Analysis of the Guardians

[Baldaena]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>I've done some analysis of guardians CA in order to calculate our potential dps and our mana comsuption, and to see if we realy have</div><div>something broken...</div><div> </div><div><u>If you hate Math, Figures, etc don't read this post :smileywink</u>:</div><div> </div><div>In order to see how good (or not good) we are I've done the same analysis for Bruisers (because they are the most "dps oriented" Figthers and because I know that a lot of bruisers are reading this board and will do comments to this analysis and because Experience > figures. but plz, no rants...</div><div> </div><div>My first step was to find the CA which could influence the agro management.Guardians and bruiser increase agro owing to :- taunt- dps(the other tools are : buff/unbuf and hate syphon/transfer, but Bruisers&Guardians don't have this kind of tools)</div><div> </div><div>So I have done the following list for bruiser and guardians and gather informations from EQ2 Items Database (dammage, mana, recast time).http://www.eq2idb.com/</div><div> </div><div>Before starting, let me remember you that:- EQ2database dont take into account str, but generaly +10str bring about 1% of damage so It should have few influence on the data,- All data are for adept 3 quality- fighters dps comes from 1- auto atk 2- CA</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff3300"><strong>A- Auto atk dps</strong> </font></div><div>Ladicav have done interesting post, during his test, his average dps was:- in dual wield against yellow mobs : 70 -110 damages/sec- with shield against yellow mobs : 50 - 80 damages/sec </div><div>I state here that bruiser&guardians with same weapons, same haste % and same str will have the same auto atk dps.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff0000"><strong>B- CA dps/taunts</strong></font></div><div> </div><div><font color="#ccffff"><strong>TAUNTS</strong></font></div><div>My first observation about our CA was to see some sign of balance :- Guardians & Bruisers have the same 'pure' taunts (one solo, one encounter) with =><u>exactly</u><= the same 'agro' values.- Guardians & Bruisers have a permanent buff with taunt component (proc for bruiser & reactive taunt for Guardians)</div><div>In conclusion, my first observation is that our agro is as dependant as bruiser's one from our DPS and of our chance to hit and our STR.</div><div> </div><div>So I have decided to focus on guardians dps and bruiser dps, because it's were agro management is balanced.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ccffff"><strong>DPS </strong></font></div><div>Bruisers have several dps abilities wich can't be used when they are MT guardians can use all their abilities.</div><div>I have identified these abilities :</div><div>- Kidney Punch (the mobs have to be hit from behind)- Meteor Fist (consume HP and not mana)I will suppose bruiser can't use these abilities when they are MT (it sounds clever) (Kidney Punch sound very cool when they loose agro...)</div><div>(Besides, bruisers have the Bloodline CA which can kil solo mobs in one shot. I won't speak about this CA in this threads.)</div><div> </div><div>Bruiser have several flurry atk, if one miss all next ones will miss, I have divised par 2 the max number of atk for these CA.</div><div> </div><div>Feel free to comments if figures are false or if i have forgotten anythings.</div><div> </div><div>I have so calculated :- pure dps of each CA against solo mob- pure agro(taunt) of each CA against solo mob- pure dps of each CA against group of mobs- pure agro(taunt) of each CA against group of mobs- mana cost for 10points of damage for each CA.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.ancele/TABLE.JPG"></div><div> </div><div>If you add all the dps/sec of theses abilities when guardians & Bruiser are MT you will find almost the same numbers for Guardians&Bruiser(~180dammage/sec)!</div><div>So according to these tab, MT guardians & MT bruiser are doing very similar dps (in long fight and without any resists). but in dps mode, bruiser can reach 215dam/sec (without autoatk)</div><div> </div><div>But guardians&bruiser have some buff :- Guardians have buf to increase their chance to hit(+16 piercing/crushing/slahing)- Guardians have atk with taunts (CA must hit to proc)- Guardians when MT have often 1H+ shield (~50/80 dam/sec)</div><div>- Bruisers have STR buff(+59 = +6% in dps/sec = ~11dam/sec)- Bruiser have haste buff(+18%)- Bruiser have DW or 2H (~70/100dam/sec)</div><div> </div><div>So with all these figures, Bruiser should have better dps than guardians against targeted mob, but agro should be the same...