Know your role?

[GangsterFi]

Couldn't resist using the rock quote, sorry if you got the wrong idea heh <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyways, There are tons of posts out there and threads that have gone back and forth between a bit of the community on tanking and the role of a monk. However, nothing constructive has really come out of it. Having read tons of DEV posts on both the public beta forum, the private beta forum (for beta testers only) and now the release beta forum I came to the following conclusion. Now note that the manual that came with the game has already been stated as lore and roleplay type descriptions and does not really describe the class mechanically or game play wise in the actual game.I see two braches of fighter tree. Three sub classes on each side of this branch for a total of 6. I see there being an offensive and defensive version for each sub class. At the base archetype level everyone is a fighter. Then you can pick your subclass of: Warrior, Crusader, or brawler. Now each of these three subclasses branches off into offensive and defensive versions.</br><strong>The offensive versions:</strong><ul><li>Berserker<li>Shadow Knight<li>Bruiser</ul><strong>The Defensive branches are:</strong><ul><li>Guardian<li>Paladin<li>Monk</ul></br>Now each sub class of the archetype should do their job equally. The defensive branch should tank better and the offensive branch should DPS better. Now within each branch of subclass you have your advantages which adds the flavor and class diversity everyone wants.<strong>Guardians Have:</strong><ul><li>The highest amount of mitigation<li>The highest amount of HPs<li>The best taunts<li>defensive group buffs<li>can use any weapon/shield</ul></li></br><strong>Berserker</strong><ul><li>Decent mitigation<li>Offensive group buffs<li>haste buffs, both self and group<li>high DPS and pretty high HP<li>Can use any weapon/shield</ul></li></br><strong>Paladin</strong><ul><li>Decent mitigation<li>Decent amount of hp<li>lower defensive skills<li>tons of healing utility (the most HP potential out of any fighter)<li>Limited weapon choices<li>wards</ul></li></br><strong>Shadow Knight</strong><ul><li>Decent mitigation<li>Offensive group buffs<li>Offensive debuffs (slows, dots, etc)<li>high DPS and decent DPS skills<li>limited weapon choices<li>wards</ul></li></br><strong>Monk</strong><ul><li>Lowest mitigation<li>Lowest amount of HP<li>Decent DPS and decent DPS skills<li>Lowest amount of taunts and weakest taunts<li>Highest amount of avoidance<li>limited weapon choices, lowest defense (no tower shields)</ul></li></br><strong>Bruiser</strong><ul><li>Lowest mitigation<li>lowest amount of HP<li>Lowest and weakest taunts<li>Offensive group buffs<li>Best deflection buff in game (shrug off)<li>Highest DPS out of the fighter tree<li>second best avoidance in fighter tree</ul></li></br>Each of the two sides of the sub class should perform their job equally, but differently. The offensive side should be the higher DPS version of the Defensive side, which should mitigate, avoid, or heal better depending on which defensive side you chose. To me there can be balance and there can be diversity of the class you want to play, and there can still be equality among them. The defensive branch should all be able to tank the same and the offensive branch should be able to tank as well but with higher DPS. Finding balance among them will be hard, this is no easy task by far.<strong>Utility</strong>A lot of debate about utility comes into play. Some people say FD is a great utiltiy that monks carry over everyone else. SKs and brigands can FD as well, and SKs can target their FD on any party member, a more useful utility for clearing aggro in a group if you ask me. Every sub class has utility, and has group buffs and utility to make the group more effective. Arguing about utility is the most pointless thing in these debates. Having more utility is like having more personality, it gets you next to no where in the dating world. You can have all the utility in the world and your phone still won't ring on friday night. So please drop the utility debate. There is no utility one class has that is a game breaker, I am sorry it just does not exist.<strong>Mechanics of holding aggro</strong>Tanking pretty much means holding aggro or protecting your group or raid party from danger. There are many methods to tanking but it really breaks down into two main categories. Mitigation and avoidance. While Guardians have the best mitigation and the highest amount of hitpoints other classes have other things that allow them to maintain aggro as well. Paladins have lay on hands and healing abilties which can definately build aggro, heal themselves, and have the most overall HP potential. Monks have deflection which allows them to avoid most damage and gives them the abiltiy of attacking more and doing more damage since they are not hindered with huge heavy armor. They have the lowest hit points and the lowest mitigation of the fighter tree, but have higher DPS to help make up for the factors other tanks hold over their heads. So there are different methods or flavors to tanking. There is your diversity. If one class is better than the other 5 in tanking then there is no diversity, its all cookie cutter, and it doesn't make sense if there is an archetype system.So basically, this thread is mainly for a constructive conversation on how the community feels the fighter archetype should progress through all content. I invite any fighter subclass, especially guardians since some of them feel we monks are trolling their msg boards, to comment on how they see it should be balanced. Now everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they are welcome to post it here but lets keep this thread civil, please. I think there is a lot of confusion and a lot of debate on what the community actually thinks. I also think some people are skewing the general populus's view on how the fighter archetype should be balanced. So, everyone should post their opinions, their thoughts, and their input. Please try to be intellegent and try to be civil.

