> <P>1829 <EM>Forum goers who vote on polls</EM> responded:</P> <P>41% said they primarily solo</P> <P>17% said they primarily duo</P> <P>43% said they primarily group or raid</P> <P>Or if you want to split it up 28% said they primarily group and 15% said they primarily raid.</P> <P>For one, this poll shows nothing. It shows that about 1829 people who read the forums and actually respond to polls usually solo. However you could vote multiple times (by cancelling and renewing your subscription) or you could vote if you had cancelled and don't even play anymore as long as you have forums access.</P> <P>Secondly, the sample size is crazy small. Not even 2000 responses out of a game that has a playerbase well in excess of 250k. Laugh. Out. Loud.</P> <P>Even then if you look at the responses and actually try to give them merit you'll see 41% usually solo, 17% usually duo and 28% usually group, with 15% usually raiding.</P> <P>If you look at the content in this game its mostly solo/group stuff with a minority of raids.</P> <P>Seems right on target to me.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>05-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:06 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I dont get it... you make some valid points on why the poll should be looked at sceptically, then basically state the content is about in proportion with what the poll indicates, and hence validaite Xxooo's point. o.O

scalzo

05-19-2006, 10:57 AM

<P>Common now all chill out :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>How about an ice cold beer? This Phrog lubs beer. </P>

selch

05-19-2006, 02:52 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> scalzo wrote:<BR> <P>Common now all chill out :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>How about an ice cold beer? This Phrog lubs beer. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sorry man, that's why we are on those boards. To discuss things and never letting them happen again. Because it is not something to be chilled out and let a single ignorant talk "in the name of monks"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

zabor

05-19-2006, 03:23 PM

soe didnt fix those shoulder pads because someone asked for it, soe fixed them because they thought they were overpowered.

selch

05-19-2006, 03:29 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>soe didnt fix those shoulder pads because someone asked for it, soe fixed them because they thought they were overpowered.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If it was so, chain and plate would be "fixed" compared to their fabled versions. Obviously it is a "select" / "on demand" / "just because legendary/fabled comprasion without checking why or where it has been given" nerf, Stop with excuses, that's lame. Ashamed of sharing same class with your type like rest of "brawlers" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 AM</span>

Xxooo-Coav

05-19-2006, 06:34 PM

<P>Gaige,</P> <P>You do make a good point. the voting base is small, however, it still a good measurement to gage. </P> <P>Its like those polls of asking 100 people. Granted, its small, but its still a decent base to gage statistics.</P> <P>I doubt that poll will make it to 3k, which is sad, because how many people frequent these boards? I am sure it exceeds that.</P> <P>Unfortunately, this game tries to cater to the (for the sake of stats, we will use the polls) 14% of the game that raids. Truthfully, I think only 5-8% is actually (high) high end (Deathtoll, etc).... I know there are numerous guilds who farm Lab and Lyceum, and call themselves raiding guilds. Quite the difference. So really, the game tries to cater to the 5-8% of the players. I dont mean basing the entire game around this elite few. There is a ton of content for single grouping (at least I think there is). But itemization is based on feedback from the elite few. I dont know if it was feedback that changed (for those that remember) the DoF quest reward from Master 1 to Adept 1. It was the high end guilds that completed that quest first, then shortly thereafter, it was changed to adept 1 (with no change to those that received the master) for all the 'regular' players. </P> <P>When this game came out, they tried to iterate that you can still be very well equipped, and enjoy most of what the game had to offer without full time raiding. That quickly disappeared in DoF. In my opinion, its all going back to EQ1; where you can see Gaige is guilded in a high end guild, welcoming (uber) drop after drop, whereas Xxooo is unguilded, finding gear through freakishly horrible questlines and random instances. Does this make Xxooo any less of a player? In the eyes of the community, yes. Am I truthfully? I sure dont think so. <BR>A year ago, you could tell who was in what guild, but it didnt matter as much. <BR>My point is this: In EQ1, people based their grouping on what equipment you had. Well, on Torv anyway. I remember people would welcome me (druid) into their group, sometimes as the main healer purely because I was in the top guild on the server. They believed I would be more capable than that cleric from a lower tier guild. Was that the case? Not always. <BR>I believe this is starting to become the issue in EQ2. I have been in forming groups, and I 'listen' to the people talking about this tank and that tank. One time, I actually read someone say 'Get Soandso, he's in FoH, he has to be good.' ... This caught my eye, because this immediately followed my post of 'What about Thisguy? He's a great tank. Little quiet, but very capable.' They never initially said no, but never said yes. <BR>I just think that its becoming commonplace now. Does this mean that just because I am unguilded that people will think less of me and not invite me to groups? Well, thats hard to say. I have a large network of people that know me. I see these newly lvl 70 monks, and think 'where the f... did this monk come from?'; but I see it happening with others. Some only wanting to group with higher end people. People thinking they are too good to help an up and coming player through an instance. Or not wanting him because he has never been through Den of Devourer. 'Sorry, we need someone who has done this zone before' ....... </P> <P>Sorry for going off on tangents. Just my thoughts on where this all seems to be leading.</P> <P>(this coming from a player who isnt even 1/2 done with the Claymore quests..hehe)</P> <P> </P> <P>(editted for a few spelling errors)</P><p>Message Edited by Xxooo-Coav on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:35 AM</span>

