Beta Guardians: Is KoS worth it?

[mastersard]

<div>I was just thinking about how little time i've spen on EQ2 since LU13.  I'm down to less that 5 hours per week.  I didn't even buy DoF, i was so upset with the changes.</div><div> </div><div>Now i'm woondering, would it be worth it, with AAs, new content, and level cap at 70, to pick up all the DoF, KoS, Splitpaw and Bloodlines add-ons?</div><div> </div><div>Thanks.</div>

[Ri]

<div></div>Though we share our new achivement system with the Beskerers and it isn't near as well layed out as the Brawler one I would still advise you to come back and give it another try. The system will add a new amount of depth to the game and you can also switch to a Beszerker through a upcoming quest I believe.

[Moontayle]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div>I was just thinking about how little time i've spen on EQ2 since LU13.  I'm down to less that 5 hours per week.  I didn't even buy DoF, i was so upset with the changes.</div><div> </div><div>Now i'm woondering, would it be worth it, with AAs, new content, and level cap at 70, to pick up all the DoF, KoS, Splitpaw and Bloodlines add-ons?</div><div> </div><div>Thanks.</div><hr></blockquote><p>You're seriously missing out on the game, neighbor. Did the game change with LU13? Yes, it made it better. Holding on to the past is the surest way to miss out on the fun that the future has to hold. The game is very fun right now and it's getting better every patch.</p><p>Even if you're not level 55+, this expansion is worth buying. You can earn Achievements starting at level 20 (which takes less than a day to reach) and the Achievements give you a tangible benefit to your class. I haven't had as much fun in this game since release.</p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div>Now i'm woondering, would it be worth it, with AAs, new content, and level cap at 70, to pick up all the DoF, KoS, Splitpaw and Bloodlines add-ons?</div><hr></blockquote><p>ehh splitpaw and bloodlines, well no real need there imo...  the rewards are basicly a vamp illusion, a mushroom pet, and a taunt that shares the same timer as our single target taunt, oh and the spiffy vamp only CA (works on a couple mobs in gates at least)...</p><p>DoF it'll keep your interest for 10 lvls with quests and differnet exp spots...  not a bad expansion if you just play it upto KoS (DoF while 60 is boring)...  KoS from what i've seen is alot better made than DoF...  not alot of outside group spots but there are dungons to group in...  outside there is alot of solo stuff to do though...</p>

[Xibi]

<div>Are you serious that they are possibly making a class changing quest?   That would be awesome, I would love to be a Bezerker.</div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>Its easyer to let Guards change to Zerkers than it is to fix Guards.</p><p>Funny thing is, its easyer for me to switch to DDO than it is for me to wait for SOE to fix Guards.</p><p>So there.</p>

[Crim001]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Moontayle wrote:<div></div><p>You're seriously missing out on the game, neighbor. Did the game change with LU13? Yes, it made it better. Holding on to the past is the surest way to miss out on the fun that the future has to hold. The game is very fun right now and it's getting better every patch.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">I don't know about other guards, but my 56 guard< my 15 bruiser in terms of "fun-ness." </font></p><hr></blockquote><p>IMO, DoF is rather interesting, but unless you are 50, or have people you regularly group with, its gonna be rather empty by the time KoS comes out, just as all the other zones have. Then again, with server merges coming up, this may change.</p><p>As for bloodlines, I heard that it wasn't too good, and as for SP, its a great place to go, especially after 50 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I haven't really been there much since they nerfed the drops in the zones, but you used to be able to get around 10g+ a run in a zone (which were painstakingly long though).</p>

[jinxedup]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>Its easyer to let Guards change to Zerkers than it is to fix Guards.</p><p>Funny thing is, its easyer for me to switch to DDO than it is for me to wait for SOE to fix Guards.</p><p>So there.</p><hr></blockquote>no reason to change from guard to zerker unless you dont want to tank RAIDS, just level a zerker quick solo and then switch to guard and poof-- instand raid tank since only guards can do it now

[Sir_Halbarad]