[Coter]

My thoughts are pretty much this.Each sub-class of the archetypes does indeed have it's own unique flavor. When tanking my ShadowKnight uses his wards to both shield himself, and shield my group members, while taunting and providing some respectable attack buffs to the group, My shadow knight also uses DoTs and taunts to control aggro, while effective, it's not condusive to grouping with an enchanter. The best group I've had with my Shadow Knight so far, Inquisitor, Fury, Assassin, Necromancer, Bruiser off-tank. All in all I'm happy with my Shadow Knight, minus a few taunt issues.When Tanking with my monk, I have just as good of a time as I do with my shadow knight, though I have to manage aggro much differently with the monk then the Shadow Knight. I have to use my group buffs more frequently, and my taunts, which doesn't leave much time for offensive skills, but hey I'm supposed to be the tank for the group right? Supposed to hold the aggro on me so the rest of the group can kill the mob(s). My best group with my monk so far? Warden, Mystic, Dirge, Wizard, Illusionist, heh, the Warden really liked the group because they could nuke a little here and there because the Mystics wards were working really well for me that night. All and all though I'm happy with my monk, the only issues I have, deflection is too unpredictable.What would I like to see happen to monks? I'd love to see our deflection working 360 degrees, I'd even accept a 50% reduction in deflection for rear attacks, as long as it work all around. I hope our DPS stays where it is, and hope they up scout DPS to compensate for their deficiency. No more nerfs for anyone ya know, because overall I think we are pretty balanced right now, as long as we can get a little more reliable deflection skill.

[Fafnir]

<DIV>I personally think of it as:</DIV> <UL> <LI>mitigation - guardian, berserker</LI> <LI>utility - paladin, sk</LI> <LI>dps - monk, bruiser</LI></UL> <DIV>And then within each of those is a more offensive and more defensive variant.  Of course, that is with EQ1 eyes.  I think this is what a lot of people think and expect to see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Given that BER can out dps monks and bruisers (in various situations, such as groups of mobs) and SKs have high dps also, the above ranking is probably less appropriate than your own.  And therein I think is a big problem with class balance - people expect to see what they saw in EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All fighters can and do tank well.  Each fighter does great in XP groups.  However, not all are currently selected to be a raid MT given choice (only 1-2, or maybe 3 ppl at most, will ever do the MT job in their guild; unless those ppl aren't online - so doesn't seem to make much sense to worry about not getting the job of as few as 30 ppl in effective raiding guilds on a server of thousands.  Better to focus on the heaps of spots for DPS or xp groups).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd like to see actual parses of guys in similar end game gear to support the "high/low/decent" assertions above.  I don't necessarily agree with your rankings.  Given the number of players at 50 now, this is not a difficult thing to do.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fafnir on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fafnir wrote:<BR> <DIV>I personally think of it as:</DIV> <UL> <LI>mitigation - guardian, berserker</LI> <LI>utility - paladin, sk</LI> <LI>dps - monk, bruiser</LI></UL> <DIV>And then within each of those is a more offensive and more defensive variant.  Of course, that is with EQ1 eyes.  I think this is what a lot of people think and expect to see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I understand that, but then wouldn't we be scouts?<BR>

[Kardagg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR>I understand that, but then wouldn't we be scouts?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think Fafnir is speaking under the assumption that all three classes are capable of playing the role of tank. Soon scouts will have their proper place in the damage chain, but once that's all over with, Monks/bruisers will probably still be the most damigificationing of the tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The class roles you suggest are those stated by various Devs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Class roles Fafnir provides are those that we presently have given the state of the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, I get invited to groups for DPS. The rare times I do tank, I make monk believers out of 5 people, but again, that is not often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My worry is that once fighter DPS is balanced, even that perception of our validity as DPS will go the way of our undeserved tanking reputation.</DIV>

[Fafnir]

