Question to SOE

[Zy]

<DIV>Your customer service guy has stated that you are watching the boards and are listening, but were not getting any feedback from you guys at all. There is a 6 page thread on this Guardian board now that has all kinds of ideas and suggestions, but why do we need to keep on posting suggestions when all we get in return is "Keep suggestions coming, were listening." </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The whole class of guardians in general (at least the ones that are posting here) have the same issues. Our characters are meant to be the best defensive tank class in the game. No one disputes that. We want to be able to get a hold of aggro in a normal situation and keep it. We dont care about fancy utilities, or huge DPS numbers, we just want to get up in a mobs face, keep its attention and absorb the damage the mob deals out, like our class should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be nice if you guys would attempt some type of communication with your community so we aren't left hanging and wondering [Removed for Content] is going on.</DIV>

[FlyByeT]

<DIV>Seconded....</DIV>

[Pry]

<DIV align=center><FONT face="Courier New" color=#ff00ff>We're sorry, SOE is busy with Wardens right now.  Please leave a message after the tone and your call will be answered in the order in which it was recieved.  If you are a Guardian, please hang up and call 1-800-BLIZZARD and they will be happy to assist you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT face="Courier New" color=#ff00ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT face="Courier New" color=#ff00ff>-BEEEEEEEP-</FONT></DIV>

[Krooner]

<P>Thanks for the thread and I agree.</P> <P>Why are we not seeing anything from Blackguard or anyone else who has the power to fix our class giving us at least a small nod ??</P> <P> </P>

[Arman]

We had this same problem with SoE in EQ1 during the Paladin vs. Warrior aggro saga.  SoE eventually gave us some offensive skills as well to hold aggro.  But bottom line is that I'm tired of having to recruit a dirge or swashy into my groups so that I can get a hate increasing buff because my Adept 3 hate skills won't do the trick with any type of DPS in the party.

[Raijinn]

<DIV>There are some ideas being floated around from what I hear however they aren't things that can be posted unfortunately. It's being looked into.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest I'm not Customer Service as they deal more with Accounts, Billing, Tech, and In game work. I'm more of an advocate for the players on the forums which is what Community Relations does.</DIV>

[Zy]

<P>Thanks for the reply Raijinn, my apologies for misposting your job title. I understand that their may be policies in place that forbid you from posting on upcoming changes to the game.  </P> <P>Without divulging company secrets to us, it is good to know that is being "looked into". Its also good to know that we have an advocate on our side within the company that can tell the "powers that be" what the problem are. </P> <P>I think the community is very upset right now, and can come to these forums and vent, but without some kind of feedback from the developers or the customer relations it just creates more of an aura of uncertainty, which inturn creates more animosity.</P> <P> </P> <P>I think we just all want to know that you guys realize there is a problem and are going to fix it.</P>

[Etherium]

<P>Sir,</P> <P>What I think would help the most would be a list from the SOE side of the issues that we are bringing up that you are looking at.  This surely cannot divulge what you may or may not change, but it would reassure us that you are listening and that our efforts are not in vain.  Perhaps you could put up a sticky of what issues you have noted and forwarded to the developers?  Anything would help.  The feeling of helplessness only makes tempers get shorter.</P>

[Gungo]

