Nerfed again ?

[Sinsemil]

<DIV>My Ac drop from 3069 to 2472 whats going on?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes all my gear is the same i had 3069 ac at 5am and then at 9am after patch i log on to 2472ac</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All i have to say is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], why couldnt they just leave us the way we had been when we use to be good tanks and decent DPS.</DIV>

[Igo]

I droped from 3001 to 2471 at lvl 27 as well.I talked to a few players in game tonight and a bunch of them experianced the same type of drop.I would be willing to bet it is either an under the table change in the way our AC is displayed (lame to not tell us).Or it is an error in way it is displayed (my bet is on this one). I doubt it was an actual nerf, only in eq1 did they make nerfs like that and hide them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyway, here is to hoping it's just a display error.

[Caesium]

my ac is about 5k as it was yersterday

[Melr]

Check your equipment for a change from LA to VLA.  The item I had for my head slot was LA prior to patch, after it was VLA.  I found the change due to the sudden plung in ac.  Dunno if thats why it happened, but its an idea.

[Rowain deWo]

<DIV>Moorgard explains the change here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=26660#M26660" target=_blank>Click me</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and no it is not a nerf.</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Rowain deWolf wrote: <DIV>Moorgard explains the change here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=26660#M26660" target=_blank>Click me</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and no it is not a nerf.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Yeah it is, but it is a nerf for the mobs as well.. so no effective change... basically armor value is partially based on mobs at that level's offense.. they lowered mobs offense, which lowered the armor class.. so far from his description that means that their attempt to lower offense on mobs lowered our defense to match (assuming even con) so no net change was done.. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Either way.. its a nerf to the mobs (and maybe if their description is right) a nerf to us..Only testing will tell us if its the second nerf too..

[FamilyManFir]

No, it's no nerf to us (or anybody; everyone's AC and Resists changed). They <b>didn't do anything</b> to our armor or skills.Remember that AC is, currently, a "calculated estimate" kind of number. They take the raw mitigation, the avoidance skills, Agi's effects and who-knows-what-else (apparently the average-hit-of-an-average-mob is in there too) and plug them into some arcane formula to come up with an "AC" number for your character. It's not intended to be used for anything except comparison with <i>another</i> character to see who (supposedly) will take more or less damage-over-time in combat.They didn't make any change to your armor; it mitigates exactly what it mitigated before. However, since the average-hit-of-an-average-mob changed, the AC number, which included it in its formula, changed too.I <i>am</i> looking forward to the new numbers that we should see in Live Update #6, though.

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>FamilyManFirst wrote:No, it's no nerf to us (or anybody; everyone's AC and Resists changed). They <b>didn't do anything</b> to our armor or skills.Remember that AC is, currently, a "calculated estimate" kind of number. They take the raw mitigation, the avoidance skills, Agi's effects and who-knows-what-else (apparently the average-hit-of-an-average-mob is in there too) and plug them into some arcane formula to come up with an "AC" number for your character. It's not intended to be used for anything except comparison with <i>another</i> character to see who (supposedly) will take more or less damage-over-time in combat.They didn't make any change to your armor; it mitigates exactly what it mitigated before. However, since the average-hit-of-an-average-mob changed, the AC number, which included it in its formula, changed too.I <i>am</i> looking forward to the new numbers that we should see in Live Update #6, though.<hr></blockquote>It is a nerf at the very least (as I said) to the mobs.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but I am suspecting that with the information that has come out with Moorgards comments that white con armor of (for example) 100 ac isnt as good as orange con armor of 100 ac... just because of the calculation vs mobs of the armors level.. Based on moorgards comment "What you might not realize is that AC is also calculated, in part, based on the average damage done by an NPC of that level." when they reduced the damage DONE by creatures in the 15-31 range they DID reduce the AC of armor that is in that range at all.Note, Moorgard did NOT say that the DISPLAY is calculated.. it was clearly that "AC is also calculated"... but then he goes on and talks about the "visible display" changing.. which means he has said both that its actual AC and visual AC.. contradictory statements.Only testing will tell for sure.. but based on my sessions last night if there was any real deduction in our capacity it was not a major amount (I had my *** handed to me by a green group mob.. but it was a named so I dunno, but then I was in group later in the night and we were able to handle stuff normally)...At the very least, its another indicator that they think we should stick to stuff at our level and not attack higher con creatures... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I think the new numbers display will indeed help us know whats up.. but hurt us in that now all those people inviting LFGs wont be sure how to handle avoidance vs mitigation in their decisions...

[Wiou]

I saw that too. Very interesting. Will certainly clear a lot of things up

[SageMarrow]

<P>Only testing will tell for sure.. but based on my sessions last night if there was any real deduction in our capacity it was not a major amount (<FONT color=#6666ff>I had my *** handed to me by a green group mob..</FONT> but it was a named so I dunno, but then I was in group later in the night and we were able to handle stuff normally)...<BR><BR>At the very least, its another indicator that they think we should stick to stuff at our level and not attack higher con creatures... <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> and I think the new numbers display will indeed help us know whats up..<FONT color=#6633ff> but hurt us in that now all those people inviting LFGs wont be sure how to handle avoidance vs mitigation in their decisions..</FONT></P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</P> <P>lol  - yes they will.. its not that complicated.</P> <P>avoidance = sporadic, risky, ravingly successful or miserable failure. no middle ground for the most part in long battles.</P> <P>mitigation = consistent, stable, average success stream, not as risky, THE middle ground.</P> <P> </P> <P>now i know you HATE seeing this. </P> <P>but give that equation to the group healer...</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:<div></div> <p>Only testing will tell for sure.. but based on my sessions last night if there was any real deduction in our capacity it was not a major amount (<font color="#6666ff">I had my *** handed to me by a green group mob..</font> but it was a named so I dunno, but then I was in group later in the night and we were able to handle stuff normally)...At the very least, its another indicator that they think we should stick to stuff at our level and not attack higher con creatures... <img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"> and I think the new numbers display will indeed help us know whats up..<font color="#6633ff"> but hurt us in that now all those people inviting LFGs wont be sure how to handle avoidance vs mitigation in their decisions..</font></p> <p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</p> <p>lol  - yes they will.. its not that complicated.</p> <p>avoidance = sporadic, risky, ravingly successful or miserable failure. no middle ground for the most part in long battles.</p> <p>mitigation = consistent, stable, average success stream, not as risky, THE middle ground.</p> <p>  now i know you HATE seeing this. </p> <p>but give that equation to the group healer...</p> <hr></blockquote>To address your misconceptions..... I was not playing my monk, I was playing my Inquisitor.. and walked up on the named halfling in the sewers... was quite a shock since everything in the area had been grey... then bam.. dead inquisitor.. Or to put it more succinctly.. Dead inquisitor wearing<font color="#ff0000"><b> HEAVY </b></font>armor.. you know, that<b> <font color="#ff0000">consistant, stable, average success stream thats a middle ground armor?</font></b>    If I had been playing my monk, I have the firm belief that I would have lasted a lot longer (even possibly survived) simply due to that avoidance that monks get.  This belief is boistered by my experience with similar mobs while playing my monk.   At the very least your assumption as to why I died has no bearing on the avoidance factor of a monk and can not be used in your seeming attempts to convince people to not play them. Do you have an ulterior motive Sage?  Are you upset that you didn't get something with bruiser that we got with monks?  Are you feeling superior because you got something we didnt?   Do you secretly play a guardian and are worried that monks will take your cherished place at the center of attention from you?  I dont understand you and your vitriol, and I would certainly love to know where you are really coming from...because I am sure you have a lot to contribute to any discussion you participate in.. but your campaign to turn everyone away from monks sure makes it hard to listen to any bits of wisdom that you want to impart. </span><div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well no, thats not it at all= i post more in the monk forum for a reason. because monks speak and listen.. bruisers have ALOT less members and its not a good place to state a point lol - you might get feedback from the same 5 people every time.</P> <P>i have nothing at all against monks - im pushing for the future of the branch. nothing more nothing less. </P> <P>and of course the monk wouldve lasted longer in some cases. but then again - i have seen SEVERAL inquisitors with higher AC than me. its just that most dont walk around in elite gear all the time because they dont have to for the most part. if an inquisitor chose to build herself or himself as a gaurdian - equipment wise - they could. the only difference would be is in the defensive capability. such as blocking and avoidance and all that good stuff. because yes-  several guilds have allowed their templar to tank "raid" mobs just for fluff.</P> <P>and as for my trying to sabotage all this to play my alt.. lol i have 1 alt and its an assassin. (lvl 6) still on the isle of refuge. my main is a level 35 bruiser on highkeep server named Ravensage Darkscythe.  that i havent played and probably wont until all this gets sorted out and there achieves some balance or whatever it is they are trying to achieve here.  if they give us consistent tanking ability that is justified by mitigation - we become guardians in light armor.  as of now we can play a dual role = and thats how most if not all like it. the point behind me saying that, is becuase i see no REAL way that they can place us ON PAR with a mitigation tank for a 45 minute fight without over doing us in normal content. which i dont mind - but then again we know is not happening.</P> <P>and if the classes end up balanced around a tank is a tank and a healer is a healer mentality. then everyone will slowly migrate to 1 of 4 classes. simply put. SOE screwed up in the class descriptions as well as the archetype system. simply put. and if that happens and the rest of the classes become fluff or just *the same but different but similar classes*, </P> <P>*I* and everyone that *I*, not speaking for anyone else... i know will not play this game, nor will i.. and thats just it. i would be better off playing city of heroes or a game with some sense of classes and not jobs. who builds a monk/bruiser class around getting hit in concept as opposed to doing damage is a mystery to me anyway. their dreams as well as ours of being flashy tanks - went out the door with the agility nerf. which wasnt done for us to not tank, they couldve made a slight adjustment for that matter so we just got hit more often, that was done so that SCOUTS COULD NEVER TANK AGAIN. thats why it happened in the capacity that it did. str agi wis sta and int= effects all the classes the same. a wizard pre agility patch couldve tanked just as well.. just didnt have time to test it before they caught it.</P> <P>so when i ask questions like - how do you do this without overpowering us in normal content, i get no answeres. when i ask, why fight for one spot when you can have 22 others (potentially) i get no answeres. when i ask whats wrong with being a hyrbid and just doing dps and having a good or great buff that individualizes our class, i get no answeres. so thats why i seem like an [Removed for Content] at times. because personally, i enjoy a good debate- i do and i live for situations like that. but people just come to the boards to unload a dump and leave the rest of the posters to smell their poop. which IMO stinks and posters need to open thier minds beyond wants/desires. </P> <P>you dont form solutions on emotion or desires... thats a proven fact that gets you into bad situations or has you throwing rocks at some chicks window at 4:00 am and getting arrested behind some stupid s*h*it.  there has to be some common sense and logic involved in formulating a sound and positive outcome for all parties involved, which is what should REALLY matter.</P> <DIV>anyone in thier right mind can look at our skill sets and see a balance of Personalized utility (invis, FD, stances, etc) combat arts out the wazoo, and a few taunts too boot. not a bunch of TANK ONLY skills. so when people make comments like we were BUILT TO TANK and such... i wonder where they were looking at. because only one class was built around the core concept of what tanking is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>taking damage with high survive-ability, controlling aggro, and being the most power efficient to heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and yet again, im rapped gagged and beaten for saying it aloud.  the difference doesnt even show until 35-40+ between the tanking types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so thats why i always SEEM like some enraged necromancer hell bent on world domination. because im fighting a losing battle for absolution when people enjoy chaos. if you read through the end of the post called lets be as annonymous as possible... about the monk tanking raid mobs issue... towards the end like page 19+ read the last 3 pages... when i made some key points against the heavy tanking contenders... they all gracefully bowed out of the argument. not because i was right- hell i didnt come up with any better solution than they did, the truth just clicked in all our heads at once, until a certain party stirred it back up again with is bullskit logic. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so sorry for the long explanation, and sorry if i come across a bit off center... </DIV> <DIV>peace...</DIV>

