Does a buckler make a difference?!?

[Meinen]

<div></div><div>blah blah blah....</div><p>Message Edited by kiked on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:09 AM</span></p>

[sammythebull]

<div></div><p>wow that's mind boggling to me. I'm currently in the wisdom tree so i'm not really familiar with the buckler line other than what i've read but i don't see anything in that skill line that would make you block/parry/avoid incoming hits 10 x as often despite having 500 less shield factor (or whatever the difference between your tower and buckler is).</p><p>I don't get it, what characteristic of a buckler or the buckler line would cause you to avoid all those hits, as compared to your tower? You sure you weren't in defense stance in the first set vs offensive in the latter? Cuz the results below is kinda how my fights go vs that particular mob in each stance.</p>

[Meinen]

<div></div><p>nope, defensive stance for both. I haven't had much sleep, so i don't really remember what i have read on the STA tree that gives it this, but i will post on it when i get some sleep lol. </p><p>Maybe its because its not so bulky as other shields, the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing barely covers my hand, so it adds to my defense.  i will read more on it again. </p>

[Lyrus]

when you get a chance could you post a screenshot of your persona window with a buckler equipped? This has me extremely curious.<div></div>

[MountainFl]

<div>Ok, The STA line looks awsome in a solo situation. How well does the Sta line help in a group situation?</div>

[Aar]

Interesting. What buckler, and what tower are you using?My guess is that this has to do with the block rates they have on shields. If I recall correctly, they capped the rate at which a shield can block with some percentage (Late in testing LU13 they dropped it from 20% to 12%?) I'm not sure how this translates into real avoidance, but there appears to be some modifier based on shield type that affects avoidance in addition to the protection value.It would seem that the skill % increases from the AA apply to overall avoidance, and not just the avoidance from the buckler, which appear to overcome the decrease of protection values.

[Darcblood]

<div></div>Hey, Does the aegis of scorn count as a buckler for this?

[stelle]

shhhhhh why would you even post this<div></div>

[Meinen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>darcd78 wrote:<div></div>Hey, Does the aegis of scorn count as a buckler for this?<hr></blockquote><p>its a round shield i believe, but i didn't try it.</p><p>As far as why would i post about it?  why not try and help those that are not sure what AP line to go down.  If you are worried about a nerf, well more than likely it would happen anyway.  But it would be nice if they just left it alone, since this is the first time guardians can actually be worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  </p><p>I will post up my persona window a little later and let ya know how it is with a group.   </p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><p>I'm not one to call for nerfs, but the first SS is cleary overpowered.  It'd be overpowered if monks could dodge that much, and we're supposed to.</p><p>That kind of avoidance and your mitigation/hp is a bit... hmm, unbalanced.</p><p>ESPECIALLY since they gave you guys Tsunami also.</p>

[Kienn]

<div></div><div></div><p>Gaige you just posted how you had 12k hp on the post regarding max HP in the guard boards......so you still want to say "with your HP" to us? Really now can't you move to another class board and cry about they are over powered and keeping Monks from MT roll?</p><p>k thx <3!</p><p>Message Edited by Kiennas on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:39 PM</span></p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Kiennas wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Gaige you just posted how you had 12k hp on the post regarding max HP in the guard boards......so you still want to say "with your HP" to us? Really now can't you move to another class board and cry about they are over powered and keeping Monks from MT roll?</p><p>k thx <3!</p><hr></blockquote><p>I was posting that having 12k hp as a guard isn't too impressive in KoS since I can break 12k.  I fail to see how that was bragging.</p><p>Moving on however, this is no different than the guardians bringing up brawlers getting a physical mitigation AA (which was removed from us) or guardians complaining about the bruisers phsyical mitigation buff (which was changed).</p><p>You guys cited that mitigation is your forte (which I agree with) and I'm just now citing that avoidance is our forte.</p><p>Look at the screenshots Kienas... do you honestly believe that a guardian avoiding that many attacks is intended and/or balanced?  Especially when compared to how much the same guardian avoids w/o that AA.</p><p>I mean come on.  Its pretty obvious that this particular warrior AA is working a little bit too well.</p><p>I'm all for you guys getting some boosts in needed areas, but I fail to see how 84% avoidance falls into any "needed boost" category.</p><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:08 PM</span></p>

[Aar]

So...isn't displayed avoidance supposed to cap at 80% like mitigation?How would one hit 84% if this is the case...or are we looking at a math error that is allowing exceeding 80%?And yeah, I can't see warriors having 80%+ avoidance not being rebalanced.

