Differences in the tanking ability of the fighters

[cr0wangel]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG>Moorgard</STRONG></FONT> Wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle....</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So now we have a tentative hierarchy of:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Guardian - Paladin - Berserker - Shadowknight - Bruiser - Monk</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ranked from lowest DPS and highest tanking ability to highest DPS and lowest tanking ability.</P> <P>I found this post on the Feeback Test forum, I just thought about sharing it, since it seem to be official. SOE will not "balance" the fighters tanking abilities, the differences will stay there. SOE need to explain each class better. Most of the players think all fighters could tank as good as the others when they start to play and have to choose a class.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 AM</span>

[Pnaxx]

Interesting. Well...tanking means more than just mitagation though...but tis a good post and very helpful. thnx fer it.:smileywink:

[Ru]

<div></div>Tanking is more than avoidance, ac, and buffs. Hell, if Guardians get better buffs, they are support chacters. While, having good defense is very important, your defense is worthless unless the mob is attacking you. A tanks first role is to keep the mob on one target, and off the more frail party members. Their second role is to minimize damage. And, I don't know about you guys, but I constantly steal hate when I'm not MT, off paladins and guardians. I don't even have to taunt to do it. I was in a party the other night. The MT was a Paladin (higher level, but only by 1 or 2). She had all the mobs on her, except the one she was targeting. Because I was assisting her, the mob she was attacking was on me. I wasn't taunting or buffing. I was simpily using my attacks. However, that being said, I don't know much about monks/bruisers, or even SKs. But, It seems that, the quality of the tank is up to the player, not Sony. Oh, and about players thinking all fighters can tank the same. That's what was implied by Sony, before the game was released. All fighters would be tanks, and do an equal job. The differance would be in how they do it, and flavor. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ruse on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Huna]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ruse wrote:<div></div>Tanking is more than avoidance, ac, and buffs. Hell, if Guardians get better buffs, they are support chacters. While, having good defense is very important, your defense is worthless unless the mob is attacking you. A tanks first role is to keep the mob on one target, and off the more frail party members. Their second role is to minimize damage. And, I don't know about you guys, but I constantly steal hate when I'm not MT, off paladins and guardians. I don't even have to taunt to do it. I was in a party the other night. The MT was a Paladin (higher level, but only by 1 or 2). She had all the mobs on her, except the one she was targeting. Because I was assisting her, the mob she was attacking was on me. I wasn't taunting or buffing. I was simpily using my attacks. However, that being said, I don't know much about monks/bruisers, or even SKs. But, It seems that, the quality of the tank is up to the player, not Sony. Oh, and about players thinking all fighters can tank the same. That's what was implied by Sony, before the game was released. All fighters would be tanks, and do an equal job. The differance would be in how they do it, and flavor. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ruse on <span class="date_text">04-28-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:47 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> I noticed the same thing last night.  I'm 36 and there was a 38 paladin in the group.  So, the paladin was the main tank.  I stole aggro without taunting, and she couldn't get it back.  So, I wonder which was a better choice for MT.   When I compared our stats, I had about 20 more AC than her, she had 200hps on me.  My avoidance was 2.3% higher than hers.  This was with her holding a shield and one hander, and I had dual wield.  So, any opinions on who should have been MT?  I don't know what her defence was, do Paladins have as much Defense buffing as we do?  (Scatterbrain post, at work, gotta type fast) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Norgoz]

Hunadi: Despite your AC and Avoidance being higher, you have to remember that level does matter alot when tanking. Your Avoidance would be 58% (just using this number as example) avoidance Vs. other level 36 mobs, and less avoidance vs. mobs higher than 36. Whereas her 56% avoidance is against level 38 mobs. Same goes for your mitigation. Her 50% mitigation (1755AC) (again just throwing numbers out there) is 50% mitigation from Lv38 mobs, whereas your 50.8% (1775AC) is against other mobs at your level 36. <div></div>

