Defense and how it is broken

[JNewby]

<DIV>anyone else have the same problem as me of being able to self buff way past the max defense... currently self buffed I can buff to 438 defense... the cap is 420 I belive.. my call of armorment is adpt 1 simply cause it is useless.. I tested it out and I have the same avoidance with or owithout my defense buff... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now I am sorry but that is just broke... that makes one of my used to be best buffs entirely useles.. not to mentiton the torub buffs or any other class that buffs defense... I think the cap needs to be removed or how this stat works changed cause right now it is useless.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sirlutt]

its a soft cap at 420 .. ie you get 0 benefit from anything over 420... thats why you dont see anything raise..its not "broken" at all.<div></div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>its a soft cap at 420 .. ie you get 0 benefit from anything over 420... thats why you dont see anything raise..<BR><BR>its not "broken" at all.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>its broken in the fact that I can slef buff WITHOUT my defense buff to the max... that is broken... that mkaes my defense buff udder junk... that is what I am saying

[Gungo]

<P>Do you know what a <STRONG>soft cap</STRONG> means jnewby? Buffing over the cap still provides benefits beyond what your persona window tells you.</P> <P>On a side note all skills are soft capped. Defense being the most widely used defensive skill. So its the easiest to find items/buffs for and cap. In example for all classes. Is foudn the most on items. Parry is a fighter scout only skill. Deflection is a brawler only skill. and protection/block is a warrior/scout/preist only skill</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 PM</span>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Do you know what a <STRONG>soft cap</STRONG> means jnewby? Buffing over the cap still provides benefits beyond what your persona window tells you.</P> <P>On a side note all skills are soft capped. Defense being the most widely used defensive skill. So its the easiest to find items/buffs for and cap. In example for all classes. Is foudn the most on items. Parry is a fighter scout only skill. Deflection is a brawler only skill. and protection/block is a warrior/scout/preist only skill</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>how is it known what benefits it gives? my avoidance does not go up so I would imagine higher teir mobs I owuld avoid more... this owuld be impossible to know for sure... unlike mitigation there is no number for avoidance just a percentage so its hard to tell if there is any benefit or what it woudl be</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

except the devs have stated that the only cap on avodiance for defense is 70% vs a blue con or higher and 80% vs a green con <P>is it a perfect system nope.. i personally do not liek the use of %'s in gaming.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 PM</span>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> except the devs have stated that the only cap on avodiance for defense is 70% vs a blue con or higher and 80% vs a green con <P>is it a perfect system nope.. i personally do not liek the use of %'s in gaming.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ok I will believe ya... jsut wish I could se what my buff does..

[Docimodo]

Even if it was he hard cap which it wasnt. Have you heard of the word DEBUFF?

[Gungo]

<P>hehe true enuff there is alot of defense debuffs out there too</P> <P>I am not saying its the best buff in the world but to say its useless and not worth using is probably not a good thing to do.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:45 AM</span>

[mochl]

<div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gungo wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div></div>except the devs have stated that the only cap on avodiance for defense is 70% vs a blue con or higher and 80% vs a green con <p>is it a perfect system nope.. i personally do not liek the use of %'s in gaming.</p> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">05-19-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:34 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>ok I will believe ya... jsut wish I could se what my buff does..<hr></blockquote>12 Defense will give you .61% to your overall avoidance (for a level 70 player anyway). With your 438 defense you should be getting around 22% (438 12 x .61) overall avoidance from your defense skill mod. You can see this for yourself by dropping Steadfast Stance (dont switch to offensive because as you know you get a penalty to avoidance for offensive stance) and Call of Armament. One small thing to keep in mind though.... Steadfast Stance Master 1 gives 28 to Defense AND Parry.. Parry will also effect your overall avoidance % at the same rate Defense does (12 Parry = .61% overall avoidance).Some more numbers for you that will effect your avoidance percentage-<ul><li>80 Protection = .61% to overall avoidance</li><li>25 Agility = .61% overall avoidance</li><li>12 Defense = .61% to overall avoidance</li><li>12 Parry = .61% overall avoidance</li></ul></div>

[Aaliamz]

<P>I suppose you could have the same complaint about any buff for a stat that is at or above the cap. </P> <P>For example, it often doesn't matter if I cast my STA buff as I am always at or over the cap when grouped (and on the cap solo). I still cast everything anyway as we have less buffs than we have concentration points. And yes, good point about debuffs.</P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aaliamzen wrote:<BR> <P>I suppose you could have the same complaint about any buff for a stat that is at or above the cap. </P> <P>For example, it often doesn't matter if I cast my STA buff as I am always at or over the cap when grouped (and on the cap solo). I still cast everything anyway as we have less buffs than we have concentration points. And yes, good point about debuffs.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>heh yeah the sta buff was gonna be my next complaint <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> debuffs dont matter so much in raid situations they get cured asap.. and having a buff just for the rare time it gets debuffed... is not that useful in itself.. but actually I jsut started going more agi insttead of sta since it is so easily capped</P> <P> </P>