[Meinen]

<div></div><p>so you are saying now that we are on parr with monk as far as dmg taking, we should get nerfed?  i think this is the first time that guardians have been worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] since post LU13.  Monks are great, i love them and love having them in my group.  We can actually do some dmg, take hits (as long as they are frontal) and have a speed buff through AP's.  I haven't looked at Monks or bruisers AP trees, but i am sure you get something that is useful.  My HP is only a little bit higher and my mit is the same. </p><p>Unless you play a guardian going down this line, you would see that its not out of control or unbalanced.  With bruisers/monks you can take on 67^^^ with the same conditions that i did, but without the use of any AP's.  How is that balanced?</p>

[a6eaq]

<div></div><p>You may have point Gaige, if his avoidance numbers are indeed accurate, they do seem overpowered, but he is solo or so it appears in the shots.  If he were to group like that, Inflaming Defense would be practically useless as it would hardly ever go off adding hate to him as a MT.  That may not seem like that much of a big deal, but that is still an entire means for us to generate hate gone out the window.  Plus in Defensive stance we loose a lot of power due to the reduced Str we have, so he has less power to taunt and maintain agro in a long fight.  I don't think would be a good position to find yourself in as a Guardian MT for long hard fights.</p><p>If all is factual, it does address the concerns many, even you, have had for us not having much soloability.  It is a good way to solo and not die with a regular basis.  In small groups it would be terrific as well, but in serious grind groups or even raids, I think this might be self defeating for a MT. </p><p>So maybe this how it is supposed to work, maybe it is overpowered, that is for the Devs to decide.  I have not tried this line so I can not speak from personal experience, but If the OP is accurate, I feel this only servers to help us solo and not raid or tank any orange con mobs, so it would be pointless to use it in those situations.  JMHO</p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>kiked wrote:<div></div><p>My HP is only a little bit higher and my mit is the same. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Your mit isn't the same, or even close, and that is my point.</p><p>The best leather I've seen in this expansion so far is like 350ish mitigation while I've seen plate over 600.</p><p>So no, the mit isn't the same - and as I was saying... the avoidance shouldn't be either.</p>

[Meinen]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>kiked wrote:<div></div><p>My HP is only a little bit higher and my mit is the same. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Your mit isn't the same, or even close, and that is my point.</p><p>The best leather I've seen in this expansion so far is like 350ish mitigation while I've seen plate over 600.</p><p>So no, the mit isn't the same - and as I was saying... the avoidance shouldn't be either.</p><hr></blockquote><p>my mit is sitting at 3200 with gear that isn't fabled.  now maybe when i do start raiding, i will have gear in the 600.  but the majority of players aren't raid tanks and won't be in full fabled and legendary gear.</p><p>do monks/bruisers have full 360 avoidance?  cause i don't, i get hit hard and often (inflaming defense works well because of this) when i am in a fight with grouped mobs.  soloing is about the only time that it has really made a huge drastic difference.</p><p>Message Edited by kiked on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:05 PM</span></p>

[EasternKing]

<div></div><p>heh</p><p>6k Mitigation i hope you mean buffed Gaige cos im full T6 fabled T7 legandary and near enough maxed my wis miti bonus and i sit at 4.6k mitigation ..... fully buffed with healers / conj and crusader mitigation bonus's i can hit about 5.8k / 5.9k mitigation</p><p>So soloing guards mitigation sucks this AA line finally means we can solo "sometimes" an even con heroic that isnt a Caster mob ..... Agaisnt a higher level con mob it gets even risker because we dont have heals hell even a lower level ^^^ heroic still has a good chance of chewing a solo guard a new one ......</p><p>How funny it is i have this stam line and used it when grinding my exp and i said to a mate  " hell this line must be broken because i just soled an even con ^^^ fighter mob "</p><p>You monks ever feel your broken cos all of a sudden you dont need 2 healers spam healing your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] so you can beat heroic mobs ? ....and notice i say heroic mobs here Gaige not even named,.... ive not even tried a ^^^heroic named cos it would still own my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] .......monks and Bruisers have the feeling like i do ? off course not they beat ^^^ heroics all the time including named mobs.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Raz]

<div></div><p>someone please explain to me how having double mitigation as well as more avoidance as a plate tank in comparison to a brawler.  not asking for flames but just for a rational arguement for this. remember guardians have received the monks special dof ability as well.  also remember the days of the guardians crying foul when mitigation was added to the brawler aa's...which has since been removed. </p><p> </p>