</div><div> </div><div>We can also see that, for the "not targeted mobs" (the encounters), guardians have the best agro/dps- Guardians : ~50agro/sec + ~20dam/sec (2 CA encounter only + 1AE)- Bruisers :  ~30agro/sec + ~15 dam/sec (1 CA encounter only + 2AE)</div><div> </div><div>At this point, with these figures, I think that SOE dev have done a good job and I was astonished to find such similarity in dps...I would even think that guardians are the best owing to their ability to manage several mobs at the same times. But how to explain</div><div>our feelings of being unbalanced ?</div><div> </div><div>If you look at the recast timer and the average damage and try to find the 'best' sequences in time (with recast times, etc) yu will find this type of graph.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.ancele/Chart_DPS_ALL_CA.JPG"></div><div> </div><div>What we see, is that Bruiser dps (without conditionel CA listed before) increase quicker than Guardian's one, But every 30 sec, the two dps reach the same points! It's very intersting, because it show us that Bruiser have a better 'SNAP AGRO' and that guardians have slower dps but reach the same level (without autoatk, self buff, etc). But Bruiser have to wait longer before his next flow of CA, guardians are more regular.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight ends at 15s or 45s we will see very noticable differences in parses between guardians & bruisers, but if fights end at 30s, 60s, we will see similar dps... it's I think a part of what give us the feeling of unbalanced...</div><div> </div><div>But, if I add to theses figures the 'situational' dps of bruisers (mob must be hit from the back, ability which consumme HP) I get the following charts. I think these abilities are used for solo or while bruiser is not MT.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.ancele/Chart_ALL_DPS_ALL_CA.JPG"><a href="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.ancele/Chart_ALL_DPS_ALL_CA.JPG" target="_blank"></a></div><div>The DPS gap increase and will increase even more in offensive stance vs defensive stance, but it's Bruiser's main utility in group when not MT... so it sounds cool... even if these CA can be used for soloing... we can note that (without any resists) guardians need to wait 30 sec to reach 8000, where Bruiser needs only 10sec.. it can explain why Bruiser are so good for solo :smileyhappy: )</div><div> </div><div>Guardians have the same CA when MT and when not MT, our dps is divided in several medium CA where bruisers have their dps concentrated in few CA with longer timer...so it's were I see imbalance, because to have nice dps :- we have to use several CA whose mana cost is not balanced (see below)- we have to cast our CA more often because of their short recast timer and their limited dps... so we have more possible resists- we don't have *special* CA to use when we aren't MT to increase our dps (if we want to <u>copy</u> Bruiser...).</div><div>These problems are the same for solo.</div><div> </div><div>All theses figures have been calculated without resists, all theses abilities have to hit to do dammage, but to reach the same level of bruisers (every 30s) guardians have to use at least twice several of their abilities so Guardians are much more dependant of the chance to hit the mobs, that's why SOE give us buff  which will increase our chance to hit (but I'm not sure, it's enough..)</div><div> </div><div>After this first analysis, I've done the same thing on the mana needed to maintain this dps, figures are realy intersting :</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.ancele/Chart_ALL_MANA_ALL_CA.JPG"></div><div>We can see that, in longer fights, it cost much more mana for guardians than for bruisers, the real problem is that with the short duration of our ca we have to cast them more often... and if you add resists... . In mana burning mode, after 90s, for worst dps, guardians consumme ~3600pts and bruiser MT ~3000pts and bruiser have STR self buff...</div><div> </div><div>The previous analysis was done with all our abilities, but wiser fighters know that it's useless to launch all theses abilities (and these figures show us that we will be OOM after 1 minute)...</div><div>As a guardian, I mainly use 2, 3 or 4 CA for managing agro (I assumre it also the case for Bruisers).</div><div>So If these classes are only using their 4 best dps tools (without taunts, because I have stated that taunts were balanced), I get the following charts.