Cheer up!

[Colossaltitan]

<div><strong><font color="#ffcc00">*** Desert of Flames ***</font></strong>- Siyamak's Guard is now correctly classified as a tower shield.- The Tarantula Carapace and Bracers of the Savant now have appropriate mitigation values.From the update notes.  Its about time!</div>

[TunaBoo]

I think the bp will still be a lot worse then the + mita one from court. Only seen 1 drop on 30 terror kills, seems kinda rare for us.<div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

<div>Probably won't be as good as the one from Court, your right.But atleast its a positive change.</div>

[Colossaltitan]

<div></div>476 Mitigation on it.

[Sirlutt]

doesnt help the large percentage of us who dont raid and havent alot of chance of getting either of those though.<div></div>

[TunaBoo]

If you don't raid you don't deserve uber loot.<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:If you don't raid you don't deserve uber loot.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Disagree a little.this is everquest, not ever raiding... I dont want uber fabled, but I still want to be able to obtain some decent loot, otherwise whats the point of playing ?  We casual gamers might aswell go play something else and Sony can maintain all the servers and infrastructure to allow 10,000 hard core raiders to play.  Casual gamers are what allow you to raid, no one is going to market a game, pay developers and pay for infrastructure so that a handful (comparatively) of people can raid 7 days a week.  You guys need casual gamers, or there would be no game to raid.i was referring to the fact that for prolly 80% of guardians, fixing those items does nothing because we dont have them.  I do however think its great they are fixed.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Sirlutt on <span class="date_text">01-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:09 PM</span></p>

[TunaBoo]

So just because the name is everQUEST, everything in it must revolve around quests. Right? Right? That is a very tired argument, and any argument made about the name of the game should dictate how risk vs reward is played out is very silly.Quests about delievering meat packets and killing gray mobs is low risk, so it should be low rewards. Many raids and hard and high risk, so they should have high rewards.Get it?<div></div>

[mastersard]

<div></div><p>Tuna,</p><p>What he's saying is that if you build a game around hadrcore raiders, then you eliminate a large portion of your customer base.  MMOs need a very broad and diverse customer base to survive in what is becoming a very competitive game market.  They try and draw from several different genra of games:  RPG, Quest, Dungeon crawler, group XPing, crafting, exploration, etc.  Most of us got into MMOs because of the character progression, to build up an alter-ego, an online self.  If raiding is how a player builds that persona, then so be it.  However, hardcore raiders make up a very small portion of the player base.  I'd estimate 10-15%, and i'd bet that's very inflated. </p><p>What i'm trying to say is, this game <em>depends</em> on casual, 1-2 night-a-week gamers, but it can easily function without the hardcore market segment.  That is not to say that SOE shouldn't listen to raiders.  They should.  But ony about 10-15% of their resourses should be dedicated to that part of the game.  Right now, it's far more than that.  Some will point out the removal of the archtype system, new starter islands and quests, etc, as SOE focusing on the early levels of the game.  However, these changes are actually SOEs way of discarding the need to balance avoidance tanks with mitigation tanks <em>at the end game level.</em></p><p>For instance, Guardians were nerfed, and LU13 implemented, based on the "end game" data of guards in a raid MT situation, and other fighter class' inability to achieve the same buff-stacking exploit/advantage as a warrior, or specifically Guardian, could.</p><p>A hardcore gamer has no real problem re-rolling a new class if his main is nerfed into un-usefullness.  Guild will actually pressure players to pick a more fitting class, and a hardcore gamer can grind thru 60 levels in a few short weeks, and again begin raiding 6-7 nights a week.  Sadly for SOE, hardcore gamers are the minority. </p><p>WoWs position towards casual gamers is its strength.  And, while i've enjoyed my time in DDO beta, it too is a casual gamers game.  It is all, as far as i can see, instance based single group content.  While i havent begun beta testing on Vanguard yet, i've read reviews that it will be a raiders game.  Hardcore all the way.  EQ2s middle-of-the-road approach to melding hardcore and casual gameplay is why they have so many problems, and so many unhappy subscribers.</p><p> </p>

[Ladicav]

