Update 16b - Duel Weild DPS Increase

[Wasuna]

<DIV>Everybody does realize that the DPS gap between Typical Guardian DPS and Monk/Bruiser/etc DPS just got wider didn't you? The damage rating on duel weild weapons was boosted with the patch on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm amazed with SOE. I just don't get it. Guardians get crap and other fighters just get the gap widened.</DIV>

[Owlbe]

<P>Guardians can not duel wield?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Creppie]

Hmm could have sworn warriors (guardians and berzerkers) could use dual wield weapons.  In a non MT group role, I would think you would like the increase.<div></div>

[Dedi]

<span><blockquote><hr>Creppie wrote:Hmm could have sworn warriors (guardians and berzerkers) could use dual wield weapons.  In a non MT group role, I would think you would like the increase.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes Guardians can use dual wield weapons.  However, if we want to tank as well as a brawler, we MUST USE A TOWER SHIELD.  Make more sense now? While we do benefit somewhat from this change, it gives brawlers even more of a dps advantage when tanking.  To top it off, they also decreased the riposte rate on fast dual wield weapons.  Who benefits from that?  Ripostes don't happen when you are behind a mob.  They only happen when you are tanking.... which fighters tank while dual wielding....?</span><div></div>

[Creppie]

<div></div>Notice I said in a non MT role?  If you are the MT, dps should be the last thing you're worried about.  Brawlers mostly use two hand weapons when in the MT role anyway.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Creppie on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:35 PM</span>

[Twoboo]

<DIV>We Guardians do use Duel Weild, however I understand the OP's point.  DPS with dw is now greater than it was for anyone that uses dw vs anyone not using dw.  Guardians do not have the ability to self haste anymore with spells, another class that can do this are even better off after this change.  That said this change is not realy a big deal, our disparity with other classes stems from other mechanics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hanzul Twobooks</DIV> <DIV>52 Guardian</DIV>

[Belgor]

<DIV>If anyone should complain about this it is crusaders :p</DIV>

[Lyrus]

Most brawlers that tank regularly from what I've seen prefer to use 2 handers. Although  with the changes to the frequency of ripostes based on the speed of your attacks, this may change. <div></div>

[Dedi]

<span><blockquote><hr>Creppie wrote:<div></div>Notice I said in a non MT role?  If you are the MT, dps should be the last thing you're worried about.  Brawlers mostly use two hand weapons when in the MT role anyway.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Creppie on <span class="date_text">11-04-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:35 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Why do they use 2handers when tanking?  I always thought it was to lower riposte damage.  Which brings us back to the original point.  This further widens the gap between brawler and guardian DPS while tanking since they are lowering riposte rate on fast dual wield weapons.  Also, DPS may be the last thing you worry about, but I prefer to have every edge I can get when it comes to holding agro.  Unless the mob has an abnormal riposte rate, DPS helps immensely in both establishing and keeping agro. MT roll or not, raiding isn't everything Creppie.  Alot of the guardian gripes focus on being the least desireable standard group tank because we offer so little in a single or small group situation.</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

Most use 2 handers because of the delay.  Which isn't going to be a factor, or at least as much of one, after LU16.

[darkjb69]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dedite wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Creppie wrote:<BR>Hmm could have sworn warriors (guardians and berzerkers) could use dual wield weapons.  In a non MT group role, I would think you would like the increase.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes Guardians can use dual wield weapons.  However, if we want to tank as well as a brawler, we MUST USE A TOWER SHIELD.  Make more sense now? <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm a 47 Guard and I actually tank better with two weps than with a wep and shield.  I last much longer in a fight with the huge agi bonus than with any mitigation and sta bonus from shields.  I threw away my SBS and have tried some other tower shields as well but nothing has matched my duel wield of the Bone Dirk and SSOY.  Add to that the defensive stance and vigilance and I do very well tnaking (relative to myself with a shield not compared to any other char - heck - my wizzie buddy got agro and he almost lasted as long as I did as tank)<BR>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> darkjb69 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm a 47 Guard and I actually tank better with two weps than with a wep and shield.  I last much longer in a fight with the huge agi bonus than with any mitigation and sta bonus from shields.  I threw away my SBS and have tried some other tower shields as well but nothing has matched my duel wield of the Bone Dirk and SSOY.  Add to that the defensive stance and vigilance and I do very well tnaking (relative to myself with a shield not compared to any other char - heck - my wizzie buddy got agro and he almost lasted as long as I did as tank)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Not using a shiled will drop your avoidance down by about 1/2. If your standing in front of something in a grouo that actually requires you to be healed through the fight then you will do better with a shield. If your duoing with a wizard then your fighting stuff you can kill before it kills you.</DIV>

[Wasuna]

When tanking you always use a high delay weapon becasue your repisote rate is based on how many swings you take. 10% of 50 is much better than 10% of 500 when you get smacked for full average damage on the repositie. Now that the reposite rate is getting screwed with based on weapon delay, well, everybody that can will go for maximum dps then. Guardians, when tanking anything that actually is kind of tough will have to use a shiled and therefore not have the option to duel weild. Classes that do not need a shield in order to block can duel weild.