[Chanliang]

Not exatcly like that with their new math all have about equal tanking but DPS and defences will be balanced so monk/bruiser will do more DPS = less defences, guard/paladin = less DPS more defences and sk's and berserkers on the middle.  So basically if you do more damage then you dont need that much defences and vice versa.  This will work on exping but will favour more defence tanks in raid situations like it is now. So really no drastic changes just finally a statement that they count DPS, skills, defences all as tanking ability not just mitigation/avoidance. <div></div>

[Huna]

Norgoz, yeah I figured the higher level should tank, but I wonder what the magic number is?  Like say the lower level tank had 5% better avoidance, and 5% better mitigation would it be enough to make up the level difference?  We didn't fight enough stuff to see how much more the healer had to heal me, so I don't know how much of a difference it really was. Sorry about the thread derailment, as for the tanking list, I personally would like berserkers to be higher damage, farther to the dps side than the pure tank side. <div></div>

[Chanliang]

going further from pure tanking than now or planned would mean same as brawlers so in the ladder wise stuck here <div></div>

[Norgoz]

I think Berserkers are in a good position personally. From my experience we can dish out alot more than given credit for (assuming we're 37+ mainly because of Tides of War's haste). While we're tanking we're dishing out some decent numbers, but if we're put in a pure DPS spot we can pump out some big numbers if we go all-out (but not too much as to burn all our power on one mob). In my experience in groups when the question of who should tank has come up, I was either with a Paladin or Shadow Knight of the same level or 1-2 levels higher. If the Pally/SK were 1 level higher, I would normally be the better choice because of agro control and then let the pally/sk focus on support/dps. This is also assuming mitigation and avoidance would be higher than the Knight's... which, in most cases of 1 level difference, it is. The only reason a Warrior would be a better choice is because of Knight's tank support buffs and they could help with wards and heals and not have to burn extra power maintaining hate. In other words, it's better for the group as a whole. The higher level is almost always the better decision, but if it's only a 1 level difference the Warrior is probably the better choice with the Knight supporting them. Their is also some avoidance and/or mitigation boost from items of a higher tier (Refering to Legendary, Fabled, etc). <i>The Knight protects the Warrior, the Warrior protects the King.</i> - ??? <div></div>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>Dont agree on the Shadowknight part.  Actually i think Zerkers do more damage than Shadowknights from my own experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least melee wise DPS we do outdamage them for sure  and even with their tricks my Berserker usually ends up on fights with more damage dealed than the SK.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding  aggro magnets  i remember how once i was grouped as secondary tank (46),  the MT was a shadowknight (50) and in Permafrost  i was constantly  drawing aggro from him.....   quite strange (and not using any taunt or hate movement)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess he didnt know much about aggro control....   or something, cause i've seen Guardians/Pallies/Shadowknights   handling over the MT role quite well, but that was quite strange indeed.</DIV>

[Sulakor]

I think quality of a tank mainly comes down to the individual player. The equipment his character has, the upgraded skills he has and his ability to use his skills. The appropriate skill at the appropriate time. A skilled lower level tank will always be better than a higher level tank who doesn't know what he's doing. I've been in groups where I've been the preferred choice over a SK 3 levels higher than me just because I think and know how a tank should operate. I'm far from an expert, but most of it just takes a little common sense. <div></div>

[Kaberu]

The thing with shadowknights... if they want to increase their damage output, they should increase INT to boost the spell based damage they do along with STR for the physical stuff. That's where some of the lopsided numbers come from. Most SKs seem to boost the physical stats almost exculsivly so they don't get the same damage increase as we do by increasing  just Strength.

[Kailypso]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every time you go berserk you generate a ton of hate. Turn on Focused rage and you are pretty much taunting every time some one is hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I was 42 in Solsek I could pull agro from a 47th level assassin most of the time where guardians and SKs much higher couldnt.</DIV>