[Siberia2]

<div></div><div></div>The double attack is fine, and skipping the soloing bit, do you have any idea what this will do to raiding? Warriors with this AA path gain a brawler's avoidance, and don't EVEN tell me brawlers can reach your mitigation without ample buffs. The top picture is how brawlers should tank, the second picture is how plate tanks should tank, obviously with different damage numbers.  I'll give guardians the benefit of the doubt when they whine and cry their class is broken, but getting godmode and saying "Now that's more like it, keep it the way it is" is downright ignorant.   Warriors also screw crusaders with this AA line. In SoE's eyes all tanks are supposed to be equal in both a grouping and raiding scenario. I don't believe that to be the case myself, but having something so clearly overpowered and then saying it's justified is ridiculous. Also, if you want to bring up the 360 block crap, it works really well when you get a bad avoidance streak and the 5+ epic mobs you are trying so hard to hold aggro on destroy you. Brawler's arn't the godly tanks you make them out to be.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Siberia275 on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:57 AM</span></p>

[Parasite]

<div>Considering self buffed stuff only ...</div><div> </div><div>Bruiser Avoidance has never gone over 80% As far as i know without some major buffs from other people</div><div> </div><div>Best Mitigation i can think having myself is about 3K with full fabled gear without any kind of buffs.</div><div> </div><div>Brawlers are supposed to have most hp and least power of all fighter classes ... Never seen this happen since most tanks get a HP or STA buff somehow and we dont.</div><div> </div><div>I Have never solo'd a white con heroic. This has become impossible since the proc nerf either ! Unless maybe for those with full fabled.</div><div> </div><div>Since last patches i don't even dare to take on a green namd heroic.</div><div> </div><div>All Fighters should have equal tanking capability's according to SOE.I Reckon we do more damage, But that makes us worse at tanking to, We can't keep agro on group mobs without proper agro transfers. We can't use tower shields, etc ...</div><div> </div><div>Long point short : Guardians want 60-80% mitigation and 40-50%ish avoidance WHilest Bruisers want 70-80% avoidance with only 30%ish mitigation.</div><div> </div><div>Greetz</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Meinen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Razal wrote:<div></div><p>someone please explain to me how having double mitigation as well as more avoidance as a plate tank in comparison to a brawler.  not asking for flames but just for a rational arguement for this. remember guardians have received the monks special dof ability as well.  also remember the days of the guardians crying foul when mitigation was added to the brawler aa's...which has since been removed. </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I have no explanation and i keep getting [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] from people about having posted this info.  I did it to show fellow guardians that this line is great for soloing.  Something that i have wanted since LU13 went live and took that ability away.  If they took out mit from the brawler AP's, then its cause they don't need it and never have, IMHO.  they do fine with what they have.  You guys are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing like we are going to take your jobs as MA's or DPS or as raid tanks.  guess what? most people rather have a brawler pull and guard peel anyway.  I know they can tank raids and as i have stated, i love brawlers, i have a monk alt and would much rather play that than my guard.  But i have to play my main right now so this just makes it a little funner for me when i have down time. </p><p>I haven't raided with it yet, but i did take on a 55 epicx4 (mentored down to 65) with a group of 5 and got owned.  The dmg is done, but if people still feel this thread needs to be deleted, send me a PM.  I will just say sorry now. </p>

[EasternKing]

<div><hr>I don't believe that to be the case myself, but having something so clearly overpowered and then saying it's justified is ridiculous,<hr></div><p>Out of the brawlers Crying here that has got to be my favourite line here .....so overpowered and you cannot justify it</p><p>Well her is a fact for you brusiers are OVERPOWERD</p>

[EasternKing]

