Open Wounds/Rampage/etc Has Been Nerfed(?) Discuss here.

[Thor Of Hal]

<div></div><div><em>note: For sake of lazyness and for being sad, i will call the Open Wounds/Rampage/Weapon Aegis etc Combo <strong>'Rambo'</strong></em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>I believe that Berserkers have had another Stealth nerf in terms of the 'rambo' setup and weapon procs, yet again our dps has been cut down without any clear counter balancing ability.</div><div> </div><div>I believe 'Rambo' has been nerfed for several reasons detailed below;</div><div> </div><div>1.  Weapon Procs will now only proc ONCE per mob per spell, Meaning that Rambo will trigger procs at a greatly reduced rate undermings the dps it performs and one its major benefits! <em>(if i read the update notes correctly)</em></div><p>2. Open Wounds appears to affect fewer mobs, there has been a post suggesting that O/W only affects 4 mobs now! Can people Varify this? - if not i will myself.</p><p>3.  Generally i feel that the entire set up appears to do less damage (NOTE: i say <em>Appears</em> as i have not had the time to test it out fully)</p><p>Please pass your views on this, have you noticed a reduction on its dps ability?</p><p>The <strong>reason</strong> for me highlighting this is that being able to deal high amounts of group DPS in combination with our heavy tanking ability means we are the best, if not one of the best, group tanks in the game.  Therefore, 'Rambo' (and any other group damage spell) is part of the fundamental pillars that defines our class type.  ANY nerf to this fundamental ability to deal large amouts of group damage, and maintain agro through that, will <strong>severly undermine</strong> the Berserkers roll in the game<em> ihmo</em>.</p><p><strong>Weapon Procs;</strong>  I believe the new rules are that the weapon will only proc once per spell used/auto attack per mob.  So that say the Sceaming Mace has 5% to proc,  If you used frenzied blows and it proced, it would not proc again with that spell.  This again i think was one of the great assets to Berserkers;  The procs of weapons adding to our dps.  And as i said above this is critical to our class's ability to do Large damage is short amouts of time ( has we have no heals, and no ability to increase our health pool w/ buffs as Guardians do.)</p><p>Some may say this is balanced by our AA trait line, but lets not forget Guardians get an identical trait line!</p><p>I understand that the nerfing of procs affects all classes, but i must say that, SoE has to be extremely cautious when it comes to altering CORE abilitys like the 'Rambo' setup.</p><p><NOTE: I consider this thread not a 'whinning' thread but of great concern to ALL serious Berserkers strategically></p><p>Vladnor The Berserk</p><p>lvl 60 Berserker, 40 Armorer</p><p>The odyessy</p><p>Butcherblock</p><p>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:05 AM</span></p>

[Aonach]

<div>Well I know this much. I'm struggling way more to hold agro on single and group mobs than I did before KoS patch. Wizzies unloading group damage on a group of mobs is now pulling one, some or all of them off of me. Before the patch mobs stuck to me like velcro, whether they were groups or singles.</div><div> </div><div>It's all a little dissapointing. I know other classes are getting nerfed etc all I ask is that SoE document what they are doing fully so we can alter and adapt our play style. It's nuts that after 60 levels we are having to try and second guess what our skills and fighting techniques are again. SoE put it on the boards so we can see whats going on!</div>

[Huna]

<div>I'm pretty sure Open wounds never said it would only hit 4 mobs, and I'm positive it wasn't ever working like that.  If it does say it now, then it is absolutely a nerf, and I for one won't be too happy about it.</div>

[Keowrath]

I dinged 58 last sunday, had previously spent ALL my money on Open Wounds Master I. When I got the level, I scribed the book and OMG! My Zerker became a fully fledged ZERKER!Now, only a few days later I hear that OW has been nerfed to crap (I did get to try it out briefly during a short time of server up-age) I was only fighting green mobs but I did notice there and then that something was off...I've been upset in the past with combat changes but as with most berserkers, I re-learnt my class and have had much fun with it but these "STEALTH" nerfs are rediculous. Why can't they explain in the update notes that they are changing a skill? As a few people have said they've got themselves into severe trouble, sometimes death because they were expecting their skills to function the way they always have. Would it be too much to ask to get the facts in the update notes?I don't want to be a whiner, I started going down that route after LU13 but once I re-learnt my class I found out everything wasn't just doom and gloom for us. I'm bitter because I've just spent 10 and a half plat on a book that now seems like a waste =/Instead of nerfing the crap out of your players when an expansion comes out, if you want to make the game harder FINE, just do it by upping the new mobs and zones, why must you make the players worse. This is bound to cause unrest, just look at the forums here.Word of the week I believe is "dissapointed"... Not good when the newest expansion has only just been released.Keowrath Bladestorm.<div></div>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><div>They didnt change a skill per say.  They changed the way procs work, now all multi attack CA's will only have a change to proc once.  I am not sure if this chance to proc is only checked once on the first hit of a multi attack or is checked on any of the hits.  Unfortunately I have a feeling its the former case and not the latter.</div>