<div></div><div>If I was a hardcore 8 hour a night raider, EQ2 would be <em>the most frustrating game</em>. First of all, hardcore raid content isn't emphasised. A lot of the tactics are the same and the actual content to do is quite low. Add to that almost everything past a certain point has a lockout timer associated with it. Argh.</div><div> </div><div>It is bleeding obvious EQ2 bases a lot of it's game play around its quests.</div><div> </div><div>Maybe KoS will add more raid content, actually it will be forced to. There is going to have to be content to even just allow levelling from 60 to 70 and then content to allow 70's to do stuff.</div><div> </div><div>But as a hardcore raiders game, well, EQ1 still wins handsdown compared to EQ2. Vanguard I agree seems to be leaning in the direction for hardcore gamers also.</div><div> </div><div>I agree in that if I don't raid, I shouldn't get the top end loot. But EQ2 isn't a game that I feel compelled to raid in anyway. *shrug*</div><div> </div><div>Just looks like it's ill catered for.</div><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class="date_text">01-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:38 PM</span></p>

[Sirlutt]

Tuna, I like you raid guys, i really do. I wish i could raid 7 nights a week and be decked out in ubah stuffs, but I have alot of other RL stuff goin on and it doesnt happen.  What I meant is that the game shouldnt be just about casual, or just ab out raiders.  They should fix the bugs for both groups of players, same with crafters.  Need all 3 groups for this to work.My original point was fixing items like this does nothing for the Guardian class as a whole.  It helps a handful of people.  I am glad it was fixed, but the impression I got is we should all rejoice because guardians are getting a fix.  Guardians didnt get anything, a few raiders got a fix.<div></div>

[Sir_Halbarad]

I think what Tuna meant is that you don't NEED Raid Loot if you don't raid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />With that phrasing I agree... If you play your casual game, soloing, one-grouping, maybe lower tier pickup raiding - then legendary and 1-grp fabled loot is all you ever need to be perfectly equipped for the foes you're facing...But if you face an orange con Raid Boss able to one shot you if things go worse than bad... then you need the best equipment there is.On another issue... I truely hope they get the fabled progression right for KoS. Equipping a Guild in DoF Raids to be able to start KoS Raiding should be the norm... not endless KoS harvesting for crafted rares.<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

Agree on all points.  Thats why i like the lower level loot stuff they have done.  The lgendary stuff and the fabled for T3/T4 and now T5 (wit CT) is great for the casual people.  Its not the stuff you get from the T5 Raid areas, and certainyl nothing like you get from the T6 stuff.  Your exactly right, as a casual group tank i dont need that stuff.  Be nice to have, hehe, but not a must have. in my opinion nothing legendary should EVER be better than anything Fabled.  Legendary should be where us casual gamers stop, the Fabled stuff from epic areas should live up to that name.The issue that I see arrising alot if pression.   You need A loot to do B raids to get B loot to do C raids to get C loot to do D raids.. etc etc etc.  With alot of the recent ballancing of raids, its very tough to get through the first couple of areas, and there is next to NO x2 raiding that is worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<div></div>

[Timzil]

<div></div><p>End game loot should be available to all types of players who are in their end game. Otherwise, as has been pointed out, there is no reason to play the game. Me, having no interest in being a raid drone, just level to the current cap and park till the next expansion. I happen to keep my subscription paid up in the interim, but there's no real reason to do that. Raiding should just be another way of getting end game loot. Perhaps a quicker way. Perhaps slightly better loot than can be obtained via long quests or camps. Most certainly it shouldn't be the only way though, and raiders shouldn't be the only players that have reason to log in.</p><p>Spudge, 60 Gardener</p>

[Sir_Halbarad]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timzilla wrote:<div></div><p>End game loot should be available to all types of players who are in their end game. Otherwise, as has been pointed out, there is no reason to play the game. Me, having no interest in being a raid drone, just level to the current cap and park till the next expansion. I happen to keep my subscription paid up in the interim, but there's no real reason to do that. Raiding should just be another way of getting end game loot. Perhaps a quicker way. Perhaps slightly better loot than can be obtained via long quests or camps. Most certainly it shouldn't be the only way though, and raiders shouldn't be the only players that have reason to log in.</p><p>Spudge, 60 Gardener</p><hr></blockquote>In my opinion, there is alot of very nice loot that can be obtained from non-raids. Stuff you would consider end-game.For Guardians, the following come to mind:Immovable BarbuteCrimson Rock TargeRing of Fate (+ the Legendary Loot along the way)Spaulders of Forgotten GloryCold-Forged BarbuteGussets of DeflectionDrops from the Courts InstancesOther Drops from 1 group instances (Scornfeather Roost, Ancient's Table, Cazel's Mesa, Poet's Palace, heck, maybe even Hidden Cache)I think all that is of the quality you ask for. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[RafaelSmith]