[Dedi]

<span><blockquote><hr>darkjb69 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Dedite wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Creppie wrote:Hmm could have sworn warriors (guardians and berzerkers) could use dual wield weapons.  In a non MT group role, I would think you would like the increase. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Yes Guardians can use dual wield weapons.  However, if we want to tank as well as a brawler, we MUST USE A TOWER SHIELD.  Make more sense now? </span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I'm a 47 Guard and I actually tank better with two weps than with a wep and shield.  I last much longer in a fight with the huge agi bonus than with any mitigation and sta bonus from shields.  I threw away my SBS and have tried some other tower shields as well but nothing has matched my duel wield of the Bone Dirk and SSOY.  Add to that the defensive stance and vigilance and I do very well tnaking (relative to myself with a shield not compared to any other char - heck - my wizzie buddy got agro and he almost lasted as long as I did as tank) <div></div><hr></blockquote>Are you talking about soloing or Grouping?  Iit sounds like you are talking about soloing.  A shield does little more than [Removed for Content] us while soloing because the added dps we do without one lets us drop the mob quite a bit faster, therefore we take less hits and expend less mana.  It doesn't really make sense to me, I would think a good 1 hander and shield should take less damage when killing a solo even con mob, but in practice we take far more damage with one.  It is however a topic worthy of a debate. If you are indeed talking about grouping then I'm guessing you aren't parsing.  A good shield significantly raises the amount of hits we avoid.  Shoot for T5 fabled or better at your level. Also, depending on what you are fighting a shield can be more or less necessary.  Greens and low blue cons for instance don't hit nearly as hard so we can get away using dual wield.</span><div></div>

[Kasar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:Most use 2 handers because of the delay.  Which isn't going to be a factor, or at least as much of one, after LU16. <div></div><hr></blockquote>The way to avoid ripostes entirely is to not autoattack.  Use range attack with the mob in close and you get no ripostes.  No dealing damage without using skills either, but for guards, the loss of damage dealt is minimal anyway. Wouldn't work well for classes that need to hit to proc hate, but it did for guards.</span><div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Saying damage doesn't matter is wrong in several ways. Dps = aggro. Our aggro sucks cuz our dps sucks. XP = dps. We get xp slower cuz our dps sucks. Non tanks desierably = dps or hps, we suck cuz we are last at both. <div></div>

[Kasar]

It was primarily a pre-CU method when tanking.  It was useful when taunting the primary mob while the raid beat up the adds, the healers could focus on the MA since the MT wasn't taking the huge riposte damage.  Usually by the time they turned on the main target, taunts alone had built up the hate and autoattack could be switched since the healers just had the MT to focus on. If the taunts are resisted now though, those few hundred points of autoattack damage in that time mean a lot more.  If it doesn't mean several thousand points of riposte damage in the new system, the tactic may be outdated.

[TunaBoo]

I never had to turn off auto attack once we got our healers decked out in t5, only in those 49 heavy darathar zerg fests in ebon gear ;P /srhug <div></div>

[Timzil]

I'd love for DPS to be the last thing on my mind when MTing. That would make me feel like all the other fighter classes when they are in MT role.

[TunaBoo]

Our dirge debuffs like 115 str, 115 agi, and like a 35% melee slow.  Hardly shabby. <div></div>

[Benfyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wasuna wrote:<BR>When tanking you always use a high delay weapon becasue your repisote rate is based on how many swings you take. 10% of 50 is much better than 10% of 500 when you get smacked for full average damage on the repositie. Now that the reposite rate is getting screwed with based on weapon delay, well, everybody that can will go for maximum dps then. Guardians, when tanking anything that actually is kind of tough will have to use a shiled and therefore not have the option to duel weild. Classes that do not need a shield in order to block can duel weild. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly. The only time I ever duel wield is when fighting mobs a few levels below me and when I am grouped with reliable healers (or when I am MA and not MT). Problem I run into on the tough fights when duel wielding is the healers are saying wierd things like "OOM" and "good luck bro". I don't mind the change as it doesn't necessarily hurt our class but it isn't an equal or balanced improvement across the board for all fighters either. </P> <P>Still not feeling the love.</P> <P> </P> <P>Krrrath, lvl 60 Guardian of Kithicor (Finally)</P>

