AA Question

[Zink]

<div>I looked around some on outher brawlers and how they have spent theirs and I havent seenanyone going for agilty so far.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Are I the only one who think that it is a way to go ?</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Askan</div><div>Valhall - Splitpaw</div><div> </div><div><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=74133303" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=74133303</a></div>

[zabor]

I did go AGI.Altruism is really great. Its the only AA choice we get that really makes a difference.

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:Altruism is really great. Its the only AA choice we get that really makes a difference.<hr></blockquote><p>Was really great.  Was.  Past tense.  When it used to have hate transfer associated with it, it was awesome.  Unfortunately they ruined it.</p><p>If you tank/solo at all I find it hard to bypass the sta/int lines.  They're just hand over first better than any of the other choices.</p><p>If you dps mainly though, str/int is probably the way to go.</p>

[Cyngii]

<div>Yeah most people i knew that went AGI respeced their APs and either dumped it into STR and/or INT lines.  I just hit 70 so the APs should start coming a little faster but currently have 4-4-8 in the INT line and am trying to figure out where to go next.  I might go for the parry boost in the INT line, but am thinking of starting the STR or STA line instead.  The STR line really is good DPS (especially mixed with INT), but the drawbacks from being unarmed are pretty rough.  The STA line seems kinda cool since you get the permanent proc and the deflection boost.  How noticeable is the STA debuff from the STA line?  Does the amount it debuffs increase per level or only the damage of the attack?  I'm thinking that could be a great utility for pulling and getting agro off the pull...</div>

[Ragin_Goblin]

<div></div><p>Yes the debuff and damage increases with each rank you take Cyngii. I currently have 4 ranks in it and the STA debuff is over 100 (not online so cant give you exact numbers).</p><p> </p><p>Gardawg</p>

[Icewolf99]

I don't see the value in the STA line for tanking/soloing, the Wis line would be better I would think with all the AOE attacks to help hold agro on group mobs.  I have STA debuffs on my necro, and dont really see them have much effect on a fight.  All the ranged steps in the STA are basicly wasted points unless you PvP or duel alot.  I went WIS line first on my monk and really see it helping me a lot soloing groups of mobs and helping me hold agro the few times i'm MT.I'm still debating the STR line, it would rock when in a pure DPS mode, but would put you at a disadvantage if you got agro or tried to solo.  Most groups when I'm in DPS mode, I also peal mobs off the casters/healers if one gets away from the MT,  the loss of stats would really hurt in that situation. Still i'd like to see if the AAs with bare fists out DPS a weapon(s) with really good stats and a strong proc.  I'll hold off until I see some parses showing the line really makes up for no weapons.The INT line looks good but you'd have to go with STR also to get the best use out of it.for the AGI line the only thing i really liked was the last one and you guys say it isnt worth it now??<div></div>

[Cyngii]

<div></div>The STA lines helps a lot with tanking because of the deflection bonus...

[Code2501]

<div></div><p>Ive gone Sta(4,4,4,4 atm) and was intending to go Int and max deflection and parry but given the blow to avoidance we take when facing epics and the futility of avoidance against their ability to ignore avoidance alltogether with AE's I was considering going the Wis line for the HP% boost(as there is no mitigation choice).</p><p>2 questions on Wis line...</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p>1)Does anyone know if the +0.5% health is a constant increase per rank? i.e. rank 2 = +1% rank 3 = +1.5%...etc to a max of 4%?</p><p>2)Also, is the percentage calculaton done on base HP or buffed HP?</p></blockquote><p>If I go sta 8,4,4,8 and wis 8,4,4,8 then I would get 240hp from the sta +168 allmagicresist from wis on top of the ~12deflection and +4%hp(200-300hp depending on base or buffed calculation).</p><p> </p><p>Thoughts, comments?</p>

[Cyngii]

<div></div><div></div>Not sure how the WIS HP scales, but all the other spells in the game that effect "max hp" take your buffs into account.  Take the Mystic "bolster" spell which boosts max hp by 20%... I was in a group with 10k hp almost on the nose (like 9998hp).  When the Mystic cast bolster on me i was right around 12000hp not 11000hp (if based off my base hp). <p>Message Edited by Cyngii on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:37 PM</span></p>

[Code2501]

<div></div>Thanks Cyngii, that makes even 4% sound much more enticing. It would be interesting to know how it scales though, as the deflection in the Sta line went 1.5, 1.5, 1.6, 1.6, iirc.

[Gaige]

<div></div>I'm going 8/5/4/8sta, 4/4/8/8int.