[RipFlex]

<P>That the difference to a SOFT cap from a HARD cap.   If Mit/Avoidance is let's say capped at 80% but when you self buff and take in group buffs and it hits 90% by the numbers but shows 80%, you still have that +10% that will be factored into a DEBUFF to let's say -20% Mit/Avoidance, that places you at 70% not 60%.</P> <P>As for the Devs setting the cap at a lower CON is stupid IMHO, 80% or 70% whatever it is should be compared to WHITE con (EVEN to you).</P> <P>But I do not know the exact numbers or percentages, I simply take the posters word for it, the majority that believe until I get real numbers from a DEV or actually coder in game mechanics.</P> <P>Until then I scrape for every 0.1% in mit/avoid/resistances I can.</P> <P> </P>

[Aandien]

<DIV>its also a group buff -- which means its potentially buffing the defense of say, the second fighter in your group who has his avoidance buff on you -- which in turn is helping you avoid more by helping him raise his avoidance.</DIV>

[Sir_Halbarad]

Soft Cap: Amount when adding more points does give less benefits than before reaching the cap. (Example: Going from 450 to 475 STA gives more benefit (HP) than going from 500 to 525 STA) Hard Cap: Amount when adding more points gives you no benefit at all. (Example: Going beyond 550 AGI will not increase your avoidance - whether you have 600 or 1250 AGI doesn't matter) The goal of old EQ1 Players was to find the soft and hard cap...and discussing for ages whether the soft was the hard, the hard was the soft or whether there were no caps at all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Note: The numbers and values above are only used for illustration and have no reference to actual or future soft / hard or baseball caps. <div></div>

[BetaMaster]

<P>I mentioned the problem of defense caping too easy at fan faire and they said it was something they noticed and would be looking into.  I think it should be something to work hard to hit the cap on... frankly all stats should be that way.  Hopefully it will change.</P> <P>~Abomidable 70 ogre guard</P> <P>~Firebolt 70 erudite warlock</P>

[FightGame]

<DIV>One way they could fix it, would be simply to raise to cap, or in other words, pffer less avoidance for each point of defense, parry, or agility.....but that's probabaly not the answer you're looking for.</DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AncientElster wrote:<BR> <DIV>its also a group buff -- which means its potentially buffing the defense of say, the second fighter in your group who has his avoidance buff on you -- which in turn is helping you avoid more by helping him raise his avoidance.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>hahaha if I used the skill for that I woudlnt even cast it... they can tmake all guard buffs self for all I care.. since I am taking dmg noone else eneds it and that is why intercept lines are dumb as well <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> they woudl be nice however if I didnt tnak while in a group.. but when the heck does that ever happen

[Mentin]

<P>All skills are compared to your targets level.</P> <P>420 defense will cap against a level 70 mob. However to cap against a level 74 mob I think you will need 444 or so defense(6 * 74).</P> <P> </P>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mentin wrote:<BR> <P>All skills are compared to your targets level.</P> <P>420 defense will cap against a level 70 mob. However to cap against a level 74 mob I think you will need 444 or so defense(6 * 74).<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i can still hit that solo with common gear...  claymore belt, CoP, 2 dark rings, grizzfazzles shield,  puts me at 444...

[Huna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mochlod wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> except the devs have stated that the only cap on avodiance for defense is 70% vs a blue con or higher and 80% vs a green con <P>is it a perfect system nope.. i personally do not liek the use of %'s in gaming.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:34 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ok I will believe ya... jsut wish I could se what my buff does..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>12 Defense will give you .61% to your overall avoidance (for a level 70 player anyway). With your 438 defense you should be getting around 22% (438 12 x .61) overall avoidance from your defense skill mod. You can see this for yourself by dropping Steadfast Stance (dont switch to offensive because as you know you get a penalty to avoidance for offensive stance) and Call of Armament. One small thing to keep in mind though.... Steadfast Stance Master 1 gives 28 to Defense AND Parry.. Parry will also effect your overall avoidance % at the same rate Defense does (12 Parry = .61% overall avoidance).<BR><BR>Some more numbers for you that will effect your avoidance percentage-<BR> <UL> <LI>80 Protection = .61% to overall avoidance</LI> <LI>25 Agility = .61% overall avoidance</LI> <LI>12 Defense = .61% to overall avoidance</LI> <LI>12 Parry = .61% overall avoidance<BR></LI></UL></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are the percentages above only for over the caps?  I did some calculations the other day swapping out gear, etc.. and Defense gave more avoidance than parry did, maybe it was the quality of the gear that I was swapping out, but neither had agility on them.  Also, in my calculations 1 defense was equal to 7-8 agility, so that doesn't work out with your numbers either.  This is of course assuming that the percentages would change the same for both warrior classes, is that correct?