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Hushnoob
10-08-2014, 09:38 PM
I agree. I am not utility.<br /> <br />I raided a coercer for years. I didnt roll a warlock for the group buffs.<br /> <br />Not to mention this will only open an entire new can of worms when you have assassins and rangers crying about class balance because we have deeps and too much utility now. There have been rangers on the forums crying about every other class that beats them on the parse having more utility than them since KOS. This will only make it worse.<br /> <br />Sorcerers are dps. Leave us that way. Give that buff to the healers.

Laita
10-08-2014, 09:49 PM
I try my best not to hate on other classes gripes, but honestly, sorcerers are hands down the <b>BEST</b> dps class in the game and have been for quite some time, so I see nothing wrong with SoE adding a little utility, that you may have to cast every once in a while on select fights, to ensure your groups survivability. Afterall, you'll do more DPS alive than you will dead!<br /> <br />With that being said I didn't beta copy my Wiz b/c all I really care about in beta is my main, so not sure how drastic the cast time and recovery time is for this, but you made it sound like the world is ending, so maybe SoE should look at that. Nothing but love for you though Mogrim!! <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

Mogrim
10-08-2014, 10:01 PM
Ok, here goes<br /><br />Bulwark of Mana: <br /><br />10% current health and 30% power to cast <-- expensive! <br /> <br />.25s cast time w/ capped cast speed <--- not that bad actually.<br /> <br />1.5s recovery w/ capped recovery <--- compared to .25 for pretty much everything else, this makes the overall time spent be at least 1.75, not to mention natural lag from 1 spell to another. That is exactly as much time as it takes a sorcerer to cast Blast of Devastation (ignoring Wizard prestige for a second) <br /> <br />8 second duration, 20% elemental/nox/arcane damage reduction for group, 50 metere raidus<br /> <br />That said, this shuts us down for almost 2 seconds, about the same time as what we devote to some of our strongest spells.<br />Like I said, if you want to give us one less dps tool because we're already "strong enough" then a happier medium would be to remove the recovery from this. Ideally it would be something we could toss while casting something else. Instead of paying a decent time penalty along with 10% health/30% power, have the only real cost be the health/power.<br /> <br />On top of that, the 8 second duration is pretty short. If you insist on keeping this as is, 12 seconds would probably be better.

Laita
10-08-2014, 10:19 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote"> <aside> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">10% current health and 30% power to cast<br />1.5s recovery w/ capped recovery</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Ouch, yeah, I'll agree completely that these two should both be looked at again by the devs, but at least the recovery, that just seems rather extreme.

headbusta
10-08-2014, 10:49 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mogrim"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mogrim said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6111003#post-6111003" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">However, even though it is strong, you likely wouldn't see us ever use this ability unless the content forced us to use it. <br /> <br />10% current health and 30% power to cast <-- expensive!</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I also see this as something that's not going to be cast unless it's absolutely required. It's going to need some type of group utility to increase dps if it's going to be cast often.<br /> <br />With such a high power cost, how about for the duration of the buff it increases the potency of group members by 0.5% of the 30% max power. With 150,000 power that's 225 potency to the group for 8 seconds and with the amounts of potency that are going to be flying around in the expac that doesn't seem too extreme, but of course numbers could be adjusted depending how drastically power pools are going to be changing. But at least it gives a reason to cast the ability on something other than end game progression fights.

Jokirr
10-09-2014, 03:52 AM
Only problem I see with giving Frigid Gift and Curse of Darkness 10% magic damage reduction is that the durations on both are not the same. Which would put even more value into wizards, and theirs already is better than ours with the addition of melee proc'ing it.<br />Though its a minor problem, I still think if this change were to be made that the duration of Curse should also be addressed.<br /><br />Would also like to see Aura of Pain give us stacks of Toxic Aura, for a spell that's very efficient to cast, it's very annoying to have to skip it because it only slows us down.

Mogrim
10-09-2014, 08:31 AM
So... I'm sure most sorcerer's (myself included) aren't exactly thrilled at the idea of a utility-based option... specifically one w/ a high fuel cost, high cast time, and a massive recovery time.That said, I know the Sorcerer is a strong type of toon to play right now.<br /> <br />However, even though it is strong, you likely wouldn't see us ever use this ability unless the content forced us to use it. If the content forced us to use it, it would also greatly punish sorcerer dps due to the time invested in each cast.<br /> <br />My first thought would be... if we're going to be required to use this, make it a "can be cast while using other abilities" and remove the recovery time. I wouldn't be thrilled, but the penalty for using this is too severe.<br /> <br />Otherwise, I think a more popular alternative would be something like this.... if you really want to give us more optional utility that actually gets used, do this! <br /> <br />Suggestion: Sorcerer's Blessing<br /><br />2 Effects: <br /><br />1) Surge of Ro and Gift of Bertox are now maintained abilities.<br />2) Frigid Gift and Curse of Darkness now also grant 10% Magic Damage Reduction to the group, stack with each other and both spells now cast instantly.<br /> <br />I think it would play nicer and not have unintended dps-hurting side-effects like the original spell.

