More Ideas for Useful 'Protection' skils

[Dedi]

Since any time a guardian suggests that the most defensive, lowest DPS, lowest utility fighter, should tank better than the LEAST defensive, highest DPS, highest 'USEFUL' Utility fighter the thread gets hijacked by a few certain individuals.... I'd like to focus this thread on Protection abilities that we should have.  We all know 'protection' is our class defining roll. Those of us who play guardians know that SOE's vision of protection abilities don't exactly work out in a real world situtation, not matter how good they look on paper. So if its set in stone that all figheters will tank equally, no matter what dps or utility disparities exist, here are a few ideas to give use GUARDIANS useful utility that can save the group (again, our class definining roll). 1.  I would like a ward that 'Protects' against magical damage.  For a T6 ability, I'm guessing somehwere in the 4000 point range would be very helpful in protecting my group.  A 15 second duration with a 90 second recast sounds about right to provide sufficient 'Protection'- Remember, our class defining role. This should also be instant cast to ensure we can get it off just when its needed.  Yes I know none of the guardian protection abilities are instant cast, but they are working as intended according the the devs.  If a caster can't take a few hits while you are retargetting and casting the ability, they don't deserve to be saved!! 2.  Since the 'Protection' of our group is our class defining roll,  What better ability to protect our group or raid from a complete wipe and potential lockout than a skill that lets me pretend that i'm dead, deceiving monsters into passing over my corpse.  Once this happens I can resurect healers who can then resurrect the entire raid.  This 'Protection' skill just saved an entire raid a potentially very long lockout timer, and gives us another shot at taking down that big baddy. I'm hard pressed to think of a better 'Protection' ability.  Some may agrue that this ability has nothing to do with tanking.  I am simply pointing out the 'Protection' and raid saving values of this skill.  In fact, as a bonus, perhaps an ability that causes the entire group to play dead would be an even better group 'Protection' skill. 3.  A short term, melee damage invulnerability would go along way toward protecting my group or raid. It doesn't have to be complete immunity... perhaps riposting all attacks for a 12 or so second duration, with around a 3 minute recast.  This shouldn't be overpowered because it only blocks melee damage, is short duration... with a LONG 3 minute recast timer. 4.  Since we are the most defensive tank,  I think a great addition to our 'protection' line would be an ability that raises melee resistances (Crush,Slash,Pierce).  This would have to come with a downside of course.  Why not a root?  Most of our other defensive abilities require us to rooted/snared/or otherwise gimped in someway, I don't think having ONE more will be a problem. 5.  All fighters now have some form of damage interecept ability.  The best ones seem to be the ones that give the target an additional chance to avoid based on the casters avoidance.  Finally... the defensive 'Protection' abilities we have been waiting for.  Errr... wait if all fighters get this ability in some form, would the caster I use the ability on rather have a chance to use my 30% avoidance, or a monks 60%+ avoidance.  An addition 30% avoidance isn't really that powerful is it?  My ability is still useful... isn't it?  Guardians are the 'protection' class.... shouldn't a group member want my protection buff rather than a brawlers? 6. Last but not least, what better 'Protection' ability is there, than being able to restore hitpoints, or heal as some like to refer to it as.  Lets see, Shadow knights can lifetap a monsters life, and add it to his own.  Brawlers have an ability that lets them heal themselves every 5 min (Ibelieve).  Paladins have their own share of wards and heals. So it seems all figheter archtypes have a aform of heal, except the warriors.  I guess thats fair since they are the better tanks right?  Err... whats that you say?  Berzerkers have an ability that signficantly boost HP regen for a short time? Uhhhhh What I meant to say was, all fighters have some form of heal, except for guardians, the most defensive, lowest DPS, least utility oriented class. What we do have. The DEFINING 'Protection' abilities that guardians get usually do exactly the oposite.  We have a couple intercept abilities that the other fighters don't get, thought most if not all fighters get some them in some form.  What our protection ablities do, is increase the total amount of damage a group takes.  To me, when I think 'Protection', the last thing that comes to mind is actually adding damage my group receieves.  To some this may make sense, but everytime I try figure it out, my head begins to explode. My personal favorite guardian protection ability: This one is just too good not to mention.  It's the bloodlines ability that bring us back from the dead for 30 seconds, but then causes are heart to explode.  If that isn't 'Protection', I don't know what is. Please feel free to add what 'Protection' abilities you feel the most defensive, lowest DPS, lowest Utility class should have.<div></div>

