Hold the Line = underpowered

[Wabit]

<div>going threw the parses of our PPR raid tonight...  Got to 4th floor but got beat up without a ring...  dps light, healer heavy raid...</div><div> </div><div>i'm utterly amazed how worthless our HtL stance can be...  on a 3 mobs encounter Ciriktna + 2 adds in a 6 min fight (yes that low on dps) HtL was resisted 55 times...  confront was resisted 2 times protect 5...</div><div> </div><div>i was hit a total of 348 times, 143 of those were for no damage (ward/stoneskin), so down to 202 times damage was inflicted (chance for HtL to proc)...  of the hits were 20 Smite (casted)...  i've never noticed a proc off a spell or a dot (could be wrong here, so i'll count them)...</div><div> </div><div>so of 202 times damge was inflicted 50% chance to proc HtL....  so 101 HtL procs (guessing cause it doesn't record if a spell hits but does no damage)...  out of 101 chances i have 55 resists...  for the sake of simple math (its all i can do), i'll say it was resisted 50% of the time...  or even if it proced on all 202 times i was damaged thats still a 25% resist rate...</div><div> </div><div>how does this compare to the 41% Amends leach (all the time agro from a group mate), and the brawler proc when they hit stance (dunno % or if they can be resisted)???</div><div> </div><div>its already not worth useing on the large groups of trash mobs (they die to quick), and the palace guards i'll put it up but am still getting about 20 resists in a 2.5 min fight (why they have 250kish HP each i've yet to figure out)...</div><div> </div><div>there are just too many things about this ability that make it very undesireable...  the snare (ehh its better than the root), the resistablility (upgradeing has no effect on the resistability %), the not procing threw wards, stoneskin, or block/parry/miss...  at least it procs more often than the zerkers abilityof the same line :smileyindifferent: ...</div><div> </div><div>the ability sounds yummy on paper, but in reality its as bland as the rest of our class...</div>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div></div><p>Hehehe, you don't need to convince <em>me</em> how lacklustre HTL can be. It is pretty well documented what my feelings on this matter are. I've already done extensive parsing  tests and seen it for myself.</p><p>The way HTL works needs some major overhauling. Currently it is crippled by too many external parameters for it to be reliable.</p><p>I have to praise you for parsing different things lately. Information is power. I was tired of just accepting peoples explanations as read, since many of them didn't always make sense. You're going out of your way to find out for yourself also and it really doesn't get any more convincing than that.</p><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:04 AM</span></p>

[Rah]

<div></div><p>100% agree. Master of tuants if you gear yourself like Dangerous in "Million dollar baby" and take the chance of being one rounded.</p><p>We are not master of taunts compared to other lines that are DPS dependent to generate threat increases.</p><p> </p><p>Rahge</p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>sigh...i wish research was done before amends is brought up. Amends cannot be cast raid wide, as its a grp only buff. Therefore, in an MT grp, you have mostly healers and a mana regen. Amends works by siphoning hate, right?</p><p>In an MT grp, who are you going to siphon hate from? the amount of aggro anyone in an MT grp generate is minimal. If you dont believe me, next time u see an XP grp with a paladin and a warlock/ assasin/ and a healer in the grp, ask the Paly to amends the healer. See how long they keep aggro.</p><p>So now that we debunk the myth of amending a healer for aggro, we see that you would need to insert a high DPS class in the MT grp to make amends worth anything. Who do you switch out of the MT grp?</p><p>the guy with the buffs and mana regen?</p><p>one of the healers?</p><p>Hold the line is lightyears better for the raid Main Tank than amends will ever be, because to insert that high DPS class in the MT grop for amends to be worth anything, you will sacrifice either healers or buffers.</p><p> </p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div>the brawler proc when they hit stance (dunno % or if they can be resisted)???<hr></div></blockquote>50% chance to proc 326 threat on any attack @ M1.  I assume it can be resisted like any other taunt, though I never really pay attention.

[zabor]

also, the proc on successful attacks doesnt work very good on orange mobs where you rarely hit. Keep in mind that only guardians have a melee skill buff to counter their defensive stance. brawlers have to fight with 283 crushing in def stance. That's like 5% chance to hit on orange mobs. Also, hold the line procs on all mobs in the encounter attacking you. Monk proc only on the mob they are attacking.i'd gladly trade my proc for the guardian proc. you are much better off.BTW, procs also work with no damage inflicted, e.g. with a ward or damage immunity.

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:also, the proc on successful attacks doesnt work very good on orange mobs where you rarely hit.  <font color="#ffff00">Raiding monks have ample opportunity to get +crushing gear.  </font>Keep in mind that only guardians have a melee skill buff to counter their defensive stance. brawlers have to fight with 283 crushing in def stance.  <font color="#ffff00">We get our mixed stance, and I fight oranges in offensive stance anyway <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> That's like 5% chance to hit on orange mobs. Also, hold the line procs on all mobs in the encounter attacking you. Monk proc only on the mob they are attacking.i'd gladly trade my proc for the guardian proc. you are much better off.  <font color="#ffff00">I'd never trade storm stance for HTL, no possible way.  Most real raid mobs in T6 are one mob and you peel/offtank the encounter.  There is no one better at holding single target aggro than me period. I can hold single target aggro out of power than most ppl can with mana.  There is just no way I'd give up Storm Stance, ever.</font>BTW, procs also work with no damage inflicted, e.g. with a ward or damage immunity.  <font color="#ffff00">AFAIK HTL doesn't proc with wards, because they aren't getting hit, the ward is absorbing the damage.</font><hr></blockquote>I just don't think getting into the whole HTL vs Storm Stance arguement is very valid.

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>sigh...i wish research was done before amends is brought up. Amends cannot be cast raid wide, as its a grp only buff. Therefore, in an MT grp, you have mostly healers and a mana regen. Amends works by siphoning hate, right?</p><p>In an MT grp, who are you going to siphon hate from? the amount of aggro anyone in an MT grp generate is minimal. If you dont believe me, next time u see an XP grp with a paladin and a warlock/ assasin/ and a healer in the grp, ask the Paly to amends the healer. See how long they keep aggro.</p><p>So now that we debunk the myth of amending a healer for aggro, we see that you would need to insert a high DPS class in the MT grp to make amends worth anything. Who do you switch out of the MT grp?</p><p>the guy with the buffs and mana regen?</p><p>one of the healers?</p><p>Hold the line is lightyears better for the raid Main Tank than amends will ever be, because to insert that high DPS class in the MT grop for amends to be worth anything, you will sacrifice either healers or buffers.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>wrong wrong wrong.Amends is the single most awesome agro holding ability out there.. and if your not using it right, then i pity you.  we use a Pally for out MT (so does Wabits guild I beleive) and we find he holds agro SO much better than anyone else.  Put amends on a monk/bruiser in the MT group, or on a mystic who is warding the tank, and go to town.  Absoloutly amazing what this ability can do.  We've even gone so far as to put me, Pally, 3 healers (defiler, fury and inquis) and a dirge in the MT group, the Tank holds agro with another 6 rangers and 6 casters doing what ever they like.  We give the tank a minute to taunt the hell our of it, then I just open up and just pour hate into him, the DPS can basically dump their manna as fast as they like... and burn through mobs.  Works just as well for multi mob encounters, or single mobs with adds, its just ungodly.  Out Pally is as well equiped as most guards we see (we arent a hard core raiding guild), and in fact usually has more mit and about the same HP, even when the guard has his mit buff up.amends is worlds ahead of anything else.. not only does it give the pally +41% hate , it reduces the hate on the person its on, making them be able to do their job more effectively, that mystic can now ward more, the ranger DPs more, the monk tank more.  Guardians need HTL to be a group wide agro siphon, much lower %, and proc everytime anyone in the group is hit (50% chance).</span></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>Storm Stance should be equal to HTL, and vice versa.</p><p>Storm Stance doesnt work well on OJ content?  And HTL does?  The resists are thru the roof!  You cant hit it, we cant get a taunt to stick.  Your DPS will still be there, scaled down to comp for the mob's level, just like ours.  But your DPS will still more than match our DPS+Taunt hate.</p><p>Taunts need an overhaul.  They've been jacked up since LU13.  Almost 5 months.</p><p>It took a YEAR for wards to apply the target's mitigation.  Why?</p><p>Guess we gotta wait for the next Xpansion for a fix.</p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>amends on the shammy FTW...  pre warded is even better...  and yes our paly was MT for everything we killed...  we compared alot of notes so i have a better feel for that than the brawler side...</p><p>as for storm stance...  i can see the on orange mobs where there could be issues with it...  when i'm in front tanking i don't hit that often on orange mobs... </p><p>also HtL needs to have at least 1 point of damage inflited to have the 50% chance to proc...</p><p>the fight i used for my example is one where i as MT had no power...  even with constant feeds all i could really do was keep my 30 sec buffs up and a couple taunts...  the power drain goes off quite often...  my real goal there is to hold agro on the 2 adds and try to keep hold of the named as long as i could...  in reality i kept the 2 adds, the named was giving everyone a chance to tank...  imo this is the type of fight where HtL is needed most, and yet sadly it preforms lackluster...</p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>Bottom line, cool idea on paper, bad idea in game.</p><p>HTL line needs to be more reliable across the board.  Right now, it sucks against low con (cuz they can't hit us) AND against high con (cuz they resist us).  That range needs to be extended in BOTH directions.</p><p>(Hard to not mention that Storm Stance works great up to low yellow con.)</p><p>Both abilities need to work on attack as opposed to hit.  That way wards, parry, block, miss, whatever, wont keep it from firing off.  Then we have to worry about resists, and the fact that debuffed mobs swing slower, so HTL will proc less.</p><p>Having these abilities work on attack in stead of hit will remove our avoidance from the equasion, at least.</p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><p>Having these abilities work on attack in stead of hit will remove our avoidance from the equasion, at least.</p><hr></blockquote>i like the when hit aspect of it...  gives flavor to the warriors and lets us be different from the brawlers...  warrior = you can hit me but not kill me, comon hit me again (taunt)...  brawler = i'm gonna kill you before you can kill me, what ya gonna do about it (taunt)???

[mastersard]

<div></div>I'd have the brawlers %chance to taunt on attack rather that hit as well.  Seems only fair to me.