Nubek
10-09-2014, 11:26 AM
I would definitely like to see Aura of Void generating increments. Also Dark Aggravation should be able to double cast.<br /> <br />Other than that, I have to say the new prestige tree is one of the blandest we've ever had. Would've liked something more imaginative than stat increases.

Iseous
10-09-2014, 02:39 PM
All hostile spells should be able to double cast. And I don't see why Soulburn/Lifeburn can't double cast either.<br /> <br />And I would have to agree that this new prestige tree is not that interesting. Are we able to put more points into the old tree, or do we have to put them in the new one?

Mogrim
10-12-2014, 10:44 PM
Another thing. With the new mechanics coming out, Catalyst (Sorcerer Tree AA) finally needs to be touched up. We're already guaranteed crits on everything w/ current gear setups. That means Catalyst essentially does nothing. Instead, it should give a massive chunk of critical chance on the next spell cast, with the enhance AA's giving even more? Seems the best way for that to be done.<br /> <br />Finally, Master Strike still needs to both hit harder and be irresistible. The plain 'ole lore of the ability makes it so that it should at least be a viable filler on mobs that one can actually use it against.

Mogrim
10-12-2014, 11:00 PM
Side extra note - I still stand by the initial point that our 1st prestige entry ability is terrible. It would either go unused (bad) or content would force us to use it (worse, because it would hurt our dps) <br /><br />The T1 dps tree is about as balanced as it has been in a long time. Warlocks and Wizards are close as we've been in a long time. Rangers and Assassins do less sheet damage but actually do more than Sorcerers when you count their max-health debuffs. Necros and Conjurers struggle a little to keep up on AOE content but actually are arguably the strongest classes on single/2 target content. The only T1 dps that needs help is Beastlord.

Mogrim
10-15-2014, 11:48 PM
A few pretty significant concerns after getting 100 and testing the new Prestige:<br /> <br />1) Unda Arcanus Spiritus doesn't generate increments. Neither does the damage from Skull Focii.<br />As a result: A) Unda Arcanus Spiritus is worthless and should never be used.<br /> B) Skull Focii's damage portion is worthless and should never be used.<br /> <br />I see this as something of a problem. Predators are getting pretty heavily buffed with changes to poisons, <b>and they already contributed more to killing raid mobs due to max health debuff mechanics.</b><br /> <br />2) Bulwark of Mana is still bad, for my above stated reasons. However it is possible this is being looked at...<br /> <br />Which all leads to my biggest concern after playing on test.<br /> <br />3) Balance balance balance. Right now, Sorcerers get into raids because they do more damage than Assassins and Rangers. However, a raid always wants 1 Assassin and 1 Ranger at even greater priority because of how their max health debuffs work. If Sorcerers do less damage than predators, we do not bring anything else to the table. As stands on live, the classes were balanced because the combined utility of max health debuffs and T1 damage (albeit lower than sorcerers) kept predators in line with Sorcerers in terms of overall <i>value</i>. Sorcerers are intended to be the alpha class on the parse <b>**because**</b> we offer next to nothing else other than the pure output of damage. No significant debuffs, no significant group buffs, just damage. Balance predators and summoners to have equal damage to us and there is no reason for us to exist.

Enigma
10-16-2014, 12:03 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mogrim"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mogrim said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6115145#post-6115145" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">A few pretty significant concerns after getting 100 and testing the new Prestige:<br /> <br />1) Unda Arcanus Spiritus doesn't generate increments. Neither does the damage from Skull Focii.<br />As a result: A) Unda Arcanus Spiritus is worthless and should never be used.<br />B) Skull Focii's damage portion is worthless and should never be used.<br /> <br />I see this as something of a problem. Predators are getting pretty heavily buffed with changes to poisons, <b>and they already contributed more to killing raid mobs due to max health debuff mechanics.</b><br /> <br />2) Bulwark of Mana is still bad, for my above stated reasons. However it is possible this is being looked at...<br /> <br />Which all leads to my biggest concern after playing on test.<br /> <br />3) Balance balance balance. Right now, Sorcerers get into raids because they do more damage than Assassins and Rangers. However, a raid always wants 1 Assassin and 1 Ranger at even greater priority because of how their max health debuffs work. If Sorcerers do less damage than predators, we do not bring anything else to the table. As stands on live, the classes were balanced because the combined utility of max health debuffs and T1 damage (albeit lower than sorcerers) kept predators in line with Sorcerers in terms of overall <i>value</i>. Sorcerers are intended to be the alpha class on the parse <b>**because**</b> we offer next to nothing else other than the pure output of damage. No significant debuffs, no significant group buffs, just damage. Balance predators and summoners to have equal damage to us and there is no reason for us to exist.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I agree with most of what you saying however i think summoner's need to either be on par(in terms of dps for single target and AoE)with sorcerer's or bring more utility to the table. Give sorcerer's some utility and buff summoner's damage to be equal to that of a sorcerer and keep the predator's the max health debuffers and they should be close if not top single target dpsers.