zabor

05-19-2006, 07:37 PM

Why should raiding gear be better than groupable gear?Simple answer:You need the best gear for the hardest raids, but you can beat all group content in average gear.

Gungo

05-19-2006, 08:34 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaboron wrote:<BR>Why should raiding gear be better than groupable gear?<BR>Simple answer:<BR>You need the best gear for the hardest raids, but you can beat all group content in average gear.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This statement is entirely wrong. </P> <P>You can raid in pure resist gear as a dps. Read situational gear.</P> <P>You will die tanking HoF in crafted gear w adept 1 spells.</P> <P>Gear is equally important in every aspect of the game as it imporves each aspect. To say otherwise is being nieve. The bets gear makes raids easier. The best gear makes grouping easier. </P> <P>You do not need the best gear to beat the hardest raid mobs in game (read mutagenic/princes). You do need decent gear to do them, and mainly a sollid strategy. </P> <P>Hof does not need the best gear to beat it. It does need decently geared or well played character. </P> <P>It has always been my experience that xp groups can really make a player shine in how well that character perfroms and plays. Whereas raids only shows how well a guild listens to strats and follows through. There is very little skill involved in raiding. How hard is it to tell one healer. Ok your job is to just spam cure trauma. Ok the defiler that warden and templar spam heal the MT. Ok the other 2 healers in heal the offtank. Ok that zerker there is the MA. Have him agor the adds. everyone assist the Zerker until adds are dead then sit behind the mob until it dies. Yeah for skill. Please that is not skill that is simon says. Skill is seeing an enchanter mezz 2 seprate encounters, then root a third add. while the healer hits his emergecny heal, arcane cures the mt single target heals the enchanter who got hit. where the tank rescues the mob off the enchanter before he dies, switches to anothe radd and spams his taunts to ge [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off the healer. then the brigand switches to defensive taunts anothe radd off the enchanter and the group lives w/o a death. Skill is doing something you should do w/o being told what to do just becuase you are skilled enough to know what to do at the right time.</P>

Gaige

05-19-2006, 08:46 PM

<P>Sure Gungo, I suppose it'd be that easy - if everything always went as planned while raiding. It doesn't of course and people need to react and do things of their own accord also.</P> <P>Oh, and if raiding is easy and just 23 people doing what 1 person tells them to do everytime, I fail to see how heroic grouping is any different. Its 5 people doing what the tank says.</P> <P>This is an endless debate by the way. Fun though I suppose.</P> <P>Oh and Xxooo I can see your point - I just think items should scale properly. Especially quest rewards.</P>

