Question on taunts at 27.

[Igo]

Hello all, this is my first post but I have gleaned a large amount of quality information from here just reading in the past few months and wanted to thank you all for that. Now I have a question for you all.Background: I am in a 6 person guild of all real life friends, so we level slowly, and always play together. The core group is me (27 monk), a 27 wizard, a 25 troubadour, and a 25 templar. We are occasionally joined by a 23 illusionist and a 24 ranger, but they are irrelevant to this question.Now to the pertinent info: My highest solo taunt is the Taunting Slap (level 17.6 Increase Threat by 218-267, 8 second recast), my highest encounter taunt is Hand Clap (level 22.6 Increase Threat by 264, 30 second recast). Nevertheless, I still use Velan's Taunting Cry (level 10 skill choice Increase Threat by 180-221 to the target, and an additional 180-221 to the rest of the encounter, 8 second recast). I have been using this because casting it every 8 seconds I can build up 540-663 threat with it about to cycle again by the time I can cast my second Hand Clap. Even throughout the entire level 26, when it was a grey skill, it still worked great and I had no problems. (I believe it was grey for all of level 26, please correct me if I am wrong as that would answer my question by itself ).Up until a few days ago I have never had any problems at all controlling aggro. Then, as far as I can tell, two things happened, live patch #4 went live (I don't think this changed the effectiveness of grey skills, but correct me if I am wrong), and the second thing is our wizard leveled to 27 (his two level 27 spells don't look like they are causing the problem either). But yesterday I lost aggro three times (twice to the wizard and once to the cleric) and we had two group wipes because of it.So my question is this: What type of taunting strategy did you/would you employ? It looks like I have no choice but to give up Velan's, but I wanted to ask you guys because it still worked great last level when it was grey.Yesterday was the first time I was ever forced to waste power on group buffs during fights just for aggro reasons; it works well, but if there is a better way of getting the same aggro and not using the power and time to cast group buffs that do not need to be refreshed, I would love to hear it.Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

[Cyngii]

<DIV>A lot really depends on what classes you are grouped with and the levels of the other people in group IMO.  I don't have the time to go back and read through the Live Patch #4 notes, but they have been making mages more and more powerful... it is possible that your wizard you group with is simply doing more damage that pre patch thus making it harder for you to maintain agro.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I almost always use my group buff for generating agro when tanking (especially for encounters with multiple mobs).  My taunts are inferior (only App 4), but never have problems maintaining agro.  The way i look at it is for individual MOBs you have 3 taunts available:single target taunt, group taunt (the group taunt works well as a secondary taunt for individual mobs as well), and group buff. For grouped MOBs however you only have 2 that actually control the group: group taunt and group buff.  From my experiences if you are in a group with scouts and mages that are a few levels higher than you it can be a bare keeping agro off them relying strictly on taunts, and find that I really have to do everything i can to maintain agro.  I don't really think of this strategy as wasting power since i can chain pull without running out of power, and as a tank, first and foremost your job is to maintain agro with the tools at your disposal.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Igo]

Thanks for the response.I guess it was just too much to rely on that level 10-20 group taunt to hold out for this long.I really don't enjoy sacrificing my DPS for aggro, but you are right in that I chose a tank class to be in the thick of it and controlling what happens.Sounds like I just need to adjust my play style to accommodate an over powered taunt that I will not be given again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks for the reply.-Igota

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Igota wrote:Thanks for the response.I guess it was just too much to rely on that level 10-20 group taunt to hold out for this long.I really don't enjoy sacrificing my DPS for aggro, but you are right in that I chose a tank class to be in the thick of it and controlling what happens.Sounds like I just need to adjust my play style to accommodate an over powered taunt that I will not be given again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks for the reply.-Igota<hr></blockquote>Your groupmates also have to do their part of the bargain and not nuke/uberheal right off the bat.... with my 26 monk I have been fairly successful keeping agro off of a 32 warlock, 32 drood, and a 33 ranger.. I still get the occaisional peel, but not very often... and almost always can be attributed to one of them doing something right near the start of the pull.. but with taunts and buffs fired off right at the start its usually doable to keep agro..

[Bur]

I still use the level 10 AOE taunt at level 37 and it holds agro just fine...When you are tanking you aren't DPS anymore. Don't even hit skills other then taunt for the first half of a mobs health, just pound them.<p>Message Edited by Burem on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:51 AM</span>

[FamilyManFir]

It was mentioned a couple of times in this thread, but just to be specific:Don't forget to use your buffs as supplemental taunts. A group-buff will result in nice aggro from any mob engaged with the party, not just the current group of mobs you're fighting. Open with your Taunts (they're faster) but then buff your party; even if the buff is already running it'll help build aggro. If you lose aggro and your Taunts haven't recycled yet hit a group-buff.Please pardon me if you already know this. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wiou]

you use the level 10 AOE past 30?Something is wrong with you.