[FamilyManFir]

Sage appears to me to believe that Monks aren't Tanks.  Or, to be more precise, that Monks <i>are</i> Tanks, but inferior Tanks.  He seems to believe so because: 1) Monks get fewer and inferior Taunts, thus being unable to hold aggro in difficult situations, and 2) Avoidance, being random and streaky, is inferior to Mitigation for damage reduction..  However, he believes that this is intended, to make up for significantly higher DPS that Monks put out.  Furthermore, he likes it that way and wants it to stay that way.  (NOTE: all of these are his words, as I recall and understand them, not mine.) <font color="#ff0000"><b>I</b></font> believe that Monks are, and should be, equal Tanks to Guardians (and, incidentally, Paladins).  I believe that the Taunts that Monks get are equally effective as those that Guardians and other plate tanks get, although Monks get one fewer line than Guardians and Berzerkers.  I believe that our DPS is intended to help our aggro management in compensation for the lack of one line of taunts.  I also believe, and I have dev statements to back me up, that Monk and Bruiser DPS is not intended to compete with Mage or Rogue DPS and that, in the future, it won't, whether by increasing Rogue DPS or decreasing Monk DPS.  I believe that it's quite possible to design Avoidance damage reduction such that it's not so streaky as to be significantly more dangerous than Mitigation damage reduction (although I think it should be a <i>little</i> more dangerous to add spice to the class). I readily admit that, as currently implemented, Avoidance tanking doesn't appear to work with currently designed raid encouters (at least, according to all reports I've read).  I think that either Avoidance tanks (Monks and Bruisers) should be tweaked to allow them to tank said raids or new raids should be designed to cater to specific classes, namely Brawlers and Crusaders.  I won't bother going over specific suggestions as I've made them elsewhere. There's no need to assign any ulterior motive to Sage for his statements.  He clearly doesn't like Avoidance tanking and doesn't want it.  He clearly wants Monks and Bruisers to be primarily DPS, although he'll accept a hybrid DPS/Inferior Tank class.  He's also very vocal about it.  Personally, I think he's also rude about it, but he doesn't hold a monopoly on rudeness in this forum.  Gage, whom I frequently admire, is occasionally rude too.  I think that <i>I've</i> been rude a time or two (although I do strive to minimize those occasions). FWIW I believe that Sage is going to be disappointed as time goes by.  It's clear to me, at least, that SOE plans to have Monks and Bruisers be Tanks and not DPS.  They haven't hesitated, in the face of a majority of opposing players, to adjust a class which was primarily played as DPS to reduce its DPS and re-emphasize its Tank role (namely, the Berserker class). <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>1) Monks get fewer and inferior Taunts, thus being unable to hold aggro in difficult situations, and 2) Avoidance, being random and streaky, is inferior to Mitigation for damage reduction..  However, he believes that this is intended, to make up for significantly higher DPS that Monks put out.  Furthermore, he likes it that way and wants it to stay that way.  (NOTE: all of these are his words, as I recall and understand them, not mine.)<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.we get the same calibur, but having to use other things like group buffs is inefficient on pwr and when you have to sacrifice 8 different combat arts to sit there and spam taunts and group buffs, oops= my bad, it was all a big mistake, i dont know why they gave us all those DPS scout moves??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.no i dont think its meant to make up for higher dps, we dont REALLY have higher dps. duh. and you cant fight if you are dead...period. and avoidance tanking<FONT size=5> is</FONT> dangerous and streaky...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. my way would be relavent tanking ability (which we have now) more dps to TRULY OFFSET the lack in HP-AC - . and a unique group buff for raid time. simple solution. which would still give us a forward and reverse roll in the presence of a better tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so dont put words in my mouth on that issue because i DO feel a bit strongly about it.  if you want to be a guardian without the meat and the shield then go ahead. that will destroy this game. if you dont think so. then okay. ive been down that road already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and  ive had my own thread about the fact that i cant solo 4 green group mobs but a guardian can do it with no problems.  and i thought it was totally unfair at the time if we were supposed to tank. i tank nightly - more so as of recent. but when you ask me = do you want to be a guardian with fancy animations and light armor - im going to say no - EVERY TIME.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if this game is going that direction then i wont play it- simply put- there are too many games out there that arent built around making money, there are too many games out there where adventuring is the primary focus and NOT the economy and tradeskilling, there are too many games out there where custimizations and diversity have a purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not just a bunch of classes built around a JOB.  yay.. so you can be a one handed worker or a two handed worker or a 3 fingered worker or a both handed worker with no legs.... [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is that??? thats the most ignorant way in the world to make balanced classes for a game. it doesnt make sense at all... and thats where we are as of NOW. if players like you get your way it will look more like this: you can be a two handed two legged worker with red hair, blue hair, or green hair. its not enough for you that tank types out number every other archetype? probably not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>^^ ( i know that analogy doesnt make sense but you get my point)</DIV> <P>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <SPAN class=date_text>03-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:17 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[xtacti]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caesium wrote:<BR>my ac is about 5k as it was yersterday<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/golf clap</P> <P> </P> <P>Tactix</P> <P><A href="http://soldat.eq2guilds.org" target=_blank><FONT color=#ff0000>Soldat</FONT></A></P>

[NeVeRLi]