Gungo

05-19-2006, 09:58 PM

<P>I guess my feeling is raiding is more about the skill of a few people with many other players just following what those handful of players do. Whereas a good group since it is smaller and more intimate is more dependant on individuals in the group all performing well. </P> <P>To be more exact raiding seems to be alot more successful based only on a few conditions. a good strategist (or person with inside info=p), a good raid organizer (to know spells and set up groups optimally), a good main Tank. Beyond that a few players will always shine out. Liek the offtank who is aware and grabs agro. The enchanter who is quick on adds. Fast curing or healing reactive healer. and the rest while ok players just hack and slash. Few have the initiative to do whatever is not outside thier box. How many fighters do you see ever use intercepts when the MT hits red? How many preist heal use thier death prevention spell when they should on dps who draw agro in group. How many casters root adds away from raid when they should. Its the simple things that make a raid successful or not and most times its only based on a few aware individuals. </P> <P>I raid daily and i still enjoy grouping with people outside of guild. we don't activly recruit. I tend to group with people and see how they are and play. Thats how i judge a player knows what he is doing. So many people Don't play with any sort of awarenes of their surroundings or don't utilise all thier classs assets. Liek guards who refuse to use many protection abilites cause "they suck" as they say. That imho shows an poorly played character.</P>

Gungo

05-19-2006, 10:11 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>Sure Gungo, I suppose it'd be that easy - if everything always went as planned while raiding. It doesn't of course and people need to react and do things of their own accord also.<FONT color=#ffff33> Generally it is gaige. Raiding is scripted events. Once make a strat. It is basically simon says. random adds? Nope. Occasionally the MT dies and the secondary tank picks up and starts healing while the persons assigned to rezz duty resses the MT. If anythign truly goes bad its generally a wipe and repeat. Halls of seeing was a bit cute at first w wanderers who came at random and traps. 1 wipe later lets use a brawler to scout ahead and fake off the traps. Agh near invis adds on Loooong wandering paths that hit like bricks. learn to wait and kill them before the named. named w trauma debuff assign 1 healer to spam trauma cure. Like i said simon says</FONT></P> <P>Oh, and if raiding is easy and just 23 people doing what 1 person tells them to do everytime, I fail to see how heroic grouping is any different. Its 5 people doing what the tank says. <FONT color=#ffff33>Most xp groups i rarely see anyone how to play thier class. Thats a raid only, unless of course you have some over aggroing dps, or a scout that likes to explore and bring adds.etc, but thats a rarity.</FONT></P> <P>This is an endless debate by the way. Fun though I suppose.</P> <P>Oh and Xxooo I can see your point - I just think items should scale properly. Especially quest rewards.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Asheng

