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Zinwrath
06-29-2012, 01:23 PM
<p>I dont know if anyone else has mentioned this.  But why are we having to grind for pvp gear? </p><p>Lets take a journey through time.  WoW introduced BG's.  Realized that pve and pvp were too different systems.  So they created stats that made it so PVP gear would always be the best for pvp and pve gear would be the best for pve.</p><p>This did however not address the issue of "grinding in pvp for gear"  The matches in BG's and arenas were unfair.  In any pvp environement players want things to be as fair as possible.  Allowing one person to have obtained an advantage over the next guy because he grinds 18 hours a day, is discouraging and upsetting for the more casual gamer or casual pvper.   WoW never really figured out the simple fix to this but now newer mmos have.   The latest is guild wars 2.</p><p>If you played guild wars2 as i have, you'll notice that all the gear is equal across the board.  You can however adjust stats to acheive your playstyle.  But in the end your always going to be allowed the same stat changes as the next guy.  They took things one step further and realize that pvp isnt about grinding.  In pve this works because it makes players have to over come challenges in dungeons and play through them to move onto the next content.  PvP it just means getting owned by people who have better gear till you have as good gear.   Thats not cool</p><p>Look at any typical pvp style game.  Counter strike or other shooters.  Fighters like Street fighter online etc.   People play these games 12 hours more a day.  They are not (usually) earning any thing else but the satisfaction they get from their stats or kill score at the end.  Occasionally a game like Team fortress 2 will introduce cosmetics you can earn.  Guild wars 2 also has introduced a system that the better you do or more you play in pvp...the cooler appearance gear you can earn to show off for your accomplishments.   This gives the same satisfaction you get from earning that next peice of gear in pve.   You still can show off, you still feel cool for your new title or weopon....and pvp remains an equal playing field.   Theres a reason games like super smash brothers everyone who plays competitively turns off items etc.  They want BALANCED PVP.  The more balanced the happier pvpers are.    In short to summerize.  When they made the pvp for this game they were copying an older mmo's style, the new way of pvp in mmos is taking over.  I see no reason this game shouldnt learn from its competition in this regard and follow suite with what is making tons of people happy.  Already several of my friends have bought gw2.  Games like this still have more content and its own life and style that keeps people happy.  But if your playing simply to pvp....it is lacking.  Some of my friends and myself will prob continue to play this or their respected mmos for the pve, but will jump on gw2 when they just wanna have fun killing each other.    I could be wrong but i think the community would be happy with this change as it would allow anyone to just jump into pvp when they wanted to have a good time, and not have to feel the need to suffer being at a disadvantage for weeks and months till they can truley enjoy pvp.  I think this game could take it a few steps further by adding house trophys for pvp accomplishments and pvp earned particle effects.  </p><p>Anyway, hope this feedback is helpful.</p>

Balrok
06-29-2012, 01:52 PM
<p>Hang around till GU64.. they are trying to accomplish what your asking for.  Actually I like what they are trying to do vs what GW2 did.. unless GW2 gear is capped in PvP.  Appearance gear doesn't do it for me... if I PvP all day, I want better PvP gear then someone that PvE's all day.  I want it to be very close... but I deserve an edge.  Their goal is to make it as you wish, but give a slight edge to someone that PvP's all day vs someone that raids all day. </p>

Twyxx
06-29-2012, 01:59 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hang around till GU64.. they are trying to accomplish what your asking for.  Actually I like what they are trying to do vs what GW2 did.. unless GW2 gear is capped in PvP.  Appearance gear doesn't do it for me... if I PvP all day, I want better PvP gear then someone that PvE's all day.  I want it to be very close... but I deserve an edge.  Their goal is to make it as you wish, but give a slight edge to someone that PvP's all day vs someone that raids all day. </p></blockquote><p>Yeah, look at the bg gear tiers I like what they're doing.  It's still going to take a reasonable amount of time to get all the tier 3 gear and you'll have a slight edge over a top end raider in pve gear.  There will be a grind to get there, but you're getting there by pvp'ing.  If you don't like playing bg's or pvp'ing then why grind for pvp gear?</p><p>One thing I wish is that you could go from t1 gear to t3 gear without buying the t2 gear.  Make it so you would get a bigger token credit for turning in a t2 piece, but not necessarily require you to follow the path.  Not a big deal though if they keep it as is.</p>

Zinwrath
06-29-2012, 02:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hang around till GU64.. they are trying to accomplish what your asking for.  Actually I like what they are trying to do vs what GW2 did.. unless GW2 gear is capped in PvP.  Appearance gear doesn't do it for me... if I PvP all day, I want better PvP gear then someone that PvE's all day.  I want it to be very close... but I deserve an edge.  Their goal is to make it as you wish, but give a slight edge to someone that PvP's all day vs someone that raids all day. </p></blockquote><p>Your still comparing PVE and PVP.  The notion is to seperate the two as they are two different games.  I'm not sure why you would want to be set for end game pve off pvping.  But what guild wars 2 did is the moment you zone into the pvp area "where you que up for bg's"  you are immidiatly outfitted in end game pvp gear.   You are on the same footing as the next guy in the bg's you fight against.       IT isnt about being compared to someone who pve's all day.  As they are kept seperate in this situation.   All pvpers are just as strong as the next able to enjoy the fun factor of fighting each other in a competitive environment without someone having a gross advatnage over the next.  In my example i noted that thats how it is in nearly every successfull-nonmmo pvp game.  Players pvp because its fun, not because they're trying to earn something that allows them to insta kill people who are new, you already have the advantage you probably are more experienced, why do you need a handicap ontop of that?     What you do earn in games like TF2 and GW2 is cosmetic acheivements or titles.  This allows you to still be earning something while you pvp that is satisfying for your successes/wins etc as well as statistics to show off how good you are like in a shooter etc.</p><p>Its a bit of a brainwashing to think the pvp-pve has to be connected by gear as thats what WoW and other mmo's of its time did, and sony just copy pasted it to their mmo cause the only game not doing that came out a year before "AoC" which bombed horribly for different reasons.</p>

Seliri
06-29-2012, 02:35 PM
<p><cite>Zinwrath wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dont know if anyone else has mentioned this.  But why are we having to grind for pvp gear? </p><p>Lets take a journey through time.  WoW introduced BG's.  Realized that pve and pvp were too different systems.  So they created stats that made it so PVP gear would always be the best for pvp and pve gear would be the best for pve.</p><p>This did however not address the issue of "grinding in pvp for gear"  The matches in BG's and arenas were unfair.  In any pvp environement players want things to be as fair as possible.  Allowing one person to have obtained an advantage over the next guy because he grinds 18 hours a day, is discouraging and upsetting for the more casual gamer or casual pvper.   WoW never really figured out the simple fix to this but now newer mmos have.   The latest is guild wars 2.</p><p>If you played guild wars2 as i have, you'll notice that all the gear is equal across the board.  You can however adjust stats to acheive your playstyle.  But in the end your always going to be allowed the same stat changes as the next guy.  They took things one step further and realize that pvp isnt about grinding.  In pve this works because it makes players have to over come challenges in dungeons and play through them to move onto the next content.  PvP it just means getting owned by people who have better gear till you have as good gear.   Thats not cool</p><p>Look at any typical pvp style game.  Counter strike or other shooters.  Fighters like Street fighter online etc.   People play these games 12 hours more a day.  They are not (usually) earning any thing else but the satisfaction they get from their stats or kill score at the end.  Occasionally a game like Team fortress 2 will introduce cosmetics you can earn.  Guild wars 2 also has introduced a system that the better you do or more you play in pvp...the cooler appearance gear you can earn to show off for your accomplishments.   This gives the same satisfaction you get from earning that next peice of gear in pve.   You still can show off, you still feel cool for your new title or weopon....and pvp remains an equal playing field.   Theres a reason games like super smash brothers everyone who plays competitively turns off items etc.  They want BALANCED PVP.  The more balanced the happier pvpers are.    In short to summerize.  When they made the pvp for this game they were copying an older mmo's style, the new way of pvp in mmos is taking over.  I see no reason this game shouldnt learn from its competition in this regard and follow suite with what is making tons of people happy.  Already several of my friends have bought gw2.  Games like this still have more content and its own life and style that keeps people happy.  But if your playing simply to pvp....it is lacking.  Some of my friends and myself will prob continue to play this or their respected mmos for the pve, but will jump on gw2 when they just wanna have fun killing each other.    I could be wrong but i think the community would be happy with this change as it would allow anyone to just jump into pvp when they wanted to have a good time, and not have to feel the need to suffer being at a disadvantage for weeks and months till they can truley enjoy pvp.  I think this game could take it a few steps further by adding house trophys for pvp accomplishments and pvp earned particle effects.  </p><p>Anyway, hope this feedback is helpful.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The problem that I've seen, & tried to suggest a solution to, is the fact that quality PvP gear is no longer obtained from farming in contested dungeons (farming contested dungeons being 1 of many gallant hurdles & loops mentioned for quality PvP gear acquisition, seen as #16 in the 45 PoAfEP linked in my signature).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">This would promote a greater sense of community togetherness with calls for specific, REGIONAL reinforcements & the like (<em>as opposed to the mindless respawn & charge mentality</em>).</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Mixing & matching solid itemization choices is also a quality piece of the wisdom & strategy required for success in an RPG.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Rare trinket drops that could be forged, in volume with many other rare trinket drops, for a random item for your class with a quality proc, could make the grind far more rewarding & unique than the cookie cutter options we endure (& will likely have to with EQ2's budget).</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">With warfields being revamped to include higher rewards, PvP will have its zerg spirit resurrected for a time, but warfields also only run every hour, & battlegrounds may remain the fastest route for efficiency, or a combination of the two. ;o</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Note that Guild Wars 2 is a 2012 title -- it's new, shiny, & likely with a higher budget than the greatly downsized 2004 hit that EQ2 is (with its PvP component being added in 2006)...</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">But regardless, BECOMING COMPETENT NEEDS TO TAKE TIME.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Without a HEALTHILY EXHAUSTING time commitment required for adopting full efficiency, many will simply stop playing.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">You always have the route of playing in the lesser tiers & banking PvP tokens until you can fully adorn yourself in the highest caliber of PvP gear.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">In T4, LVLs 30-39, this takes SIGNIFICANTLY LESS TIME than in T10, LVLs 90-92.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">The most intelligent method of MIN/MAXing (minimizing losses, maximizing gains) is to also JOIN AN ACTIVE GUILD & PVP WITH ONLY ONE OR TWO INCOMPETENT NOOBS with 4 or 5 stacked, quality allies aiding you in your grind.</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Now that PvP ranks (fame) are, for the 3rd change, remaining easymode, there will be little competition to progress within the fame system</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Fame progress has become a guarantee with mindless time invested in squashing squishy, skilless lemmings, thus discouraging the idea of seeing a high PvP title as a "challenging accomplishment", as opposed to quality tactics required to advance when there's only a +/- 1 rank fame range for gaining PvP title XP (ambushing with higher #s, IMMENSE spike damage/crowd control).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The PvP rank system being a quality, cyclical impetus for rivalry is important because</span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;"> </span>it's one of 2 only other alternative for promoting content longevity in PvP</strong>.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Also, there are seemingly not going to be any seasonal rewards (every 2-3 months?) for top contenders in the PvP rank scheme, which is also another grave setback toward promoting content longevity for EQ2 PvP.</span></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">All kills, STILL WITHOUT A +/- 1 RANK FAME RANGE, will reward PvP rank XP.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">The safest/fastest route for PvP rank advancement will be solo/duo play, due to less uncontrollable variables in group PvP.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">Fame hits are also more substantial when solo.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">With a +/- 1 rank fame range, higher title players can PvP with lower title players </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">& not worry about losing their PvP rank XP until a player IN THEIR RANGE presents themself.</span></em></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Warfield objectives were let to be too simple, with too basic of a reward, as well.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If warfields gave quality rewards (duration augmentations, lockout resets/reductions, rare whatever, etc), PvEers/raiders/PvE dungeon grinders would have incentive to rigorously compete for success therein.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And yerp, warfields aren't too engaging or immersive with so simple & gimmicky an objective.</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Again, when other methods for CYCLICAL LONGEVITY (endless replay value) fall short (public PvP quests & public PvP quest rewards, rivalrous PvP rank/fame jockeying), the time cost for becoming the most potent possible needs to be elevated accordingly.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">However, this is also ignored, seeing as old battleground & world PvP tokens will be grandfathered into the new "Havoc" token (instant maximum quality for many).  These will also remain heirloom, unlike the original state of PvP tokens.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">Heirloom = tradable between alternative characters, thus reducing advancement time & REDUCING CONTENT LONGEVITY due to the fact that 1 capped character can acquire tokens faster than 1 incompetent character grinding their way up.</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Be sure to remember that there is also crafted gear available at LVL 90 with 2 PvP adornment slots, as well (for the cost of 1 harvested, LVL 80-89, Mastercrafted rare)...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong><span>But primarily, it seems like a joke to complain of the time required to become effective in EQ2 PvP.</span></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Pieces of gear used to take 100-125 or 175 WRITS to obtain...& now it's just...a whole, whole lot less, which is part of why EQ2 PvP has been so dead.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Though, only PART of why.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Maybe EQ2 has run its course for peak population, but there have, of course, been a number of disadvantageous puzzle scramblings...</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Oh, & players still don't have a chance to drop a trophy of their head on a plaque as a house item, with exact armor/texture/facial feature/particle effects reproduced...darn suggested dat a long time ago... ;p</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">dem dere nifty, novel incentives bruhs...</span></p><p><cite>Zinwrath wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hang around till GU64.. they are trying to accomplish what your asking for.  Actually I like what they are trying to do vs what GW2 did.. unless GW2 gear is capped in PvP.  Appearance gear doesn't do it for me... if I PvP all day, I want better PvP gear then someone that PvE's all day.  I want it to be very close... but I deserve an edge.  Their goal is to make it as you wish, but give a slight edge to someone that PvP's all day vs someone that raids all day. </p></blockquote><p>Your still comparing PVE and PVP.  The notion is to seperate the two as they are two different games.  I'm not sure why you would want to be set for end game pve off pvping.  But what guild wars 2 did is the moment you zone into the pvp area "where you que up for bg's"  you are immidiatly outfitted in end game pvp gear.   You are on the same footing as the next guy in the bg's you fight against.       IT isnt about being compared to someone who pve's all day.  As they are kept seperate in this situation.   All pvpers are just as strong as the next able to enjoy the fun factor of fighting each other in a competitive environment without someone having a gross advatnage over the next.  In my example i noted that thats how it is in nearly every successfull-nonmmo pvp game.  Players pvp because its fun, not because they're trying to earn something that allows them to insta kill people who are new, you already have the advantage you probably are more experienced, why do you need a handicap ontop of that?     What you do earn in games like TF2 and GW2 is cosmetic acheivements or titles.  This allows you to still be earning something while you pvp that is satisfying for your successes/wins etc as well as statistics to show off how good you are like in a shooter etc.</p><p>Its a bit of a brainwashing to think the pvp-pve has to be connected by gear as thats what WoW and other mmo's of its time did, and sony just copy pasted it to their mmo cause the only game not doing that came out a year before "AoC" which bombed horribly for different reasons.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And also, no, many players don't just PvP because its fun (yes, that is a valid demographic, but certainly not the only one, & definitely not the only user type for a 6-8 year old MMORPG).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Many MMO users, SUBSCRIPTION-BASED consumers, just want to top out & experience what it is to be the best, & then retire.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">There need to be specific zinger type of game design feats & actions that hook an individual.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You mention FPSers, & it's obvious that it's a rush to simply bust repeated headshots & amass low kill:death ratios & seek 1st on the scoreboard.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The draw is also different there, as you said, those are "pick up & play" games, but a MMORPG centers around creating a legacy & a renown presence in a community of friends.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I shall conclude with PvP & PvE ARE NOT TWO DIFFERENT GAMES & they can be melded in a perfectly complimentary fashion (contested raids, block forces, again, contested dungeon farming, & also, PvP gear serving as intermediate PvE gear, though not the finest, of course)! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; color: #ff0000;">Ok no wait...</span></p><p><strong><span style="font-size: small; color: #ff0000;">Summarily, the "NEW WAY" of MMORPGs is MOTEHR PAE FDJ(YHD(YRH(#UR)(JF-ing MORALLY OFFENSIVE & DOWNRIGHT PATHETICALLY UNDERWHELMING & IT IS TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS, IN ALL ABSOLUTE TOTALITY.</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The gaming industry is outrageous due to its lack of innovation & cookie cutter, stereotypical rehashing of mundane failure.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Low class, racial, & QUALITY equipment variety is a recipe for GTphajookOUT with such a narrow selection of choice.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">WoW, GW2, R: POT all suck in this department, & if I'm not mistaken, so does Aion, SWTOR, Tera, Conan, & LOTR.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And deh phelerueoaruok at a lot of these random F2P MMORPGs with pretty decent graphics, dat dere Google search of peace...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">There is a strong lack of total unified game design theory pulling from all the best that video gaming franchises have seen, & to this effect I am disappointed in considering the fact that I may die before the one MMO to rule them all is finally mastered.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">It's like cosmology, physics, & quantum physics have conspired to challenge the minds of modern theorists for a grand, unified theory of everything, just as the quality of video games has beckoned for a grand, unified theory of compelling gaming...it's almost biuriful...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Although maybe that's okay cause MMOs could be from like, Satan & stuff. Dat dere buying & selling one's talents for vain excess.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">InB4 the entire SOE team deserts & becomes missionaries & humanitarians...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">So I jest...one can live righteously laboring & contributing elsewhere!</span></p>