[Lyrus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div>i like the when hit aspect of it...  gives flavor to the warriors and lets us be different from the brawlers...  warrior = you can hit me but not kill me, comon hit me again (taunt)...<hr></blockquote></span>Henry Rollins would be a zerker <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>oh, please...by last count I had over 500 raids, so im not some newb raider. I know what amends can and cant do. Yes you can cast it on a shammy, but I guarantee you that HTL will generate alot more aggro than amends on a healer.. Healing does create aggro, but not nearly as much as you guys are making it out to be.</p><p>The only way amends would be worth anything would be put a DPS or a brig in the MT grp, and you then you would sacrifice stats for that.</p><p>Like i said, go to an XP grp with all high DPS and a mystic and cast amends on the mystic. See how long the paly holds aggro. Amends is not some magic aggro lock. Palys still lose aggro with amends on DPS, much less healers. Amends is great on an XP grp, but in a raid, ur HTL is superior. Its not based on anything but getting hit.</p><p> </p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>oh, please...by last count I had over 500 raids, so im not some newb raider. I know what amends can and cant do. Yes you can cast it on a shammy, but I guarantee you that HTL will generate alot more aggro than amends on a healer.. Healing does create aggro, but not nearly as much as you guys are making it out to be.</p><p>The only way amends would be worth anything would be put a DPS or a brig in the MT grp, and you then you would sacrifice stats for that.</p><p>Like i said, go to an XP grp with all high DPS and a mystic and cast amends on the mystic. See how long the paly holds aggro. Amends is not some magic aggro lock. Palys still lose aggro with amends on DPS, much less healers. Amends is great on an XP grp, but in a raid, ur HTL is superior. Its not based on anything but getting hit.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>while you live in egypt next to "de nile" .. the rest ofus will continue to use a pally as MT and do it well with amends.</span></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>oh, please...by last count I had over 500 raids, so im not some newb raider. I know what amends can and cant do. Yes you can cast it on a shammy, but I guarantee you that HTL will generate alot more aggro than amends on a healer.. Healing does create aggro, but not nearly as much as you guys are making it out to be.</p><p>The only way amends would be worth anything would be put a DPS or a brig in the MT grp, and you then you would sacrifice stats for that.</p><p>Like i said, go to an XP grp with all high DPS and a mystic and cast amends on the mystic. See how long the paly holds aggro. Amends is not some magic aggro lock. Palys still lose aggro with amends on DPS, much less healers. Amends is great on an XP grp, but in a raid, ur HTL is superior. Its not based on anything but getting hit.</p><hr></blockquote><p>exp group you're not getting the use of the wards like in a raid...  dps is the logical choice there... </p><p>in a raid, 1/3 of the hits i take do no damage, so it sounds like you're not getting use out of your shammy or playing with ragnog at 60...</p><p>41% of a 2400 ward is 600 hate to the entire encouner (not counting dirge or coercer)...  from that same ward as a warrior i get 0% chance to proc my 380ish HtL on a single target...  and even if 1 damage does get threw the ward, i have a 50% chance to proc HtL and it can be resisted...</p><p>most well setup raids (5 healer, 3 tanks, couple of bards, the rest dps) i actully take very little damage due to the wards...</p><p>i don't know how you set your MT group up, but ours is usually MT (guard or paly), druid, templar, defiler, dirge, conj/coercer...  even if we were to put a warlock in for noxious resists our paly will still amends the defiler...</p><p>but i'm clueless as to what a paly amends can do, its not like the he has tanked 3 completed t6 raid zones and godking...  oh wait he has...</p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zaboron wrote:also, the proc on successful attacks doesnt work very good on orange mobs where you rarely hit. Keep in mind that only guardians have a melee skill buff to counter their defensive stance. brawlers have to fight with 283 crushing in def stance. That's like 5% chance to hit on orange mobs. Also, hold the line procs on all mobs in the encounter attacking you. Monk proc only on the mob they are attacking.i'd gladly trade my proc for the guardian proc. you are much better off.BTW, procs also work with no damage inflicted, e.g. with a ward or damage immunity.<hr></blockquote><p>You would really swap? Wow that is awesome. I'd gladly trade with you. We have a deal ok?</p><p>I've parsed HTL extensively. I know intimately how it works. And I will take my hard data over anyones emtional anecdotal evidence any day of the week. The success of HTL is subject to so many external parameters that many times it's more of a hope and pray rather than having any confidence it will work for you when you really need it.</p><p>How much avoidance do you get as a monk. 65%? 70%? How do you figure you're going to hold agro on a group of mobs with HTL? Orange cons Wabit parsed and as you can see it gets resisted a whole ton. Your general grouping agro ability is going to be one right royal mess. See for HTL to work the mob has to <em>hit </em>you. And even if it does hit you, it's only a 50% chance to proc. So for your 70% avoidance, you get hit 30% of the time and HTL will proc 15% of the time. Oh yes, you would become a star at agro holding at a 15% agro generation rate, since HTL is so much better as you claim.</p><p>Compare to how many times I would actually hit white or yellow cons and I would gladly swap with you.</p><p> </p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div>Whats your point that ur paly is the MT? If hes the MT is not because of amends, its because hes a better tank.  Amends doesnt make a good MT, its a tool. Like hold the line. Im glad your paly is the MT, because 90% of raid tanks are guards. </div><div> </div><div>You guys just cant stand that theres something that another tank can do better. Jeez.  Amends is not better than HTL in a raid. It is better in a xp grp. deal with it. My guilds MT is a guard and he holds aggro just fine. Ur guild MT is a paly and he holds aggro just fine.</div><div> </div><div>Sounds balanced to me.</div><div> </div><div>Uzhiel, lvl 60 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>Whats your point that ur paly is the MT? If hes the MT is not because of amends, its because hes a better tank.  Amends doesnt make a good MT, its a tool. Like hold the line. Im glad your paly is the MT, because 90% of raid tanks are guards. </div><div> </div><div>You guys just cant stand that theres something that another tank can do better. Jeez.  Amends is not better than HTL in a raid. It is better in a xp grp. deal with it. My guilds MT is a guard and he holds aggro just fine. Ur guild MT is a paly and he holds aggro just fine.</div><div> </div><div>Sounds balanced to me.</div><div> </div><div>Uzhiel, lvl 60 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</div><hr></blockquote><p>so you're saying that you're not MT of a raid???  if you are geared up for it, try it out...  the parses can be quite a bit higher...</p><p>and i agree its tool in our box of agro control...  i just wish craftsman made it...  at least they replace broken tools...</p>

[TunaBoo]

gaige just admits storm stance is horribly overpowered compared to HTL, good thing he has "connections". For what skill, I'm still not sure of, it's surely not play skill.<div></div>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>Whats your point that ur paly is the MT? If hes the MT is not because of amends, its because hes a better tank.  Amends doesnt make a good MT, its a tool. Like hold the line. Im glad your paly is the MT, because 90% of raid tanks are guards. </div><div> </div><div>You guys just cant stand that theres something that another tank can do better. Jeez.  Amends is not better than HTL in a raid. It is better in a xp grp. deal with it. My guilds MT is a guard and he holds aggro just fine. Ur guild MT is a paly and he holds aggro just fine.</div><div> </div><div>Sounds balanced to me.</div><div> </div><div>Uzhiel, lvl 60 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Yay for more anecdotes. Where are your parses to back up all your assumptions? Oh you have none?</p><p>Then you won't be convincing me anytime soon I'm afraid.</p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:gaige just admits storm stance is horribly overpowered compared to HTL, good thing he has "connections". For what skill, I'm still not sure of, it's surely not play skill.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>LoL, I did eh?</p><p>As for not having any skill playing /shrug, it could be worse I could be an ogre guardian.</p>

[TunaBoo]

Or I could have to let brimstar tank for me.. cough<div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><div></div><p>Ladicav,</p><p>       The onus is not on me to prove that my amends is overpowered compared to your HTL. Its on you. You guys brought it up. Show me your parses where amends generated more aggro than your HTL and then you'll convince ME. As it stands, I'm sure the devs have taken a look at it already, since it was already nerfed once. Either way, I dont have to convince you of anything.</p><p>My guilds MT is a guard and he holds aggro fine.</p><p>Wabits guild's MT is a paly and he holds aggro just fine.</p><p>Both have killed the same mobs. What is the big deal about it.  Mystics were aggro machines PRIOR to revamp. Are you seriously telling me that a mystic will generate more aggro than an assasin? or a ranger? or a warlock? <font color="#ff3300"><u>Show me on a graph or a mathematical formula the amount of aggro that healers in an MT grp generate. </u></font><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><u>Then show me how much more aggro a Paladin generates than a guard using Amends vs HTL</u></font>. If you cant, then your using those "anecdotes" you so love to accuse others of using.</font></p><p>I didnt think so. Again, I would not have posted here if someone had not brought up amends and how terribly broken your HTL line is compared to it. Every other post in your forums is about how unhappy, broken, or nerfed your guard is...</p><p>Tanking is MUCH more balanced now thats it ever been. All tanks lose aggro, not just guards. Is amends better in an XP grp? YES. Is it better in a raid? NO. Even I were to grant that amends is better in a raid, that does nothing because then you guys will complain about something else. If amends was such the aggro magic pill then Paladins would be the number 1 raid tank, and thats FAR from true. Amends is just another tool that lets Palys close the gap between tanks.</p><p>How many guilds have a Guard MT vs a Paly MT?</p><p>Thats right, then amends isnt overpowered.</p><p>How many guilds have a Monk MT vs a Guard MT?</p><p>Thats right, their stance isnt overpowered.</p><p>Those are facts, BTW, Ladicav. If these monk and paly skills were so overpowering, then Guards wouldnt be the preferred MT's right? Again, you guys confuse utility vs tanking. People pick Palys and Monks to tank over guards because of utility, not aggro. Monks have notoriously poor AE aggro as it is.</p><p>The only tanks that have underpowered aggro skills are SK's..... and Monks and Bruisers AE aggro.</p><p>BTW, amends is 39%, not 41%. It was nerfed.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:58 AM</span></p>

[Crim001]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div></div><p> <font color="#ff3300"><u>Show me on a graph or a mathematical formula the amount of aggro that healers in an MT grp generate. </u></font><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><u>Then show me how much more aggro a Paladin generates than a guard using Amends vs HTL</u></font>. </font></p><p>How many guilds have a Guard MT vs a Paly MT?</p><p>Thats right, then amends isnt overpowered.</p><p>How many guilds have a Monk MT vs a Guard MT?</p><p>Thats right, their stance isnt overpowered.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Read the rest of these forums before you stop flaming jerk. There are numerous parses, even detailed graphs explaining the dps/aggro ability of guards vs. others or even just guards. If you want to flame at us for not comparing "logically" then why don't you get some palys to post parses so that we can compare. If we're wrong, then ok, it means that we have to rethink things. If we're right then you didn't do anything except make yourself look like a complete jerk.</p><p>Also, I know for a fact that many, many groups will use brawlers or palys and whatnot just because of their stance or amends. In groups I actually prefer that they tank simply because its much better for them to keep aggro and I peel off adds since i have very little ability to do so if there are more then 2 mobs attacking the group. As far as AE aggro is concerned, we have none now for multiple groups. Buffs don't create aggro anymore(our 30 sec buff in particular) so unless our taunt line is fresh, we are royally screwed. Intercepts use the targets mitg....so if we take say 97% of 4k.....we are hurting. I'm sure you know this, or are you not used to throwing yourself under the bus in a feeble attempt to save your group?</p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>The funny thing that Ladicav accused me of using anecdotal evidence. Also, notice I didnt call anyone names, but you pulled out the personal attacks real quick, didnt ya? I dont recall stating one thing about logical evidence, but I do recall ladicav asking me to post parses.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">"There are numerous parses, even detailed graphs explaining the dps/aggro ability of guards vs. others or even just guards".</font></p><p>BTW, you are wrong. Theres no parse anywhere, at all, that shows how much aggro mystics or any other healer actually generate. How exactly do you parse amends? You, can't, at least now with any tool I know of, and Ive been playing paly since November of 2005. If you want we can do a comparison of taunt by taunt. HTL and Amends cannot be parsed because every fight is different. I could be in a grp where the guy I amended is doing crap and you could be in a grp where you're getting hit alot and your HTL is proc'cing alot.</p><p>Also, BTW. I did state that amends was superior in a grp setting, as opposite of HTL, which is superior in a raid, but you chose to ignore or just not read that part?</p><p>Also, BTW, no tank has any sort of aggro generator that works across multiple grps. I have the same number of taunts that you have.</p><p>As for buffs? tell you what, I'll heal and ward myself next time I'm in an XP grp and I'll let you know how long I kept aggro.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>BTW, amends is 39%, not 41%. It was nerfed.</p><hr></blockquote><p>master 1 amends is 41% it got nerfed from 47%...  M1 inflaming defence 444 threat with 120% snare...</p><p>actully what works is a group is amplified in a raid setting...  if i can find a parser that actully counts wards i'll use it in the next raid...  heck reading the paly forums, where the consencus is amends (in all settings) is great...</p><p>if HtL proced threw wards/block/parry and wasn't resitsted then yes i'd say it would be more on even terms with amends, but its not...</p><p>also i'l only looking at the HtL vs procs to hit and single target leach...  not our craptastic dps (paly/guard) compared to other classes, the number of direct taunts, damage aura, reinforcement, ect...</p><p>on a side note right now i am MT, or paly took a break for RL stuff...  but after a month of lookin at parses (during raids) with him as MT, and then seeing the ones when i am MT its a noticeable difference...  i've been on raids where guard is MT and paly is MT...  if you haven't or have no/limited experiance with both in the MT spot then how can you honestly compare??? </p><p>heck just try it on the trash mobs in PPR, the fallen raider groups of 8 million, or in court try it on the trash frogs...  have your shammy preward you on pull, AE taunt for the pull, then pretend you're stuned for the first 10 secs of the fight...  now have your guard do the same thing...  that would be the ideal test for the amends vs HtL...  alot of mobs hitting you so HtL should proc many times...  if i had a paly geared to tank atm i'd post the results (our second paly went all int /respec)</p>