<span><blockquote><hr>jinxedup wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>Its easyer to let Guards change to Zerkers than it is to fix Guards.</p><p>Funny thing is, its easyer for me to switch to DDO than it is for me to wait for SOE to fix Guards.</p><p>So there.</p><hr></blockquote>no reason to change from guard to zerker unless you dont want to tank RAIDS, just level a zerker quick solo and then switch to guard and poof-- instand raid tank since only guards can do it now<hr></blockquote>Some things may hinder that strategy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />1. All your spells are reset to App I... quite expensive to get them to adept III / master I twice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />2. It isn't only guards who can raid tank at the moment. Every Fighter makes a great/good/fair raid tank, depending on mob.The reason why you see so many raiding guilds still using their pre-lu13-guardian-MT is because they geared him up and he knows what (and when) to do. Since no other class is better at raid tanking, there is no reason to change.All old raiding guilds (pre lu 13) had a Guardian MT because back then a Guard was the best MT hands down.If you make a new guild, gear a guild up and decide who will be MT, it doesn't have to be a Guardian, although the class still has a slight advantage. If the best player has a Zerker, the Zerker is MT, if it is a Bruiser, it is him...The problem is that Guards have no other role than raid tanking and therefore need candies.</span><div></div>

[Xibi]

<div></div><div></div>But how many raid guilds are on each server.  3 or 4 at the most.  And how many of them let more than 1 or 2 guardians tank high end mobs?   Not many I'm guessing because they need the person who is best equipped.  So at the most, 8 guardians get to tank raid mobs.  What do the others do?    This is exactly why guards want to switch to Zerkers unless you're one of those select few that get to tank.<p>Message Edited by Xibitt on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:05 AM</span></p>

[Crim001]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xibitt wrote:<div></div><div></div>But how many raid guilds are on each server.  3 or 4 at the most.  And how many of them let more than 1 or 2 guardians tank high end mobs?   Not many I'm guessing because they need the person who is best equipped.  So at the most, 8 guardians get to tank raid mobs.  What do the others do?    This is exactly why guards want to switch to Zerkers unless you're one of those select few that get to tank.<hr></blockquote>And therein lies the problem that most "others" fail to recognize.

[Rah]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xibitt wrote:<div></div><div></div>But how many raid guilds are on each server.  3 or 4 at the most.  And how many of them let more than 1 or 2 guardians tank high end mobs?   Not many I'm guessing because they need the person who is best equipped.  So at the most, 8 guardians get to tank raid mobs.  What do the others do?    This is exactly why guards want to switch to Zerkers unless you're one of those select few that get to tank.<p>Message Edited by Xibitt on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:05 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Bingo!</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Rahge</div>

[Noah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xibitt wrote:<div></div><div></div>But how many raid guilds are on each server.  3 or 4 at the most.  And how many of them let more than 1 or 2 guardians tank high end mobs?   Not many I'm guessing because they need the person who is best equipped.  So at the most, 8 guardians get to tank raid mobs.  What do the others do?    This is exactly why guards want to switch to Zerkers unless you're one of those select few that get to tank.<p>Message Edited by Xibitt on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:05 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Interesting point but lets take a look at the whole picture.</p><p>How many assassins are NEEDED at raid game: 1 or 2 (total 8 on server).</p><p>How many Necros are needed:  1 (seriously... 4 total).</p><p>How many Brigands:  2 is nice (8 total).</p><p>How many Mystics:  1, defilers are better to have duplicate of (4 total).</p><p> </p><p>I think you get what point I am trying to make.  The "ideal" raid setup is seriously all 24 classes.  You take full advantage of debuffs and have a well rounded crew.  To single out Guardians as the only class that gets limited selection on a raid is not fair to the other classes.  When is the last time you read "Oh man, we dont have a Conj on so we have to cancel raids tonight"?  So to be fair - there are 5-8 of each class per server that participate at the raid game lvl.  ONLY way to solve this is the creation of more raiding guilds, not the "un nerfing" of Guardians.</p><p>Anyone that thinks they will get more "action" in a raid setting as a Zerk is fooling themselves.  Why?  There are exsisting Zerks now that are in the raid game.  Raids dont even "need" a zerker but if included, 1 is enough.  So you are going from 8 spots to 4 spots.</p><p>Sounds like the answer to the problems is - Make your own guild and be a MT or 2nd Tank if you want to feel useful.</p>