Zinwrath
06-29-2012, 03:53 PM
<p>in responce to the wall of txt above me.  People dont need the kind of advancement you speak of to keep playing a game.  There is no advancement and never really has been to counter strike, yet millions of players played it.   Why?  Because its fun.  You simply make a game fun and people keep playing it.   Read guild wars 2 business model <a href="http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success">http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun...easures-success</a>.      The reward for time spent is a simple gimmick to give people the feeling of accomplishment and thus the addictiveness of doing repetitive things they dont even find fun.   Its like when i see someone in sebelis for HOURS grinding and complaining in chat how bored they are.   This is a seperate problem with its own reasons but my point is grinding rarely = fun.  If people found it fun they wouldnt always be looking for the fastest route to get to the end result.   They do this because they just want to be at the end result not because its fun getting there.        In the end this is a game.  A game you pay for for your enjoyment.  I quit eq1 because after awhile...it didnt feel like a game after a certain point.  After awhile the only joy i got was talking to my friends.  The game itself became too repetitious and the end result wasnt satisfying enough. </p><p>Lets use a quick example.  What if the tradeskill "mini game" was a seperate game on the iphone or console.   It had no application past that.  You simply could make stuff untill you got to max lvl then the game was over.  Would you buy it? would you play it?  probably not.   This is an example of what i'm talking about...it is a grind to get to the end result.  It is not fun...maybe its kinda fun, but not AS fun as say (insert other game you enjoy here).  Heck i find tetris funner...if i lvled up tradeskills off playing tetris i'd be WAY more enthused to lvl up trades.    </p><p>Simply put in the simplest form i can say it.   If end game BG's were fun enough...people wouldnt care about earning ANYTHING from playing it.  They'd play it because the experience is exciting.   Cosmetic awards such as house items, weopon skins, titles etc...are reward enough.  You dont need to create a grind experience for people to play it if its fun. </p>

Seliri
06-29-2012, 04:09 PM
<p><cite>Zinwrath wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>in responce to the wall of txt above me.  People dont need the kind of advancement you speak of to keep playing a game.  There is no advancement and never really has been to counter strike, yet millions of players played it.   Why?  Because its fun.  You simply make a game fun and people keep playing it.   Read guild wars 2 business model <a href="http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success">http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun...easures-success</a>.      The reward for time spent is a simple gimmick to give people the feeling of accomplishment and thus the addictiveness of doing repetitive things they dont even find fun.   Its like when i see someone in sebelis for HOURS grinding and complaining in chat how bored they are.   This is a seperate problem with its own reasons but my point is grinding rarely = fun.  If people found it fun they wouldnt always be looking for the fastest route to get to the end result.   They do this because they just want to be at the end result not because its fun getting there.        In the end this is a game.  A game you pay for for your enjoyment.  I quit eq1 because after awhile...it didnt feel like a game after a certain point.  After awhile the only joy i got was talking to my friends.  The game itself became too repetitious and the end result wasnt satisfying enough. </p><p>Lets use a quick example.  What if the tradeskill "mini game" was a seperate game on the iphone or console.   It had no application past that.  You simply could make stuff untill you got to max lvl then the game was over.  Would you buy it? would you play it?  probably not.   This is an example of what i'm talking about...it is a grind to get to the end result.  It is not fun...maybe its kinda fun, but not AS fun as say (insert other game you enjoy here).  Heck i find tetris funner...if i lvled up tradeskills off playing tetris i'd be WAY more enthused to lvl up trades.    </p><p>Simply put in the simplest form i can say it.   If end game BG's were fun enough...people wouldnt care about earning ANYTHING from playing it.  They'd play it because the experience is exciting.   Cosmetic awards such as house items, weopon skins, titles etc...are reward enough.  You dont need to create a grind experience for people to play it if its fun. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I never was saying battlegrounds contain compelling objectives, as I've mentioned (in the past) that they too are cookie cutter, stereotypical, recycled, rehashed, dreary renditions of tasks.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">But the fact is that world PvP should be the center of PvP activity, & a more diverse set of PvPing locales, coupled with a PvP rank system that ACTUALLY SUPPORTS rivalry & a warfield scheme that rewards all playstyles evenly, these all would result in a far more enjoyable, immersive, & engaging "grind".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">In mentioning Counter Strike's success, again, you mistake the rush from fine motor skill acuity & keen reaction time seen in FPSes as an appropriate analogy.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Yes, that's still required in MMOs in order to push the right buttons at the right time, provided the classes, gear, & party size are of decent odds.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">What appeals to you is having power, the ability to influence your foes' capacity to exert theirs or not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">To take something of value from another...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">To take an opportunity to hurt you or your allies, to take a chance at their having "higher status" than you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">In a FPS, this is as simple as quality headshots.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">"Sadly", people do not die this quickly in MMORPGs (well, unless you're a LVL 92 Assassin ;( )...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">A MMORPG needs things like a +/-1 PvP rank range, multi-region/zone based gearing (forging components), <strong>RARE</strong> drops/crafted products, & dynamic and FRESH objectives in battlegrounds/warfields, because more often than not, fights aren't so close that they resolve upon fine motor skills & reaction speeds.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Fights tend to be relative to comparable class balance, party layout, gear layout, & party size.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">This is the strategy of MMORPGs.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Something that could appeal to you more might be League of Legends?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Or Guild Wars 2 if appearance gear is so important to you? ;p hehe.</span></p>

Balrok
06-29-2012, 04:15 PM
<p>In time you'll learn to just scroll past orange wall of text.  I think he's got some great points, but I don't have the time to translate what he's trying to say.</p><p>... back on track.  So that's really neato for you what GW2 is doing in PvP.  If it's what you say it is, then GW2 made the choice to not support MMO based PvP.  They've chosen to fall inline with all the other FPS, TF2, etc... type games for PvP.  These games are almost purely skill based (very fun, but not an MMO).  The real point to any MMO is gear, plain and simple.  It's the core concept of ANY MMO... and I want/desire a MMO based PvP system.  I like having gear advantages that I've "earn" over the competition.  It's what makes it different then those other PvP type games.</p>

Zinwrath
06-29-2012, 04:17 PM
<p>whats important is fun.  I dont care if the game is 8-bit if i enjoy it.</p><p><a href="http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success">http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun...easures-success</a></p><p>read this if you didnt.  IT basicly says everything i was trying to say better than i did.</p><p>I have a feeling eq "next" will be more in line with what i want.  So i'll hold my breath till then.  But since eq 2 is being somewhat of a beta testing field.  I want to give my feedback so they can perfect their game as i enjoy the world and characters of Everquest.  And yes i play league of legends and yes i already purchased GW2 as i've been playing it in beta and so far find it extremely fun.</p>