</div><div>For this analysis I will use (in green in the table) :- Guardians : Swamp (~20 dam/sec) § Unforginving strike (~10dam/sec & 65agro/sec) § Relentless Charge (~27dam/sec) § Overpower</div><div>(~25dam/sec) ==>82dam/sec + 65 agro/sec- Bruisers : Roundhouse (22 dam/sec) § Crushing Fury(20dam/sec) § Flaming Lunge (28dam/sec) § Barbarous Stomp (~14+21 dam/sec) ==>93dam/sec</div><div> </div><div>If I update the prevous charts and keep only theses 8 CA, I get the following graphs :</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.ancele/Chart_DPS_BEST_CA.JPG"></div><div> </div><div><img src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.ancele/Chart_MANA_BEST_CA.JPG"></div><div> </div><div>my comments are the sames, we have problems with our mana...</div><div><strong><font color="#ff0000">My conclusion : </font></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong><font color="#ccffff">FACTS :</font> </strong>- Guardians is as dependant as Bruisers of their <u>CA DPS</u> for the agro management.- Guardians are the most dependant of their chance to hit.- Bruisers are able to increase quicker their dps.- Bruisers have better DPS than Guardians but have limited dps when MT.- Guardians need more mana to do less dps than  Bruiser (MT or not MT)</div><div><font color="#ccffff"><strong>My feelings :</strong></font></div><div><u>When spamming all our CA :</u></div><div> </div><div>- Guardians & Bruisers have similar dps in long fight, but guardians dps increase slower than bruiser's one and bruiser have more autoatk dps than guardians  <font color="#ff6600">=> ok balanced.</font>- Guardians are consuming much more mana and it's worst with long fights <font color="#ff9900">=> not balanced</font>- Guardians have to use their abilities more often (because shorter recast timer) so Guardians are more dependant on resist <font color="#ff9900">=> maybe </font><font color="#ff9900">balanced</font> with our self buff, but I'm not utterly sure..it sould be parsed)- Bruiser Dps is concentred in some high damage CA where guardians have several medium damages CA... that's why Bruiser are able to gain agro faster. If Bruiser loose agro their are able to take agro faster than guardians, the faster = the better... <font color="#ff6600">=> not balanced</font> : Guardians need more high dammage CA <u>OR</u> tools to give us more time (with our "intercept damages lines" for example)</div><div> </div><div><u>When not MT : </u></div><u></u><div>- Bruisers have better dps owing to some nice CA, but it's their main role un group when not MT <font color="#ff6600">=> ok balanced</font>- Guardians only get the STR buff of their offensive stance so the gap is very important vs Bruiser not MT <font color="#ff9900">=> Not balanced</font> / guardians have to bring something more in group when not Mt (maybe dps.. maybe something else)- Guardians have to use much more mana to be as efficient as bruisers <font color="#ff6600">=> not balanced</font></div><div> </div><div>As a side note, I will add, that guardians are very dependant of "CA spamming" and duration of the fights...</div><div> </div><div><u>when solo :</u>All is question of dps and duration of fights.</div><div>==> because our CA have short timer and do little dps : fight are longer and as we are very dependant of resists, fights are even more longer... (vicious circle : longer fight => more resist => longer fight=> ...)</div><div>==> Because Bruiser have nice dps abilities that they can use when not MT they are able to reach ~8k of dam in 15 seconds (without resists) where we need 40s (without resists)... that why bruiser are so good at solo (I don't say it's fine or not, I only try to explain why we have the feeling of not being balanced)</div><div> </div><div>Hope, the time I have spend to do this analysis will bring some explanations to the famous Questions : "Where are The Frogloks."</div><div> </div><div>Please don't flame me if you have seen mistakes (grammatical or not), errors in the figures, if you justify it, I will update my post. :smileywink:</div><div> </div><div>English is not my native language... but hope I was clear enough to bring something new in the discution...</div><p>Message Edited by Baldaena on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:18 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Baldaena on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:25 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Baldaena on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:25 PM</span></p>

