Finally some official word on "Guardians" from SOE. It's only taken them several months...

[digitalblasphemy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Zodian wrote: <div> <p> </p><p><span></span></p><span>Now to show some professionalism, I would like to make a couple a couple of positive suggestions that you guys may want to consider:</span> <p><span>1)</span><span>      </span><b><u><span>Gather objective input.</span></u></b><b><span> </span></b><span></span></p> <p><span>This can be achieved by posting polls in the classes websites for input. This allows SOE to offer solutions and get questions answered in a very objective form with no deviation from the topic. Since the question and the available answers are already posted.</span></p> <p><span>2)</span><span>      </span><b><u><span>Officially define the classes:</span></u></b><span></span></p> <p><span>I think this worked very good for the healer class. Once you define roles of each class and make them official, people will have a better understanding of what they can expect from each class. Do not confuse define with description. Everyone knows an assassin is part of the DPS class, but where is it in the DPS, Utility, solo-ability, etc.</span> </p><hr> </div></blockquote> <p>While customer feedback is crucial in MMO development, there must still be a line between player and developer. While players tend to know certain aspects of gameplay extremely well--in certain cases, better than some devs do--developers almost always have a broader sense of the game as a whole. If they don't, they tend not to be developers very long.</p> <p>Someone who plays a ranger extensively in raids may have many excellent ideas about what would make a ranger more fun to play on a raid. However, they may have virtually no idea how that character should fit in other aspects of a gameworld that involves soloing and grouping and crafting and 23 other adventure classes. When considering the input of such a player, we have to take all those other factors into consideration. That's our job.</p> <p>We value player feedback and read it every day on these boards and others, but to design the game through a series of polls would be a sure way to satisfy no one, and furthermore it would be an administrative nightmare. Games aren't built by voting; they are built by game designers. The customers then vote with their dollars as to whether or not they enjoy the product. Anyone looking for an MMO that matches every single ideal of what they'd like a game to be is going to be disappointed no matter where they turn.</p> <p>All that said, we don't define classes; players do. We essentially build tools (in this case, sets of abilities) and give them to each class. The players decide how they can best be used.</p> <p>Whenever we make some sort of balance change to a class, invariably someone posts that "you changed the definition of my class." Yet the closest thing to a definitions we've made are the class descriptions in the manual and on the website, all of which were written in deliberately general terms for exactly this reason. We don't want to impose arbitrary limits on what a class should be, so long as the tools available to that class function within the boundaries of an overall healthy game world. When they don't, we make changes to them.</p> <p>What players react to is not that we changed the definition of a class, but rather that we changed the tools through which players have made up their own definitions. A subtle point, perhaps, but one to consider.</p> <p>For example, we gave summoners a set of tools that put them far at the top of the DPS chain in nearly every situation. That was not the intended effect, and in LU24 we will change their toolset so that isn't going to be the case anymore. Yet there are already certain summoners wanting some sort of compensation for this change, in some cases because they had created their own definition of the class that included being the top DPS in every situation.</p> <p><font color="#ffcc00">When we changed guardians in LU13, there was angry feedback from some players who had used their earlier toolset to be the only viable tank in pretty much every situation (and an untouchable one at that). But we didn't change any sort of definition of the guardian class; they still fulfilled the same roll we specified in the descriptions we gave. <u>What changed was the set of tools they had, as well as the tools available to other tanks.</u></font></p> <p>Someone is bound to read all this and accuse me of trying to use semantics to weasel out of admitting that we nerf stuff, or will attempt to assert that "see, SOE has no vision for what their classes should be." I'm not saying either of those things. What I'm telling you is that no class can be defined in a few sentences or even paragraphs or pages. The definition changes based on who is playing the class and how they choose to use the tools that are available to them. <font color="#ffcc00">That's why the "monks are tanks! monks are DPS!" argument is both pointless and endless; it doesn't matter what answer we give, but rather what answer you make up on your own.</font></p> <p>You don't balance a game by saying that Class X is a 5 in control and a 1 in healing and a 2 in tanking and a 4 in DPS, and therefore every other class must equal 12 so that the game can be balanced. There is a chasm of subjectivity keeping that from being true, and it isn't just that players are on one side and devs are on the other. There are players spread out along each and every inch of that chasm, arguing that their decision on where to stand is the right one. How do you put that up for a vote?</p> <p>I've been an MMO player for a long time, and I understand the frustration that comes from major changes. In all honesty, we developers would rather not make them. But we must absolutely have the freedom to do so, or else the fate of this or any other game is sealed the moment it launches. Change is simply at the core of this kind of game, and always will be.</p><hr></blockquote>The next LU can't come soon enough for me.  Zerker FTW and I'm never looking back at this deadbeat class ever again.  SOE doesn't give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about our situation and we all know it.  Recent comments by MG attest to that.  What unique abilities we did have, have been siphoned off and given to just about all the other classes.  "Unsung Heroes" doesn't even cut it IMHO.  Low fat plain jane vanilla soy ice cream with nutrasweet would prob describe us better.  Sure MG, we have a defined role.  But in your words and in our perception which you have confirmed, is that you also gave the other fighter classes abilities that helped define our class.  Saying we have a role and then also saying your role is what you make of it, is utter crap.Good luck to the MT's out there who will remain Guardians.  This still remains a viable class for filling the MT role.  For the rest of the common folk who solo and do other things, consider betraying to the zerker class.  I hope someone crunches the Guardian population on even just 1 server to see the totals before and after LU24.  I have a feeling it's going to be noticeable.</div><div></div>

