Taunts taunts taunts

[Meinhoff]

Im not sure if its a cruel joke, but who was it that removed taunts, and why?Adept 3 and Master 1/2 on everything...and I still cant keep aggro? (Aggression maxxed).I hammer on everything I got to atleast try keeping aggro...but they allways turn away. Reinforcement followed by Protection (Master) and a Confront (Adept 3) and, if its up, Vindictive strike (Adept 3)....sure, they turn back..for a sec or two...then...nah, I better go back to the Paladin (Im not kidding) or whatever it is. (I must add here that I ofcourse use all other skills in the arsenal..all adept 3 - master 2).// AA Hate (Str) Maxxed. 72.2Dps weapon.Long fights..lets say Epic x2 -x4...Im all out of juice while all others seem to be at pretty much full power at the end.My question/observation is...Eh...since we (Guardians) cant really do damage (atleast not when we're defense specced), shouldnt we atleast then be the uberness of aggro/taunts? I fint the current taunts to be laughable (as do the mobs apparently). Im so not happy./ My 5 coppers.<div></div>

[Ardors]

<P>You need to face the facts that in raids, you are dependant of your group setup to maintain agro because you usually have dps groups setup that will generate huge amount of hate that you can't, on your own, stay ahead of. </P> <P>So, get a Dirge and a Coercer for about 83% hate gain and get a Swash or Assassin for a hate transfer and you will find it much easier to hold agro.  the dirge and coercer will help tons with power as well.</P> <P>Group encounters will always be an issue for a guard tho, so make sure the mages dont blow their AE loads too early...dont forget, Agro management is everyone's job, thats how SOE wants it.</P> <P>Cheers!</P>

[WolfSha]

<DIV>Yep, 100% correct - in a grp situation put your hate reducer on the most agroie person - normally wiz/warlock and spam everything you got - dps is your friend.  Get some good drink and don't expect to end fights with much power left unless you're really doing well on the agro.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In raids it's a whole different story and knowing what other classes can do for you is key.  A troub in with the mages will help too by lowing their hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i find hate in grp situations to be a pain in the bum, but at least you have enough  "48% chance to take damage" spells to protect half the group.  I played a zerker till 70 with 50 AAs then swapped to guard and i must say that in a group situation i find myself missing my zerkery agroy uberness at times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having said that I spend almost all of my play time as raid MT (hence the bretayal) and I normally have no issue with hate in raids at all - normally I can finish the fight with more power than most, but it's as much about your group set up as your knowlage of your class and the ability to play it.  If you're raid leader then put some time into learning all the other classes buffs - you'll be a lot better off for it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>01-06-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:31 AM</span>

[JimmyMa]

Keep an eye on the paladin that is taking agro from you, if he is amending you or casting sigil right near the start of the fight (and one or twice during) he will be pulling agro wtihout a lot of trouble. If so, remind him that he is just there to buff you up, not to tank himself.Watch what your raidmates are up to and most of the time, if they are peeling off of you while you are spamming ca's and taunts, there is something going on that shouldn't be.That being said, probably mt group make-up is essential.<div></div>

[Meinhoff]