[SniperKitty]

<hr size="2" width="100%"><div><font color="#ffcc00">At this point, with these figures, I think that SOE dev have done a good job and I was astonished to find such similarity in dps...</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00">I would even think that guardians are the best owing to their ability to manage several mobs at the same times. But how to explain</font></div><div><font color="#ffcc00">our feelings of being unbalanced ?</font><hr size="2" width="100%">Woohoo! Finally a guardian post that is very well thought out, plotted, and displays the actual problems with the guardian class.  Not the percieved problems.</div>

[Burningho]

<div></div><div></div><p>Great post Baldaena. </p><p>Your analysis is extremely useful.  It shows with concrete numbers why Guardians have been complaining about power usage, dps, and our ability to solo.  I think it also shows why SOE thinks we are balanced. </p><p>I find it very interesting that because of recast timers, bruisers and guardians can have the same dps at different times during a fight depending on the duration of the fight.  But, bruisers are more power efficient.  A bruiser's ability to do some quick dps at the beginning of a fight (or to regain aggro) explains a lot.</p><p>Again, excellent post.  Thanks for taking the time to do this.  I appreciate it.  (BTW, just for the sake of clarity, these charts are labled as "DPS" or damager per second when they are actually total damage.  Divide the total damage by fight duration and you would have damage per second.  It would actually be very interesting to convert these charts to DPS versus time in addition to total damage verus time.)  Thanks!</p><p>Message Edited by Burninghope on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:14 AM</span></p>

[SniperKitty]

If you get bored... plug in paladin numbers in too.  Even at lvl 38, I have to conserve power on my paladin unless I have a bard/chanter in the group.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>nice post...  i might have missed it but does it tank into account any damage procs from stances???  you said you didn't do the hate proc per attack for considering agro (understandable, with as wide of a sprectum you've covered)...  also take into account that brawlers have the lowest power pool so the numbers in power consumption might be a lil closer if you were to go by %...</p>

[Baldaena]

<div>I supposed that tanks where in defensive stance; the easiest to compare :</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><img src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.ancele/Buffoff.JPG"></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>I'm not utterly sure of the formula for proc :</div><div>In offensive stance, bruiser have 10% to proc 183-305 damage (with weapons)  and 660/1100 (without weapons) => 10% x ~880 every 3s = 29,33 dam/sec</div><div>In middle stance, bruiser have 5% chance to proc 264-440 (with weapons) and 458-764 (without weapons) => 5% x 611 every 3s = 10,2dam/sec</div><div>In offensive stance, guardians have + 126 str... so ~12/13% dps (about 22dam/sec with all CA, if the rule 10str = +10% is correct)</div><div> </div><div>Sounds balance if bruiser's proc was consuming mana (because guardians have to use all their CA to have the +22dam/sec... )</div><div> </div><div>For Mana pool, your right I will search the number of mana pts per str points for bruisers (but bruiser can buff their str..).</div><div> </div>

[Wabit]

<div></div>guard power is off str also...  under str cap its ~3.14 power/str, over the cap its ~1.59...  not too terribaly hard to hit solo...

[TunaBoo]

Well this also isn't 100% accurate.To tank at full potential, we need 1h + shield.To tank at full potential, a bruiser is DWing.That makes a decent difference, as will their +dps buff.<div></div>

[Anfauglith]

This post is really well done!!!It shows both sides of balanced/unbalanced stuff and why you can get a different point of view by focusing yourself on a single point...Certanly the best post I've seen so far for this subject <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[Baldaena]

<div></div><p>you're right Tuna, several things are not 100% accurate- I have spoken about DW/1H at the begining of the post, DW gives about +20/30dam/sec (vs 1H)- Bruiser have haste so it's increase their dps- Guardians have CA with hate component- All these figures are without resists, we have less resists owing to our  self buff.- And I have not the dps of CA for xx points of STR (I only use dps given by EQ2IDB)- Bruiser have +STR self buff (+60)</p>

[MrDiz]

