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Maergoth

10-23-2012, 12:14 AM

Alright, lets do this! UPDATED. RED NEEDS ATTENTION.First of all, the length of the trees are too long. It literally boils down to "Left or Right", which is totally lame. Removing the link between the old trees and the new ones would make me actually excited about these prestiges, no matter how the specific abilties turn out.I just don't see why they should be linked at all. It just removes the ability to experiment with the new trees without discarding the prestige tree you actually liked. If I could change ANYTHING about this beta, unlinking the new and old prestige trees would be it.Now, for the actual prestige abilities, Middle first:Zealous Defender -Each Point (3 max) Increases the HP gain per stamina by .3After testing: This provides a lot of health. Boring or not, it's definitely worth it for someone building strictly defensive. Zealous Power - Consecrate ticks for 1.5% max power and doesn't cancel at zero.After testing: This was changed. Theoretically, this is a much better power tool. Maybe a little less powerful, but a lot less situational. Onto the left side!Faith - 3s immunity to all damage, reflects damage taken. 2:30 base recast.After testing: This was changed. With the modifications to the "add-on" prestiges, this ability shifted to an acceptable defensive tool. The damage is icing on the cake.Faith's Aura - Small amount of reflect propagates to the group (8/16/24%) After testing: This was changed. As a group wide reflect, this ability has some usage. Probably worth taking over the HP bonus. Will do some testing, but it looks alright. Further testing reveals a lack of application range. This is a huge problem for an ability that a tank is casting and should probably be addressed.Faithful Retaliation - 30/60/90% of the reflect damage is granted to the group as a 3 trigger proc.After testing: This was changed. These numbers are roughly 4x as good. Further testing reveals a lack of application range. This is a huge problem for an ability that a tank is casting and should probably be addressed.Divine Faith - Reduces base cast time to .5 seconds (3 ranks is instant) Increases the duration by 33% (4s), After testing: This was changed. The additional duration is exactly what this needed. Unyielding Faith - Increases duration of Stonewall by 4 seconds. After testing: Unchanged, and that's just fine.And now onto the right side!Divine Territory - Every attack you build charges. Can detonate charges for self haste / dps buff and AOE damage. After testing: This was changed. This ability is pretty much balanced. The low cooldown may make it seem overpowered in a sustained setting, but since most adds live less than 30 seconds, you have to use a smaller sample size. In a small sample size, it performs as it should. Divinity's Infusion - Each attack grants one additional charge. After testing: This wasn't changed. Hopefully Divine Territory and the alternative are up to par now.For Justice - Increases or decreases the paladin's threat by a percentage of their outgoing damage.After testing: This was completely redone. I like the idea a lot more than the last one. The dehate is more impressive than the hate gain, but my only concern is this: The effectiveness of the ability fluctuates with charges. I don't feel like this was taken into account. The numbers are sound IF you had max charges the whole time. I feel like they're a little low for the reality: an average of 30 charges.Aura of Justice - Group health is increased based on number of incrementsAfter Testing: Good enough. Especially since paladins are really low in the max HP department lately. Harbinger of Justice - Grants a powerful single target alternative to Divine Territory.After testing: I find the damage on this ability to be appropriate. Additionally, I still believe it should be switched with the AOE in some fashion. Mostly because you'd be able to take one rank of it by splitting trees and focusing defensive, which would be much more effective while main tanking than the AOE. The AoE is just much more situational.. and situational should be the alternative. With all of that said and done, we're still severely lacking in snap capability. I know that's intended because something about sustained aggro, psh. But I was really hoping for something. If the one part of Faith's reflect damage proc is substantial, maybe we'll actually contribute something to a group now, solving that problem as well.And that's all. Not exactly sure what all I'll be taking, but the ideas are unique and cool. The balance is in the specifics, and most of them are on the right track. I'll move this thread over to live and contribute to it as I get to play around with them in practice.Left side is green and good to go, Right side is red and needs attention! There's your feedback.

Fyang

10-23-2012, 02:07 AM

Faith seems cant be modified by reuse. Dont figure out what reuse by 3 point on it.

Maergoth

10-23-2012, 02:25 AM

I figured as much. Definitely lame, but understandable. I hope it goes down to a minute thirty or a minute fifteen. At least that way it's up for every other round of AOEs and not every third or fourth round.

Vash854

10-23-2012, 04:37 AM

Ok let me clarify the problem with this post first, Faith is not modifiable EXCEPT by the prestige points, by putting 3 points into it, the reuse is 1:15 (75s), which is not bad, same thing with the points that modify cast, its 0.75, which is just a tad long, 1-2pts to make it 0.25-0.5 which is good enough, 3 makes it insta, but I don't think thats needed, I like this ability a lot.The hp increase is basically 1 extra hp per sta with 3 points into it, so basically you get extra hp based on how much sta you have (5k sta = 5k hp extra), so this will scale with gear, doesn't seem too terrible.I agree with the 8% reflect (or 24% with 3 pts) being a bit strange, it's not particularly useful I think, it should be something diffrent, right now I don't have any specific suggestions, maybe make it raidwide for priests (might be a tad OP), or maybe each point should increase the duration a tad, 0.3-0.5 per pt would be ok I think.The 4s on stonewall is nice, although I think it should also remove the shield requirement, I know this sounds strange but it's very annoying to lose a save because you use a 2h, SKs don't get this handicap because their temp is reposte/parry, just a random suggestion.As to the power one, I kinda agree with maergoth, being an active thing would make it a bit more useful, it can also be a group utility thing, which would be nice I think, or maybe you know what? A spell combat mastery everyone used to talk about so much, or perhaps an encounter snap some of us think would be useful!Okay let me step away from all this wishful thinking, better not get my hopes up too much with soe giving paladins uber utility. As for the dps side, the dps/haste buff is pretty pathetic, as far as I noticed it stacks up to 6 times, which makes it 12 of each, or 24 with 3 points into aura of justice, it should be at least groupwide with those sad numbers.The end, pls reply.