<div></div><div></div><div><hr>I don't believe that to be the case myself, but having something so clearly overpowered and then saying it's justified is ridiculous,<hr></div><p>Out of the brawlers Crying here that has got to be my favourite line here .....so overpowered and you cannot justify it</p><p>Well here is a fact for you brusiers are OVERPOWERD my Raiding bruisers regularly parse 900 to 1100 dps ....11-12k hps 4-5k mitigation 75to 80% avoidence and this was before we got AA lines</p><p>they [Removed for Content] all over my scouts and my casters for pure dps and this is when tanking in fact the only people who can regularly out parse bruisers are conj / necros yet another class that is considered to be broken atm dps wise ....even with a coercer's hate gain hack on me and damage shields HtL and all the other tricks guards can use i always lose aggro to a bruiser without them breaking a sweat.</p><p>And as for this [Removed for Content] and wind 360o block / parry dont mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] as a plate tank i have a 90o cone on my front which is considered my front arc the other 2 45o arcs either side are flank and the other 180o arc is my rear. you try tanking when u have 15avoidence on everything but that 90degree cone ....it means that little that there are 1000 posts on the combat boards about brawler mobs being overpowerd because they are to hard to hit from any angle and you come here and have the front to say it means [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] all ???? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</p><p>And as for the other bruiser who has never solo'ed an even con heroic your chatting absolute BS or dont know how to play your class there is a massive post on your forums about which named and yes even which epic mobs have fallen to a solo bruiser</p><p>So take your overpowered [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'s out of the guard boards get fixed and then come talk to us about broken or "godmode"  </p><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:42 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:43 AM</span></p>

[DarkMirrax]

<blockquote><hr>kiked wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Razal wrote:<div></div><p>someone please explain to me how having double mitigation as well as more avoidance as a plate tank in comparison to a brawler.  not asking for flames but just for a rational arguement for this. remember guardians have received the monks special dof ability as well.  also remember the days of the guardians crying foul when mitigation was added to the brawler aa's...which has since been removed. </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I have no explanation and i keep getting [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] from people about having posted this info.  I did it to show fellow guardians that this line is great for soloing.  Something that i have wanted since LU13 went live and took that ability away.  If they took out mit from the brawler AP's, then its cause they don't need it and never have,</p><p><font color="#ffff00">/ If thats the case guardians have no need for avodaince then right ? u dont need it and never will you wear big heavy plate armour , how in the hell can u avoid wearing that stuff .( dont worry nurf inc for this without doubt)  you can keep avoidance if we can have the mit enabling us to tank better aswell please if that ok ? no didnt think so </font></p><p> IMHO.  they do fine with what they have.  You guys are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing like we are going to take your jobs as MA's or DPS or as raid tanks. </p><p><font color="#ffff00">/Yea MA whilst u gimped guardians are MT right ? why ? cos we cant do it cos we havent got the mit to do it .. just have some sence the only upper hand monks/brusiers have over you is aviodance and better dps other than that u guys still own us and always will.</font></p><p> guess what? most people rather have a brawler pull and guard peel anyway.  I know they can tank raids and as i have stated, i love brawlers, i have a monk alt and would much rather play that than my guard.  But i have to play my main right now so this just makes it a little funner for me when i have down time. </p><p>I haven't raided with it yet, but i did take on a 55 epicx4 (mentored down to 65) with a group of 5 and got owned.  The dmg is done, but if people still feel this thread needs to be deleted, send me a PM.  I will just say sorry now. </p><p><font color="#ffff00">/Surely u must see this is broken and not as intended ? no way can a warrior get 84 % avoidance , hell ive never even seen 80 % avoidance on my bruiser lol .. but all this posting is just bringing it to the devs attention sooner than they may have noticed ........ would just said ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :smileyvery-happy:</font></p><hr></blockquote>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><hr>I don't believe that to be the case myself, but having something so clearly overpowered and then saying it's justified is ridiculous,<hr></div><p>Out of the brawlers Crying here that has got to be my favourite line here .....so overpowered and you cannot justify it</p><p>Well here is a fact for you brusiers are OVERPOWERD my Raiding bruisers regularly parse 900 to 1100 dps ....11-12k hps 4-5k mitigation 75to 80% avoidence and this was before we got AA lines</p><p><font color="#ffff00">/Yea right ! of course they do and i rule the whole of norath with my naked half elfs at my every whim ! my point *ahem bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]* dont make us into something we arnt , broken stances , procs nurf hit our dps so lets not go there .... </font></p><p>they [Removed for Content] all over my scouts and my casters for pure dps and this is when tanking in fact the only people who can regularly out parse bruisers are conj / necros yet another class that is considered to be broken atm dps wise ....even with a coercer's hate gain hack on me and damage shields HtL and all the other tricks guards can use i always lose aggro to a bruiser without them breaking a sweat.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">/ What the hell you on ? a brusier owning scouts ?? mhahahahahahaahhaahahahahhahahahahahahaahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha</font></p><p>And as for this [Removed for Content] and wind 360o block / parry dont mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] as a plate tank i have a 90o cone on my front which is considered my front arc the other 2 45o arcs either side are flank and the other 180o arc is my rear. you try tanking when u have 15avoidence on everything but that 90degree cone ....it means that little that there are 1000 posts on the combat boards about brawler mobs being overpowerd because they are to hard to hit from any angle and you come here and have the front to say it means [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] all ???? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</p><p><font color="#ffff00">/ Oh come on FFS you guys have the mit to be able to tank we need the avoidace so we dont get [Removed for Content] flattened into the floor </font></p><p>And as for the other bruiser who has never solo'ed an even con heroic your chatting absolute BS or dont know how to play your class there is a massive post on your forums about which named and yes even which epic mobs have fallen to a solo bruiser</p><p><font color="#ffff00">/Before KoS and mainly when DoF was out when we havent been screwed due to everyone making up crap like this i COULD solo an even con Heroic (not a named)  barely BUT at the same time watched rangers and necros do it for fun with groups of 3 so yea we totally own dont we.</font></p><p>So take your overpowered [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'s out of the guard boards get fixed and then come talk to us about broken or "godmode"  </p><p><font color="#ffff00">/ Well thanks for the most BS post ever , do some reasearch or ACTUALLY PLAY A [Removed for Content] BRUISER before making assumptions .  </font></p><hr></blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:32 PM</span></p>