Good work. Ive been saying for a while now that a guards biggest problem is power consumption and its nice to see figures to prove it. I focus on that issue now because its the least 'contraversial' and therefore most likely to be fixed. The dps gap however is still a hot potato. eg... Berzerkers vs Guardians. Do you simply increase guards to match zerks dps?Actually if u have time id love to see similar comparisons between zerks and guards <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Valam]

<div></div><div></div><p>good comparsion just a thing or 2</p><p>i think is more correct to calculate dps to use dmg/(cast time + recast time) and not just dmg/recast time, cast time is also quite important for tanks that use spells (sks and pally) so could be nice to include it if you plan to extend your comparsions to other tank classes</p><p>bruiser have +dps not +haste</p><p>bruiser procs dps are way higher than numbers you showed as every hit from CAs have chance to trigger it, this is extremely important wtih multi hit CAs like savag blows</p><p>and about multi hit CAs and procs, in a group situation is not hard to have 3+ hit procs running it could be nice to indicate the differences in actual hits from various CAs</p><p>Message Edited by Valamir on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:08 AM</span></p>

[Blackdouglass]

Nice Post thanks for the hard work and the numbers. Let's hope the devs take a look at this and see that being balanced on paper does not always equal real world conditions. It seems that like all chaotic systems the is a sensitive dependence on initial conditions that the devs neglected to exaim. Small varitions equal large changes over time. I'm hoping that Sony makes my class fun again. Thanks again for the post and I want to thank any dev that takes the time to read this post and think about the it.<div></div>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>My DPS hovers around 190-220 when I'm grouped. When I'm in a raid and not tanking it's around the same. When I'm grouped with a brawler, their DPS is almost always doubling mine. Scouts and mages are usually up in the 500-900 DPS range. You have calculated the numbers but something has to be wrong. I have a fabled weapon and most of the bralwers I hunt with have Legandary.</p>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<span><blockquote><hr>Baldaena wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div> </div><div>My first step was to find the CA which could influence the agro management.Guardians and bruiser increase agro owing to :- taunt- dps(the other tools are : buff/unbuf and hate syphon/transfer, but Bruisers&Guardians don't have this kind of tools)</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Great post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Just... Relentless Charge and Hew have a debuff as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sir_Halbarad wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Baldaena wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div> </div><div>My first step was to find the CA which could influence the agro management.Guardians and bruiser increase agro owing to :- taunt- dps(the other tools are : buff/unbuf and hate syphon/transfer, but Bruisers&Guardians don't have this kind of tools)</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Great post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Just... Relentless Charge and Hew have a debuff as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>A mental debuff of some sort on one of our attacks would be nice to, even if its short term, just something to help land taunts a little easier maybe (since there mental based).