Monks deflection skill does not work right and is very dangerous with even blue ^^ being able to kick our butts. On the other hand deflection seems broken even with green named ^^ as they are not even able to touch us! Any caster type monster (even grey con) can now do insane damage (root... nil distortion... dot.. rinse, wash repeat). I know you think why is he using ^^ (double up group monsters) for an example. Well cause as a lvl 43 monk I can solo ^^ that are 4 levels below me and my guardian friend who is also lvl 43 can solo ^^ that are 2 levels below him. (tested in feerrott and everfrost). You tell me who the better tank is please? On this same topic of tanking why are trobadaur's tanking so good? Could it be they can buff their agility so high it breaks over 300 easy.... my friend who is lvl 46 trobadaur can buff his agility to 326 and can solo stuff as good as the guardian. Taking this tanking issue and looking into game balance (reason we dont have PvP). Why are caster classes like Warlocks soloing ^^ that are 2 levels higher than them? Warlocks at say lvl 43 can solo ^^ that are 45) They do it and they do it well! Talk about getting nice exp and better loot. SoE if you dont see the problems here.....  Maybe some day monks will have  a working deflection so even green named ^^ can hit us <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ccff00">SageMarrow wrote:</font><font color="#ccff00"> </font><p><font color="#ccff00">i have nothing at all against monks - im pushing for the future of the branch. nothing more nothing less.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>You dont seem to be pushing for a future of tanking Sage.. you are pushing basically for monks to become tough scouts.  And that is where I see a big problem.  We are not scouts... we aren't in the scout line.. and no justification for wanting more dps and less tanking is going to change that...</p></span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ccff00">and of course the monk wouldve lasted longer in some cases. but then again - i have seen SEVERAL inquisitors with higher AC than me. its just that most dont walk around in elite gear all the time because they dont have to for the most part. if an inquisitor chose to build herself or himself as a gaurdian - equipment wise - they could. the only difference would be is in the defensive capability. such as blocking and avoidance and all that good stuff. because yes-  several guilds have allowed their templar to tank "raid" mobs just for fluff.</font><hr></blockquote>Every inquisitor that I have interacted with and their qeynos counterpart templars have dealt with the heavy armor.. In fact, that to me is part of its flavor.. heavy armor as opposed to the light armor that druids get for example.<blockquote><hr><font color="#ccff00"> if they give us consistent tanking ability that is justified by mitigation - we become guardians in light armor.  as of now we can play a dual role = and thats how most if not all like it. the point behind me saying that, is becuase i see no REAL way that they can place us ON PAR with a mitigation tank for a 45 minute fight without over doing us in normal content. which i dont mind - but then again we know is not happening.</font><hr></blockquote>A guardian can play a dual role, a berserker can play a dual role, a cursader can play a dual role.. having more than one thing you can do does not change what the class specialty is.I have seen serkers (myself included) act as dps, I have seen guardians do the same.  I have seen cursaders act as secondary (and yes even primary) healers.   Lets go further afield.. I have a swashbucker.. I have taunts with my swashy.. Does that mean I want her to tank?  no.. but if I -have- to... I can help save the healer..  its an extra ability that helps add flavor and usefulness to the group..<span><p></p><blockquote><hr><p><font color="#ccff00">and if the classes end up balanced around a tank is a tank and a healer is a healer mentality. then everyone will slowly migrate to 1 of 4 classes. simply put. SOE screwed up in the class descriptions as well as the archetype system. simply put. and if that happens and the rest of the classes become fluff or just *the same but different but similar classes*,</font></p><hr></blockquote>This is where I see you wrong... in a big way.  If the classes get balanced around "<i>a tank is a tank...</i>" then it wont matter which tank you use... it wont matter which healer...  optimal configurations aside it would allow us to choose for flavor as opposed to a holy trinity of classes for a group.  If they do NOT get balanced, then the sub-classes that have unreasonable advantages will end up being the choice of people as they migrate to what works..That is what I am looking at when I take the position that my monk should be equal to my berserker or to a guardian or a cursader...  Note please that I did <b>not</b> say that my monk should be identical or the same... but <b>equal</b>.  To be able to do on the average the same as any other tank class is what I want.<blockquote><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ccff00">so when i ask questions like - how do you do this without overpowering us in normal content, i get no answeres. when i ask, why fight for one spot when you can have 22 others (potentially) i get no answeres. when i ask whats wrong with being a hyrbid and just doing dps and having a good or great buff that individualizes our class, i get no answeres.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>Whats wrong with being a hybrid and just doing dps?  If I wanted to play dps I would load up my scout or my mage and do dps..  if I want to TANK I load up one of my tanks.. if I want to heal I load a healer..  Face it sage, the fighter classes should and <font color="#ff0000"><b>NEED</b></font> to be balanced to be equally good at their stated path of tanking.. Everything else is just flavor and a path to the end.. All paths NEED to end up at the same point on the mountain when all is said and done.. not some of them run off a cliff.</p><blockquote><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ccff00">so thats why i seem like an [Removed for Content] at times. because personally, i enjoy a good debate- i do and i live for situations like that. but people just come to the boards to unload a dump and leave the rest of the posters to smell their poop. which IMO stinks and posters need to open thier minds beyond wants/desires.</font></p><hr></blockquote>A good debate doesn't require that you be an "[Removed for Content]".. thats just an argument...  and your "<i>debate</i>" seems to consist of a constant harrangue intended to disenhearten existing monks and chase away new people interested in the class... By spouting your anti-monk/anti-tank rhetoric you are damaging the community far more than any altruistic goals you claim for "helping" us.  And quite honestly I dont need the kind of help that turns people away from the clas.. I dont need the kind of help that "teaches" others that we cant do our job... please.. go "help" some other class if thats all you are going to do.<blockquote><div><hr><font color="#ccff00">anyone in thier right mind can look at our skill sets and see a balance of Personalized utility (invis, FD, stances, etc) combat arts out the wazoo, and a few taunts too boot. not a bunch of TANK ONLY skills. so when people make comments like we were BUILT TO TANK and such... i wonder where they were looking at. because only one class was built around the core concept of what tanking is:</font><hr></div></blockquote><div>So, by your definition feign death is not a tank skill?  I have certainly used it as a emergency save for myself.. I have also used it with another monk to trade tanking back and forth when we had no healer.. its extra flavor to give us more uniqueness.  Defensive stances are certainly helpful with a tank.. and so are offensive stances..   Defensive ones I hope you can see the reason for.. but offensive help when you have adequate enough healing or superiority over the mob that you want to do more damage or other stuf..  For example thundering fists (when they finally get the fix up) would be a great stance to use when fighting a caster.. stun them a lot and they can't cast spells at you.</div><blockquote><div></div></blockquote><div>Wait..  my berserker has stances too.. I can go into defensive mode and boost my defenses.. I can add a "rage" stance to help me with raging and thus improve my offense.  My cursader gets wards.. higher level ones get heals.. those are more precisely a healer skill and not a tank skill.. so does that mean my berserker and my cursaders should be relegated to "oh we cant find a scout/healer lets get them til we can" role?  or should I do my best to fill the role that I chose for my tanks.. that of tanking?</div><blockquote><div></div><div> </div><div><hr><font color="#ccff00">taking damage with high survive-ability, controlling aggro, and being the most power efficient to heal.</font></div><div><hr></div></blockquote> <div>So, controlling agro is one of the defining qualities of tanking.. yes you and I agree here.. but does that mean my berserker is better at tanking than a guardian?  because I can tell you that of all the guardians (and monks and bruisers and cursaders) that I have been in group with could NOT keep agro from my bersker if I wanted to take it from them..  But, I have no issues keeping agro with my monk, even with a warlock 5-6 levels above me in the group as long as they play their class and their role in group correctly too (i.e. they dont nuke as I am pulling or before I get some hate built up).  I know this for a fact because i have tanked that exact situation.. where I was the lowest level of the group and still kept agro.Being the most power efficient to heal is a biggie... yes we agree there too.. but if taken to its extreme that means that pallys are best.. due to having their own heals and wards..  meaning less for the healer to do.. But, I have no issues with my monk as long as we (in the group) do our jobs right and maintain our abilities to the best that we can... given the caveat that I have NOT tanked raid level content yet.. so I have no experiences there.. but for normal stuff I can survive... but not as well as my serker can and not as well as a guardian.. and -that- is what I want balanced.. </div> <blockquote> <div></div> </blockquote> <div>Overall they should be equal..  NOT identical (as you seem to keep wanting to pigeonhole us into).. I dont want to be a high mitigation guardian.. I want the flavor of a monk with the capacity to hold my own in general as well as a guardian... and I want guardians to be able to do the same with my monk...  I dont see any subclass as needing to be "better" or "lesser" than the others.</div> <blockquote><hr><div><font color="#ccff00">so thats why i always SEEM like some enraged necromancer hell bent on world domination. because im fighting a losing battle for absolution when people enjoy chaos. if you read through the end of the post called lets be as annonymous as possible... about the monk tanking raid mobs issue... towards the end like page 19+ read the last 3 pages... when i made some key points against the heavy tanking contenders... they all gracefully bowed out of the argument. not because i was right- hell i didnt come up with any better solution than they did, the truth just clicked in all our heads at once, until a certain party stirred it back up again with is bullskit logic.</font></div><div><font color="#ccff00"> </font></div><div><font color="#ccff00">so sorry for the long explanation, and sorry if i come across a bit off center...</font></div><div><font color="#ccff00">peace...</font></div><hr></blockquote> It's not that you come across a bit off center.. it's as if you are hell-bent upon making sure that everyone knows that monks cant tank in any capacity except casual setups.. and that we should never expect any better, and in fact should be happy with the crumbs massa gives us...And I wont settle for being relegated to "utility" with my tank... be it berserker or monk..</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Ariven on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:28 PM</span>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>NeVeRLiFt wrote: Taking this tanking issue and looking into game balance (reason we dont have PvP). Why are caster classes like Warlocks soloing ^^ that are 2 levels higher than them? Warlocks at say lvl 43 can solo ^^ that are 45) They do it and they do it well! Talk about getting nice exp and better loot. <div></div><hr></blockquote>There are definate problems with the con system.  I have found if I am taking on a solo or group mob (not counting named) that is 4 levels below any of my alts there is no issue, if its 3 levels.. its dangerous (and in some cases deadly)... But, as an example on how bad stuff is borked.. my berserker cant solo yellow turtles (solo mobs) by the beach in EL, cant even take them with a 26 level ranger with me (since he cant hit it enough to damage them)... but I -can- take solo goblins 2 levels HIGHER than me with no real issues.. yellows, oranges.. etc.. things dont scale according to their con system all the time and you have to test test test to be sure what you can and can not take... But... when working in a group, my monk (with properly configured group) can tank oranges all day long with no issues.. and the occaisional single red (just one level into red) with no problems...  same with my berserker..    the problem is the berserker doesn't need to be as picky about what amount of healing and dps, etc along with as the monk does.. because the heavy armor and high defenses is currently better than the light armor, moderatly decent defenses and so-so avoidance... the avoidance being the key that has to be looked at I think, simply because it is the wildcard...   once that works right then all this debate can go away... I am almost ready to suggest that the avoidance be changed from missing hits entirely to a consistant reduction of damage and just treat it as "armor boost" so that a monk has effective mitigation the same as a comparibly equiped guardian... but then that opens the whole can of worms in the forums where some people will accuse me of "wanting to be a guardian"... And the truth is, I want the flavor of a monk, but equality... thats it.</span><div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>read neverlifts post and shut up about it - you asked for my logic behind it and i gave it = now if you think that tanking is ure specialziation... go ahead....cough cough.. its not right - get over it - you werent MADE for what you THINK you were MADE for...</P> <P>so yet again - read neverlifts post- its not right - wont be right - and cant be right unless the classes are separated from the hip at which they are tied and we all have 24 different uses and 24 different reasons for being in game.</P> <P>thats the ONLY way to achive "balance" with 24 classes in game- what the hell cant you see - it aint working like it is now- cause you wouldnt be here complaining or posting about it would you??? no= thank you</P> <P>...and highlight that crap man... cant read what you wrote from what i wrote...(just as bad as my quicktype)</P> <P> </P> <P>PS. just a FYI- lol - this is about RAIDS tanking, not regular in game tanking - thats a no brainer where we are equal (for the most part). that doesnt even need to be said anymore- any reference i make to tanking goes to raid tanking..not what we do on a daily basis in exp groups.  the only problem is that - what is done on the raid level will also be done on DOWN, not UP. so what is adjusted to better tank a raid mob - will be adjusted to better tank on down 50-3, not the other way around.</P>