<DIV>Yes, I was already taking into account that all fighters can tank (not diverting to discuss being MT on raid content).  (BTW, one of my best EQ2 mates is a ranger, and he can hardly take a hit - his "tanking" is abysmal - so I can see clearly what it means not to be a fighter).</DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kardagger wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, I get invited to groups for DPS. The rare times I do tank, I make monk believers out of 5 people, but again, that is not often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My worry is that once fighter DPS is balanced, even that perception of our validity as DPS will go the way of our undeserved tanking reputation.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I think that is very astute statement.  However, groups will still love having monks around "just in case" and given their ability to fill different roles (dps, tank, off-tank).   Remember that there is 1 slot for the MT in any group, ever.... but up to 4 spots for DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And 1 spot for a raid MT in 12/24 folks with say 8/18 spots in a groupx2/4 raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Given time, the standard of gear of all tanks will go up and up, improving mitigation for all, whereas mobs aren't improving.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fafnir on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>the problem with the different sides alludes back to an issue that i shed light on earlier in this issues progression.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there is currently nothing in place that either bypasses defensive ability or puts it at a dissadvantage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but there are a SEVERAL ways to have your dps inhibited which is our way of aggro control and supposedly the way we tank comparable to the more defensive of the same archetype.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>block parry riposte miss resist and at the end of all that - all out immunity to an attack -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>which are blanket abilities of mobs that effect offensive Fighters DPS <EM>EXCLUSIVELY</EM>.  if our dps was to outshine our defence being offensive classes - which relatively would balance the damage/time fighting/damage taken ratio were they NOT in place - and consequently making the system balanced and workable, but this is not the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>currently scouts and wizards IMO on an estimate land 85% of thier attacks w/ little or no concern about maximum output of dps. so this issue is why i have labeled it as exclusive to us -saying as though scouts have no place in front of a mob at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so if this holds true. then alleviating mob deflections would more than likely balance our damage/timefighting/damage taken ratio in most instances not involving mobs with advanced amounts of HP. (grpx3 epic mobs...) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is most openly illustrated when examining a brawlers ability to solo vs a gaurdians ability (an example that i have tested personally) - dps w/o HP is worthless- where as a fight can last 30 minutes solo for a guardian because a gaurdians defensive abilities out class the mobs abilities to proc a hit during auto attack sessions - so he can simply auto attack and not be touched by X mob or x grp of mobs - and walk away from the computer if he/she wanted to within reason - aka a grp of blue or green mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>where as the same grp for a brawler class is a DPS race to the finish usually resulting in a heal needed and 80% of power being drained on as few as 3 mobs. just as in the same respect that a heal does not have a chance to fail = but a life tap does - just as a defensive buff cannot fail - but combat arts do - just as a taunt has a VERY low resist rate on ANY mob - where as a combat art can be parried and never register as a hate generating attack and the same goes for resist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so all classes have a small disparity in this issue - or at least primarily - all the classes that are not bezerker or guardian - pals less than SK's - brawlers are on equal footing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the mobs have to be built in a way that they maximize an offensive tanks dps capability as well as a defensive tanks defensive ability. so if you were to ask me i would openly say the system they invisioned is totally broken on the issue of fighter classes and thier offensive/defensive tanking capability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you were persay to take away mob deflection abilities and lower resistances for mobs so that offensive based tanks were effective and balanced like defense is currently. it would take a reduction of the defensive type tanks damage to manage the change so that our dps ability/tanking reflection can openly be seen - wizards would get less resist- which shouldnt be too much of an issue. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but even still- this doesnt adress the issue of raid mobs who have massive amounts of HP - and the defensive tanks are put a step above - then zerkers because the tower shield carries thier excess weight- and SK's in the middle to the end  -and the brawler types at the very bottom simply due to the lack of heavy armor  - which IMO could be offset with real grp utility - monks - maximize grp defense overall through new buffs that sets them apart overtly and gives them a concurrent role as 2nd tank. and bruisers - the offensive equivalent overtly - not something that another class gets in tank form.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>fafnir - (speaking generally)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you arent invited for MT often - then where do you fit in without dps-?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>(gaurdians and zerkers and paladins and shadowknights   all have an innate advantage in heavy armor - didnt say we cant tank- just commented on what is an advantage if any)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>in a raid environment - there is VERY LOW room for mistakes or lack of the maximization of your options.</DIV> <DIV>why would you take a monk w/ lower dps than a scout - that isnt going to be MT- some may say an avoidance buff - but thats one skill where as any healer would replace you in better consistency - any scout - and any wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a healer would more than compensate for a monk spamming his avoidance buff purely by healing the damage taken in absence of an avoidance buff  - a scouts 6,000 to 10,000 dps potential - or a wizards 10,000 damage potential as well as the ability to refuel the healers in a pinch... outclasses any avoidance buff by far no?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so if a raid leader is maximizing his options - we are the danny devito on the basketball court - simply there to balance the teams - not the SHAQ or the Micheal Jordan -  who know/knew where they fit when they walked on the court- (and so did everyone else for that matter). so i ask you this... if kobe bryant zoned into the arena lol- would you still pick danny devito for your last player?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fafnir]

Sage mate, if that is the way you look at EQ2, you have a world of problems. There is room for only 1 MT. Period. Sure, you might need OTs, but just 1 MT.I'd suggest you broaden your idea of what makes a viable and interesting player.There is just as likely to be a monk/bruiser for the avoidance buff as there is 1 plate tank as MT. By your logic, 1 of each and then no other fighter classes.Funny, cos I could've sworn that about 40% of the game were fighters. Poor buggers won't get in your raid.

[Moussacoy]

<DIV>Gage Said:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand that, but then wouldn't we be scouts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>I have a ranger and I have a monk.</P> <P>The ranger lacks the ability to stand toe to toe with enemies. I can deal out the serious damage, but I have to either kite my opponent with bow shots (takes about 35-40 arrows to bring down a blue or white solo) or I have to be in a group doing backstabs (which is where the DPS scout really shines)</P> <P>Problem is if you are solo, once you backstab once... that's it! You have to go toe-to-toe. And it is under these circumstances that the Ranger is very very weak. They are as much of a specialist character as the Wizard, Templar, and Guardian.</P> <P>The MONK, however, can solo Quite well! They do their high DPS face to face, toe-to-toe. If what I am hearing is true and that no other Queynos fighter class can dish out the punishment a monk can, face to face, then I would have to say that the monk has IDEAL soloing capability.</P> <P>Everyone should know by now that Gage mostly raids. I would tend to believe that a versatile character like the monk would not shine as brightly as a specialist character like the Guardian when it come to raids. Versatility comes at a price, afterall.</P>

[CatmanPalad]

I feel the balance is lacking in how we are healed in comparison to the other fighter classes.My goal for our class and all fighters, is that any type of healer be able to keep us alive to tank for the party at approximately the same rate. If the healer takes 25% of thier power to keep the guardian or paladin alive, then it should be 25% to keep the monk or bruiser alive also.I don't feel my taunts are weaker, even though they may be in reality compared to the others, but my problem has been the healer having to spam too many heals and draw aggro on themselves, then my taunts take forever to get aggro back, if they do at all.I know each fighter class has a priest class they are aligned with and designed to heal more efficiantly that others, and that should be a bonus, not a requirement, as the game has stated many times any fighter, any priest, and scout, and mage, + 2 more and there is your group.Offensive tanks kill quicker, Defensive tanks last longer, but the balance comes from how much of a drain it is on the rest of the party to keep it going. If you kill it quicker and it only takes 25% power, or you last longer but still only require 25% power, thats the fine line i hope the devs are striving for. (25% is just a number i'm throwing around as an example, im not saying it should be 25% exactly)Until we have this balance, the class that takes less to do more will always be the most desired class for a group. And everyone else will be left wondering where they went wrong, when the game as advertised from before day 1, all subclasses will do thier jobs equally.

