Casual Player - Should I reroll from a Paladin

[Celedon Silvertree]

Hi. I am new to this forum. I have been experimenting with a few other classes lately since I have noticed my 41 paladin feels increasingly less capable when I group with higher DPS tank classes that seem to handle my tanking job nearly as well. (And with me warding and healing them, better than I would have.) I guess my perception is that the gap between the damage I can deal and what other tanks can deal is huge compared to our relative tanking abilties. In a full group or raid I guess that is fine.. tanks tank and don't worry about DPS. But I am a casual player and I solo or play in small groups at best. Once a week I typically join a 5-6 person group, and that;'s about it. (Very small guild.) Did I pick the wrong class? Should I reroll a zerker to keep  that sword and armor  feel but actually do some damage in a group and solo/duo more effectively? I am asking on the paladin board too but I'd like to know what Bezerkers feel the casual play value of the two classes is. <div></div>

[Wiseman160]

<DIV>Although I've never played a paladin, I've been with them enough to recognise that their tanking ability solo is much greater than their tanking ability in a group.</DIV> <DIV>They are outdamaged in groups due to their attempts to heal themselves and others.  This uses endurance and takes times.  If you're not healing or warding, but concentrating on damage your DPS isn't bad at all.  The paladin is a well-rounded, powerful class but will generally not be considered for a main tanking position in a large group or raid when a non-crusder is available unless there is a fair level gap or difference in equipment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another problem with self-healing tanks is that their heals are often wasted.  If a priest heals you to full in the instant that you heal yourself then one of those heals is wasted.  This can create problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have respect for the paladin's ability to stay alive when solo, though. They would survive in many situations which would be hopeless for me, and come out victorious where I would be forced to flee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I were you, though, I wouldn't reroll just yet.  Consider the pros and cons of it and give it serious thought, though. If you want to be the main tank in a group, paladins can fill that role just as well as any other tank in most situations.  For raids, though, a warrior is generally chosen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Boli32]

My paladin is nigh unkillable... and as long as I keep an eye on my surroundings I can pretty much avoid all trips to the mender. Its not that he has the bets stats mitigation, avoidance and health pool it is due to 3 skills<font color="#ff0000"> <u><font color="#ffffff">ward</font></u><font color="#ffffff">, </font><u><font color="#ffffff">lay on hands</font></u><font color="#ffffff">, </font><u><font color="#ffffff">sprint</font></u></font><u><font color="#ffffff">.</font></u> Not very honourable but I only run away from trouble when soloing. I've been messing aorudn on my zerker alt and she is a lot more fun to play but there are times when I wish I coudl hit that heal or ward. Sure our DPS sucks but there is nothign more satisfying that have the group run away and leave you alone and return sheephisly after a few minuites when your still there hacking away. my opinion... play both in duoing a pally is much more fun... soling a zerker but dangerous and grouping - all depends on the group. <div></div>

[Zander Southwi]

<P>I did exactly what your considering.  I had a 50 pally pre-DoF although my main was a ranger.  I did play him up to 52 but really did not like him anymore.  I solo quite a bit and found his damage making for very long drawn out fights.  Of course, I was spoiled by my rangers damage.  </P> <P> </P> <P>My wife made a bard and I decided to make a new tank to duo with her and my zerker was born.  I find myself keeping up (or out damaging) her DPS class while laughing at the mobs hits.  Excellent soloablity in fact I can solo things on my now low 50's zerker my high 50's ranger has trouble with.</P> <P> </P> <P>I still have the pally but he does nothing but craft now (59 armorer few days ago!).</P>

[Wiseman160]

<DIV>Even if the berserker is a better fit for you, if you really are a casual gamer you know how long it took to get into the 40s... I'm a casual gamer myself, and rerolling keeps me down. My highest is my berserker (40) but it took me forever to get there. I have a full list of alts in their late 20s and early 30s.  If it weren't for them I'm sure I'd have made it to 60 by now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think I made my berserker last May...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway I'd only reroll as a casual player if you really loathe your current class, not if you just want a little extra bonus.  The berserker is a fun class, but I've noticed that there are flaws with every class that makes me wish at certain times that I was a different one.  That's just the way it goes in a system that attempts balance.</DIV>