[ArivenGemini]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:<p><font color="#ccff00">r</font><font color="#ccff00">ead neverlifts post and shut up about it - you asked for my logic behind it and i gave it = now if you think that tanking is ure specialziation... go ahead....cough cough.. its not right - get over it - you werent MADE for what you THINK you were MADE for...</font></p><hr></blockquote>Why do you keep insisting that you are right and the developers and moorgard are wrong about what monks are made for?  Because quite honestly the numbers of people who select a class based on what YOU think it should be are going to be far fewer than the numbers that select one based on what SOE, the developers and Moorgard insist it should be...</span><span></span><span><blockquote><hr><p><font color="#ccff00">..and highlight that crap man... cant read what you wrote from what i wrote...(just as bad as my quicktype)</font></p><hr></blockquote>Color corrected just for you Sage.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><blockquote><hr><p><font color="#ccff00">PS. just a FYI- lol - this is about RAIDS tanking, not regular in game tanking - thats a no brainer where we are equal (for the most part). that doesnt even need to be said anymore- any reference i make to tanking goes to raid tanking..not what we do on a daily basis in exp groups.  the only problem is that - what is done on the raid level will also be done on DOWN, not UP. so what is adjusted to better tank a raid mob - will be adjusted to better tank on down 50-3, not the other way around.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Just like you like to argue your point, I like to debate mine..  Just like you want to convince all the monks to go play scouts, I like to put forth my opinion... You telling me to "shut up" or trying to exclude my arguments based on what you want to discuss isn't going to prevent me from being part of the community.</span><span></span><div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>actually i used the term shut up - because you asked me to voice my opinion and then you *attempted* to prove me wrong. you dont ask a man to explain himself then tell him why he is wrong for feeling the way he does.</P> <P>and if you look at the class descriptions, they dont say ANYTHING about Fighter = tank.</P> <P>you know that because you read these cotton piking forums like everyone else.  some come here STRICTLY for information and others to talk about the issues revolving around a video game.</P> <P>and if you can find me one class ability page that informs a new player that Fighter = tank, or that MONK = tank or that bruiser = tank </P> <P>or anything else for that matter????? !!!!! i will mail you personally 100 bucks. a guardians is the only one that says anything ALLUDING TO being a tank. "protect his friends".</P> <P>all the other class descriptions are open to interpretation. not inquisitor = healer jargon... when i saw inquisitor - nothing about it said HEALER at all to me... same thing that nothing about monks or bruisers or berserkers or shadowknights - exclusively says TANK either. that is an assumption coupled by SOE's "vision'.(that you would only know from being IN GAME. and playing everyday)</P> <P>since we always have to quote the devs and crap. moorguard also made a recent post on another issue that basically in a round about way said- "we make mistakes in determining what the players want at times and the feedback from them is useful".  so if you change your drinking hand and your pitcher in hopes of changing the flavor of you kool aid then okay... dont bash me because i said i want to ACTAULLY CHANGE the kool aid itself. </P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:49 PM</span>

[NeVeRLi]