[Brew01]

<DIV>I have to say Sage pretty much hit the nail on the head... Which surprizes me considering how big of a DPS person he has been in the pass. What sage said is pretty much what Gage, Gangs and all the other pro tank monks have been saying for a long time now. </DIV> <DIV>With out having a comparable DPS ability why would a grp/raid invite a Brawler to join the fight? (IMO situations like this are all about networking your friends will get you in more then your ablity as a Monk) A monk will almost never get an invite as the tank and soon we won't be invited for our DPS considering all the other classes that will be outperforming the Monks DPS/Utility. So where does this lead us to be?? Seems to me the brawlers are getting a pretty raw deal. If we are in the fighter tree and SOE wants us to be tanks we should be working toward making this a reality yet there are a ton of people tring to fight SOE and convert us to being DPS. I ask you why when it has been said time and time again from Devs that MONKs will be TANKs. They arn't going to listen even if 50% of us want to be DPS, because the other 50% want what SOE intended which is Monks tanking. Since we all know our DPS is not going to be a factor here very soon we should be tring to fix our Tanking abliities this way we are on equal grounds to our Plate conterparts. Its ok to be Pro DPS but at least see that SOE doesn't care they have a guide line as far as the Fighter tree goes and DPS isn't a main role Fighters will be taking. Fighters are Primarialy Tanks 1st and DPS 2nd.</DIV>

[CatmanPalad]

5 stars for Sage for talking about NBA stars, basketball and danny devito.I can dig all that.

[Isa]

<DIV>"in a raid environment "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that is the case, then I am with my guild (who know my utility).  They better find a place for me.  And actually, you know what the best place for a monk is on a raid?  Right next to the MT.  I get a buff I can put on him that increases his avoidance by 29% (could be higher if I ever get a master version of this skill).  I get a buff that can boost his agility too.  I dunno how many times my compress has been just enough to keep him afloat (when used at the right time).  In a couple levels I get sacrifice, which will increase my utility (btw, does sacrifice take my avoidance into account, or if the person gets hit I automatically get hit?)  If push comes to shove, I can taunt off adds and tank them just to take the edge off.  I love the role of off-tank.  I played a warrior in EQ1 and was often times set as the MT.  I would get sick of it sometimes and love to let others do it, so I could play short-stop.  There is so much more thinking that goes on if you are playing the backup role.  As the MT you stand there and taunt the biggest and baddest guy on the block.  The backup gets to be more of a tactician.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have our place, and can even MT group mobs all the way up to 50, as has been stated already.  I guess I just had a different vision of the EQ2 monk in the beginning anyhow.  When I was in beta and people would ask me about the fighter tree, I always said you had your heavy tanks (plate) and then light tanks (light armor).</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Isawa wrote:<DIV>"in a raid environment "</div><DIV> </div><DIV>If that is the case, then I am with my guild (who know my utility). They better find a place for me. And actually, you know what the best place for a monk is on a raid? Right next to the MT. I get a buff I can put on him that increases his avoidance by 29% (could be higher if I ever get a master version of this skill). I get a buff that can boost his agility too. I dunno how many times my compress has been just enough to keep him afloat (when used at the right time). In a couple levels I get sacrifice, which will increase my utility (btw, does sacrifice take my avoidance into account, or if the person gets hit I automatically get hit?) If push comes to shove, I can taunt off adds and tank them just to take the edge off. I love the role of off-tank. I played a warrior in EQ1 and was often times set as the MT. I would get sick of it sometimes and love to let others do it, so I could play short-stop. There is so much more thinking that goes on if you are playing the backup role. As the MT you stand there and taunt the biggest and baddest guy on the block. The backup gets to be more of a tactician.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>We have our place, and can even MT group mobs all the way up to 50, as has been stated already. I guess I just had a different vision of the EQ2 monk in the beginning anyhow. When I was in beta and people would ask me about the fighter tree, I always said you had your heavy tanks (plate) and then light tanks (light armor).</div><hr></blockquote>Actually monks are not first choice, bruisers are. Shrug off gives 33% avoidance and 1500 AC to the target. Where transcendant vision at adept 3 gives 33% and raisers our tranquility skill. Which of the two would you rather have on a raid? Plus, I have purposly not deflection buffed our main tank in raids and it never made that huge of a difference. There is a deflection cap and I think with the right agility buffs stacked and a 800sr tower shield guardians pretty much max out their deflection/avoidance and hardly get hit to begin with.*edited for bad spelling*<p>Message Edited by GangsterFist on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:48 AM</span>

[lawm]

<DIV> Gage :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>         I have been reading your post for sometime now and for the most part I have enjoyed your observations. However, it seems you have taken a turn to try to "balance" the monk to make him less dps and a better tank .  I usually never post at all , but i can't keep quiet. It is obvious to me from reading the boards only a few really want to lose dps to gain better tanking ability. As many threads you start and as many times you argue this the majority of the people do not feel the same way you do.  I agree that maybe you should have rolled a guardian to satisfy you need to be Main Tank. I do feel Monks have issues atm we fill no defined role in a group. And as i understand it SOE has a goal of making scouts out damage fighters. This will lessen our role in a group even more.  But the bottom line is monks do not want to turn to guardians simply because certain 50 level monks do not want to reroll. Please stop trying to turn the game only into what you want. </DIV>

[Isa]