05-19-2006, 11:41 PM

<hr size="2" width="100%">I guess my feeling is raiding is more about the skill of a few people with many other players just following what those handful of players do <hr size="2" width="100%"> Thats def true in wow, not so true in eq2, If one healer is slacking, it can hurt the entire raid, if your dps isn't putting out enough to kill xxx before yytime your going to loose. Eq2 98% of the people in a raid to be aware. Let me also add, <blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gaige wrote: <div></div> <p>Sure Gungo, I suppose it'd be that easy - if everything always went as planned while raiding. It doesn't of course and people need to react and do things of their own accord also.<font color="#ffff33"> Generally it is gaige. Raiding is scripted events. Once make a strat. It is basically simon says. random adds? Nope. Occasionally the MT dies and the secondary tank picks up and starts healing while the persons assigned to rezz duty resses the MT. If anythign truly goes bad its generally a wipe and repeat. Halls of seeing was a bit cute at first w wanderers who came at random and traps. 1 wipe later lets use a brawler to scout ahead and fake off the traps. Agh near invis adds on Loooong wandering paths that hit like bricks. learn to wait and kill them before the named. named w trauma debuff assign 1 healer to spam trauma cure. Like i said simon says</font></p> <p>Oh, and if raiding is easy and just 23 people doing what 1 person tells them to do everytime, I fail to see how heroic grouping is any different. Its 5 people doing what the tank says. <font color="#ffff33">Most xp groups i rarely see anyone how to play thier class. Thats a raid only, unless of course you have some over aggroing dps, or a scout that likes to explore and bring adds.etc, but thats a rarity.</font></p> <p>This is an endless debate by the way. Fun though I suppose.</p> <p>Oh and Xxooo I can see your point - I just think items should scale properly. Especially quest rewards.</p> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote> There is not a single 1 group instance, that is a challenge at all. HOF was at the very beginning, now it's pathetically easy like the rest. And you are all missing the big picture, the SHOULDERS were not a final quest reward for a long quest, they were one of many powerful, and good quest rewards in a quest line, that ENDS in a weapon worth the effort for the entire line. As a part of the line, the shoulders should not have equaled a fabled reward. When you take all the rewards together, bracelet, chestpiece, legs, boots, earring, belt, katar, shoulders, ranged weapon, It's still a MORE then generous quest line, with very very good items. All the change did was bring the shoulders more in line with the massive amount of equipment gained in the quest line, and make fabled shoulders more worth having. <div></div>

Gungo

05-20-2006, 12:51 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashengur wrote:<BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> I guess my feeling is raiding is more about the skill of a few people with many other players just following what those handful of players do<BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <BR>Thats def true in wow, not so true in eq2, If one healer is slacking, it can hurt the entire raid, if your dps isn't putting out enough to kill xxx before yytime your going to loose. Eq2 98% of the people in a raid to be aware.<FONT color=#ffff33> Lets just say i disagree. An easily proven fact since most raids don't even require 24 people to do. Many raids in T7 cna be done w 3 or less groups. heck harla dar which as easy as it is jsut a dps timed fest can be done w 3 very well geared groups. So given that fact at the very least 6 people can be afk bots in raids w/o a noticabel difference. </FONT><BR><BR>Let me also add, <BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>Sure Gungo, I suppose it'd be that easy - if everything always went as planned while raiding. It doesn't of course and people need to react and do things of their own accord also.<FONT color=#ffff33> Generally it is gaige. Raiding is scripted events. Once make a strat. It is basically simon says. random adds? Nope. Occasionally the MT dies and the secondary tank picks up and starts healing while the persons assigned to rezz duty resses the MT. If anythign truly goes bad its generally a wipe and repeat. Halls of seeing was a bit cute at first w wanderers who came at random and traps. 1 wipe later lets use a brawler to scout ahead and fake off the traps. Agh near invis adds on Loooong wandering paths that hit like bricks. learn to wait and kill them before the named. named w trauma debuff assign 1 healer to spam trauma cure. Like i said simon says</FONT></P> <P>Oh, and if raiding is easy and just 23 people doing what 1 person tells them to do everytime, I fail to see how heroic grouping is any different. Its 5 people doing what the tank says. <FONT color=#ffff33>Most xp groups i rarely see anyone how to play thier class. Thats a raid only, unless of course you have some over aggroing dps, or a scout that likes to explore and bring adds.etc, but thats a rarity.</FONT></P> <P>This is an endless debate by the way. Fun though I suppose.</P> <P>Oh and Xxooo I can see your point - I just think items should scale properly. Especially quest rewards.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There is not a single 1 group instance, that is a challenge at all. HOF was at the very beginning, now it's pathetically easy like the rest. <FONT color=#ffff33>And why is HoF so easy now is it because of the fabled/legendary gear master spells and 50 aa's we now all have. The zone hasn't had a massive revamp since it came out to make it trivial. Gear does make a huge differece in xp groups as well as raids. Many people say the same thing even about raids and how trvial lyceum, labs. etc heck b the time the new expansion comes out in 6 months i will bet you many people will start to say how trivial halls and probably DT have gotten.</FONT><BR><BR>And you are all missing the big picture, the SHOULDERS were not a final quest reward for a long quest, they were one of many powerful, and good quest rewards in a quest line, that ENDS in a weapon worth the effort for the entire line. As a part of the line, the shoulders should not have equaled a fabled reward. When you take all the rewards together, bracelet, chestpiece, legs, boots, earring, belt, katar, shoulders, ranged weapon, It's still a MORE then generous quest line, with very very good items. All the change did was bring the shoulders more in line with the massive amount of equipment gained in the quest line, and make fabled shoulders more worth having. <FONT color=#ffff33>You act like you dont get 6-8 fabled on a raid zone clearing every night. The shoulders were the 24th step in the claymore series. If you want to compare all the items. You should compare them in total to all the tiems you can recieve in 1 labs clearing. that only seems fair for the whole risk vs reward argument. Btw i was pro nerfing the shoudlers. I just don't agree with the mentality here that all quest rewards should be less then most fabled. I certainly think there should be many items recievable by quests that are comparable to raid items and item sin the claymore series does a fine job at that. Also the ring of fate was a good job at that in T6 although it coudl of used a few more items along the way like the Claymore series.</FONT><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Xxooo-Coav