[firewolf]

Berserker can solo very well. Not the best but pretty good. Berserker has the best permanent in-combat regen among the fighter class. The regen is not as good as SK's lifetap or paladin's ward. However, it takes 0 power to maintain. One perma regen buff that last forever and another one that has to be cast every 15min. Combined with in-combat regen trait, my berserker at 37 has 70++ in combat regen without any regen item on.  Since I solo most of the time, getting the master 2 version of those buffs helps a lot.  Against blue cons non-heroic, most of the time end the fight with full hp. Only casters mob are able to get my hp into yellow. Up until level 37, my berserker can solo suprisingly well. Can take down heroic 3 arrow up or 2 heroic 2 arrows up ( 8-10 levels below). However has trouble with named heroic 3 arrows up (casters).   Those dots and nuke are just too much for regen to keep up. <div></div>

[Khal]

<DIV>Agro managment is the whole groups responsability.  Pallys have good taunts, plenty for good agro.  Some classes need to pace themselves and not use certain abilitys.  Bruisers for examply cant resist using quarrel, it adds extra attacks, but also hate and will most likely pull agro.</DIV>

[Tuna]

<P>Personally I think that pally's make great tanks after the combat changes.  I play a 60 zerker, and while I love the class for it's offense and adequate tanking ability, I get blown out of the water by pally's on certain mobs as far as tanking goes.</P> <P>Pally's have such high wisdom... there resists to magic are considerably higher, so they fair much better against caster mobs.  For example, the keeper in poets palace (orange to a lvl 60) is much more easily tanked by a pally then a beserker.  My wife is 60 Fury and she regularly groups with zerker (me) and pally tanks.  She swears by pallys.  I stated in a previous post that I wasn't my wife's favorite tank anymore <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>So if it is a matter of wanting to do more dmg... I can't say as I blame you, as that is my preference as well.  However, pally's are by no means a lesser tank, and in many cases are a better "tank" option.</P> <P>Ripgut,</P> <P>60 Zerker, Crushbone</P>

[Valandur1975]

I find myself in a very similar position. My main is a Ranger (will probably ding 40 w/i the next day or two), and I cherish him, but I have always wanted a plate class Fighter  that I use just as much as my main. I started a new account and rolled a Pally (along with my Ranger) a few months ago after returning to the game. I chose that class mainly because that was the class of my original character prior to leaving the game back in february of '04. Now, I am mostly a soloer who groups from time to time as the need arises (to complete a quest, keep my grouping skills sharp, and to take part in dungeons). I have had misgivings about going with a Paladin since the mid 20s, quite frankly. At times, I have a blast, and unless I am being really foolish, I really need to work to get in over my head. Pallys have excellent survivability because of the heals. But the DPS is so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] low (even for a fighter) that it makes it tough to really enjoy soloing with him.  Add to that the fact that Pallys seems to be everywhere for some reason - I don't need to be unique, but I don't really want to be as common as Pallys presently are. I have long believed that a Berserker would be more my style of play, so I am starting to level one right now. I still have yet to embrace the idea of completely giving up the Pally (those high 20s really are a drag),  but the idea is becoming more appealing  all the while. I can deal with the madness of  levelling a second player  (in addition to the Ranger) to 60, but I don't think I could do it with a third. therefore the decision needs to be made soon. <div></div>

[Chari]

I just re-rolled from a SK. Kinda wanted a fresh start, and to see what Qeynos was like. All my other characters are Freeport citizens <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>But dont listen to me, Im only a lvl 10 warrior right now <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[Celedon Silvertree]