<DIV>"Actually monks are not first choice, bruisers are. Shrug off gives 33% avoidance and 1500 AC to the target. Where transcendant vision at adept 3 gives 33% and raisers our tranquility skill. Which of the two would you rather have on a raid? Plus, I have purposly not deflection buffed our main tank in raids and it never made that huge of a difference. There is a deflection cap and I think with the right agility buffs stacked and a 800sr tower shield guardians pretty much max out their deflection/avoidance and hardly get hit to begin with."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not if you are an all Qeynos based guild, like mine is currently.  Not all guilds have bruisers in them.  And even if he does not need the boost, it still gives me a boost too, so I will continue to do it.  Please also note, my guild has a level cap in place so we can face stuff the entire content of the game while it is still a challenge.  Let me tell you, our buffers still are not able to push him to that cap, and thus, I can still provide benefit with that buff.  Even if they can, then I just throw the buff on someone else, I am sure I can find someone on a raid that can use the added avoidance as a benefit.  This might change when we hit 50, or they might continue to add utility to us in that way as they keep making tweaks.  Either way, even without that one point being fully true, the other utility we add to a raid does stand pat, and is good enough reason to have a couple monks on a raid.  My main response was to someone saying we will never be a viable class on raids once the damage alignment is made, and I just feel the need to refute that idea.<BR></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>You do make a good point about a bruiser having a better buff than us though, what is with that?  It does not much follow the idea that they are the higher damage dealing class and we are the higher defensive class.  Sounds like they might have gotten those two buffs backwards IMHO <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Isawa on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:51 AM</span>

[GangsterFi]

To those who think Gage is saying we need to debunk DPS to make us better defense tanks:He never said thats what he wanted, he said if it came down to taking a hit on DPS he would to be a better tank. He is <strong><b>NOT</strong></b> trying to push a DPS debuff on the monks. Ok I have done raid material with my monk. My guild has killed pretty much every epic raid mob, and done fire and ice. I can tell you right now we have NO defined role in raids. The deflection buff is hardly needed with other buff stacks, and when I didnt show up for raids, and the bruiser in my guild didnt show up, guess what? The guardian still tanked no problems. Not to mention I don't want to be needed for a buff on raids. Are we priests or bards? We are not suppose to be needed for buffs. Our DPS is not that great compared to other fighters either. Everyone keeps saying that the Monk DPS is so uber compared to other fighters. Which is not true. SKs, bruisers, and berserkers out damage me a lot and they bring better utilities than I do to the game. Berserkers have group haste which can add to the DPS group in the raid and stack that with enchanter haste or whatever, you can effectively max out haste on all your DPS groups. SKs have really nice DoTs and slows. They can make real effective off tanks, especially since they have heavy armor. Bruisers have better buffs than us and their DPS is higher and their self heals can go off every 90 seconds. So they make better off tanks as well.Even the guardian in my guild has comparable DPS to me. He can pull off anywhere from 100 DPS to 120 DPs in a raid and I pull anywhere from 130 to 150 DPS. You think that much of a difference really holds advantage over any other fighter? You think that justifies the difference in our tanking skills?This is because we are defensive tanks. We have defensive stances and parry/deflect self buffs and defense buffs to help us avoid damage better. So really we are better off as main tanks if you compare our skills to other fighters. Offensive fighters make better off tanks.Against the raid mob in the lagoon (feerrott instance) I am pretty much completely useless. That mob was IMMUNE to all my weapons. My crushing and slashing, he was totally immune. I did a total of like 8 DPS. His AOE was magic based, so my deflection buff would have no effect. I know this is only one raid mob, but it doesn't get much better from that.I tried tanking vaz once, and well I did okay for a bit, but then I got tore a new one. He is one of the weakest raid mobs too. This game is based off an archetype system. All you monks signed up to be tanks, and defensive tanks on top of that. I, as well as Gage are for monk tanks, and monks being able to tank all content in this game. I definately do not want to go back to EQ 1 and have required and obsolete classes do you?I am sure I have totally made a lot of people angry, including some of the plate classes by advocating monks as main tanks. However, this game needs archetype balance or the whole system is flawed, and classes will be totally unbalanced? Who wants to be forced to pick the very best class to experience their role in all the content? Who wants to pick what they want to play, and then go play with no worries of what class is the best? Was that not a selling point of EQ 2?Monks, ask yourselves, do you want to play the intended role of the fighter archetype, or do you wish you were more of a scout?

[RadricTyc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lawmak wrote:<BR> <DIV> Gage :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>         I have been reading your post for sometime now and for the most part I have enjoyed your observations. However, it seems you have taken a turn to try to "balance" the monk to make him less dps and a better tank .  I usually never post at all , but i can't keep quiet. It is obvious to me from reading the boards only a few really want to lose dps to gain better tanking ability. As many threads you start and as many times you argue this the majority of the people do not feel the same way you do.  I agree that maybe you should have rolled a guardian to satisfy you need to be Main Tank. I do feel Monks have issues atm we fill no defined role in a group. And as i understand it SOE has a goal of making scouts out damage fighters. This will lessen our role in a group even more.  But the bottom line is monks do not want to turn to guardians simply because certain 50 level monks do not want to reroll. Please stop trying to turn the game only into what you want. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I am trying to understand this post but its logic escapes me.  On the one hand you are saying that only Gage wants the monks to trade a little DPS for better tanking, while the rest of us want to keep our DPS roles.  On the other hand you are saying that our role as DPS in groups is eroding and that we will eventually have none.  And finally you claim that by making this trade-off to bring us back to being tanks again we will be turning ourselves into Guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sorry man, but is your view of tanking so narrow that you cannot seperate the word Guardian or the word Warrior from the concept of Tank?  If a monk were ever to become a tank would he, in your eyes, be a Guardian?  This I think is a real problem in this community.  On the one hand every fighter wants to be a tank, on the other hand we don't want every fighter being a Guardian.  And as arguments rage over this, people keep saying that turning a class other than guardian into a better tank is ruining the flavor of the game because in the end we will all be like Guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The flavor in my mind comes not from the defensive ability or offensive abilities of the fighter classes.  It comes from the nature of the skills.  Just because the two could tank about the same does not make them look or act the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly believe that the difference in offense and defense abilities between fighters should be small.  As long as the difference in damge taking and damage dealing is small a fighter sub-class will never stray too far from its intended role, the role of its archetype, the role of TANK.</DIV>