[Zhonata]

<P>My 2cents.</P> <DIV>Ok, the protective line obviously leaves something .... something, but it isnt good as of right now. So what  we are goign to do is throw out all the abilities except vigilance, guardian sphere, and intercede. Guardians need 1-2 tanking intercepts and 2-3 non tanking intercepts . What i mean by tanking intercepts are abilties that can be used while tanking (i.e. until canceled abilties). What i mean by non-tanking abilities are abilties that would not be suited for tanking (i.e. Short duration, long cast, short recast, and reaquire targets). All of these abilties will be buffs that procs. THe procs will give a small hate gain to the guardian like (100-250 hate). Lets face it if a guardian jumps out in front of a monster it is going to [Removed for Content] that monster off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok 1-2 tanking spells. These spells will be until canceled, single target,cannot stack, and require concentration. These spells will be cast directily on to the target. One of these abilties will be Vigilance. The other should be a single target buff with a % chance (like 20%) to proc and you block 75% of the damge off the target and you will take 100% mitigated ( so target will take 25% unmitigated damage and you will take 100% mitigtated, so like you just jumped out infront of them.) THis spell need to also proc some hate like 300 hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2-3 non tanking spells. 1 of these will be intercede, but it should be able to be case on 2 targets at a time  with a 15 sec duration and 10 sec recast. The other should be guardian sphere. Then there should be a 3 min timer/ 30 sec duration buff that targets any one member of the group and excludes them from the spell. This is done to exclude any damage from another mt, but allows the guardian a chance to protect his allies. So the guardian would be targeting the lets say my beserker cast the spell and it would exclude me from his protection. THe buff on the rest of the allies would be 50% chance to abosorb 50% from an attack and you take 75% mitigated ( so basically you half the damage everyone takes). This spell will have a downside. The guardian will be stunned for the duration of the spell, but you will gain a small amount of hate for ever intercept. Meaning you cant taunt, attack, change stances, use abilties, nothing. My idea behind the guardian taken mitigated damage is because the guardian will still be whereing is armor it make no since to have a guardian take unmitigated ( liek he wasnt wearing armor) when he is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some may say that these non-tanking intercepts can be used while tanking yes and no. Non of these spell will be stackable with another guardians spells. Intercede would be a hastle to maintain while tankin. Guardian sphere isnt smart to use while tanking. The last abilty stunns the guardian for 30 sec. The guardian will lose aggro faster than he is gaining it for that period and will be possible for him to lose it completly and there will be nothing he can do till the spell is up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of these abilties are open for discussing. A lot of it seemed some what over power from my persepective, but i figured we coudl start out overpowered and widle it down to the right numbers. I hope you guys like some of the ideas i really am trying my best to help you guys out . O yeah DPS wont help <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0><BR></DIV> <P> </P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>"Kamikaze"  - A 15second cast time, Melee AOE, that does 5X the Hitpoints of the caster in Damage to all creatures and players including the Guardian within 5m's.</P> <P>That should make us usefull!!!!  And it seems right inline with the theme to our other "protection" skillz.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant 55 Guardian</P>

[Zy]

<DIV>5.  All fighters now have some form of damage interecept ability.  The best ones seem to be the ones that give the target an additional chance to avoid based on the casters avoidance.  Finally... the defensive 'Protection' abilities we have been waiting for.  Errr... wait if all fighters get this ability in some form, would the caster I use the ability on rather have a chance to use my 30% avoidance, or a monks 60%+ avoidance.  An addition 30% avoidance isn't really that powerful is it?  My ability is still useful... isn't it?  Guardians are the 'protection' class.... shouldn't a group member want my protection buff rather than a brawlers?<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have an idea here, how bout instead of intercept using our avoidance, make it use our mitigation. Makes sense to me, we are basically "shielding" the person we apply this buff to...Why would my ability to juke and jive to avoid hits make the other person get hit less. But if I have a crapload of armor and a BAS (big [Removed for Content] shield) to block someone from being hit....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First they need to fix the shield factor issues and the mitigation issues tho...</DIV>