[Rah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Noah wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xibitt wrote:<div></div><div></div>But how many raid guilds are on each server.  3 or 4 at the most.  And how many of them let more than 1 or 2 guardians tank high end mobs?   Not many I'm guessing because they need the person who is best equipped.  So at the most, 8 guardians get to tank raid mobs.  What do the others do?    This is exactly why guards want to switch to Zerkers unless you're one of those select few that get to tank.<p>Message Edited by Xibitt on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:05 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Interesting point but lets take a look at the whole picture.</p><p>How many assassins are NEEDED at raid game: 1 or 2 (total 8 on server).</p><p>How many Necros are needed:  1 (seriously... 4 total).</p><p>How many Brigands:  2 is nice (8 total).</p><p>How many Mystics:  1, defilers are better to have duplicate of (4 total).</p><p> </p><p>I think you get what point I am trying to make.  The "ideal" raid setup is seriously all 24 classes.  You take full advantage of debuffs and have a well rounded crew.  To single out Guardians as the only class that gets limited selection on a raid is not fair to the other classes.  When is the last time you read "Oh man, we dont have a Conj on so we have to cancel raids tonight"?  So to be fair - there are 5-8 of each class per server that participate at the raid game lvl.  ONLY way to solve this is the creation of more raiding guilds, not the "un nerfing" of Guardians.</p><p>Anyone that thinks they will get more "action" in a raid setting as a Zerk is fooling themselves.  Why?  There are exsisting Zerks now that are in the raid game.  Raids dont even "need" a zerker but if included, 1 is enough.  So you are going from 8 spots to 4 spots.</p><p>Sounds like the answer to the problems is - Make your own guild and be a MT or 2nd Tank if you want to feel useful.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Noah your missing the point.</p><p>While I agree with you, just based off of the debuff/buff abilitys of classes you are right in your numbers that are required, the problem is that we are the only class that must be in a group/raid to play while all the others you listed have the option to solo and have resonable expectaqtions to do it. Especiall if you look at the fighter branch alone. That I believe was the point being made.</p><p>Rahge</p>

[JeffBship]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Noah wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p> The "ideal" raid setup is seriously all 24 classes. </p><hr><p> </p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Yeah, your're probably right.  But how many raids have one of every class?  How many times have you started a raid when a contested is up outside of the normal raid times so you take whoever's online?  You grab everyone and make the best groups you can, maybe an extra guard is in the dps group.  Then somene else signs on.  Any melee or magic dps class at all.  Unless it's an easy mob...the raid leader says hey Guard#2 can you sit out and let Ranger#4 in for the dps?  Or Mage#5?  The point is that unless you have the convenience of having one of every class on your A team, you have to pick who to put in the raid and it's better to have any dps at all than an extra guardian.  Same goes with healers to a lessor extent.</p><p>If it wasn't for my MT job, I would have quit my Guardian months ago.  I have 20 times more fun playing my 20's monk or ranger.</p>

[Noah]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rahge wrote:<div></div><blockquote> the problem is that we are the only class that must be in a group/raid to play while all the others you listed have the option to solo and have resonable expectaqtions to do it. Especiall if you look at the fighter branch alone. That I believe was the point being made.</blockquote><p>Rahge</p><hr></blockquote>Plenty of other classes give up the ability to solo well for strength in group/ raid situations.  In any game, the class that "takes hits well" has never been able to solo good. </div><div> </div><div>When people select "Guardian"... do they honestly think they will be able to solo well?  Or are they making a "meat shield" character?  I know when I picked Guardian, I expected to just see scrolling red numbers of damage vs massive white dps spam.</div>

[Rah]

<div></div><div><div>Plenty of other classes give up the ability to solo well for strength in group/ raid situations.  In any game, the class that "takes hits well" has never been able to solo good. <div> </div><div>When people select "Guardian"... do they honestly think they will be able to solo well?  Or are they making a "meat shield" character?  I know when I picked Guardian, I expected to just see scrolling red numbers of damage vs massive white dps spam.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">I could take the hits well and as a result of my taking the hits well I could tank a mob that a brawler can tank just took me 6 x longer, as it stands now there is no way I can solo a mob a brawler can. Were is the balance in that?  Yet all classes can tank all mobs.....or so it has been stated by the most vocal of those classes that wailed and gnashed there teeth get the changes that disenfranchised our class.</font> </div><div> </div></div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Rahge on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p>