[Ender]

I personally believe all fighters ought to be able to tank. The 'defensive' subclasses should be tanking better than the 'offensive' subclasses.I believe for defensive tanking: monk, guardian, and paladin should be on a somewhat equal footing. Right now, I think paladin and guardians are very much balanced at the moment. There is nothing that paladins can't tank right now, same as guardians. I'm not sure about monks though since I don't play the monk class.From what I've experienced in the game, however, monks seems to be doing very well tanking. In my raid group, we swap between Monk, Guardian, and Paladin main tanking depending who is logged on at the moment. We have no preferences. We just take whatever class that can get the job done. All three are viable main tank options.<p>Message Edited by EnderMX on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>EnderMX wrote:I personally believe all fighters ought to be able to tank. The 'defensive' subclasses should be tanking better than the 'offensive' subclasses.I believe for defensive tanking: monk, guardian, and paladin should be on a somewhat equal footing. Right now, I think paladin and guardians are very much balanced at the moment. There is nothing that paladins can't tank right now, same as guardians. I'm not sure about monks though since I don't play the monk class.From what I've experienced in the game, however, monks seems to be doing very well tanking. In my raid group, we swap between Monk, Guardian, and Paladin main tanking depending who is logged on at the moment. We have no preferences. We just take whatever class that can get the job done. All three are viable main tank options.<p>Message Edited by EnderMX on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Can you extrapolate on some of the raid material your guildmate monk has tanked? Thanks,GF

[Isa]

<DIV>"Everyone keeps saying that the Monk DPS is so uber compared to other fighters."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually, not everyone is saying that.  What they are saying is, we do not want to give up even more offense.  I tend to agree with that.  I do not want to give up more offense.  The other thing that bothers me, is, I do not think the discrepancy is quite as profound as some seem to believe.  You will see me in other threads argue for more defense.  I said we should have our "built in" shield upgrade and that we should get a spell resistant rune.  Because, IMHO, that would put us pretty close.  It would also still give us a divergent way of mitigating damage over just pure ac.  So, up our deflection a little and give us spell mitigation and I think we will be right on the mark.  I do not think either of these moves would be drastic, but would give us just enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think we do offer utility still.  While you do not like that, some of us do.  I do not see a completely wrong side here.  This is a grey argument.  I think all would agree we need a bump, I think what we dissagree on is how much and what it should cost us to get.  To me it is silly for a monk to be arguing for getting less of anything.  Argue to get more and let the developers decide if we need to be nerfed anyplace to compensate, they have proven they are good at the "n" word.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On one of your other points, there should never be a mob that we cannot hit at all.  If there is, then they need to make an adjustment to the mob, not us.  Heck, that is especially true if you are using your offensive discapline.  If anything, we should hit mobs more consistently than other people of our level (since our weapon skills are raised).  There is no doubt they still need to tweak some raid content mobs, I would hope it is not by design that a monk or any class for that matter is not capable of doing damage to a mob at all...</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

I think our DPS is fine since its not monumental over any other fighter arcehtype. The raid mob in question is a game mechanic problem. I do not think cestii count as slashing mechanically in the game. The mob we fought was immune to crush so I used cestii and it was immune to that as well. However, the cestii description says its a fist weapon, so I think its a coding error on our weapons.I have /bug reported it, and am waiting for devs to address it.

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>gangster if you are asking me if i want to me more geared towards i fighter or a scout under the conditions that i would have to compete with... </DIV> <DIV>- more AC</DIV> <DIV>- more HP</DIV> <DIV>- More innate defense</DIV> <DIV>- more taunts</DIV> <DIV>- more mitigation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(all things that we know to be constant and not changing)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for 1 spot in raid or group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as opposed to 4 (healer required)</DIV> <DIV>or 23 in "a raid situation"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it can be said that 1% of the gaurdians on a given server will ever be MT of the biggest raid mobs in game if it were a one shot deal and not raid farming for loot... right? if once you killed it with a group you could never go back and do it again. 1% of guardians would be able to experience the thrill of MT'ing derather - or veneker etc. now given that we fall behind them (and a few others in this category of fighters - when would your turn to tank roll up? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>relatively speaking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ask yourself the same question with that being laid out - monk or bruiser...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[GangsterFi]

I am trying to figure out our defining role sage. Our dps is not the best, nor is it usually the highest on the fighter tree. Our dps is not even that much greater than a guardians overall, especially in a raid fight.So what is our role?DPS?Utility?Tank?As of now, we don't have any end game role and our class has been reduced to a lame dps class. I can go afk when we raid while inthe fight. The MT positions the mob, and i can hit auto attack and go eat a cheese sandwhich while my toon mindlessly punches away at X_raidmob. To me, this is lame, I want a challenge, I want to make a difference, I want my actions to count and if I make bad decisions with my class I should pay for it in the fight. As of now, I just DPS and then occasionally try to taunt the raid mob off the main tank when I get extremely bored. Which hardly ever works. Our utilities are useless in raids, and I like I said before the more utility you have its like the more personality you have, which does nothing for you. You still have to be attractive in one way or another for people to want to be with you, and desire you. Our utilities in the 40+ game are useless on a raid level.So, what are monks to do in the end game? At one point all of you monks will reach that part of the game. You will all eventually get level 50 and start doing raid content. It may seems ok now at your current level but once you hit 50 the game lacks anyting for you to be a part of and make a difference. You see what I am getting at? Why would anyone want to play a monk in end game content? Are we designed to be group exp content friendly and nothing else?