Well...raid isn't really the problem....if people uberaggro, I just let them die..they might learn in the end, not to go 110% out the first 5 seconds on things hitting for several k's.Grouping however is a completely different thing, To me as a Guardian not being able to keep aggro, must feel like playing a Wizard and all nukes gets resisted basically everytime they are thrown..imagine the uproar...and imagine the worthlessness of the Wizard class.My point being, if Im 100% specced towards defense and aggro-management..there should be _no contest_ in getting/holding aggro since I do have to let other things go (damage, haste....fun)I must add that I ofcourse use Inflaming defense (adept 3) and I have the B'Riareos Defender (nothing über, but 50% on a block, increase threat by 750 on target encounter)// My 5 coppers.<div></div>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meinhoff wrote:<BR>Well...raid isn't really the problem....if people uberaggro, I just let them die..they might learn in the end, not to go 110% out the first 5 seconds on things hitting for several k's.<BR>Grouping however is a completely different thing, To me as a Guardian not being able to keep aggro, must feel like playing a Wizard and all nukes gets resisted basically everytime they are thrown..imagine the uproar...and imagine the worthlessness of the Wizard class.<BR><BR>My point being, if Im 100% specced towards defense and aggro-management..there should be _no contest_ in getting/holding aggro since I do have to let other things go (damage, haste....fun)<BR>I must add that I ofcourse use Inflaming defense (adept 3) and I have the B'Riareos Defender (nothing über, but 50% on a block, increase threat by 750 on target encounter)<BR><BR>// My 5 coppers.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>First point:</P> <P>You're using a kite shield and not a buckler - you're not 100% specced towards aggro management unless you have the buckler line, because <EM>the best DPS = the best aggro</EM>. The mistake people make with Guardian AA is try and eke out every last bit of defence, when in reality our AA lines are crap for defence bonuses and fantastic for DPS. Putting points into agi or int purely for def/parry that adds up to 1% avoidance is a horrible mistake compared to putting them into str and sta for 40% more DPS. So much so the devs should attach a warning label. There is <EM>nothing</EM> in this game you require a "defensive" AA setup to tank. Yes, there are times it's preferable to pull a tower shield and dig in as best you can, but believe me, there are a hell of a lot more situations where all you need is a mass of DPS and hate generation. All the defense in the world is worthless if the mob isn't hitting you.</P> <P> </P> <P>Second point:</P> <P>You <EM>must</EM> be doing something slightly wrong, because the majority of Guardians are pretty happy with our hate-generation. I can only suggest the following;</P> <P>- Understand the use of plant; a rooted mob will stay on you even if someone out of range (i.e. a mage) is higher on the hate list. As you no doubt know, it's much harder to get aggro back than maintain it, because as soon as a mob turns inflaming defence will not be proccing.</P> <P>- Use your big hits and taunts immediately at the start of a fight to make sure you don't lose aggro early on. Flay, Obliterate, Vindictive Strike, and Retaliation Strike should all be used in the first few seconds. Avoid using Besiege or Goarding Assault immediately, because they have long cast times and generate comparatively little hate. Goading Assault in particular is something I usually only use if I need to keep aggro on 2 encounters or it's 4+ mobs, because in the cast time auto-attack would do more damage.</P> <P>- If you have a wizard that's using ice nova in the first 2 seconds, or a necro lifeburning, ask them to announce it, use plant, then reinforcement. The mob will remain on you 100% of the time because of plant; the second ice nova hits you'll gain 7k hate because reinforcement will jump you up the hate list. If it's lifeburn on a raid this can mean so much hate you can afk the rest of the fight and still have aggro.</P> <P>- Download a parser such as Advanced Combat Tracker (ACT), and at the end of every evening briefly review your stats for the night. ACT can give you a lot of useful information; including which combat arts generate the majority of your damage output (and are thus most important to upgrade), the DPS you're generating, and the DPS of your groupmates. It gives you much more insight into the effectiveness of certain setups, and is why I'll never drop the buckler line.</P> <P>- It's common practice to target a single mob, burn it down, then target the next one, etc, because you take the least damage this way. However, it's more efficient to rapidly switch targets so all mobs die at the same time (because AE damage is maxed throughout the fight). It's also easier to keep aggro against a warlock if you keep changing targets. In general I try and target switch if we're simply killing as fast as possible, but use the one at a time approach on tough encounters or epics.</P> <P> </P> <P>Third point:</P> <P>It is by the nature of the game, that as a tank any mistakes or shortcomings you have are immediately noticable, whilst it's much more forgiving for other classes. A wizard that "undernukes" for example, and puts out pitiful damage, can go unnoticed for hours. As a tank, you try the same thing, and people will be complaining after the first pull. You're also effectively the lowest common denominator for the group - an uber, full-fabled wizard can only put out as much DPS as you can handle.</P> <P>It's because of this I reckon (perhaps egotistically, though I do have 60+ healer and dps alts), that playing a tank really is playing the game on hard mode. There's no slacking, because if you do, people notice immediately. What I'm trying to say coming out of this, is don't be disheartened if you are struggling to keep aggro atm, because it's not easy to do when you have DPS classes with better gear / masters in the group.</P>

[Jackula]

Extremely well said Tuinal.<div></div>

[Meinhoff]

<div></div>So, what you are saying is...in short... I should go 4.4.8.8 on STR and STA? Use a buckler but change to Tower when Im raidtanking if needed? (I have 4 tower and 1 kite with me at all times)Other then that, I dont think you get my point...taunts takes massive power to use..and they do nothing.// EDIT: I've used ACT for some time now btw.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Meinhoff on <span class=date_text>01-07-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 AM</span>

[Jackula]