[Crim001]

<P>People like you annoy me.</P> <P>And just for that, I'm stayin a guard <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Personally, I don't blame the devs for hardly ever responding here. Even I had to take a nice long break because you guys were pretty annoying, depressing, and generally arguing over the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over etc...</P> <P>So, cya....and have fun over there on the zerker forums.</P>

[TanRaistlyn]

/agree with Crim

[Sirlutt]

when they fix the intercept lin es we'll be pretty much fixes except for our power usage.. and thats just something we need to control ourselves, in conjuction with other group members.. they gotta realise the more they go all out the more power we gotta use to keep agro.i love my guard.<div></div>

[Drulak]

I can't wait to be a zerker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Delil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> I can't wait to be a zerker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm with you on that one and to anyone that's happy to see us go we are on the same page I'm happy not to see you anymore. It's frustrating how this tooled up, grinding xp, raid junkies think everything is ok because someone else tooled them up and now they can take on anything ... oh wait they don't have to cause their buddies that tooled them up are there to kill for them. There's more than just raiding in this game, get a clue and look to all the aspects of the game.<p>Message Edited by Delilie on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:17 AM</span>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Delilie wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Drulak wrote: <div></div>I can't wait to be a zerker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote>I'm with you on that one and to anyone that's happy to see us go we are on the same page I'm happy not to see you anymore. It's frustrating how this tooled up, grinding xp, raid junkies think everything is ok because someone else tooled them up and now they can take on anything ... oh wait they don't have to cause their buddies that tooled them up are there to kill for them. There's more than just raiding in this game, get a clue and look to all the aspects of the game.<p>Message Edited by Delilie on <span class="date_text">05-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:17 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>i dont raid (yet) and am not tooled up over and above what drops out of any of the T7 instances anyone can get and having played both a Zerker and a Guardian can really say as a Guardian i feel like a "tank" more than i do as a zerker.  I love the fact that I can wade into a group of enemies with a decent healer at my back and hold the agro to ensure the rest of my group can do their jobs correctly.  I can solo any kind of "solo" mob just fine, and even the odd green ^^^ 5-10 levels below me .. i'm dashing.. daring and the ladies love it..</div>

[Timzil]

If I may summarize his post: We will not, under any circumstances, assume responsibility for our game.

[Berek_IronAxe]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Delilie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> I can't wait to be a zerker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm with you on that one and to anyone that's happy to see us go we are on the same page I'm happy not to see you anymore. It's frustrating how this tooled up, grinding xp, raid junkies think everything is ok because someone else tooled them up and now they can take on anything ... oh wait they don't have to cause their buddies that tooled them up are there to kill for them. There's more than just raiding in this game, get a clue and look to all the aspects of the game. <P>Message Edited by Delilie on <SPAN class=date_text>05-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:17 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>i dont raid (yet) and am not tooled up over and above what drops out of any of the T7 instances anyone can get and having played both a Zerker and a Guardian can really say as a Guardian i feel like a "tank" more than i do as a zerker.  I love the fact that I can wade into a group of enemies with a decent healer at my back and hold the agro to ensure the rest of my group can do their jobs correctly.  I can solo any kind of "solo" mob just fine, and even the odd green ^^^ 5-10 levels below me ..<BR><BR> i'm dashing.. daring and the ladies love it..<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Agreed - My main is my first Toon and is a Guardian.  I have been around since we where uber can not be touched pre LU13 to now.  I am not a Raid Tank, I do instances and occasionally Raid with our allies.  My gear is that T7 Legendary/Treasured and some Fabled.  Soloing was so Painful prior to these last few updates, now with AA's and adjustment to gear I can solo pretty well and I feel I can tank better than any other warrior/fighter class.  Every class has its bonuses and short comings.  Zerkers can dole out more DPS but we are better on Defensive, Crusaders are a great utility Tank, and Brawlers are fun dps tanks.  I have played them all and everyone of them can tank well but when it comes down to taking a beating and just keep on fighting my guardian can handle more but that is the design, greater Mit and HP Pool.</DIV> <DIV>I tip my hat to the Dev that attempts to explain the thinking behind the changes but like LU#13 it will fall on deaf ears and he hit it right on the head - everyone has his/her view on what the class should be.  I wish the OP good luck on the Zerker class but I believe you will feel unsatisfied there also.  To grow as a Tank is to roll with the punches and overcome the class short coming.  </DIV> <DIV>Now with the fix to the Intercept Line -I feel our shortcomings just got a little smaller.</DIV> <DIV>Guardians FTW.</DIV>

[DmZB]

<DIV>For awhile i toyed with the idea of switching my <FONT color=#ff0000>2nd</FONT> guard to a zerk.  But i just cant bear to do it.  Hes only 40, but hes just as much fun to play as my main at level 70.  Sure, there were rough times, and dark times.  Losing aggro to brawlers early on was probably the most discouraging.  But things have evened out, and i still tank groups ... imo... as good or better then any other class.  Part of my opinion is also based on grouping with my Templar, and the different tanks that i've healed, and the ones i tend to gain aggro from.  Will be very nice to have the intercept line fixed, i'm hoping it applies to the other protection skills.</DIV>