That is kind of where I am at. Yes, I am a good tank... situationally better than many in some circumstances. And unless I am stupid or seriously unlucky I don't die solo or duo much. Of course.. I am stupid pretty often.. Yet zerkers and the monk/bruisers also are good tanks, yet they trump me in damage seriously. That's the big reservation. If I wanted to be the best group tank possible I'd play a guardian.. I took Paladin cause I thought it was balanced pre issue 13.... and now it is much less balanced than it was when I picked it. I didn't say it was less of a tank.. but the options available to a paladin aren't what they were when I did my class selection quest. I chose a class that could dish it out.. or could take it.. but generally had to do one or the other. Now I don't have that choice so much any more. I don't want to cry about it. I want to do something about it. Zerkers seem balanced in comparison. It isn't all about being the best group tank. It is about being effective solo and a good team player, having a decent adventure/kill speed too... but keeping the armored fighting man feel. Paladins used to be that. Now I think zerkers are the only ones who may still have that balance and the traditional warrior feel. <div></div>

[Valandur1975]

The more I think about it, and the more I read your posts,  the more I think you should just go for it. If you can deal with the monotony of some of the more tedious level stretches (again, my least favorite would have to be the high 20s, as I really dislike TS and to a lesser extent, Nek). Like, I said, I am seriously considering doing the same. Shelfing your (my) Pally doesn't mean deleting him, so if you (I) regret it, there is always the option of going back. The one thing that has me hedging my bets are any posible future nerfs to the Zerker class could have you (me) slapping your (my) forehead in frustration after putting all that work into re-levelling a character up to the point your (my)Pally is at right now. Also, the "grass is always greener" syndrome could always rear it's ugly head. With that in mind, I think some sage advice for both you and I is to level a Zerker into the mid 20s or so, and re-evaluate matters. At least get through the AQs and get a hold of that snazzy new red armor. If things seem to be much more enjoyable from your (my) gameplay perspective, keep driving on. If things seem similar enough to the Pally at that point to really make you (me) question why you are going through this same stage of levelling again, you'll (I'll) know it would be best to return to the Pally. <div></div>

[Celedon Silvertree]

That seems like sound advice. No harm in dabbling. Well.. there is some harm. Gotta work like gangbusters to try and get him to where I can join in my guild's normal group activities on weekends. Probably just twink him and skip the AQs in favor of getting through the 20s as fast as I can. But it should be a fun exercice. Yes.. the grass is always greener is what has me worried. That is why I posted the question. I just wonder if there is some weakness of the zerker that is going to suddenly going to rear it's ugly head and I am going to miss the paladin badly. Thanks for the help. Time to get started I think. <div></div>