[Zhonata]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zykx wrote:<BR> <DIV>5.  All fighters now have some form of damage interecept ability.  The best ones seem to be the ones that give the target an additional chance to avoid based on the casters avoidance.  Finally... the defensive 'Protection' abilities we have been waiting for.  Errr... wait if all fighters get this ability in some form, would the caster I use the ability on rather have a chance to use my 30% avoidance, or a monks 60%+ avoidance.  An addition 30% avoidance isn't really that powerful is it?  My ability is still useful... isn't it?  Guardians are the 'protection' class.... shouldn't a group member want my protection buff rather than a brawlers?<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have an idea here, how bout instead of intercept using our avoidance, make it use our mitigation. Makes sense to me, we are basically "shielding" the person we apply this buff to...Why would my ability to juke and jive to avoid hits make the other person get hit less. But if I have a crapload of armor and a BAS (big [Removed for Content] shield) to block someone from being hit....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First they need to fix the shield factor issues and the mitigation issues tho...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Great post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the reason why it uses avoidance is because we jump out infront of them thus they avoid the damage. The damage need to be mitigated for the guardian tho.</DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Ummmm...If they use our mitigation they will still take damage...wouldnt it be better to give em a shot to avoid the damage altogether?  Or give it an aditional avoidance check, and if its not avoided then mitigate the damage?  To me Id rather give the finger wigglers a chance of avoiding damage altogether then a chance to take less damage...</P> <P>Or perhaps you mean just give them a chance at us taking and mitigating their damage instead of giving them an additional avoidance check...but you are missing a lot of points here.</P> <P>First off we already have intercept lines that give us the damage and not them...we barely use those skillz why do we want another?  Second on raids, we cant use those types of spells on a MT if we are the OT, cuz healers cant heal two targets at once....BUT the extra avoidance check makes us somewhat useful.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P> <p>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 PM</span>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>Ummmm...If they use our mitigation they will still take damage...wouldnt it be better to give em a shot to avoid the damage altogether?  Or give it an aditional avoidance check, and if its not avoided then mitigate the damage?  To me Id rather give the finger wigglers a chance of avoiding damage altogether then a chance to take less damage...</P> <P>Or perhaps you mean just give them a chance at us taking and mitigating their damage instead of giving them an additional avoidance check...but you are missing a lot of points here.</P> <P>First off we already have intercept lines that give us the damage and not them...we barely use those skillz why do we want another?  Second on raids, we cant use those types of spells on a MT if we are the OT, cuz healers cant heal two targets at once....BUT the extra avoidance check makes us somewhat useful.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P> <P>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well the way you intercept line really works is you jumping otu infront of the allie. SO you not taking any damage is a bit over the top. You are jumping out infront of them. You already have an abilty that ups there avoidance. Now as for the Non-tanking abily that effect all grpies but tank that could be an avoidance check if you wanted instead of a damage interception.<BR>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Say WHAT?</P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Benfyn]

<P>In truth, I think it should be both. Basically, if someone in the group has hate from a mob that mob is trying to kill <STRONG>them</STRONG>. I see it as our role to get in the way. The mob might try to avoid us or go through us to get to them or simply change targets and whoop on us but that's the idea. So why not both Mit and Avoidance checks based on our stats before it even gets to the target? Seems more in keeping with our role as meat shields.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Krrrath, lvl 59 Guardian of Kithicor </P>

[EvilIguana9]

I have been thinking something along the lines of attacks of opportunity when a mob switches to another target, perhaps with a hate inducing component.  Something else to think about are ways to get multiple tanks working together without increasing the total damage taken.  Perhaps giving guardians a bigger role in this respect would be something to pursue.  <div></div>

[Dedi]

Even though the orginal post was in jest (All the defensive abilities I listed are T6 monk abilities, when compared to our protection abilities it made me giggle.), I actually think some of these ideas make alot or sense.  I was going for irony, but nice job all the same. <div></div>