Our Protection spells (sustain, stone sphere and interced)

[Thainos]

<div></div><div>I have asked this question a few times on the guard world channel and just got dumb answers. Hopefully someone will be able to help me here.</div><div> </div><div>I tested out our Protection line on another guardian while camping doing the claymore.</div><div> </div><div>He was sitting at 5100 mit self buffed and was just killing the green ^^^ in SOS and he was only takeing around 80 - 180 damage a hit max. (no biggie an easy soloable mob)</div><div> </div><div>My Mitigation is 5300 self buffed as well so i am going to take less damage then the other guardian. 60 - 160 was my average.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway i thought that when we protected people that when we intercept damage that we where suppose to adjust the base damage with our own mitigation. (was not the case)</div><div>It would have been nice if i intercepted the damage with his Mitigation even or if they did an average of both peoples mitigation but thats not the case either.</div><div> </div><div>It seems that all mitigation is cleared and you take tons of damage. Any hit i intercepted was around 1600 damage.</div><div> </div><div>My question is this.  Whos mitigation is the protection line of abilities suppose to use. Are these abilities working correctly or are they bugged. Personally i think  that if this is not bugged that this is a wasted line of abilities but if it is bugged we need to start getting the devs attention to fix this because these could be very valuable in raids.</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Thainos on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:59 AM</span></p>

[Finedo]

<span><blockquote><hr><div>we need to start getting the devs attention to fix this because these could be very valuable in raids.</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Thainos on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:59 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>they only nerf us and dont fix crap</span><div></div>

[JeffBship]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Thainos wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div>It seems that all mitigation is cleared and you take tons of damage. Any hit i intercepted was around 1600 damage.</div><div> </div><div>My question is this.  Whos mitigation is the protection line of abilities suppose to use. Are these abilities working correctly or are they bugged. Personally i think  that if this is not bugged that this is a wasted line of abilities but if it is bugged we need to start getting the devs attention to fix this because these could be very valuable in raids.</div><div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></div></blockquote><p>This has been reported and discussed long ago, I don't think they intend to change it or they would have done it by now.</p><p> </p><p>If you intercept damage, you do NOT apply your mitigation to that damage.  So you end up taking like 10-20 times the amount of damage you would have if the mob had been attacking you.  So if you use intercept then you end up dying, the mob goes back to mage or whoever and kills them...wipe. </p><p>The one exception is the sphere line.  It procs a stoneskin effect that blocks (absorbs?) damage...i.e. instead of taking the damage on yourself it just completely blocks it.  Only works once per person though.  It's great to cast prepull or just before a big AoE. </p>

[oldusrf]

<div></div>The possiblity of getting killed with the sphere line is almost just as easy, stone skin comes up for 10 secs on a 25% chance on the person who gets hit. It's not a guranteed absorbtion unless it is up but once it's used the stoneskin goes away can proc 5 for guardian and 6 for stone, right now the mitigation played in for stone sphere is 18% i think a adept 3, say caster takes 82% damage, AKA 18% mitigation, doesnt play in the fact of someones real armor. also if the stoneskin charges are all used up the sphere falls off. on the point of intercepting damage, our mitigation i think should be played into account, if i am taking damage, i didnt take my armor off to intercept so it should play into account right? think person you protection maybe should have their mitigation play in only on their part of the damage taken, Say i use sustain ona mage with 15% (dunno what they average) i should take 100% and they take 25% based on the skill, my mitigation should play on the 100% and theirs on the 25%, sounds fair to me. i don't know what the deal is, but i would like one of our major class defining skills actually usefull, and maybe i could use it once, thanks.