[Parasite]

<div>Ahum don't tell me that i don't know how to play my class ...</div><div> </div><div>I've seen more guardians and zerkers not positioning mobs with backs to the dps than any other tank.We bruisers do not solo white con heroics unless we are uber geared and mastered.</div><div>Could we do that ? Yes we could, Untill the ranger nerf that is ! Our procs were our damage for the bruisers at least.</div><div> </div><div>But hey take a look at the summoner class ...</div><div> </div><div>Anyways , More Bruiser oriented AA and please 3% DPS Mod for each upgrade from our group spell line while monks get 100% haste ? With procs nerfed ... This must be changed !</div><div> </div><div>Greetz.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[sammythebull]

<div></div><p>ok, i dropped the 6 silver to respec from wisdom to sta line to check this out and bought an ebony buckler. Aye, green, blue and white solo mobs are hitting much less with whatever in this line is causing the avoidance increase. but i tried a blue triple up melee mob and the fight ended about the same way they did beforehand (went a lil faster because of the nice double attack AA) but the thing was still hitting me at about the same clip as it always was.</p><p>i don't think this skill is overpowering, why would anyone care what any other class can do to solo mobs? there's nothing in the game gotten from solo content worth making a big deal about this.  Raid mobs are still going to hit like they always have, no self respecting Guardian is going to sacrifice mitigation to buff up resists with a sudden leap of faith in avoidance. </p><p>As far as "getting" Tsunami, i don't know many guards who consider it valuable enough to throw half our AA's in, the rest of the line blows.</p><p>God forbid something is implemented that makes this class anything more than painful and boring to play.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>sammythebull wrote:<div></div><p>ok, i dropped the 6 silver to respec from wisdom to sta line to check this out and bought an ebony buckler. Aye, green, blue and white solo mobs are hitting much less with whatever in this line is causing the avoidance increase. but i tried a blue triple up melee mob and the fight ended about the same way they did beforehand (went a lil faster because of the nice double attack AA) but the thing was still hitting me at about the same clip as it always was.</p><p>i don't think this skill is overpowering, why would anyone care what any other class can do to solo mobs? there's nothing in the game gotten from solo content worth making a big deal about this.  Raid mobs are still going to hit like they always have, no self respecting Guardian is going to sacrifice mitigation to buff up resists with a sudden leap of faith in avoidance. </p><p>As far as "getting" Tsunami, i don't know many guards who consider it valuable enough to throw half our AA's in, the rest of the line blows.</p><p>God forbid something is implemented that makes this class anything more than painful and boring to play.</p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Yea i agree and thought that it would only be effecting solo mobs however thats not the point , guardians across the land cry'd when our Mit AA was given so they removed it ... and instead they give guardians OUR [Removed for Content] avidance ! why thanks soe what a great deal when are you going to start looking at us please ? sort the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] procs and stances out at least !