I try to enjoy the game and I hate alot things about the game. I hate camping stuff and I have camped stuff all day long, even greys, the economy and crafting and merchant mode in this game is ruined. I cant stand the bossy guilds that think they can tell you who or when to group and what to raid and think they can take your loot or tell you who to give it too. I think the attune with our equipment and the fact most common drops are as good or better than player crafted stuff and even rare player stuff is not all that special and the fact that adept III and masters are worthless  for most skills. This game will never have PvP cause of the great class imbalance. And last but not least I hate how almost all zones are empty except for maybe two groups and I can spend hours LFG. I have tried three guilds so far and even with them it was not always easy to get groups. This game is all about the grouping but its not always easy to get groups. The high end game is lacking so much as all the uber guilds do are camp the named spawns or try and do raids and only the elite few wellcomed and even then you gonna hand over the ebon and master drops to those that say they need it if you group with them. I love the chat channels and alot the people I have meet in the game and love RPG and having fun even thou the game has so much wrong with it at this point in time. Just cause I voice my opinion and point out things wrong with the game does not mean I dont like it.. as I like, its just I dont know how much more of this I can take. I dont like spending hours LFG and I wont put up with some of these big guilds and the way they think they can run over people. <div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:<p>and if you look at the class descriptions, they dont say ANYTHING about Fighter = tank.</p><p>you know that because you read these cotton piking forums like everyone else.  some come here STRICTLY for information and others to talk about the issues revolving around a video game.</p><p>and if you can find me one class ability page that informs a new player that Fighter = tank, or that MONK = tank or that bruiser = tank</p><p>or anything else for that matter????? !!!!! i will mail you personally 100 bucks. a guardians is the only one that says anything ALLUDING TO being a tank. "protect his friends".</p><p>all the other class descriptions are open to interpretation. not inquisitor = healer jargon... when i saw inquisitor - nothing about it said HEALER at all to me... same thing that nothing about monks or bruisers or berserkers or shadowknights - exclusively says TANK either. that is an assumption coupled by SOE's "vision'.(that you would only know from being IN GAME. and playing everyday)</p><hr></blockquote>You know as well as I do that the "class pages" use flavor text to describe the classes.. but... "<i>always at the forefront of combat, fighters stand toe-to-toe with their opponants while keeping their allies from harm</i>" certainly doesn't fit YOUR description of "oh, lets stand on the side and do DPS and the occaisional feign death...  in fact its much more in line with "maintaining agro control while the group attacks" or "tanking"While we are looking at the class descriptions I did look at the inquisitor one.. it is kinda clear in saying :  "<i>skilled healers, they administer to the body while seizing control of the soul</i>"So yeah I guess I picked inquisitor for a healer pretty accurately... but thats just picking nits on my part because your argumentative mood has worn off a bit.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So, in faced with the "flavor text" that I am sure both of us have seen moorgard refer to as flavor and not the end all be all... not much is proven, though it sure seems more in line with what I view monks(fighters) as than what you do... but when the representative of the developers states clearly, concisely and in no uncertain terms that monks are tanks... It kinda blows your "I want to make you monks do dps" argument out of the water..<blockquote><p></p></blockquote></span><div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <DIV>1.we get the same calibur, but having to use other things like group buffs is inefficient on pwr and when you have to sacrifice 8 different combat arts to sit there and spam taunts and group buffs, oops= my bad, it was all a big mistake, i dont know why they gave us all those DPS scout moves??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.no i dont think its meant to make up for higher dps, we dont REALLY have higher dps. duh. and you cant fight if you are dead...period. and avoidance tanking<FONT size=5> is</FONT> dangerous and streaky...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. my way would be relavent tanking ability (which we have now) more dps to TRULY OFFSET the lack in HP-AC - . and a unique group buff for raid time. simple solution. which would still give us a forward and reverse roll in the presence of a better tank.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____<BR></DIV> <DIV>Did you even read that ariven? personally, i tank frequently, about as often as i DPS.... we tank just fine 1-50, in the absence of a better tank is where i would like to perfect our class. so that come raid time, we are going for dps and the group buff. (cause we will NEVER go to tank in comparison to a gaurdian), 1-50 if we are supposed to get the dps in order to **offset** our tanking ability, then do something like make us have REALLY short recast timers and cut casting cost in half... to keep up the dps...</DIV> <DIV>and give us a relavant group buff...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>which would keep us where we are 1-50 tanking away... and give us a concurrent place on raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so where did you ever come up with this sage wants monks to be dps thing from? if you ask me would i like to be a Meat SHield without the meat and the shield then i will tell you HELL NO. every day all day. im not insisting on dps at all. but then again who would want to be a bruiser that only gets bruised...that would suck man.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>while gaurdians would gladly take a dps nerf, they dont care- thats not what they rolled the class for. they rolled it to guard stuff.. not the opposite. or not in between. beserkers expected to be able to do damage. so do shadowknights and paladins for the most part... so if they balance us on a tanking level, there will be no point in 4 different fighter types...</DIV></DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P><FONT color=#cc0000>Sagemarrow wrote:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>like make us have REALLY short recast timers and cut casting cost in half... to keep up the dps...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>and give us a relavant group buff...</FONT></P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________</P> <P>which in essence would make the balance perfect IMO,</P> <P>when going for exp groups with the need for speed and efficiency to maximize experince, we would be the perfect tank above a guardian then the beserkers and crusaders.</P> <P>when fighting something 5 levels higher than us that cons ^^ named crazy ++ stuff/raids that requires consistency and pace and mitigation as opposed to speed... guardians will take thier rightful place, while the other classes dps.</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=6>WE DON'T WANT INCREASED DPS, WE ARE TANKS.  GO PLAY EQ1 OR A SCOUT/MAGE CLASS SAGE.</FONT></P> <P> </P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>Gotta love the passion, give it to me one more time with a teary eyed look then we can roll film....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ACTION!!!</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>and who is we???</P> <P>i dont know this WE fellow, i dont think that you do either lol-</P>

[Gaige]

<P>Hmm.  You're right.</P> <P>Tully14, me, Ariven, FamilyManFirst, GangsterFist, SomeDudeCRO, SniperKitten, Jezekial... and the many others.</P> <P>That's not we, its more like us.</P> <P>Please continue to ignore me.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>thats 6 people, gangster fist bit the bullet long time ago, not because he gave up on the dream, but because he realized the inevitable. which the rest of the mob needs to do. just to say you can isnt a good enough reason to make everyone in an archetype strict tanks with no alternate roll if thats how they chose to play the class. the option shoudlve NEVER been there if that was the case that we are ONLY tanks persay..</P> <P>no matter how much you want it - they will not give us a gaurdians tanking ability - which is what will be needed to be a decent or *on par* raid tank, we wont get a paladins heals, which is the only reason they can raid tank at all... you are a MONK, nothing more = nothing less. you are a 5th rank tank and 2nd rate dps class. you will never be 1 rank tank and 6 rank dps... that spot is already filled homie. and thats not to say that they all follow that pattern, but for the most part they do. im a bruiser- im 6 rank tank and 1 rate dps out of the fighters. beserkers are the only ones that throw off the flow with multiple mobs in group.</P> <P>they wont commit MMO suicide by making all thier classes the same cookie dough and use a cookie cutter to try and make them different... and if they do= you and your following will see the effects there of in massive drops in player count.</P> <P>they gave what they promised- you tank just fine 1-50. period.  now go find something to do at a raid = cause it will never be tanking.</P> <P>good day!</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>and dont make me go find the US... that wouldnt trade thier dps for tanking ability... that would take a long long time...</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>thats 6 people,</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ha Ha, really?  Try to use the fingers on both hands.  Besides those were the ones I could name off the top of my head.  That isn't a complete list by any means.  I was just showing you how stupid your comment is that tries to portray me as the only one who thinks we should be tanks.</P> <P>Do you ever get tired of using exaggerations and assumptions as facts?</P> <P>Probably not, since you have nothing else.</P> <P>Sage, at least you make me laugh.</P><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 AM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>just because you walk on egg shells and refuse to use common sense or assumptions in your debates and rely on dev comments that have proven to have the consistency of a urinal puck...</P> <P>doesnt mean that everyone who thinks past what is spoon fed to them is exaggerating or assuming and ignorant.</P> <P>if you ask me why is the sky blue i will tell you that its because O3 otherwise known as ozone is a blue gas under UV light...= FACT</P> <P>if you ask me is bush a good president and should be follow his lead = i would tell you No the man is a blithering idiot and a mockery of what this country has and is capable of producing in a leader.</P> <P>thats an assumption or an opinion, but somehow it still seems true... just because you pull your "fact" from the daily show as opposed to "CNN" doesnt make one more FACT than the other.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>with the idea and logic you provide gage, that means that all the people who chose to play anything but a guardian will just be guardians in a round about way as well as all other classes... without the ability to fill alternate rolls.</P> <P>if snipers equation is right in TOTALITY:</P> <P>we will all be tanks on par with guards in a different way. and will be left to squabble over 1 spot in group.</P> <P>all scouts will be on par with all other scouts and bard types will be nerfed of their buffs and regens and exchanged with dps moves. and given choice of spots 2-6 in group</P> <P>casters will all be gutted and given wizard like dps and fragility that comes with the territory.  and give choice of 2-6 in group</P> <P>Healers will all be given cleric like debuffs and heals and given choice 2-6 in group.</P> <P>_____________________________________</P> <P>and this is what WILL happen if all fighter classes are BALANCED to tank as well as guardians...or is this another one of my outlandish exaggerations as well?</P> <DIV>while you constantly imply that *technically* this is SOE's vision = wouldnt the other archetypes have to follow suit?  the current balance doesnt say what you THINK it does, with them nerfing us with shrug off, because we are next to NECESSARY on raids, then wouldnt the bard buffs have to go as well? since they are NECESSARY above and beyond shrug off??? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh no = theres is okay because they are scouts and since they cant tank anything they get to have the utility of all the scouts and more in the same breath with less dps.... but hold on, they can tank because they can buff their agility to <FONT size=4><STRONG><EM><U>326+ and just not get hit...</U></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U><FONT size=3></FONT></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>so???????????? this isnt going to work unless they take MORE TIME into this gage = its not as simple as going one way or the other about this... this game needs ALOT of work within this so called GREAT archetype system. it will never be perfect if they or you or i try to achieve balance that way...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U><FONT size=4></FONT></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U><FONT size=3></FONT></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>just because you walk on egg shells and refuse to use common sense or assumptions in your debates and rely on dev comments that have proven to have the consistency of a urinal puck...  <FONT color=#ffff00>Well your common sense can be debated, but whatever.  So wait... you are telling me with a straight face that your assumption is more informed and accurate than a dev comment?</FONT></P> <P>doesnt mean that everyone who thinks past what is spoon fed to them is exaggerating or assuming and ignorant.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Actually when you a) ignore what the devs explicitly say and b) make up your own mind on how things work/supposed to work/will work you actually are assuming.  Look up the definition if you are unclear.  Also you specifically exaggerate almost all of the time, and a lot of what you say is ignorant, since its about lvls and experiences you haven't played first hand.  Not to mention you are overly dramatic, but I digress.</FONT></P> <P>if you ask me why is the sky blue i will tell you that its because O3 otherwise known as ozone is a blue gas under UV light...= FACT  <FONT color=#ffff00>That has... what to do with EQ2?</FONT></P> <P>if you ask me is bush a good president and should be follow his lead = i would tell you No the man is a blithering idiot and a mockery of what this country has and is capable of producing in a leader.  <FONT color=#ffff00>That's opinion.  You have a lot of those, go figure.</FONT></P> <P>thats an assumption or an opinion, but somehow it still seems true... just because you pull your "fact" from the daily show as opposed to "CNN" doesnt make one more FACT than the other.  <FONT color=#ffff00>No.  The bush thing is pure opinion.  The daily show is a known spoof show where CNN is known real legitimate news.  So I think you are confused.  Go figure.</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SageMarrow]