Dunno i feel posting a list is a double edge sword for them. For one if they post a list of what they were looking into the player base would instantly construe that to be a some sort of contract. Remember moorgards dps list. Peopel are still throwing that around screaming mages are doing more dps then scouts etc. When in fact moorgard said this is not a set list but it was what they were trying to get overall.  He said a guard could get as much dps as a bruiser if he had all masters etc and focused on dps wher eif the bruiser had all app4 and focused on defense would do less dps. (< which i don't think is happening). Everytime a dev posts such a list it becoems a binding contract to players to vent over and over and over. The undoubtably someone will claim items on the list don't need to be fixed while other will say certain items on the list need to be fixed that are nto included. For instace what if the dev posted they were increasing taunt and said nothign abotu removing root for HTL. That thread would turn into why isn't root being removed and why is taunts included when taunting is fine and the root sucks. Then you would have more guards come here saying taunts need to be increased and that the root doesnt bother them as much as the power drain and the power drian should be removed etc etc etc etc. Then you will have some brawler come here saying that raising this or that will unbalance fighters. Then the thread will turn into a flame war where gaurds claim they cant kill a green solo mob and bruisers are soloing heroic red cons using tsunami and his neat lifetaps and power regen buffs. Then Someone will comment how gaiage and moorgard are secretly lovers. Then the thread will get locked. Then a new thread will openly shortly with the title "SOE why do you hate guards". So really what would a list do at this point when all they are doing is talking about stuff on lunch break. When they actually have a set idea then i suggest they give you a comment such as "we currently have the devs looking at ......and adding......"