Seliri
06-29-2012, 04:26 PM
<p><cite>Zinwrath wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>whats important is fun.  I dont care if the game is 8-bit if i enjoy it.</p><p><a href="http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success">http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun...easures-success</a></p><p>read this if you didnt.  IT basicly says everything i was trying to say better than i did.</p><p>I have a feeling eq "next" will be more in line with what i want.  So i'll hold my breath till then.  But since eq 2 is being somewhat of a beta testing field.  I want to give my feedback so they can perfect their game as i enjoy the world and characters of Everquest.  And yes i play league of legends and yes i already purchased GW2 as i've been playing it in beta and so far find it extremely fun.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You're a pick up & play gamer & IMO, there are already enough mediocre, trashy titles with little depth that fill that niche.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If developers cave in & cater to such simplistic desires with little concern for the amusement of fulfilling long term goals in a MMORPG, my disappointment with the game industry may very well remain perpetual!!! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Although I do feel the 2 hardcore & casual playstyles can be accomodated, considering you only mention the immediacy of battlegrounds, the fact that matchmakers can be made relative to equipment quality, AA count, & win:lose ratio makes such compromise possible (provided that the population is high enough...).</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And I don't see you as a lesser individual or anything...I know people have different preferences & tastes...that's just my perception of titles like GW2 & LoL... O_o</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">What fun quantifies as tends to be the successful exertion of power...in MMORPGs, this, more often than not, takes some alliance building, communication/cooperation, & of course, time...& cunning strategy if your foes experience enough mortal threat that they truly fight their hardest to exhaust all possible methods of dominance...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Although sometimes, being terrible is mysteriously entertaining... ;|</span></p>

Zinwrath
06-29-2012, 04:32 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In time you'll learn to just scroll past orange wall of text.  I think he's got some great points, but I don't have the time to translate what he's trying to say.</p><p>... back on track.  So that's really neato for you what GW2 is doing in PvP.  If it's what you say it is, then GW2 made the choice to not support MMO based PvP.  They've chosen to fall inline with all the other FPS, TF2, etc... type games for PvP.  These games are almost purely skill based (very fun, but not an MMO).  The real point to any MMO is gear, plain and simple.  It's the core concept of ANY MMO... and I want/desire a MMO based PvP system.  I like having gear advantages that I've "earn" over the competition.  It's what makes it different then those other PvP type games.</p></blockquote><p>"The real point to any MMO is gear" read the link i put up.   While i acknowledge and understand that you find that funner to earn advantages over other players.  I cant really argue what you enjoy.  I can say from a game developer point of view (assumptions because i am not one unless you include mods) that when developing something with "fun" in mind.  You try to elminate anti-fun.  For example, if an act in a game creates a small satisfaction for a player, but ..is terrible feeling for every other player.  Thats a bad balance.   Its like having all your buffs dispelled.   For the player doing it, they know that its helping..but its not as satisfying as say seeing their hp drop substantially.   While for the person whos buffs have been removed it might actualy be MORE frusterating than seeing your healthbar drop.    This is an example of where a choice was made that created more frusteration for the victem than enjoyment for the attacker.   I may be wrong but you get the idea.  I think the gear progression that gives players advantages over others in pvp...while is somewhat satisfying for the player who has the gear, is frusterating for everyone else...creating the "grind" i mentioned where you put yourself into fights you know your not very helpful to and thus not feeling satisfied by your contribution in hopes of the end result where you will.   </p><p>Like i said, i cant argue what you want.  I'm just saying why i dont think this is the best path.  If the game can give you OTHER advantages that dont effect other players like...cosmetics etc.  I think the whole "the real point of any mmo is gear" is kinda like saying..."a boat needs a sale to be a boat"   Sure thats how the original ones did it...but later on they invented other ways of moving across the water.   MMOS are massive online games simply meaning games where tons of players can play together.  They usually encourage some form of community based play "guilds clans etc".  Thats where the rules end imo.   But like i said i respect your opinion and view.  If thats truley what you want in pvp.  Then perhaps its something that needs to exist.....BUT if we can give you the SAME satisfaction while limiting the grind and unhappiness for other players.  Than i think its worth looking into.  have you considered other rewards that would be equally fullfililng?</p>

Seliri
06-29-2012, 04:54 PM
<p><cite>Zinwrath wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In time you'll learn to just scroll past orange wall of text.  I think he's got some great points, but I don't have the time to translate what he's trying to say.</p><p>... back on track.  So that's really neato for you what GW2 is doing in PvP.  If it's what you say it is, then GW2 made the choice to not support MMO based PvP.  They've chosen to fall inline with all the other FPS, TF2, etc... type games for PvP.  These games are almost purely skill based (very fun, but not an MMO).  The real point to any MMO is gear, plain and simple.  It's the core concept of ANY MMO... and I want/desire a MMO based PvP system.  I like having gear advantages that I've "earn" over the competition.  It's what makes it different then those other PvP type games.</p></blockquote><p>"The real point to any MMO is gear" read the link i put up.   While i acknowledge and understand that you find that funner to earn advantages over other players.  I cant really argue what you enjoy.  I can say from a game developer point of view (assumptions because i am not one unless you include mods) that when developing something with "fun" in mind.  You try to elminate anti-fun.  For example, if an act in a game creates a small satisfaction for a player, but ..is terrible feeling for every other player.  Thats a bad balance.   Its like having all your buffs dispelled.   For the player doing it, they know that its helping..but its not as satisfying as say seeing their hp drop substantially.   While for the person whos buffs have been removed it might actualy be MORE frusterating than seeing your healthbar drop.    This is an example of where a choice was made that created more frusteration for the victem than enjoyment for the attacker.   I may be wrong but you get the idea.  I think the gear progression that gives players advantages over others in pvp...while is somewhat satisfying for the player who has the gear, is frusterating for everyone else...creating the "grind" i mentioned where you put yourself into fights you know your not very helpful to and thus not feeling satisfied by your contribution in hopes of the end result where you will.   </p><p>Like i said, i cant argue what you want.  I'm just saying why i dont think this is the best path.  If the game can give you OTHER advantages that dont effect other players like...cosmetics etc.  I think the whole "the real point of any mmo is gear" is kinda like saying..."a boat needs a sale to be a boat"   Sure thats how the original ones did it...but later on they invented other ways of moving across the water.   MMOS are massive online games simply meaning games where tons of players can play together.  They usually encourage some form of community based play "guilds clans etc".  Thats where the rules end imo.   But like i said i respect your opinion and view.  If thats truley what you want in pvp.  Then perhaps its something that needs to exist.....BUT if we can give you the SAME satisfaction while limiting the grind and unhappiness for other players.  Than i think its worth looking into.  have you considered other rewards that would be equally fullfililng?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I think MMORPG combat would have to incorporate fine motor skills & reaction speed as the bottom line in combat, in order for combat alone to be "enough" (the thrill of one upping someone in an exact moment of comparative sportsmanship)...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Until then, there are reasonable, engaging, long term objectives that can be produced to promote a sustained, active loyalty to PvP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Although PvPing against Wizards as a Shadowknight can be fun!And against Enchanters before cure mez while mezzed items existed...</span></p>

Balrok
06-29-2012, 04:55 PM
<p>Both game styles/types are fun.Both game styles/types have their markets.</p><p>But we're comparing apples to oranges.  I play EQ2 PvP cause it is in the market I wanted.  I am well aware of the hundreds of game types you're telling me GW2 is releasing for PvP.  I get bored with those games very quickly cause it's the same thing over and over and over again.... nothing changes.  In EQ2, gear changes and is a factor.... and I don't get bored with it.</p><p>It's not just a skill based game... it's skill + gear.  btw... WoW didn't fail, that's the market their in.</p>

Zinwrath
06-29-2012, 06:33 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Both game styles/types are fun.Both game styles/types have their markets.</p><p>But we're comparing apples to oranges.  I play EQ2 PvP cause it is in the market I wanted.  I am well aware of the hundreds of game types you're telling me GW2 is releasing for PvP.  I get bored with those games very quickly cause it's the same thing over and over and over again.... nothing changes.  In EQ2, gear changes and is a factor.... and I don't get bored with it.</p><p>It's not just a skill based game... it's skill + gear.  btw... WoW didn't fail, that's the market their in.</p></blockquote><p>I dont fully undertand your observation.   When you say the same thing over and over...nothing changes.   Have you played gw2?   Gear changes in the sense new gear comes out, just like WoW and most mmos.  New dungeon, new gear to earn.  New season of BG's new gear to earn.    This is not something that EQ2 has that other mmos dont have.   SKill+Gear has been a thing that EQ2 copied didnt create.     Also, the reward for great gear is not gotten of skill alone, its gotten off grind.  When wow first put in the honor system before bg's you could only obtain the best gear by having the most honor kills.   The top honor players with the best honor gear on our server i remember dueling and beating them horribly easily, as did everyone else...they were jokes.  People always thought it was ridiculous that they had the best gear and lost most 1on1 encounters.  But by simple fact these people either A) always were online or B) had other people play their characters when they werent online to grind....they were able to have the status of best pvper on the server.     This is no longer rewarding skill alone, its rewarding time spent playing.  The only way wow finally solved this is by making a seperate pvp gear that you must reach a certain rating in arenas to obtain that is better than all other gear.   Outside of that, its still a grind to obtain gear. "grind meaning doing the same thing over and over and over to get what you want, often something you dont enjoy doing to get what you want"</p><p>As for doing the same thing over and over, if you had played GW2, you would know that you do earn gear etc.  And questing is far more interesting.  I logged on one day and went into this part of the world where a guy was having me pick stuff in his garden...i went on to do bg's and came back later that day and people were running around watering his herd of cattle so i helped in and got a bit of exp etc.   Well, i returned the next day and the exact same farm is now under attack by weird worm creatures....after helping dispose of the worm creatures suddenly a giant worm errupts out of the ground and all of us questers have to join each other to take down the giant boss monster.    Every day i went back it was a new experience.   One thing i always loved about EQ and still like about EQ2 was the random monster spawns.  Repetition as you put it is boring.  Having to grind the same dungeon over and over to get what youw ant is boring, if you read the article i put up, in GW2 when you redo a dungeon it changes, and you can even choose alternate dungeon paths (this is done by a vote system before you enter the dungeon).  Still same end result but you change up how you play it.    EQ2 to my knowledge has nothing on the slate yet for this.   But thats not what this thread is about.  I understand the apples to oranges...people have different opinions and this game caters to that market that your apart of, just like the people who literally would be happy killing the same 4 monsters in sebelis repeatedly to get anything...love their asian mmos (aion and final fantasy was like playing an arcade game with only one button that you press repeatedly untill you win).    This has its own market though...some people love it.  I cant understand it but i cant argue someone for having a different opinion.    WoW was a success because it took what EQ had "they openly admitted they based their games design off complaints on the EQ forums"  and found a way to make things that were tedious fun and take away some of the frusterating things about it.   New mmos are just taking it one step further...heck even eq2 took it one step further.  You get a trail that leads you to quests they put in teleporters to just about anywhere that anyone can access..you can mentor down and PL other characters...etcetc.  Infact EQ2 has taken tons of ideas from other mmos and included it into their own, a lot of them were from existant in WoW.  Not all worked when they transitioned over as effectively "dungeon finder...bg's to start" but its obvious they're very much about taking whats working in another game and incorperating it into their own in an attempt to make the best experience possible for their player base.  </p><p> You dont always have to reinvent the wheel...but you can make it a bit rounder and maybe put some traction on it.   Anyway, good feedback guys.  I think i've beat my idea in enough times.  I respect everyone else's opinions many of you made some very good points to ponder on.  I still stand by what i want, but its neat to hear other angles.</p>