05-20-2006, 02:31 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashengur wrote:<BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <BR>And you are all missing the big picture, the SHOULDERS were not a final quest reward for a long quest, they were one of many powerful, and good quest rewards in a quest line, that ENDS in a weapon worth the effort for the entire line. As a part of the line, the shoulders should not have equaled a fabled reward. When you take all the rewards together, bracelet, chestpiece, legs, boots, earring, belt, katar, shoulders, ranged weapon, It's still a MORE then generous quest line, with very very good items. All the change did was bring the shoulders more in line with the massive amount of equipment gained in the quest line, and make fabled shoulders more worth having. <BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There are different 'tiers' of Fabled....<BR>

Azazel-Defia

05-20-2006, 02:40 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Azazel-Defiant wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT size=1>It wasnt even the very best available tanking set of shoulder pads, even though it was obviously designed for that purpose.</FONT></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh really? Well please tell me what were then.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face=Century size=2>As we have been discussing, everything is a trade-off. I would say that Gnorbl's would be the best overall physical damage tank shoulders, the extra 67 physical mitigation being a trade-off for the extra hp and avoidance. Mitigation is king of the tanking scene in t7, and with brawler mits reaching 4k+ish and hp reaching 10k+ish, the tradeoff seems decent. Add in extra resists from wis, and some straight power increase since str is capped so easily and really doesnt supply power. Add in +crush for hitting higher levels and keeping agro. A better physically defensive item that still has some decent general useage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>The Crescent Moon would be better general shoulders, especially effective against slashing damage enemies, still allowing you to balance other pieces with +vs crush and +vs pierce to give an overall mit advantage. Add to the fact that all of these items would be highly useful in non-tanking situations, and their overall value increases.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>I was not pro-nerf on this item. I realize that it isnt the final quest in the series, but by the time you reach this point in the series, each quest can be as long as the HQs, and the rewards are designed to reflect the length of progression and effort to reach that stage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>My biggest issue actually isnt that the shoulders were "adjusted". I have an issue with the fact that they were decreased in "value" compared to other lvl 68 legendary items, and that the change was unfairly targetted at one quest reward when every quest reward was balanced almost identically.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>I could give an example of a good "adjustment" if you wish.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>Adjusted Dragonscale Shoulders (example and fictional)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>30str 30sta</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>55hlth 55 pow</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>600 vs ht 500 vs cold</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>+7 def</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>324 mit</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>effect Str of Dragon</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>As you can see, the overall value was maintained. The mit decrease was balanced by a resist increase of an appropriate percentage. The hlth and pow was maintained overall. This item now would be considered good, but its mit is now on level with similar pieces and inferior to many that include additional resist.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>Another issue I have in this debate is that people are spending time complaining about designers actually THINKING about the target group and creating an item specifically for them. It is something brawlers have wanted for ages, always in the past there have been complaints about the actual stats and balancing of our items, now they seem to be making an effort to answer those concerns and the brawler community still isnt happy. I really wonder how the mixed signals are affecting our future in-development items.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>Az</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>05-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:56 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>05-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:21 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:23 AM</span>