<P>which yet again illustrates how closed minded you are and what world you live in...</P> <P>The daily show and CNN have the same EXACT credibility... its ALL OPINION GAGE - information relayed from one unreliable source to another... if anything you may get some real feed back and personalized commentary from the daily show way before CNN.</P> <P>the only source that knows the entire truth is THE SOURCE that it involves. SOE is the only source that can truly tell you what and how they plan on shaping this game. period. and they are not going to kill themselves. A system such as mentoring took alot of work and interface twinking, but they didnt say ANYTHING ABOUT IT until one day it just pops up and here we go. they didnt do that in one day - or one week= no one knew it was coming except them. Nothing was even rumored about it prior to it... </P> <P>so if you think they tell us "everything" then you are mistaken, if you think they dont leave some things to be desired (if not to keep it secret from the other devs that read here and would steal a great idea in a heart beat..) then yet again... you are a sad adult and probably are very conservative in your approach to all things.</P> <P>which is your business, everyday all day, but that is not reality.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>with the idea and logic you provide gage, that means that all the people who chose to play anything but a guardian will just be guardians in a round about way as well as all other classes... without the ability to fill alternate rolls.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  But I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand equality with differences.  You've made that much clear.</FONT></P> <P>if snipers equation is right in TOTALITY:  <FONT color=#ffff00>It is.</FONT></P> <P>we will all be tanks on par with guards in a different way. and will be left to squabble over 1 spot in group.  <FONT color=#ffff00>We should, and we should.  Actually two: offtanks are needed a lot of times, although probably not most xp groups.</FONT></P> <P>all scouts will be on par with all other scouts and bard types will be nerfed of their buffs and regens and exchanged with dps moves. and given choice of spots 2-6 in group  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  But then again you don't understand the archetype system, let alone are you able to fathom the way they are balanced.</FONT></P> <P>casters will all be gutted and given wizard like dps and fragility that comes with the territory.  and give choice of 2-6 in group  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong again!  Go figure.</FONT></P> <P>Healers will all be given cleric like debuffs and heals and given choice 2-6 in group.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Actually no.  But I don't have time to explain the archetype system to you for the 1,148,492,495th time.  Sorry.</FONT></P> <P>_____________________________________</P> <P>and this is what WILL happen if all fighter classes are BALANCED to tank as well as guardians...or is this another one of my outlandish exaggerations as well?  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yes, it is.  Its one of the more extreme exaggerations actually.  I'm quite impressed.  </FONT></P> <P>while you constantly imply that *technically* this is SOE's vision = wouldnt the other archetypes have to follow suit?  the current balance doesnt say what you THINK it does, with them nerfing us with shrug off, because we are next to NECESSARY on raids, then wouldnt the bard buffs have to go as well? since they are NECESSARY above and beyond shrug off???   <FONT color=#ffff00>No, shrug off is overpowered and is making raid encounters trivial.  Its helping to allow guardians/paladins/**** to evade as well as bruisers/monks.  Among other things.  When one class with one buff can add almost 1/5th of a guardians buffed AC, that is what we like to call OVERPOWERING.</FONT></P> <DIV>oh no = theres is okay because they are scouts and since they cant tank anything they get to have the utility of all the scouts and more in the same breath with less dps.... but hold on, they can tank because they can buff their agility to <FONT size=4><EM><STRONG><U>326+ and just not get hit....</U> </STRONG></EM></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> I'd almost bet that has to do with defense and not agility.  I'd also wager it will be changed just like agility was <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>S<FONT size=3>o???????????? this isnt going to work unless they take MORE TIME into this gage = its not as simple as going one way or the other about this... this game needs ALOT of work within this so called GREAT archetype system. it will never be perfect if they or you or i try to achieve balance that way...  <FONT color=#ffff00>You're wrong.  Its working almost perfectly.  A few classes need fixed, some stats/buffs need tweaked and a few changes need to be made, but they are working on it.  Its way better than your "vision".</FONT></FONT> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>and yes - with a straight face, what i have experienced and what others have experienced in the same capacity , and what is seen every time you log on and in every nerf, i mean bug fix, they make without representation and fixes to the things that dont/never worked in the first place....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YES those things are stronger than anything devs spout out of thier traps...</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>you play a totally different game from everyone else... im sorry , you just do man. </P> <P>maybe we all need to start playing what you play. then we will be happy in gage land,</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>which yet again illustrates how closed minded you are and what world you live in...  <FONT color=#ffff00>*shrug*</FONT></P> <P>The daily show and CNN have the same EXACT credibility... its ALL OPINION GAGE - information relayed from one unreliable source to another... if anything you may get some real feed back and personalized commentary from the daily show way before CNN.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Are you serious?  OMG, dude if you are serious I feel sorry for you.</FONT></P> <P>the only source that knows the entire truth is THE SOURCE that it involves. SOE is the only source that can truly tell you what and how they plan on shaping this game. period. and they are not going to kill themselves. A system such as mentoring took alot of work and interface twinking, but they didnt say ANYTHING ABOUT IT until one day it just pops up and here we go. they didnt do that in one day - or one week= no one knew it was coming except them. Nothing was even rumored about it prior to it...  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  They talked about a sort of system like that in beta as well as fellowships.</FONT></P> <P>so if you think they tell us "everything" then you are mistaken, if you think they dont leave some things to be desired (if not to keep it secret from the other devs that read here and would steal a great idea in a heart beat..) then yet again... you are a sad adult and probably are very conservative in your approach to all things.  <FONT color=#ffff00>You know, I never said they tell us everything.  I do talk about what they have told us though.  There is a difference.  Nice jab at my political thinking though, I enjoyed it.  Oh and thank you for your concern about me being a sad adult, your compassion and pity is noted, but unnecessary.  Concentrate on your own life, I'm happy with mine <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>which is your business, everyday all day, but that is not reality.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Once again, you've totally lost me.  Congratulations <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gaige]

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>you play a totally different game from everyone else... im sorry , you just do man.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Nah, ask Tully14.  We just grouped in Lava Storm the other day.</FONT></P> <P>maybe we all need to start playing what you play. then we will be happy in gage land,  <FONT color=#ffff00>You wouldn't like it Sage, bruisers/monks are tanks in gage land.  I don't think you have the skill to play what I play <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Stick to not playing and posting, it suits your abilities better.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SageMarrow]

<P>you must really think that this is a pretty plaid and pink polka dotted world... thats cute.  You must be a middle aged white male. that would explain this entire argument.  you have conservative views and structured imagination based on your experiences in life = so at this point we are oil and water - cause im the exact and precise opposite of you. and im going to lose you every single time.</P> <P>okay - well its time to end this = or we could just get the thread locked....?? wont hurt anything cause its a dead argument anyway...</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>and yes - with a straight face, what i have experienced and what others have experienced in the same capacity , and what is seen every time you log on and in every nerf, i mean bug fix, they make without representation and fixes to the things that dont/never worked in the first place....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YES those things are stronger than anything devs spout out of thier traps...  <FONT color=#ffff00>Its only too bad that your ego can't live up to the hype.  Nothing you have ever said has been more informative, true or useful as the numerous dev comments I've seen.  You are just a college kid playing a game Sage.  Your posts/opinions/wants/desires are nothing in the realm of EQ2.  They are just like mine, and every other player.  Meaningless.  For you to think that your statements and views are not only equal to, but more important/informative/correct than the devs who make this game is laughable.  What world do YOU live in?</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SageMarrow]