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Dunno i feel posting a list is a double edge sword for them. For one if they post a list of what they were looking into the player base would instantly construe that to be a some sort of contract. Remember moorgards dps list. Peopel are still throwing that around screaming mages are doing more dps then scouts etc. When in fact moorgard said this is not a set list but it was what they were trying to get overall.  He said a guard could get as much dps as a bruiser if he had all masters etc and focused on dps wher eif the bruiser had all app4 and focused on defense would do less dps. (< which i don't think is happening). Everytime a dev posts such a list it becoems a binding contract to players to vent over and over and over. The undoubtably someone will claim items on the list don't need to be fixed while other will say certain items on the list need to be fixed that are nto included. For instace what if the dev posted they were increasing taunt and said nothign abotu removing root for HTL. That thread would turn into why isn't root being removed and why is taunts included when taunting is fine and the root sucks. Then you would have more guards come here saying taunts need to be increased and that the root doesnt bother them as much as the power drain and the power drian should be removed etc etc etc etc. Then you will have some brawler come here saying that raising this or that will unbalance fighters. Then the thread will turn into a flame war where gaurds claim they cant kill a green solo mob and bruisers are soloing heroic red cons using tsunami and his neat lifetaps and power regen buffs. Then Someone will comment how gaiage and moorgard are secretly lovers. Then the thread will get locked. Then a new thread will openly shortly with the title "SOE why do you hate guards". So really what would a list do at this point when all they are doing is talking about stuff on lunch break. When they actually have a set idea then i suggest they give you a comment such as "we currently have the devs looking at ......and adding......" <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>But it was a dev that said that archetypes were broken for 10 months and now they are fixed.  Using your logic about how when devs post that it's a "binding contract" about what they will and will not do even if it is wrong at first, then who is to say that the devs aren't wrong about "archtype balance"?  It's a question that has been plaguing me for some time. </P> <P>For example, you will get chastized (and not by most Guardians mind you, but by other classes who don't play Guardians) if you post that you think what the devs said was wrong.  That the archetype system as it exists today was the intention all along.  Many non-Guardians who come and post on the Guardian boards use this as their mantra in applauding the changes to their classes, and the subsequent nerfs to Guardians.</P> <P>If we take what you are saying, and that we shouldn't put stock into what the developers say, then you cannot take stock in the fact that one of them posted that this change was the way combat were intended all along.  It leaves some pretty revealing questions.</P> <OL> <LI>Why wait 10 entire months to "fix" it when people spent considerable amount of time on their character development.  Is it fair to nerf classes in deference to others to fix a system that many people were happy with (and admittedly some were not)?</LI> <LI>Why make Guardians so [Removed for Content] in PvP and then state that a PvP system is coming in the future thus further alienating the Guardian community? </LI> <LI>Why make changes that have only resulted in entire classes being wiped out (population wise) compared to what they were even 5 months ago?</LI> <LI>Why implement a combat upgrade when there were more serious and pressing issues with the game that still exist to this day?</LI></OL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When one looks at these things, one has to wonder what the real intention for doing this is.  Because if the dev's word is not reliable, and nothing has been posted other than "we are listening" and 2 LU's have gone through without one positive change to Guardians, then certainly questions start arising.  If it looks like a skunk, and smells like a skunk, it's probably a skunk. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the discontent comes from the questions above.  More than just "my class was nerfed", but "why was my class nerfed?"  And then you look at people who come on here and say it was intended all along and that they simply called SOE out on their word that all fighters would have the same tanking ability.  When someone such as myself who comes on and has generally agreed that dev's cannot be taken at their word (not necessarily because of reasons of subterfuge) due to everything you describe above, then how do we know that the changes to the combat system were the right thing to do?  And therefore, why shouldn't someone question the things that they have to say?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it's a fair thing to say "These are our future plans for Guardians, what do you think?" and let people discuss them.  Other than "We are listening" which is fine and all but doesn't address any core issue.  It leaves the door open for more anger, more distrust, and therefore more flames.  For it was Moorgard who said that Guardians didn't need to be fixed and that things were working as originally intended.   And if that is to be indeed the final word on the issue, then we have a right to know that so that we can find something else to do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I certainly understand that people do take things at face value, but it has been more of a "This is the way it is, if you don't like it then too bad" attitude that's causing this whole issue.  The community cannot post ideas in a vacuum, you need feedback on if you are going in the right direction, or not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I personally think it's more than just an issue of Guardian balance, but an issue that involves forced grouping, low quest rewards, small experience gains contributing to a grind, and a bloated economy.  I also believe that if Bruisers (for example) felt like they couldn't tank the big raid mobs, then that issue should have been addressed seperately and not included a global update that severely took away from the time and effort that some people put into their own characters.   I think the questions above need to be addressed in order to build bridges with the community and maybe get some people back into the game by doing so. </DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>Actually prynn trying to misconstrue my meaning. I never said anything as such. Since you are so off the point I will clarify it a bit for you. It is not a good idea to post what they are considering changing until they have an idea of what they are changing. Now that giant post of a rant you posted has nothign to do with that and yes the developers have stated the classes as they are today are closer to what they wanted them to be. I never said you shouldnt put stock into the developers statements (that is you who are misleading people) I said The player base takes every word written as set in stone, when in fact even when the developers states it can change or it is variable the player base crys out foul play when they don't see it exactly as lets say that DPS chart came out. <SPAN class=time_text>Don't try to reiterate my statement when you obviously have no clue. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>This wasn't just soem random combat revamp. This was planned since early january. It was always stated they were doign a complete combat revamp. There were many many peopel complaining combat was messed up and PC's (gaurdians the easiest) where near the point of invulnerabilty. raids were trivilized so much they had to raise the mobs lvl to even be a challenge still some gaurds could tank many raids afk w 1-2 healers. Some x4 mobs where being killed by 1 group. contested became so trivial they added unavoidable aoe trauma dam atks to them.  Gear even fable had very little effect. Key classes were so powerful they became the staple classes nessecary for raids. These key clases became so powerful that they made or broke groups. They made or broke raids. The fact that many guards left only reinforces the fact they are flavor of the month players lookign for the biggest edge player. Most of them didn't care if they were a guard, a zeker , or bruiser as long as their character they played wa sthe best. hence all those rants saying "I WANT TO BE THE BEST DEFENSIVE TANK" That has nothign to do with balance that has everything to do with a type of person who justs wants to play the BEST class. Sorry to tell you there is no best class anymore. Moorgard has already said they have no intention of changing the combat revamp. That Lockeye the main dev behind combat balancing has said the same. Guards cna either accept that fact or continue to moan on these boards they are no longer the best. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>The truth is the only thign broken on Gaurd in my opinion is a weak offensive stance and lack of needed use in protection abilites. Other then that tanking is equal. If you don't believe me ask your self this one question. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG>Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps.</STRONG>  <STRONG>That in itself is balanced</STRONG></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 PM</span>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Actually prynn trying to misconstrue my meaning. I never said that since you are so off the point. I will clarify it a bit for you. It is not a good idea to post what they are considering changing until they have an idea of what they are changing. Now that giant post of a rant you posted has nothign to do with that and yes the developers have stated the classes as they are today are closer to what they wanted them to be. I never said you shouldnt put stock into the developers statements (that is you who are misleading people) I said The player base takes every word written as set in stone, when in fact even when the developers state it can change or it is variable the player base crys out foul play when they don't see it exactly as lets say that DPS chart came out. <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:55 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face=Verdana>But you take "The classes are the way they are originally intended" as written in stone <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And it still doesn't answer any of the fundamental questions that I listed above.  </FONT>