[Shakir10]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">I'm not one to call for nerfs</font>,</p><hr></blockquote><p>This is funny</p><p> </p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shakir1065 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">I'm not one to call for nerfs</font>,</p><hr></blockquote><p>This is funny</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Now THAT i agree with :smileyvery-happy: Sorry Gaige

[Darcblood]

<div>I hate it when anyone calls for a nerf.  Oooh I can't do that so they need to be nerfed.  The 2 main groups arguing here should both know what it feels like when sony listens to it and BLAM-O nerfed...  Why can't people understand that unless your on the PVP server you are not fighting each other you are fighting the monsters.  I personally want everyone to be able to kick the monsters butts...  If a brawler can whoop some butt then more power to them.  I can usually solo tough mobs (not whites but if they can saweet! I want them in my group.), it just takes me longer.  In a group I want everyone to be able to dish it out, and in the event that they pull agro from me.  I hope that they can tank it until I pull it off.</div><div> </div><div>Stop calling for nerfs.  On all sides of the coins.</div><div> </div><div>On another note if we have an ability that puts us at an avoidance of higher than the cap, then it is broken and should be fixed.  They are called caps for a reason.  However if someone can get to the cap consistently, then great!  If we all weren't meant to be able to get to even caps then the caps would be lowered for mitigation on brawlers and avoidance for warriors.  You really want to see something, wait till mitigation gets capped at 40% for brawlers and 40% avoidance for them warriors. (not saying this will ever happen It's only a hypothetical statement) Then people will be whining.</div><div> </div><div>The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that even though we have the availability to these, not everyone will be taking them.  The people complaining in this thread are approaching this as if guardians get more AA points and will be able to have all of these abilities at the same time.  Probably only a small % will take the agility line so hardly anyone will have the Tsunami like ability.  The Stamina one will probably be more popular since we need more HPS anyway to survive and the final ability rocks. </div><div> </div><div>I think I had too much coffee this morning...  I am rambling.</div>

[oldusrf]

<div></div>The Sta line with the bonus to riposte and block is very obviously a bug, it can't be nothing more, i don't think this in any was done on purpose i chose the sta line becuase it sounded fun even if it stunk but in anycase i'm sure you will see this fixed adn when it's maxed ti will only give 4.5% to riposte and bloack each making a 9% bonus the the 70% to block like it says, as for the bug which i also have the math does not even come out right it says 70% 30% base and around 15% parry yet it only says 84% not a 115% so something is wrong.

[PhozFa]

So lemme get this straight its balanced to have tank a (guard) to have more avd than tank B (ANY brawler) while still getting twice the mitigation. Ok now i could see the uber avoidance for you guys if brawlers could raise thier mitigation. This thread is crying for a nerf i can't understand how you people think it isn't overpowered. Haven't you been nerfed enough? I'm not trying to be an [Removed for Content] but if you were smart you should of never made this public.<div></div>

[Quicksilver74]

<div>I disagree.   I don't think guardians shoudl be nerfed.   Our MT is a guardian.... and him having migher avoidance helps our raids do better, and keeps him alive, keeping everyone else alive, ending up with more metal chests for our guild, which ends up with me getting more bruiser loot.... so all in all I'd say I want Guardians to have 100% avoidance.   [Removed for Content] them, so that they may [Removed for Content] the rest of us!!!</div>

[TheHidden]

being i monk i have to point out how in error the statemnt about brawlers being overpowered is. until you have played a monk you can never appreicate just how fast we go down in health. it REALLY hurts. at lvl 67 i was in group witha caster. and tried tanking a heroic lvl 63 named.this happened..stun. ... i hit my destun skill. before it had finsihed casting .. i was dead. ..so yeah i lasted about 4 seconds. ..btw. our tsunami skill. protects only against auto attacks. and it does so afer update for only 10 seconds . spell damage gets trhough.combat arts with slashing piercing or crushing are not guarded agsint either. they get through.im here telling all you guys with brwaler envy the grass isnt so dang green on this side either. KoS has finally given brawler classes gear that we can use. but we still suffer from mitigation problems. take the time to find out the truth before stating we are overpower.. sheesh. already had one of my fav spells nerfed  by 40% in damge and added a 30 sec timer.share your experinces against nameds and mobs...oh btw... i cant solo a blue heroic mob four levels below me. and i have 3 t7 masters and am as geared out as i will get wihtout raiding t7 stuff.and this is the case for a lot of bralwers i know. argh at the uneducated assumptions.<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TheHidden wrote:being i monk i have to point out how in error the statemnt about brawlers being overpowered is. until you have played a monk you can never appreicate just how fast we go down in health. it REALLY hurts. at lvl 67 i was in group witha caster. and tried tanking a heroic lvl 63 named.this happened..stun. ... i hit my destun skill. before it had finsihed casting .. i was dead. ..so yeah i lasted about 4 seconds. ..btw. our tsunami skill. protects only against auto attacks. and it does so afer update for only 10 seconds . spell damage gets trhough.combat arts with slashing piercing or crushing are not guarded agsint either. they get through.im here telling all you guys with brwaler envy the grass isnt so dang green on this side either. KoS has finally given brawler classes gear that we can use. but we still suffer from mitigation problems. take the time to find out the truth before stating we are overpower.. sheesh. already had one of my fav spells nerfed  by 40% in damge and added a 30 sec timer.share your experinces against nameds and mobs...oh btw... i cant solo a blue heroic mob four levels below me. and i have 3 t7 masters and am as geared out as i will get wihtout raiding t7 stuff.and this is the case for a lot of bralwers i know. <font color="#ff6600">argh at the uneducated assumptions.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>And that my freind is the main annoyance , just because a few people are uber kitted enough to be able to do it (crab , liz , phay , gaige) doesnt mean everyone is the same .  Hell ive seen a guardian solo [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] id never last 2 secs against ! and yea having avoidance is great as long as you can have the mit to back it up , its great parry , parry , parry blam at 10 % health  ... dead compared to guardians hit, hit ,hit , hit , hit , 99.98 % BAH !!!!!! dammit stop moaning i rekon guards are overpowered TBH !!!</p>