[Zodi]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=103359" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=103359</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please read the full thread before passing any judgement of what I originally posted. I  reality my original complaint was regarding how long it takes SOE to fix problems. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also want to make very clear that I am really amazed that Moogard with all the work he has to do took some of his time to answer my original post. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moogard... My most sincere gratitute for taking the time to replay to my post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zodian</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Briz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Timzilla wrote:<div></div>If I may summarize his post: We will not, under any circumstances, assume responsibility for our game.<hr></blockquote>Huh? I must've missed that post, because what I saw from Moorgard was him saying what he's <i>always </i>said - that sometimes changes have to occur in order to keep the health and integrity of the game. If they weren't assuming responsibility, they'd never fix anything! You can argue what has or has not been fixed, but I've seen devs own up when something has gone wrong. What do you want, a blood oath?</div>

[Briz]

<div><blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">digitalblasphemy wrote:The next LU can't come soon enough for me.  Zerker FTW and I'm never looking back at this deadbeat class ever again.  SOE doesn't give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about our situation and we all know it.  Recent comments by MG attest to that.  What unique abilities we did have, have been siphoned off and given to just about all the other classes.  "Unsung Heroes" doesn't even cut it IMHO.  Low fat plain jane vanilla soy ice cream with nutrasweet would prob describe us better.  Sure MG, we have a defined role.  But in your words and in our perception which you have confirmed, is that you also gave the other fighter classes abilities that helped define our class.  Saying we have a role and then also saying your role is what you make of it, is utter crap.<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Drulak wrote:<div></div>I can't wait to be a zerker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>To those of you who feel this way: I can't wait for you to be a zerker either. Less class whiners on this board make me a happy guardian. So, PLEASE take advantage of the respec, I beg you. Real men tank without a parser.</div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>when they fix the intercept lin es we'll be pretty much fixes except for our power usage.. and thats just something we need to control ourselves, in conjuction with other group members.. they gotta realise the more they go all out the more power we gotta use to keep agro.<BR><BR>i love my guard.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>fix our intercept lines? uhh yeah doesnt really matter they will still be useless.. when I am mt in a raid what good does taking extra dmg do extactly? in addition since it is group if there were another guard on the raid it would still be useless... </P> <P>in groups it doesnt matter either in groups it doesnt matter if the dmg is mitigated or not.. being that heroics are so easy... so imo this line is still useless... </P> <P>and we are still vanilla tanks.. however we are still the best raid mt... not by much over zerkers.. but [Removed for Content] its all I do anyhow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote:when they fix the intercept lin es we'll be pretty much fixes except for our power usage.. and thats just something we need to control ourselves, in conjuction with other group members.. they gotta realise the more they go all out the more power we gotta use to keep agro.i love my guard. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>fix our intercept lines? uhh yeah doesnt really matter they will still be useless.. when I am mt in a raid what good does taking extra dmg do extactly? in addition since it is group if there were another guard on the raid it would still be useless... </p> <p>in groups it doesnt matter either in groups it doesnt matter if the dmg is mitigated or not.. being that heroics are so easy... so imo this line is still useless... </p> <p>and we are still vanilla tanks.. however we are still the best raid mt... not by much over zerkers.. but [Removed for Content] its all I do anyhow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>intercede is raid wide there buddy.. and if yout MTing the raid then you dont need anything else.. no other guards have issues with Mting content, so I'd be really surprised if you do.  There is alot that can be done, not just with guards, with the intercept/intercede line and you and a few others might need to stop thinking "me me me me me" and think about how it affects the raid as a whole.  The idea is to complete the content with 24 poeple and those fixes will open up some other options for doing that.There have been times in groups with one healer where me being able to put sustain on the healer and have the damage mitigated would have helped alot.  Again your in "me me me me" mode thinking that everyone is an uberly equiped raid tank and probably 75% of the tanks are not.i dont think we are vanilla at all.. i think YOU are vanilla because as Moorguard said, people make what they want from the skills available.</div>

[Gungo]

<P>Its going to be real funny to see the zerker forums with all the complaining guards who switch over to zerkers and realise they still need GEAR to be an effective zerker. Watch as a bunch of new crappily geared Apprentice1 art zerkers try and hold agro or do damage.</P> <P>My only hope is they make the betrayal quest non repeatable O' the irony.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:28 PM</span>

[aislynn00]

<P>Oh, cry me a river, will you.  </P> <P>Guardians are in the best shape we have ever been in since LU13--and hell was I bored as the ultimate <EM>avoidance</EM> tank pre-LU13.  </P> <P>With working damage interception abilities most likely coming our way in the next LU and control spells being nerfed across the board (and keep in mind, guardians are dead last among fighters in that regard), the tank classes look more balanced than ever before.</P> <P>I, for one, am a guardian by choice and wouldn't dream of switching to any other class.</P>

[digitalblasphemy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Its going to be real funny to see the zerker forums with all the complaining guards who switch over to zerkers and realise they still need GEAR to be an effective zerker. Watch as a bunch of new crappily geared Apprentice1 art zerkers try and hold agro or do damage.</p> <p>My only hope is they make the betrayal quest non repeatable O' the irony.</p><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">05-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>In my case it's not going to happen.  I've already been playing a Zerker for many months and am not going into this blind.  The main reason I'm so happy is being able to retain my titles from live events and what have you, quest count, previous loot from raids and so on.  That and also being able to keep my main character name that people know me by.  If those weren't such a big deal to me, I'd have scrapped my Guardian several months back.I'll guarantee you, that once the betrayal has gone live and my toon is changed over, my time on these boards will dwindle considerably.  You make it sound like I was the only person not satisfied with that the Guardian class had been morphed into.  You know that's not the case but continue to take your cheap shots anyway.  Just as much as you'll be glad to see the so called "whiner" Guardians go, I'll be even more so as one of those "whiners" who is betraying.</div>

[Gungo]

Where in that post do you see the name digitalblasphemy? A little sensative are we?