Mogrim
10-16-2014, 12:37 AM
Here is the thing. With max health debuffs, if a predator does half of a sorcerer's parse on a named, but keeps max health debuffs on a named... they contributed more to the mob's death than the sorcerer! Because that is true, no, they should not be close or top dps on ANYTHING unless their max health debuffs are taken away.<br /> <br />When it comes to summoners, they definitely do bring more utility to the raid than sorcerers, and are (all things equal) just as strong on single target encounters as long as the mob has a decent size health pool. On top of that, Necros have a 1.6 (or 1.7 if grandmastered) % max health debuff which means if they get close to a sorcerer on the parse, they're already borderline. I think the answer here is that class balance was and has been fine. If predators get more damage (aka poisons can crit now), sorcerers need something that balances against that.<br /> <br />As to summoners, you're actually in a pretty darn accurate place. Maybe add a little extra utility but your damage is about right.

Iseous
10-16-2014, 01:01 AM
Imo max health debuffs should be taken away from at least DPS classes. I think it is kinda lame if their DPS potential is balanced around that. DPS classes want to see their contribution directly from the parse. <br /> <br />I agree that this new prestige isn't very appealing. And I'd have to say that pretty much all of the summoner/sorcerer prestige choices aren't very interesting. The old prestige is still interesting to mess around with. I'd rather spend more points in there than get these new choices.

Buffrat
10-16-2014, 03:29 AM
Sorcerers have more relevant utility than Summoners. :|<br /> <br />The new starting bubble makes Sorcerers even godlier on the utility scale.<br /> <br /> <br />I dislike how the bottom left endline works, and how it's best for everyone but warlocks to just set it and forget it (and warlocks cast it twice rather than once)

Arieste
10-17-2014, 04:19 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mogrim"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mogrim said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6113278#post-6113278" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Another thing. With the new mechanics coming out, Catalyst (Sorcerer Tree AA) finally needs to be touched up. We're already guaranteed crits on everything w/ current gear setups. That means Catalyst essentially does nothing. Instead, it should give a massive chunk of critical chance on the next spell cast, with the enhance AA's giving even more? Seems the best way for that to be done.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>This can also be changed to be a guaranteed type of crit - for example, next spell guaranteed to be a legendary crit, additional ranks significantly increase chance of myth crit. Or something like that. This would be in the spirit of what the buff is meant to do.

Iseous
10-17-2014, 10:27 PM
Warlocks are going to be really OP if they do that to Catalyst.

Mogrim
10-18-2014, 12:51 AM
First of all, probably not.<br />Why? It would only affect 1 spell per minute.<br /> <br />That said, I think it should be something like +X Crit Chance added to next spell cast or something, depending on how the curves work, where X = a significant number that greatly increases the odds that the next spell will be legendary crit, but remains a useful number if itemization makes it to where legendary crits are common.

Iseous
10-18-2014, 02:11 AM
Yeah and that one spell is probably the hardest hitting one in the game lol. Couple that with 100 more Crit from Focused Casting and Warlocks will not only have the highest chance for a mythical crit, but the hardest hitting spell for it every minute. It would be awesome, but at the same time I want other DPS classes to at least stand a chance.

Mogrim
10-18-2014, 03:07 AM
I think you're overstating a Sorcerer's value going into the xpac, knowing the changes that Preds are getting.

Iseous
10-18-2014, 04:14 AM
I haven't really looked at them, but if that's the case then I'd be all for a better Catalyst.

Buffrat
10-18-2014, 04:43 AM
The change to Catalyst wouldn't even work in the first place, new crit system checks on a per-hit basis not spell cast. If you Catalyst'd your increment nuke only 1 of 5 (or 1/10 when SDA'd) hits would get any benefit.<br /> <br />All predators get are an increase to poisons which are going to be nerfed into oblivion the first day we raid test and a dev looks at my assassin's parse.

Iseous
10-18-2014, 05:09 AM
At least that's better for consistent DPS. No huge spikes <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" />

Mogrim
10-18-2014, 06:20 AM
Yeah. Poisons crit now. Sooooo yeah.