[Pry]

<div></div><p>Serious gamers stick to WoW.  I would rather go through Molten Core 200 times a week than go through any encounter in EQ2 for 1/2 an hour.   The PvP is better.  The tradeskilling is better.  The soloing is better on a massive scale...EQ2 is Pluto and WoW is the Sun.  Even grouping is better. </p><p>Even if you take into consideration any of WoW's "issues" (the queue times, the lag *although EQ2's is much worse*, the inferior graphics on avatars, etc.), it's still insanely more interesting and fun to play.  Why?  Because you don't *need* anything to succeed. </p><p>Some dimwit decided along the line that forced grouping was fun and good for the game.  Turns out they were wrong.  But instead of doing what was right, they continued along this path of egomaniacal SOEthink.  Hiowever, giving credit where credit is due, EQ2 is the best game out there for Roleplaying, bar none. </p><p>Which brings me to the point of all of this.  Whenever I feel like kicking back with a tall frosty one and hanging out with my room full of 200 pets and chatting non-chalantly with my friends (the few that are left), it's EQ2.  When I want to do cutesy little world events to get a snow globe or a box of chocolates, it's EQ2.  When I want to get serious about raiding and playing the game, or finding groups, or soloing...it's WoW all the way. </p><p>Because even when Blizzard nerfs me, it makes me better.  When SOE nerfs you, you're sub-par forever. </p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><div></div><div>I totally agree. The perfect raid has one of every class. The break down here is that when a fighter is not the MT they should bring other aspects to the raid to help it. What do Guardians bring other than the ability to tank? The only thing I bring t a raid if I'm not tanking is that I can Assauge a DPS class. That is a good ability but my buffs suck, my DPS is just horrible and if I protect anybody on a raid I should just go naked so I don't have to repair my armor.</div><div> </div><div>Please answer that. All fighters are suppose to be eaual tanks so why the heck does the Guardian have to be the MT? If you not the MT then what the heck do you do? Can't stunn heroic stuff. Can't make it die faster. Have truly terrible range DPS for ranged fights. Protection is so useless on a raid it's not even funny.</div><div> </div><div>What does a Guardian do when they are not MT?!</div><div> </div><div>SOE balanced the fighters for tanking and by god I want my fun stuff!</div><p>Message Edited by Wasuna on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:00 PM</span></p>

[Tomanak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Moontayle wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>You're seriously missing out on the game, neighbor. Did the game change with LU13? <strong>Yes, it made it better</strong>.</p><hr></blockquote>Aye it did. It made me shelve my Guardian and play my Warlock full time...having a blast now..

[Wasuna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Moontayle wrote:<div></div><p>You're seriously missing out on the game, neighbor. Did the game change with LU13? Yes, it made it better. Holding on to the past is the surest way to miss out on the fun that the future has to hold. The game is very fun right now and it's getting better every patch.</p><p>Even if you're not level 55+, this expansion is worth buying. You can earn Achievements starting at level 20 (which takes less than a day to reach) and the Achievements give you a tangible benefit to your class. I haven't had as much fun in this game since release.</p><hr></blockquote>Join a group where somebody else is tanking and you see what you add to the group. Nothing. Any other fighter can add a ton more than you and the other fighter tanking does it just as well as you do.

[Krooner]

<div></div><div></div>Moontayle wrote:<div></div><p>You're seriously missing out on the game, neighbor. Did the game change with LU13? Yes, it made it better. <strong>Holding on to the past is the surest way to miss out on the fun that the future has to hold</strong>. The game is very fun right now and it's getting better every patch.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Yeahhh Umm Im getting really sick and tired of this attitude.  SOE did nothing at the onset of LU13 to make other classes BETTER.  They simply killed one class off for 3 months and everyone else felt better.  Then they throw guardians a few shocks from a DEFIB just to gt a heart beat.  Are they fixed NO are they equal to other <strong>FIGHTERS.  </strong>NO.  Are they equal to others <strong>TANKS</strong>... according to MG  YES.</p><p>They "BALANCED" one part of the archtype and not the other.  THAT is what a large protion of guardians have a problem with.</p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:25 PM</span></p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Are they equal to others <strong>TANKS</strong>... according to MG  YES.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Seriously, tho, are they equal tanks?  Solo, which i would consider tanking, since by default you have agro, there is no comparison, SK and Guard can't do it well, or effeciently.  Groups, Monks/Bruiser excell, great DPS, lots of utility.  Pally & Zerker are great.  Again, SK and Guard, not good at all.  Raids, Guardian (so i'm told) is the best by a small margin, pally and Zerk can do the job well, monk/bruiser is good for single target, great MAs, and poor SKs come in dead last again.</p><p>So what exactly did LU13 achieve?  A reassignment of roles, to be sure, but still the same old gaps in utility, solo-ability, DPS, and tanking, only now the heirarchy is rearranged.</p>