[Ladicav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> Games aren't built by voting; they are built by game designers. The customers then vote with their dollars as to whether or not they enjoy the product. <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly!</P> <P>I voted by retracting my dollars. Those dollars went towards buying grass seeds and a lawnmower and let me tell you its way more fun.</P> <P>SOE ain't getting another thin cent out of me for this botchup of a game.</P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ladicav wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Moorgard wrote: <blockquote> Games aren't built by voting; they are built by game designers. The customers then vote with their dollars as to whether or not they enjoy the product. <div></div> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote> <p>Exactly!</p> <p>I voted by retracting my dollars. Those dollars went towards buying grass seeds and a lawnmower and let me tell you its way more fun.</p> <p>SOE ain't getting another thin cent out of me for this botchup of a game.</p><hr></blockquote>CIHYS ?</div>

[Ladicav]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ladicav wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> Games aren't built by voting; they are built by game designers. The customers then vote with their dollars as to whether or not they enjoy the product. <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly!</P> <P>I voted by retracting my dollars. Those dollars went towards buying grass seeds and a lawnmower and let me tell you its way more fun.</P> <P>SOE ain't getting another thin cent out of me for this botchup of a game.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>CIHYS ?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Wrote in my retirement post why you can't have my stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go complain to SOE why they made all my gear attuned - no drop.<BR></DIV>

[DanaDark]

<P>Im a guard... I tank better than a zerker...</P> <P>Eitherway, maybe you guys will be happy as zerkers! If so, fantastic!</P> <P>However, you should say you plan to go zerker because it is more in-tune with your play style rather than insulting the rest of us!</P> <P>I rolled a guardian because I want to be the BEST tank. Not just a tank, I want to be THE BEST ONE. If I don't do ANY DPS, FINE, as long as I have the agro I'm cool. I do A LOT solo and duo and trio and sometimes in a full group. Eentually will raid too!</P> <P>I hope that zerker is more appropriate for you guys and wish you the best!</P>

[Falthaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>when they fix the intercept lin es we'll be pretty much fixes except for our power usage.. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Fixes us?   It may "fix" us on a PvE server, but we're way broken on a PvP server.  Guardians are the world's cannon fodder, with a solo life expectancy less than bicycleists in the open, carrying gasoline, in an artillery attack.<BR>

[superdave]

<DIV>It funny now zerkers will be just like the guardian boards.  Have fun tryin to be a mt on raid with a class most wont even know how to play. keep crying adventually the devs will get ear plugs oh wait they may have already. thats the way to get there attention.</DIV><p>Message Edited by superdave on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Falthazar wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote:when they fix the intercept lin es we'll be pretty much fixes except for our power usage.. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Fixes us?   It may "fix" us on a PvE server, but we're way broken on a PvP server.  Guardians are the world's cannon fodder, with a solo life expectancy less than bicycleists in the open, carrying gasoline, in an artillery attack.<hr></blockquote>that might be so but the "afterthought" that is Eq2 PvP is lame at best, and bad for the rest of us who dont PvP at best.  PvP isnt of a concern to most people who play this game.  It was added as an afterhought to compete with WoW to keep the kids happy.They messed up when they didnt completely delink the PvE game from the PvP and use completely separate development trees for both games.  A number of the recent major nerf's were because classes were using game mechanics on PvP that was considered game breaking.  The changes made to fix that affected PvE just as much if not more than PvP.  Sure they can have PvP and PvE stats on spells and equipment, but they dont have 2 versions of things like how stuns/mez work, how procs work etc etc.</div>

[Kikena]

<DIV>Having assisted other classes being MT besides my Guardian I believe it right to say that Brawlers, Crusaders, and Berserkers can and do make effective MTs in both group and raid situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must also say that as far as aggro control goes versus other fighters that Guardians are without peer with the right Combat Arts and skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having a low survivability rating game-wide versus other classes, the player with their main toon as a Guardian must endure quite a bit to be a viable member of any group, let alone raid, force.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only with Legendary Gear or greater and at least Adept 3 quality casts/combat arts can a Guardian really provide value separate from other fighter classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A skilled player with less that this level of attire and ability can perform well, but is not seen as, and usually isn't, the right choice in being effective versus group mobs next to an equally equipped brawler, crusader or berserker. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raiding with less than legendary class gear, the rest of the raid is put at that much greater risk of failure and just increases wonder as to why the sub-class even exists. This is no secret of course. Yes Fabled items are optimal but for many, are not available. Especially those new to the raid game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Playing a healer class toon as well I would just as soon choose a Crusader to group with due to it's utility and diverse abilities versus a mediocre Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When those that enjoy and even love the Guardian toon vent their frustrations en-masse, it should not be overlooked. It takes a lot of stamina, (lol), as a player to play that Guard week after week to not only compete with other Guardians, but other classes to try and show their value.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Running through solo mobs was a bit of a problem for me just after the release of LU #13 but it has cleared and been great for a while now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thorougly enjoy running my Guardian through the game and I hope that most other Guardians decide to stick it out and play the change before deciding on whether the game is worth playing or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope as well that the EQ2 team will see fit to not raise the bar too far up that only a Guardian with Fabled gear can show any appreciable value, not more value, versus other sub-classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not looking for a nerf to other sub-classes or a boost to the Gaurdian, just a way to show that having a Guardian in group/raid is good choice, not a questionable one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good Luck and Good Hunting.</DIV>