[Valandur1975]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Just a quick update on my status with this (And I really don't mean to threadjack - I just want to lend another perspective):Levelled my 19 Warrior up to a 21 Berserker last night. Quick thoughts:- Wow, so far, so good. I really like the fact that I am not throwing up a ward at every tough engagement (and getting stunned 2/3 of the way through initiating the ward nearly every other time).-Too early to get a flavor for the "set" of ca's Zerkers use. I expect I won't get the feel for this "set" until 25-27 (if I go by how long it took me for my Ranger and Pally to reach the same point). But, briefly looking ahead over the next few levels - things look promising. One of the dislikes I have about Pallys is about 1/3 of their skills are group specific/oriented. For me (who groups only occasionally), that amounts to wasted skills.-I like the flaming fist. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />-Do I miss the heals? Nahh, not right now. There hasn't been much downtime to speak of waiting on power/health regen. The truth be told, the only heal that I regularly used in combat as a Pally was the "Lay On Hands" line when I got in way over my head. Even that was a crutch I knew I could lean on every 15 minutes, so sometimes I intentionally put myself in dangerous situations. The other heals were basically just used for OOC regen. They waste too much time in combat for anything other than a quick save, IMO. I have grouped far less with the Pally than the Ranger, so maybe these heals are of more utility in groups.-I have a strange fascination for spathas, and I LOVE being able to switch from my Greatsword to a set of spathas just for a changeup. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />-Being a Ranger at heart, it's great having a bow in my hands while wearing plate! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (though, it sure would be nifty for 1 bow CA that gets upgraded throughout the levels).-Did the first of the AQs for the sharp-looking red gauntlets. Did they change the AQs recently, or has the 1st Berzerker AQ always been soloable? For both my Ranger and Pally, the set of MOBs included grouped Heroic Sabertooths outside of BB. The Zerker AQ pt I just required Giant Bears and Caltorsis Knights.-OTOH, AQ pt II looks FAR tougher than the AQ pt II for my Ranger/Pally. Necrosis Conscripts, Varsoon Aprentices in TS, and Chiptooth. For the Pally/Ranger AQ it was Broodtenders in BB, Chiptooth and Giant Kodiaks. Strange at the difficulty differences between the two quests compared to the Pally/Ranger set.-The last 2 points lead to a bit of a letdown; For both my Pally and Ranger, I coasted until level 25 just working on the AQs. Didn't even really think about grinding. AQs 4-6 were all just about soloable (except for 1 part of pt 5), but the XP involved killing the MOBs as well as the quest XP for all of these was great. Again, not sure what AQs 3-6 for Zerkers will entail, but if they prove to be as much of a pain (mainly to find a group)as pt 2, this will lead to the grind coming a bit sooner.So, in the early going, things look promising. As I have stated, I really dislike the TS. I have only played in Nek on a limited basis, so that might be worth investigating. The 20s just don't look like they are going to be all that much fun - but that is nothing Berzerker specific (I felt the same way with my other character). I might need to do some serious twinking with collections. If I can make it to 30 before I get too burned out with the character/locations, I'll be set. I remember getting to 30 with my other two mains and moving to the EL and Zek, and what a breath of fresh air it was. That has got to be what I keep my eyes fixed on.All in all, I believe (even at this early stage) that I should have made a Berzerker from the get-go instead of a Pally. They  are seemingly nowhere near as overplayed as Pallys (again, a concern for me), and look to have a skill set more attuned to my playstyle for my plate tank character.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Valandur1975 on <span class="date_text">01-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:44 AM</span></p>

[Tuna]

<div></div><p>I would never play a Pally, I simply enjoy dishing out dmg too much.  Note that playing a zerker can lead to some dissapointments though!</p><p>At lvl 60 I am rarely the tank of choice against challenging mobs.  If you are not raiding a lot then prob not a big deal.</p><p> </p>

[kopingOwen]

tricky question this both classess are great fun but if i had to go with 1 i would go pally.. why? their dps suck! well sure with one little exception.. a key mob class namelu UNDEAD lol i just love go all out offencive with my pally against undeads and see those ca´s do 2x the damage and watch those damage % buffs go off for 2x the damage pure carnage if you ask me but against every LIVING mob we don´t exactly shine lolz

[firewolf]

Berserker AQ 3-6 armour are  quite impossible to solo before level 30 even if you are decked out in legendary gear. Some of the mobs that you need to take down are 3 arrows up heroic in Stormhold, Crypt of Decay and TS for qeynos based berserker. You definitely need a group for those. Finally, I managed to finish the entire AQ at level 36, soloed all of them. Some mobs are still green con but those 3 arrows up has lots of hp.<div></div>

[Celedon Silvertree]

You know.. I got a lot of advice from my thread on the Paladin forums and I can't say any more that Pally DPS is really so bad as I thought. I did learn a few very important things:<ol><li>DPS seems to dip in the 30's because most of your CAs were received in the 20's so they start to age seriously. The upgrades to them you couldn't afford in the 20's become important in the 30's. You finally get these abilties upgraded in the 40's.</li><li>Two handed weapons used in offensive stance is the key if you want DPS.</li><li>There are some fantastic weapon upgrades out there... I love the Wyrmsteel Axe.</li></ol>Once I got my early 40's spell upgrades I found my DPS problem MUCH less serious. In fact.. I was soloing along side a wizard (who was also soloing the same mobs.. there were plenty) in Lavastorm last night and I noticed we were killing at a very similar rate with little down time. Can't complain about that.Apparently there are these multilevel gaps where you just have to suffer through and be patient. Folks were telling me by mid T5 things get better.. and they did.<div></div>