[Ender]

Hey Gage,Just to clarify, monks can tank but I don't think they can tank as well as paladins or guardians right now. I hope things change for the monk class in terms of either increased deflection or mitigation so that they can main tank on par with the other two 'defensive' fighters.However, with enough healing, any tank can get the job done. It's been done before.The thing with Paladins is that they can self-heal which draws not only more aggro but will also boost the HP capacity of the Paladin. Our Paladin simply spams heals on himself (5 second recast time) and just stood there swinging his weapon. His heals alone makes up a quarter of a million HP over the 50 minutes we spent fighting Darathar. Furthermore, in most raids, it is the instant heals that count the most - not so much the reactives, wards, or regens although they are good too. Also, Paladin instant heals are only slightly less efficient(HP healed/mana ratio) than most priest instant heals.Now, I think Monks also have heals. I don't know the heal amounts or the recast timer but I have seen the monk main tank use it now and then. I will come up with some parsers for you tonight when we're doing some full raids.Lastly, the role of a monk is to main tank. Before, I thought monks are just DPS and believed that guardians are the only "real" tank out there. Now that I've played this game alot more, I believe monks can be very good main tanks as well. Monks just need a slight boost to reach that potential.<p>Message Edited by EnderMX on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 AM</span>

[GangsterFi]

Ender-heal our last line of the mend ability heals about 10~15% of the targets total HP and has a 300 second recast timer. It can be cast on us, or anyone in the party.

[Gaige]

<DIV>Thanks Ender.  If you guys do some x3 and x4 and switch out the Monk for the Pally and are able to parse it'd be cool if you can post the results or pm me to get them from you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also the MT group setup with a monk MTing would be particulary interesting to me.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

ive done some x2 content and my group is usually as follows50 monk50 troub50 warden 50 mystic50 conj 50 dirgeor50 monk50 bruiser50 troub50 warden50 templar50 dirge (or conj)I have succesfully tanked some x2 content that way. No idea if that helps or not but it worked for me.

[Wiou]

<DIV>Want to know what's interesting, with adept 3 - master 1 of our mend at level 50, we get to the LoH quality area and possibly even pass it. At level 45-50 lay on hands for paladins only heals around 900. And of course with a TON longer re-use.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>yeah gangster -- </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i know the ins and outs very well lol- i have read almost every post on every forum from everyone interested in the issue at hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but yeah - i too have often said - i dont care if we dps or if we tank - but i want to do either one WELL..not kinda alright as we do now and will moreso later= </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i seemed like an advocate for dps because i always insisted that it was the more tangible option given what our class already has within it. which would make us designated off tank by giving us more dps and group based utility, where as tanking would take us getting more taunts -= deflection perfected - 360 degree avoidance capability</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>..... things that i know for a fact with my knowledge of computer programming and coding - is alot harder to do within the system that is being used as of now.  there are no mobs with 360 degree evasion - its either immune or its not - so this would take as we have called it an ""<U>overhaul</U>""  of our class and its functions to accomodate the job of MT in ANY given situation and the dps nerfage would be standard with that package.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so that means what? they would have to </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>recode the brawler class specifically</DIV> <DIV>take away several combat arts and replace them with aggro holding techniques and skills</DIV> <DIV>still provide some sort of mitigation increase to manage spikes of damage when we get a bad roll or <STRONG>5.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>as opposed to </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>boosting combat arts </DIV> <DIV>giving 1 or 2 additional group utility buffs that are worthy to a raid group or static pick up group</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sounds alot simpler to me....whether or not it fit into anyones goals or personal ambitions i dont know = </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but its what sounded better to me when this argument started </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>cause personally - i tank well- i can dps on par with the scouts (sometimes) - and im at my best when playing body guard - dpsing - assisting the main tank - pulling mobs off casters - and doing dps yet again all at once... so my expression for dps was a result of the above equation = which would make us the perfect 2nd tank in groups... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>put plainly if they gave us some REALLY significant skill like monks having a Grp <EM>DEFENSIVE</EM> (edit)  buffs that kept defense at optimum levels for the duration of a fight in buff form - say max mitigation and defensive registration on hits persay - monks being the more defensive would without a doubt have a spot in raids alongside thier dps and mediocre tanking ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>same for bruisers - give a grp buff ability that ensures maximum melee damage output of a group = so if you are duel weilding - all your attacks hit in the upper arche of the weapons capability as opposed to wacking a raid mob with 80k HP for 30dmg per attack when the weapon gives a maximum attack of at least 60-70dmg at a time... along side the avoidance already present in buff form ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>that would ensure monks and bruisers a place in raids - keep scouts ahead when using combat arts in comparison to our own - leave us with the tanking ability we have now - which is enough to manage an add or so - and makes us the difinitive off tank candidate w/o question and neccessary in the same breath.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not saying this should happen - and no i wont be dissapointed if things dont play out this way - just presenting the logic behind my stand in the first place.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <SPAN class=date_text>03-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:33 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 PM</span>

[Jewishman]

<DIV>I've tanked everything from the seraph of the stags (couldnt hit me lol), to knubed, alanghria, acri etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tend to get hit quite hard, even while fully raid buffed.  Yet I really see no way of improving my tanking.. I have all adept1's or better... great gear.. I know how to play the class..[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], I would wager my unbuffed AC is probably in the top 2% of 50 monks... and I still get pwnt by anything over groupx2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldn't stand a chance vs anything groupx4......I don't even want to try (lol :smileysad: ) Mebbe I could tank the angler... dunno... </DIV><p>Message Edited by Jewishman on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

[GangsterFi]