[JNewby]

<span><blockquote><hr>Creppie wrote:Hmm could have sworn warriors (guardians and berzerkers) could use dual wield weapons.  In a non MT group role, I would think you would like the increase.<div></div><hr></blockquote>by saying that u just show yer ignorance... if a monk could use a 1 hander and they got a dps increase and then monks were complaining and I stated... well u can use a 1 hander... that is just stupid... of course they arent gonna use a 1 hander in additionI think alot of scouts would be super [Removed for Content] at me when I start biddding on fabled dual wielders in raids... and with the limited cobalts one can get I dont thinhk  guard shoudl or can afford to by 4 different duasl wielding weapons... especially since our first jobis to tank... so comeon use yer brain a bit b4 opening yer mouth </span><div></div>

[Gungo]

One of guards biggest complaints is lack of dps soloing and lack of dps in secondary role. Rasiing dual wield dps would make soloing faster and more dps for guards as well (in non-tank role). Before we complain about something lets see how it turns out after some live testing if it does raise brawler dps to much i am sure there will be an adjustment so that brawler dps is still below scout dps.

[Hzor]

<DIV>I have feeling that EQ2 slowly moving in to EQ1 way. All DoF+ changes make EQ2 more like EQ1.</DIV> <DIV>I remember, that in manual and site was mentioned that this game will have same mechanix for both</DIV> <DIV>DW and 2H weapons with a bit less dps for 1H (becouse you can have HUGE defence boost with shields)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you remember in EQ1  DW was always better dps then 2H and WAY better than 1H weaps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets see way EQ2 moves in to EQ1 direction:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. SoE added free shield to Brawlers - like they have alwais shield with them - even when DW-ing. It was implemented</DIV> <DIV>long time ago (like 6 months or maybe more). Why ? i cant understand actually. If Plate tank need to be MT in group, and group</DIV> <DIV>killing really chalengingn things - they need to wear shield+1H instead of 2H (Warriors and Crusaders). Brawlers still can use their</DIV> <DIV>2H ers since they have ALWAIS shields with them. Why ? WHy not to give them option to ? So if brawler want to be MT on some challenging</DIV> <DIV>mobs ( aka almost orange when exp-ng ) they will need to wear shield like it was implemented in early game ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. LU13 increasing DPS of brawlers even more than prior - agayn i smell eq1 here - monks have there really cool dps (ofcourse not compared to roques</DIV> <DIV>and wizards <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Isnt in manual mentioned that 2H and DW weaps have SAME dps ? Yes, it is. But now SoE decided to move in to EQ1 direction even more</DIV> <DIV>in dps aspect of game. Now it will make even more difference between Brawlers dps - which CAN and WILL use DW and</DIV> <DIV>Crusaders - wich CANT AT ALL !!!. Also  increasing DW dps will make brawlers tanking really trivial. Everyone know that more dps - more agro</DIV> <DIV>Already having Best dps (ok almost same with scout class) helping them alot with agro, so increasing will have them really big + abowe all other tanks</DIV> <DIV>Will not be surprised if they will abla to hold agro with just autoattack on with 1 taunt casting ( ill check it after update on my RL friends 60 bruiser i often play atm)</DIV> <DIV>No one of plate tanks can afford to tank with DW (of course if mob not blue or white noob) since we loosing alot without shields.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not complaining - i tryed already. Just playing my new 34lvl Ranger alt atm (will try to get that 70% exp to finaly ding my guardian 60). now i can see really DIFFERENT game - very nice and interesting. Any mob which not orange i can kill in 3 shots maxinum - they dieing even prior they can reach me in melee.</DIV> <DIV> Easy killing blue heroics without any adept3 arts. I can sneak and make 3x more quests per given time than my guardian, if something goes wrong - evac is your friend ! Mob is hard ? then just kite it and avoide close combat etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes Soe you really made different games for different classes. Playing guardian now not even close with fun to any other class (exept clerics i think but they atleast</DIV> <DIV>have their primary role not nerfed so bad). Dont know mabe Guardian extra cool for some raid tanking T6 mobs, but... whole game not only raiding some noob need</DIV> <DIV>60lvl of exping / questing to get to the raid part of game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And buck to original idea - SoE please just tell now in patch notes :</DIV> <DIV>With todays increasing of DW dps we need to introduce you new role of fighters classes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Brawlers - even more dps than ever, best tank with DW (with reducing repostes) and best agro holders</DIV> <DIV>2. Crusaders - only support class for brawlers, current patch makes them fall behinde in dps even more.</DIV> <DIV>3.Warriors -  Zerkers : looks like can benefit of DW update couse of some they skills.</DIV> <DIV>                   Guardians : hmm maybe good for something but we dont know atm for what and in which situations</DIV> <DIV>                   we hope we will finde 2-3 encounters suited for guardians so you can play them 1-2 day per months</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Anyway Dinosaurus gone long time ago. Looks like same happened with Guardians. Ok nothing we can do here. SoE decide that Brawlers new UBER MUST HAVE</DIV> <DIV>class. We cant change anything. So ill just play my Ranger till Vanguard .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haik 59 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Neriak</DIV> <DIV>P.S. Sorry for English</DIV> <DIV>                                    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Drulak]