Vlahkmaak
06-29-2012, 08:14 PM
<p><cite>Zinwrath wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hang around till GU64.. they are trying to accomplish what your asking for.  Actually I like what they are trying to do vs what GW2 did.. unless GW2 gear is capped in PvP.  Appearance gear doesn't do it for me... if I PvP all day, I want better PvP gear then someone that PvE's all day.  I want it to be very close... but I deserve an edge.  Their goal is to make it as you wish, but give a slight edge to someone that PvP's all day vs someone that raids all day. </p></blockquote><p>Your still comparing PVE and PVP. </p><p>The notion is to seperate the two as they are two different games.  </p><p>** They are not two seperate games in EQ2.</p><p>I'm not sure why you would want to be set for end game pve off pvping.</p><p>** Multiple paths to gear improvement in a pvp/e enviornment.</p><p>But what guild wars 2 did is the moment you zone into the pvp area "where you que up for bg's"  you are immidiatly outfitted in end game pvp gear.</p><p>** Congratulations - you get gear you did not earn? <em> Blehh</em></p><p>You are on the same footing as the next guy in the bg's you fight against.  IT isnt about being compared to someone who pve's all day.  As they are kept seperate in this situation.</p><p>**<strong>Again EQ2 pvp is NOT a seperate mini game.</strong>  That is the type of playstyle other MMOs push. I did not care for it in RIFT, TOR, nor Tera.  EQ2 pvp/e is unique niche game that has of yet not been fully capitalized upon. Aion was prob the closest PVP to EQ2 that I enjoyed.</p><p>All pvpers are just as strong as the next able to enjoy the fun factor of fighting each other in a competitive environment without someone having a gross advatnage over the next. </p><p>** Everyone is not the same. If everyone is the same it is not fun.  I enjoy getting my face stomped in by someone I underestimated. I enjoy having a really tough fight against someone where it comes down to proper application of cure/signets and potion use.  I prefer grp pvp in large scale battle settings in an open world.</p><p> In my example i noted that thats how it is in nearly every successfull-nonmmo pvp game.  Players pvp because its fun, not because they're trying to earn something that allows them to insta kill people who are new, you already have the advantage you probably are more experienced, why do you need a handicap ontop of that?  What you do earn in games like TF2 and GW2 is cosmetic acheivements or titles.  This allows you to still be earning something while you pvp that is satisfying for your successes/wins etc as well as statistics to show off how good you are like in a shooter etc.</p><p>** Again, you seem to have a fundamentally flawed concept of what EQ2 pvp is.  You want it to be a nice wrapped up cosmetic game.  It is NOT a FPS.  It is a MMO PvP/E game.  It is not a seperate little mini game.  Here the game is one and the same.  Albiet we ahve to deal with alot more instances.  Skyshrine PVP ahs come close to approximating the old open dungeon fights one would get while working the Claymore series.  Too many instances inEQ2 and that kills the pvp/e concept.</p><p>Its a bit of a brainwashing to think the pvp-pve has to be connected by gear as thats what WoW and other mmo's of its time did, and sony just copy pasted it to their mmo cause the only game not doing that came out a year before "AoC" which bombed horribly for different reasons.</p><p>** Its not brainwashing at all.  It is the reality of the game.  The gear obtained in the game should be designed for the game being played and this is a open world pvp/e game not a FPS.  When I want FPS action I just log to World of Tanks or Call of Duty.  those are seperate games and they are not "real" pvp.  They are just shooters.  Current MMOs are jsut that too - shooters.  TOR is like playing Laser tag with purple lightning and choking jedi powers.  Its a enal little distraction but it is not true pvp/e.  They are closed little mini games.  EQ2 pvp/e is much more than that.</p></blockquote><p>I am not sure if you actually play on a pvp server or if you do now if you did during pvp launch up thorugh TSO era pvp.  The entire notion behind your feedback demonstrates to me that you do not.  You have several false assumptions regarding EQ2 pvp that I would like to address and correct.  </p><p>First and foremost is you incorrect belief that pvp and pve are two seperate games in EQ2.  In EQ2 they are NOT two seperate realms - they are one and the same.  PVP in EQ2 is a PvP/E game. We used to ahve killer overland contested content where truelly Epic battles would be fought for hours on end between faction attempting to kill something and opposing factions attempting to block them.  In example:</p><p>On Venekor one truelly epic multi hour attempt by Q's to kill Hurricanus occurend in TT while FP guilds and players mobilized to disrupt and block the kill.  There were several Q blocking forces at the cloud platforms and on the range tops as we would fly over head and parachute in to attack the Q's.  It was a massive pvp/e fun fest.  That is to say it is a Player versus Player versus Enviornment all at the same time.  Not two seperate games.  This is not guild wars 2 or one of the other "newer" MMOs where you stand in a candy shop and beat on each other and all come out in first place. This is a dog eat dog world.  It is much more fun than those game.  We do not want to be those games.  If we did we would be playing them still.  we want EQ2 pvp/e to be what it was always meant to be - a massive pvp/e enviornment where we can open world pvp and kill open contested mobs and block the kills as well.</p><p>I'd also like to point out the link you provided was an article narrated by a GW2 developer.  Had you critically read and processed his marketing spiel you would realize it was just a commercial in article form for the game.  He's pandering to the crowd that "just wants a fun game by a company not out to get your money."  Of course he is going to tell you how and why his game is so much different and better from the rest of the field and of course they only developed the game to be fun not to get as large a market share of the MMO community as possible. </p><p>If you like GW2, if thats your thing, great.  Its not mine.  I prefer open world dog eat dog pvp.  Its a smaller niche as it requires a more advanced skill set than does current FPS MMO mechanics.  I pay this sub year after year since launch (including eq1) becuase this is the game I want to play.  I do not want to see SOE pander to the FPS MMO crowd.  I want them to capitalize on what they have and develope the pvp/e concept to its fruition. </p>

Seliri
06-29-2012, 09:27 PM
<p><cite>Zinwrath wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Both game styles/types are fun.Both game styles/types have their markets.</p><p>But we're comparing apples to oranges.  I play EQ2 PvP cause it is in the market I wanted.  I am well aware of the hundreds of game types you're telling me GW2 is releasing for PvP.  I get bored with those games very quickly cause it's the same thing over and over and over again.... nothing changes.  In EQ2, gear changes and is a factor.... and I don't get bored with it.</p><p>It's not just a skill based game... it's skill + gear.  btw... WoW didn't fail, that's the market their in.</p></blockquote><p>I dont fully undertand your observation.   When you say the same thing over and over...nothing changes.   Have you played gw2?   Gear changes in the sense new gear comes out, just like WoW and most mmos.  New dungeon, new gear to earn.  New season of BG's new gear to earn.    This is not something that EQ2 has that other mmos dont have.   SKill+Gear has been a thing that EQ2 copied didnt create.     Also, the reward for great gear is not gotten of skill alone, its gotten off grind.  When wow first put in the honor system before bg's you could only obtain the best gear by having the most honor kills.   The top honor players with the best honor gear on our server i remember dueling and beating them horribly easily, as did everyone else...they were jokes.  People always thought it was ridiculous that they had the best gear and lost most 1on1 encounters.  But by simple fact these people either A) always were online or B) had other people play their characters when they werent online to grind....they were able to have the status of best pvper on the server.     This is no longer rewarding skill alone, its rewarding time spent playing.  The only way wow finally solved this is by making a seperate pvp gear that you must reach a certain rating in arenas to obtain that is better than all other gear.   Outside of that, its still a grind to obtain gear. "grind meaning doing the same thing over and over and over to get what you want, often something you dont enjoy doing to get what you want"</p><p>As for doing the same thing over and over, if you had played GW2, you would know that you do earn gear etc.  And questing is far more interesting.  I logged on one day and went into this part of the world where a guy was having me pick stuff in his garden...i went on to do bg's and came back later that day and people were running around watering his herd of cattle so i helped in and got a bit of exp etc.   Well, i returned the next day and the exact same farm is now under attack by weird worm creatures....after helping dispose of the worm creatures suddenly a giant worm errupts out of the ground and all of us questers have to join each other to take down the giant boss monster.    Every day i went back it was a new experience.   One thing i always loved about EQ and still like about EQ2 was the random monster spawns.  Repetition as you put it is boring.  Having to grind the same dungeon over and over to get what youw ant is boring, if you read the article i put up, in GW2 when you redo a dungeon it changes, and you can even choose alternate dungeon paths (this is done by a vote system before you enter the dungeon).  Still same end result but you change up how you play it.    EQ2 to my knowledge has nothing on the slate yet for this.   But thats not what this thread is about.  I understand the apples to oranges...people have different opinions and this game caters to that market that your apart of, just like the people who literally would be happy killing the same 4 monsters in sebelis repeatedly to get anything...love their asian mmos (aion and final fantasy was like playing an arcade game with only one button that you press repeatedly untill you win).    This has its own market though...some people love it.  I cant understand it but i cant argue someone for having a different opinion.    WoW was a success because it took what EQ had "they openly admitted they based their games design off complaints on the EQ forums"  and found a way to make things that were tedious fun and take away some of the frusterating things about it.   New mmos are just taking it one step further...heck even eq2 took it one step further.  You get a trail that leads you to quests they put in teleporters to just about anywhere that anyone can access..you can mentor down and PL other characters...etcetc.  Infact EQ2 has taken tons of ideas from other mmos and included it into their own, a lot of them were from existant in WoW.  Not all worked when they transitioned over as effectively "dungeon finder...bg's to start" but its obvious they're very much about taking whats working in another game and incorperating it into their own in an attempt to make the best experience possible for their player base.  </p><p> You dont always have to reinvent the wheel...but you can make it a bit rounder and maybe put some traction on it.   Anyway, good feedback guys.  I think i've beat my idea in enough times.  I respect everyone else's opinions many of you made some very good points to ponder on.  I still stand by what i want, but its neat to hear other angles.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Harvest in a farm, water in a farm, defend a farm from tunneling worms...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Your scenario is either a reference to a quest line you progressed through, or a quest line you progressed to followed by a dynamic (FLUCTUATING obvi) or static/stationary/unchanging public quest...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And by all means, what a boring & stale public quest idea...Rift has them by the droves (as did W:AR, R : POT's father) & they get old phast as phehjaeweuk...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Public quests & warfields in EQ2 (& pretty much all games where they currently exist in) weren't requested to be soOOoo dreary, plain, & utterly without diverse & innovating facets...neither were the rewards asked to be so shortly appeasing...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">But seriously, once you obain the latest gear in GW2 from questing whatever new areas, do you really think you're that motivated to play Guild Wars 2...?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Looks like you're invested in a decent number of games & not a true Guild Wars 2 diehard radical extremist zealot of peace... ;o</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I mean, how many hours have you played GW2 battlegrounds, how many kills have you obtained, & is there a leaderboard where you can see the highest kills gained?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Do you ever ask other players what they see in GW2 PvP?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Titles in GW2 PvP are permanent & unaffected by dying (likely...given battlegrounds)?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You may think GW2 PvP is "just fun"...but what happened to Guild Wars 1...?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Even hopeful, compelling games like W:AR, Conan, Aion, & R : POT die out shortly after their initial burst of promising interest.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Pretty sure all their open world PvP sucked & was lifeless & not unique (except maybe Conan, which I think was supposedly riddled with a lot of bugs & poor end-game content?)...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And then most all of these designers somehow think it's a good idea to put some throwaway, overly simplistic slant on all of their battlegrounds objectives...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">IMO, EQ2 has the ideas available to capitalize on a more fully featured offering if the budget & bureaucratic designer overhead allows...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">There are a lot of solid gameplay designs that can actually make gameplay interesting, engaging, immersive, & offer a different feel to whichever pursuit of the day.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;"><strong>Top 17 to do for EQ2 PvP... :</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.) +/- 1 rank fame range promoting rivalry & risk taking in group PvP as diehards progress higher & casuals progress higher eventually...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">2.) Choice of rewards per tier for 1st-4th placement in the PvP rank scheme, every 2 months...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">2a.) Best item in 1-2 slots, SPECIFIC TO THE TIER YOUR CHAMPION IS IN, unlocked on all characters, PLUS 1 or more other choices from the seasonal rewards list in the 45 PoAfEP in my signature</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">3.) Choice of rewards, per tier, for 1st-4th placement in Battlegrounds, every 2 months...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">3a.) Best item in 1-2 slots, SPECIFIC TO THE TIER YOUR CHAMPION IS IN, unlocked on all characters, PLUS 1 or more other choices from the seasonal rewards list in the 45 PoAfEP in my signature</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">4.) Difficult, contested x4/x3/x2 raids dropping valuable loot/components...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">5.) Redo objectives in PQs/WFs to become unique, scene/task-based, stages of objectives covering a large swathe of an overland zone in public quests & warfields, with sustained rewards/buffs, timer resets or reducers, or rare recipes/trinkets/components, etc...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">6.) Multi-region, rare-trinket drops & chances at a ultra rare Fabled or Mythical crafted products from these collective trinkets, promoting contested PvP abroad in various settings, without the zerg...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">7.) Unnerf crowd control to pre-nerf periods & cures to promote functional utility & quality priest support</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">8.) Kills have a chance to drop the player's head on a plaque as a house item (full armor/skin/preferred non-SOGA model type/particle effects preserved).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">9.) Zoning immunity again = 30 sec</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10.) ERASE all simplified global travel</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10a.) No guild druid/spire/wizard portals or bells</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10b.) No quest/zone rewards providing travel to a zone or instance</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10c.) No immunity on Antonican/Commonlands/Nektulos docks</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10d.) Place the otters leading to the Great Divide on a newly created set of Sinking Sands docks</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10e.) No portal from the Great Divide to the Withered Lands</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10f.) No more Guild Strategists</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">11.) Restore classic ground mount runspeed & instate <strong>NO</strong> fliers/gliders/leapers or battlegrounds from Thursday - Monday </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">12.) Revamp & undo Exiled limitations to appropriately honor the 3rd, Free-for-All faction</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">12a.) PvP rank XP gain permitted & never reset (unless new, manual, 30 sec casting, 1 week reuse ability is made)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">12b.) PvP token gain</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">13.) Absolutely NO MERCENARIES in PvP (auto-hide once engaged)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">14.) LVL locking at LVL 10</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">15.) T2 zones given normal open world PvP rules to undo city PvP rule bastardization</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">16.) Remove inappropriate toughness on PvP gear less than LVL 80 (no high crit chance/crit bonus/potency as introduced in 80+, which Toughness was added to compensate for).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">17a.) Free transfers to Nagafen from the FREEPORT server for TWO WEEKS (no PvP offering was given when F2P 1st launched</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">17b.) Cut in half transfer cost from all servers TO Nagafen</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">All being able to compete in EQ2 PvP requires is taking the time to find an active guild with better people that you can leech off of, just for a little bit, to then help people mooch off of you, hopefully... ;o ;D</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Then, if bounteous additions come our way, you find something nice you like about EQ2 that's worth repeating constantly (like being a fame ho, seasonal leaderboard ho, or supreme, rare trinket farmer -- <em>for now, we have </em></span><em><span style="color: #ff6600;">raising up another of the 24 classes, being an end-game raider, heroic instance grinder, contested dungeon grinder, decorator, boring dungeon making, & crafting to become an economic powerhouse</span></em><span style="color: #ff6600;">).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">But right now, there just aren't many challenging prospects once you get fully equipped, & sadly, full PvP gearing will probably take a drastically small amount of time to achieve.</span></p>