[Baldaena]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<div></div><p>My DPS hovers around 190-220 when I'm grouped. When I'm in a raid and not tanking it's around the same. When I'm grouped with a brawler, their DPS is almost always doubling mine. Scouts and mages are usually up in the 500-900 DPS range. You have calculated the numbers but something has to be wrong. I have a fabled weapon and most of the bralwers I hunt with have Legandary.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">According to these figures we have about 180dam/sec only with ca without buff and without any resists.- In dual wield against yellow mobs : 70 -110 damages/sec (see Ladicav post fors his parse)- 1H with shield against yellow mobs : 50 - 80 damages/sec (see Ladicav post fors his parse) - our Offensive stance (+126 str) we have about +12.6% in our CA dps and autoatk dps (not verified for autoatk dps)</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">So total dps :</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">1H + shield: (180 + 65)x1,126 = 276 <u>without resists</u>DW : (180 + 90) x 1,126 = 304 <u>without resists</u></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Besides don't forget in group and in raid you have str, dps, haste , proc buff which are increasing your dps.:smileywink:</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>According to my parser in Poets Palace over about the last 10 runs (some even con but mostly level 62 stuff) MY DPS is 190-220 and the break down is 40% from CA's and 60% from autoattack.</p><p>I can use my mitigation debuff doll and go all out with all my CA on a 62^^^ (the djinn roamers) and get my DPS up to 240-280 but then I'm low power and need to pretend to do important stuff while I get a tick or two of power before the next pull. This is based on Shield/1H with the fabled sword from Cazels. Sandstorm I think it's called. I can go to my Cobalt 2H but the DPS increase is marginal so I just stay 1H.</p><p>I'm just saying I know what my DPS is and the 4-5 times I have grouped with a brawler they have done roughly twice the DPS of me. I have to get agro from my wife the Assassin and put Assauge on the brawler to keep things in line.</p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>Also, my CA hit percentage is in the high 90's on the 61-63 stuff. I haven't really checked on the named orange stuff becasue I'm just wanting to get the heck out of Poets by that time.</p><p>Amost 50 trips and I have never seen the gloves.</p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><p>I went to the monk forum and poked around and found:</p><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=26919" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=26919</a></p><p>Basically they are claming around 400 DPS in a raid but another is saying his autoattack with maxed buffs is around 400 DPS and he/she can hit 700 if they try. Not even close to my 190-220.</p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><p>Baldaena. Brilliant post, brilliant analysis. It's obvious you spent a lot of time on this and it shows. Makes me happy to see you cared enough about the class as to run your own analysis and find things out for yourself. I'm surprised how close the numbers worked out and the correlation between what you found and what my early parses presented.</p><p></p><hr>Baldaena wrote:<blockquote><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<div></div><p>My DPS hovers around 190-220 when I'm grouped. When I'm in a raid and not tanking it's around the same. When I'm grouped with a brawler, their DPS is almost always doubling mine. Scouts and mages are usually up in the 500-900 DPS range. You have calculated the numbers but something has to be wrong. I have a fabled weapon and most of the bralwers I hunt with have Legandary.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">According to these figures we have about 180dam/sec only with ca without buff and without any resists.- In dual wield against yellow mobs : 70 -110 damages/sec (see Ladicav post fors his parse)- 1H with shield against yellow mobs : 50 - 80 damages/sec (see Ladicav post fors his parse) - our Offensive stance (+126 str) we have about +12.6% in our CA dps and autoatk dps (not verified for autoatk dps)</font></p><p></p><p></p><hr></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote><p>I fully have to agree with your findings with respect to having about 180dps being solo, only self buffed and using our CA's heavily. I have been parsing solo heroic mobs which take enough time to fight to see the DPS level out enough from the initial burst DPS in the first 15 - 20 seconds and I have found so far the average longer term DPS in this condition is  tending towards the high 180's, which closely correlates to your findings. I will post my parses also so there is a comparison.</p><p>Between all these parses everyone has been doing, including Wabit, I think we are all starting to map out a Guardians performance quite well. It is a lot better than just having to rely on guesswork and assumptions. I'm getting a clear feeling on where we stand. If only we had other fighter figures to compare against.</p><p>I tip my hat to you.</p>

[BrainMu]

<div>Nice post, glad to see someone willing to take the time to do this.</div>

[Junaru]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Wasuna wrote:<p>I went to the monk forum and poked around and found:</p><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=26919" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=26919</a></p><p>Basically they are claming around 400 DPS in a raid but another is saying his autoattack with maxed buffs is around 400 DPS and he/she can hit 700 if they try. Not even close to my 190-220.</p><hr></blockquote>The reason for this is offencive stance. These parses show while in defenceive stance both do around the same DPS. The only problem is Monks/Brusiers rarely use defencive stance, Unlike Guardians we have 3 stances to pick from. Offencive, Defencive and Hybred (Spider Stance). Unless a Monk is facing a boss mob he will <b>NOT</b> be in defencive stance. Thus doing more DPS then a Guardian.Also Monks do not have any positional attacks like Brusiers do. Although some attacks are better off used from dehind a mob. Our </span>flurry line of CA's works only if you hit a mob. Lunging Mongoose has a chance to hit 5 times for 101 - 168 (Adept III) but the 1st time I miss a swing it stops. So if I hit the 1st time and miss the 2nd swing I have only done 101-168 damage. In order to get full damage I need every swing to hit. While in front of a mob that rarely happens. This is why you will often see a Monk stun a mob then run behind it and hit Lunging Mongoose.While this thread is nice work and I thank Baldaena for all the hard work it doesn't show true to life DPS for the simple reason that Monks just don't use defencive stance. It's too hard for us to hit a mob and as most of you know if we can't hit a mob we can't hold aggro. So while numbers might look the same they aren't in the end. In real life a Monk will most likely out DPS a Guardian while tanking but no doubt take a bigger beating for it.So you have to ask yourself, do you want DPS and need more healing or do you want less healing and less DPS?I still say that the biggest problem with DPS between fighters is your offecive stance. It's weak and needs to be tweaks. Also this threads shows something I and what looks like alot of others didn't know. Guardians use more power per CA then Brusiers. Now thats scrary since my Monk can burn thru his power pool in seconds.</div>