[JeffBship]

<div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=22288" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=22288</a></div><div> </div><div>Here's a link to the 15 page thread with all the guardian problems, this is listed in there somewhere if you want to wade through it.</div><div> </div><div>Bottom line:  known issue, not fixed.  Guardian signature line of unique abilities just gets us killed faster.</div>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>When I'm in a group with a single healer I always protect the healer. I usually end up getting the crap smacked out of me and at some point just get disgusted and figure a whipe is better on my temperment and take the spell off. I have also used the group version a few times but then the freaking mob does some sort of AOE attack and I get killed in one round.</p><p>Guardian protection is a joke unless your protecting another plate class which is just stupid.</p><p>As for the OP, the protection line has always given you a hit based on the person actually getting hit's mitigation. I assume that is as intended as this has been discussed for a good while and nothing has ever been done about it. I try and spread my buffs around to give others avoidance checks and such but I usually end up stacking everything on the healer hoping they atleast avoid some of the 2K hits I take for them at odd times.</p>

[Koilla]

<div></div><p>If u use the intercede line the following happens. If the groupmember u protect with intercede gets hit and your intercede procs, u will get ALL damage WITHOUT a mitigation check. So u will get a hit, or normally a bunch of hits, for an amount of damage that is equal to a hit u will get if u are naked.</p><p>i only use intercede on a groupmember that normally wont get hit, and that wont happen, so i wont use it. Intercede is suizide if fighting more than one mob and the others attacking the guy u are protecting. and that will happen very soon, if you are fighting social mobs that are not in an encounter.</p><p>ATM i am just using the hate reducer on some mage or scout, whoever is the highest dps-class in group and use the aditional mitigation check-buff on the mainhealer.</p><p>stone sphere does have the same effect like the intercede-line as long as the stoneskin hasnt procced i believe. so its also worthless.</p>

[Wabit]

<div>the intervene lines are again broken...  you're taking full damage of the hit =/...  had our SK take like a 25k hit from it tonight...</div><div> </div><div>when it was working it would factor in the person you cast it on mita/resists...  was actully a raid strat we used for big hitters in t6 while we were getting geared...</div><div> </div><div>to use it now is a deathwish...  if you lose agro you're best off hitting your group mita buff and taunting to get it back...</div>

[Berek_IronAxe]

<div></div>Wabitt is right on it.  Intervene is not even on my bars since it is constantly broken and an almost certain death of the Guardian.  Garbage take it off your bar - use the option Wabit has and the Protection line.

[Domiuk]

<div>Not even on my hotbars, if someone else is getting hit its taunt it off them before they die.</div><div> </div><div>As a main tank I find commiting suicide in an attempt to for instance save anything but the only</div><div> healer just simply kills the group.</div><div> </div><div>Frankly even if the healer goes down you still have a chance of killing the mobs before you die,</div><div>if you die the groups chances drop considerably.</div><div> </div><div>Im far from convinced one option is better than the other.</div><div> </div>

[cartmania01]

<div></div><div>I have thought the same... these protection skills is BS... why do we have a spell which would never be used of other than noobs?</div><div> </div><div>to intercept dmg taking full dmg from another group member is nonsense... always go for taunting it back cause the protection is crap and higher the chance of whole group getting wasted...</div><div> </div><div>i dont know why we have like 2-3 spells we cant use and its anoiying that SOE havent got enough imagination to make some usefull spells instead...</div><div> </div><div>Since we r crap dps, but best MTs we should have something which would make a second guardian in a raid as good as a second zerker... all other fighter classes got either dps or other functions taht make them good in raid even if they r 2...:smileymad:</div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>We're bound to get a revamp of these skills.  They are our 'defining' abilities, as we've been told.  It's kinda like a healers who's class definng heals are borked.  Then again, that's happened, too.</p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>We're bound to get a revamp of these skills.  They are our 'defining' abilities, as we've been told.  It's kinda like a healers who's class definng heals are borked.  Then again, that's happened, too.</p><hr></blockquote>ehh, these like never got used when they were working...  i'd rather have something decent be our class defining skills and scrap the plethera (sp?) of make the healers work harder skills...  keep intercede dump the rest...