<P>hmm skill? tanking in this game doesnt take skill you idiot.... not many things at all take skill in this game you idiot... its apparent that you play MMO's too much. you arent a gamer and you dont know skill. you are talking to a 3 time finalist in both madden challenge national tournaments and tekken tag and soul calibur....</P> <P>those games take skill. </P> <P>in everquest you are a product of your character and gear.  and this game numbs it down even more.. a gnome guardian with good gear is still a gnome guardian and he gets access to everything that a guardian does, thats not skill.. you are a convoluted fool. its skill on the level of what the game can provide. but in no sense is it REAL skill.</P> <P>yet again - what game are YOU playing? you call pushing macros and keeping awake skill???? </P> <P>boy oh boy- you must suck at everything that isnt a time sink...</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>you must really think that this is a pretty plaid and pink polka dotted world... thats cute.  You must be a middle aged white male. that would explain this entire argument.  you have conservative views and structured imagination based on your experiences in life = so at this point we are oil and water - cause im the exact and precise opposite of you. and im going to lose you every single time.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Sage just how big is your ego?  You are going to tell me that because you lack the intelligence, fortitude and ability to talk about a game with me you are going to ASSUME my race, my age, my political views, and my life experiences?  I know your ethnicity and approximate age Sage.  I know this because you posted it in another thread, which of course was ridiculed just as I'm doing for putting your personal information into a thread about a video game.  You don't know me other than some posts you've read on a forum.  I LAUGH at your pathetic and futile attempt to end this discussion because "we are oil and water".  You don't even know me.  I do love your assumptions though, they just keep right on rolling. Just admit you are intimidated Sage.  Just admit you are outmatched and outwitted. Its sad that you have to assume to know me by some sentences I've typed on a forum about a stupid video game in order to make my position seem less relevant.</FONT></P> <P>okay - well its time to end this = or we could just get the thread locked....?? wont hurt anything cause its a dead argument anyway...  <FONT color=#ffff00>Locked or not, who cares.  You've derailed this far and wide from where it should've been.  You attacked me personally.  What a sign of weakness.  Tsk Tsk.  Besides Sage, you said you were going to "end this" and "ignore me" hours ago.  Struggling with your initiative and will power?</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SageMarrow]

<P>and if the devs had all the answeres the game wouldve been done at release and they wouldnt rely on us for feedback and suggestions... </P> <P>the archetype system is broken - get over it</P> <P>they didnt have a darn thing together at release but the graphics engine - get over it</P> <P>these things shouldve been done and taken care of in the beggining - if you cant understand that im sorry. the economy, the classes, and everything else for that matter.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>naw this is actually pretty fun and i cant sleep for the most part... sucks i know - that you have to be the whipping boy of the day.</P> <P>intimidated - yes-</P> <P>scared - yes</P> <P>outwitted = yes</P> <P>(when you havent answered one question from anyone  = on any board - ever...you hide behind dev statements and back them up with, "Ive got SOE on my side, what do you" )</P> <P>if you have outwitted me and intimidated me with that...okay. you win.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>hmm skill? tanking in this game doesnt take skill you idiot.... not many things at all take skill in this game you idiot... its apparent that you play MMO's too much. you arent a gamer and you dont know skill. you are talking to a 3 time finalist in both madden challenge national tournaments and tekken tag and soul calibur....  <FONT color=#ffff00>More assumptions?  Yeah I didn't play Cal-M Counter-Strike for 4 years, I haven't played fighting games since the original Street Fighter, I didn't play hours and hours of Tekken 3 and Tekken Tag in college.  You'd know that because you know so much about me.  I mean you've read some of my posts on the EQ2 forum, I'm sure you have my life down pat.  Oh and idiot twice in the same run on sentence.  *sigh*  You are ceasing to amuse me with your witty banter.  /sarcasm.  Oh, and congrats on being the almost as good as the champions of all those tournaments.  Do you feel better about yourself now?</FONT></P> <P>those games take skill.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I know, I play them all.  Not a big SC fan though, too much button mashing for me, its weak.</FONT></P> <P>in everquest you are a product of your character and gear.  and this game numbs it down even more.. a gnome guardian with good gear is still a gnome guardian and he gets access to everything that a guardian does, thats not skill.. you are a convoluted fool. its skill on the level of what the game can provide. but in no sense is it REAL skill.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Oh, no skill?  Does that explain why you suck as a bruiser tank and Jezekiel doesn't?  Yeah just like your common sense isn't REAL common sense <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>yet again - what game are YOU playing? you call pushing macros and keeping awake skill???? <FONT color=#ffff00>I don't use macros.  I do call being able to stomach your posts over and over some sort of skill, I should get a special forum title for doing it.</FONT></P> <P>boy oh boy- you must suck at everything that isnt a time sink...  <FONT color=#ffff00>O_o  You finished another post with an ASSUMPTION!  I love it Sage, you are like the assumption master.  You should talk about assumptions, you are good at those.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>and if the devs had all the answeres the game wouldve been done at release and they wouldnt rely on us for feedback and suggestions...  <FONT color=#ffff00>LoL!  Yeah because we know SoE employs 350,000 people who play the game every possible way they can.  Riiiight.</FONT></P> <P>the archetype system is broken - get over it  <FONT color=#ffff00>Its not, get educated.</FONT></P> <P>they didnt have a darn thing together at release but the graphics engine - get over it  <FONT color=#ffff00>Heh, really?  What was all those quests and stuff I did from the morning of release?  I must of been imagining playing the game.</FONT></P> <P>these things shouldve been done and taken care of in the beggining - if you cant understand that im sorry. the economy, the classes, and everything else for that matter.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Right.  Because MMOs don't change, they aren't ever evolving.  They should be done at release and never messed with again.  Like all the MMOs that are like that... oh wait, none are like that.  Go figure.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>naw this is actually pretty fun and i cant sleep for the most part... sucks i know - that you have to be the whipping boy of the day.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I'm at work.  Can you believe me I get paid to laugh at you?  Its great.  I'm the whipping boy?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  See, you did it again.</FONT></P> <P>intimidated - yes-  <FONT color=#ffff00>I know.</FONT></P> <P>scared - yes  <FONT color=#ffff00>Understandable.</FONT></P> <P>outwitted = yes  <FONT color=#ffff00>Heh, sorry <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>(when you havent answered one question from anyone  = on any board - ever...you hide behind dev statements and back them up with, "Ive got SOE on my side, what do you" )  <FONT color=#ffff00>That shows your ignorance, I've answered plenty of questions.  Go figure, I use dev statements to back up arguements about the game they make.  OMG!</FONT></P> <P>if you have outwitted me and intimidated me with that...okay. you win.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I won a long time ago.  I just didn't have the heart to tell you.  I'm too nice of a guy.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[bonesbro]

It used to be my goal to read every single post on this forum, but I admit that when I find arguments like this I just sort of skim past them to see if anyone else is posting. <div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<p>Hmm.  You're right.</p> <p>Tully14, me, Ariven, FamilyManFirst, GangsterFist, SomeDudeCRO, SniperKitten, Jezekial... and the many others.</p> <p>That's not we, its more like us.</p> <p>Please continue to ignore me.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Its not a small group.. thats for sure... </span><div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>its alot smaller than the monks/bruisers who didnt sign up to be lightly armored punching bags, for darn sure.</P> <P>a nerf in dps and an increase in tanking ability makes you what????</P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>its alot smaller than the monks/bruisers who didnt sign up to be lightly armored punching bags, for darn sure.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Assumption.</FONT></P> <P>a nerf in dps and an increase in tanking ability makes you what????  <FONT color=#ffff00>Nobody wants our DPS nerfed.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SageMarrow]

<P>Do we need to take another poll to prove me right gage? lets hope not.</P> <P>a boost to scouts equals a nerf to fighters, a nerf to fighters = a nerf to fighters in the same instance.</P>

[Genarhof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>a boost to scouts equals a nerf to fighters, a nerf to fighters = a nerf to fighters in the same instance.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>actually, a boost to scouts equals just that, a boost to scouts.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>hmmm>? lets see, what class do you play?  alot of monk/bruisers dont go to raids to tank, they also dont get ALOT of groups to tank either... they get a group to dps, so while most will take thier scout out of the closet post scout dps boost... you will see alot less bruiser/monk types squeezing in at the tail end of groups. (regarding exp and pick up groups and raids). and with the magnitude of OTHER fighter types, that get the benefits of heavy armor...</P> <P>Ive said this a billion times... you see my point. no one expects a berserker to be at the top of the dps tree(in the fighter archetype)... they expect that out of us... a scout enhancement wont bother any other fighter type but brawlers.</P> <P>crusaders=spells</P> <P>warriors= exclusive tanking..(not saying they cant dps-thats just thier *implied* roll)</P> <P>brawler=high dps capability, with tanking subset ability.</P> <P>So in the presence of a better tank and ANY scout... we just dont get to go to the happy place at all do we? </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Genarhof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>hmmm>? lets see, what class do you play?  alot of monk/bruisers dont go to raids to tank, they also dont get ALOT of groups to tank either... they get a group to dps, so while most will take thier scout out of the closet post scout dps boost... you will see alot less bruiser/monk types squeezing in at the tail end of groups. (regarding exp and pick up groups and raids). and with the magnitude of OTHER fighter types, that get the benefits of heavy armor...</P> <P>Ive said this a billion times... you see my point. no one expects a berserker to be at the top of the dps tree(in the fighter archetype)... they expect that out of us... a scout enhancement wont bother any other fighter type but brawlers.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>ok, trying to get some sense out of your post, but you just ramble on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To answer the question of which class I play, thats easy, I am a Monk, you know, the tank's that you try to say are not tanks, just dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every group I have been part of so far, I have tanked, I have yet to be invited on the basis of doing dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You really should do yourself a favour, and look at this <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=5736#M5736" target=_blank>post</A>   ( <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=5736#M5736" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=5736#M5736</A>  )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pay attention to this section :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Damage Output</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There has been a lot of discussion on the forums since launch regarding the relative power of each class when it comes to dealing damage. The intended order of damage output by archetype is (and always has been): mage, scout, <STRONG>fighter</STRONG>, priest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See where fighters fit into the grand scheme of things? two whole archetypes are supposed to do more damage than us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>SageMarrow wrote:</P> <P> </P> <P>crusaders=spells</P> <P><BR>warriors= exclusive tanking..(not saying they cant dps-thats just thier *implied* roll)</P> <P>brawler=high dps capability, with tanking subset ability.</P> <P>So in the presence of a better tank and ANY scout... we just dont get to go to the happy place at all do we? </P> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I dont see it quite the same way you do, to me it is more like:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusaders = Tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warriors = Tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawler = Tank</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to back this up a little, here is another snippet from the post found at <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=5736#M5736" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=5736#M5736</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The greatest imbalance currently in the game relates to <STRONG>fighters</STRONG>. <STRONG>Tanks</STRONG> <STRONG>are supposed to absorb damage</STRONG>, but they're also currently the best at dishing it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you get the point? Fighters (all fighters) are Tanks.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>/yawn... read about 10000000 more post.</P> <P>/yawn...post about 10000000 more times....</P> <P>come back when you are ready my child. you have much to learn young one...</P>