[pootski]

I went sta for first try and just got mantis leap.  What the hell is it good for???  Where would a monk find it usefull?  However, it DOES make the other people in the group go [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the first time you use it.<div></div>

[Cyngii]

<div></div>I'm personally not getting any of the final achievements from any column... all just seem like a waste of 8 AP.  I'm planning on a slight variation on what Gaige is doing i think... 4-4-8-8 INT and 4-5-8-8 STA.  That's my plan as it stands now.  The HP from the WIS would be nice, but it seems to far down a line i wouldn't get much use out of.

[GastonPhoebus]

<div></div>Ah! Been waiting for someone who has taken Stamina all the way to comment on Mantis Leap... So, pretty fun effect then? I have been working the STA line so far and it has really helped my solo efforts (90% of the time I am solo). INT next for the parry. I was going to get the Leap just for the effect though..... Is it truly a waste? Are there no situations where it will be a useful tool in PvE?

[diamondma]

for tanking stick with gaige's templatefor dps 4/4/8str 4/4/8sta 4/4/8int.<div></div>

[NerissaRavenHeart]

<div></div><p>Gaige,</p><p>Why are you going 5 in Mantis Star for, any particular reason your going 5 rather than 4?</p><p> </p><p>Masuimi</p>

[diamondma]

the sta debuff ;p<div></div>

[NerissaRavenHeart]

<div><blockquote><hr>diamondmage wrote:for tanking stick with gaige's templatefor dps 4/4/8str 4/4/8sta 4/4/8int.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I see having 8 in Relentless Punches (3rd line in Str) good if you are using no weapons, but I still don't see it being of any use if your a weapon wielder. Just an opinion though. =P Sagarakun...</div><div> </div><div>Masuimi</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[NerissaRavenHeart]

<div>I see now. wish I had the full range of each category and pictures to make a chart for the increases in the spell percentages/damages/etc.... But yeah thanks Sagarakun I see it now. The Decreases STA of target by 95 and that is only Rank 1. So I can imagine what rank 5 is.</div><div> </div><div>Masuimi</div>

[pootski]

Mantis leap is a 35 range art that ports you immediately to a mob, and next attack is a crit.  But that is it.  Not of any use for pulling in a group.  Range is too limited to cross places like the harvest island in bonemire.  So I figured, ok, maybe a way to shorcut going around to climb up or down, but nope.  Only works on mobs same level as you.  At ZI in SoS, you cant leap up to the first set of mobs standing on stairs.Did a respect to what gaige is doing, only I am going to put everything into the STA 8-8-8-8.  I really see no use of any of the other lines.  I have no interest in going weaponless.<div></div>

[NerissaRavenHeart]

<div></div><p>I agree with you on the option of not going weaponless. I can't see myself going barehanded unless the benefits of doing so would outweigh the benefits and stats that wield weapons offer. Until then, I shall be wielding something on my character. As far as my devised and planned AA line of action, I have no idea yet to be honest. I tank and solo a lot, so I do see great reason to follow Gaige's plan, and I can see the benefit of doing so. You just have to sit down and look at his decided path and look at the chart and see what each one is going to be giving you. I like his so far. Would be nice to be able to have enough points to get some advantage out of the Str line but there are plenty of items in game that will give a great deal of str so there isn't any worries in the str department at least for me.</p><p> </p><p>Masuimi</p>

[DarkerApprenti]

<div><span>Yes it scales.  0.5% incrementsrank 2 1.0rank 3 1.5rank 4 2.0<blockquote><hr>Code2501 wrote:<div></div><p>Ive gone Sta(4,4,4,4 atm) and was intending to go Int and max deflection and parry but given the blow to avoidance we take when facing epics and the futility of avoidance against their ability to ignore avoidance alltogether with AE's I was considering going the Wis line for the HP% boost(as there is no mitigation choice).</p><p>2 questions on Wis line...</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p>1)<font color="#ffff00">Does anyone know if the +0.5% health is a constant increase per rank? i.e. rank 2 = +1% rank 3 = +1.5%...etc to a max of 4%?</font></p><p>2)Also, is the percentage calculaton done on base HP or buffed HP?</p></blockquote><p>If I go sta 8,4,4,8 and wis 8,4,4,8 then I would get 240hp from the sta +168 allmagicresist from wis on top of the ~12deflection and +4%hp(200-300hp depending on base or buffed calculation).</p><p> </p><p>Thoughts, comments?</p><hr></blockquote></span></div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><p>When I was in beta and had the chance to mess around with a lot of different templates I had mantis leap (I think Led did too) and its was pretty silly.  I was thinking it would be like the bruiser teleportation thing but it just flings you over there and that is it.  Its not very useful.</p><p>At one time I really loved Altruism but they ruined it imho when they removed the hate transfer from it.</p><p>Currently there just isn't any fifth level skill that I personally feel is worth the 8pt investment.  I think generally the best skills are available on the 4th tiers or are just stats.</p><p>I mainly offtank/tank so I wanted to choose achievements that I felt bolstered that the best.  Although the %HP would be nice, the entire line prior to that has very little use to me since I don't do a lot of heroic grouping where the AEing would be useful.</p><p>So I decided I wanted to max out sta, parry, deflection, and crit chance.  As for putting five points into mantis star vs mantis bolt, it is because of the sta debuff.  It debuffs for more each point you invest and although its only a very small % of a raid mobs health, it helps - especially if you keep it constantly applied.</p><p>The *only* other build I think is worthwhile is Saga's, if you're going to be mainly DPS.  The stat hit from going weaponless isn't as bad as people think, especially fully buffed and the double attack is just huge.</p><p>I'm still irritated they removed our phys mit option.  Man it was uber the first weak of beta, it added like 1300 mit O_O.</p><p>Ah well.</p>