Nubek
10-20-2014, 12:08 AM
Having tested out the new AAs I'm honestly disappointed. Unda Spiritus Arcanus is barely worth casting in it's current form with the damage being this low (if you're at max range it's maybe on par with Blast of Devastation), and the fact that the damage is spread over multiple targets instead of applying to each target separately makes it even worse in an AoE situation. Same with Skull Focii, the damage from the AOE is so low you basically cast it for the potency bonus and that's about it.<br /> <br />I feel like both abilities need some rethinking. Personally, instead of Unda Spiritus Arcanus, I think it would be cool to have an ability on a longish reuse timer (say 2 to 3 minutes at 100% reuse) that instantly maxes out our increments, so we can start fights at 180 increments occasionally, or we get that FC reset just after we blew our increments, or theres a badly timed TW. Would have to come up with a dual function so people with leftside prestige also get something out of it though.

Bloodguts
10-20-2014, 12:41 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mogrim"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mogrim said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6116447#post-6116447" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Yeah. Poisons crit now. Sooooo yeah.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Poisons can't crit.

Mogrim
10-22-2014, 12:13 AM
Ok, whatever the revamp was that makes them do massive damage. You get the picture.

Rockefeller
10-30-2014, 11:46 PM
I am totally underwhelmed in our new AA "options". It isn’t even the abilities themselves that is underwhelming, it’s that you cookie-cuttered them across the board for all the classes.<br /> <br />This game is nearly dead, and they only thing that is going to keep it going, is a little bit of imagination on your part. Instead once again, you decide to take the easy route.<br /> <br />Its not that you’re incapable of imagination, some of the new class AA’s are actually nice. What isn’t nice is simply duping the same ability over again for the other classes. All you are saying is you do not care about your customer base enough to deliver a quality product. Or for that matter, listen to them. If you read a good percentage of the posts in this forum, you will see that most of your customers would rather you fix the stuff that doesn’t work, instead of producing new content.<br /> <br />I’ve been playing this game since launch. I would hope that might trigger a sense that you are hearing from a fairly loyal customer. This is the first time in my career in this game that I can honestly say I have no interest in continuing. Sadly, it didn’t have to be that way. However, if you are not going to care anymore, then neither am I.

Naneeje
10-31-2014, 01:55 AM
Rockefeller, please send your plats to Naneeje. Thank you!<br /> <br />The content is not cookie cutter and I am very very excited about the zones and heroics they have come up with.<br /> <br />As they settle down from this content creation and fix most the bugs in that. Then.... Then they can focus on what is broke just like every other expansion. Trying to equal the classes across the board is difficult no matter what, they take our suggestions and even with all this new content going on, they are fixing this stuff.<br />I appreciate Mogrim's posts because they are clear and are getting attention.<br />Not bashing you at all, just don't understand how you can say they don't "care".

Mogrim
10-31-2014, 07:36 PM
1) I know they care. Often it is not a question if if they agree things should be changed or not and more a question of "can we get this done in time for the expansion or not?"<br />2) That said, I still think we need a few things in this/wizard/warlock/chanter threads looked at

Bloodguts
11-02-2014, 07:19 PM
that's just asking too much considering how high sorcs parse atm

Laserbeak
11-06-2014, 12:13 AM
Should've seen the parses on beta after scout got thier changes... you wouldn't be so quick to talk now. Ranger auto attacking and outparsing mages with JUST auto attack. lol.. Buffrats hemo poisons doing 6-9million... yeahhhh

Iseous
11-06-2014, 12:24 AM
Well they are going to reduce the effectiveness of Practiced procs, so if your scouts had all the WDB Practiced effects then I'd imagine the parses will go down. Although if the mages also had a bunch of Practiced effects to even it out, then as the Scout thread discusses, auto-attack needs to be toned down and CA's need a boost so at least it's not just AFK DPS.

Mogrim
11-06-2014, 07:54 AM
1) Scouts have long said that practiced items helped mages more, because 1.5 of the practiced buffs were potency, which barely helped them, 1.5 were crit bonus which helped us both, and 1 was weapon damage which helped them more, but that the combined effect was that mages benefited more. Therefore, if scouts were correct, any reduction to practiced procs hurts mages more.<br />2) That said, I think mages will be mostly fine, hopefully. I'd love for our right endline to also trigger procs... but it is what it is.

Iseous
11-06-2014, 04:31 PM
True, they probably help mages more, but I meant as far as the distribution of these procs between the groups. If the scouts were full of these procs (WDB specifically to increase auto so much) while the mages had fewer, then that would account for the huge difference between parses.

Cleaner
11-07-2014, 07:12 PM
hmm heroic beta group warlock 4.6mil, Mystic 9.8mil, /facepalm.