[Meleania]

I play a...49 <font color="#ff0000">Fighter</font>      >Bruiser         >Monk42 <font color="#ff0000">Fighter</font>      >Warrior         ><font color="#99ffff">Guardian</font>35 <font color="#336600">Priest</font>        >Druid            >Fury28 <font color="#336600">Priest</font>        >Shaman       >Defiler32 <font color="#3333cc">Mage</font>         >Summoner  >Conjuror23 <font color="#3333ff">Mage</font>         >Enchanter   >Coercer20 <font color="#ffff00">Scout</font>        >Predator      >Assassin13 <font color="#ffff00">Scout</font>        >Bard            >Troubadorso as you can see..im well rounded <span>:smileyhappy:</span>I love my guard, she can take a brutal beating and keep aggro all at the same time ^.^ I consider the guardian the only <font color="#ff0099">*true*</font> pure tank, but I havnt played a bruiser, zerker, or crusaders but I have seen how they are through my experiance, I always prefer to have a guard as MT in the group /nodjust my 2 halfs of 1 copper<div></div>

[KhayosAD]

<P>Thought I'd jump in here as a Zerker raid MT and having our primary guild MT already in this thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The grass isn't all that greener -- Zerks need to DPS in order to maintain aggro and I can think of plenty of circumstances where a Guards skills can save a raid that I can't.  For the most part, it all comes down to equipment but some of the game-saving skills you Guards have actually made me consider betraying (bet you don't hear that much!)</P> <P>Guards better taunts, Zerks better DPS and in an MT role Taunts > DPS</P> <P>Thats all the sunshine I can fit up there at this point.</P>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brizzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR>The next LU can't come soon enough for me.  Zerker FTW and I'm never looking back at this deadbeat class ever again.  SOE doesn't give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about our situation and we all know it.  Recent comments by MG attest to that.  What unique abilities we did have, have been siphoned off and given to just about all the other classes.  "Unsung Heroes" doesn't even cut it IMHO.  Low fat plain jane vanilla soy ice cream with nutrasweet would prob describe us better.  Sure MG, we have a defined role.  But in your words and in our perception which you have confirmed, is that you also gave the other fighter classes abilities that helped define our class.  Saying we have a role and then also saying your role is what you make of it, is utter crap.<BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> I can't wait to be a zerker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>To those of you who feel this way: I can't wait for you to be a zerker either. Less class whiners on this board make me a happy guardian. So, PLEASE take advantage of the respec, I beg you. Real men tank without a parser.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Brizzy , where in that sentance is a whine ? " I can't wait to be a zerker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" ?? </P> <P>I love the way whiners whine about whiners.  (Yes i know its self perpetuating - , do i look bothered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )(hand in the air whilst i wrote that btw)</P> <P> I want to be a zerker as i mostly Solo , therefore the extra DPS will work better for my play style.  I love my guards aggro handling and damage taking , but i never get chance to raid (well very rarely) and much prefer using my lower chars in groups , so my guard just solo's.  So if you had to choose between guard and zerker for solo ability , who would you choose ?</P> <P>I want to respec to get away from real men without parsers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KhayosAD wrote:<BR> <P>Thought I'd jump in here as a Zerker raid MT and having our primary guild MT already in this thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The grass isn't all that greener -- Zerks need to DPS in order to maintain aggro and I can think of plenty of circumstances where a Guards skills can save a raid that I can't.  For the most part, it all comes down to equipment but some of the game-saving skills you Guards have actually made me consider betraying (bet you don't hear that much!)</P> <P>Guards better taunts, Zerks better DPS and in an MT role Taunts > DPS</P> <P>Thats all the sunshine I can fit up there at this point.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Taunts do absoluty no good at all when solo. Guardians are balanced to be Raid MT's with a 5% advantage in tanking ability. We are not balanced in any way for solo or small group activities since our DPS and Utility are both 50% less than other classes. With the changes to the intercept lines the utility might be a bit more balanced.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wasuna wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KhayosAD wrote:<BR> <P>Thought I'd jump in here as a Zerker raid MT and having our primary guild MT already in this thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The grass isn't all that greener -- Zerks need to DPS in order to maintain aggro and I can think of plenty of circumstances where a Guards skills can save a raid that I can't.  For the most part, it all comes down to equipment but some of the game-saving skills you Guards have actually made me consider betraying (bet you don't hear that much!)</P> <P>Guards better taunts, Zerks better DPS and in an MT role Taunts > DPS</P> <P>Thats all the sunshine I can fit up there at this point.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Taunts do absoluty no good at all when solo. Guardians are balanced to be Raid MT's with a 5% advantage in tanking ability. We are not balanced in any way for solo or small group activities since our DPS and Utility are both 50% less than other classes. With the changes to the intercept lines the utility might be a bit more balanced.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>HAHA you got to love Wasuna's creativity with numbers he sure does liek to make up fake %'s without any real backing. 5% better tanking haha. I also love the 50% less dps comment. When he had guards on his own boards show that a gaurdian in offesnvie build could be on the top 5 dps in raid parses. Or a gaurdian on his board showing he can solo heroic even con targets. But he still plagues the boards with his fictional numbers. Btw wasuna intercepts do nothign for solo still.<BR>

[Shizzirri]

Wonder how well it will go when the raid leaders tell the guardians ok throw up sustain/intercede on the tank for the taranix pull while bruiser tanks it