DeathMagus

10-23-2012, 08:48 AM

<cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>1.Faith - 3s immunity to all damage, reflects damage taken. 2:30 base recast. Well, this is cool. Maybe. I can't test it out yet, but in theory, this is one of the things paladins have been needing for a long time MIXED with the coolest thing ever: Reflecting stuff like a boss. The duration is low, which is fine. I just wonder to what extent it can be modified, if at all. Regardless, this one I have a hard time scrutinizing. Neato....Faithful Retaliation - Damage proc granted to group based on amount reflected. One trigger, every cast of Faith. Sweet. The idea is cool, but the numbers themselves have to pan out. The damage needs to be high.. like, really high. Or have multiple triggers. And the application radius needs to be huge, so I can joust in front of the mob, take the damage and not have to run back into the group before it wears off. This has potential, but it just seems like something that just wouldn't do enough damage. Prove me wrong!...Divine Faith - Reduces base cast time to .5 seconds (3 ranks), This ability makes me think the base cast and reuse are completely unmodifiable. If that's the case, then cast speed is definitely not the concerning part about it. The reuse speed of this ability is the crux of whether or not it's useful. It needs to be up often enough to use it optimally. With such a short duration, you won't be able to use it to span multiple AOEs like with Legionnaire's Conviction. You need to be precise, and even with max points into the Faith skill itself, the reuse would probably be too high. Anything over a minute and thirty seconds is just too high. The cast speed reduction should be further reuse reduction, or something in addition to the cast speed.</blockquote>This ability sounds like it's going to be the love child of Legionnaire's Conviction, Perfect Counter and Gut Roar with the Perfect Counter portion being an individual grpwide trigger. Since a 3 second duration works fine for Gut Roar then it should be fine here as well. And with the dmg potential from LC (pre nerf) and PC being high so long as the dmg is based off of pre-mitigation dmg values and are modifiable I see this ability doing absurd dmg on certain encounters so long as it is utilized well. Horribly timed charms may lead to you slaughtering raid members from time to time though.Think of it this way... if you eat a red text with this that does 600k+ pre-mitigation then you're going to return a couple nasty blows to the mob. You'll simply have to be able to time that ability... However, I doubt that would be difficult for a competent player since Zerkers do it with Gut Roar. As far as the reuse goes... it looks fine to me with the potential this ability has.

Cyrdemac

10-23-2012, 09:40 AM

Zealous DefenderAdding 3 Points in it (passive increase of health gained from stamina by 102) increased my hitpoints by 5k from 61k to 66kFaith3 Points spend lowers recast down to 1 min 15 sec, so its nice. But 3 sec duration? Gotta have to time incoming AEs pretty good.Divine Faith3 points spend lower the cast time to zero, so its making it instant -> niceDivine TerritoryAs Maergoth pinted out: cool idea, but lacks the damage imo. Even with full stacks of increments, its unmodified by pot, crit or cb and hits for 5-6k per target..very lame in its current state.Up the recast and let it be modified by our stats. Also 6 targets only is a bit low, why not 8 like our other AEs at least?Also blocking the cross spec to put at least one point in Smite Infidel but using entire tanking line (left side) is kinda weird. Now you have to put another 6 points into the first abilities just to be able to pick Smite Infidel too. So its a totally either or choice. And switching to recklessness (in tanking prestige setup) without changing the entire prestige setup is not effective.

Maergoth

10-23-2012, 01:59 PM

Edited the OP to reflect some of that info. Still not copied so yeah. We're talking theory here.I don't really see why the cast speed is unmodifiable. I'd increase the cast speed AND reuse speed with more points in the skill itself, and replace the cast speed thing with something else.A spell version of combat mastery would be awesome, except it would pigeonhole us into the mage group. I like this reflect idea better, assuming the damage is good. If the reflect damage is similar to that of LC, then I highly doubt it will be. However, this is the tank line, not the DPS line.The damage on this stuff needs to be modifiable to some extent. Otherwise it will fall further and further behind in effectiveness and people will just take the better gains, regardless of cool mechanics.And Eridion, stop being a scrub and macro your shield into your stonewall button!

Vash854

10-23-2012, 07:54 PM

I have to put on my 1h, then wait like 4-5s to be able to put on my shield and then I can use stonewall and switch back to 2h, it's extra annoying and I'm not gonna do it tbh, they need to make it parry/riposte or take away shield requirement.

Cyrdemac

10-23-2012, 08:30 PM

<cite>Vash854 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to put on my 1h, then wait like 4-5s to be able to put on my shield and then I can use stonewall and switch back to 2h, it's extra annoying and I'm not gonna do it tbh, they need to make it parry/riposte or take away shield requirement.</blockquote>How about switching to shield FIRST?

Maergoth

10-24-2012, 02:08 AM

<cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vash854 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to put on my 1h, then wait like 4-5s to be able to put on my shield and then I can use stonewall and switch back to 2h, it's extra annoying and I'm not gonna do it tbh, they need to make it parry/riposte or take away shield requirement.</blockquote>How about switching to shield FIRST?</blockquote>Lol'd. Duh. It's 2 seconds to put a sword on after shield. If that 2 seconds worth of not dpsing isn't worth it to you, then don't use a two hander. I never need to use stonewall for anything I use a 2 hander on anyway.In fact, you can put your shield on, pop stonewall, then 2 seconds later put a 2 hander on, and stonewall will still function.

Boli32

10-24-2012, 08:07 AM

Not had chance to look at this yet (busy @ work); but one thing is worrying me; the flexibility the previous prestiges offered seems to be lacking; e.g. everyone is talking about being "locked" to one side.Previously we could spec:3 ranks in Arbiter of Justice3 ranks in Salwart Auraand BOTH Smite Infidel AND Divine Knight's Armour would be unlocked allowing us to place points down one side (to the endline) or to have a more balanced approach and spec both sides.Is this still the case?... or do we *have* to spec:3 ranks in Faithful Protection3 ranks in Salwart AuraTo unlock Divine Knight's armour?On Faith:Paladins have always suffered from having a reliable save up on a short duration; we now have a Stoneskin on Lay On Hands and Damage reduction on Sacrament; BUT why the long recast on Faith? 2m30s is a eternity in a raid fight; especially for such a short duation (3s)If this recast was done as it would be thought of as "too powerful" due to the reflect componant well from the testing done by others I think you have failed so either the damage needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY increased or the entire reflect portion removed entirely.You made a mistake with Legionaires Conviction, first making it too powerful and then slapping on a "cannot be modified by anything" making the damage worthless; tbh BOTH abilities should be modifible BUT instead of the percentage based and "not modified by a single thing"; simply add some damage triggers on; either as a damage shield or a damage proc. With crit, and potency they can be relatively tiny but still do more damage than the spell in its current incarnation.I am concerned with the Faith's Aura part; if anything the damage reduction givein to the priests should be MORE than what is given to the Paladin; afterall most of the time they will be able to survive AoEs much less easily than the tank; what is wrong with providing the full benefits to the priests that are given to the palaidn?... it is a TINY duration and obviously designed to deal with AoEs; with its current recast it will not be up every time so it is not as if it can be abused.Hopefully I'll be able to get on and test some ot this out nearer to the weekend but those are my initial concerns right now.

DeathMagus

10-24-2012, 03:19 PM

<cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote>Faith3 Points spend lowers recast down to 1 min 15 sec, so its nice. But 3 sec duration? Gotta have to time incoming AEs pretty good.</blockquote>Zerker do it fine with Gut Roar.. so I don't see an issue with it tbh. It basically just means people will have to do what was that thing again..? Oh yeah... PAY ATTENTION.

DeathMagus

10-24-2012, 03:23 PM

<cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>... If the reflect damage is similar to that of LC, then I highly doubt it will be. However, this is the tank line, not the DPS line. </blockquote>In the heroic tree for warriors the defensive endline was a stoneskin/reflect essentially... This ability is following similar principles. I'd not complain about your new defensive ability (a stoneskin) also being viable in some encounters as a means for dealing a bit of extra damage.

DeathMagus

10-24-2012, 03:26 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>... Paladins have always suffered from having a reliable save up on a short duration; we now have a Stoneskin on Lay On Hands and Damage reduction on Sacrament; BUT why the long recast on Faith? 2m30s is a eternity in a raid fight; especially for such a short duation (3s)If this recast was done as it would be thought of as "too powerful" due to the reflect componant well from the testing done by others I think you have failed so either the damage needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY increased or the entire reflect portion removed entirely.</blockquote>The reuse on Faith is lowered to 1m15s with 3 points into the ability.

Maergoth

10-24-2012, 03:51 PM

<cite>DeathMagus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>... If the reflect damage is similar to that of LC, then I highly doubt it will be. However, this is the tank line, not the DPS line. </blockquote>In the heroic tree for warriors the defensive endline was a stoneskin/reflect essentially... This ability is following similar principles. I'd not complain about your new defensive ability (a stoneskin) also being viable in some encounters as a means for dealing a bit of extra damage. </blockquote>I'm glad you've determined which feedback I should or shouldn't provide. Thank you.As a defensive ability, it's fine. The idea of a reflect, however, implies there is to be some damage gained. Right now, that damage is so incredibly small that it's almost not noticeable.Which is fine. Whatever.My complaint is with the secondary ability which applies the damage as a group buff. THAT is solely intended to be a DPS ability, and it is simply not noticeable.Even if it did 100k damage, it would only net 1300 DPS. When our scouts and mages are literally doing between 500k and 1mil dps, you're talking ~0.3% of their parse. That is so small, no one will care. No one is going to say " Golly Gee, there's a paladin in our group. I can't wait to do 1300 more DPS." And that is a gracious number. That's IF you use it EVERY TIME it comes up immediately. There won't be an AOE incoming at that time.Realistically, neither of the abilities have any remotely reasonable damage output. They would both need to do more than 10 times what they do now, probably closer to 20 to even show up on the parse.Does the primary ability need that? No. The group buff? Yes.

Cyrdemac

10-24-2012, 09:49 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Previously we could spec:3 ranks in Arbiter of Justice3 ranks in Salwart Auraand BOTH Smite Infidel AND Divine Knight's Armour would be unlocked allowing us to place points down one side (to the endline) or to have a more balanced approach and spec both sides.Is this still the case?... or do we *have* to spec:3 ranks in Faithful Protection3 ranks in Salwart AuraTo unlock Divine Knight's armour?</blockquote>You can still spend 6 points as you mentioned above, but you must choose between Smite Infidel OR Divine Knights Armor. If you want to get the other one too, you have to spend another 6 points in those starter skills.Smite Infidel and Divine Knights Armor each need 6 points spend in those abilities, so 12 for both <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

Maergoth

10-24-2012, 10:52 PM

The irony in the 6 point penalty for splitting trees is that, even with the penalty in place, it's better to split trees.I don't know why they don't simply split the old trees and the new ones.

Maergoth

10-25-2012, 02:35 AM

So.. yeah. Reckless, obviously.<img src="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Maergoth/Dummy.png" width="687" height="896" />Still not worth going down the entire tree. So much defensive stuff lost to gain 10-15% more DPS and zero utility.Also, what the heck is with Marr's Fury doing so little DPS? It shows that it does 7000-8500 damage in the buff window, but it hit for an average of 1200 on the dummy? Is it displaying modified damage but not dealing modified damage or what?

NANEEJE

10-25-2012, 03:07 AM

DIVINE TERRITORY!!!Dev's, if you read this far, please refer to the OP on Divine Territory, the suggestion needs to happen. This ability is way under what I would expect from my prestige line, just check out what he wrote!!! piggyback that suggestion I do!

DeathMagus

10-25-2012, 05:58 AM

<cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DeathMagus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>... If the reflect damage is similar to that of LC, then I highly doubt it will be. However, this is the tank line, not the DPS line. </blockquote>In the heroic tree for warriors the defensive endline was a stoneskin/reflect essentially... This ability is following similar principles. I'd not complain about your new defensive ability (a stoneskin) also being viable in some encounters as a means for dealing a bit of extra damage. </blockquote>I'm glad you've determined which feedback I should or shouldn't provide. Thank you.As a defensive ability, it's fine. The idea of a reflect, however, implies there is to be some damage gained. Right now, that damage is so incredibly small that it's almost not noticeable.Which is fine. Whatever.My complaint is with the secondary ability which applies the damage as a group buff. THAT is solely intended to be a DPS ability, and it is simply not noticeable.Even if it did 100k damage, it would only net 1300 DPS. When our scouts and mages are literally doing between 500k and 1mil dps, you're talking ~0.3% of their parse. That is so small, no one will care. No one is going to say " Golly Gee, there's a paladin in our group. I can't wait to do 1300 more DPS." And that is a gracious number. That's IF you use it EVERY TIME it comes up immediately. There won't be an AOE incoming at that time.Realistically, neither of the abilities have any remotely reasonable damage output. They would both need to do more than 10 times what they do now, probably closer to 20 to even show up on the parse.Does the primary ability need that? No. The group buff? Yes.</blockquote>First off... You're welcome. Second... Have you actually tested the ability in Beta by reflecting a Red text ability or a DT yet? If not I'd start with something easy to get to like the drake in Sev x4. Just wait for the mob to do Vicious Bite and try reflecting it. Third... If the only real viable complaints about the ability relate to the dmg output then why not ask for something instead of the dmg output as an alternative to simply increasing it?Also... I did say a bit of extra damage... I don't have a geared lvl 95 pally on beta to go test how the dmg portion was actually implemented.

Maergoth

10-25-2012, 03:42 PM

<cite>DeathMagus wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off... You're welcome. Second... Have you actually tested the ability in Beta by reflecting a Red text ability or a DT yet? If not I'd start with something easy to get to like the drake in Sev x4. Just wait for the mob to do Vicious Bite and try reflecting it. Third... If the only real viable complaints about the ability relate to the dmg output then why not ask for something instead of the dmg output as an alternative to simply increasing it?Also... I did say a bit of extra damage... I don't have a geared lvl 95 pally on beta to go test how the dmg portion was actually implemented. </blockquote>There are quite a few problems with everything you just said. For one, red text failure conditions in hard content apply incurable, ticking effects that span well over a 3 second window. Meaning, as soon as immunity wears off.. bam. Dead.Additionally, If you've done any real content this expansion, you'd know death touches apply in 2 parts. The first major damage infliction, and a follow up max health hit 6 seconds later. This means we CAN'T even block an entire deathtouch with it.Even with neither of those things being true, this ability reflects in the same fashion as Legionnaire's conviction. Completely unmodifiable damage. Saying that I haven't tested it, which I have, doesn't mean I can't infer it's usefulness after using an extremely similar ability for the past 2 years.In an ideal situation, you'd be able to use this ability to span 2 effects.. the end of a death touch and an AOE lining up at the same time. (Assuming the death touch isn't no hostile / no beneficial / stun / stifle etc.. which they usually are) Even in that situation, the reflect would only do between 200k and 300k damage. And that's in a perfect scenario WITH me intentionally taking both effects.My auto attack hits harder than that. The idea of a reflect is nice. But there's no reason to put a reflect portion on it, or create a group buff around an effect that is simply not significant or even noticeable.At least make the group proc fully modifiable. Crit, crit bonus, potency.. everything. Then maybe it will turn out alright.

Boli32

10-26-2012, 01:22 PM

OK, after getting in and taking a proper look at the trees; more importantly how they are set brings one worrying concern.On the Faith Tree there is "no real need" to maximise everything; if this is intentional so we can go down the middle tree for max health and power trigger then fine and dandy but it does seem that due to the numbers/situation either herioc, raid or even solo we are just going to take the "path of the least resistance" to get the endline and then either go for the middle line - or look at 91-92 Prestigues.We can spend THREE prestigue points to reduce faith from 0.75s to instant.Now, instant is nice; I cannot deny this but at the same time 0.75s is not an eternity either; given the extremely short duration we are dealing with it will *not* be used as an "oh "fishcakes" moment; but as a timed and planned damage spike prevention; as far as I can see the *only* reason to maximise this ability is to stop it being interupted.I'll say again tho.. the reflect never works - its either too powerful (nerf) or worthless damage (LC). If we are giving "a portion" of our reflect to our priests and as a damage proc to our group then it needs to work or you just give up with the entire thing and either include a damage shield or enhance the group/faith in another way.EDIT: we like the short term damage immunity we just fear the reflect damage and all abilities which stem from it are going to be sidelined into "Torrent of Rime" territory.

japanfour

10-26-2012, 02:27 PM

LEFT SIDE-if the reflect is like LC, i think its gonna be good for pvp only. I like the ability, and if the reflect damage/triggers are tuned it will be a good ability to use consistently. -The additional time added to stonewall is great!- Faith's aura is ok, seems like a good situational ability, havent been able to test it enough to give a full opinion.-Faithful retaliation looks good, but doesnt do anywhere near enough damage to be considered. Thought: Why not make all of the left side abilities purely defense focused? I like this side more than the other side, but it just seems like both sides of the prestige tree are kind of a wash at the moment, when one should give the dps/utility and the other should give the defensive abilities. I feel like its a good start though! CENTER- The stamina bonus is pretty large, seems good I guess. -The passive power gain is really situational, I can see it being good in a group, but in a raid I can only see it being good in some last ditch effort kind of situation. Kind of hard to test it, but thats my first impression of it.Thoughts: cool I guess, aside from the power gain pretty run of the mill.RIGHT-Divine territory is an awesome idea, shame I need to spend points in the bad side of the prestige line to use it. - aura of justice gives me like 12 more dps when I max out points in it. no thanks.- the passive reactive seems nice for grouping I guess? I dont see much use for it.- Harbringer is cool I guess, doesnt feel like its doing damage worth its compromise in the prestige tree though. Needs tuning.Thoughts: This whole side needs tuning, 12 dps isnt really considerable, and this side isnt even as remotely useful as the other side, not to mention what already has been, but forcing us to use only one side of the tree seems lame. We can either get a save/reflect and a stoneskin and 35% damage reduction, OR a damage trigger on LoH an AE that doesnt hit enough targets with a single target ability that doesnt hit hard enough. Thats the balance of options as I see it currently. Try to balance these out, and if you could take the OPs advice and unlink these trees!

Maergoth

10-27-2012, 12:18 AM

Oh man. I can't wait to test these updates.Maybe I won't post that Gangam style dance video after all!

Maergoth

10-27-2012, 01:52 AM

BUMP for OP updated. Some stuff still needs to be looked at. I assume most of the right side is suffering from mechanical failure, opposed to conceptual failure.Shouldn't be too hard to fix, right?!Also, vote the Paladin feedback thread as the prettiest thread in forum history. That is all.

Vash854

10-27-2012, 06:51 PM

I agree that Harbringer and divine territory should be swapped, also fix them so they crit, and change the healback or the hate/dehate thing to something for more dps imo.

Maergoth

10-27-2012, 11:21 PM

<cite>Vash854 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that Harbringer and divine territory should be swapped, also fix them so they crit, and change the healback or the hate/dehate thing to something for more dps imo.</blockquote>Dehate, in a lot of situations, means more DPS <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> especially in recklessness. With a DPS ability on the left side, a situational aggro ability on the right seems like it could work. My only concern is that you'll be dpsing WITHOUT recklessness for obvious reasons and be generating more hate than you'd like.. but that's a fair trade of chance I think.

Maergoth

10-28-2012, 01:08 AM

EDIT: DP. Gross.

Maergoth

10-28-2012, 01:09 AM

Alright. Serverside, Divine Territory and Harbinger of Justice are functioning properly. They will be pushed through on Monday. Harbinger was hitting for 650k-ish in reckless. That's really, really high.. but that's the only way it will be worth taking.

Vash854

10-28-2012, 06:58 PM

650k? I was hitting for over 1m with it in heroics a while back before changes, maybe on a dummy with no buffs/debuffs its 650k, then yea, its good.Also change healback in dps line to group utility or something useful.

Maergoth

10-28-2012, 11:43 PM

If it's hitting that hard, it needs to be nerfed unfortunately :/ that's a little much. And that's probably about what it does with debuffs in raid. I was testing on a dummy.1 mil damage every 10 seconds is just too high. That's like, 20% of our dps on single target. The line can be made desirable by boosting the rest of the stuff if necessary, but that's a huge amount of damage for one ability.

DeathMagus

10-29-2012, 01:40 AM

<cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DeathMagus wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off... You're welcome. Second... Have you actually tested the ability in Beta by reflecting a Red text ability or a DT yet? If not I'd start with something easy to get to like the drake in Sev x4. Just wait for the mob to do Vicious Bite and try reflecting it. Third... If the only real viable complaints about the ability relate to the dmg output then why not ask for something instead of the dmg output as an alternative to simply increasing it?Also... I did say a bit of extra damage... I don't have a geared lvl 95 pally on beta to go test how the dmg portion was actually implemented. </blockquote>There are quite a few problems with everything you just said. For one, red text failure conditions in hard content apply incurable, ticking effects that span well over a 3 second window. Meaning, as soon as immunity wears off.. bam. Dead.Additionally, If you've done any real content this expansion, you'd know death touches apply in 2 parts. The first major damage infliction, and a follow up max health hit 6 seconds later. This means we CAN'T even block an entire deathtouch with it.Even with neither of those things being true, this ability reflects in the same fashion as Legionnaire's conviction. Completely unmodifiable damage. Saying that I haven't tested it, which I have, doesn't mean I can't infer it's usefulness after using an extremely similar ability for the past 2 years.In an ideal situation, you'd be able to use this ability to span 2 effects.. the end of a death touch and an AOE lining up at the same time. (Assuming the death touch isn't no hostile / no beneficial / stun / stifle etc.. which they usually are) Even in that situation, the reflect would only do between 200k and 300k damage. And that's in a perfect scenario WITH me intentionally taking both effects.My auto attack hits harder than that. The idea of a reflect is nice. But there's no reason to put a reflect portion on it, or create a group buff around an effect that is simply not significant or even noticeable.At least make the group proc fully modifiable. Crit, crit bonus, potency.. everything. Then maybe it will turn out alright.</blockquote>Some red texts don't apply the incurable that keeps ticking. An example is the last named HM in ST.... Now if it is unmodifiable like LC is now then it's probably going to be nigh worthless for dmg. But hell even if it was only a 3 sec stoneskin vs all dmg it'd be plenty useful. If you tried to say it'd be too hard to time then that's because you're either using a lackluster computer, you play on a server like Oasis that tends to lag like hell, or you're simply not very good at pushing buttons. Also, if you can't work around the DTs in PoW on a pally with 2 healers as of right now then something is wrong.

Maergoth

10-29-2012, 02:53 AM

I don't think this conversation is worth continuing. Partially because you're misunderstanding me and I don't have the patience to clarify. (I could just say you are wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's a misunderstanding)Also because the ability was adjusted and it's in proper place now.

Boli32

10-29-2012, 07:12 AM

<cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it's hitting that hard, it needs to be nerfed unfortunately :/ that's a little much. And that's probably about what it does with debuffs in raid. I was testing on a dummy.1 mil damage every 10 seconds is just too high. That's like, 20% of our dps on single target. The line can be made desirable by boosting the rest of the stuff if necessary, but that's a huge amount of damage for one ability.</blockquote>Sadly this ability is not going to be used much at all; in fact the only time I see this being used is if you are a herioc tank or you KNOW you are never going to need the DR from Sacrament.I mean if it was a choice betwene this AoE bomb or a 4s Damage immunity it may actually be a tough choice; sadly this is more a choice between the ability to actually survive in raids / tough instances or having fun on the parse.... the second may be fun once in a whlie but sadly there is little choice in the end.This will not effect me personally; but other paladins who will spend more time in a OT / AoE tank role they will be forced to give up certain aspects of the previous prestigues (thus reducing their ability to survive) if they want to get access to the AoE ability.If you make it so accessing the "final tier" in the previous prestiges unlocks ANY path of this set of prestigues it would improve almost every class; currently many classes are forced down one path simply because of previous abilities that is no choice at all it is simply a question of "oh, well I can't give that ability up"; our previous choices remove the choice for this level increase.

Maergoth

10-29-2012, 02:59 PM

4s immunity really isn't that important for tanking adds though.. and damage reduction is only necessary for preventing one-shots.For tanking adds, we still have the tools to do so. I really think the right side is worth taking, given a few more tweaks.While I agree that it's absolutely stupid to link the old prestiges and the new ones, given the current setup, the dps gain is definitely worth it for someone in the secondary or tertiary tanking position. I also agree that nerfing it too much would simply remove any desire to take this tree, given how much we have to give up. I'd say 10-15% less damage would be about right.

Cyrdemac

10-30-2012, 06:54 AM

Divine Territory still does not work right. It hits only one target with the expected amount and the other with really small numbers like 3-4 times its base value.It also hits 8 targets in range now, but only gives 6 increments from them, instead 8 for "each target struck" as in the description. Maybe changing it to the new AoE target number? Six times 2 dps and 2 haste per increment do not really matter anyway. Was it not supposed to be 6 per increment?Third, its range is unmodifiable like with Field of Battle War Rune.Harbinger of Justice works fine damage-wise but it does not give any increments back. Range modification works fine.

Maergoth

10-30-2012, 03:46 PM

Once they fix the increments being removed before all the damage is applied, it should apply the damage to every target hit, fully modifiable, and in good balance. We'll see after that happens :p

Cyrdemac

11-01-2012, 05:41 AM

Divine Territory damage works now as expected. Every target hit gets the same stacked up increments-damage.Still no increment-buff effect on use of Harbinger of Justice.Haven't checked range modifier on Divine Territory yet.

Maergoth

11-02-2012, 10:39 PM

Alright, back to the left side.Both the group reflect portion and the damage application from "Faith" have WAY too short of a range.Tested this in raids last night. Every time, I'd be lucky to catch one or two people in my group with the ability, because I was tanking the mob and they had all jousted out. The damage reduction from faith is NOT greater than the damage reduction from "Get the heck out".There is never a situation in which they should be getting hit with my reflect, or gain the damage from it.I really think they range on those two portions of the ability need to be adjusted.

Cyrdemac

11-05-2012, 11:42 AM

Divine Territory - Range still not modifiable, sticks at 10 Meters

Cyrdemac

11-08-2012, 06:21 AM

<cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zealous Power - Consecrate ticks for 1.5% max power and doesn't cancel at zero.After testing: This was changed. Theoretically, this is a much better power tool. Maybe a little less powerful, but a lot less situational. </blockquote>Actually, I find this new version worse than the static one, wich our fellow Shadowknights still have. The recast for Consecrate is too long (more than 3 minutes) to be useful against heavy manadrains from named raid encounters. I rather have a passive mana reg ever 30 sec when I get low than having to wait 3 minutes to use this spell.Might be a Coercer thing, but I still have a lot of mana problems on PoW encounters like Tagrin. And since everything coming from nameds there has a massive manadrain attached, I really liked the old version of Zealous Power more.If this version stays, lower the recast of the spell per se or via AA line in the Paladin tab.

Maergoth

11-08-2012, 02:35 PM

I'm experiencing the opposite, honestly. The only time I have mana problems is when taking death touches on top of power drains and often. Having consecrate tick for power when I need it has been far more useful than being given a small amount of power when I hit zero.No control over the old effect was the major problem with it. In addition to it being "overpowered" in solo and group situations. Plus, it makes Mana wall more viable because you can tick up extra power before using it, opposed to simply "recovering" from zero.While consecrate is up with this prestige, you'll always have power to click something. With the old version, you'd have power for a second or two and then be out again. In practice, the new version is much better.While I do feel like the power replenish is kind of low on consecrate currently, I have actually had a lot of success with this AA in the new raid zones, and I know it will work better in plane of war. Plus, consecrate cancelling when you hit zero power has to be one of the most annoying things in the universe.

Cyrdemac

11-08-2012, 03:26 PM

I see your point. I haven't got the chance to test this prestige in the new zones yet.Does this mean, we better don't spend 5 points in Consecrate Paladin-AA to shorten the bursts? As I see it, having constantly mana incoming stretched on a longer duration seems more interesting than shorter bursts.

Maergoth

11-08-2012, 04:55 PM

It means you can do either one. If you prefer mana over the longer stretch, then you can skip the points in it.Doing so also increases the reuse of Consecrate though, since recast doesn't start until it deactivates. Personally, because the mana per tick IS so low, I'd prefer a faster tick so I get the mana a little faster.It's really just preference. I precast it when I know I'm going to be drained really hard, and since the recast is so high you can afford to wait a few seconds to cast it without losing too much over the course of the fight.

Boli32

11-09-2012, 12:37 PM

<cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It means you can do either one. If you prefer mana over the longer stretch, then you can skip the points in it.Doing so also increases the reuse of Consecrate though, since recast doesn't start until it deactivates. Personally, because the mana per tick IS so low, I'd prefer a faster tick so I get the mana a little faster.It's really just preference. I precast it when I know I'm going to be drained really hard, and since the recast is so high you can afford to wait a few seconds to cast it without losing too much over the course of the fight.</blockquote>Sadly we are fast running out of points to actually spend in that tree! Without the 5 points in Concecrate you'll be "wasting" points in Raidwide Wisdom and reduced power cost on heals.A good problem to have however <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Maergoth

11-10-2012, 04:32 AM

Alright. This is probably what we're going to be working with post-launch, so I'll just say this.I am incredibly appreciative of the feedback consideration. This is the first time I'm going into an expansion anxious to try out some new skills that are not only balanced, but desirable.Legitimately excited to try them out, I just hope the raid content is a proper platform for doing so. I really wish they would delay raid release to take the extra time to polish them. Beats getting jerked around with post-launch balance, or a week-long expansion clear.

Cyrdemac

11-10-2012, 08:01 AM

Indeed. Very fast response to our feedback. Still wish, they would unchain the prestige trees from this expansion and the previous.But the way it is, I will have to port home everytime I switch from 3rd Tank to MT-Position in a raid to be effective. How about a portable mirror?

Maergoth

11-10-2012, 09:49 AM

I agree. Unchaining the trees would have made it a lot more enjoyable.. but I guess we'll just have to get that some time in the future. Probably spring it on us after a big game update or something.I guess I Just don't understand the philosophy of forcing people out of options. Not letting people take 2 conversions is one thing, but not letting them diversify their character is totally freakin' lame. And not only that, but PENALIZING them for diversifying (taking 6 of the worthless top abilities to go down both trees) makes even less sense. It's definitely the most painful thing ever.

Cyrdemac

11-11-2012, 11:53 AM

PaladinHarbinger of Justice now properly shares a reuse with Divine Territory. Its damage has been reduced.Well.. I leave this uncommented right now.

Maergoth

11-12-2012, 02:29 AM

It basically needed to happen. I was having it hit for almost 2 mil in raids. With a 10 second recast, and making up more than 20% of my DPS.. it was too much.When you're a defensive minded offtank and you're seriously considering giving up the entire left side, there's a problem. Especially with as powerful as our left side can be under the right circumstances.If we don't mention the obviously broken stuff, we can't really expect feedback to be taken seriously. I don't know how it balances against the other tanks DPS lines, but I do know that we have one of the most desirable defensive lines going into this expansion. It's a little unfair to expect the best of both worlds.As long as it wasn't reduced by more than 15%, it will still offer desirable DPS gain for offtanks who choose to go that route. Anything more than 15% and no one will want to take it without the supporting prestiges being made better. I hope they didn't reduce the damage on Divine Territory as well. And from a few minutes of testing, it seems like it all works out fine. Especially with the max health group buff attached.I still don't really understand what putting points into "Divine Territory" does, besides grant a little bit of dps/haste gain. Seems silly.With that said, however, my experiences with the raid content in this expansion leads me to believe that the situations in which "Faith" will be powerful are few and far between. No big death touches, no huge AOEs, and only a few failure conditions that can be manipulated. I really hope I haven't seen enough to complain, because a reflect based ability is heavily hinged on the content it's used in. Reflect aside, even 4 seconds of damage immunity is situational. I hope those situations arise more often than I expect.

Boli32

11-12-2012, 07:07 AM

<cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It basically needed to happen. I was having it hit for almost 2 mil in raids. With a 10 second recast, and making up more than 20% of my DPS.. it was too much.When you're a defensive minded offtank and you're seriously considering giving up the entire left side, there's a problem. Especially with as powerful as our left side can be under the right circumstances.If we don't mention the obviously broken stuff, we can't really expect feedback to be taken seriously. I don't know how it balances against the other tanks DPS lines, but I do know that we have one of the most desirable defensive lines going into this expansion. It's a little unfair to expect the best of both worlds.As long as it wasn't reduced by more than 15%, it will still offer desirable DPS gain for offtanks who choose to go that route. Anything more than 15% and no one will want to take it without the supporting prestiges being made better. I hope they didn't reduce the damage on Divine Territory as well. And from a few minutes of testing, it seems like it all works out fine. Especially with the max health group buff attached.I still don't really understand what putting points into "Divine Territory" does, besides grant a little bit of dps/haste gain. Seems silly.With that said, however, my experiences with the raid content in this expansion leads me to believe that the situations in which "Faith" will be powerful are few and far between. No big death touches, no huge AOEs, and only a few failure conditions that can be manipulated. I really hope I haven't seen enough to complain, because a reflect based ability is heavily hinged on the content it's used in. Reflect aside, even 4 seconds of damage immunity is situational. I hope those situations arise more often than I expect.</blockquote>In my experiance raids on beta should be taken with a pinch of salt. often the incoming damage is MUCH higher on live (sometimes as much as double or tripple) and AoEs which barely tickled on beta will one-shot the raid on live. Remember they want us to test the scripts of raids not to spend most of our time repairing <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm guessing there will be a lot of opportunity for faith to become very useful.I just wish that the range for the DR reflect and damage triggers was taken to AT LEAST max healing range (25m?) so the group is given the option of staying or jousting away entirely; less than 10m range from the mob often ends up taking SIGNIFICANTLY more daage even including the 26% DR.If group members are that close they will be AoE immune making the reflect/damage triggers worthless.

Cyrdemac

11-12-2012, 10:30 AM

Right now, I don't see a chance to EVER use the right DPS tree. The left one is essential for tanking and has to be brought to a raid as a tank. Switching position during raids would require porting home to mirror the DPS spec and I don't see that happen either.Since cross speccing is virtually not an option, I will always have this left tree active.So for me, the DPS tree is just nice to look at but never to use. When do we get portable mirrors again?Maybe I should start sucking at tanking to get a DPS role more often.

Maergoth

11-12-2012, 03:26 PM

I agree with the range issues on the group application parts of Faith. I noticed the same thing. It really does need to have a larger radius, for both coverage and application of the buff afterwards.Cyrdemac, the only people who should be using the right are tertiary tanks or people who have trivialized the content. For example, 6 months from now, I might switch to the right side just to post some cool DPS parses and stuff.Unfortunately, because Devout Sacrament is one of THE most important tools we have access to, you can't make the right side desirable for a primary offtank without it being overpowered.Such is the result of linking the old and new prestige trees. I've been trying and trying to get separation after the conversion considered, but haven't even got a response to it. It probably won't happen any time soon.

Cyrdemac

11-12-2012, 07:35 PM

<cite>Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with the range issues on the group application parts of Faith. I noticed the same thing. It really does need to have a larger radius, for both coverage and application of the buff afterwards.Cyrdemac, the only people who should be using the right are tertiary tanks or people who have trivialized the content. For example, 6 months from now, I might switch to the right side just to post some cool DPS parses and stuff.Unfortunately, because Devout Sacrament is one of THE most important tools we have access to, you can't make the right side desirable for a primary offtank without it being overpowered.Such is the result of linking the old and new prestige trees. I've been trying and trying to get separation after the conversion considered, but haven't even got a response to it. It probably won't happen any time soon.</blockquote>yep, so it seemsbut portable mirror would be cool