[Sslarrga]

<div></div><div></div><div>Well, I've had my 50 AA's for a while now and currently running...</div><div> </div><div>4-4-8 in Str, Sta, and Int.</div><div> </div><div>I "may" respec when I get either 2x57+ damage rating DWs or a good 104+ damage rating 2-hander.  Even then I'm doubting that the DPS will be as good as my current build.</div><div> </div><div>Currently solo parsing (which is NOT the main strength of the str line unless you are a bruiser) shows a slight auto-attack dps advantage to the str line.  Roughly 350-375ish dps on average with T6 fabled DW vs 450-475ish on average with my current setup.  I still use a level 50 heroic as my baseline to test against.  And just use the same mob over and over about 100 times with each setup.  It's extremely boring.  I recommend watching TV or browsing the web while doing this if you want to do it.  BTW - I use a grey con 50 heroic as my control.  Thus the hps/mitigation etc are the same for all weapon combos that I try.  The numbers will vary depending on what you are fighting the the ratio should stay roughly the same.</div><div> </div><div>Now you do have to take into account that 16 points in Str isn't doing squat for the DW so if that 16 were put into Wis for example at 4-4-8.  That would raise the DPS of the DW slightly.  However procs aren't the strength of the DW line thus the increase wouldn't be as great as you'd think.</div><div> </div><div>For example compare Str + Wis proc to DW + Wis proc.</div><div> </div><div>4-4-8 Str + 4-4-8 Wis would give a [0.08 (proc chance) * 20 (normalized 3.0 delay for chances to proc in 1 minute) * X (damage from proc) * 1.96 (number of attacks that can proc)]/60 (seconds in a minute).  Or in other words a 0.052*X DPS increase per enemy from Crane Sweep.</div><div> </div><div>DW + 4-4-8 Wis would give a [0.08 (proc chance) * 20 (normalized 3.0 delay for chances to proc in 1 minute) * X (damage from proc) * 1 (number of attacks that can proc)]/60 (seconds in a minute).  Or in other wordes a 0.027*X increase in DPS per enemy from Crane Sweep.</div><div> </div><div>All that is just a long way to say that you get 1.96 times the DPS increase from any applied proc (Mantis Bolt, Crane Sweep, Fire Seed, Flametongue, Dire Invective, etc..).</div><div> </div><div>BTW - an easier forumla to use to calculate theoretical DPS increase from a proc would be [(proc chance)*(damage)]/3 for conventional weapons and [(proc chance)*(damage)*(1.96)]/3 for Relentless punches.  Don't use this forumla for DoT procs however, as the proc overwriting itself screws things up.  Also this DPS increase is assuming you are unhasted.  If you want haste then multiply by 1+haste value.  So if you had 50% haste then multiply the value by 1.5.</div><div> </div><div>So a weapon that procs 400 damage with a 5% chance to proc would contribute about 6.67 DPS assuming no mitigation or weakness to the proc and you never miss.  With 100% haste just double that value.</div><div> </div><div>The more applied procs you have, the greater the DPS gap between Relentless Punches and DW/2H.</div><div> </div><div>So in any given fight currently.  Mantis bolt procs on average about once every 6.4 seconds vs about once every 12.5 seconds for DW weapons.</div><div> </div><div>For Crane Sweep it would proc approximately once every once every 19.23 seconds for Relentless Punches vs 37.5 seconds for DW/2H on average.</div><div> </div><div>All that is just different ways to look at the different between 1.96 chances to proc and 1 chance to proc.  Granted all attacks have a chance to proc so due to randomness you may get streaks where you proc alot and streaks where you get almost no procs.</div><div> </div><div>However, a few things to keep in mind.</div><div> </div><div>1.  Warriors gain MUCH more benefit from Double Attack than we do.  As they can continue to use GOOD Damage Rating weapons and benefit from extra chances to proc from weapons.  This is the MAIN reason why Guardians can get DPS on par with Monks.  And I have a sneaking suspicion that with top end T7 fabled 1H a Guardian will have the potential to out DPS a Monk with top end T7 fabled DW/2H.</div><div> </div><div>2.  For all the DPS benefits you gain from Double Attack you lose the associated benefits of HPs, Power, Stats, Resists, and Avoidance you can get from weapons.  It's a rather large tradeoff that doesn't works for everyone.</div><div> </div><div>3.  Double Attack also works for ranged attacks.</div><div> </div><div>Regards,</div><div>Croaker</div><div> </div><div>PS - Mantis Bolt is currently bugged.  If you attack from range, when Mantis Bolt procs it will turn on melee auto-attack and turn off ranged auto-attack.  I'd suggest everyone /bug this until it gets fixed.</div><p>Message Edited by Sslarrga on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:28 PM</span></p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sslarrga wrote:<div></div><div></div><div> </div><div>PS - Mantis Bolt is currently bugged.  If you attack from range, when Mantis Bolt procs it will turn on melee auto-attack and turn off ranged auto-attack.  I'd suggest everyone /bug this until it gets fixed.<hr></div></blockquote>Yeah, hopefully that gets changed soon.