[Gungo]

the only intecept that is usable on fighters is intercede line and i doubt it will make a difference since a guard can reach 70% avoid 80+ mtiigation raid buffed. where as the most i have seen is an 80%+ brawler and mid60ish % mitigation. You might have raids where you want a brawler to avoid getting hit. Mobs with uncurable debuffs, teleport hits, etc but that is a rarity compared to the continuity of 80% mitigation vs a raid mob.<p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[Wasuna]

<DIV>I agree, intercepts do nothing for solo. Maybe that is why I referenced the utlity of Guardians and other fighters getting closer after the changes. Maybe, but I suspect you didn't really read my post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the other crap, I quote general numbers that reflect the overwhelming evidence posted in this forum. I can always look at one extreme example on all sides. I actually replied to those threads you mentioned and you can go back and look at what I said their if you feel it's relevant and needed to be brought back up here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians tank 5% better than other fighters (assuming AA builds towards the same direction and similar equipment)</DIV> <DIV>Guardians do 50% less DPS than most other fighters (assuming AA builds towards the same directions and similar equipment)</DIV> <DIV>Guardians have about 50% less Utility than most other fighters (assuming AA builds towards the same direction and similar equipment) (This might change with the intercept changes coming but I'll reserve my judgement until I see the final product)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say what you want Gungo. Quoting one example over and over does not make things right or even begin to cloud things for me. There were whole threads of brawlers talking about what they could solo and then whole other threads of brawlers telling others to shut the heck up and quit posting things so I see that as smoke and fire is close behind.</DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> the only intecept that is usable on fighters is intercede line and i doubt it will make a difference since a guard can reach 70% avoid 80+ mtiigation raid buffed. where as the most i have seen is an 80%+ brawler and mid60ish % mitigation. You might have raids where you want a brawler to avoid getting hit. Mobs with uncurable debuffs, teleport hits, etc but that is a rarity compared to the continuity of 80% mitigation vs a raid mob. <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>admittedly I think gaurds are [Removed for Content].. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that being said.. I can on raids and in group be some of the top dps... when I am tanking cause of damage shields I get and when not tanking cuase of group buffs... however when solo my dps suxors <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think mainly cause of lack of buffs form the group and it takes so darn long to kill things <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>only reason guards look good in group parsers is cause we get off all our big attacks then the mob dies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>that being said I wouldnt by any means upgrade guard dps...</P> <P>the whole problem for me is... heroics or so darn easy I can duo any named hereoic or heric with 1 dps... no healer... but then raid mobs hit so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard I could have 10000 healers and die <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> jsut a drastic change..</P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>when they fix the intercept lin es we'll be pretty much fixes except for our power usage.. and thats just something we need to control ourselves, in conjuction with other group members.. they gotta realise the more they go all out the more power we gotta use to keep agro.<BR><BR>i love my guard.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>fix our intercept lines? uhh yeah doesnt really matter they will still be useless.. when I am mt in a raid what good does taking extra dmg do extactly? in addition since it is group if there were another guard on the raid it would still be useless... </P> <P>in groups it doesnt matter either in groups it doesnt matter if the dmg is mitigated or not.. being that heroics are so easy... so imo this line is still useless... </P> <P>and we are still vanilla tanks.. however we are still the best raid mt... not by much over zerkers.. but [Removed for Content] its all I do anyhow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>intercede is raid wide there buddy.. and if yout MTing the raid then you dont need anything else.. no other guards have issues with Mting content, so I'd be really surprised if you do.  There is alot that can be done, not just with guards, with the intercept/intercede line and you and a few others might need to stop thinking "me me me me me" and think about how it affects the raid as a whole.  The idea is to complete the content with 24 poeple and those fixes will open up some other options for doing that.<BR><BR>There have been times in groups with one healer where me being able to put sustain on the healer and have the damage mitigated would have helped alot.  Again your in "me me me me" mode thinking that everyone is an uberly equiped raid tank and probably 75% of the tanks are not.<BR><BR>i dont think we are vanilla at all.. i think YOU are vanilla because as Moorguard said, people make what they want from the skills available.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>heh ok well whatever <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> making the intercept lines does not help me on a raid.. and doesnt imporve the class imo.. intercede is fine.. but it only wokrs once and has about a min recast... that will hardly mkae a huge difference... more importantly all the guard lines are gorup only... so like I stated it doesnt herlp much for raid... unless of course we had like a monk or zerker tank... on raids with guard in mt group... </P> <P>sorry I just think the intercept lines are dumb to begin with.</P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Its going to be real funny to see the zerker forums with all the complaining guards who switch over to zerkers and realise they still need GEAR to be an effective zerker. Watch as a bunch of new crappily geared Apprentice1 art zerkers try and hold agro or do damage.</P> <P>My only hope is they make the betrayal quest non repeatable O' the irony.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ehh zerkers and guards wear the same gear... jsut zerkers do 2x dmg <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanaDark wrote:<BR> <P>Im a guard... I tank better than a zerker...</P> <P>Eitherway, maybe you guys will be happy as zerkers! If so, fantastic!</P> <P>However, you should say you plan to go zerker because it is more in-tune with your play style rather than insulting the rest of us!</P> <P>I rolled a guardian because I want to be the BEST tank. Not just a tank, I want to be THE BEST ONE. If I don't do ANY DPS, FINE, as long as I have the agro I'm cool. I do A LOT solo and duo and trio and sometimes in a full group. Eentually will raid too!</P> <P>I hope that zerker is more appropriate for you guys and wish you the best!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yeah I dont waqnna be a zerker either as my main function is to raid tank.. grouping soloingt I could care less about... just this was about intercept lines and those are worthless in any environment... a few now give a couple nice side effects... to bad I cant use them or i woudl getr one shotted <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1 aoe bye bye tank</P> <P> </P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> DanaDark wrote: <div></div> <p>Im a guard... I tank better than a zerker...</p> <p>Eitherway, maybe you guys will be happy as zerkers! If so, fantastic!