[Kikena]

<div></div><p>Excellent post.</p><p>I missed the previous thread with the breakdown/ list of broken abilities/combat arts.</p><p>To be a Guardian is to know sacrifice for the team. To do us over like this is shameful.</p><p>I half-expect the Guardian sub-class to have arms removed and a shield permanently nailed to the toon's forehead labeled "Hit me"</p><p> </p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kikenata wrote:<div></div><p>I half-expect the Guardian sub-class to have arms removed and a shield permanently nailed to the toon's forehead labeled "Hit me"</p><hr></blockquote>fells that way sometimes...  but more along the lines of a "kick me" sign placed on out backs

[apotv]

<div></div><div>Yeah way back when I was reading my skill lines, and I asked my guild, "if I have all these save other people spells why arnt I more of an AT role type?"  I mean think of it... all out skill set is about other people taking less damage, of course it also mean that there would need to be a pally near by to pick us up after using them, and our dps sucks.  the damage absorbtion lines might make sence if it was at least mitigated a little better</div><div> </div><div>ah well just another woe is me post so I'll cut it short.</div><div> </div><div>on an entertaining side note i was in a grp, we were bored laying waste to just about everything, so the necro in my grp started pulling stuff just to see if I could avoid getting him killed.  most of the time I let him die... but thats because im just that way.  then I wondered who would die first if I cast my dmg absorb skill line on the necro... well... it was a close one but I won the race <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by apotvin on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:32 PM</span></p>

[aislynn00]

<div>The notion of taking some of the damage another character suffers on behalf of them, thus shielding them from serious harm while making good use of your own mitigation, is a good idea in theory.  In a single group, it would probably work, too. </div><div> </div><div>However, in a raid setting, it would not just work; it would work so well that it would trivialize tough mobs (instead of having to deal with a single tank who could potentially die because of damage spikes, you could instead distribute the damage across two tanks, thus minimizing the impact of said spikes).  That, in turn, would force SOE to develop content based on the assumption that any main tank group would have two guardians, one shielding the other, making a lot of content untankable without guardians. </div><div> </div><div>SOE do not want the game focused on one single tank type.  Hence, they keep the guardian protection lines weak, effectively useless in a raid setting.  Allowing the guardian to mitigate transferred damage, no matter whether his own or the target's mitigation is used, is immensely effective in a raid setting, and thus, it won't be implemented, at least not unless the percentage of damage transferred is very small indeed.</div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div> </div><div> ...they keep the guardian protection lines weak...</div><div> </div><div><hr></div></blockquote>Then take them out.  Remove them, and then begin development on a <em>real</em> class defining set of skills.  It's not like we'll miss them.

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div>The notion of taking some of the damage another character suffers on behalf of them, thus shielding them from serious harm while making good use of your own mitigation, is a good idea in theory.  In a single group, it would probably work, too. </div><div> </div><div>However, in a raid setting, it would not just work; it would work so well that it would trivialize tough mobs (instead of having to deal with a single tank who could potentially die because of damage spikes, you could instead distribute the damage across two tanks, thus minimizing the impact of said spikes).  That, in turn, would force SOE to develop content based on the assumption that any main tank group would have two guardians, one shielding the other, making a lot of content untankable without guardians. <hr></div></blockquote><p>i think i see your ideas with this, but why 2 guards???  if the protection lines used my mita, and only did 100% damage (not the 100% to me 25% to target crap)...  you'd be better off with an avoidance tank as MT, and a guard protecting him...  we already have like a 60+% chance to intercept damage...  just have a brawler put everthing into avoidance + HP, the guard put everything into mita + HP, both have the resists as needed...</p><p>now i'm not sure how well the brawler avoidance works on the yellow epics atm...  but if it scaled well it could be viable i think...  but this isn't what i want my class to become, just keep besige on a monk and lance in and out depending on my HP...</p><p>intercede was the best ability they put in the game and all fighters get it...  raid wide 100% to them 0 to target, useing the targets mita...  when it worked it could help beat a bad spike...  the best use was made of it after a hard hitting AE...  on the everyone run for you life call have one tank intercede and get out (not taking the hit yet), AE off, go hold MTs hand for a sec and take that hit for him...</p>

[Kikena]

<blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote:<div>The notion of taking some of the damage another character suffers on behalf of them, thus shielding them from serious harm while making good use of your own mitigation, is a good idea in theory.  In a single group, it would probably work, too. </div><div> </div><div>However, in a raid setting, it would not just work; it would work so well that it would trivialize tough mobs (instead of having to deal with a single tank who could potentially die because of damage spikes, you could instead distribute the damage across two tanks, thus minimizing the impact of said spikes).  That, in turn, would force SOE to develop content based on the assumption that any main tank group would have two guardians, one shielding the other, making a lot of content untankable without guardians. </div><div> </div><div>SOE do not want the game focused on one single tank type.  Hence, they keep the guardian protection lines weak, effectively useless in a raid setting.  Allowing the guardian to mitigate transferred damage, no matter whether his own or the target's mitigation is used, is immensely effective in a raid setting, and thus, it won't be implemented, at least not unless the percentage of damage transferred is very small indeed.</div><hr></blockquote><p>While I believe I understand the nature of the post I have to dis-agree that the mitagation transfer should be left weak.</p><p>Epic mobs are and have been provided a different set of engagement rules compare to that of heroic mobs and many Spells, CAs, and some gear state as much in their descriptions.</p><p>Named mobs have been provided abilities not normally seen in non-named as well.</p><p>Since some mobs are classified differently, the effectiveness, of Spells, CAs, and gear are and perhaps, should be modified VS. these encounters as they are not the norm compared to the mob population in game.</p><p>Again, the mitigation should not be virtually in-effective or a detriment to the PC but a tool, skill, ability used to enhance the Player Character's strengths and desire-ability to be played.</p><p>Maybe it's a fine line to have this work without tipping the balance? I'm sure SOE can make it work.</p><p>Will they make it work?</p>

[aislynn00]

<div>I think my post may have been misunderstood by some.  To clarify:  <em>I</em> don't want our protection lines to be weak; <em>I</em> want them to be useful.</div><div> </div><div>What I explained in my post is why SOE can't and won't allow us to mitigate transferred damage as though we were tanking.</div><div> </div><div>I can see alternatives, though, which would render our protection abilities useful and not simply another way of achieving a quick death.</div><div> </div><div>Our 55th level death prevention line?  Allow us to mitigate the transferred damage (so we don't die due to a damage spike), up the hate generation component to something like 1500 (so we will get aggro at least some of the time when our groupmate's death is prevented), and make the buff permanent until someone in your group dies and triggers the death prevention effect (so we won't have to choose between taunting the mob off, stunning it, or using our ostensible death preventer.)  Add a 10 minute reuse timer to ability.  There you go.  A useful buff which would actually save the life of someone once in a while yet isn't over-powered.  It would even have a use in a main tank group without being required.</div><div> </div><div>The Sentry line?  Let us mitigate the transferred damage at, say, 80% of normal effectiveness, then add a significant hate reduction component which affects the target of the buff--say, -1000 hate whenever damage is transferred.  That would effectively make the buff useless on a raid main tank, since it would mean repeated aggro loss.  It would also add a lot of value to the buff in a group setting.</div><div> </div><div>The Stone Sphere line?  Same as the Sentry line.</div><div> </div><div>The result?  Guardians turned into true protectors of their allies.  Balance restored.  Problem solved.</div>

[cartmania01]

<div></div><div>Guardian is meant to be a Guard... meant to be some1 who protect group/raid mates... but how can a Guard guard when his guard skills sacrifice him?</div><div> </div><div>i'll never sacrifice my life for a group/raid mates life cause if i die, all is screwed!</div><div> </div><div>a tank which have the ability to sacrifice his life for a group members life is a JOKE, cause the whole group would get blasted in 10-20sec when the tank is down!</div><div> </div><div>SOE need to think of how they can change our protection skills so they would be usefull without being imba...</div><div> </div><div>I would sometimes like to see developers try to see how their work works, just let them play for a week and let them see how crappy something is...</div><p>Message Edited by cartmania01 on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:36 AM</span></p>

[Formerly Bbert]

<div></div><p>If our protection line is weakened, just to prevent us from using them on maintanks, simple fix.   Use our mitigation to determine the damage taken, but make it so they cant be cast on a fighter class target.</p><p> </p>