[Keowrath]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm sure OW hit more than 4 enemies, and was completely AoE rather than front facing cone... I didn't think the proc change had anything to do with open wounds seeing as it says (or said) 100% chance to hit AoE that's not a proc... Or is it?Keowrath Bladestorm.<div></div>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><div>You'll have to forgive me I misunderstood the ability was thinking it was a proc.  Very much a new zerker.</div>

[davian9]

<div></div><p>I dont play a zerker my self but I found comment comming up several times on this thread that interested me.  Several posters commented on the recent ninja "changes/fixes/nerfs".  I just wanted to say (being an assassin) that in both LU 19 and LU 20 I have noticed ALOT of ninja changes to my class (some good , some bad).</p><p>One of the major things I look for in the update notes is if any of my skills or spells are changing.  SOE use to be pretty good about listing changes but they seem to have droped the ball quite a bit lately.  How the heck can they not mention your OW change under beserker changes.</p><p>Not listing changes in the LU notes makes players wonder if the cahnges are intended or if they are a bug.   </p>

[Teeuff]

<div>I have noticed OW does have a frontal arc now.  I had a group of 3 on me last night and one was slightly to my left and he never got hit.  I used to hit everything.  Also alot more blocks/misses etc now.</div>

[Pegesus]

OW always had a frontal arc in its description however now the frontal arch is truly a front arch.  Its jsut postioning i was hitting over 6 mobs at once with it.  I also am still able to pull aggro back from any class with using "Rambo"<div></div>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<div></div><p>I think the biggest change with the aggro, is our taunting defense line.</p><p>when we AOE, and using things like rampage, and open wounds, we used to be able to proc our taunting defense proc onto each of the mobs we hit.  NOT ANYMORE!</p><p>now the chance to proc, is only on the first target hit with each of those attacks.  Thats whats causing us to have difficulty keeping aggro on all the mobs in a group.</p><p> </p><p>-Erick</p>

[cr0wangel]

Please post your feedback here, on the Test Feedback:<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=49380">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=49380</a><div></div>

[infernus006]

<i>"we used to be able to proc our taunting defense proc onto each of the mobs we hit"</i>I'm not sure what you're thinking.  Taunting Defense is a reactive proc and it always has been, meaning that it only goes off from taking hits, not making them.<div></div>

[Styk]

<div>Then it must have been changed because taunting defense was 20% chance to proc UPON SUCCESSFUL ATTACK PRE LU 20</div>

[YellowKi]

<div>I played around with this quite a bit last night. There was a change, but I don't think it's quite as devastating as some people are making it out to be. There has been some effect, sure, but the Rambo combination was still laying waste last night when I was soloing.</div><div> </div><div>I will probably be in the minority here, but I think as a tank class, our DPS was probably a little overpowered. I've got a friend who is a 60th level Guardian. I was at the point where I could tank about as well as he could, but I could also out-DPS him by a mile AND solo much more effectively. Is that really fair? We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want to be able to tank as well as a guardian, but we want our killer DPS as well.</div><div> </div><div>I think in the greater scheme of things, the change was relatively minor and understandable. This change cuts across the board, all classes. It's not as if we were being singled out. We've lost a few proc chances. Sorry, but I don't buy the idea that a handful of small *chances* to proc (not guaranteed procs) from three combat arts was the difference between us being able to effectively tank and play our class well and being completely worthless. I just don't buy it.</div><div> </div>

[infernus006]