</p> <p>However, you should say you plan to go zerker because it is more in-tune with your play style rather than insulting the rest of us!</p> <p>I rolled a guardian because I want to be the BEST tank. Not just a tank, I want to be THE BEST ONE. If I don't do ANY DPS, FINE, as long as I have the agro I'm cool. I do A LOT solo and duo and trio and sometimes in a full group. Eentually will raid too!</p> <p>I hope that zerker is more appropriate for you guys and wish you the best!</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>yeah I dont waqnna be a zerker either as my main function is to raid tank.. grouping soloingt I could care less about... just this was about intercept lines and those are worthless in any environment... a few now give a couple nice side effects... to bad I cant use them or i woudl getr one shotted <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1 aoe bye bye tank</p> <hr></blockquote>are you talking about worthless now?.. or will remain worthless after they are fixed?If its the latter then.. wow... just wow..</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> JNewby wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote:when they fix the intercept lin es we'll be pretty much fixes except for our power usage.. and thats just something we need to control ourselves, in conjuction with other group members.. they gotta realise the more they go all out the more power we gotta use to keep agro.i love my guard. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>fix our intercept lines? uhh yeah doesnt really matter they will still be useless.. when I am mt in a raid what good does taking extra dmg do extactly? in addition since it is group if there were another guard on the raid it would still be useless... </p> <p>in groups it doesnt matter either in groups it doesnt matter if the dmg is mitigated or not.. being that heroics are so easy... so imo this line is still useless... </p> <p>and we are still vanilla tanks.. however we are still the best raid mt... not by much over zerkers.. but [Removed for Content] its all I do anyhow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <hr> </blockquote>intercede is raid wide there buddy.. and if yout MTing the raid then you dont need anything else.. no other guards have issues with Mting content, so I'd be really surprised if you do.  There is alot that can be done, not just with guards, with the intercept/intercede line and you and a few others might need to stop thinking "me me me me me" and think about how it affects the raid as a whole.  The idea is to complete the content with 24 poeple and those fixes will open up some other options for doing that.There have been times in groups with one healer where me being able to put sustain on the healer and have the damage mitigated would have helped alot.  Again your in "me me me me" mode thinking that everyone is an uberly equiped raid tank and probably 75% of the tanks are not.i dont think we are vanilla at all.. i think YOU are vanilla because as Moorguard said, people make what they want from the skills available.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>heh ok well whatever <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> making the intercept lines does not help me on a raid.. and doesnt imporve the class imo.. intercede is fine.. but it only wokrs once and has about a min recast... that will hardly mkae a huge difference... more importantly all the guard lines are gorup only... so like I stated it doesnt herlp much for raid... unless of course we had like a monk or zerker tank... on raids with guard in mt group... </p> <p>sorry I just think the intercept lines are dumb to begin with.</p><hr></blockquote>its a 30 seconds recast and man.. you need to read up on how some of your spells work.. i can only imagine just how hard your raid has to work to keep you up ... just about anyone can see some really interesting options open up in alot of situations with these spells.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gungo wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>Its going to be real funny to see the zerker forums with all the complaining guards who switch over to zerkers and realise they still need GEAR to be an effective zerker. Watch as a bunch of new crappily geared Apprentice1 art zerkers try and hold agro or do damage.</p> <p>My only hope is they make the betrayal quest non repeatable O' the irony.</p> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">05-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:28 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>ehh zerkers and guards wear the same gear... jsut zerkers do 2x dmg <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <hr></blockquote>not if they have things like class hats, relic armor and the like... they will still need alot of spells/gear to be viable.</div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Its going to be real funny to see the zerker forums with all the complaining guards who switch over to zerkers and realise they still need GEAR to be an effective zerker. Watch as a bunch of new crappily geared Apprentice1 art zerkers try and hold agro or do damage.</P> <P>My only hope is they make the betrayal quest non repeatable O' the irony.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:28 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ehh zerkers and guards wear the same gear... jsut zerkers do 2x dmg <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>not if they have things like class hats, relic armor and the like... they will still need alot of spells/gear to be viable.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was mostly referring to the guards who complained that only guard raid tanks can dps or solo well. So in crafted gear and all app 1 spells. Do you really think these newly formed zerkers are going to tank/dps much better then a guard? They are going to be right back on the bottom and need to get at least adept 3 and some quality legendary+ gear. Instead though these new zerkers>guard  tanks will just focus thier animosity toward other fighters who they percieve to be the better tank. Blaming class balance instead of thier lack of play skill and gear.<BR>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> JNewby wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gungo wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>Its going to be real funny to see the zerker forums with all the complaining guards who switch over to zerkers and realise they still need GEAR to be an effective zerker. Watch as a bunch of new crappily geared Apprentice1 art zerkers try and hold agro or do damage.</p> <p>My only hope is they make the betrayal quest non repeatable O' the irony.</p> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">05-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:28 PM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>ehh zerkers and guards wear the same gear... jsut zerkers do 2x dmg <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <hr> </blockquote>not if they have things like class hats, relic armor and the like... they will still need alot of spells/gear to be viable.</div> <hr> </blockquote>I was mostly referring to the guards who complained that only guard raid tanks can dps or solo well. So in crafted gear and all app 1 spells. Do you really think these newly formed zerkers are going to tank/dps much better then a guard? They are going to be right back on the bottom and need to get at least adept 3 and some quality legendary+ gear. Instead though these new zerkers>guard  tanks will just focus thier animosity toward other fighters who they percieve to be the better tank. Blaming class balance instead of thier lack of play skill and gear.<hr></blockquote>absoloutly.. my comment was for JNewby , not you.. I 100% agree with you.  Its the gear that makes the tank... thats why the fabled equiped Guardians see less problems with solo and DPS than a lesser equiped Guard... doesnt change just cos your a zerker..  and i think the guards who think that going zerker is going to solve their issues are mistaken.</div>

