dual wield or 2 handed weapon?

[Bramwe]

<div></div>Ok I use a one hander and a shield 99% of the groups I am in.  However, the other night I was in a group and not the MT so in that situation would a 2 hander or dual wielding produce more dps for me?  Sorry if this has been beat to death.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Bramwell on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

[DanaDark]

<DIV>Same thing happened to me the other not... I wasn't MT and was like "What the heck am I gonna use?!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So... not sure if I should go DW or two hander... Im thinking whatever looks best or you have better of at the time. I mean honestly... no one ever says "Oh, get the guardian for the lEEt DPS!"</DIV>

[Berek_IronAxe]

If I am not using a Shield and 1-hander, then I have a couple 2 handed and serveral DW weapons to switch out too.  Depends on my mood and what I am fighting.  If I am in a Raid and not MT or MA then I still use Shield and 1 hander you just never know when a rogue mob will cause havoc.  Solo or Grp and not MT - read the first line - depends on mood and mob.

[Bramwe]

Ok, sounds like I will go with the best weapon available for the lowest price and not worry wether it be 2 handed or dual wield.  Thanks.<div></div>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Depending on your grp set up mainly, but 90percent of the time you will get to squeeze more dps out of a 2hander that procs.  You have a higher chance to proc on a slower weapon, and you can get more use out of DPS Mods and Haste buffs as eventually a DW will cap it on weapon delay.</DIV>

[Excedium]

Hey Tan, didn't they fix the bug with slower weapons having a huge proc %. DW weapons due tend to cap on delay way before 2handers though.

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>The equation is still the same, DWs will both proc now unlike they used to, BUT the equation will still favor the slower weapons to proc.  What they fixed was, "the problem when only the DW in ur main hand would proc, and your second hand weapon wouldnt"</DIV>

[Wabit]

<P>procs aren't displayed at their actual rate...  its off a 3 sec delay...  so a 5% on a 1.0 delay is alot different than a 5% on a 3.5 delay...  remember CAs can also proc a weapon...</P> <P>the number of procs per minute of each with just auto attack should average out to 3...  thats 60 swings compared to ~17 swings, or 1 proc every 20 swings to ~6 swings...</P> <P>1/6th chance to proc a 500 hit off a CA, or a 1/20 chance to proc a 250 hit...  thats where the slow 2H pulls ahead...  not even getting into haste...</P> <P>i prefer a 2H (seems we get between 1-4 nightly), DW of the same quality is just too rare for me to take from the scouts (although they are stealing the 1H now =/ )...</P>

[Crim001]

Up until T7, I tended to favor DW, mainly because I could usually scrape up the money and rare for it, but with all the new weps out in T7, 2H is looking far better.

[SageGaspar]