[TunaBoo]

The problem with HTL, is it dosn't taunt that much, it doesn't seem to work with wards/block/parry, and it is inconsistant.Here is how it is inconsistant. Say we are fighting a group with 100 mobs. We aoe taunt, they all run at us.  100 swing, but only 50 get a proc of HTL off.. so only 50 are given more aggro.  In another second, they all swing again.25 will have had 2 HTL procs50 will have had 1 HTL proc25 will have had 0 HTL procs.So now a warlocks casts devestation.  The 25 with 2 procs are on solid. The 50 with 1 proc are hopefully on us. But the 25 with 1 proc will all break loose and mug the aoe'er. CLoth people go down fast, 1/2 to 1/4 of the mobs breaking free to mug them.Suggested fix:Make it proc ANYTIME the mob attacks us, even if they hit, miss, are parried, are warded, are rippoed.Make it proc 100% so it is reliable (or at least as spell level goes up, proc rate should go up.. make master1 over 90% and it will at last be dependable).Make it proc a little less hate to make up for what we gained above, I would rather see 100% proc of 200 hate then 50% proc of 400 hate... or at least 90% proc of 250 hate.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:The problem with HTL, is it dosn't taunt that much, it doesn't seem to work with wards/block/parry, and it is inconsistant.Here is how it is inconsistant. Say we are fighting a group with 100 mobs. We aoe taunt, they all run at us.  100 swing, but only 50 get a proc of HTL off.. so only 50 are given more aggro.  In another second, they all swing again.25 will have had 2 HTL procs50 will have had 1 HTL proc25 will have had 0 HTL procs.So now a warlocks casts devestation.  The 25 with 2 procs are on solid. The 50 with 1 proc are hopefully on us. But the 25 with 1 proc will all break loose and mug the aoe'er. CLoth people go down fast, 1/2 to 1/4 of the mobs breaking free to mug them.Suggested fix:Make it proc ANYTIME the mob attacks us, even if they hit, miss, are parried, are warded, are rippoed.Make it proc 100% so it is reliable (or at least as spell level goes up, proc rate should go up.. make master1 over 90% and it will at last be dependable).Make it proc a little less hate to make up for what we gained above, I would rather see 100% proc of 200 hate then 50% proc of 400 hate... or at least 90% proc of 250 hate.<div></div><hr></blockquote>did you get a boost of int tuna???  thanks for saying what i couldn't put into words

[TunaBoo]

I always had int, I just usually keep my str gear on.<div></div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:Suggested fix:Make it proc ANYTIME the mob attacks us, even if they hit, miss, are parried, are warded, are rippoed.Make it proc 100% so it is reliable (or at least as spell level goes up, proc rate should go up.. make master1 over 90% and it will at last be dependable).Make it proc a little less hate to make up for what we gained above, I would rather see 100% proc of 200 hate then 50% proc of 400 hate... or at least 90% proc of 250 hate.<hr></blockquote><p>It sounds good on paper, but I think it'd be easily overpowering.  Ours is single target only, 50% chance to proc on an attack for 326 threat.  So you want 100% for about 126 less threat, but on any mob that even tries to attack you...</p><p>I dunno how that would work out.</p>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>It works out as monks would still hold better single aggro.. but guardians would be the best aoe aggro holders and not pallys. Our aoe aggro is too inconsistant and justs leads to aoe-ers gettign wiped on any fight that takes over 10 seconds, its wee-todd-did.Aggro is getting to inconsistent, which makes people peeling based on luck (did you get 4/5 HTL procs off or 1/5? no way for anyone to know), rather than knowing your class and your limits.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:16 PM</span></p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:It works out as monks would still hold better single aggro.. but guardians would be the best aoe aggro holders and not pallys. Our aoe aggro is too inconsistant and justs leads to aoe-ers gettign wiped on any fight that takes over 10 seconds, its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I wasn't arguing about your lack of effective aoe aggro holding, I've seen it first hand from just about every fighter.</p><p>I'm just saying that your solution might be a bit overpowering and just one click hold aggro like prior to the combat changes, which I personally thought was boring.</p><p>If a caster or something is going all out crazy, they should have to fear pulling aggro imho.</p><p>All in all your idea isn't bad, I just think its a bit much <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>100% proc of 200 hate is NOT one click aggro. A caster going all out WILL still peel.As it is now, I can tank 24 mobs in PPTR for 30 seconds to build HTL aggro. Then a warlock with 1 devestation or a conj with 1 EV will peel 10 of the 24 mobs. This is a problem with aggro generation.As you love to quote devs, guardians were told we were the masters of aoe aggro. We are not, pally with amends still does better.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:24 PM</span></p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><div></div><p>Hmn...from what you saying your healers wards and your own parry, blocks are actually working against you when using HTL?</p><p>Making proc everytime ur hit would be > than anything aggro out there, so thats not the solution.</p><p>Making it proc 50% of the time no matter what would probably be roughly in line with amends. Im not against making it better, I'm just disagreeing with the Amends magic pill posts ive been seeing.</p><p>Actually, the paly forums are replete with posts by Palys as to amends is great, BUT, its not what everyone out there makes it out to be.</p><p>Yes, my guild has a Paladin who MT's raids sometimes. I see no difference in the way both the Guard and Paly draw aggro, and Im almost always in the MT grp on the tough raids.</p><p>I suggest a middle of the road solution, but it seems most guards just want it to proc every single time they get hit. Everything here is extremes.</p><p>We should have the most hit points</p><p>We should have the most mitigation</p><p>We should have the best aggro</p><p>Our shields should be better than everyone else</p><p> </p><p>We should have...We should, We should....</p><p>Thats great for the guy whos gonna tank, but it screws every other Guard out there. Do you guys realize that you're arguing for your own class to have even less use when not tanking? I dont remember a single dev promising you would be the best. I did hear about some game guide out there that stated that you would be.</p><p>I feel bad for the people who followed that game guide, and SoE did state that they reserved the right to change the game.</p><p>You are guys arent nearly as gimped in tanking as Palys were prior to revamp.</p><p>Does your HTL line need to be revised? Maybe, from what wabit is posting, it should be. although even if that were the case it clearly hasnt made Palys the preferred raid MT. I am of the suspicion, along with many other tanks of all types, that in the end, for every guard who has a reasonable suggestion, theres 5 out there who just want be the best at everything and screw the other classes.</p><p>Whichever way you look at it. I posted recently about giving <font color="#ff0000">ALL</font> tanks an aggro siphon. Its the way you guys approach the issue that causes all other fighters to fuzz up, because we will not go back to the pre-revamp tanking situation.</p><p>EDIT: Devs did state you would be kings of aggro, but they also said crusaders would have the largest power pool. They also said that Palys and Guards would share the heavy tanking tier, but guards continuously state that they are the ONLY heavy tank. Promises were made, but not all promises were followed through, on both sides.</p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:34 PM</span></p>

[TunaBoo]

I don't see guards saying pallys couldn't tank, they can talk about their tanking skills in their own thread and forum.This thread is about HTL.HTL does not give us CONSISTENT aoe aggro holding ability. A tank without CONSISTENT aggro holding ability is useless.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>actully i started this thread comparing how HtL compares to the bralwer procs and amends...  it might have been better suited for the combat forums, but i really don't care to get it flooded with scouts and mages that are for the most part clueless on a tanks agro generation...</p><p>i'm honestly a lil surprised no bruisers or zerkers (it is a warrior issue after all) have chimed in on this...</p><p>but the feedback has been good so far, without alot of rant or flames (besides my own :smileysurprised: )...  but i really would like to be the king of AE agro like moor said, not middle of the road... </p><p>since DoF came out alot of things seem to be luck based instead of skill...  ie black queen, 2 differnt tries i've had either myself ported (MT), or all 3 healers from the MT group (lost all my buffs i was 2 shoted)...  taunt resists (wiped the entire raid a few times on resisted taunts on pull)...  the horrid amounts of memblurs...  some of these can be delt with to an extent...  monk pull, time the memwipe, ect... </p><p>i like the idea of tanks doing things differently...  bralwers get the hit proc, paly gets the syphons, SKs get shafted, warriors get HtL...  it adds a little flavor to the different classes...</p>

[MoonglumHMV]

<div>I suggested this in another thread, but it goes better in this thread...</div><div> </div><div>What if HTL proced a encounter or AOE taunt?  The fact that it could proc multiple MOB's with only one having to hit, would help in the consistancy of it, and also would help in pealing MOB's off of others as long as there was still at least one still attacking you.</div>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>Proccing aoe taunt would make it even better vs multis and even worse vs singles, as the proc amount would need scaled down. Our single aggro is already horrid, I don't want to lose any more.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:49 PM</span></p>

[Poochymama]

<div></div>The berserker version only has a 20% chance so it's even more useless than the guard version.

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Ladicav,</p><p>       The onus is not on me to prove that my amends is overpowered compared to your HTL. Its on you. You guys brought it up. Show me your parses where amends generated more aggro than your HTL and then you'll convince ME. As it stands, I'm sure the devs have taken a look at it already, since it was already nerfed once. Either way, I dont have to convince you of anything.</p><p>My guilds MT is a guard and he holds aggro fine.</p><p>Wabits guild's MT is a paly and he holds aggro just fine.</p><p>Both have killed the same mobs. What is the big deal about it.  Mystics were aggro machines PRIOR to revamp. Are you seriously telling me that a mystic will generate more aggro than an assasin? or a ranger? or a warlock? <font color="#ff3300"><u>Show me on a graph or a mathematical formula the amount of aggro that healers in an MT grp generate. </u></font><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000"><u>Then show me how much more aggro a Paladin generates than a guard using Amends vs HTL</u></font>. If you cant, then your using those "anecdotes" you so love to accuse others of using.</font></p><p>I didnt think so. Again, I would not have posted here if someone had not brought up amends and how terribly broken your HTL line is compared to it. Every other post in your forums is about how unhappy, broken, or nerfed your guard is...</p><p>Tanking is MUCH more balanced now thats it ever been. All tanks lose aggro, not just guards. Is amends better in an XP grp? YES. Is it better in a raid? NO. Even I were to grant that amends is better in a raid, that does nothing because then you guys will complain about something else. If amends was such the aggro magic pill then Paladins would be the number 1 raid tank, and thats FAR from true. Amends is just another tool that lets Palys close the gap between tanks.</p><p>How many guilds have a Guard MT vs a Paly MT?</p><p>Thats right, then amends isnt overpowered.</p><p>How many guilds have a Monk MT vs a Guard MT?</p><p>Thats right, their stance isnt overpowered.</p><p>Those are facts, BTW, Ladicav. If these monk and paly skills were so overpowering, then Guards wouldnt be the preferred MT's right? Again, you guys confuse utility vs tanking. People pick Palys and Monks to tank over guards because of utility, not aggro. Monks have notoriously poor AE aggro as it is.</p><p>The only tanks that have underpowered aggro skills are SK's..... and Monks and Bruisers AE aggro.</p><p>BTW, amends is 39%, not 41%. It was nerfed.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:58 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Nice try. I don't play a paladin, but hey YOU do. If I had a paladin of equivelent level as my Guardian, mark my words I would have parsed it already extensively. But since you are a paladin that jumped forums to give us your well versed view, I dare say you do need to back your claims. You could easily parse this and put us out of our misery if you feel so strongly that you are correct, hey? You see I've done the research already on the Guardian side, so I have a basis for calling anyone out on emotive anecdotals, yes including you. Here follow this link. Read through it, all of it. Soak it up, read the numbers, read the HTL proc rate, see how low it is for everything else other than offensive stance dual wield, which is oh so much the preferred stance for tanking a raid mob. Take off those rose coloured glasses you wear and you will quickly see HTL is a basket case. Do some quick parses with your paladin and determine what your approx agro generation rate is, then get back to me.</p><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=31628" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=31628</a></p><p>Sorry bud, I HAVE the Guardian data already, already put in a lot of time to back up my assumptions, so I can make the assumptions on a realistic basis. If I had a paladin I would have done those parses again. However, YOU haven't done anything, have presented nothing, so I still declare you basing everything on just emotive anecdotal evidence. You just throw bunches of text onto a forum and expect us to believe your word is God. Well sorry for me being a skeptic and calling you on it. You're just going to have to deal with it. You haven't shown me any hard evidence, other than your overinflated ego opinion which you are trying to pass of as fact. But without any numbers to back up what you are saying how do you know you are correct? You could have it really wrong, and prancing about declaring you are right. The truth and fact is, you just do not know. So stop trying to convince me you do.</p><p>Don't you talk to me about onus.</p><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:59 PM</span></p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><div><div>There is no way to parse amends. What is soooo hard to understand about that? I mean, are you trying to be difficult or does it come naturally. HTL is easy to parse, amends is not. Amends siphons 39 to 41% hate right? How much hate is that mystic generating with wards? or the fury? ITS PROBABLY LESS THAT WHAT HTL IS GENERATING,</div><div> </div><div>There is NO way to parse healer aggro at all. Show me a way to parse ranger aggro? YOU CANT, CAN YOU. In an MT grp you're not going to sacrifice a healer or a buffer for a ZERK or DPS. You CAN if you want, but how many guilds out there really use that set up?</div><div> </div><div>Sigh, its not that hard, Ladicav. Dont get all emotional on me, bro. I'm not going to argue with you. A raid fight on alot longer than normal fight and you dont have to sacrifice buffs to put a DPS in the MT grp.</div></div><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>haven't tested this out recently but it used to be 1 taunt = 1 heal (ward/green number), 1 dps...  that was back LU15ish (has it changed???)...  the only thing that doesn't show up is the amount of hate generated per taunt (but high or low is only a couple hundred threat variance)...  wards make up well over half to 2/3 of my heals in most fights but they aren't parsed (i've done the math after a fight to compare to the total number of HP healed...</p><p>i also can only parse how often a taunt is resisted the game itself doesn't generate a message like your confront makes xyz mad at you for 1000 threat...</p><p>i'll do some math in Gates tonight just to see how much damage is warded on just me...  then list the tops dps, and top healer...  the dps will probably be a little low, ppl haveing more fun in beta than the equip druid zone :smileysad:</p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>You guys need more people like Wabit. Now that guy can make an argument! :smileywink:</p><p>Doesnt resort to personal attacks, doesnt apply hysterics, and he stays civil. Bah, you're playing the wrong class. Come over to the Paly side, man.</p><p> </p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<p>Doesnt resort to personal attacks, doesnt apply hysterics, and he stays civil. Bah, you're playing the wrong class. Come over to the Paly side, man.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Translation:</p><p>"Join me, and together we'll rule the Galaxy as Father and Son..."</p><p>/shakes fist</p>