Zinwrath
06-29-2012, 10:46 PM
<p>other guy i honestly dont wanna waste time on responding to. as it had a level of ignorance that could be easily avoided by just reading the article i linked.  It is annoying when someone says "that game will be dumb, a good game would have X"  if they read the arcicle they'd see "this game has X"  which is ironic and shows they didnt read...but anyway seliri.</p><p>No i'm not a die hard zeolot i have played pretty much every mmo to date since eq1.  I can give a decent amount of feedback on all of em.  If you want my opinion PVP in guildwars 2 will be successful, i cant say that the rest of the game will be.  Now yes it was not a quest chain it was one of those dynamic events like what happens in velious.  My comment was to retort what the man said about not liking static play.  I found it ironic that he said he didnt play other mmos because its the same thing over and over in other mmos.  I will admit it is flawed in some aspects.  For example...</p><p>I didnt like that i never had to actually interact with the npc's...outside the ones i have to kill.  I never turned in a quest i never went and got a quest...i just happen to stumble into a quest.  Now..the cinimatical events that take place that reshape the world or giant monsters tearing themselves away from the earth and attack you going through phases you m ust adapt to...was really cool and refreshing...but outside of that, yea...i dont wanna waste my time watering this guys cows....but atleast they're trying something new...but yea its not that good imo from what i'ev seen so far.</p><p>Now you say "once you get the latest gear in guild wars 2 will you be motivated to play".   guild wars 2 BG"s system puts you at lvl 80, the moment you enter....you dont even have to raise a character you are lvl 80 with 80 pvp gear and all the abilitys and "AA" unlocked.   This is for the BG side of pvp...you can obtain different looks from a currency you earn playing pvp and doing well in pvp...but thats it.   So your question falls short because..i already am max lvl with the latest gear in gw2 lol.   I have a blast everytime i play it.  It is kinda the same feeling i get from playing any other BG type style game like TF2...except with the twist its an rpg style combat with added mechanics to support skilled decisions like barrel rolling out of attacks.   Its not like Conans attempt at dodging attacks...this one actually fits well into the game and is not a breif increase to statistics but a breif invulnerability.   So timing is everything.   I would play the game even if thats all it was released as. </p><p>now like the guy who posted earlier saying about the glory days of open world pvp...i remember wow pre-bg's fighting open world in southshore and tarren mill "think thats what it was called been too long" those were the happiest days of my life...however i revisited those when i played guild wars "world vs world..vs world" pvp.   Its an ENORMIOUS..i cant express this enough ENORMIOUS world that is contested and is designed entirely around pvp..simliar to aions abyss if ou played that.   With the exception GROSSLy done better.  You have 3 maps there are 3 servers pitted against each other.  You are normalized upon entering "much like eq2 is doing with dungeon maker"   a lvl 3 can jump in and hit a lvl 80 just as hard as a lvl 80...but they will only have the abilitys of a lvl 3...however participating in events in the world vs world will gain you lvls and experience so you can lvl up Pve/pvp lvls "however you wanna look at it" by never leaving the world vs world vs world zones....this goes on for an extended period of time..i dont know what they're settling on maybe a week or two, then a winner is decided and it starts over and your server if you won...goes onto fight better servers etc.  Its like a server wide ranked system.   As such your only allowed to make characters on one server per account.   Now...it was fun as hell.  Its not littered with zerging because thers so many small accomplishments you can acheive for smaller groups to go around and capture nodes etc that will help turn the game around in your favor.  Y ou also unlock pve server wide buffs for accomplishing things in the world vs world...making pve and pvp work together. </p><p>In the end, like i said...i will play this game simply because it was fun..the same reason i play any other competitive title.  And my friends who dont have time to invest can jump on make a lvl 2 and atleast participate in BG's and atleast know if they WANT to help in world vs world...they will be able to do something and not just be a gnat to pick off.    I have asked other people and they agree that the gameplay is just simply fun. </p><p>Guild wars 1 i was not interested in...some of my friends enjoyed it, i did not...this game is hardly a sequel as it feels like it wasnt even made by the same people.</p><p>WAR had wonderful ideas...horrible server they went cheap on every avenue.</p><p>AOC was a GREAT concept...poorly executed ..more bugs than any other mmo on release that i can name...was over hyped didnt deliver on majority of things they said would be in the game....in short "was released too soon, needed another year to mature...2 late now though" (btw open world pvp was not as fun as i was hoping in AoC...was just a lot of greifing)</p><p>I could go on and on about every title and what i think.....non of these mmos were bad in concept....they just didnt execute something right or got cheap.</p><p>Yes i agree to most the changes you suggest.  I think the ability to transfer at a discounted price should happen considering.</p><p>In the end, EQ2 really wasnt designed to be a pvp game.  They've had to mold a pve styled game into pvp.  When they decided to make more structured form of pvp "bg's" suddenly balance issues are heightend because you put people in a controlled environment with objectives and class imbalances and handicaps are thrown in everyones faces.  The style of pvp in eq2 is not that of a twitch style game play that you would find in a shooter...nor is gw2 but its definitly feels a lot closer to it with the dodging mechanic and faster paced resourceless playstyle "only resource for using abilitys is CD's rolling however uses its own energy similiar to AoC's stamina"  </p><p>SO in  the end.  DO i think gw2 has a better world vs world pvp setting?  sure...in its own right it does.   Is their bg's better? i think so....but, they have a budget for it like you said...and designed the game entirely around pvp.   EQ2 was designed around community fantasy..if anything its for the roleplayers.   I think the bg's only went in after they saw AoC/Warhammer and every mmo since "aion, rift, starwars to name a couple other big ones"  that designed their game with a pvp focus.  The pvp craving seems to be high and the moneys there, so eq2 wanted to jump on the bandwagon and add some bg's of their own.  I'm personally not impressed with what they did...from what your saying your not either..but you too see where they could fix it if given the budget and focus.    My first fav pvp experience was in an open world no rules no point environment.....not talking about DaoC ..talking about the first year of WoW.  I enjoyed the random roleplay style "i'm human and hate orcs..or i'm undead and i hate dwarfs" experience that allowed you to engage in all out pointless rewardless wars.   I didnt need to be given anything else but the satisfaction that i cleansed my homeland of evil players.   So perhaps BG"s are just a bad idea for this game..the guy earlier said he liked open world pvp.  Maybe thats what they should focus on.  But like i said in a post earlier and i'm gonna be honest with you....i dont think they're gonna hurl the resources at this game to fix it....i'm looking towards the future of the next eq title.  I'm hoping by giving input that i can help give feedback to shape the next big mmo which there has been rumor that it will probably fall into the new cartoony graphic style with lots of PVP focus.   Prayfully its not corny and stupid.  But as long as its fun, i'll play it.   I only came back to EQ2 because the content and story is unlike any other mmo out there.  Not because i think their pvp is good.  Has potential...but never really had the funding to make it good like you suggest.</p>

Balrok
06-29-2012, 11:58 PM
<p>Anyway.... they're doing a different twist on a MMO PvP option.  Can't really fault them and I'm sure it will be fun and a nice break from PvE.  It's just not what I want from PvP... for reasons I've already stated.</p><p>I think of it this way... can you list a successful PvE MMO that has no levels or gear differences and just rewards players appearance/housing items for killing dragons and orcs (NPCS) over and over again.  You can't, cause their not considered MMOs.   They're implementing a 3rd person FPS/TF2 type PvP with a GW2 theme.  And to be perfectly honest, besides Tera... a typical MMO really doesn't take must skill at all.  At a certain point we all can push buttons really fast.... and this is where the gear difference comes in.</p>