[PhozFa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div>I disagree.   I don't think guardians shoudl be nerfed.   Our MT is a guardian.... and him having migher avoidance helps our raids do better, and keeps him alive, keeping everyone else alive, ending up with more metal chests for our guild, which ends up with me getting more bruiser loot.... so all in all I'd say I want Guardians to have 100% avoidance.   [Removed for Content] them, so that they may [Removed for Content] the rest of us!!!</div><hr></blockquote>ok crab you won me over with your point.. but does this mean we can out damage T1 dps classes now? Heck why not it would just mean faster kills!</span><div></div>

[EasternKing]

<div><hr></div><div>argh at the uneducated assumptions.</div><div><hr></div><div>Ok first of my main for the first 8months of this game was a monk i rolled a guard to tank raids period.... i still play my monk.</div><div> </div><div>Again this buff works in a frontal 90 degree arc only the rest of the 270degrees i have about 15% avoidence.......</div><div>Guards have double the miti of all other thanks ?? man you guys are as bad as crusaders for crying were so massively overpowered...... my guild Pally / zerk and Sk / bruiser / monk have all tanked every single raid mob i have baring pedasal of the sky and thats only cos we went once when i was level 70 and i tanked both dragons myself just to see if i could an no i didnt have any points at all in my stam line</div><div> </div><div>As for the guy whos telling me i need to get a clue about bruisers.... one of my best mates plays one hes level 70 full T6 fabled T7 legandary,.... i run a raid guild and im the MT for the guild also.  Its my job to know a class inside out and im telling you right now i see the combat logs and parse's after every raid and my brawlers regularly parse 900-1100 dps with ease and i mean every [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] raid so please dont tell me i got no clue about what im talking about. and this is after the massive "nerf " u guys got ...yeah right.</div>

[Darcblood]

<div></div><p>Why does this game even have different classes?  Everyone [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es because they want to be like this class or that class.  Just make 1 class that does everything and be done with this BS.  Good God!  it's a fricken game, if the monsters die...  That's good...</p><p>/sarcasm off</p><p>the point of my previous post wasn't to say that it's balanced for someone to always be capped.  It's balanced for everyone to be able to try to get to that cap. </p><p>I have the player account enhancements, go look at Darconus.  He is in no way even close to any of his caps, and I am not a raider (although I hope to be someday) and I am in full legendary and fabled stuff.  if I can use a buckler and get over 45% avoidance then I am a happy camper.</p><p>Man I'm moody today! </p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div><hr></div><div>argh at the uneducated assumptions.</div><div><hr></div><div>Ok first of my main for the first 8months of this game was a monk i rolled a guard to tank raids period.... i still play my monk.</div><div> </div><div>Again this buff works in a frontal 90 degree arc only the rest of the 270degrees i have about 15% avoidence.......</div><div>Guards have double the miti of all other thanks ?? man you guys are as bad as crusaders for crying were so massively overpowered...... my guild Pally / zerk and Sk / bruiser / monk have all tanked every single raid mob i have baring pedasal of the sky and thats only cos we went once when i was level 70 and i tanked both dragons myself just to see if i could an no i didnt have any points at all in my stam line</div><div> </div><div>As for the guy whos telling me i need to get a clue about bruisers.... one of my best mates plays one hes level 70 full T6 fabled T7 legandary,.... i run a raid guild and im the MT for the guild also.  Its my job to know a class inside out and im telling you right now i see the combat logs and parse's after every raid and my brawlers regularly parse 900-1100 dps with ease and i mean every [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] raid so please dont tell me i got no clue about what im talking about. and this is after the massive "nerf " u guys got ...yeah right.</div><hr></blockquote><p>/And again i will say you are talking crap , no way with our burst dps could we do 900-1100 dps UNLESS the fight lasts 20 seconds ... Your first toon was a monk NOT a brusier BIG DIFFERENCE.</p><p>please feel free to visit the brusier forums and read through all the posts that have been made about or broken stances , broken proc damage etc ... until then keep posting this drivel about how uber your guildes are !!</p>