[Bi]

<span><blockquote><hr>MoonglumHMV wrote:<div>I suggested this in another thread, but it goes better in this thread...</div><div> </div><div>What if HTL proced a encounter or AOE taunt?  The fact that it could proc multiple MOB's with only one having to hit, would help in the consistancy of it, and also would help in pealing MOB's off of others as long as there was still at least one still attacking you.</div><hr>Awesome suggestion.I dont think Tuna's point about not having great single-target agro is valid. Surely this bolsters the discrepancy and diversity between tanks?I'm not sure about the 100% taunt on being attacked. Surely then brawlers will want a 100% proc hate taunt, and palys would be left in the 'nearly but not quite' land that they were in pre amends patch. I find the proc taunts in their current state are almost 1click agro control in some situations. I would hope that agro control doesnt come down to just putting buffs up. Personally I liked the pre-patch way of buffing as an agro controller, as it at least gave some skill to holding agro (moreso for brawlers than warriors)Just to post for discussion's sake: If a paly can hold agro better, does he take the same amount of damage as a guard? In a raid situation surely the #1 priority is keeping the tank alive, and THEN taking the encounter down faster.This would mean that guardians are better for healer heavier raids and the harder raids?I think that the AoE proc similar to the fury's damage-shield would be a good way to ease the pain (or add a AoE HTL skill on the same timer as HTL that proced slightly less, as an AoE taunt on being hit would be pretty powerful)</blockquote></span><div></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>After playong D&D Online, i have to say, our agro maintanance as Guardians is pretty good.</p><p>DDO, so far, has the mob going after a random person in the group, and then attach the last person that did damage or healed when it's their turn to hit.</p><p>In other words, mass chaos.</p><p>Not that that has anything to do with HTL being inefficient.</p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div><div>There is no way to parse amends. What is soooo hard to understand about that? I mean, are you trying to be difficult or does it come naturally. HTL is easy to parse, amends is not. Amends siphons 39 to 41% hate right? How much hate is that mystic generating with wards? or the fury? ITS PROBABLY LESS THAT WHAT HTL IS GENERATING,</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff6666">No. The correct answer is YOU DON'T KNOW. This is exactly my point. You have no basis for your assumptions. Why the hell are you going off at me. It's not probably less, it's not probably more, it's YOU DO NOT KNOW. And since you don't know you have no basis for coming up with probablys, ifs, buts and/or maybes.</font></div><div> </div><div>There is NO way to parse healer aggro at all.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff6633">So then how do you know it's less, IN YOUR BIG CAPITAL LETTERS.</font></div><div> </div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff6633">I'm not being difficult. And I'm not going to fight about it. You're being innane. Making claims you cannot possibly substantiate then trying to tell us it's fact. Are you through yet????</font>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><div></div><p>OMG, are you throwing tantrums again?</p><p>Let me explain to you why healer aggro is less. Next time u hang around your healer friends. Ask him to grp with an assasin or conjurer. Then have the healer pull with his leet ward or heal. See how long he keeps aggro against the assasin or conjurer.</p><p>Therefore its less aggro than DPS. Thats pretty simple, man. Jeez. If any tank, EVER, loses aggro to a healer, they suck and suck bad.</p><p>ON amends. You must not read, just press reply real quick. Im going to break this down for you as simply as I can. Wabit seems to undestand this point, but you are having difficulties.</p><p>Amends siphons hate, right? Now, how much aggro does a mystic ward generate.....or a warlocks devastation? Can you at least agree that an Assasins backstab type CA will generate MORE aggro that a fury regen? or a templar reactive?</p><p>So its siphoning hate, BUT YOUN CANT PARSE HOW MUCH THEY ARE GENERATING. No one in this game can parse the aggro of a healer, but every tank sure as day knows that a warlock or a wizard will generate MORE hate than an Inquisitor.</p><p>What is so hard to understand about this, Ladicav. There are no programs that can parse aggro on any char. NONE. You cant even parse fighter aggro because you dont take into account how much aggro your CA type spells generate.</p><p>is that easy enough for you to understand? You can parse something like HTL because you can calculate the # of hits you take and HTL is based off hits. If I cast amends on a wizard I cant calculate how much aggo he is causing because no one knows how much aggro ICE COMET generates....but any guard worth his salt knows it will steal aggro alot faster than druid regens.</p><p>Stop trying to be difficult. Wabit acknowledges the difficulty of parsing healer aggro. <font color="#ff0000">Not even the devs have come out and said exactly what is the formula for aggro for non-tanks. </font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"></font> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:43 AM</span></p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>Gates tonight-  time / healed / attacks / hits / no damage hits / warded / HtL resists</p><p>Loremaster Viswin-          1:52 / 17578 /   55 /  39 /    22 / 13550 / 2</p><p>darkleague assassian-      1:35 / 33139 /  85 /  50 /    23 / 16866 / 2</p><p>Ritual Mistress Cheroon-   1:53 / 38377 / 56 /   47 /   14 / 11808 / 6</p><p>Asaad Ahk Atum-               1:56 / 75097 / 261 / 208 / 90 / 26874 / 7</p><p>Foreman Ytalzak-              1:19 / 13450 /  22 /  16 /    4 /  4911 /    1</p><p>Magrick the Destroyer-      3:15 / 16969 /  95 /  56 /   34 / 23903 / 10</p><p>The Dark Arbiter-               1:47 / 22948 /  47 /  35 /   10 / 7119 /   2</p><p>Xideus Yoatiak-                  1:44 / 7000 /    32 / 19 /    13 / 3764 /   0</p><p>The Guardian of the Orbs- 2:17 / 8889 /    38 / 25 /    18 / 5581 /   1</p><p>Dinree-                               3:46 / 93216 /  301 / 206 / 84 / 49128 / 21</p><p>Ahk'Mun Rhoen-                2:22 / 50238 /  130 /   97 / 36 / 22091 / 4</p><p>Akh'Uzh Orus-                   2:04 / 24047 /  88 /    68  / 34 / 19921 / 3</p><p>Googhan-                           3:04 / 76939 / 182 /  125 / 51 / 27929 / 7</p><p>total= 477887 healed / 233445 warded / 1392 attempted hits / 855 sucessful hits / 433 no damage taken hits / 66 resisted HtL procs / 29ish mins (1740 secs)...</p><p>now HtL was on for probably 90% of total fight time (gotta position mobs after all), we used a monk pull when we could...  MT group was me, templar, defiler, warden, coercer, conj except for dinree (conj droped and logged on jewler, i took a paly)...  was a very healer heavy raid (9 total), 6 total tanks, and yes killing was slow...  died 2 times once for an odd double knockback (7k falling damage), and once to the named snake (bad pull)...  too low on dps for me to want and try the kdal type named...</p><p>we had mystic and defile in raid, but only had the defiler really do any warding...  i also just counted the heals/wards on myself so any direct heals and dps are not counted towards the MT group defiler...  i was never prewarded on any pull either... now for the math part =/...  (note there is no chat filter that counts successful taunts, so i'm useing the numbers in the description, there is also no way to tell which person gave me a ward to offset that i'm not counting any dps or direct heals or debuffs)...</p><p>on a 1 : 1 : 1 scale (taunt, heal, clean dps) cause it still feels colse to that ingame...  and by clean dps i mean just damage without the stiffle/stun/root/interupt/debuff (those all add extra hate)</p><p>855 - 433 = 422 hits that did damage...  422 * .5 = ~211 chances for HtL to proc...  211 - 66 = 145 sucessful HtL procs</p><p>so 145 * 444 threat (ID M1) = 64380 hate gained via guardian HtL for entire raid = 37 hate per sec</p><p>233445 * .41 (amends M1) = 95712.45 for the entire raid = 55 hate per sec</p><p>HtL only works on a singe target, where amends on a healer adds hate to every mob in the encounter...  even if my defiler was only half of the wards it would be 47856 hate gained from warding just me (27 hate per sec to entire encounter), i know his group ward went off for ppl in the group (AE's), he did drop a couple nukes, debuffs, ect...</p><p>this is my agrument that HtL doesn't hold a candle to the syphon of a paly (also if paly was MT he would have been prewarded)...  please don't ask me to do this for another raid, i'll got nuts sorting threw the notepad log to fine the total i was warded each fight...  it took me over 4 hrs to complete this post...</p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#ff0000">Not even the devs have come out and said exactly what is the formula for aggro for non-tanks. </font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>cuase they probably don't know what it is either...  it takes players to figure it out and explain it to them...  just think back to how druids prerevamp were agro magnets