Zinwrath
06-30-2012, 02:26 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyway.... they're doing a different twist on a MMO PvP option.  Can't really fault them and I'm sure it will be fun and a nice break from PvE.  It's just not what I want from PvP... for reasons I've already stated.</p><p>I think of it this way... can you list a successful PvE MMO that has no levels or gear differences and just rewards players appearance/housing items for killing dragons and orcs (NPCS) over and over again.  You can't, cause their not considered MMOs.   They're implementing a 3rd person FPS/TF2 type PvP with a GW2 theme.  And to be perfectly honest, besides Tera... a typical MMO really doesn't take must skill at all.  At a certain point we all can push buttons really fast.... and this is where the gear difference comes in.</p></blockquote><p>Every mmo does that actually.  The increase statistics is just a illusionary tool.   Examp "new item does 30% crit!"  awsome but..."new monster negates 30% crit and/or has 30% more hp"  your always fighting just as hard to kill stuff.  You ever notice you have to keep getting more and more armor...to take the same amount of hits from monsters your level. </p><p>and by the way...3rd person fps doesnt make sense...you just said "third person first person shooter"  TF2 is a FPS, gears of war is a 3rd person shooter.  not trying to pick on your words just hope you understand what your saying.</p><p>and the fact that you beleive that all mmos pvp is who can push buttons really fast just tells me you havent played pvp in many if any other mmos.  In this one i absolutely agree to a large extent thats a big basis.  If you played AoC, it was very common for a player lower level than you to kill you and your friend of the same class simply because he knew tricks of the trade and just what abilitys to use when, and timing on dodging and executing attacks. Tara ripped off AoC's combat and GW2 stole the rolling mechanic, but fine tuned it.   Even wow's pvp requires knowledge of your opponents abilitys to know when to use your long cd spell interrupt or when to dispell kite etc.  </p><p>So no, more mmos are putting in more twitch style play that make you rely on aiming and timing abilitys.  Unlike this mmo, many mmos pvp have abilitys that require aiming.  I put this games pvp very close to aions in the sense everything is automated and thus the learning curve from good to great is small.    MMO's like AoC attempted to widen that ..and to some degree succeeded.  A lower level or even underequipped player...could easily handle or even "faceroll" a better equipped or higher level player simply on skill alone.  I've seen it done...and the other player wouldnt be horrible standing still pressing one ability,  they just didnt have as good reaction or strategy as their opponent.  </p><p>If your happy with the way things are on this game's pvp, then by all means support they dont change it.  but dont ignorantly judge other games you havent played or suggest an mmo cant have skill-rewarding pvp.  I didnt care at all to play gw2 my friend got me into the beta as a favor.  I waited awhile then finally got bored and tried it out...i am not a fanboy infact i did not like gw1 and was dubious to ncsoft after aions failed promices.  I went in with low expectations and expected the hype around it to be equal to AoC where i'd go in and they wouldnt have anything they said they would...ironicly they had more and the pvp felt very polished and fun.  I got obsessed playing it for hours...prob most instant obsession since plants vs zombies (pvz was really addicting..till i beat it..)   The pvp style is heavily based on skill and tactics there are many things to earn to make yourself cooler, and there is progression in lvling unlocking skills tradeskills (like most mmos) as well as earning things to aid your server as a whole.  While you get new weopons with different stats...they are normalized because like i said at the top....statistic increases and hightened level caps is an illusion of progress.  You get geared up at lvl 10 to fight a wolf that kills you just as fast as the equal lvl wolf at lvl 80-90 did.    As you get stronger..so does the new wave of monsters.  If you havent caught on to that, your trapped in the illusion "chasing the carrot".   If you find yourself grinding a dungeon you dont enjoy 200 times to get enough reputation to buy that one item...just so it can be made obsolete with the next content patch and dont feel like the 180 times you ran that dungeon when it was no longer fun was not a complete utter waste of your time...then you might be playing because your addicted not because your having a good time...   thats just my opinion though.</p>

Arckon
07-01-2012, 04:33 AM
<p>Ok Zinwrath lets try to explain this to you another way, and keep in mind I am also assuming you never played on a pvp server in EQ2. I would guess you only do battlegrounds. The players on Nagafen do not want the PVP and PVE to be two seperate worlds we want them in the same. As another poster put in here talking about the epic battles in the Kingdom of Sky zones, that's what we want. I understand that you feel that you should get the same gear if you play two hours a week as a person who plays 12 hours a day. There is not one reason why any MMO should be like that. A MMORPG is a game style that you are supposed to devote a lot of time to. If you can't then sorry for your luck.</p><p>         As for you talking about other MMO"s mechanics and quality of player skill in this game versus another, I can tell you I have played my share of MMO"s. As a matter a fact I play TERA and SWTOR and I will be playing GW2. Those MMO's are coming out with a brand of pvp that appeals to the more casual MMO player. Is that a good thing? YES!!! by all means. As for EQ2 for the most part we all started playing pre TSO and remember the glory days. I can tell you that this update will be a step in the correct direction but will not make it as it was. That would be an act of god if it came back like before. </p><p>    Eq2 has a pvp player base that does not want a "Carebear" playstyle. We all miss the days of having to look over your shoulder while you where questing and making bank runs everytime you had five gold on you. This is what this community loves. You may not like the grinding for pvp gear, but I can tell you this. If they ever make it to where everyone has the same gear on in BG's you might as well quit because everyone on naggy will and good luck getting a match after that.</p><p>    Though you make some valid points my friend I can tell that EQ2 pvp was not your first love, because if it was you would agree with everything I am saying. This game launched a style of open world pvp that I had never seen before and fell in love with the first hour I was playing it. I hope that the changes keep going in the right direction and the server starts booming again so we can have some two hour battles again. </p><p>  SEE YOU ALL IN THE BATTLE</p>

Zinwrath
07-01-2012, 04:45 PM
<p><cite>Arckon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok Zinwrath lets try to explain this to you another way, and keep in mind I am also assuming you never played on a pvp server in EQ2. I would guess you only do battlegrounds. The players on Nagafen do not want the PVP and PVE to be two seperate worlds we want them in the same. As another poster put in here talking about the epic battles in the Kingdom of Sky zones, that's what we want. <span style="color: #ff6600;">I understand that you feel that you should get the same gear if you play two hours a week as a person who plays 12 hours a day. There is not one reason why any MMO should be like that. A MMORPG is a game style that you are supposed to devote a lot of time to. If you can't then sorry for your luck.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">This is a personal opinion.   I imagine by your standards if your friend came over with a chess board and said wanna play? and you said sure, i'd love to...then he goes "wait go ahead and remove your queen and rooks...ive played this game way longer than you have i should have an advantage."  This is the mentality of what you want.  An advantage for time spent in a competitive game...you dont see the NFL saying "look, our quarter back played way more than yours has...i think we should get a 10 yard advance on every play...because we earned it for playing more"  This does not fit into ANY competitive scenerio.  Competition requires things be as fair as possible to where the match is based on the skills of the participants not because one happend to have played more in the past.  In GW2 you DO get new gear for playing more you DO get more gear for getting that lucky drop you DO get better weopons for acheivements or crafting.   But....the gear does not give you an advantage over other players, it is bragging rights.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">Simply put...you already SHOULD have the advantage from having practiced more...why do you need a handicap as well?  How about a title that says "i'm the best" or a cooler sword?  that doesnt hurt anyone elses gameplay or make the match unfair does it?</span></p><p>         As for you talking about other MMO"s mechanics and quality of player skill in this game versus another, I can tell you I have played my share of MMO"s. As a matter a fact I play TERA and SWTOR and I will be playing GW2. Those MMO's are coming out with a brand of pvp that appeals to the more casual MMO player. Is that a good thing? YES!!! by all means. As for EQ2 for the most part we all started playing pre TSO and remember the glory days. I can tell you that this update will be a step in the correct direction but will not make it as it was. That would be an act of god if it came back like before. </p><p>    <span style="color: #ff9900;">Eq2 has a pvp player base that does not want a "Carebear" playstyle. We all miss the days of having to look over your shoulder while you where questing and making bank runs everytime you had five gold on you. This is what this community loves. You may not like the grinding for pvp gear, but I can tell you this. If they ever make it to where everyone has the same gear on in BG's you might as well quit because everyone on naggy will and good luck getting a match after that.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">Ok...this is littered with problems.  To start, i never said anything about "carebear" playstyle.  Also, to quote myself..i said my favorite days in WoW was the looking over your shoulder style gameplay that existed more in the first year of WoW when there was no battle grounds..it was just random wars over southshore or tarren mill etc.  Finally, If naggys favorite type of pvp is open world..not bg's.  Then why would making everyone having the same type of gear in BG's change anything?  Further, if people didnt play BG's...after items were normalized in it.  That would mean bg's arent fun, bg's are just a method of getting something you feel you need which goes back to my last post...if your doing something you dont enjoy because you feel like you NEED something...theres something wrong.    People work jobs they dont enjoy so they can provide for their familys and enjoy life by going to the movies etc...if you told them "hey, you can do what you ENJOY and skip the whole work part"  why would they complain?  would they stop going to movies and spending time with their familys or doing activities they enjoy?  i would think they would do them more if anything..... </span></p><p>    Though you make some valid points my friend I can tell that EQ2 pvp was not your first love, because if it was you would agree with everything I am saying. <span style="color: #ff9900;">This game launched a style of open world pvp that I had never seen before and fell in love with the first hour I was playing it. I</span> hope that the changes keep going in the right direction and the server starts booming again so we can have some two hour battles again. </p><p> <span style="color: #339966;">The open world existed in mmos before EQ2 as well as around the same time and since.  It has been improved upon in some ways.  Warhmmer online actually was built around open world pvp at every turn...unfortunatly that game had no budget and was using an earlier PvP mmo's engine"pre-existant of EQ2"  Dark ages of Camelot which was also a very fun pvp mmo.    I'm glad you enjoy the open world pvp of eq2...you woulda liked WoW and many other mmos if thats all you cared about as they were littered with outdoor quests that forced you to attack the other side or made your quests venture into contested territory thus sooner or later a fight was gonna happen.  In the end this comment just furthers that i beleive that you dont like BG's as much as open world pvp anyway...you want two hour battles etc i'm assuming you dont mean in a BG.  Which in a nutshell says to me your saying "BG's arent even fun, we only do them cause we want the gear they provide"   Well...there you have it then.  Your more on my side than you know.  BG's were fun you wouldnt care about the gear.   You have been brainwashed into thinking progression in an mmo can only be through higher statistics on a weopon or armor...thats because the PVE side of the game is designed around that.  The fact they have PVP stats and PVE stats on weopons and items in EQ2 shows they too think the two need to be seperated because an ability in pve might be op in pvp or visa or a statistic in pvp might be too good pve or visa.  A game like GW2 designed ITS game so they can work in harmony...the monsters react to the same things players do.  There are no abilitys that would only effect a monster..or effect a monster more, thus there is no lower agro increase agro abilitys.    AoC actually was VERY close to GW2 in design in that they designed pve to work with pvp.  Its true they dont HAVE to be seperate...but in games like EQ where they originally were only tossing in PVP as a gimmick...did not design their game with it heavily in mind...new games are.  So they have to take these steps to convert their game....you could either help the process work out with suggestions to fix it, or move on to another title that does care about pvp upfront in its design and thus solved these problems before it even hit the shelf.</span></p><p>  SEE YOU ALL IN THE BATTLE</p></blockquote><p> edited a couple things where i used the wrong word.</p>

Vlahkmaak
07-01-2012, 08:24 PM
<p>Removing chess pieces is a far different analogy.  If you remove chess pieces then the starting block is not the same.  In reality his friend may be a grandmaster and thus he has the option to learn to improve his game.  through amny failed matches he may begin to capture pieces adn make power playes and within a few months to a year of practicing with his frined he may force a checkmate.  That is what EQ2 pvp is. </p><p>The game has a learning curve and a gearing curve.  Not everyone is equal.  Even on day one of open world PVP not everyone was equal.  Some knew how to play their class far better and thus excelled at killing others.  Some learned very quickly the different ways abilities worked in pvp and others, months into the game, sometimes years, still do not understand that abilities work differently in pve vs pvp.  Case inpoint when the BGs opened up many blue server players were up in arms becuase those "darned PVP players" were jumping onto things using jumpy boots.  Many of them did not understand how to use simple things in a different fashion as we ahd learned too. </p><p>We all start at square one and we all work our way up.  Its called gear progression.  What you are advocating is a carebear pvp system.  You are advocating from a position that argues everyone should be able to be in first place all at the same time. </p>

Zinwrath
07-01-2012, 10:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">Removing chess pieces is a far different analogy.</span> <span style="color: #ff9900;"> If you remove chess pieces then the starting block is not the same.</span> <span style="color: #c0c0c0;"> In reality his friend may be a grandmaster and thus he has the option to learn to improve his game.  through amny failed matches he may begin to capture pieces adn make power playes and within a few months to a year of practicing with his frined he may force a checkmate.  That is what EQ2 pvp is.</span> </span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">That...is the point.  Its not the same.  If i was to jump into bg's right now with no previous playing, i would not have the items or equipment that the people i'm fighting do...they would have MORE items ..MORE stats.  I am at a disadvantage.  That was my point.  Rest of your comment is confusing.  I have no idea what point your trying to make here.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">The game has a learning curve and a gearing curve.  Not everyone is equal.  Even on day one of open world PVP not everyone was equal.  Some knew how to play their class far better and thus excelled at killing others.  Some learned very quickly the different ways abilities worked in pvp and others, months into the game, sometimes years, still do not understand that abilities work differently in pve vs pvp.  Case inpoint when the BGs opened up many blue server players were up in arms becuase those "darned PVP players" were jumping onto things using jumpy boots.  Many of them did not understand how to use simple things in a different fashion as we ahd learned too. </span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">Yes?   People who learn faster excel...some people never get it, just like i will never make it into olympic ice skating.  I suck at ice skating...i could spend twice the time as these people in the olympics and never qualify,  Should i get a gold medal because i spent longer time trying than they did?  No....its confusing because this part of your post almost feels like your agreeing with me.</span>  </p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">We all start at square one and we all work our way up.  Its called gear progression.  What you are advocating is a carebear pvp system.  You are advocating from a position that argues everyone should be able to be in first place all at the same time. </span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">Perhaps the term carebear has changed over the years.   What about what i'm saying is suggesting everyone should be in first place all the time?  All i'm asking is that everyone has the same tools. You can still be better than the next guy, you can still have rewards that show that you are too.  In your own words your suggesting that it should be fair if professional sports gave speacial tools to people who played the game more times than the next.  The guy who played baseball for 6 years is allowed to use a giant metal bat where everyone else who only played for 1 or less seasons starts out with a plastic wiffle ball bat.    How is that fair? how is that even entertaining?  how can you even suggest that?  You realize how crazy that would be?  Its just as crazy in this game.....i'm asking that "holy crap here it comes" the BATTLES ARE BALANCED.  Sure some people are better than others...thats competition..thats the whole point of it.   You dont make speacial rules to accomidate people who played the game longer because "they earned it"  my example in the last post was a perfect example...how could you turn that around into saying anything else than i want everyone to have the same tools in competition is beyond me.    </span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">But yes... every other major sport thats on television or in the olympics  punishes and disqualifies players for having  anything that would give an unfair advantage.  If by wanting the same rules applied to PVP competition in Battlegrounds...which is an isolated controlled environment of pvp.   If wanting that makes me a "carebear".  Then by all means, i'm a carebear.    Go watch MLG or any Esport scene, you'll see even in professional video game competition...they do not give unfair advantages to players in the competitions. </span></p></blockquote><p> Edit: accidentally colored txt wrong color.  Green is my responce in these.</p>

Vlahkmaak
07-01-2012, 10:17 PM
<p>1.) I have ZERO expectation that if I were to load into a BG on one of my undergeared toons, or roam the open world questing and pvping that I would be able to stand up for long against anyone better geared than me.  I see no reason you should expect the same thing.  I have EVERY expectation that I stand a decent chance to survive and possibly win against almost any class on my guardian excepting warlocks, inqys, wardens if I know they are equally geared to me in the full pvp set.  I see no reason why you should expect as a fresh toon to have an "equal" playing field.</p><p>I expect to die when I am out on my lessor geared toons.  I am generally always alert and looking over my shoulder and looking for next pvp target on my non track classes.  I ahve options - use an escape totem, use an escape skill, or to stand and fight and learn my class better.  These are my expectations. I absolutely would not want to log into a new game I have never played before and expect an equal footing with players who have more time invested than I do in the game.  That would tell me the game is not worth investing time in. </p><p>EQ2 is an investment game.  You invest itme in the game you get the "tools" you are looking for.  I do not know if you played EQ1 pvp but that was even harsher with little to no attempt to balance any skill or class in pvp.  Thats where I come from.  An exceptionally harsh cruel enviornment where I expect to pull myself up by my own bootstraps and get in the game.  If I do not ahve the same amount of time as player A then i ahve t figure out how to use my time smarter than that player and aquire the gear needed to compete.</p><p>Your describing a game system where investment in class and gear progression means nothing.  That is why those game do not appeal to me and others who have posted here.  I will even go one further and challenge you that those games do not really appeal to you either that is why you ahve no time invested in a single game and have twittered like a fly to shinging bright lights from title to title to title.  You do nto really feel challenged by them so you do not invest the requisite time in those games.  Like i said in an earleir post the laster tag of TOR was fun for a fleeting moment but it could never cause me to lapse my sub to eq2.  Aion was the only game I allowed my sub to lapse to chase end game and pvp.  At the end of the day EQ2 will be here and will continue to be strong after all those other games fizzle and die for those of us seeking an open world pvp system.</p><p>EQ2 pvp was not an added on gimmik as you suggested.  It was tested for several months before it was added in.  While it was overlayed onto a pve framework it is nonetheless a pretty fine system even with all the unneeded "fixes" in an attempt to make everything "balanced" around solo play.  The pvp/e game here balanced around a group mechanic is stellar game play in the pvp/e enviornment.</p>

Zinwrath
07-02-2012, 12:30 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.) I have ZERO expectation that if I were to load into a BG on one of my undergeared toons, or roam the open world questing and pvping that I would be able to stand up for long against anyone better geared than me.  I see no reason you should expect the same thing.  I have EVERY expectation that I stand a decent chance to survive and possibly win against almost any class on my guardian excepting warlocks, inqys, wardens if I know they are equally geared to me in the full pvp set.  I see no reason why you should expect as a fresh toon to have an "equal" playing field.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">I'm not sure where your going with this.  Would you expect going into a tennis match and your friend was practicing before you got there so hes says "since i put in 6 hours before you showed up we're gonna start the match between us with me ahead by 2 points"  This isnt about a new toon wondering into a BG expecting to own anyone...its a player entering a BG at max lvl for the first time and expecting to have the same tools to win as the next guy.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I expect to die when I am out on my lessor geared toons.  I am generally always alert and looking over my shoulder and looking for next pvp target on my non track classes.  I ahve options - use an escape totem, use an escape skill, or to stand and fight and learn my class better.  These are my expectations. I absolutely would not want to log into a new game I have never played before and expect an equal footing with players who have more time invested than I do in the game.  That would tell me the game is not worth investing time in. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="color: #339966;">You absolutely would not want to log into a new game you have never played before and expect equal footing with players who have more time invested.   Sorry i had to quote that again. Essentially my point above stands once again...when you sit down and play street fighter with a friend, hes got about 200 hours more in than you.  Do you expect him to put the handicap on so he has 2x more HP than you do?   Your arguement suggests if you had the SAME hp% or the same damage output...or anything about the match was fair outside your own skills....it would not be worth investing time playing.   That is hilarious, that would suggest you think every major sport and majority of hit video games out there are not worth playing.</span>   </span></p><p>EQ2 is an investment game.  You invest itme in the game you get the "tools" you are looking for.  I do not know if you played EQ1 pvp but that was even harsher with little to no attempt to balance any skill or class in pvp.  Thats where I come from.  An exceptionally harsh cruel enviornment where I expect to pull myself up by my own bootstraps and get in the game.  If I do not ahve the same amount of time as player A then i ahve t figure out how to use my time smarter than that player and aquire the gear needed to compete.</p><p><span style="color: #339966;">I did play eq1.  All the way till planes of power...i remember dueling someone and casting fear then watching them die before fear wore off.  I did this about a dozen times then no one wanted to duel me because of my one spell that won every match....i'm not sure EQ1 is the best example for pvp...they may have changed things since, but like many...i quit after the following two expantions ..i could go into why, but thats another post entirely.  Nevertheless what does this have to do with battle grounds?</span></p><p>Your describing a game system where investment in class and gear progression means nothing.  That is why those game do not appeal to me and others who have posted here.  I will even go one further and challenge you that those games do not really appeal to you either that is why you ahve no time invested in a single game and have twittered like a fly to shinging bright lights from title to title to title.  You do nto really feel challenged by them so you do not invest the requisite time in those games.  Like i said in an earleir post the laster tag of TOR was fun for a fleeting moment but it could never cause me to lapse my sub to eq2.  Aion was the only game I allowed my sub to lapse to chase end game and pvp.  At the end of the day EQ2 will be here and will continue to be strong after all those other games fizzle and die for those of us seeking an open world pvp system.</p><p><span style="color: #339966;">What would you call a lot of investment?  How would you measure that?  Personally I have played a lot of games,...but this is over the span of over a decade.  If a game keeps me interested for even a year i think thats a big success...i must have found something to figure in spending many of my afternoons playing it.  I do not follow a game like a follow a religion though...i only do it till it is not satisfying or as satisfying as another game.  I played smash brothers for about 2-3 years, me and my friends played almost every afternoon we were obsessed...did it upset me that there was no gear progression?  Did i feel upset that i wasnt earning anything new to make me have an advantage over my friends other than the skill and timing i was building?   No...  I played it that long because for some reason it was fun everytime i played it with my friends.  It was different everytime in the fact my friends would learn ways to counter me...or learn new characters or i'd learn new characters.  It was constantly changing because of the people i was fighting were always different.  This is enough to keep someone playing the exact same game indefinitly....why do you think sports still exist?  To keep to the point  we're talking BG's.  A games closed environment pvp..where it sticks the same number of people against each other for a goal.  Idealistlcy you would expect that means teams atleast dont have certain gear the other one does not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">Also the "it'll still be here when all other games fizzle and die"  Look at WoW population...look at EQ2's.  I'm a big fan of eq2 for what it has to offer...but whos fizzling at this moment?  Do you think eq2's population will not signficantly decrease once "eq next" comes out?  Just an odd comment to make...sounds more like fanboyism.  Not that i want EQ2 to fizzle and other games to succeed...but realisticly i know its inevitable someday</span></p><p>EQ2 pvp was not an added on gimmik as you suggested. It was tested for several months before it was added in.  While it was overlayed onto a pve framework it is nonetheless a pretty fine system even with all the unneeded "fixes" in an attempt to make everything "balanced" around solo play.  The pvp/e game here balanced around a group mechanic is stellar game play in the pvp/e enviornment.</p><p><span style="color: #339966;">The simpe part of this to take away from what i said is "added on".  I never made any comments suggesting class balance or anything else around the style of pvp.   but sure you could call it 'pretty fine".  But, the BG system promotes grind to win style play that is not attractive to someone who just wants to jump in and compete.  In the RPG side of things..sure i might want to explore lvling a character in a world getting stronger items to defend myself knowing dangers lurk around every turn.  I would not expect fair fights always...but this is BG...its an entirely different scenerio in itself.  If you like unfair gameplay, thats your agenda.  But like i said...no competitions out there promote it.  I guess eq2 will always be here for people who dont like fair competition.</span></p></blockquote>

Vlahkmaak
07-02-2012, 12:56 AM
<p>You say you want to just "jump in and compete" bu that is not what you are really asking for.  You want the same gear and abilities as people who have spent more time and energy playing.  Both your tennis analogy and your street fighter analogy are poorly thought out nonsensical examples at best.  In your mind they make sense because you want something for nothing.  Those who have invested time and energy can have pretty good battles with each other.</p><p>You want to show up at the bottom of the 9th inning and be comp'd an equal number of points so you have a "fair" playing field.  Not getting those points in your mind equates to some unfair advantage and that the game is rigged against you because you chose not to show up and play the other 8 innings.  Your arguement is akin to zoning into a raid zone with an instruction manual for known strats, ACT timers preset for you, and gear enough to kill the MOB so that it would be "fair and balanced" encounter giving you a good chance at a flawless pull on the first attempt. </p><p>Grinding for gear is a good thing. People know what you did to get that gear.  They share many of the the same experiences with you on the way to get that gear whether its meeting new people in the BGs or pvping in the open word with new team members - its part of forming the MMO bond in the game.  The grind is where you spend time meeting people and killing them.</p>