<P>True Gungo , but isn't DPs DW going up for all DW and not just Guardians , so it is not like we are getting a special bonus.  Altering our taunts to do DPS instead when solo , now that would be a good thing.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<DIV>there is no way to include damage on taunts w/o it being a negative factor. DD on taunts will make taunts break mezz, roots, fear, etc. Now you did say solo which I havent seen a spell made yet that acted different solo compared to group interesting idea nonetheless.</DIV> <DIV>and yes i did say dw increase is across the board which means its not just fighter based it also helps scouts. But if the DW increase is to high i am sure brawlers dps will get adjusted my point is it not neccesarily a bad change YET. It does help guards in 2 previously lacking forms of content. We will just have to wait and see the actual results after it goes live. It may very well be brawler dps increased to much with this change and i felt brawler dps was fine before.  But if needed it may need to adjust brawler dps after thsi change, but atm i  like this change. It means the offensive gaurd does more dps then the defensive guard which is a good thing. so to reiterate this is a good change, but it may require brawlers to be adjusted dps wise after the fact. for now lets just see the actual in game results.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit also in live atm 2handed wpns have been better dps then DW i think they meant for this patch to make DW dps = 2handed. But why go 2 handed now is 2DW = same dps as 2hander. And dw = more stats. Well 2hander would of been better for less riposte, but thats been changed as well. So the only real reason to go 2hander now is because its easier to get 1 awesoem wpn then 2 awesome wpns. So basically there is no real reason to go 2hander now if you had the choice. Funny thing though prior to this patch the only reason to go DW was because of the increase in a few stats, yet we saw a ton of DWing classes. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 AM</span>

[Veshtan]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This change does nothing for us, plain and simple.  Anyone trying to argue differently is deluded.  Does it help us do more damage when DWing?  Sure.....but it helps everyone else do the same so it in no way does anything to balance our class...it raises everyone up, not just Guards. <P>What we need is lower re-cast times on the meager damage arts we currently have (that 10 second drop for bull rush is a bunch of bull...well you know what) and we need to have better utilities.  Right now we're stuck with a massive amount of abilities that are only useful 1% of the time and SOE needs to fix this and give us utilities that are more useful, more often.  *shrugs* <P>Anyway, kudos to all DWers, your DPS should be better now.  I'm not saying that is bad, it'snot, just wanting to point out that this i now way helps Guards become a more balanced class.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Gungo]

I never said it helps balance guards, In fact this change imho is a wash. But it does help gaurds when soloing by helping them to solo faster or while they are in a support/dps role (don't laugh).  But to reiterate it helps lots of classes scouts and fighters (minus crusaders)alike. To see how much it effects actual game play i think it will have a very minor impact. Eitherway the only way to tell is to actually test the results on live.

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>I never said it helps balance guards, In fact this change imho is a wash. But it does help gaurds when soloing by helping them to solo faster or while they are in a support/dps role (don't laugh).  But to reiterate it helps lots of classes scouts and fighters (minus crusaders)alike. To see how much it effects actual game play i think it will have a very minor impact. Eitherway the only way to tell is to actually test the results on live. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Isnt that what Test server is for? So we dont pay to test something on live when it should of been tested on test seeing thats what test server is for to test something so you dont force your paying subscribers to test something that should of been tested on test to make sure people stay and play live knowing that what there going to be getting has been fully tested on test so it works correctly on live?