I dont raid.  I agree sorta with both points.  My problem is that gear gotten from clickin on rocks should NOT be the best available to anyone.  There needs to be more 1 groupable, questable loot that is as good or better than rare crafted but not in the league of fabled.  Give me and my group of non-raiding friends something fun and challenging to go after that is rewarding.  Im not asking for the same rewards those that raid get but geez give me something better than I can get from harvesting rocks.<div></div>

[Timzil]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>RafaelSmith wrote:I dont raid.  I agree sorta with both points.  My problem is that gear gotten from clickin on rocks should NOT be the best available to anyone.  There needs to be more 1 groupable, questable loot that is as good or better than rare crafted but not in the league of fabled.  Give me and my group of non-raiding friends something fun and challenging to go after that is rewarding.  Im not asking for the same rewards those that raid get but geez give me something better than I can get from harvesting rocks.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I think the biggest boost that SOE could give the game is to not include any gear recipes in the expansion. After that, drop all the gear labels that split the community. Don't need stuff labeled legendary, fabled, moms and etc. Just let the [Removed for Content] item stats speak for themselves. 

[blueduckie]

<div>I dont undersand why people say rare crafted is the best when it isnt. The single group instance stuff is much better. There are alot of named treasured that are just as good.</div><div> </div><div>What they did was give non raiders instances to farm. Could they use a little tweaking? That could be argued i think more slots should be covered but i think you might see that itemzation pans out better with KoS.</div><div> </div><div>For exmample from what all has been said i believe the immoavble barbute will be better than t7 legendary crafted helm. So with the new instances from KoS if they make slots comparable to adding it on to DoF this will make it easier for non raiders to gear up and have fabled and be well geared. Crafted armor has become to strong IMO. With how they have claimed items will be done in KoS I really believe this wil fix this problem and make killing mobs for items better than harvesting non stop. I just wonder how big of a upgrade t7 legendary wil be in compared to t6. I also wonder how t7 treasured loots will be if they will be basically same mit as cobalt but with better stats etc. All to be seen but from what i have concluded i think the non raiders will have more fun in KoS gearing up wise if they take advantage of it. I do think the instances from DoF was there way of starting this trend for future aspects.</div>

[Terron]

You don't get any gear from harvesting.It has to be crafted, and if crafted rare stuff was not better than normal drops there would be little point in crafting.It may be that you have no interest in that side of the game, but I quite like it.<div></div>

[Pry]

<div></div><p>You shouldn't have to raid to get top of the line gear, that's complete nonsense.  Additionally, I disagree with the notion also that you don't need it because you don't raid.  Both arguments are mentally challenged. </p><p>Proof?  World of Warcraft, where the regular player with a real job and real responsibilities can get <strong>epic</strong> loot with a good 5 man group.  Where a solo player has a chance to find <strong>epic</strong> loot as a part of normal adventuring.  5 million subscribers.  Enough said. </p><p>Why not start trying to think outside of the box sometimes, shall we? </p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<div></div><p>You shouldn't have to raid to get top of the line gear, that's complete nonsense.  Additionally, I disagree with the notion also that you don't need it because you don't raid.  Both arguments are mentally challenged. </p><p>Proof?  World of Warcraft, where the regular player with a real job and real responsibilities can get <strong>epic</strong> loot with a good 5 man group.  Where a solo player has a chance to find <strong>epic</strong> loot as a part of normal adventuring.  5 million subscribers.  Enough said. </p><p>Why not start trying to think outside of the box sometimes, shall we? </p><hr></blockquote>I pretty much agree with you there.  I'm not in a raiding guild, I dont have time anymore now that I have a son, butI'd still like to be able to work towards some really cool loot.  Example of something done the right way, the Ring of Fate, we need more things like that, and more "good" drops for non raiders.  One you hit 60, and arent raiding whats their to do ?.. not alot but equip your toon.</span></div>

[Timzil]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>blueduckie wrote:<div>I dont undersand why people say rare crafted is the best when it isnt. The single group instance stuff is much better. There are alot of named treasured that are just as good.</div><div> </div><div>What they did was give non raiders instances to farm. Could they use a little tweaking? That could be argued i think more slots should be covered but i think you might see that itemzation pans out better with KoS.</div><hr></blockquote>I've never seen anything better than crafted legendary for plate mitigation classes. Did most of the DoF quests, including Peacocks to the point of needing the godking kill. Got nothing useable from any of that. Leveled 50 to 60 in DoF zones and never found anything even remotely useful. Retired long before farming the group instances became fashionable. Maybe like you say, there's a couple of good drops to be had there. I need at least 14 good drops though.  Something is broken when you have to spend a couple weeks chipping rocks for the best gear available to you, and then you have no upgrades to look forward to for the next 10 levels. On top of that you're playing a guardian. Karma I guess. My non-plate alts on the other hand, find plenty of useful stuff.