<i>"Then it must have been changed because taunting defense was 20% chance to proc UPON SUCCESSFUL ATTACK PRE LU 20"</i>What planet are you from?  Taunting Defense is our T6 version of HTL (Hold The Line).  Guardians get a similar one that doen't proc any damage it only procs hate but it has a higher chance to proc than ours and it procs off getting hit, not doing damage, the same as ours.  They are always complaining about how having higher avoidance makes it proc less because higher avoidance makes you take less hits and you have to be taking hits for it to proc.  This is the way that spell line has always been, even way back before LU13.  Probably from the initial launch of the game even.<div></div>

[Teeuff]

<div>Not to get too far off topic but did the snare on taunting def get removed?</div><div> </div>

[infernus006]

^ That got removed in LU19.  It wasn't documented either.  Not that I am complaining about it but I still wonder why they never said anything about it.<div></div>

[Rashen]

<div></div>Ya i noticed the snare is gone too and love it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   I am pretty sure that open wounds has always been frontal.  Infact I remember after first getting o/w that it didn't hit all mobs around me and I always target the middle mob of the pack so that o/w will hit most if not all of them.

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>OW says it only effects mobs in the frontal arc when you examine it but I know for a fact that before LU20 that was not actually the case.  It would make you hit everything around you with every attack.  I guess they finally "fixed" it.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But on the other hand it's really not so bad, we kind of need the mobs to be in front of us anyway to avoid more of their attacks and for our barrage attack to work too.  It's not really a good idea to let a bunch of mobs be hitting you from behind, you will get hurt a lot more that way.  This will just force us to pay more attention to the positions of the mobs, as we should be doing anyway.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:09 PM</span></p>

[Tudd]

Taunting Defense 20% chance to proc when getting hit. Has always been that way. Nothing has changed.Open Wounds has always had a limit to the amount of mobs it can hit. That limit is 4 mobs. That has not changed. Frontal arc is now required, as it was supposed to be from Day 1. It's just behaving as it was intended now.Chance to proc on a CA was modified so it wasn't based on on the weapon's delay. Either it uses a different formula or the existing formula was changed to use a fixed delay value if the attack is CA based. Will take some time to parse to figure out which.The proc change was very much needed, IMO. High delay weapons had a huge advantage in proc rate, in addition to the inherent advantage of just being able to fit more CA's in between swings. And being able to proc multiple times on the same swing exacerbated the problem.Although this will reduce DPS, the present proc rules are much more sane and relegate procs back to the status they should have been in the first place, a small DPS boost and not a major source.<div></div>

[RufusDeMar]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tuddar wrote:The proc change was very much needed, IMO. High delay weapons had a huge advantage in proc rate, in addition to the inherent advantage of just being able to fit more CA's in between swings. And being able to proc multiple times on the same swing exacerbated the problem.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Not to be offtopic..but I've got to ask...</p><p>What's that going to do to the DW/2H debate?</p><p> </p>

[-Aonein-]

<div><div><div><hr></div><div>Aeralik wrote:</div><div> </div><div>Unbridled Fury is a proc buff so it doesnt use its own casting time for the calculation.  If it triggers off a combat art then it will use that combat art's casting time.  If it triggers from auto attack then it uses the weapon's delay.So in other words the proc rate is calculated using whatever event actually triggered the proc not the buffs casting time. </div><p>Message Edited by Aeralik on <span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">02-17-2006</font></span><span class="time_text">04:06 PM</span></p><p></p><div>Chris KozakProgrammer, Everquest II</div></div><p></p><hr><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=48837#M48837">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=48837#M48837</a></p><p>CA's chance to proc a buff or applied effect are calculated off their casting timers, when it comes to weapon delay procing CA Buffs or applied effects, its the same as its always been.</p><p>Dont know what the changes are they have made to very slow 2 hand weapons seeing they lowered there chances to proc, id also like to know what SoE classes as a very slow 2 hand weapon, id be guessing here and say anything over 3 second delay.</p></div>