Seliri
07-02-2012, 12:30 PM
<p><cite>Seliri wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;"><strong>Top 17 to do for EQ2 PvP... :</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.) +/- 1 rank fame range promoting rivalry & risk taking in group PvP as diehards progress higher & casuals progress higher eventually...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">2.) Choice of rewards per tier for 1st-4th placement in the PvP rank scheme, every 2 months...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">2a.) Best item in 1-2 slots, SPECIFIC TO THE TIER YOUR CHAMPION IS IN, unlocked on all characters, PLUS 1 or more other choices from the seasonal rewards list in the 45 PoAfEP in my signature</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">3.) Choice of rewards, per tier, for 1st-4th placement in Battlegrounds, every 2 months...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">3a.) Best item in 1-2 slots, SPECIFIC TO THE TIER YOUR CHAMPION IS IN, unlocked on all characters, PLUS 1 or more other choices from the seasonal rewards list in the 45 PoAfEP in my signature</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">4.) Difficult, contested x4/x3/x2 raids dropping valuable loot/components...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">5.) Redo objectives in PQs/WFs to become unique, scene/task-based, stages of objectives covering a large swathe of an overland zone in public quests & warfields, with sustained rewards/buffs, timer resets or reducers, or rare recipes/trinkets/components, etc...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">6.) Multi-region, rare-trinket drops & chances at a ultra rare Fabled or Mythical crafted products from these collective trinkets, promoting contested PvP abroad in various settings, without the zerg...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">7.) Unnerf crowd control to pre-nerf periods & cures to promote functional utility & quality priest support</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">8.) Kills have a chance to drop the player's head on a plaque as a house item (full armor/skin/preferred non-SOGA model type/particle effects preserved).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">9.) Zoning immunity again = 30 sec</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10.) ERASE all simplified global travel</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10a.) No guild druid/spire/wizard portals or bells</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10b.) No quest/zone rewards providing travel to a zone or instance</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10c.) No immunity on Antonican/Commonlands/Nektulos docks</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10d.) Place the otters leading to the Great Divide on a newly created set of Sinking Sands docks</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10e.) No portal from the Great Divide to the Withered Lands</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">10f.) No more Guild Strategists</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">11.) Restore classic ground mount runspeed & instate <strong>NO</strong> fliers/gliders/leapers or battlegrounds from Thursday - Monday </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">12.) Revamp & undo Exiled limitations to appropriately honor the 3rd, Free-for-All faction</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">12a.) PvP rank XP gain permitted & never reset (unless new, manual, 30 sec casting, 1 week reuse ability is made)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">12b.) PvP token gain</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">13.) Absolutely NO MERCENARIES in PvP (auto-hide once engaged)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">14.) LVL locking at LVL 10</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">15.) T2 zones given normal open world PvP rules to undo city PvP rule bastardization</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">16.) Remove inappropriate toughness on PvP gear less than LVL 80 (no high crit chance/crit bonus/potency as introduced in 80+, which Toughness was added to compensate for).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">17a.) Free transfers to Nagafen from the FREEPORT server for TWO WEEKS (no PvP offering was given when F2P 1st launched</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">17b.) Cut in half transfer cost from all servers TO Nagafen</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">added #s 10 - 13 to this list</span></p>

7foggynites
07-03-2012, 09:55 PM
<p>I'll try to keep this post to the point and clear as possible...</p><p>Doom, Quake 2 (w/ Action Quake 2 mod), Tribes, Unreal...</p><p>I played Doom in HS and solved it. I was a college student in 1997 just out of HS. I started playing Quake 2 around 1998. I played EQ1 in 1999 too. I would go on to play Action Quake 2, Tribes and Unreal and a few other random FPS games.</p><p>(btw, I played M1 Tank Platoon and Jetfighter II in HS.. anybody remember those games?)</p><p>Of all of them, Action Quake 2 was the most fun with respect to headshots and raw hand-eye coordination. But I'd say Tribes was by far the funnest with respect to strategy. You could defend your base, build the base, work in offense, fly on troop carriers (mounted guns i think!), etc. Fun! I later played a similar f2p game where you drove around in a sort of hover tank. You could build bases/etc. Very similar to tribes. I don't remember the name, but it was made by one person I think so it wasn't top of the line - but still fun!</p><p>FPS Multiplayer-PVP games were primarily twitch/strategy based. There was no gear progression. What separated players was their physical eye/hand coordination and their knowledge of the game and its strategies. You loaded up the game and you popped into a "zone" and started counting your kills. Your overall score wasn't stored anywhere outside of the match(es). But as you played, other players got to know you and they started to understand you were good. Players kept track of score and this boosted your status among them.</p><p>EQ1 was a different animal. I played it in march 1999. Was one of the first people! I actually started on the PvP server Rallos Zek and stayed on the PvP servers until 2008. Around 1996 I had started to get into roleplaying games, you see. Then I discovered EQ1 and brought it home. I liked RPGs for a differnet reason than I liked the FPS Multiplayer-PVP games. The most important difference is the world. In a RPG, it's much more defined! Cities, NPCs, factions, dungeons, monsters, stories, religions, etc. Then there're the items. Lots of them. There're not just a few like in the FPS games previously mentioned. They're spread out across a huge world. The same thing can be said about any gear in an RPG. There's so much of it and the way that you get it is so much more involved than in an FPS game. To sum it all up without writing too much, RPGs are a world that you lose yourself in, whereas FPS games are more about the combat, its tactics and the teamwork.</p><p>I'm not certain that PvP ever combined well with EQ1. The only reason I went onto Rallos Zek as my first choice is because I relished the challenge. This need for challenge has always existed. I knew that by enteing the fray I'd have to work harder and know more to survive well. What I didn't know is how hard it can be and how much other playes will grief. I managd to survive it, but many others couldn't handle the carnage and this pattern repeated itself in many different MMORPGs that attempted to adopt PVP.</p><p>The irony of all this is that all I wanted was a challenge. That's why I went onto the PvP server! All these years later, it's easier for me to see why I did that and didn't just make things harder by going onto a PvE server and finding red-con monsters. The reason is I didn't want to have to make my own game to ensure it was harder. I wanted the game to come pre-made and more challenging. When you ask a player to voluntarily make their game harder by killing more red-cons, you make them work harder not as players but as designers. I just wanted the game to be harder without having to design the game myself, you see? I think there should be a much easier answer to make games harder in a more standardized way without turning to PvP or other mediocre routes. Kind of like difficulty settings in single player.</p><p>Another thing is I like to be recognized somehow for accomplishing that challenge. Even if all it's is a little tag somewhere buried in my profile that says "Difficulty: Hard". I know it's just a game and it's all pointless no matter whether it's easy or hard or impossible, but still, I want the extra challenge to be part of me and not just a private matter. So this is probably another reason I went to the PvP server. If I'm able to flag my character as a High difficulty character on a PvE server and have this flag be somewhere visible, that'd make me very happy. I don't want better gear or higher rewards, all I want is recognition that I play with tighter rules. I would <span style="text-decoration: underline;">like</span> to be called masochist!</p><p>Maybe part of me just feels that Aragorn didn't have it easy, so I shouldn't either. Lol. Unsure. But after all is said and done and all the lights are turned off and the explosions turn to memory, I crave adversity and the chance to overcome it somehow by the skin of my teeth.</p><p>(I've also played Shadowbane & Anarchy Online. Lots of pvp in those and they're/were open world.)</p><p>(Would like to remind that all through my time in EQ1 I played various FPS Multiplayer-PVP games. The genres do not have to attack each other, they can compliment each other by doing what they're good at and not doing too many things at once.)</p><p>I'm not going to say anything further because I've already said enough. Maybe I'll say more in another post.</p><p>PS: I have the uncompromising urge to paste a link to this book:</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.worldswithoutend.com/novel.asp?ID=486" target="_blank">https://www.worldswithoutend.com/novel.asp?ID=486</a></p><p>... Not sure why. But I was captivated by a short story in that same universe. It was bout a soldier far in the future who went to an abandoned station to hunt and revisit himself. He has a torn past. Beat up. Scarred. He carries inside inner turmoil. In many ways, he reminded me of many of the players I meet on PvP servers. In some ways, I even find myself relating to him even though I've never been shot at. Something about "I've been there, but too tired right now to talk about it." I don't know, sorry, this is so random to post this.</p>

McDade
07-04-2012, 01:08 PM
<p><cite>Zinwrath wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339966;">I'm not sure where your going with this.  Would you expect going into a tennis match and your friend was practicing before you got there so hes says "since i put in 6 hours before you showed up we're gonna start the match between us with me ahead by 2 points"  This isnt about a new toon wondering into a BG expecting to own anyone...its a player entering a BG at max lvl for the first time and expecting to have the same tools to win as the next guy.</span></p><p>No but if my friend had been playing tennis for 6 YEARS and I had been playing for 6 weeks, I would expect him to have a BETTER Raquet than mine.....better shoes than mine.....better tennis specific clothing than mine.  If I kept playing, I too would UPGRADE my equipment.</p><p>You made an NFL analogy earlier ...look closely at the players ....they don't all wear the same helmets, gloves, shoes, underwear, there are even mouthpieces that enhance performance but not all of them wear the same ones?  O you may think he gets paid to wear whatever brand of gloves ....don't you think that someother brand of gloves would pay him just as much?</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="color: #339966;">You absolutely would not want to log into a new game you have never played before and expect equal footing with players who have more time invested.   Sorry i had to quote that again. Essentially my point above stands once again...when you sit down and play street fighter with a friend, hes got about 200 hours more in than you.  Do you expect him to put the handicap on so he has 2x more HP than you do?   Your arguement suggests if you had the SAME hp% or the same damage output...or anything about the match was fair outside your own skills....it would not be worth investing time playing.   That is hilarious, that would suggest you think every major sport and majority of hit video games out there are not worth playing.</span>   </span></p><p>For personal reasons I stopped playing EQ2 back in KoS.  I was capped at lvl 70 with max AA's, above average gear, and on Venekor.  When I came back just after DoV was released, needless to say all my stuff was WEAK.  I went to open world, and got OWNED.  Went to Warfield and got OWNED.  Went to Battlegrounds and guess what?  I got OWNED.  Went to the bank in Freeport and got OWNED and ROBBED.  That is the way it is supposed to be.  I am a big boy.  I built my toon up...got stronger and soon I started winning some fights.  Now I win a lot.  Am I the best? Not even close.  Great? Nope.  Pretty good? Yeah thats me.....was a BIG learning curve and gear gap to fill but today I am able to compete.  I feel like I accomplished something.</p><p>If I wanna be equal to everyone else and just kill people ....I have a console with all the modern Warfare titiles you can shake a stick at.  Favorite console game of all time was Mechassault, but it would hve bben better if you could have played the game to upgrade your mechs for the online battles IMHO. </p><p>Since you seem to like sports analogies so much, here's one for ya:  People who like Rasslin don't hang out of Mixed Martial Arts forums and bash MMA.  So you can go back to your RasslinWars2 forum and stop trying to steal people from our server.  Also if you wanna talk about BattleGrounds, the PvP forum aint the place ....there is a forum about BattleGrounds .....Thanks,</p><p>Morris</p></blockquote></blockquote>

Charmnevac
07-05-2012, 04:53 PM
<p>OP, this isn't WoW. A fresh start for PVP'ers is headed in the right direction. Quit asking to have everything handed to you, that's what's ruining this game. When people had to work for something in this game, that's when PVP was enjoyable. Now it's terrible because everyone has the same items on and they can get the items super quick.</p>

Twinbladed
07-10-2012, 06:16 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OP, this isn't WoW. A fresh start for PVP'ers is headed in the right direction. Quit asking to have everything handed to you, that's what's ruining this game. When people had to work for something in this game, that's when PVP was enjoyable. Now it's terrible because everyone has the same items on and they can get the items super quick.</p></blockquote><p>^^^^^FTW</p><p>This is eq2 not wow, it's not tera, it's not rift,aion etc. People are lazy, and complain about every single thing, your at a point in the game because we lost so much mainly over ignorant complaints we are down to 1 pvp server, and bg's. This hand me out idea has been popping up since 08. Everyone has come to the point to they don't even play there class as it was intended to be played. You got massive dps doing massive heals, you got tanks doing massive dps...etc. Why? Complaining...Just to prove how people think, go look around at all the new updates being bashed by the player's who play classes taking a hit. They refuse to admit that something they have might need adjusting, but will certainly go head to head to compair with someone else's class. Most of the player base does not stop to think about any class but the one they play. Then everyone see's another class has something they like or envy but they can't get it, it's time to play the this needs to be nerfed game. Then the old excuse for earning tokens and as to why you can't seem to get kills in, or people are ganking you comes into play. The common excuse oh I don't have time to grind out all that gear. Well then don't pvp. Go blue. The player base from 06 has changed a lot. Is some of Sony, yeah I can agree, but I wouldn't keep beating my head against a server that is never happy with anything either. So instead of complaining before something is even released, give it a chance. Majority of the people who have been around pvping there tails off, do not mind grinding tokens and earning gear, because beleive it or not to some of it's not about the reward of fame and some tokens, it's on the edge of thinking of what the other player might do. PVE you kill a scripted mob once, you put it on farm status, pvp you kill a player once the next time you fight them, they change there stuff around. Just like charm said, none of us feel like sitting here and looking at each other wearing the same gear. So this overkill idea I kind of like.</p>