[Raider Hat]

Seems like whinners rolled the wrong class. Guardians are ultimate raid tank where being extremely good at your defensive role matters most. Zerkers however are farming tanks with combination of impressive dps and balanced defensive ability. If you don't raid, or ever plan on being a raiding mt roll a zerker and be happy. However if you aspire to be the ultimate meatshield for your group and raid, be a guardian. Sounds balanced to me.<div></div>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raider Hater wrote:<BR>Seems like whinners rolled the wrong class. Guardians are ultimate raid tank where being extremely good at your defensive role matters most. Zerkers however are farming tanks with combination of impressive dps and balanced defensive ability. If you don't raid, or ever plan on being a raiding mt roll a zerker and be happy. However if you aspire to be the ultimate meatshield for your group and raid, be a guardian. Sounds balanced to me.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Raider Hater... strange that somebody with such a good name can be so ignorant. I choose a Guardian in beta based on the class description and abilities. Through the modifications to the game I purchased those have been drastically changed by SOE and now I'm a one trick pony in that I can ONLY tank. No other fighter has that same limitation and I do not choose to accept it becasue my tanking excellence is not equal to the multiple advantages that other fighters have. I am a Guardian and I do not raid. That is my choice and by the marketing and class descriptions presented at launch of this game and the promise of balance when LU13 came out my choice of Guardian is the correct choice for me and I wait for SOE to meet their promise. If they choose not to they will lose my money. I don't play much now anyway so I'm getting close to giving up totally on SOE already.

[Ep]

I don't see how a guard who wants to betray to zerker, wouldn't be prepared, all they need is 31rares and they'll be outfitted with adept3's including rescue/intercede and 2/3 of those are t7 just about(19 actually) Or buy cheap zerker masters, If you even thought about betraying you should be doing this daily. As far as armor goes, it's really just going to be hurtful if you have relic armor, otherwise, get out your doomrage gear and use that for now, or trod along in scalelords(helm included since your class helm will most likely be guard only).I don't know i think i'm the only one who holds on to stuff. I'm still waiting for LU47 when epic 5.5 will be out and the first requirement is to imbue your lvl 20 class axe (for guards i think it was a shield) but thats over with, since they got rid of arch types, guess i can delete that annoying axe in my bank heh.But yea everyone who talks about, you guards turn zerker betrayers are gonna be da sook cuz you have app1's... i'm pretty sure they won't be running around with app1's... i'm pretty sure they've read the zerker sticked spells 1-70, looked at all the 57+ spells gotten them made into adpt3's, cheap masters or stocked up on adpt1's. And i'm pretty sure that if ppl say they'll have all these spell spams... anyone can just look at the spell book, sort by catagory and pick the highest lvl from that line(or icon since they are all unique).And i'm not defending the betrayers, in fact i think you should just tough out your class, whatever it maybe, my GF is one of the original coercers on my server, for 2years, she's waited almost as long for a fix... If she can tough out 16LU's or whatever it was so can any other class.My main point is, i'm sure if your going to make a big decision like betraying, your at least gonna be a little bit prepared. Oh and the grass isn't any greener on the zerker side, there are some abilities of a guard i'd like to have, but don't b/c thats all in the name of balance.Either way your role is how you define it, my angry zerker carries around a sword and board, not just any board mind you, a 3inch flapping wing buckler, i'm all about dps, i tank in offensive and up until recent with a 2hander, until i played with aa's and i dps more with a stinkin sword and board, thx sta line...<div></div>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raider Hater wrote:<BR>Seems like whinners rolled the wrong class. Guardians are ultimate raid tank where being extremely good at your defensive role matters most. Zerkers however are farming tanks with combination of impressive dps and balanced defensive ability. <STRONG>If you don't raid, or ever plan on being a raiding mt roll a zerker and be happy</STRONG>. However if you aspire to be the ultimate meatshield for your group and raid, be a guardian. Sounds balanced to me.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>While I dont think Im a whiner I had to respond to this. A truely 'new' player deciding on their character class at level 1 can not truely know if they intend on raiding or even know what raiding is. They would base their decisions on whats on these boards (heaven help them) and the class descriptors provided by SOE. The fact that the Guardian is the number 1 raid tank is really immaterial to, I would presume, the bulk of the population who dont raid. We do nothing well but raid tank. How is that NOT the definition of a one trick pony?</P> <P>As to betraying, I rolled a Guard in November 04 and a Guard he will stay. He may sit on the shelf from time to time, but he will always be a Guardian, gimped or not. </P> <P>FWIW in a group I do well, its only soloing that there were issues and they are slowly getting better. <BR></P>