[Berek_IronAxe]

<div></div>Excellent Post -Thank you for taking the time and energy.

[lyonel]

<div>your data is wrong somewhere .ive parsed with monks in my group and they by far out dps the hell out of me.</div>

[Baldaena]

<div>There is only CA based dps, not auto atk and some self buff can influence data (like offensive stance, haste/dps buff, str buff etc).</div><div> </div><div>I need to spend more time to find more data on CA (I used EQ2 Item database) so I would be able to take into account influence of str in my calculation.</div><div> </div><div>I will include autoatk dps (dual/1H) and try to take into account selfbuff of each class (hope I will have enough time this we lol).</div>

[Vamperion]

<div>I'm sure the devs have noticed this post and hope they act on it. Mobs with power drains make it extremly difficult for us to keep hate through a long fight. As a MT for Hands of Time I find it very difficult at times to manage my power appropriatly. Especially when it comes to finishing HO's sometimes im forced to not complete it because the attack required uses to much power. I find this dissapointing, especially when comparing it to other classes.</div><div> </div><div>Again, well done post. Thank you.</div><div> </div>

[Snikey]

<div></div>I'd like to see similar comparasion done for Monks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Seeing as thier damage taken over a long fight is less than a mitigation tank.

[Danan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Snikey wrote:<div></div>I'd like to see similar comparasion done for Monks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Seeing as thier damage taken over a long fight is less than a mitigation tank.<hr></blockquote>this was a damage dealt comparison, not damage taken. And even then i am not sure Brawlers take less damage than guards.

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dananeb wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Snikey wrote:<div></div>I'd like to see similar comparasion done for Monks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Seeing as thier damage taken over a long fight is less than a mitigation tank.<hr></blockquote>this was a damage dealt comparison, not damage taken. And even then i am not sure Brawlers take less damage than guards.<hr></blockquote>Over long fights, they do, but only by a small margin.  I've found that a brawler is more likely to die to a damage spike than for the fight to continue long enough to get a good grasp on exactly how much more damage they take.  It's the downside of being an avoidance tank.

[Griffith1026]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>lyonel wrote:<div>your data is wrong somewhere .ive parsed with monks in my group and they by far out dps the hell out of me.</div><hr></blockquote><p>If the Data is wrong its not off by much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>i think this was a great job</p>

[Anasyn Silverdagg]

<div></div>I think you did a great job on comparing the dps between the two classes now compare their tanking ability.

[glumlor]

Pretty good analysis.  Only mistake I saw was that the Bruiser Class gets a group DPS Buff and Monk class gets a group haste buff.From my experience the bruiser is the better MT against mobs that are even con and lower.  We do more dmg and our avoidance really comes into play.Against higher level mobs, or when there are alot of mobs to maintain agro over, I find that guardians are so much better as MT.I can speak for DPS as it seems like all I ever do as bruiser is spam my abilities non-stop.Also another thing the OP said was Kidney Punch, Dirty Punch series is not usable as MT because it requires you to be behind.  This is not completely true.  My first attack is always a stun, then I move behind mob and kidney punch.  It's pretty reliable and easy to get off.Also at Level 48 I'm generally doing around 200 avg dps over a fight as MT against Heroic Mobs.<div></div>