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>RufusDeMarko wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tuddar wrote:The proc change was very much needed, IMO. High delay weapons had a huge advantage in proc rate, in addition to the inherent advantage of just being able to fit more CA's in between swings. And being able to proc multiple times on the same swing exacerbated the problem.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Not to be offtopic..but I've got to ask...</p><p>What's that going to do to the DW/2H debate?</p><hr></blockquote>It will bring 2H and DW closer in damage output, since procs initiated by CA's use the CA's delay for determination of the proc rate, uncoupling it from the weapon's delay and thereby leveling the playing field. A 1.2 delay weapon has the same chance to proc as a 3.8 delay weapon if the swing is initiated by a CA, as long as the proc % is the same on both weapons.High delay (3+ seconds) 2H weapons will still have an advantage technically because it's easier to fit CA's in between swings and auto-attack swings still calculate the proc rate off the weapon's delay. However, 2H weapons will no longer enjoy the sizeable lead they held before, since a large part of that advantage was the fact that procs on CA's used to use the weapons delay.Personally, I don't know why they just didn't rework the proc formula and done away with delay totally. Just a flat percentage chance to proc. Had they done so, then the actual proc rate would never change from that shown on the weapon, regardless of whether the attack was auto-attack or CA based, and having haste would have no impact on the proc rate. As it stands now, the majority of people have no idea that the actual proc rate doesn't match what is on their weapon. Which is totally nonsensical. But then, so many of the stats in EQ2 are that way. I could rant on Attack Rating all day.</span><div></div>

[Thor Of Hal]

<div></div><p>Okay Sorry i have not posted here much, have been busy in RL and been dieing alot in KoS  (lol because i been goin to very very dangerous places to get AA discovery xp <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</p><p> </p><p>Imo  Rampage is fine, Infact, i think they maaay have actually done a silent denerf (mini-woot), it did devasting damage to lvl 51 heroics otw to kill Darathar today, and in a wider are then before. </p><p>However(!!) Open wounds has been pwned by a silent nerf.  Im not sure if it had the '4 mobs' on before, i really dont think it did. Now it is effectivess is borderline worthless.  Its gone from an admitedly slight overpowered 360 all mob in certain range attack --> frontal only ---> 4 mobs only.   I think Frontal Mobs only is fair enough, but i think 4 mobs only, makes the spell of limited use.  It was a good CC (crowd control) CA but alas, now tis a good small encounter control. </p><p>And lets remeber, Juggernaut will be given to us at 65.  And as earlier discussions have indicated/concluded (if possible in forums), that Juggernaut has the potential to make you very familar with the taste of dust.   Open Wounds COULD have been its saving grace (to a certain degree anyhow), as that Crit Chance would have struck all mobs in at least ur frontal arc.  But nay, instead its to 4 mobs.  </p><p>And will our Crit Chances stack?  i.e. If we went down the AA str branch (think its str) would the crit chance improvement of say 20% from that add to 40% or so from Juggernaut.  Consequently, resulting in loads of BIG DAMMAGE numbers (crits) comin up?  And does 100% crit chance =  Every combat art/autoattck = BIG DAMAGE numbers??    If so, its my opinion that Juggernaut would indeed by a 'and unstoppable, inexorable force of destruction' as the definition stats its meaning.</p><p>Overall.   I disagree with Open Wounds hitting 4mobs only  + in ur FRONTAL arc ONLY!    <-- Nuked nerf imo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And The Decrease in the proc rate i believe is incredable painful!  Its one of the things i LOVED bout my zerker.</p><p> </p><p>Vladnor The Berserk</p>

[R2Chie]

i thought it had been nerfed badly, but using parser recently named mobs (HEROIC!!) showing up with the likes of 280k HP makes me think that it hasnt, dps parser still having me roughly 2nd to top on the list depending on group when i use all 3 combined (weapon aegis plus the normal 2).So im gearing more towards the fact that we dont do that much less damage, but the amount of damage that has to be done to kill mobs is just ALOT more for some reason.(for your info it was the kettleleader from nest instance i clocked up at 280k HP, i havent done testing anywhere else yet) but those sort of hit points seem a tad... Much?<div></div>

[c00nd]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>R2Chief2 wrote:i thought it had been nerfed badly, but using parser recently named mobs (HEROIC!!) showing up with the likes of 280k HP makes me think that it hasnt, dps parser still having me roughly 2nd to top on the list depending on group when i use all 3 combined (weapon aegis plus the normal 2).So im gearing more towards the fact that we dont do that much less damage, but the amount of damage that has to be done to kill mobs is just ALOT more for some reason.(for your info it was the kettleleader from nest instance i clocked up at 280k HP, i havent done testing anywhere else yet) but those sort of hit points seem a tad... Much?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=kingdomofsky&message.id=8870#M8870">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=kingdomofsky&message.id=8870#M8870</a></p><p>It's a bug.</p><p>They have more hitpoints and are hitting harder<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>