[Wasuna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>blueduckie wrote:<div>I dont undersand why people say rare crafted is the best when it isnt. The single group instance stuff is much better. There are alot of named treasured that are just as good.</div><div> </div><div>What they did was give non raiders instances to farm. Could they use a little tweaking? That could be argued i think more slots should be covered but i think you might see that itemzation pans out better with KoS.</div><div> </div><div>For exmample from what all has been said i believe the immoavble barbute will be better than t7 legendary crafted helm. So with the new instances from KoS if they make slots comparable to adding it on to DoF this will make it easier for non raiders to gear up and have fabled and be well geared. Crafted armor has become to strong IMO. With how they have claimed items will be done in KoS I really believe this wil fix this problem and make killing mobs for items better than harvesting non stop. I just wonder how big of a upgrade t7 legendary wil be in compared to t6. I also wonder how t7 treasured loots will be if they will be basically same mit as cobalt but with better stats etc. All to be seen but from what i have concluded i think the non raiders will have more fun in KoS gearing up wise if they take advantage of it. I do think the instances from DoF was there way of starting this trend for future aspects.</div><hr></blockquote><p>I do poets palace atleast 5 times a week and have for the last month and a half. I have the hat and the shiled from there. I have NEVER seen  a guardian master drop and I have never seen the gloves drop.</p><p>I have done Cazels a few times and won. It takes a special group for that guy even when you know the tricks and it's hard to get that. I have the fabled 1 hander from there and have never see the bracer.</p><p>I have no other choice but the rare crafted. Now they say that Cobalt stuff is to good and the rare crafted stuff for T7 will be weaker in comparison. Good news. I get to spend 100 hours harvesting and 100 platnium (That I don't have btw) getting rares for my armor, weapons and adept 3's just so I can be worse at at 70 than I am now at 60 comparably.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>pjackson wrote:You don't get any gear from harvesting.It has to be crafted, and if crafted rare stuff was not better than normal drops there would be little point in crafting.It may be that you have no interest in that side of the game, but I quite like it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Correct I dont have an interest in the crafting side of the game....but for my gamestyle...i.e call it casual, non-raider whatever EQ2 is in reality forcing me to take part in that side of the game simply because rare crafted is really "baseline" and average gear.  I dont care what someone might think of me since I dont raid but i surely deserve something from the game that doesnt force me to take part in an entire aspect of it that I absolutely detest.  I think thats all some of us are asking for...challenging, useful loot that if I choose to set goals for is available and enough off to continue to equip my toon or upgrade him If i have gotten a few rare crafted.  I think the mere fact that 90% of the time when I zone into a populated zone and see ANY plate class...more often than not we are exact clones of eachother...i,e we are all in cobalt...shows that the game is seriously lacking decent loot for ALOT of its player base to go after.   Crafters have every right to enjoy that aspect of the game but it should not be forced on me which I realize some would argue is not but in reality if I wanna function as a decent plate tank is.</span><div></div>

[Terron]

I am also a fairly casual non-raiding player.I agree there ia a problem, but was pointing out that your proposed solution would have severe consequences for many crafters.If you can get better stuff by normal adventuring than by spending your time working your way up in level as a crafter, why bother crafting, and why bother buying stuff from crafters?Rare crafted needs to be better than rare/quested drops, and normal crafted needs to be better than normal drops.The problem is than rare crafted is regarded as the entry level standard, and ordinary crafted is considered not good enough, so many players of plate classes consider it is worth the effort/cost of getting it.It should be possible to be a decent plate fighter in ordinary crafted armour, with rare crafted stuff giving a nice bonus but not being essential.The obvious solution is to reduce the difference between the different armour types until it is no longer considered worth while to dedicate days to searching for rares each tier, except possibly for end game raider types.If it were done by raising the mitigation of the lesser armours there shouldn't be many complaints and I would be happy, since all my armour is like that.<div></div>

[Salgo]

<div>I too would like something to shoot for...other than just harvesting for rares tier after tier. Before the update, I could live with average gear and a couple of rares and tank just fine for XP groups etc... I'm not saying that you should be able to get a full suit of gear that's better that rare crafted but a couple of pieces here and there would be nice, and from some other posts I've read, I think it's out there.</div><div> </div><div>As for the Raid Fabled items...I'm fine with not having that stuff so long as it doesn't become the new standard for average group tanking. Don't get me wrong, the stuff would be great to have but it's needed for Raiding and right now I think SOE has done a good job not crossing that line.</div>