[Kienn]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>To tell you the truth i'm not sure why there are so many complaints about Guaridan changes and the Avoidance nerf. </div><div>yes i felt like a god when my Mitigation + Avoidance was @ 100% due to Group makeup and HO's but it took that rush you feel when you see your hp drop and some how u manage to pull though on an incredibly difficult encounter.</div><div> </div><div>If people want to play on god mod RPG go buy Morrow Wind do some file editing and you can play a Warrior that hit for 5k with weapons that proc for 10k and take 0 dmg at the same time. :smileytongue:</div><div> </div><div>Now i was initally disappointed when the changes came about after LU13 but then i learned to adept to the changes. Our class is still one of the best classes at any given situation to stablize incoming damage.</div><div> </div><div>Also our offensive stance + proper STR build allow us to do decent DPS if we aren't main tanking AND debuff the mob so the MT takes less damage.</div><div> </div><div>If you want to solo like a SK or a Necro then Roll one and do that on the side. :smileytongue:</div><div> </div><div>But most of us Guardian's that have been playing this game from launch of EQ2 knew exactly what our job description was and know exactly what we were giving up in order to fill that job rolls.</div><div> </div><div>I didn't want to FD on pull and i didn't want to be able to heal 90% of my HP and hit for 3000 at the same time with my HT</div><div> </div><div>I wanted to be able to look at my combat log and see a barrage of red for as low red numbers as possible.</div><div> </div><div>To answer your question Guardians have always been an amazing class to play pre-DoF, post-DoF, and yes even in KoS if what you want to do is what the job is meant to do. :smileyhappy:</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Kiennas on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:31 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Kiennas on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:31 AM</span></p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>I would disagree with some of that, Mastersardis.</p><p>Guardians dont solo very well at all. Its not that your DPS is that much worse that Paladins in single target, its that Paladins can heal and ward themselves. Guards need better utility and a boost in DPS.</p><p>SK's are better soloers than Palys. They do more DPS and have roughly the same self healing capability as Palys. What they dont have is grp heals.</p><p>In terms of soloing, it probably goes like this:</p><p>Bruiser > Monk > Berserker > Sk > Paly > Guard.</p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>Uziel, i agree 100%.  I think ALL plate tanks need a boost in DPS.  I think ALL plate tanks need that extra utility that helps them out solo, and gives them another roll outside of tanking.  If Monks and Bruisers can generate high DPS, then so should we.  If they get all the neat toys and skills, so should we.</p><p>We've been pacifist.  Guardians are tanks, even out of the game.  We're trying to tank all the hits SOE is throwing at us!  We're being forced into the "You can tank, so you cant DPS" role, while other fighters get the best of all 3 worlds!  They can solo WELL, they can tank WELL, and they have GREAT utility.  It's the old EQlive mentality.  This is a whole new game!  SOE needs to break out of the old way of doing things...think outside the box.  If leather wearers can tank, then plate wearers can DPS, right?  Or do only Monks and Bruisers get that kind of stuff?</p><p>Is this ok with Palladins?  I hope to God not.  It's not ok with me as a Guardian, either.</p><p>If SKs can solo well, great!  I highly doublt it though, based on what i've read on their boards.  They've been hammered worse than Guaridans by SOE.  The only reason it's not as well known is because not as many people played SK as did Guardian pre LU13.</p><p>LU13 was supposed to balance us as tanks.  Ok, great, that's done (not really).  Now lets finish the job.  Balance us on EVERY level.  We need a non-MT/MA job.  Something to do when not tanking.  Let us solo well.  Bump our Off stance to allow us better DPS.  If we use it while tanking, so what?  Monks do!</p><p>You may think i'm just whining about my class.  Maybe i am.  I know other posters who whined for 5 months and 7k posts, and their class is now one of the two best fighters in the game.  And mine has been obliterated.  That is NOT ok with me.  I paid for this game, it's my entertainment.  SOE has robbed me of my enjoyment, and i want the situation corrected.</p>