[Valandur1975]

<div></div><b><font color="#cc3300">Edit: Just completed AQ 4 and received AQ 5. Wow. Whereas AQ's 3 and 4 were identical to the Ranger and Pally AQs, 5 is completely different --> and much more challenging. The disparity in difficulty is quite striking as a matter of fact. Mighty Griffons (26 ^^^ and 27 ^^^) and Firerock Giants (25^^^) compared to Sabertooth Looters for the "tough" MOBs of the quest. Wow, no comparison. If AQ 6 is similar in disparity between the two classes, I now understand your post. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font>Berserker AQ 3-6 armour are  quite impossible to solo before level 30 even if you are decked out in legendary gear. Some of the mobs that you need to take down are 3 arrows up heroic in Stormhold, Crypt of Decay and TS for qeynos based berserker. You definitely need a group for those. Finally, I managed to finish the entire AQ at level 36, soloed all of them. Some mobs are still green con but those 3 arrows up has lots of hp.</b>I don't entirely agree.Just got to AQ 4 as a Zerker and will solo that no problem. My observations for each level of the AQ for Pallys/Rangers:AQ 3: SH MOBs. Impossible to solo. Did the Knights (20 ^^^) solo as a Zerker at 26/27. Cavs and Crusaders need a group.AQ 4: Easily soloable. Soloed with my Ranger (at 23), Pally (at 23) and will do so with my Zerker (at 27). It's just tedious waiting on the Restlesss corpses to spawn. None of these NEED to be ^^^ MOBs.AQ 5: Soloed all but the Sabertooth looters with my Ranger and Pally - needed a healer for them. I am assuming that the same Mobs will be needed for the Zerker version. I will atempt the looters solo, but will likely need a healer.AQ 6: Soloed with my Pally And Ranger. Same thing I said in #5 applies for this one regarding the Zerker.AQ 1 and 2 usually go quick, because of their relative ease (Chiptooth is now a single ^ arrow!). #3 is, IMO, the most frustrating of the AQs because the stars have needed to align to get a good group (that will stay together long enough) to get through it for all 3 of my characters. After that, they are cake. All but #5 can be soloed, and those MOBS are right at the entrance of TS, and it is usally not a problem to get some help for the Looters.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Valandur1975 on <span class="date_text">01-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:35 AM</span></p>

[Valandur1975]

<div></div><div></div><b><i>You know.. I got a lot of advice from my thread on the Paladin forums and I can't say any more that Pally DPS is really so bad as I thought. I did learn a few very important things:</i></b><ol><li><b><i>DPS seems to dip in the 30's because most of your CAs were received in the 20's so they start to age seriously. The upgrades to them you couldn't afford in the 20's become important in the 30's. You finally get these abilties upgraded in the 40's.</i></b></li><li><b><i>Two handed weapons used in offensive stance is the key if you want DPS.</i></b></li><li><b><i>There are some fantastic weapon upgrades out there... I love the Wyrmsteel Axe.</i></b></li></ol><b><i>Once I got my early 40's spell upgrades I found my DPS problem MUCH less serious. In fact.. I was soloing along side a wizard (who was also soloing the same mobs.. there were plenty) in Lavastorm last night and I noticed we were killing at a very similar rate with little down time. Can't complain about that.Apparently there are these multilevel gaps where you just have to suffer through and be patient. Folks were telling me by mid T5 things get better.. and they did.</i></b>That is interesting regarding the CAs getting better in the mid 40s- and it does make sense. It doesn't make those "gaps" any more enjoyable, though. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The other material I have been applying from the get go: Legendary gear, Always in offensive stance, I use a 2-hander, Adept III or Master level spells for my main offensive CAs. The only thing I may have been doing wrong is not stuffing my INT stats as much as I should.<b><i></i></b><div></div><p>Message Edited by Valandur1975 on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:54 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Valandur1975 on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:56 AM</span></p>