[RadricTyc]

<DIV>Yeah what FamilyManFirst said.  Opening with a taunt right off the bat is extremely important.  I have found that pulling with a ranged attack or even something like Focused Strike to be less effective overall, even if I get my area taunt off before the pyrotechnics of the mage-artillery begins.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For some reason, maybe it is the recast time, or maybe it is some issue with the hate list, but if I lead ALWAYS with a taunt, the chances I will lose aggro in a fight are reduced to practically nil.  I would have to be really slacking on the taunts to lose it.  While when I lead with the ranged attack I run into all sorts of problems.  Heck people can even still be buffing, and as long as I pull with a taunt, I won't lose control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is not your particular issue, all I can say is experiment with leading off with a solo-fighter HO that ends with the AoE taunt.  You can easily create a macro that will trigger the beginning of the HO, and from there you can finish it with the taunt manually.  The other thing you can do is entertain the upgrading of your taunts to Adept III level.  These usually upgrade fairly well, and are well worth it if you are the MT most of the time.  Too many people get attracted by the idea of upgrading their buffs, or their high damage skills, but if you are MT, your main objective is to hold agro.  So why not spend those rare metals on agro control rather than another high damage kick?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like you, I detest using group buffs to hold agro.  It burns power and is usually not needed for its buff factor.  If the buff is down however, I won't recast it until the start of the next fight, which makes good practical sense.  The only time I will definitely use it when it's not down at the time is when there are adds.  Since I usually don't want to switch targets to taunt the added encounter, I will try to use group buffs now and then to hold their attention.  This works well if the first encounter is almost dead.  If however it still has a long way to go and my hate is firmly established, I would swich to killing the added encounter so that the healing spells don't cause it to go after the priest(s).  For cleric healers this isn't as big a deal because of the way reactive heal agro works, but for wards, regens and breezes it is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last but not least, I don't totally agree that you should concentrate entirely on hate generation via taunts.  You have so many ways to build hate as a monk via damage.  Your DoTs, your area attacks, your high damage stuns and interrupts all go a long way towards establishing hate and keeping it.  If the number of mobs in the encounter is small I would say by all means use well timed high damage/stun attacks between taunts, they work very well.  If there are lots, and it's safe to AoE, then use your AoE attack.  The AoE attack builds a very good amount of hate.</DIV>

[Igo]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, just to clarify, here is how a usual kill goes.All buffs are kept up at all times because we usually are fighting in hard areas with adds (camps are boring). When I need to engage a mob I always hit it with a shiruken to lock the encounter, since the encounter has been locked I can start a solo HO with Focused Strike and finish with a taunt (solo if the pull is solo, aoe if it is a group). By the time I get back to the group I have hit it with a rage attack, and dropped a solo HO on it, I then drop a second taunt on it and start the dmg with a stun + rapid swings, then I usually have a chance to taunt for the group HO. After that it is just work in taunts when I can and use the higher dmg attacks such as Rapid Swings, Bruising Strike, Swooping Dragon and the like.All my skills are apprentice IV or better, but as was mentioned.. the only adept III’s I have are dmg based. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The thing that prompted me to bring this concern here is that (aside from when there are 4+ different encounters on us ‘cause the rogue is watching TV) I have lost agro in the group about four or five times in my 20’s, and three of those came on this past Sunday.Sounds like I am still doing things right, so maybe it was just a fluke or a string of back luck… Either way, thank you all for the replies, it’s been a help

[Wiou]

good way to do it.

[bonesbro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wiou wrote:<BR>you use the level 10 AOE past 30?<BR><BR>Something is wrong with you.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I believe he's referring to the level 10 training choice.  It has an 8s recast instead of the normal 30s recast.  Thus, while it produces less hate with each use, it produces much more hate over time.  In fact, it produces more hate over time than even the level 50 normal AE taunt, though not much.  It also has a very low power cost, making it useful at the tail end of a very long fight when you are OOP so your damage is not doing much to hold agro.</P> <P>Also, I disagree with the posters who suggest only taunting the first half of the fight.  I have had good success with hitting my taunts whenever they are up but pounding my other specials the rest of the fight.  I normally try to hold 20% power in reserve, and I like to keep the medium stun (the Shoulder Charge line) in reserve.  If I do lose agro, I'll immediately stun it which gives me time to use my taunts again.  If they still have agro, that stun time is probably long enough for Lu'Sun's Stifle to refresh which will substantially reduce the damage the wizard is taking while I'm trying to get agro back.</P>

[Wiou]

Ahh, that makes sense.Thanks for clearing it up for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>RadricTycho wrote:You can easily create a macro that will trigger the beginning of the HO, and from there you can finish it with the taunt manually<hr></blockquote>The HO starter is effectively no time to cast.. so you can actually get the starter, the trigger skill and the taunt into a macro.. one button and bam... with fast enough skills you can have a HO thats hard for others to bypass by hitting their trigger skills at the wrong time<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />