Who makes the "best" tank? Paladin or Guardian?

[Anthon]

<DIV>Who makes the best tank?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best armor. Best Hate getting skills.</DIV>

[Kryn]

Guardian.- Krynos

[Jezekie]

This was debated quite alot in beta, and the endconclusion IMO is that they are more or less the same, with guardians having a bit more to work with when taking arggo.

[PobbleOgreba]

<DIV>Guardian's get better and bigger shields and thicker Armor. I am thinking a paldin would be cooler with a lower level healer in the group.</DIV>

[Fable_E]

<DIV>Guardians and Palidan's have the same high end armors (Vangaurd Plate) and im assuming Pally shields don't run that far behind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The real difference is from 20-50 a Gaurdian will gain naturally 90 more STA which should equate to roughly 300+ HPs difference (I never saw over 30th level mind you so im not sure if that changes).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Add to that the abilities that allow a Guardian to act more like a true brick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pallys can tank... they will be in some situations preferred...  its a matter of taste is all.</DIV>

[Rynga]

<DIV>I'm having the problem of trying to decide between Paladin and Guardian... I keep having EQ1 class differences seep through and its tainting my choice. LOL What to do, what to do. I guess there will be a Pro/Con list on some of the fansites within the next day or two so I'll have to do some research.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone have any Beta exp that could give me any help in trying to decide between Guardian and Paladin? I had a level 13 Crusader and level 11 Warrior in Beta and they weren't high enough to have much difference really.</DIV>

[Jezekie]

<blockquote><hr>Ryngard wrote:<DIV> I keep having EQ1 class differences seep through and its tainting my choice</DIV><hr></blockquote>Don't, because they are meant to tank more or less the same. And they do IMO at the 25-30 game.

[trem]

<DIV>The DEVs have stated that not one fighting class will be able to tank more effectively then another. They don't want another EQL experience...</DIV>

[silverly]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> trem0r wrote:<BR> <DIV>The DEVs have stated that not one fighting class will be able to tank more effectively then another. They don't want another EQL experience...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> That is indeed what they have stated...but what they are aiming for and what they acheive may not be the same thing.  Its still too early for me to make any decision on the original post...but it seems to me that the guardian using his various "guard" style skills (sentinel, allay, etc) on a paladin main tank could be a pretty powerful combo.  Time will tell.

[Schultz]

<DIV>paladin I dont believe was truely meant for the big meat shield tank, so I'd say guardian</DIV>

[PsychoZi]

<DIV>It is kinda implied in the name of the class. And as far as I know a pally usally was more meant to beat the undeads.</DIV>

[Eorendil]

Some of the tanking from different fighter classes is situational in nature. Supposedly while all Fighter classes should be able to tank equally well they do it in much different ways in some cases.

[bjo]

<DIV>gaurdian</DIV>

[Anjins]

<DIV>I played boths in beta  ,my experience is that is much easier to solo with a paladin, because they can heal him self . (sr bad english)  In goup the guardian is better maintank and the paladin is good to assist  and in the worst case to help him survive .</DIV> <DIV>The only limit is than when u run out off power but in the most cases u live longer than the guardian who has  the most agro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Aurorelle]

<DIV>Whilst they claim all fighters can tank equally well, that did not actually work for brawlers. In my view if you are determined to be an MT then guardian is the 'safe' choice. At the end game the other classes *might* tank as well, or they might not, but the guardian is defined as the archetypal tank, so it should be a safe bet that if anyone can tank, she can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aurore</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Woodpi]

<DIV>This one is easy from a healers point of view. The Guardian is the king of agro and protection. His/her job is to protect the weaker classes. He/she can protect you from damage by taking the hits for you or by parrying your incoming blows. He/she can also instantly take the agro with skills like Rescue. This skill puts him/her one point above everyone else on the monsters agro list even if they just entered the battle. If you want to be a healers best friend the the Guardian is your class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>               The Woodpile</DIV>

[Troy Spir]

If some other fighter class ends up being "able to tank" as well as guardian, the whole class theme is under question. Its defined in the class description, basicly as "the meat sheild". If pallys (or sks for that matter) can do this role "as well" then we all should blowtorch the SoE offices. That would mean that they can do "the guardians job" just as well, plus have all their extra nifty utility stuff, that supposedly, the guardian is "giving up" in favor of more meatshield - protective stuff.

[Kall]

<DIV>Everyone I know from EQ2 Beta who got a 30+ character told me all the classes were sub-par to Guardians when it came to tanking power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And that's what people need fighters for =p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Abingot]

<DIV>I'm not sayin the Pallys/Sk's can tank as well....but...if they could it would be 'because' of all their nifty spells, not in addition to it.  Guardians tank one way, then tank another.  The goal was to have them all be able to tank equally well, but to do in in different ways.  So I wouldn't feel like blow torchin SoE over that particular issue :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Troy Spir]

Yep if that turns out to be true we should all go SK or Pally.They should not, no way , no how , via their spells or skills be able to play the meatsheild roll as well as guardians. Guardians "Theme" is meatsheild. Meanwhile SKs and Pallys have secondary themes such as team memeber healing, mob life drain ect which we do not. Our "theme" is meatsheild, their theme is 2/3rds meatsheild 1/3d cleric(pally) and 2/3s meatshield 1/3d Necro (SK). If their tanking (with spells or otherwise) "just as good" as guardians we should just all delete our guardians and go may a pally or sk , then we will be able to tank, and spot heal, or tank and spot debuff/dot. Rather than just being "pure tanks" and wondering how we got screwed so hard.

[Kedl]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Troy Spira said "their theme is 2/3rds meatsheild 1/3d cleric(pally)and 2/3s meatshield 1/3d Necro (SK)"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>No where do I ever recall this being used as the description for either of these classes in EQ 2.  Some of you need to realise this is not EQ Live.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>ALL fighter classes are supposed to fill the tanking / meat shield roll.  Not Equally, but differently.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>If it turns out that end game one is the end all be all of tanks......don't be to surprised if things get tweaked to shift that to more even footing.  It was said many times they do not want only certain classes to be the most desierable in ALL situations.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>New game.  New way of looking at things.  New way of doing things.  New stratgies.  New Fun.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Share and be happy.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Ginerian<BR>lvl 20 Paladin<BR>Unrest</DIV></FONT>

[RioR]

<DIV>Correct, this is not EQlive. Forget what you have learn from that game. This is an all new game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE stated many times that all fighters will be able to fill their role equally well in a group. Well a fighter's role is to "tank". So if all fighters can not tank equally well, then SOE has some work to do to fix the problem. This game has just started. Expect them to be tweaking the classes here and there to try and balance things out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If one class ends up to be slightly better than the other, that is fine. You can not make the game perfect. Just as long as there is not a large enough gap in tanking abilities where one class will always be prefered over the other. If this happens then SOE has failed to meet their goal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck to all the fighters. Let's hope SOE gets things right in this game and no one has a nerfed useless class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pla]

Paladins make just fine tanks, but different than Defenders and not optimim in all circumstances.While a defender has better skills for achieving agro and such, a paladin is still able to do it, just maybe not as well in all cases. A paladin is able to heal and ward themselves, but while they are casting those spells the defender is casting taunts. I have found it is easier to maintain solid agro on multiple mobs and adds with a defender but that does not mean it cant be done by a paladin who understands their class well...which is what it all boils down to who understands thier true role in a group and how to play it.If there were a dummy proof class to tank, that would be the shame. In certain situations any tank may work as well as another, or one may be better than the other, but a good player will always be more desired than one who does not learn to work within their group. If you are a monk and are able to work with your group and do things that a beserker / Defender / Pally / SK have trouble with then that is what makes it fun.I have found in beta and and now in live that if you get to working with a core group of people 6-12 that you group with alot, you will learn each other's styles and tendacies. As you mesh and become a team you will really pull some cool stuff off. I have been a paladin, and I have been a defender, in both cases my core group always preferred me tanking for them no matter the class because we worked well together and were able to achieve alot of things.So long post made short, the best tank is the person who takes the time to learn their abilities, pays attention to the gear they have, and works well within their group.

[carych]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Troy Spiral wrote:<BR>If some other fighter class ends up being "able to tank" as well as guardian, the whole class theme is under question. Its defined in the class description, basicly as "the meat sheild". If pallys (or sks for that matter) can do this role "as well" then we all should blowtorch the SoE offices. That would mean that they can do "the guardians job" just as well, plus have all their extra nifty utility stuff, that supposedly, the guardian is "giving up" in favor of more meatshield - protective stuff.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>As other people have already pointed out, you are still thinking in EQL terms, and are completely wrong.  A paladin is NOT a hybrid, and they are not part cleric.  They are every bit as much fighter as a guardian.  I expect that when both are available guardians will usually end up being raid tanks due to the edge they have in max hp, but I also expect that a well geared paladin will tank much better than a mediocre geared guardian.</P> <P>What exactly utility do we as guardians give up?  Compared to EQL, we took defensive and hps buffs that paladins had, and manifested some new abilities like a group attack buff.  But even saying that is ridiculous.  This is not EQL and should not be compared directly to it.  It is a NEW game that uses the same game world and happens to use some of the same class names, even though those classes are completely different.</P> <P>Let me say it again.  This is NOT EQL.  Paladins are NOT a hybrid.  Certain classes may have an edge in certain situations, but we are both fighters, and we should both be on the front lines.</P>

[jyoung2k]

<DIV>Guardian by a distance, better shields, range slot with stats, higher mitigation and larger selection of weapons, more taunts that use less power. I played a SK to 31 in beta and no way am I trudging that path again, pally is a bit bit better cause you can heal.. but that would require living in .. ugh qeynos.</DIV>

[DRobster]

<DIV>Personally speaking, I think the intention was for all fighting classes to be able to tank in any situation.  Does that mean that one may be a bit better than the others?  Yes, I think so, but it still allows you to go out and play even if you cannot pick up a guadian (or whatever class you are lacking).  Same goes for healing and everything else.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back in EQL, you'd go to a high end zone and if you didn't have a warrior or cleric, you pretty much sat around looking for those before you could even play.  With this system, you can go ahead and get out there and not waste time sitting around waiting for the missing crucial class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still, yes, there is most likely a "better" choice for whatever situation you're in.  If this wasn't true, then there would be no need of all the different class choices.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In summary, a guardian may be the better tank in a lot of situations, but that does not mean you cant be successful with other types of fighters as "tanks" as opposed to the EQL way of "no warrior = no tank = dont fight yet = waste a lot of time".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Carrick </DIV> <DIV>Guardian to be on Innothule</DIV>

[Falc410]

Paladin is no tank in EQ2. I'm only a supporter class. I have some spells but most of them don't work on myself. I can buff AC but only on other group members (MT that is) and I have a spell to transfer my AC to the MT. That gives the MT (mostly Guardian) much more AC and leaves me gimped with little AC (so little if I actually get aggro I'm beat like a pulp...make that caster).So Paladin's are uselss as tank, their only purpose is to support the maintank. Sucks imho as I thought I could tank a little, but I haven't tanked a single mob since I hit lvl 20.

[Kedl]

<DIV><SPAN>Falc410</SPAN> wrote "Paladin is no tank in EQ2" "I haven't tanked a single mob since I hit lvl 20"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You must be doing something wrong then.  Either you need new gear or need to use your spells a tad better.  Im a lvl 22 paladin and I tank fine.  I played till lvl 30 as a paladin in beta, and I tanked fine.  Only time I wasnt MT was when there was a higher level tank in the gorup or one that was better geared.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just because we have a few abilities that make us usefull as support class, doesnt mean thats all we can do.  Those  spells / abilites are there for when we are the lower level tank in the group, when the healer or caster grabs aggro and you cant get it off them etc...  Guardians have some abilties like these as well.  To back up another tank or use on a healer.  It would suck to be the second tank in the group and not be able to offer the group at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 20 the mobs seem to get alot harder, and having heavy armour on makes a huge difference in our ability to take hits, as does the use of a shield.  Start doing your armour quests if you havent, or buy some player made or store armour to help your AC out.  When you are main tank use Knights Stance to further boost your defence.  Use Vigor of Trust for extra HP, or use Redemption for extra aggro.  Use  Toughness, Heals, Wards, and LoH in a pinch to buy the healers time if needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins might not be the very best tank in ever situation, however we bring alot to the table for Tanking and Support.  You have to know when to use what, based on the encounter, group make up, and what colour undies you have on that day.  A paladin that uses heals wards and LoH at the right times can really push his life span in a tough fight, even coming back from the brink of death when all seems lost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each tank type has thier own flavour, thier own strengths and must know what to use and when to use it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladin's skill is Determined Faith for a reason.  Have faith in your abilities, use them well and other will have faith in you.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kedlar on <span class=date_text>11-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Falc410]

It's not that I can't tank, it's that the group decides that they need a guardian as tank. And then my job is just using Offering of Arnament and assisting. Nothing else. I rarely have groups where I am the tank. If there is a guardian around he will always be the MT.

[Troy Spir]

"The dont think like EQ1 or EQLive" comments: Its true, and has been true since even before beta started (generaly) BUT, the core concepts in EQ2 are nearly all carried over from EQ1 (and the MUDs that EQ is decended from). I've been around the EQ2 block long enough to know there is not a 1 for 1 corrilation between the class archtypes of EQ1 and EQ2. I do tend to "talk in eq 1 terms" a bit, but , my above comments are all correct. Pallys do have "cleric like" ablities , that Guardians dont, and SKS do have "Necro Like" (granted what "necro like" means could be debated for ages..yawn) ablities. Despite there not being a 1 to 1 comparision with these terms from EQ1. I think people just enjoy trying to prove how smart they are by pointing out some sub-point , as if they are the keeper of secrets who as come down from on high to bless us with their divine understanding of the game.Anyhow back to the point of this thread:Yes its true SKs and Pallys will be "closer" to Guardians in tanking ablities than SKs and Pallys were to Warriors in EQ1. Or at least thats the consensus theory from the majority of people i trust to make unbiased comments on such matters. Most of the "SKS and Guardians and Pallys can all tank just as well" people i feel are just misguided. Maybe if you replaced "just as well" with "almost as well" that'd work a little better. Also i can only assume that this "small edge" in tanking that guardians have, will increase as the uber fatty raid mobs become more of an issue. If not, **ZOMG** guardians. If we have to wear the **ZOMG**ty looking armor we better be able to tank better, if not somone tell me why anyone would bother with a guardian if SKs or Pallys can tank "just as well" and they get the coolio looking armor too. =D

[Shakir10]

<DIV>To answer the origional question, yes, Guardian is better by what most people have described as a very minor margin.. Where Pallys get the extra support spells/abilities, Guardians get the few extra Defensive abilities which puts them Just over Pallys.. But I don't want in any way to put Pallys down.  I was a guardian in beta and am doing the same again now, and every time I grouped with a Paladin I found they had no trouble what so ever tanking just fine. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest, the only times when I could see a real tangible difference was that the pally power went down faster than mine trying to hold agro... but maybe that was just the person palaying the pally at the time, eh. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think they are both great tanks. Should definately go with what fits your personality best, cause they are both good.</DIV>

[hk_sta]

<DIV>error</FONT></DIV> <DIV>   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by hk_starm on <span class=date_text>11-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:20 PM</span>

[hk_sta]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>error</DIV><p>Message Edited by hk_starm on <span class=date_text>11-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:21 PM</span>

[hk_sta]

<DIV>I do think the best tank(s) will be Guardian + Pally @ high lv raid</DIV> <DIV>& they need to do something like ALLY Tanking</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=2OcuAe size=2>             / P</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=2OcuAe size=2>B >>> G </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=2OcuAe size=2>              P</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=2OcuAe size=2>B : Boss</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=2OcuAe size=2>G : Guardian</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=2OcuAe size=2>P : Paladin # 1 & # 2</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=2OcuAe size=2>>>>: Attack from Boss</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>/ & : Paladin's skill e.g. Unwavering Faith / Aegis of Hope .. etc</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>p.s. above is just my dreaming, but I do hope to see this happen</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=2OcuAe size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by hk_starm on <span class=date_text>11-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:21 PM</span>

[Shiz]

Paladins/SK's and Berserkers aren't going to be the main tanks, and they shouldn't. Simply because those 3 classes outdamage Guardians in battle, so the most obvious thing Guardians can do better than them will be defense. Higher HP and AC and less damage output are what they are all about. If you notice Berserkers and Paladins/SK's get tons of offensive skills as opposed the the Guardian getting lots of group buff, defense, and aggro related skills. All of them weren't meant to be tanks although some high-end gear will allow Berserkers and Paladins/SK's to take a good deal of damage. In the end game after lvl 40+ we'll really get to see the Guardians shine when it comes to tanking. Berserkers and Paladins/SK's will play more or less "support" roles in the raid offtanking adds, etc...just like they did in EQ1. If all 3 classes could tank then the Guardian would be getting ripped, as they can't deal out as much damage as a Berserker/Paladin/SK can.<p>Message Edited by Shizno on <span class=date_text>11-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:00 AM</span>

[Kyd]

<DIV>From what I have seen from personal experience and from overlooking skill lists, Guardians take damage and have more defensive skills. Paladins have by far greater taunts and group saving abilities. Just compare the two lists and watch the two in combat, it's pretty easy to see which is better at what.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as which is better at tanking? Honestly there is not much difference since the guardian takes less damage and the paladin can help rune and heal himself.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kyder on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 PM</span>