Just clearing up some things I've seen in this thread. Devs confirmed a while back there is no delay cap. 100% haste gives you half the delay of the weapon, period. Doesn't matter whether you have a .8s delay weapon, if you have 100% haste it's now .4s delay. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=100167#M100167 for the reference.Procs on CAs stopped using weapon delay way back during the "ranger nerf." In fact, that was literally the only component of the ranger nerf and it hit everyone. CAs use their own delay (cast time) when determining proc rate. So there is no advantage to using a slow weapon vs. a fast one for proc frequency on CAs. A month ago they did the same thing for spells.There is an advantage to a slow two-hander in terms of timing it between CAs, but if you noticed, dual wields actually get a bumped up damage rating to compensate for the attacks you lose during CAs. Two dual wields added together give you a higher damage rating than one two-hander.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<P>i still proc off CAs...  i can get 3 off before an autoattack swing comes up...  slower weapons do proc more often from my parses and experiances...  a 1.0 delay weapon with a 5% proc rarely goes off...  on a 60 sec fight of pure auto attack it proced like 1.87 times over the span of  2 hrs...  i was actully trying to get my shield to proc (one for LoA when the zone first opened) fighting the blue monk ^^ (i still hit em almost 98% of the time)...</P> <P>as for the ranger nerf, i thought it was that a proc/poison could hit but only on the inital hit...  thats what hit the rangers so hard was not procing on every attack from streaming or like a bruiser 100 hand slap not procing on every hit...</P>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div> <p>i still proc off CAs...  i can get 3 off before an autoattack swing comes up...  slower weapons do proc more often from my parses and experiances...  a 1.0 delay weapon with a 5% proc rarely goes off...  on a 60 sec fight of pure auto attack it proced like 1.87 times over the span of  2 hrs...  i was actully trying to get my shield to proc (one for LoA when the zone first opened) fighting the blue monk ^^ (i still hit em almost 98% of the time)...</p> <p>as for the ranger nerf, i thought it was that a proc/poison could hit but only on the inital hit...  thats what hit the rangers so hard was not procing on every attack from streaming or like a bruiser 100 hand slap not procing on every hit...</p><hr></blockquote><i>Procs on CAs stopped using weapon delay way back during the "ranger nerf." In fact, that was literally the only component of the ranger nerf and it hit everyone. <b>CAs use their own delay (cast time) when determining proc rate. So there is no advantage to using a slow weapon vs. a fast one for proc frequency on CAs.</b> A month ago they did the same thing for spells.</i>You read it wrong. They did nerf it so you can only proc on the initial hit, but they also nerfed it so that it's normalized to your CA casting time. It is the latter that killed rangers rather than the former. You know how that 5% chance is normalized to the delay of your weapon? It now also scales to the "delay" (casting time) of your combat art. So if you have a weapon with a 50% proc and three combat arts, the one with a casting time of 3.0 seconds should have a 50% normalized chance of procing, the one with a casting time of 1.5 seconds should have a 25% normalized chance to proc, and the one with a casting time of 6.0 seconds should always proc.With a 5% chance to proc on a weapon you should not see it procing often. Ignoring haste, a 5% proc based on 3.0 seconds means that with a weapon with a 1.0 delay you should have a 1.67% normalized chance to proc with every autoattack swing. That means it should take 60 swings, or about a minute, before you see a proc. If you had 100% haste you'd expect to see it proc twice every minute.Likewise a weapon with a 5% proc and 6.0 second delay would have a 10% normalized chance to proc on every swing, so you'd expect to see a proc every 10 swings, or about once a minute. Twice a minute if you're 100% hasted.HISTORY LESSON ASIDE:How it used to work was that CAs would proc based off the chance for your autoattack to proc. Rangers were using 7.0 delay bows. With a 25% chance to proc damage poison, that would give them a 58.3% modified chance to proc on every bow attack. Now take a CA like Stream of Arrows (which still has a chance to proc off every hit, by the way, even post-nerf) where you have an attack going out every 1.5 seconds using the calculated proc percentage off the 7.0 delay bow. So instead of the 12.5% modified percentage that you should get off a 1.5s delay shot, you were getting a 58.3% chance. Which gives you 4.7 times the amount of procs you should be putting out.Consider that proc damage can be 15-20% of total damage even post this change and then multiply that by 4.7 times and you'll discover why it was nerfed.</div><p>Message Edited by SageGaspar on <span class=date_text>06-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:42 AM</span>

[Wabit]

<P>so a 2H with a larger proc will be overall better than a DW/1H with a smaller proc...  CAs only take into account the weapon in the main hand...</P> <P>but even in the instance of the 1.67% to proc on auto attack damage compared to a 5%...  if i was playing the odds the 1/20 chance to proc compared to a 1/60 chance...  yes you are hitting more often, but each hit is a 1/60 chance...</P> <P>now the more procs i have on me, like an assass apply poison, the DW starts to pull ahead... </P> <P>guard CAs aren't exzactly long cast times, but 100% hasted i'll end up missing on alot of swings...  the autoattack is qued to go off after the cast and recovery time, if a CA takes a total of .75 secs start to finish i end up loseing 2 pairs of swings every 2 CA's (thats even if everything is timed right), now a 2H 100% hasted you can time with ease to never miss a hit...</P> <P>i actully prefer a 2.6 or 3.5 delay 2H if i'm playing medoicer dps roll...  in theory 2 DW will end up equaling a 2H for the amont of proc per fight but thats with just autoattacking...  once you start accounting for the missed swings the proc rate for the DW decreases...</P> <P>in t7 there are nice 2H in abundance...  104 damage rating one from HoF, kettleleader (love the proc on it) from nest...  2 nice DW (with procs) aren't as easy to get...</P>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div> <p>so a 2H with a larger proc will be overall better than a DW/1H with a smaller proc...  CAs only take into account the weapon in the main hand...</p> <p>but even in the instance of the 1.67% to proc on auto attack damage compared to a 5%...  if i was playing the odds the 1/20 chance to proc compared to a 1/60 chance...  yes you are hitting more often, but each hit is a 1/60 chance...</p> <p>now the more procs i have on me, like an assass apply poison, the DW starts to pull ahead... </p><hr></blockquote>I agree with the stuff about missing attacks so you lose more procs, but this stuff that I quoted doesn't work out. 2H doesn't always have a larger proc, if you look at the imbued stuff the dual wields actually have exactly the same size proc as the two-handers.The 1/20 vs. 1/60 or whatever the numbers just means it'll work out to the same procs per minute, CA times aside. I really should know more statistics to say something like this, but I'm pretty sure that the one that gets in more swings should be closer to the ideal proc rate actually. Either that or they both have the same chance of being statistically deviant (i.e., not approaching the right proc rate). It's not really a gamble.Dual wield also gives you zero advantages for percent chance to get procs since procs only work off the mainhand, so you'll experience the same amount of procs whether you're using a dual wield or a two-hander if you're just autoattacking.Anyway all this stuff is theoretical, if T7 stuff drops for you like it drops for me you probably have plenty of two-handers for every tank you know but much fewer in the way of dual wields, and using fabled of either beats using legendary of the other anyday. And let's face it, the advantage isn't that much in either direction. Just wanted to point out a couple common misperceptions on delay caps and how procs work and all that, is really all.</div>