My defense is self buffed @ 270, which means I fight at a defensive level of approx 54ish. After I get all my upgraded skills I should have a self buffed defense of 280+, and if any other class and buff up my defense and get it near 300, I should be a very good MT b/c of my super high avoidance with a high defense skill.However, I just need a few more rubys to test this out heh <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[lawm]

<DIV>     I guess i didnt express my point very well at all. I wont sink to insulting anyone even if others try to.  But i have a question maybe this will bring my point out a little better . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If all fighters end up tanking about the same and all fighters end up doing about the same damage Then arent we all the same with different costumes and just a couple utilities difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I very much agree with Gangster. Monks have no defined role in a group we do need something to make groups care to have us. I kinda liked the idea of a few heals or wards ( even though we would be pally like) I dont have the answers.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point was to just please do not try to get our dps reduce to be more like other tanks. Thats not why most of us made monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh by the way those posting under 2 different names we know who you are ))</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>                                                                         <FONT face=Garamond>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana>ive been saying this for about 3 weeks now but nobody seems to listen - more than likely they will over look your point again as well...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana>the same but different but similar so they dont have to work hard on each individual ability <STRONG>FOR EACH INDVIDUAL CLASS</STRONG> as well as keep complaints to a minimum sounds like the purpose of the archetype system to me..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana>i just posted in another forum that a kick that stifles is still a kick that stifles no matter if you call it guardian uber rush  or Diplans stifling roundhouse - </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana>light armor with mitigation is still heavy armor - heavy armor with mitigation is still light armor...</FONT></DIV> <DIV>(hold on let me look at that again???)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lol  - riiiiiiigggghhhhhht.... ive said 2 things once and ill say one thing twice again </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if the game is built like that which our class will prove - i will move on to something where it isnt a marketing scheme to keep the game simple enough so that they can add crap dungeons all over the place to keep you time sinking away without any real fun factor. (anyone even take time to look at all the armor? its all the same but different but similar as well)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and i cant remeber the second thing so i will edit this later</DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:15 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>No, we do more damage than guardians, they mitigate better than us.  We have deflection, pallys have heals/wards.  Etc and so on.  It has nothing to do with the primary role of all of us, which is tanking.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>no amount of damage matters if you are dead - id rather be alive and take 3 hrs to kill a mosquito than be dead and in heaven talking about my UBER ATTACK abilites that got parried and blocked into oblivion to the MT gods</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and oh yeah  - paladins get shields too (if they so choose to use them which also provides a block skill)</DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:18 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>no amount of damage matters if you are dead - id rather be alive and take 3 hrs to kill a mosquito than be dead and in heaven talking about my UBER ATTACK abilites that got parried and blocked into oblivion to the MT gods</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>and oh yeah  - paladins get shields too (if they so choose to use them which also provides a block skill)</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>For once, we agree.<BR>

[Kardagg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lawmak wrote:<BR> <DIV> Monks have no defined role in a group we do need something to make groups care to have us. I kinda liked the idea of a few heals or wards ( even though we would be pally like) I dont have the answers.  </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I kind of like the idea of using stuns to aleviate mitigation needs. In EQLive pallys make up for their comparative squishieness via their stun abilities.  They are the mainstay of their agro control and help keep them standing. If we had a shorter refresh on our stuns, I think that would close up the gap tremendously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I tank I continually spam my stuns/interrupts along with my taunts. With power to spare I will only then use my damage attacks, as I feel they are far less eficient from the front, I'd rather not wast my power on anything that doesn't directly help keep me standing. If we had an aditional, seperate line of short duration stuns (1-3 seconds) I'm sure we would be much better off at least on single mob fights. With this we can be the masters at tanking single mob encounters and casters. While that may not be true equality, it's an ability which sets us apart from the norm.</DIV>

[Kardagg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lawmak wrote: <DIV>Monks have no defined role in a group we do need something to make groups care to have us. I kinda liked the idea of a few heals or wards ( even though we would be pally like) I dont have the answers.  </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What if we had an extra line of stuns. If a mob cannot attack, we can not be one rounded. A 1-3 second stun would help us a lot against casters and single mob encounters, no? There's differentiation for you. No one has their toes stepped on, Guardians can keep their ac, Pallys can keep their heals, while we mitigate in other ways. Everybody wins.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>i can vouch for bruisers tanking a caster mob - if its pre planned i can make it so that a caster mob doesnt get one spell off at all- given that hes not ^^^x3 epic or something crazy like that- ur average mobs 1 UP 2 UP etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>slurred insult - taunt that interrupts the enemy </DIV> <DIV>thundering fist - interrupts  target from attacking </DIV> <DIV>then the crash line which interrupts the target </DIV> <DIV>then slurred insult again - to interrupt target </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>then fear combo - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>jeer type spell - </DIV> <DIV>stun spell </DIV> <DIV>sucker punch type</DIV> <DIV>one hundred hand slap  (which breaks the fear)</DIV> <DIV>slurred insult and keep it rolling with whats availbable  - but hopefully by then the mob is dead for crying out loud.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(oh yeah but what happens when your stun ATTACK gets parried block or PLEASE NOT riposted????- it doesnt register and you get stringed for 4 attacks of 1800+ dmg - you are in red HP - with maybe a look to knock you out cold - you have wasted power trying to do it above all else - )</DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:35 PM</span>

[Wiou]

Or shut your mouth.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wiou wrote:<BR>Or shut your mouth.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>??<BR>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>novell - sorry i didnt think of it first - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but then again i stopped watching wrestling around the same time that the undertaker and Kane found out they were brothers LOL - man thats horrible  - a soap opera about big sweaty men tussling over each other for a belt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileysad: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im a guiding light fan myself - man that Kendal is hot</DIV>

[Wiou]

<blockquote><hr>GangsterFist wrote:Know your role?<hr></blockquote>