[Ladicav]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>OMG, are you throwing tantrums again?</p><p><font color="#66ffff">No, I just like seeing you squirm while you tie yourself up in knots.</font></p><p>Let me explain to you why healer aggro is less. Next time u hang around your healer friends. Ask him to grp with an assasin or conjurer. Then have the healer pull with his leet ward or heal. See how long he keeps aggro against the assasin or conjurer.</p><p><font color="#66ffff">You like to state the bleeding obvious, over and over, instead of actually answering directly.</font></p><p>Therefore its less aggro than DPS. Thats pretty simple, man. Jeez. If any tank, EVER, loses aggro to a healer, they suck and suck bad.</p><p><font color="#66ffff">We didn't compare Amends to DPS, we compared it to HTL, remember? Stop drifting from what you were trying to pass off as fact. </font></p><p>ON amends. You must not read, just press reply real quick. Im going to break this down for you as simply as I can. Wabit seems to undestand this point, but you are having difficulties.</p><p><font color="#66ffff">No I'm not having difficulties. I didn't need you to explain in the first place how amends works.</font></p><p>Amends siphons hate, right? Now, how much aggro does a mystic ward generate.....or a warlocks devastation? Can you at least agree that an Assasins backstab type CA will generate MORE aggro that a fury regen? or a templar reactive?</p><p><font color="#ff6633"><font color="#66ffff">Yes I agree that Assassin backstab CA generates more agro than a heal. But once again, we aren't comparing DPS hate to HTL. So, can you guarantee those heals, generate less hate over time than HTL alone?</font> </font></p><p>So its siphoning hate, BUT YOUN CANT PARSE HOW MUCH THEY ARE GENERATING. No one in this game can parse the aggro of a healer, but every tank sure as day knows that a warlock or a wizard will generate MORE hate than an Inquisitor.</p><p><font color="#66ffff">Yes, exactly. So why are you shouting at me. Once again, how is it fact that amends generates less hate than HTL alone, what dod you base this on? Are you getting this yet?</font></p><p>So if you don't know how much they are generating, how can you pass of as fact that amends, definitely, absolutely guaranteed 100% generates less hate than HTL?</p><p>What is so hard to understand about this, Ladicav. There are no programs that can parse aggro on any char. NONE. You cant even parse fighter aggro because you dont take into account how much aggro your CA type spells generate.</p><p><font color="#66ffff">Fine it cannot be parsed. So what piece of definitive information did you come across that proves amends on wards and heals generates less hate than HTL?</font></p><p>is that easy enough for you to understand? You can parse something like HTL because you can calculate the # of hits you take and HTL is based off hits. If I cast amends on a wizard I cant calculate how much aggo he is causing because no one knows how much aggro ICE COMET generates....but any guard worth his salt knows it will steal aggro alot faster than druid regens.</p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:43 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#66ffff">I always read the replys, and think before I respond. But did you even read my reply? Go back over it. I know how heals work, I know how wards work and if you one more time try to explain the bleeding obvious then it isn't me who isn't understanding.</font></p><p><font color="#66ffff">You don't know how much hate wards or heals generate. So can you categorically factually guarantee that amends siphons less hate than HTL from wards or heals? No, you can't. I was disputing your claim because it's all just an assumption, and that was the whole point of my <em>first post</em> on the matter yet you still insist to state the bloody obvious 4 posts later. I'm tired of this. It is clearly you who cannot comprehend. You are just assuming siphoning from heals and wards generate less hate per second than HTL, based on....what? What exactly? You can't parse it like you say, so you don't know. Your assumption has no basis, on anything, whatsoever. Yet you were trying to pass off as <em>fact</em>. The only fact is that YOU DON'T KNOW. Wabit doesn't know either, despite what you think he says. None of us knows. So what piece of information do you have over the rest of us that makes you pass assumptions as fact? All you have established is that it is less than an assassin backstab, or a wizard nuke or even good melee DPS, but you never sought to hit the nail on the head. And because of this, you have convinced me of nothing, 4 pissant posts later.</font></p><p><font color="#66ffff">So help me if you spiel the wards and heals siphon crud again.</font></p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>Amends siphons hate. DPS creates more hate than healing. To make amends as useful in a MT grp as HTL in a raid you need to substitute a DPS for a a buffer or healer.</p><p>Actually it is a fact.</p><p>I can do it this way if you wish.</p><p>I can put amends on a healer and I can put amends on a ranger. Who do you think will allow me to keep aggro longer? BTW, thats a FACT.</p><p>You are not making me squirm, :smileywink:. I have had this argument with better people than you and who post much more intelligently than you as well. Wabit makes a much better argument for HTL than you could possibly ever make. You base your argument off XP grps, which I clearly stated that Amends was better. Its ok, man. It really is...i'll keep posting my "pissant" posts as long as it takes. :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>We can agree to disagree if you wish. I know from personal experience that DPS creates more aggro than healer skills. You can ask the question in the Paly forums. I betcha they will agree with me. :smileyhappy:</p>

[Aar]

Amends siphons hate. DPS creates more hate than healing. To make amends as useful in a MT grp as HTL in a raid you need to substitute a DPS for a a buffer or healer.For single targets, yes.  However, heals/wards are generating that agro on the entire encounter, as are the regens, nukes, etc.   You can also tweak with it a bit by transfering agro (pick a scout ability) to the healer.   As long as you are taking 41% of the agro, its very difficult for that healer to out-agro you, even when buffed with agro transfers, and increasers.This also works better with oranges, as heals/wards don't ever get resisted, and the heal/warding amount required actually goes up.<div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><div>yes, but HTL would generate alot more aggro with multiple mobs in a raid, since it would proc alot more. raid mobs hit alot more and they get blocked alot less than normal XP mobs. A lvl 65 raid mob would probably hit a guard quite a bit, even with wards, ToS, and such. yah, taunts would get resisted, but so do palys taunts.</div><div> </div><div>I am unsure that when a ward gets hit it generates the same amount of aggro as when HTL procs, since we really cant tell. I wish we could. I would love to see how much aggro my own ward generates :smileysad:</div>

[Wasuna]

<div></div>In my limited experiance the adds that come with the big bosses can usually be mezed do HTL doesn't help with them.

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div>yes, but HTL would generate alot more aggro with multiple mobs in a raid, since it would proc alot more. raid mobs hit alot more and they get blocked alot less than normal XP mobs. A lvl 65 raid mob would probably hit a guard quite a bit, even with wards, ToS, and such. yah, taunts would get resisted, but so do palys taunts. <font color="#ff00ff">its inconsistant agro though, it'll be on only the mob that actully did damage...</font></div><div> </div><div>I am unsure that when a ward gets hit it generates the same amount of aggro as when HTL procs, since we really cant tell. I wish we could. I would love to see how much aggro my own ward generates :smileysad:  <font color="#ff00ff">i honestly can test a paly selfward (i'm not one), but took a mystic with me today, and played with things some...  1 AE taunt then do nothing else just let a group of 58 heroics (raptors) beat on me...  after the ward had taken 800 points of damge they all peeled off towards him...  did this on several encounters just to test it out, was the same thing everytime as soon as the ward went over the 800 mark the peeled...  now i did AE taunt and a single taunt on one of them, auto attacked another...  at the 800 mark the other 1 or 2 peeled...  so it seems that 1 point of ward = 1 point of taunt in this limited test...</font></div><hr></blockquote><div>most of the encounters i listed had 3 or 4 mobs in them...  and the more mobs there is in an encounter the more amends pulls ahead when on a healer... </div><div> </div><div>take PPR the 30 skels at once yes i get hit more times but the agro gain is only towards that one mob...  so about 20 secs in half of them peel off to overnuking warlock cause they didn't proc a taunt or wards/blocks/miss...  take the hate added from the wards and spread it evenly the adds won't peel near as fast...</div><div> </div><div>Siyamak from last week 65x4 no adds 51 attacks, 31 hits, 13 for no damage...  so 18 chances for HtL to proc at 50% thats 9 chances and 1 was resisted...  so 8 * 444 = 3552 over the span of the 5:20 (320 sec) it took to kill her or 11.1 hate per sec...</div><div> </div><div>Sunchild in a 4:58 (31<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> fight 90 attacks, 75 hits, 32 for no damage...  43 hits for damage, so 22 procs (7 were resisted) so 15 will be 6660 hate or 21 hate per sec...</div><div> </div><div>i'm not diggin threw my logfile to find out the total numbers warded en stuff (i'll go nuts)...  but if all you need is one person doing 50 hate per sec as a paly with amends to make up for this...  i really can't think of any orange named encounter that has more than a couple adds...</div><div> </div><div>PPR-</div><div>Gutrom the Guardian like 67x4 i think-  1:47, 27 attacks, 21 hits, 4 for no damage, 1 resist...  so figure 8 procs is 33hps...  its really hard to do the other orange named cause without a ring they bounce around alot...</div><div> </div><div>Krathuk the Golden- 1:25 (85 secs), 97 swings, 60 hits, 41 for no damage, 5 resists... 444 [(20 *.5) - 5] / 85 = 26 hps</div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>11.1?  21?  33?  26?</p><p>Add our miserable DPS to that and we're supposed to "lock down" agro?  And that only applies to the one we're attacking.  The other mobs in the group are going to peel and chew up the fors warlock, healer, whatever, that goes over...great tools.  Awesome.</p><p>Here's how it <em>should</em> be figured:</p><p>HTL 50% chance to proc when enemy attacks Guardian.</p><p>Siyamak 65x4 no adds 51 attacks... so 51 chances for HtL to proc at 50% thats 25 chances and 10% were resisted... so 22 * 444 = 9768 over 5:20 (320 sec) or <font color="#ff0000">30.525 hate per sec... (a little better)</font></p><div>Sunchild in a 4:58 (31<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> fight 90 attacks...  so 45 procs (10% were resisted) so 40 will be 17760 hate or <font color="#ff0000">55.85 hate per sec... Nice agro control</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div>Gutrom the Guardian 1:47(107 sec), 27 attacks, 10% resist...  so figure 24 procs is <font color="#ff0000">99.58 hps... Now we're talking.</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">Add our (resistable) taunts and our (miserable) DPS, and i see more of the "lock down" we were supposed to get with LU13.  The key is letting HTL proc thru wards, and on MoB attack in stead of hit.</font></div><div> </div><div>Thanks <font color="#339999">Wabit</font> for the template.</div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div>Although your numbers seem credible, I have a really hard time believing that a mystic ward generates 1 point of taunt per 1 point of ward.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">Sacred Aegis (adept III), if im correct, has a </font>2 second cast time, .5 recovery and 6 second recast time for 1354 points of ward. Thats means that the mystic is "taunting" for 1354 aggro every 6 seconds?</div><div> </div><div>That sounds a bit skewed. </div><div> </div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>Although your numbers seem credible, I have a really hard time believing that a mystic ward generates 1 point of taunt per 1 point of ward.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">Sacred Aegis (adept III), if im correct, has a </font>2 second cast time, .5 recovery and 6 second recast time for 1354 points of ward. Thats means that the mystic is "taunting" for 1354 aggro every 6 seconds?</div><div> </div><div>That sounds a bit skewed. </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>i had him use a ward for about in the 800 range (forget the name), just so its compareable to my AE taunt...  and it would be every 8 secs with the cast and recast...  i did this in a controled duo setting...  no hate modifiers (dirge, troub, coercer, paly, or even assuage)...  once you add those factors in the modifer is different...</p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>Although your numbers seem credible, I have a really hard time believing that a mystic ward generates 1 point of taunt per 1 point of ward.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">Sacred Aegis (adept III), if im correct, has a </font>2 second cast time, .5 recovery and 6 second recast time for 1354 points of ward. Thats means that the mystic is "taunting" for 1354 aggro every 6 seconds?</div><div> </div><div>That sounds a bit skewed. </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Whats skewed is this :Amends not only gives the Pally 41% extra hate from one person, its reducs that classes hate by 41%, so in effect is an 82% gain net for the Pally.  guardians cannot even come close to that.Putting it on a healer, or a DPS isnt the issue, its the fact that amends is an insane DPs tool, its costs you 0 power once its up, even when the pally is at 0 power he can generate terrific agro.  a Guardian with HTL up and 0 power might as well not be there, they need to cycle ALL their taunts and get lucky with HTL to approach the agro generation of the pally.  Wabits numbers show this.</span></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>Although your numbers seem credible, I have a really hard time believing that a mystic ward generates 1 point of taunt per 1 point of ward.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">Sacred Aegis (adept III), if im correct, has a </font>2 second cast time, .5 recovery and 6 second recast time for 1354 points of ward. Thats means that the mystic is "taunting" for 1354 aggro every 6 seconds?</div><div> </div><div>That sounds a bit skewed. </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>If the tank is taking 1354 damage every 8 seconds, i.e. the ward is getting used up, then yes, the ward alone generates 1354 hate for the mystic.  If the guardian's HTL proc + Taunt + DPS doesn't stay above that, then the healer gets beat on.</p><p>Flip side:</p><p>If the tank is a pally, taking same damage, then the healer gets a 41% reduction ( takes 812.4 hate) and the pally gains 41% hate ( takes 541.6 hate).  So the pally needs to generate 541.6 amends + paly heals + paly DPS + paly Taunt > 812.4 + healer DPS.</p><p>Seems like a better deal, Definatly less resists-plagued.  Less variables in agro control is always a good thing for a tank.</p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>Amends siphons hate. DPS creates more hate than healing. To make amends as useful in a MT grp as HTL in a raid you need to substitute a DPS for a a buffer or healer.</p><p>Actually it is a fact.</p><p>I can do it this way if you wish.</p><p>I can put amends on a healer and I can put amends on a ranger. Who do you think will allow me to keep aggro longer? BTW, thats a FACT.</p><p>You are not making me squirm, :smileywink:. I have had this argument with better people than you and who post much more intelligently than you as well. Wabit makes a much better argument for HTL than you could possibly ever make. You base your argument off XP grps, which I clearly stated that Amends was better. Its ok, man. It really is...i'll keep posting my "pissant" posts as long as it takes. :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>We can agree to disagree if you wish. I know from personal experience that DPS creates more aggro than healer skills. You can ask the question in the Paly forums. I betcha they will agree with me. :smileyhappy:</p><hr></blockquote><p>Actually yes, you really are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Who are you are arguing with? It's certainly not me, you're off on your own little tangent. I have a hard time believing you have argued your point with others about this, because you don't even seem to understand the point. Comparing to DPS again, and amends on rangers and who knows god what else. Who gives a rats clacker. You are deliberately, totally avoiding the question and the scenario. And I'm sure I know why.</p><p>It's reaaaaaaally simple. You amends a healer and the guardian has HTL. All the healer does is heal you every time he/she thinks you need it, all the Guardian does is stand there and let HTL work.</p><p>How do you know, based on what information and facts, that amends generates less hate than HTL per second to be able to declare it as <em>fact</em>. Not speculations, not ifs, buts or maybes but categorically as a fact.</p><p>It's still not fact, it's still your assumption.</p><p>This is my last post on this, because you just refuse to acknowledge this very simple basic scenario and keep trying to cloud it in bulldust.</p><p> </p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>awww, you poor thing. Its ok, man. Dont take it personal. I can twist that whole argument right back at you and say that if you dont know how much aggro heals cause, then how can you be sooo sure that amends is better than HTL?</p><p>Neither of us know, pumpkin. :smileywink:</p><p>Until the devs go out and give us numbers the point is moot, I guess.</p>