I think AA lines are flexable enough for you to try different ones to see what works best for you.  I think some AA lines have advantages over others, but alot depends on what weapons you have available to you, what kind of gear you have (matters much less for tanking for a non-raid group), what you want to tank, your playstyle, etc.What you are missing is taunts = hate and damage = hate.  They go together hand in hand.  I think you are completely wrong to say taunts do nothing.  They do what they are supposed to do.  My taunts cycle back up faster than my heavy hitting CAs.  I use both as much as I can along with my debuffing DOT attacks primarily, and then I throw the kitchen sink at the mobs too.  Use everything you can.  Taunts do alot.  If taunts did nothing, why do we use them?  If you can get by without ever taunting, more power to you.  Very few tanks can.If you have certain classes helping your hate, you don't need to use taunts as much, but I can't imagine tanking anything without taunts with the equipment I have and the players I typically have access to.Taunts really do something.  Really.<div></div>

[Sir_Halbarad]

Tuinal hits the nail on the head.Damage is hate...Once I burned my confront, protection, vindictive strike, obliteration, flay, retaliation strike and perfect strike... normally nobody (who isn't in suicidal mood <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) gets aggro from me... Add Sever and Merciless Charge and Buffet on Caster Mobs and you can do every encounter mana efficient.<div></div>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meinhoff wrote:<BR> So, what you are saying is...in short... I should go 4.4.8.8 on STR and STA? Use a buckler but change to Tower when Im raidtanking if needed? (I have 4 tower and 1 kite with me at all times)<BR>Other then that, I dont think you get my point...taunts takes massive power to use..and they do nothing.<BR><BR>// EDIT: I've used ACT for some time now btw.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Meinhoff on <SPAN class=date_text>01-07-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:58 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The quick answer is yes, you should take that spec. I'm all for suggesting alternatives when I see them but to me it's so clear cut this is the best spec, I think I'd be lying if I suggested otherwise. I raid tank, and with EoF I tried dropping the buckler line, but I have since specced back, so I've seen both sides of the argument. Others may have different opinions, all I know is haste, DPS mod, defense, parry, and everything else the other lines give you suffer diminishing returns or hit caps when you're buffed. True double attack and melee crits, however, will give you benefits in every situation, and are actually amplified by buffs rather than diminished.</P> <P>As a tip when you use a buckler, bind <U>the same key</U> to a hotbutton with a tower shield in (drag it there from an inventory bag), and a hotbutton with tower of stone. If you take a damage spike or something bad happens, you can mash this key and you'll instantly equip the shield and use ToS. Then you can keep the tower equipped if needs be or switch back to the buckler.</P> <P>With regards to taunts, they don't do <EM>nothing</EM>. I'd say, off a total guess, about 70% of aggro is damage, and 30% taunts, probably more on group encounters when inflaming defense is proccing. They don't use that much power either; although as a class we do though have high power consumption on full burn, I actually agree with you it's probably too high and we could use some power cost reductions, but it's not a massive issue. You should definitely complete and use a manastone as soon as it comes up, and a phantom adorn for your weapon is handy too. Make sure to hotbutton hearts and shards too when there's a summoner around.</P> <P>I think my fundamental point is that you can't rely on taunts alone to hold aggro. They're basically that little edge that make sure you're always ahead of everyone in the hate list, but you have to rely on your DPS being high as well.</P><p>Message Edited by TuinalOfTheNexus on <span class=date_text>01-07-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:02 PM</span>