[Gungo]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 AM</span>

[Pry]

Certainly I think (or I would hope) people understand that your posts are in regards to not wanting to get nerfed. I didn't need to go back to my post to change the meanings of them. Furthermore, since I actually play a Guardian I have much more of a vested interest in what happens to my class than someone that plays a Bruiser and hasn't touched a Guardian.

[Gungo]

<P>Once again Prynn you are off the topic and attacking the poster because your arguments hold no water. I don't change my arguments the most i do is add to them because if you spend more then 2 minutes on these boards with an open reply you end up timing out. So genrally i finish what i was posting as you can clearly see when you even qouted that nothign has changed. You try to resort to petty name calling to disprove my arguments because you never have an idea or thought of your own. It shows a lack of maturity a reasonably person would have. Every post you continue to write only further proves me point. This topic had nothing to do w nerfing my class which i alread advocateed prior in certain areas. This topic has to do with the developers communications early in the developement of changes and ideas to certain classes. When you can comprehend that instead of name calling, then please go ahead and place a logical reply.</P> <P> </P>

[Pry]

Then clearly if you believe that, you read nothing in my post. Read it again.

[Nemi]

<P>Well I read your post and all I got was some pretentious Freudian pyscho-babble.</P> <P>Who can we trust? Are you real? Perhaps I'm the only real person in this world and you're all figments of my imagination.</P>

[Pry]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 AM</span>

[Allowin]

<DIV>Gungo...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Yersis Sotiny lvl 52+ Gnome Warden<BR>Gungo Boom lvl 55+ Troll Bruiser<BR>Officer of A.O.D.----innothule server<BR>over 1100+ quests served</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hummm. no where in those 4 lines do i see the word Guardian......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just another punk that does NOT play a guardian being a forum Troll pointing at us guardians while saying "Neener Neener"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Nope i do freely admit i am a forum troll since i do post a decent amount. Not that it bother me, but I am not discussing here whether or not guards need a fix the inital point of this post was whether SoE should list what they plan on looing into changing when they were only in the discussion stage of changes. And i already posted many times i have played a guardian and used them to tank on raids. pre and post revamp. I have played almost every class on raids. Some more then others I just recently added yersis to my sig yesterday even though i play with her dual boxing the majority the time for the last 3months. Most times i even end up raidign w her, a coecer alt, a troub alt, or even our guild gaurd when needed on raids. Rarely is gungo needed for me to play, but good try :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  Even though this is off the original posters topic. I will post one tidbit most prolly past over. Pre-revamp there was classes many claimed where necessary for a raid or flat out made raiding or grouping tons easier. Now ask your self this.....</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG>Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps.</STRONG>  <STRONG>That in itself is balanced</STRONG></SPAN></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:40 AM</span>