[Wabit]

<blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>awww, you poor thing. Its ok, man. Dont take it personal. I can twist that whole argument right back at you and say that if you dont know how much aggro heals cause, then how can you be sooo sure that amends is better than HTL?</p><p>Neither of us know, pumpkin. :smileywink:</p><p>Until the devs go out and give us numbers the point is moot, I guess.</p><hr></blockquote>cause this can be tested and parsed...  i've shown what i've seen in game, the parses...  the evidance is there...  find you're own to refute mine...

[Arpophyllum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>Although your numbers seem credible, I have a really hard time believing that <font color="#66ffcc">a mystic ward generates 1 point of taunt per 1 point of ward.</font></div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>I remember someone else doing parsing a few months back who came to the same conclusions: 1 point of healing = 1 point of damage = 1 point of taunt</p><p>I wish I could remember the details of it.</p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div>I would have to disagree. Taunts have a clear number when it comes to aggro. If 1 point of healing = 1 point of dps = 1 point of aggro, then mystics would have the best single taunt in the game by far.</div><div> </div><div>That makes no sense to me. I'll wait for the devs to post something conclusive.</div>

[Arpophyllum]

<blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>I would have to disagree. Taunts have a clear number when it comes to aggro. If 1 point of healing = 1 point of dps = 1 point of aggro, then mystics would have the best single taunt in the game by far.</div><div> </div><div>That makes no sense to me. I'll wait for the devs to post something conclusive.</div><hr></blockquote>Heh, I don't have any stake in the opinions expressed in that post, only stating that it may not be as ludicrous as it seems. Besides, it's a massive oversimplification that ignores buffs, debuffs, CA's that do more than damage, etc. The total picture of combat isn't accurately described by that formula. I know as a coercer that breeze has some hate value to it even at the start of combat. So, unless you do all your parses w/out any buffs up, you're never going to be sure if it wasn't damage+<some hate value for a buff>=aggro position.

[mastersard]

<div></div>We're not saying Amends is too powerful, we're saying HTL is not powerful enough.

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>I would have to disagree. Taunts have a clear number when it comes to aggro. If 1 point of healing = 1 point of dps = 1 point of aggro, then mystics would have the best single taunt in the game by far.</div><div> </div><div>That makes no sense to me. I'll wait for the devs to post something conclusive.</div><hr></blockquote>Why wait on the devs? This is a no brainer of a test. Walk up to a mob with the Mystic right next to you, taunt it, have the Mystic ward you. If the Mystic pulls aggro from you, then they have generated more aggro then you. For example, use Confront, and then just stand there and don't attack. Mystic wards you. Mystic casts Sacred Aegis.Confront M1 generates 1044-1276 hate. Sacred Aegic M1 wards for 1352 of damage. If the Mystic pulls aggro, then you've at least established the Mystic generated at least 1044 hate and possibly over 1276 hate.Anyways, don't hold your breath waiting for devs to post anything. In EQ1, it took tons of parsing to come up with formulas that agreed with statistical analysis. Devs rarely come out and say what the formulas are, because that takes the mystery out of the game. They want you to try to figure out things on your own. Learn what works and what doesn't, and not be told what does.The most difficult thing about caculating hate in EQ2 is that taunts don't have a fixed value, like they did in EQ1, which made coming up with more exact figures a bit easier. But the range is small enough that over a large enough sampling size you'll probably be able to determine simple things as how much aggro do heals generate, wards, dps, debuffs, etc.It just takes time and the will to do the logical test scenarios and the mounds of data to generate numbers that are statistically valid.</span><div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><p>It still wouldnt make any sense. That would mean my 2k LoH heal would act as another Rescue.</p><p>That would mean that in a raid there would be absolutely <strong><em>NO</em></strong> way that any tank would maintain aggro if the healers in the MT grp are spamming 1k and 1.5 k heals every 6 to 8 secs. If 1 point of heal = 1 point of DPS =1 point of ward = 1 point of aggro...</p><p>Tank taunts for 2 k aggro every 8 secs.</p><p>Healers "taunt "for 7 k aggro every 8 secs, depending on speed and amount of heal and ward.</p><p>Taking a mystic for example. He wards you before or after u pull, and then starts healing you. He would generate way more aggro that the tank. No amount of taunting would peel off the mob. Even a fury with the speed of their heals and regen would "out-taunt" any tank in a raid. </p><p>Hmn, there has to be another formula.</p><p> </p>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>It still wouldnt make any sense. That would mean my 2k LoH heal would act as another Rescue.  <font color="#ff00ff">not quite a rescue, the movement of 3 hate positions is the big deal there...</font></p><p>That would mean that in a raid there would be absolutely <strong><em>NO</em></strong> way that any tank would maintain aggro if the healers in the MT grp are spamming 1k and 1.5 k heals every 6 to 8 secs. If 1 point of heal = 1 point of DPS =1 point of ward = 1 point of aggro...  <font color="#ff00ff">without a dirge or coercer it feels that way...  1.5k over the span of 8 secs, is less than 200 hps...  thats why guards gotta frontload agro ie; AE taunt, AE taunt attack, AE attack (PPR trash mobs) or taunt, taunt attack, AE taunt, CA's (sunchild)...  after the debuffs are on the fight becomes alot more stable...</font></p><p>Tank taunts for 2 k aggro every 8 secs.</p><p>Healers "taunt "for 7 k aggro every 8 secs, depending on speed and amount of heal and ward.  <font color="#ff00ff">but the agro is split up between the different healers its not just one person...</font></p><p>Taking a mystic for example. He wards you before or after u pull, and then starts healing you. He would generate way more aggro that the tank. No amount of taunting would peel off the mob. Even a fury with the speed of their heals and regen would "out-taunt" any tank in a raid.  <font color="#ff00ff">personaly i have assauge on the shammy in MT group (31% hate decreaser)...  but the only ppl that peel agro from me on the pull are shammy or cleric (resisted taunts, prewarded, or alot of hits trigged the entire reactive)...  about 40 secs into a fight its either the warlock or shammy pulling agro from whatever didn't get a HtL proc (PPR trash)...</font></p><p>Hmn, there has to be another formula.</p><hr></blockquote><p>no the forumla is about correct...  its just that in a raid setting, with all the hate modifiers it gets a little skewed...  2 troubs, 1 dirge and one coercer on a raid make a huge difference...  if i'm not tanking i'm in the scout group, swashy and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] transfer me hate, i assasuge the ranger, then sit back and eat popcorn cause with apply poison on me and going full dps i'll pull agro threw their hate...  for the same reason we'll pair up a paly with a warlock...</p><p>but this is getting off the HtL topic...</p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>So if 1 pt of heal = 1 pt of DPS = 1 pt of hate, how much more powerful does HTL need to be?  It's a fixed amount of hate that scales up with number of landed hits (higher level mobs hit more), and then back down with number of taunt resists(higher level mobs resist more).  Also it scales down for fewer landed hits (lower level mobs hit less) and back up for resists (lower level mobs resist less).  But still, the variables are too great.  Not enough procs and too many resists when tanking higher con MoBs.  Change HTL to proc on MoBs <em>swing,</em> and HTL would shine.</p><p>Amends is ideal, simply pick the highest hate generating group member, and bam, solid agro.  It can still be lost, i know (damage/heal spikes will peel mobs).  Add a coercer, dirge, mix and serve, reliable agro for a paly.</p><p>It's not possible with Guardians useing HTL.  Only the high end MT Guardians can pull it off reliably.  Real Life prevents some of us from playing that game.</p>

[Tudd]

And for what it's worth, I agree that HTL is pretty worthless, as are almost all the fighter passive hate generating tools. Amends being the only exception.All the passive hate tools that require hitting or being hit by a mob are most effective when you are in offensive stance, which is when you need aggro the least. The times when you need to generate more aggro through taunts (as when defensive) are exactly the times they are least effective. Due to the simple fact that if you have a need to be defensive, the mob is probably of sufficient difficulty your going to get a lot of resists.It's all part of the design to make things more difficult and exciting. Reduce fighters aggro generation, and now raids/groups can't just burn down mobs. The problem currently with fighter aggro generation is when LU13 came out, the changes to fighter's aggro generation and power consumption just wasn't proportional to the increase in hate and DPS by the other archtypes. Add in the fact that there are buff interactions that probably weren't contemplated at the time (HTL not being effective with wards) and you have a situation where fighters have a hard time maintaining aggro in just about any circumstance that requires a defensive stance.This is by design, of course, but there's a line between challenging and then frustration. Many tanks (and other classes) have crossed that line because of tank's not generating sufficient aggro.Problem is, while everyone else may think this is exciting, it pretty much pisses a tank off when someone grabs aggro. Now, people make stupid mistakes, so you got to cut slack for that. But when people are grabbing aggro even when doing the right things and your blowing power at twice the rate of everyone else in the group/raid, yeah that's going to basically throw people into an uproar.<div></div>