[RyanTSi]

<div></div><div>i like gaiges build but imo much better to max out Mantis Star instead of delfecting pincer.......before the last update you could actulaly see how well mantis star worked.....at rank 8 it would kill about 15-20% of mobs hp and on raid mobs thats pretty huge. as it is now you cant actualy see the hp jump, but it still works the same. the loss form the 3 points of deflection is only .6% avoid imo the 3 points into mantis star is well worth the sacrifice if you like to raid.</div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>RyanTSi wrote:<div></div><div>i like gaiges build but imo much better to max out Mantis Star instead of delfecting pincer.......before the last update you could actulaly see how well mantis star worked.....at rank 8 it would kill about 15-20% of mobs hp and on raid mobs thats pretty huge. as it is now you cant actualy see the hp jump, but it still works the same. the loss form the 3 points of deflection is only .6% avoid imo the 3 points into mantis star is well worth the sacrifice if you like to raid.</div><hr></blockquote>Good point Lonno.

[Cyngii]

<div></div>What is the reuse on Mantis Star?  Is it short enough that it can be used on every pull?  If so, that would be huge.

[selch]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cyngii wrote:<div></div>What is the reuse on Mantis Star?  Is it short enough that it can be used on every pull?  If so, that would be huge.<hr></blockquote>That's what I'm wondering and what is increased per Rank of it</div><div> </div>

[RyanTSi]

<div>im not sure what it is per rank...but at level 70 rank 8 its 165 stamina debuff.</div><div> </div><div>recast on it is 30 seconds and the duration is 1 min 12 sec so its not hard to keep it on the mob.</div>

[selch]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>RyanTSi wrote:<div>im not sure what it is per rank...but at level 70 rank 8 its 165 stamina debuff.</div><div> </div><div>recast on it is 30 seconds and the duration is 1 min 12 sec so its not hard to keep it on the mob.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks for the info. But yet another question, recast starts after duration or recast timer starts as soon as it is casted?</p><p> </p>

[diamondma]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>NerissaRavenHeart wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>diamondmage wrote:for tanking stick with gaige's templatefor dps 4/4/8str 4/4/8sta 4/4/8int.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I see having 8 in Relentless Punches (3rd line in Str) good if you are using no weapons, but I still don't see it being of any use if your a weapon wielder. Just an opinion though. =P Sagarakun...</div><div> </div><div>Masuimi</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>relentless is pointless if ur using weapons, but the whole build is centered around using barefist with relentless punches maxed to proc and crit.  its a pure dps build which is not about play style or looks.  its about putting out as much dps as possible.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by diamondmage on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:24 PM</span></p>

[RyanTSi]

<div></div>recast starts as soon as you hit it so every 30 seconds you cna refresh the debuff

[selch]

<div><blockquote><hr>RyanTSi wrote:<div></div>recast starts as soon as you hit it so every 30 seconds you cna refresh the debuff<hr></blockquote>Very cool <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thank you. Definitely might change my STA line choices <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div>

[pootski]

It does have a minimum range, so you have to back off to cast it again.<div></div>

[selch]

<div><blockquote><hr>pootski wrote:It does have a minimum range, so you have to back off to cast it again.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, 2 meters almost nothing comparing our auto-attack is 5meters, isnt it?</div><div> </div><div>Considering it has .5 seconds cast time, would not be a problem I think.</div>

[pootski]

I find myself having to back off enough that autoattack gives out of range messges.Also, if you always have 2 monks on a raid, what would a good alternate build be for the second monk.  I kinda doubt the STA debuffs stack.<div></div>