[Gungo]

Yup i agree taem sadly that hasn't happened all that much. So the best and fianl testing is still hitting the live servers.

[Wasuna]

<P>Adding the increased DPS for duel weild weapons does not in any way help Guardians. If we take our shiled off we lose half of our avoidance. I can't solo anything that would give me anykind of experiance at all without my shield. I can solo yellows without any up arrows but it drains my power and HP.</P> <P>This change helps the classes that have inate block. They get more dps, don't lose avoidance and don't forget the other change. Reduced Ripisote for fast weapons.</P> <P>This was a change for Assassins and it helps Monks and Brawlers but not plate tanks unless we are dps members of a group. Now we all know that Guardians are not DPS members of a group so this helps Guardians Zero.</P> <P>This is not a wash. This is an inadvertant widening of the tanking/dps/utility gap between Mitigation tanks and Avoidance tanks.</P>

[Gungo]

You are wrong soloing is abundantly faster dualwielding then it is using a 1 hander and shield. I gain more xp leveling dual wielding 2 cobalt wpns then using zalak tower shield and a cobalt 1 hander. 55 gaurd and growing. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just because you are bitter you cna not ignore the fact that if a guard is Not the MT in the group dual wielding is abundantly more dps then using a 1 hander plain and simply you are wrong. This does help guards.</DIV> <P>Remeber guards are no longer the best tank in all situations so you will be a support classes in some situations which means you will use Dual wield wpns in those situations. <P>the reason it is a wash is because on LIVE atm 2handers like RGF was in T5 did more dps then dual wielding as well as less riposte. NOW after lu16 DW is suppose to do more dps and less riposte. IN essence DW should = 2hander. Any brawler who tanked anything before genrally used 2handers now you will see more tankign with DW because it will equal the same dps as using a 2hander does on live after LU16. So in other words Nothing has changed other then the wpns used. </P> <P>In order for us to see if dual wielding is truly balanced to 2handers we have to see what actually happens in LIVE. It may very well be they went over board and made DW > 2handers but there is no way to tell yet. Or maybe they could of made dw =  2handers now. </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Once again for the slow minded this change is not meant to make DW have mroe dps and less riposte to 2handers it is meant to have DW equal the dps and riposte to 2 handers.  This change makes DW = 2handers. hence nothing changes for a brawler who used a 2hander prior to this patch.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 AM</span>

[Timzil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wasuna wrote:<BR> <P>Adding the increased DPS for duel weild weapons does not in any way help Guardians. If we take our shiled off we lose half of our avoidance. I can't solo anything that would give me anykind of experiance at all without my shield. I can solo yellows without any up arrows but it drains my power and HP.</P> <P>This change helps the classes that have inate block. They get more dps, don't lose avoidance and don't forget the other change. Reduced Ripisote for fast weapons.</P> <P>This was a change for Assassins and it helps Monks and Brawlers but not plate tanks unless we are dps members of a group. Now we all know that Guardians are not DPS members of a group so this helps Guardians Zero.</P> <P>This is not a wash. This is an inadvertant widening of the tanking/dps/utility gap between Mitigation tanks and Avoidance tanks.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's pretty much the bottom line. I would offer though, that it does help guardians who have accepted SOEs negligence and have given up on their guardians. The DW change will help them level up their replacement bruisers about 30 times faster than a guardian ever could.</P> <P>Spudge, PH for a 60 Guardian</P>

[Gungo]

<P>You are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong. </P> <P> This change makes DW = 2handers. hence nothing changes for a brawler who used a 2hander prior to this patch.</P>

[Wasuna]

<DIV>Lets just say that this change makes 2H = DW. This changes nothing for Guardians as we can not use either when tanking. Our tanking ability would take roughly a 20-30% hit if we do not have a shiled equiped. <FONT color=#ff9900>The test patch also decreases the ripisote rate when using fast weapons so in the very least this change opens DW as a viable tanking tool for those classes that are not dependant on their equipment in their primary/secondary slots for tanking</FONT>. This is the Avoidance tanks that get inate block that Mitigation tanks do not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll go so far as to call this a bug fix but it does open more choices for tanking in other classes that I do not have as a Guardian. More unequalness. I'll stay with my 1H/Shield and keep plugging away with my crappy DPS and not using 95% of all my utility in any situatation, grouped or solo, becasue it's a broken concept that doesn't help and can hurt a trememndous amount. I have a 2H that I use when I suppose to be taking the rightful place of a DPS class. I do what I can and blow my power as fast as I can  on the highest damage attacks that I have and I still suck at doing DPS.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>exactly wasuna it gives a tanking brawler more choices in wpns to tank with and gives a dps guard more choices to dps with. But in essence like i said it was a wash. It might gives assasins more dps since they always used DW.</P> <P>also the riposte fix was to equalize dw vs 2hander in regards to riposte as well again a wash. although i still think it faster to solo dual wielding then shield/sword combo but then again thats my preference. I rather kill fast and regen health out of combat faster then spend more time fighting. Some people would rather prefer to be in combat more then wait a few secs between pulls. Dont discount the power of good tradeskill food for soloing on a guard it helps a ton as well a Fotb  health regen items for soloing.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 PM</span>

[Wasuna]

<DIV>No.. it gives an Avoidance tank choices when Tanking and when DPSing. It gives a Guardian NO choices other than what we have now while tanking and a choice while DPSing. Two for Avoidance tanks and one for Guardians. Wow, more equalness!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will not give up until I as a Guardian am equal to all other fighter classes. Widing the gap (and I suspect inadvertantly) is not something that is acceptable.</DIV>

[Dfoley3]

If anything guardians are looking at this backwards. Atm a one hander + a shield = far better stats for tanking. Atm brawlers primarily tank with 2hand blunts....let me emphasize that...BLUNT...ie crush So heavy tanks get better stats (2 fabled items > 1) and the ability to hit any type of melee imune mob (1hpeircer, slash, blunt) This change makes it so: 1) brawlers can tank without insane repostes while using slash/perice 2) to decrease the stat void between a single 2 hander vs a one hander + shield 3) to increase the brute dps of all classes the can dual weild, which yes includes guardians....so anyone who says it doesnt help guardians is lieing.   Dual weilding dps > one hander dps, always has been , always will be.  Any guardian whos not tanking and is using a shield is the reason all guardians get generic flag for crap dps and worthless spots in groups. Soloing all depends on the set up....dual weild vs 1 hander, shield or no shield, off stance vs defense stance... at best soloing yellow con no arrows is amazing exp, and its very possible to make decent rates of exp as long as you set your self up to solo and not go out wearing full raid tank gear.....ie grab some + str, get a few dual weilds, upgrades those combat art atks.  its far easier then you think <div></div>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>If anything guardians are looking at this backwards.<BR><BR>Atm a one hander + a shield = far better stats for tanking.<BR><BR>Atm brawlers primarily tank with 2hand blunts....let me emphasize that...BLUNT...ie crush<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>So heavy tanks get better stats (2 fabled items > 1) and the ability to hit any type of melee imune mob (1hpeircer, slash, blunt)<BR></FONT><BR>This change makes it so:<BR>1) brawlers can tank without insane repostes while using slash/perice<BR>2) to decrease the stat void between a single 2 hander vs a one hander + shield<BR>3) to increase the brute dps of all classes the can dual weild, which yes includes guardians....so anyone who says it doesnt help guardians is lieing.   Dual weilding dps > one hander dps, always has been , always will be.  Any guardian whos not tanking and is using a shield is the reason all guardians get generic flag for crap dps and worthless spots in groups.<BR><BR>Soloing all depends on the set up....dual weild vs 1 hander, shield or no shield, off stance vs defense stance... at best soloing yellow con no arrows is amazing exp, and its very possible to make decent rates of exp as long as you set your self up to solo and not go out wearing full raid tank gear.....ie grab some + str, get a few dual weilds, upgrades those combat art atks.  its far easier then you think<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I don't even have 1 Fabled , so that argument kinda kicks out 90% of the Guardian Community <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:One of guards biggest complaints is lack of dps soloing and lack of dps in secondary role. <hr></blockquote>Thats fine but I want guardian avoidance to remain the same whether they are dual wielding or not. Basically when they dual wield it should be as if they are using a tower shield from the point of avoidance AND CAs. Guards should not have to tank worse than a monk to be able to dps like a monk.This of course makes shields obselete for fighters. One more step to DigimonQuest!

[MrMartin]

<P>Cant find this info anywhere and thought maybe my fellow Guardians could help me.</P> <P>When does LU16 go live? I thought I saw somewhere thats its tomorrow already (9th)<BR>but cant seem to find that thread again.</P> <P>Our guild is really exited about the changes to the guilds-raids and want to try them out.<BR>Me personally is very much looking forward to the Veteran awards as it will give me<BR>26% adv/trade XP and a few more nice things. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Prufro]

It's the anniversary update, so it will go in on the anniversary... Nov 9th. <div></div>