[Snorm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meinhoff wrote:<BR>Im not sure if its a cruel joke, but who was it that removed taunts, and why?<BR>Adept 3 and Master 1/2 on everything...and I still cant keep aggro? (Aggression maxxed).<BR>I hammer on everything I got to atleast try keeping aggro...but they allways turn away. Reinforcement followed by Protection (Master) and a Confront (Adept 3) and, if its up, Vindictive strike (Adept 3)....sure, they turn back..for a sec or two...then...nah, I better go back to the Paladin (Im not kidding) or whatever it is. (I must add here that I ofcourse use all other skills in the arsenal..all adept 3 - master 2).<BR>// AA Hate (Str) Maxxed. 72.2Dps weapon.<BR><BR>Long fights..lets say Epic x2 -x4...Im all out of juice while all others seem to be at pretty much full power at the end.<BR><BR>My question/observation is...Eh...since we (Guardians) cant really do damage (atleast not when we're defense specced), shouldnt we atleast then be the uberness of aggro/taunts? I fint the current taunts to be laughable (as do the mobs apparently). Im so not happy.<BR><BR>/ My 5 coppers.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's not at all suprising to have a pally get aggo in a raid if they are amending a heavy hitting DPS class. These days, they can do decent DPS on their own.</P> <P>In a raid setting, I do everything I can to ensure that the MT gets power regin (that's even before any healers not in the MT group, and the casters) W/O power you cannot hold mobs, and guards are just power hogs. We do get power back faster than the casters, etc. just because we have a smaller power pool in general.</P> <P>The only major thing people haven't mentioned is HO's. The basic two step HO that ends with a taunt generates a lot of aggro.</P> <P>The guard niche is that we take damage better than anyone (slightly) and 'protect' our groups, not that we hold the best aggro. As in all things tanking, this is somewhat subjective, but in the right situations we're behind ... well I was going to list them, but pretty much all the other tanks. SK's have aggro control pretty rough, but death march is just crazy AE snap aggro.</P> <P>In good groups, I don't expect to always have a lock on aggro. Truth is, it doesn't much matter most of the time if mobs slip when they are in the yellow or beyond. It makes more sense for the DPS classes to push past what the tank can hold given that fully debuffed heroic mobs hit like wee little girls. It doesn't even push the healers... I generally toss out an intercept when aggro goes, and it frequently doesn't even get used, meaning if I'd blown rescue or reinfocement, or just gone nuts burning power getting it back (as I used to) nothing would have changed except for my pathetic additinal DPS, the waste of a spell timer better saved for when it could do something usefull, and me being out of power. In groups is when sentry watch, stone sphere, etc. start to be really usefull, and they are only usefull when you don't have aggro (ironically) Anyway, dont' get too hung up always having to have a lock on aggro when it just doesn't matter.</P> <P>Snorm -- 70 Guard</P><p>Message Edited by Snorm on <span class=date_text>01-07-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:01 PM</span>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snorm wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>The only major thing people haven't mentioned is HO's. The basic two step HO that ends with a taunt generates a lot of aggro.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Snorm on <SPAN class=date_text>01-07-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I tend to go for warrior > scout ones on a raid, they're very quick to link with a good scout because they're all from CAs, and swindler's gift is particularly useful on orange cons (plus being a group buff it generates good aggro). But yeah, definitely good advice to get in the habit of starting an HO wheel and spamming them.

[Jackula]

<div></div><div></div>Here's two question to throw out there in regards to hate.  1) What do you think gives you more hate?  The 10% hate gain from putting 8 points into the 4th STR ability, or splitting those 8 points into the INT line (4/4) instead to increase your haste by 28% and generate more dps?2) Haste affects autoattack, so you're only gaining extra dps on autoattacks.  I get that.  What does the 10% hate gain affect?  Autoattacking only, autoattacks + CAs, or autoattacks + CAs + taunts as well?  Perhaps this answer will answer why I see more tanks using those 8 points in STR instead of splitting them into INT.Thanks.I tried different AAs when they first came out and then settled down with the cookie cutter STA/WIS build for a very long time.  For fun and dps'ing I've experimented with 4/4/8 into STA/STR/INT and again with 4/4/8 into STA/WIS/INT.  Both of those builds <i>really</i> have been fun for soloing and regular grouping.  It's nice to beat "dps classes" with a Guardian.  At best, I barely play a back up raid tank but the next build will see me getting a bit more defensive again to aid in that role.  It should be a happy middle ground between my two extremes.  It will either be STA 4/4/8/8 and STR 4/4/8/8 or  STA 4/4/8/8, STR 4/4/8, INT  4/4.   The last point is  a toss  up between  Buckler Reversal  or 2%  more  Haste.   Respecs aren't cheap (although a Dev did comment about possibly introducing a decreasing cost over time added to respecs in the future).  In the meantime I am very eager to save some plat and hear your experiences with STR hate gain vs INT haste hate gain.<div></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by countjackula on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 AM</span>

[Yimway]

For what its worth, I'm on neither STR nor STA line and I have no problem holding agro in raid situations.Saturday nights parse showed that I was holding agro just fine from a raid doing 15kdps average.  I don't know how this scales with other guilds / raids, but I was doing just fine without using DPS for hate.In fact, I used the AGI end line ability 12s no CA's full parry on several occasions and never lost agro.Group makep is far more important than DPS output for hate management.I will consider specing back to DPS lines when I've reached the cap + 10% on defensive abilities (debuff buffer).<div></div>

[Jackula]