[Danter]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Gungo, play a Guardian and then report your results.  I'm tired of non Guardians, who know nothing about playing a Guardian, saying Guardians are fine.  I rolled up a Brusier after Moorgard's "Unsung Hero post" because I don't like the direction SOE has Guardians heading to, so I've been on both sides of the fence.  My Bruiser is 1000x more fun to play, has unique skills, and actually contributes when grouping and soloing.</P> <P>Yes, every class can tank.  The thing that is broken is that tanking is the only thing Guardians can do.  Guardians can tank in raids, but MTing a raid is a 1 person job out of 24 and happens once a week to the casual player.  As it stands right now, 2 Guardians in a raid is 1 too many.  1 Guardian in a normal group is 1 too many.</P> <P>The only time I log my Guardian in is to MT raids because, to put it bluntly, it sucks playing him in all other situations.  That is the core problem and that is the problem that the majority of the Guardian community is upset about.</P> <P>All fighters can Intervene with the Intercede line, so Sentry and Guardian's Sphere, as worthless as they are now, offers us no uniqueness.  Our damage still sucks.  Our new level 55 and 58 class defining skills are completely broken.  They don't just suck, they are flat out broken.</P> <P>Templars recently fall into the same category as Guardians.  Druids can now heal the same, have more utility (evac + SoW, duststorm/porcupine), have faster cast times on their spells, and do more damage, so where is the uniqueness in Templars anymore?</P> <P>Assassains, the third pure class (All DPS, 0 utility), are broken as well.  Rangers can outdamage them 2:1, although the fix for Assassains is really easy and just requires lowering their recast timers on their high damage attacks so they do more DPS.</P> <P>The problem is SOE designed pure classes (Templar and Guardian) and now want everyone to be equal, which leaves the pure classes severly gimped compared to their counterparts because of their lack of uniqueness and effectiveness in other areas.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Gungo]

<DIV>I did play a guar di have posted my results.  I never said gaurds were fine and i have offered ideas to help guards. Until yesterdays patch wardens were worse off them templars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems to me by your own admission guards problems has nothing to do with tanking. You said yourself your bruiser is mroe fun to play and i qoute "My Bruiser is 1000x more fun to play, has unique skills, and actually contributes when grouping and soloing." because he has unique skills, and contributes while soloing and grouping" (guessing dps for grouping). So what does need to be fixed one must ask. Well if i follow your post it seems to make gaurds as fun as bruisers they should get unique skills and increase dps. In fact it was stated prior a gaurd who focused on offense should out dps a bruiser focusing mroe on defense < this is not the current case. I always believed a fighter should do significantly less dps while in defensive stance (gaurds are fine in this regard) but significantly mroe dps in offensive stance ( which is not a significant jump from what i see).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now templars on the other hand do need more dps as well. I think its time to revive the EQ1 HAMMER pet, some undead nukes and root. On the healing side templars have a step above druids since thier group reactive will take full effect on the 1 person tanking whereas a group regen always applies to everyone in group. Problem is the reactive cast time is to long. There is rarly a chance to every cast a group reactive, the cast time on the group reactive needs to be lowered 3-4 secs. to make it even plausible to cast during combat. I do not know as much on healers as i do on fighters so i will leave that debate to better men. but those are my basic understandings of some probelms with templars. EQ1 also had a buff that reduced all melee damage a target took by 10% when that 10% totaled a set number lets say 3000hp the buff would fade. I don't see why they can't reintroduce that spell line.</DIV>

[Danter]

<P>My Bruiser is only level 35 and isn't raiding yet, so I have no experience with them tanking raid mobs compared to my Guardian.  I also can't speak directly in tanking on Bruiser vs Guardian because the revamp made both of these classes different and comparing the old Guardian at level 35 to the new Bruiser at level 35 is pointless.  Once I hit 50+ with my Bruiser, I will post about a tanking disparity.</P> <P>I also realize I haven't hit some of their core skills yet, too, so I'm sure my fun factor will increase as I hit 50 and then 60.  The above post was just in my experience playing a Bruiser so far.  I try not to post on topics I am not 100% informed in. </P> <p>Message Edited by Danterus on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:42 AM</span>