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>It still wouldnt make any sense. That would mean my 2k LoH heal would act as another Rescue.</p><p>That would mean that in a raid there would be absolutely <strong><em>NO</em></strong> way that any tank would maintain aggro if the healers in the MT grp are spamming 1k and 1.5 k heals every 6 to 8 secs. If 1 point of heal = 1 point of DPS =1 point of ward = 1 point of aggro...</p><p>Tank taunts for 2 k aggro every 8 secs.</p><p>Healers "taunt "for 7 k aggro every 8 secs, depending on speed and amount of heal and ward.</p><p>Taking a mystic for example. He wards you before or after u pull, and then starts healing you. He would generate way more aggro that the tank. No amount of taunting would peel off the mob. Even a fury with the speed of their heals and regen would "out-taunt" any tank in a raid. </p><p>Hmn, there has to be another formula.</p><hr></blockquote>Why argue about it? Go do the test yourself.As to your arguments:As stated by others, Rescue moves you up 3 positions on the list and adds hate. Which means if you are 3 positions back, it doesn't matter how much hate the 2 people in front of you have, you jump them and lop another 2k hate on top of that. So no, your LoH won't have anywhere near the taunt power of Rescue.Second, if your tank doesn't have strong taunts or gets enough resists, and he's taking enough damage, you bet the healers will pull aggro off him. Thing your forgetting is that tanks are still generating hate due to DPS. A raid tank will normally generate around 200-250 DPS while tanking. Assuming a 1 to 1 ratio, he'll generate 1200-1500 hate in six seconds. Throw taunts on top of that. Not sure how you figure 2k hate every 8 seconds for a tank, possibly your just taking taunts alone into account. In 8 seconds, he'll generate that much hate almost from DPS alone.So tanks will normally be building a hate lead with every passing second over what the healers are producing in hate. If the tank does take a damage spike and healers have to increase their heals, then hopefully the tank has built up a sufficient lead to make up for their increased hate.Lastly, no single healer is going to generate 7k aggro in 8 seconds due to heals. Look at the cast times, look at the recast times, and you'll see that they can't do it. If your talking about 6 healers generating 7k aggro in 8 seconds, then each of them is only generating 1.1 k aggro each, and therefore each one would still be under the tank on the hate list.As far as the mystic warding and healing you *during* a pull, that's a good way to end up with a dead Mystic. By now, most people have learned the aggro issues with pulls, and employ different tactics to get the job done, such as sending in a monk or pet pulling to name a few. If the tank does need to pull or run in, then there are other strategies to keep the amount of damage taken on the pull/engagement to a minimum, so healers aren't grabbing aggro right off the bat.</span><div></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>Very Fine post, Tuddar, and thank you for your support.</p><p>Anyone else have ideas how HTL could be improved?</p>

[Crim001]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<p>Anyone else have ideas how HTL could be improved?</p><hr></blockquote>Hmmm how about having it proc whenever anyone in the group gets hit or something like that. Also a slight defense buff would be nice.

[Crim001]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><p>You are not making me squirm, I have had this argument with better people than you and who post much more intelligently than you as well. Wabit makes a much better argument for HTL than you could possibly ever make. You base your argument off XP grps, which I clearly stated that Amends was better. Its ok, man. It really is...i'll keep posting my "pissant" posts as long as it takes.</p><p>We can agree to disagree if you wish. I know from personal experience that DPS creates more aggro than healer skills. You can ask the question in the Paly forums. I betcha they will agree with me.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Whoa, whoa, whoa. Major flame bait. If you aren't here to help and just to argue and incite, leave this post alone and move onto somewhere else. We don't need full blown arguments over the intelligence of another person. So please, keep this clean and civil, both of you, and either stop flaming each other or just back off the post....</p><p>Message Edited by Crim001 on <span class="date_text">02-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:47 PM</span></p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>It's pretty clear that DPS = Heals pertaining to hate.  It's been easily tested before.  Do it yourself, you can see it.  Same goes for taunts vs heals.</p><p>Uziel has a fine history of supporting other classes in their endeavors to get fixed or boosted.  We need him, and others like him, from every other class in the game.  If Guardians get boosted to the point where we can contribute as more than just a MT, then the entire community benefits.</p><p>If we can DPS, then the MT spot is that much more open for other classes.  We done HAVE to tank, we have DPS. </p><p>If we can perform XYZ job because of our utility that SOE has granted us out of the Dev brainstorm of the Century, the we done NEED to be the tank, we have another job.</p><p>I other words, dont [Removed for Content] off the intellegent, yet possibly mis-informed posters here.  Uziel can be a friend, or an enemy, of the Guardian class.</p>

[Vorlak]

<div></div><p>I wonder if devs even visit this board anymore...</p><p>Very valid points and hard work by wabit be nice to see something from devs...</p>

[Salgo]

<div></div><div><font size="2"></font><hr><font size="2">I wonder if devs even visit this board anymore...</font></div><p><font size="2">Very valid points and hard work by wabit be nice to see something from devs...</font><font size="2"></font></p><hr><p>The answer is yes. We've been told a couple of times in the last 5 months that "They are looking into it". What more do you want? :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>I think most of us are planning on waiting for KoS to see what's in store. However, the fact that they are planning to allow neutral classes to betray (ie Guard to Zerker) kind of speaks volumes IMHO.</p><p>This is my opinion only, but it's like they've acknowledged the fact that (non-raid) Guards are [Removed for Content]'d and that they have painted themselves into a corner (meaning if they give us more DPS to help the non-raiders out...it may imbalance the Raiding end of things and round and round we go). You would think that giving us the DPS in offensive stance would take care of that but there must be something I am overlooking. Dunno...just a theory. At least they are possibly going to allow us to switch to Zerkers by doing the Betrayal quest...I will give them that much. That way depending on your playing style you can choose what will fit best, Zerker or Guard instead of having to re-roll which some of us do not have the time to do.</p>

[Noah]

<div></div><p>At some point tweaks have to stop and people just have to deal.  Honestly, imo -  it is getting pretty close to that now. </p><p>Of course AAs are coming and I am sure some of the same people will forge a few crusades on those too. </p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Noah wrote:<div></div><p>At some point tweaks have to stop and people just have to deal. </p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Problem is, if SOE decides they're done tweaking, and the Guardian community doesn't agree, then Guardians can "deal," reroll, betray, or leave the game.  Honestly, most of the stuff that's been agreed upon in this board wouldn't overpower the Guaridan class.  Definatly no more so that the Bruisers or Monks are right now. </p><p>So why not make the changes?  Or at least tell us to leave the game 'cuz we're not gonna get what we want.</p>

[Salgo]

<div></div><font size="2"></font><hr>At some point tweaks have to stop and people just have to deal.  Honestly, imo -  it is getting pretty close to that now. <p><font size="2">Of course AAs are coming and I am sure some of the same people will forge a few crusades on those too.  </font></p><hr><p>Noah, with all due respect, you are probably in the upper echelon of Raid Tanks and so you are happy with the class the way it is. Guardians are fine in that role and you won't find many that will argue with that. Even in XP groups with guildees, you probably won't notice any issues because as a Raid tank you are all decked out in fabled gear, so its probably cake to you and your group (who are also maxed out for Raiding). That's great! At least some are really enjoying their Guardians and having fun. </p><p>It's the rest of us that don't raid that have an issue. I understand from your perspective we should just quit whining and reroll or something. And I'm sure you could level an alt pretty quickly if you wanted to but some of us cannnot due to the limited free time that we have. As for AA's it depends on how they roll them out. If they are required to enjoy the game's non-raid content, then yes I would expect some complaining. But it won't be me. If that's the direction that SOE decides to go then thats cool but I just don't have the time to grind the AA's and it will cease to be the game for me. It doesn't sound like that's their view of AAs at this point but you never know.</p>

[Noah]

<div></div><div>Im not sure what the issue is right now.  Is it a few CAs that get resisted?  Is it miti values vs other tanks?  CA damage over all?  Dps?</div><div> </div><div>I understand you think my perspective is skewed but when DoF hit, everyone was on even playing ground with Cobalt armor.   Sure I was somewhat jealous of guild bruisers and zerks tanking in groups doing x2 the dps I was.  Those numbers are easy to see and calculate.  How can you quantify the life saving ability guardians have?  When that 3 or 4th add came, you stood strong and finished them all.  Where as with a bruiser or different tank, the group would have wiped.   I promise you that the guardian brings "safety" to a group if nothing else.</div><div> </div><div>I guess I play the GAME not the Class.  I am given a set of tools and will use them the best I can knowing that every little bit counts.  </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>PS: When did intercepts stop taking mitigation checks?</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Noah on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:31 AM</span></p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Noah wrote:<div></div><div>Im not sure what the issue is right now.  Is it a few CAs that get resisted?  Is it miti values vs other tanks?  CA damage over all?  Dps?</div><div> </div><div>I understand you think my perspective is skewed but when DoF hit, everyone was on even playing ground with Cobalt armor.   Sure I was somewhat jealous of guild bruisers and zerks tanking in groups doing x2 the dps I was.  Those numbers are easy to see and calculate.  How can you quantify the life saving ability guardians have?  When that 3 or 4th add came, you stood strong and finished them all.  Where as with a bruiser or different tank, the group would have wiped.   I promise you that the guardian brings "safety" to a group if nothing else.</div><div> </div><div>I guess I play the GAME not the Class.  I am given a set of tools and will use them the best I can knowing that every little bit counts.  </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>PS: When did intercepts stop taking mitigation checks?</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Noah on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:31 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I think for the majority of us who arent raid MT's the main issues are soloability (DPS) and utility when not MT .. we'd like a reason to be in a grop when not MT.  If I could put my finger on a 3rd issue it would be the huge amount of power needed to keep agro.  Those are the issues that the non fabled, non raid MT faces.  Especially in levels < 60.</span></div>

[Noah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Noah wrote:<div></div><div>Im not sure what the issue is right now.  Is it a few CAs that get resisted?  Is it miti values vs other tanks?  CA damage over all?  Dps?</div><div> </div><div>I understand you think my perspective is skewed but when DoF hit, everyone was on even playing ground with Cobalt armor.   Sure I was somewhat jealous of guild bruisers and zerks tanking in groups doing x2 the dps I was.  Those numbers are easy to see and calculate.  How can you quantify the life saving ability guardians have?  When that 3 or 4th add came, you stood strong and finished them all.  Where as with a bruiser or different tank, the group would have wiped.   I promise you that the guardian brings "safety" to a group if nothing else.</div><div> </div><div>I guess I play the GAME not the Class.  I am given a set of tools and will use them the best I can knowing that every little bit counts.  </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>PS: When did intercepts stop taking mitigation checks?</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Noah on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:31 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I think for the majority of us who arent raid MT's the main issues are soloability (DPS) and utility when not MT .. we'd like a reason to be in a grop when not MT.  If I could put my finger on a 3rd issue it would be the huge amount of power needed to keep agro.  Those are the issues that the non fabled, non raid MT faces.  Especially in levels < 60.</span></div><p></p><hr><p> </p></blockquote><p>I assume you are talking about MTing in a group and not in a raid.  In a raid there are plenty of situations where a 2nd tank is needed and a key part to keeping a controlled raid environment.</p><p>Group situations vary a lot.  Can you take a DPS role as a "non MT", probably not as well.  You do bring stability incase of "adds" or if the tank falls.  Is it an optimal group, no.  This day and age it is about DPS and killing the mob as soon as possible.  Most of the time there is no need for 2 healers so why should there be a need for 2 tanks?  DPS is king and always will be since the faster the mobs die, the less healing is needed, and the most exp is gain.  So I am still unclear what is wanted here to make guardians feel special or needed in that role.</p><p>Soloing.  In any game out there the "beefy tank" never could solo well.  WoW, EQ1, AC, DAoC, even CoH (cept BURN tanks !!wuwu) the class that can "take a lickin and keep on tickin" never could solo that well.  Once put into a challenging group environment, those classes excel past others (player skill as a factor).  </p><p>I see guards similar to the way I see templars.  Both are strong in groups but poor as individuals.  When pitted against a difficult opponent/situation, templars are very good for healing.  Same for guardians in the tanking capacity. </p><p>Power consumption has always been rough on the guardian.  Sometimes it is due to over zealous dps forcing you to "spam CAs" instead of utilitizing your innate agro (HTL line).  Let the dps die a few times and I promise you that after a while, you wont have to much of a power issue.  In turn the group has less down time waiting on you to "regen back".  Honestly, downtime is limited due to drinks and out of combat regen.  Secondly, mobs drain power.  A lot.  Having a mage in the group can help with that.  Once again, that is something you cant control and it is not your CAs, its the mob type your killing.</p><p>People can pull comparisons, DPS lists, profile info, stats, etc etc.  In the end it is one thing - Player Choice.  This is not just in regards to class selection but also how they play that class.  There are good tanks and no-so good tanks.  You control that imo.</p>

[Salgo]