Group make up for hate transfer is vital.  You're right in that.  I don't think there is an AA spec that can outweigh what having two classes giving you hate does for you.  Not all of us have access to every class so that is one consideration when determining what will work better for each player.  Some of us only get one class to transfer hate to us, and worse sometimes you have none.  It's a very different world for the casual raider vs a regular raiding guild tank.  Another consideration for every player is how much soloability you want to give up to be defensive.  I don't want to be full-on defense mode for the little bit that I get to raid if that means the other 6 days out of the week are going to be harder.  I can't see myself dropping STA.One more minor point, but  still relevant to AA lines, is what weapons you have available to you.  I only know of one great spear.  I'm sure there are more, but they are rather uncommon.  Hammers are more common than spears, but the Devs could add more to the game.  You can't use Belly Smash on an epic, so that's another minor drawback for hammers.   It's much easier to get a starting raid axe (and dream of seeing the PAoD in your inventory one day <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  Swords seem to be the easiest to get ahold of.  None of that is AA spec breaking, but it is nice to be able to use a sword or an axe being as they seem to be most common.  All of that is based on KoS.  I have no idea what to expect from EoF yet.  Hopefully not as many 2 handers as KoS had <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<div></div>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<blockquote><hr>countjackula wrote:Group make up for hate transfer is vital.  You're right in that.  I don't think there is an AA spec that can outweigh what having two classes giving you hate does for you.  Not all of us have access to every class so that is one consideration when determining what will work better for each player.  Some of us only get one class to transfer hate to us, and worse sometimes you have none.  It's a very different world for the casual raider vs a regular raiding guild tank.  Another consideration for every player is how much soloability you want to give up to be defensive.  I don't want to be full-on defense mode for the little bit that I get to raid if that means the other 6 days out of the week are going to be harder.  I can't see myself dropping STA.One more minor point, but  still relevant to AA lines, is what weapons you have available to you.  I only know of one great spear.  I'm sure there are more, but they are rather uncommon.  Hammers are more common than spears, but the Devs could add more to the game.  You can't use Belly Smash on an epic, so that's another minor drawback for hammers.   It's much easier to get a starting raid axe (and dream of seeing the PAoD in your inventory one day <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  Swords seem to be the easiest to get ahold of.  None of that is AA spec breaking, but it is nice to be able to use a sword or an axe being as they seem to be most common.  All of that is based on KoS.  I have no idea what to expect from EoF yet.  Hopefully not as many 2 handers as KoS had <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<div></div><hr></blockquote>- STR AA Hate 10% increases the same things coercer and dirge buffs increase: Everything - Taunts, CA's , Auto-Attack - and as far as we know, they all stack. (Question from a former post)- On our normal raids, we have a coercer, dirge, assassin and swashbuckler, so we can pick the hate buff class the way we need them. That is some form of luxury, agreed.- As you might know, I respecced to STR/INT from STA/WIS after EoF release... I have respecced to STR/STA now and am happier than ever.- When I equip my big shield, I have still 10% hate and increased crit chance.... When the mob is debuffed, I equip the dinner plate and am happy that everything works fine for me. 10-11% block rate with buckler (I am lazy - only have one 1% block adornment), 76% double attack (86% in 1 AA), Buckler reversal which adds up, 10% hate, increased crit chance... This spec works solo, in groups and in raids.- The last time we tested our "go all out, try to steal aggro from MT - max dps" on E.A. in Labs I never lost aggro once. Whether that means our dps are [Removed for Content] I don't know, I doubt it though.- I do not think the 2nd AA ability in each line is dependant on the weapon you have. I used an old T6 spear when I had AGI Line (hotkey spear, click icon, hotkey main weapon). I used an old T6 Axe when I had STR Line... It doesn't really matter. Although when you hate switching, the STR Line is the best for you since most of the best (and the easiest obtainable) 1handers are axes: Frostwrath, Shadow Axe, Ascendant, (Planar Axe of Destruction - Contested)...- I haven't seen an EoF 1 hander yet (Fabled Guardian built)<div></div>

[Keavea]

<DIV>Pre eof i was Sta/wis . i was very happy with teh settings , raids where ok , and succesfull  Eof released i stayed with Sta /wis but saw that i was getting more hits ( harder ) then b4 so by talking here and there , and asking around , spending som plats on trying dif settings i came up with AGI/ Int so far im very happy with the settings , i dont loose agro in raid ( some times ) and with teh Mit /avoid curves wis line is kinda not needed anymore. the MT setup is the key to keep agro i lost the Dps by removing the Sta line but so far every body in mt grps seems to be very happy and telling me that its easyer to heal me .I have 14 TS to pull and 5 others to tank and i didnt  delete/sold my bucklers they are in my bank meebe going back to them with next expantion :p . anyways like most of the posters are sayin MT grp setup is the key in raid and as for just instance grping i dont have any problem on keeping agro even with a paladin in my grp </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers </DIV>