[Xile]

<div></div>Quick question.  Couple of nights ago i looted this <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/item.vm?itemId=126819">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/item.vm?itemId=126819</a> .  Could this shiled which looks like a round shield be used in the sta line?  Would make sense if you could.  Cant use tower of stone with it so its not a tower shield.

[EasternKing]

<div></div><div></div><p>Well i cant get the link to work if your talking about the Draconic Deflector </p><p> ....that shield dosent work on stam line nor does it work with ToS ...Way to go SOE  plate class that uses tower sheilds .....the only class i seen atm that cant use a tower sheild is a mage as even one of my raid furys has a tower shield from HoF ....Then u gives us an AA line that we need a buckler for and LOL suprise Suprise you give us a hot Shield from Labs and it s ROUND SHIELD !!!! thats absolute comedy thanks guys.....</p><p>And as for Mr i cant accept facts are you still level 59 like your sig says ? and do you raid ? if so what do you raid ? otherwise stop commenting upon something you have no idea / experiance of.</p><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:16 AM</span></p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Sig is old im just lazy, and if your brusiers parse what your saying then post some for us please  ive read enough of people saying how uber we are. thx<p>Brusier - 70 , Swashie - 50 , Defiler - 38 , Ranger - 53 , Assassin - 60 btw not all that uber a line up but hey im not in an uber raiding guild where i can do 1000 dps though right ? well my assassin can and my ranger used to :smileysad:</p><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:47 PM</span></p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div>I disagree.   I don't think guardians shoudl be nerfed.   Our MT is a guardian.... and him having migher avoidance helps our raids do better, and keeps him alive, keeping everyone else alive, ending up with more metal chests for our guild, which ends up with me getting more bruiser loot.... so all in all I'd say I want Guardians to have 100% avoidance.   [Removed for Content] them, so that they may [Removed for Content] the rest of us!!!</div><hr></blockquote><p>Well you would think that since you think bruisers are a dps class and last I heard you hardly raid - your guild just logs your toon in to get brawler loot since you're the only brawler in EL <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>In other words go start a Chuck Norris thread and let us discuss gameplay.</p>

[Rah]

<div>Amazing isnt it!</div><div> </div><div>Rahge</div>

[sammythebull]

<div>I've read enough of this forum over the past year and a half to know that many of the folks (various classes, including we Guardians) who post disagreements to anything do so either because they either just plain old enjoy the act of disagreeing or they operate under the delusion that there's no such thing as a grey area.</div><div> </div><div>That statement wasn't really inspired particularly by this thread, it's just something I tend to think to myself every time I browse our forum.</div><div> </div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Quicksilver74 wrote:<div>I disagree.   I don't think guardians shoudl be nerfed.   Our MT is a guardian.... and him having migher avoidance helps our raids do better, and keeps him alive, keeping everyone else alive, ending up with more metal chests for our guild, which ends up with me getting more bruiser loot.... so all in all I'd say I want Guardians to have 100% avoidance.   [Removed for Content] them, so that they may [Removed for Content] the rest of us!!!</div><hr></blockquote><p>Well you would think that since you think bruisers are a dps class and last I heard you hardly raid - your guild just logs your toon in to get brawler loot since you're the only brawler in EL <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>In other words go start a Chuck Norris thread and let us discuss gameplay.</p><hr></blockquote>LOL Now that made me laugh :smileyvery-happy: Nice one Gaige ... btw you know chuck rocks the house cmon now dont deny it

[Echgar]

Locked at request of the original poster.<div></div>