Azazel-Defia

05-20-2006, 02:40 AM

<DIV>Sorry about the changing fonts. I have been having some strange issues with the posts where I am warned that I have included Urls that are unsupported. I dont know why this happens since I dont use anything other than the chat board commands. I usually have to save my posts into notepad and then repaste them so it will accept them. It sometimes effects the fonts.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 PM</span>

Asheng

05-21-2006, 07:11 AM

<div></div>Sorry, HOF was surely made easier with fabled, but it was perfectly doable before. With just Sanctum legendary. As far as this quest series, and steps taking forever to do, I can't aggree with that especially not with fellow brawlers. My main group did all the sanctum stuff in one night, and the palace stuff in the next. The longest stuff was just getting mobs to spawn. Its not hard as much as it is a pain. Heck most of it is seasier to solo, or duo with a healer, training through everywhere. Quest rewards that require raids should be equal to raid drop fabled. The loot reflects the accomplishment of 24 people working together to beat a mob. Saying xxx loot drops from labs isn't really accurate. Some of the stuff in there rots, it's complete junk. Quest rewards are garunteed drops for everyone accomplishing, for their class. Raid drops are no where near that. You could see the same paladin loot drop 5 raids in a row. Rarely will one in 24 people get multiple pieces of quality fabled in a raid. So they may go back once a week for 5 weeks, and still not see something drop they can use. Brawlers seem to be even more affected by this. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ashengur on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 PM</span>

selch

05-21-2006, 04:11 PM

<DIV>How come your main group can do all quests in one night in Sanctum? Just curious... One step took my group 4 hours to spawn the named to be able to get "next step" of the quest. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not "take all quests" do all at same time...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Otherwise, I just think your group did one quest but it came like all quests to you, since once people get in, they stay till they level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:12 PM</span>

Gungo

05-21-2006, 08:27 PM

<P>He is over-exhaggerating. I was very lucky on my spawns for the claymore series taking only at most 3 respawns on most named. I trained EVERYWHERE for the claymore updates. And starting in the morning on most days it took me at least 3 sollid days in sanctum. Which is completely resonable since most of the named are on ~30min respawn timers. The ghosts in the top of sanctum in the little book nooks was my biggest pain it litterly took 6 hours camping to get all 4? of them to pop. The snake dude in the 3rd floor took about 6 respawns. PoA could of been done in 2-3 sollid days depending on how screwed u get w spawns. It is not unreasonabel to hear people in guild camping a named for the second day straight. now mind you when i say sollid days i mean 8-12 hours playing. People seem to forget to even get the SoS final reward (chest peice) you need the dragon language which in and of itself is a long quest series starting from a T5 epic x2. which a few people in my guild had to do.</P> <P>Ok so now after 24+ quests you get these game breaking super shoulders. It takes a hard core player from 4-6 striaght days to get. This is as a brawler mind you who is prolly the only class who can do this quest so quickly. Fake death FTW. So now you move on to the next step which requires difficult to harvest spawns in an epic x2 zoen w 1 bajillion hp's. So if yorur lucky enough to have 11 friends to help or jump with your guild clearing you get thes done. OR you cna do what i did and do the nakid fake death dance in there. Then you get to bonemire kill a bunch of easy to pop named i 2 boxed most of them. And sit on harragars (another 2x epic) camp eveyr 3-5 days in the hopes you catch him when he pops. Being he is probabably the most contested mob in game (not counting the monoliths which die in 2 min of spawning). </P> <P>Being that this is a long quest series that require killing epic x2 along the way AND even an epic contested. there is no reason why these rewards should nto be better then raid loot.</P>