[Krooner]

<div>Guys I hate to say this.  But I think SOE is taking a certain stance with the inclusion of the AA's.</div><div> </div><div>Look at the arts and what is being said about them.  Im sure after KoS and the AA's go live people who complain about not being able to solo or some other complaint will get the following responce:</div><div> </div><div>Im sorry your having problems.  Your class is working as intended.  If you feel you need better ( Solo ability, Tanking ability, utility .. what ever) then you should choose the (X) line of your AA's.</div><div> </div><div>Face it guys they are setting up the argument so that they never have to deal with this issue directly.</div><div> </div><div>I just hope that people dont spend 3 months grinding out levels and AA's and the devs coming back saying.... Yeahhhh this is too good... Whack.</div><div>And all that effort is for not.</div><div> </div><div>Designers if your going to include something like this you better make sure no one fools with it.  And if you do people should get a <font color="#0099ff">/respec aa</font> option !</div><div> </div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><div>I'm glad someone brought up the point that only a few tanks will actually ever get to tank in raids! :smileytongue:</div><div> </div><div>I've been trying to get that point accross all the tank classes FOREVER! It doesnt matter how leet your tank skills are, if you're not need at the raid, or if there is another guard, then your cooked.</div><div> </div><div>Why? because most of the raid tanks out there are guards, so your competition in raid tanking isnt Palys or Berserkers, its your own class.</div><div> </div><div>Even with my grp heals, wards, and leet miti buffs, palys sit out quite often. I even heard that NPU doesnt have a single paly on their rosters!</div><div> </div><div>Fighters are sitting out on raids and grps more often than any other class. Its not tanking boosts we need, its utility that we need. Our DPS should be lifted, at least to the lvl of monks and bruisers. I argued until I was blue in the keyboard, for monks and bruisers to be given a tanking boost, which they have..and in some cases tank even better than plates.</div><div> </div><div>We need a reason to be in a grp setting. Debuffs, Buffs, DPS, utility...something that says, hmn..we need a  (insert tank class) in this raid.</div><div> </div><div>This affects all of us fighters. :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[mastersard]

<div>Hell Yeah!  Another convert!</div><div> </div><div>(Welcome to the dark side, Mr. Pally!)</div>

[Griffith1026]

<div><blockquote>Honestly the gaurdian just needs a Boost in 1 of 2 factos . either Dps or Defense . thats all . its just right in the middle that it doesnt really give the gaurdian a chance to out shine anyone else at the moment (Out shine anyone else in the fighters class i mean , obviously a Enchanter cant tank like a Gaurdian can but you know what i mean )</blockquote></div>

[mastersard]

<div><blockquote><hr>Griffith1026 wrote:<div><blockquote>Honestly the gaurdian just needs a Boost in 1 of 2 factos . either Dps or Defense . thats all . its just right in the middle that it doesnt really give the gaurdian a chance to out shine anyone else at the moment (Out shine anyone else in the fighters class i mean , obviously a Enchanter cant tank like a Gaurdian can but you know what i mean )</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>We can't have Defense, that woyuld make us better tanks...then we'd have to suffer thru 7,000 more of Gaiges posts on why we are too powerful, and need nerfing.</div>

[GurgGuardianLord]

<div>All I want for my guardian is better aggro control.....zerkers own us hands down for plate class tanking on holding aggro..</div><div> </div><div>Thats all I want...I don't want to do DPS or tank better, I just don't wanna loose aggro anymore</div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GurgGuardianLord wrote:<div>All I want for my guardian is better aggro control.....zerkers own us hands down for plate class tanking on holding aggro..</div><div> </div><div>Thats all I want...I don't want to do DPS or tank better, I just don't wanna loose aggro anymore</div><hr></blockquote><p>Would you complain if you got better DPS?  Or if DPS was the answer to better agro control?  If not, then ask for it!</p><p>(Shoot for the stars, you may hit the moon)</p>