<div></div><div><font size="2"></font><hr></div><div><font size="2">Noah Wrote: </font></div><div><font size="2">...</font><font size="2">Group situations vary a lot.  Can you take a DPS role as a "non MT", probably not as well.  You do bring stability incase of "adds" or if the tank falls.  Is it an optimal group, no. <font color="#ff0000"> <strong>This day and age it is about DPS and killing the mob as soon as possible.</strong></font>  Most of the time there is no need for 2 healers so why should there be a need for 2 tanks?  <font color="#ff0000"><strong>DPS is king and always will be since the faster the mobs die, the less healing is needed, and the most exp is gain.  So I am still unclear what is wanted here to make guardians feel special or needed in that role.</strong></font></font></div><p><font size="2">Soloing.  In any game out there the "beefy tank" never could solo well.  WoW, EQ1, AC, DAoC, even CoH (cept BURN tanks !!wuwu) the class that can "take a lickin and keep on tickin" never could solo that well.  <strong><font color="#ff0000">Once put into a challenging group environment, those classes excel past others (player skill as a factor).</font></strong>  </font></p><p><font size="2">...</font><font size="2">Power consumption has always been rough on the guardian.  Sometimes it is due to over zealous dps forcing you to "spam CAs" instead of <font color="#ff0000"><strong>utilitizing your innate agro (HTL line</strong></font>).  Let the dps die a few times and I promise you that after a while, you wont have to much of a power issue.  In turn the group has less down time waiting on you to "regen back".  Honestly, downtime is limited due to drinks and out of combat regen....</font><font size="2"></font></p><p><font size="2"></font></p><hr><p>Good comments Noah and I would like to further elaborate on some of them (again from a non-raiding perspective).</p><p>Grouping as MT (Non-raid):</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p>What you say about killing the mob as soon as possible is <u>dead on</u>. Due to our lower DPS, Guadians when MT and tanking white and lower cons (possibly yellow and lower)  aren't as efficient as other fighters. Plus we are spending our power on taunts (since HTL won't proc as much with the lower cons) which only adds to our dilemma. On orange cons (and this is debatable) I think me might have an edge because the mob pretty much disregards you avoidance and its all about mitigation. Now HTL is proccing, this great, but because of the resist rate on orange cons a lot are getting resisted my own taunts included and sure enough one will tend to peel more often than I would like. I will admit, I just got reinforcement so that helps now but you still gotta hit those orange cons and at this point I am in Def stance so I am taking a reduction on my hit%. End result, I lose aggro on multi-mob encounter more often than I would like and therefore orange cons aren't usually the most efficient for grinding XP (especially in a pick-up group where everyone is feeling each other out).</p></blockquote><p>Grouping when Not MT (Non-raid)</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p>When not MT (again in XP group situations): First off this happens a lot more often since LU13. Why? Because before if a Guard was a level maybe two lower, he would still get the MT spot because +4 Defense = tanking one level higher. Since this is no longer the case we have to let others tank (and I'm fine with that). It makes sense...its orange to me but yellow to the other fighter...let him tank. But our DPS is pitiful compared with other sub-classes even in offensive stance. Maybe we should get a haste or something in our Off. Stance (as was suggested by Gungo I believe). Or maybe we just need better or more AoE's (which would also help with our aggro control...this IMO is why Zerkers are the best at holding down aggro in multi-mob encounters and also fits with the safer tank theory. Yes XP is slightly slower but you are less likey to pull aggro from us type of thing). This is why you see a lot of us asking for DPS. The playing field has been leveled as far as tanking is concerned (gap has been drastically reduced) and therefore SOE should reduce the gap in the other areas (DPS and Utility). I would even let Utility slide if we got the DPS boost because as you stated, we would be giving something up for being the "safer tank" but this is assuming we got an AoE boost to help us hold multi-mob aggro better. Otherwise I say Zerker is the safer tank as he can take the adds, hold the aggro, and help mow them down.</p></blockquote><p>Soloing:</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p>Also if our DPS is increased this will automatically help our soloing ability, not by leaps and bounds because we don't have some of the special skills that others have (mez, fear, heals, FD, etc...)  but it would help.</p></blockquote><p> </p><p></p>

[Shizzirri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Noah wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Noah wrote:<div></div><div>Im not sure what the issue is right now.  Is it a few CAs that get resisted?  Is it miti values vs other tanks?  CA damage over all?  Dps?</div><div> </div><div>I understand you think my perspective is skewed but when DoF hit, everyone was on even playing ground with Cobalt armor.   Sure I was somewhat jealous of guild bruisers and zerks tanking in groups doing x2 the dps I was.  Those numbers are easy to see and calculate.  How can you quantify the life saving ability guardians have?  When that 3 or 4th add came, you stood strong and finished them all.  Where as with a bruiser or different tank, the group would have wiped.   I promise you that the guardian brings "safety" to a group if nothing else.</div><div> </div><div>I guess I play the GAME not the Class.  I am given a set of tools and will use them the best I can knowing that every little bit counts.  </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>PS: When did intercepts stop taking mitigation checks?</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Noah on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:31 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I think for the majority of us who arent raid MT's the main issues are soloability (DPS) and utility when not MT .. we'd like a reason to be in a grop when not MT.  If I could put my finger on a 3rd issue it would be the huge amount of power needed to keep agro.  Those are the issues that the non fabled, non raid MT faces.  Especially in levels < 60.</span></div><p></p><hr><p> </p></blockquote><p>I assume you are talking about MTing in a group and not in a raid.  In a raid there are plenty of situations where a 2nd tank is needed and a key part to keeping a controlled raid environment.</p><p>Group situations vary a lot.  Can you take a DPS role as a "non MT", probably not as well.  You do bring stability incase of "adds" or if the tank falls.  Is it an optimal group, no.  This day and age it is about DPS and killing the mob as soon as possible.  Most of the time there is no need for 2 healers so why should there be a need for 2 tanks?  DPS is king and always will be since the faster the mobs die, the less healing is needed, and the most exp is gain.  So I am still unclear what is wanted here to make guardians feel special or needed in that role.</p><p>Soloing.  In any game out there the "beefy tank" never could solo well.  WoW, EQ1, AC, DAoC, even CoH (cept BURN tanks !!wuwu) the class that can "take a lickin and keep on tickin" never could solo that well.  Once put into a challenging group environment, those classes excel past others (player skill as a factor).  </p><p>I see guards similar to the way I see templars.  Both are strong in groups but poor as individuals.  When pitted against a difficult opponent/situation, templars are very good for healing.  Same for guardians in the tanking capacity. </p><p>Power consumption has always been rough on the guardian.  Sometimes it is due to over zealous dps forcing you to "spam CAs" instead of utilitizing your innate agro (HTL line).  Let the dps die a few times and I promise you that after a while, you wont have to much of a power issue.  In turn the group has less down time waiting on you to "regen back".  Honestly, downtime is limited due to drinks and out of combat regen.  Secondly, mobs drain power.  A lot.  Having a mage in the group can help with that.  Once again, that is something you cant control and it is not your CAs, its the mob type your killing.</p><p>People can pull comparisons, DPS lists, profile info, stats, etc etc.  In the end it is one thing - Player Choice.  This is not just in regards to class selection but also how they play that class.  There are good tanks and no-so good tanks.  You control that imo.</p><hr></blockquote><p>And to add if your in a group tanking with a tower shield and defensive stance your probably going to not be able to hold aggro.  You don't need a shield and def stance in an exp group unless your taking on some big nasty named mob (cazel or keeper of silence comes to mind).  Otherwise I"m usually using a two hander in offensive stance (which leads to another problem our crappy offensive stance) plus HTL will proc more if you ditch your shield and use a two hander or d.w.   you should be able to do this with a set of cobalt armor / legendary weapon no prob if you still get owned its probably your healer.</p><p>The problem with a guardian is there structured around raids, there a defensive based tank with low dps and pretty much the same taunts as zerkers.   Guardians, however, are much more power efficient than the other tanks, I see zerkers use power twice as fast as guardians.  Guardians are built for long, drawn out fights, not debuff and max dps fights and that's why no one wants them in groups, there's only so much player skill can do for holding aggro/dps and I'll still say 90% of the time guardians lose aggro its not their fault.</p>

[mastersard]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Shizzirri wrote:</p><p>The problem with a guardian is there structured around raids, there a defensive based tank with low dps and pretty much the same taunts as zerkers.   Guardians, however, are much more power efficient than the other tanks, I see zerkers use power twice as fast as guardians.  Guardians are built for long, drawn out fights, not debuff and max dps fights and that's why no one wants them in groups, there's only so much player skill can do for holding aggro/dps and I'll still say 90% of the time guardians lose aggro its not their fault.</p><hr></blockquote><div>I agree here.  I'd take it even a step further.  ALL FIGHTERS HAVE BEEN BALANCED AT THE RAID LEVEL.  At least, that was SOEs intention.  They totally ignored the Group game, the Solo game, the Quest game, and focused on the Raid game.  Guardians are the best raiders so it's ok if we suck at everything else.  HTL works great on long, drawn out fights (raids) so it's ok if it sucks in every other PvE encounter.</div><div> </div><div>Problem is, most of us dont Raid.  Some of us are going to NOT be the MT sometimes.  Some of us like to complete a couple quests, every once in a while.  What then?</div><div> </div><div>HTL is just a part of the problem.  Yes, it needs to be looked at and fixed, but lots of other things do to.</div>

[Noah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastersardis wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Shizzirri wrote:</p><p>The problem with a guardian is there structured around raids, there a defensive based tank with low dps and pretty much the same taunts as zerkers.   Guardians, however, are much more power efficient than the other tanks, I see zerkers use power twice as fast as guardians.  Guardians are built for long, drawn out fights, not debuff and max dps fights and that's why no one wants them in groups, there's only so much player skill can do for holding aggro/dps and I'll still say 90% of the time guardians lose aggro its not their fault.</p><hr></blockquote><div>I agree here.  I'd take it even a step further.  ALL FIGHTERS HAVE BEEN BALANCED AT THE RAID LEVEL.  At least, that was SOEs intention.  They totally ignored the Group game, the Solo game, the Quest game, and focused on the Raid game.  Guardians are the best raiders so it's ok if we suck at everything else.  HTL works great on long, drawn out fights (raids) so it's ok if it sucks in every other PvE encounter.</div><div> </div><div>Problem is, most of us dont Raid.  Some of us are going to NOT be the MT sometimes.  Some of us like to complete a couple quests, every once in a while.  What then?</div><div> </div><div>HTL is just a part of the problem.  Yes, it needs to be looked at and fixed, but lots of other things do to.</div><hr></blockquote><p>lol</p><p>Their goal was to allow all FIGHTERS to tank in group situation and they can.  I beg to differ at the raid lvl sir.  Not to "imbalance" things but when was the last time we saw a brawler as the MT for an orange con Raid mob?</p><p>Guardians perform great in group/raid settings but poorly in solo settings.   You can see all the Fighter types have trade offs and some are better at some things than others.</p>

[Terron]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Noah wrote:<div></div><p>Guardians perform great in group/raid settings but poorly in solo settings.   You can see all the Fighter types have trade offs and some are better at some things than others.</p><hr></blockquote>What are guardians better at outside raids? Particularly below 50th level.Guardians aren't great in groups anyway, adequate when the tank, but poorly when not.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by pjackson on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:06 AM</span></p>

[Shizzirri]

<div>You pretty much summed it up, if there not tanking there pretty useless, all other fighter classes are fully capable of matching a guardian in terms of tanking exp groups, if you want a scout to tank your buffs might be able to make that possible.</div><div> </div><div>On a side note they can harvest pretty good and carry more bank boxes which equals more bag space for raws (offensive stance ftw)</div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Noah wrote:<p>Their goal was to allow all FIGHTERS to tank in group situation and they can.  I beg to differ at the raid lvl sir.  Not to "imbalance" things but when was the last time we saw a brawler as the MT for an orange con Raid mob?</p><hr></blockquote><p>If you think SOE was trying to ballance at the group level, you are either a fanboi or have blinders on.  SOE rolled out LU13 for the raid game, not for groups.  Grouping wasn't the issue, raiding was.  Raid content was trivialised by a bug that we Guards could reproduce easily, so we got nerfed.  Hard.  Every other tank got beefed up, we lost a lot.</p><p>Were they successful?  No, they un-balanced the group game, and brawlers still cant tank raids well.</p>