[Moussacoy]

<DIV>Gage's Reply to Sagemarrow</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>its alot smaller than the monks/bruisers who didnt sign up to be lightly armored punching bags, for darn sure.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Assumption. </FONT><FONT color=#ff6699>An Assumption of an assumption.</FONT></P> <P>a nerf in dps and an increase in tanking ability makes you what????  <FONT color=#ffff00>Nobody wants our DPS nerfed. </FONT><FONT color=#ff6699>Another assumption</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Genarhofen wrote: <blockquote> <hr> SageMarrow wrote: <div></div> <p>a boost to scouts equals a nerf to fighters, a nerf to fighters = a nerf to fighters in the same instance. </p><hr> </blockquote>actually, a boost to scouts equals just that, a boost to scouts.<hr></blockquote>Exactly..  As long as we can tank, it doesn't matter that one of the DPS classes gets more DPS.. because by role definition we cannot compare the two classes.. Now, if the developers stated that we are a DPS class (or subclass) then I would understand and see it as a nerf... but they haven't so it isnt... It is clear there is more work to be done educating the general players to let them understand that all fighter subclasses are indeed tanks... and if there is some imbalance that prevents any of them from operating on a equal basis in the same general role of tank then that needs to be addressed... NOT "oh lets get some DPS in our class so that we have a reason to be invited".. that just causes more problems because it tries to teach people that monks and bruisers should be DPS and not Tanking.. And -that- is a nerf... in perception... so it is something I am going to work against.. both here in the forums and in the game in groups.. to help ensure my groupmates understand that any fighter class can tank as long as the player knows that it is a tank.. and has the skillset to do so (because irregardless of what you think Sage, being a tank does take skill..) </span><div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>ariven so you honestly would like to curse the entire fighter archetype to always have to compete for 1 slot be it in groups in raids or anywhere else?</P> <P>so you would like all of the monks and bruisers in game now to go on a pilgrimage to convince every templar and other type of character in game that we are tanks and do it well? and you expect it to work?</P> <P>if a noticeable gap is placed between scout and fighter dps, then there will be no need for other fighters to go in groups or raids for that matter right? buff stacking? or just replace it with other classes that would ensure a faster kill?</P> <P>so you would honestly push to be a meat shield without the meat and the shield? a lightly armored punching bag persay?</P> <P>do you understand the balance that would ensue if we are just as guardiany as a guardian or anything else in heavy armor?</P> <P>we often split hairs, but the same but different but similar... = equals the same thing.  </P> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>(edit) equal but different is indeed achievable, but thats not how this game was built or the direction that it seems to be going...equal but different would be all the same damage output in different ways of doing it... equal quality of tanking with different ways of doing it. but its apparent that they didnt put that much time into the classes in that manner as to make monks -  realistically monkish but still do the job they are intended to do on par with the others in the same archetype.. personally i wouldnt want the task of doing that for 24 classes as it would take unparalleled testing of every move/skill in every situation available then comparing them to every class in archetype for balance then yet again to every other archetypes abilities to make sure that they too fall in to the order they predetermined as the desired goal... sound complicated?...heck yeah!</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:58 AM</span>

[ArivenGemini]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:<p>ariven so you honestly would like to curse the entire fighter archetype to always have to compete for 1 slot be it in groups in raids or anywhere else?</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Better than being cursed as a second rate DPS that can only get a job when noone else is available as is <b>YOUR</b> desire.  My desire is to have the class perform as it is supposed to, as a tank.</font></span><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"><span></span></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><span><blockquote><hr><p>if a noticeable gap is placed between scout and fighter dps, then there will be no need for other fighters to go in groups or raids for that matter right? buff stacking? or just replace it with other classes that would ensure a faster kill?</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Again you are showing a lack of understanding of what the archetype is about.. it is about tanking... it is about support, it isn't about leading the fray with DPS.. it is about supporting the group while they kill it.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">If we add a bit of DPS, great.  If we add group buffs Fantastic..  if we can support everyone while the DPS classes focus on removing the mobs perfect.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"><span>If you do not understand how to be support as a offtank and provide extra capacity and safety to a group then maybe you stopped playing the game too early and you need to investigate the archetype more fully.</span></font><span></span><blockquote><hr><p>do you understand the balance that would ensue if we are just as guardiany as a guardian or anything else in heavy armor?</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Sounds pretty balanced to me...  different sub-classes for different flavor, everyone able to do the job effectively the same.. Whereas you just want to force a  sub-class that you dont even play to be relegated to "backup DPS" slots</font><blockquote><hr>we often split hairs, but the same but different but similar... = equals the same thing. <div><font color="#ffffff">(edit) equal but different is indeed achievable, but thats not how this game was built or the direction that it seems to be going...equal but different would be all the same damage output in different ways of doing it... equal quality of tanking with different ways of doing it. but its apparent that they didnt put that much time into the classes in that manner as to make monks -  realistically monkish but still do the job they are intended to do on par with the others in the same archetype.. personally i wouldnt want the task of doing that for 24 classes as it would take unparalleled testing of every move/skill in every situation available then comparing them to every class in archetype for balance then yet again to every other archetypes abilities to make sure that they too fall in to the order they predetermined as the desired goal... sound complicated?...heck yeah!</font></div><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class="date_text">03-21-2005</span><span class="time_text">06:58 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">No sage, equal but different would NOT be all the same damage output in different ways of doing it.. it would be performing the job of the tank to the same effective level ... which is NOT a dps thing.. it is a "manage agro and handle incoming damage in a efficient manner while the group kills the creatures" ... trying to force us to be DPS is going against what the developers have stated is our archetype... </font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">And it doesn't matter if YOU cant figure out how to balance the 24 sub-classes appropriately in their archetype.. nor does it matter if it is complicated to you.. the fact that the developers have made clear that the fighter lines are tanks is pretty simple to some of us.. and pretty easy for me to want to be able to fulfill my chosen role in the group when I am playing tank.</font></span><div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>gage, i mean ariven..</P> <P>okay. ur right. </P>

[Genarhof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>/yawn... read about 10000000 more post.</P> <P>/yawn...post about 10000000 more times....</P> <P>come back when you are ready my child. you have much to learn young one...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How many posts I have read, or made for that matter, is beside the point, same applies for how many you have read, or posted.</P> <P>The point you always fail to understand, is that we, as brawlers, either on the Monk side, or the Bruiser side, are Fighters, and has been stated many many times, that means we are Tanks.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited to remove the big words, so Sage can understand.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Genarhofen on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:52 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>anthropology...thats a big word.</P> <P>supercalifragilisticexpialidocious...thats a bigger word.</P> <P>read around more and you will get the answer to that post as well grasshopper...</P> <P>take your time. it will come to you and pretty soon you will be calling yourself gage as well.</P>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>anthropology...thats a big word.</P> <P>supercalifragilisticexpialidocious...thats a bigger word.</P> <P>read around more and you will get the answer to that post as well grasshopper...</P> <P>take your time. it will come to you and pretty soon you will be calling yourself gage as well.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nah, doubtful.  All of us are unique.  We aren't the same person because we share the same opinions.  Get over your jealousy of me Sage, its weird.<BR></DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>no, all of them just follow your lead...instead of stopping to smell the roses and seeing that roses really smell like boo boo, yeah roses really smell like boo boo...</P> <P> </P>

[Genarhof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>no, all of them just follow your lead...instead of stopping to smell the roses and seeing that roses really smell like boo boo, yeah roses really smell like boo boo...</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>that could of been quite funny, if you actually knew the words, but its poo poo, not boo boo</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

not even gonna argue that one lol... ill take your word on it