[Nastykarma]

<DIV>Dual Weild.  Without spitting out all of the info I parsed I will say that under the same conditions (mob, buffs, etc) DW parsed a higher dps that a 2h.  2 handers I tested even gave me a higher attack value but still had lower dps.  For example against basalisks one setupwas:</DIV> <UL> <LI>DW had a combined dmg rating of 105.4 (52.3 and 52.1), one weapon with a 5% proc in the 200's, atk: 1431, avg dps: <STRONG>191</STRONG>. </LI> <LI>2H had a dmg rating of 85.9, 5% proc in 200's, atk: 1460, avg dps: <STRONG>142</STRONG>.  [stats done with Combat Stats]</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's my info.  This same question had been bugging me a long time. =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lantana</DIV> <DIV>70 Guard</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV> <DIV>Thulian Destiny Crew</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nastykarma on <span class=date_text>06-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:15 AM</span>

[Wabit]

<DIV>how many mobs was the test on???  and how many times were you procing???</DIV>

[Crim001]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> <DIV>how many mobs was the test on???  and how many times were you procing???</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let me be the first to say, its just a simple question, no need to get all the statistics and math out. You're starting to get just a lil bit overkill there...</P> <P>It all depends on preference and money, DW will give more DPS, and with different, rare weps, you get more chances to proc different stuff. Only time I can really see myself going with a 2h is when they get up into the really nice stats and procs in t7.</P> <P>It's all depends on what you want to do. As an off-tank, I'm pretty sure DW would do more (more hits, more procs), but with a good haste, maybe a 2h will do more. Just depends on if you like seeing lots of pretty red numbers or lots of high numbers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Biggest downside to DW would be the cost and rarity of getting 2 good weps as opposed to buying just one at the same exact price, or only having to loot one item.</P>

[Wabit]

<P>no i'm serious, if it was on even 10 mobs and they averaged that much its a considerable difference...  more than i've seen in my own tests...</P> <P>if i was being an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] i woulda said something like i have 1H with a higher damage rating than that 2H...  from the sounds of it the weapons were kinda close to the same quality...  the only procing DW i can really find are the xegonite...</P> <P>i can't find good DW to test out with my current 2Hs...  and i'm not buying 3 xegonite weapons to compare with each other...  the numbers for these tests i find very interesting...</P>

[Domiuk]

<P>Deleted post as my point apeared to be complete rubbish <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ( i stated 2h of 105 rating were fairly easily obtainable , this isnt really true)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Domiuk on <SPAN class=date_text>06-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:10 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Domiuk on <span class=date_text>06-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:34 AM</span>

[Nastykarma]

<DIV>Tested about 60 basalisks (3 writs worth) for my info.  Fuzzy math aside I found DW to flat out have better dps under those solo conditions.  I was using Essensia and Sword of the Four Winds for DW.  2h was a legendary drop (name escapes me) out of HoF's Premonitions of Doom.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lantana</DIV>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Domiuk wrote:<BR> <P>Deleted post as my point apeared to be complete rubbish <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ( i stated 2h of 105 rating were fairly easily obtainable , this isnt really true)</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>HoF drops a 105 DR, AoAx2 drops a 108 DR...  or just ask one of the raid guilds on your server to let you loot one...  they'll probably just be happy to get a few plat for one (notrade loot blows)...</P> <P>to an earlier post, 2 DW are supposed to have a higher damage rating than a 2H...  dunno whay that is, but thats the way it works...</P>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Domiuk wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>Deleted post as my point apeared to be complete rubbish <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ( i stated 2h of 105 rating were fairly easily obtainable , this isnt really true)</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>HoF drops a 105 DR, AoAx2 drops a 108 DR...  or just ask one of the raid guilds on your server to let you loot one...  they'll probably just be happy to get a few plat for one (notrade loot blows)...</p> <p>to an earlier post, 2 DW are supposed to have a higher damage rating than a 2H...  dunno whay that is, but thats the way it works...</p><hr></blockquote>It compensates for their missing out on attacks more often so that it evens out. 2x quick attacks means you miss more during CAs than one slow weapon. Try timing dual wields going off at different times with at .8s delay a piece, just doesn't happen.</div>