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Ayaka
06-14-2012, 02:48 PM
<p style="text-align: left;"> </p><div><p><cite>Community News wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div>Last, and certainly not least, we are very excited to bring some much-needed fixes and improvements to PvP and Battlegrounds that will be fun and easy to access for everyone. We will be posting details very soon as well as opening up the changes on Test Copy. Battlegrounds, like Dungeon Maker, will allow different levels of characters to play together and be competitive. Also, PvE armor will be effective in PvP again so everyone can easily jump into Battlegrounds without becoming squishy, and PvP players won't need an extra set of armor or be vulnerable while adventuring on the Nagafen server.</div><div></div></blockquote></div><p style="text-align: left;">From: <a href="http://www.everquest2.com/news/article?month=062012&id=51242">http://www.everquest2.com/news/arti...062012&id=51242</a></p><p style="text-align: left;">June 13th, 2012</p><p style="text-align: left;"> </p><p style="text-align: left;">Thoughts? I want to see a set date, to be honest.. 2 more weeks left of June. We'll see.</p>

japanfour
06-14-2012, 03:08 PM
<p>I will believe it when I see a set date as well</p>

Mythiadakis
06-14-2012, 03:23 PM
<p>I'm happy to hear of this change.  I'm fairly new to the server, I started 2 months ago and have a level 92 swash and a 91 Warden.  ( I transferred the Warden ).  I've been really disappointed with what I guess is PVP but is more like ganking people.  It got really bad once I started questing in Withered Lands.  I have no problem losing a fight but it does start to get old to be farmed by people that clearly have better gear and nothing better to do but grief people. I tend to die in one round and I'm usually dead before I even notice them.</p><p>Now I don't need to hear the kind of attacks that seem to be common in this forum from those that like to act like they're PVP pro's.  Like I said, I'm new to the server but certainly not PVP. I will admit that my gear sucks, I'm just wearing the quest gear from the Great Divide and WL.  I don't have a problem with working towards getting gear but if you're one of these idiots farming/griefing people in WL, knowing full well that you have way better gear but still decide to one round new people, Thank you... thanks for killing this server.  People are not going to tolerate being farmed once they hit 90 and  It's probably why I never see anyone leveling out there.  The only people I seem to run into are these obvously bored people just looking to farm/grief new 90's. </p><p>I really hope this change to gear can really turn around what I feel is a dead pvp server that was caused by an obvious gear disparity.</p><p>Let the flames begin <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>One final thought,  if you haven't tried GW's 2 yet, you really should.  The PVP in that game, so far, has been top notch. </p><p>***edited for clarity</p>

razu
06-14-2012, 04:47 PM
<p><cite>Mythiadakis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm happy to hear of this change.  I'm fairly new to the server, I started 2 months ago and have a level 92 swash and a 91 Warden.  ( I transferred the Warden ).  I've been really disappointed with what I guess is PVP but is more like ganking people.  It got really bad once I started questing in Withered Lands.  I have no problem losing a fight but it does start to get old to be farmed by people that clearly have better gear and nothing better to do but grief people. I tend to die in one round and I'm usually dead before I even notice them.</p><p>Now I don't need to hear the kind of attacks that seem to be common in this forum from those that like to act like they're PVP pro's.  Like I said, I'm new to the server but certainly not PVP. I will admit that my gear sucks, I'm just wearing the quest gear from the Great Divide and WL.  I don't have a problem with working towards getting gear but if you're one of these idiots farming/griefing people in WL, knowing full well that you have way better gear but still decide to one round new people, Thank you... thanks for killing this server.  People are not going to tolerate being farmed once they hit 90 and  It's probably why I never see anyone leveling out there.  The only people I seem to run into are these obvously bored people just looking to farm/grief new 90's. </p><p>I really hope this change to gear can really turn around what I feel is a dead pvp server that was caused by an obvious gear disparity.</p><p>Let the flames begin <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>One final thought,  if you haven't tried GW's 2 yet, you really should.  The PVP in that game, so far, has been top notch. </p><p>***edited for clarity</p></blockquote><p>If there was no pvp gear right now, you would be still be getting killed by people in raid gear while you are questing. Yes, you have been killed by people who have been on the server longer, working on their pvp gear. What is the point of having worked on pvp gear, and not going out into contested zones to kill players? Guess what, when you are trying to farm faction in contested Skyshrine, you are going to get rolled by raid guilds, but that is not pvp either because they are better geared than you right? If you want a safe, risk free place to play. Go to a pve server, and do BGs, because I'm afraid you are in for a big surprise, if you think you're going to excel at pvp right away with this new update. It's like anything else in a MMO, basic mechanics. A more progressed character in gear, will always have an advantage over somebody who has not put in the same amount of time.</p><p>P.S It's not being bored, it is having a pvp progressed character, and enjoying the work invested, aka.. killing other players.  </p>

Mythiadakis
06-14-2012, 05:09 PM
<p>And away we roll,  thanks for the flame.</p><p>Your argument makes perfect sense if you want 5 people left on the server.  Like I said, I'm not new to PVP.  Most true PVP players want an even ground in PVP,  they don't roam lower level zone looking for people to gank.  Apparently, in this game/server so many good PVP players have fled the server that the only ones left are PVP gankers.</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">[Edited for trolling. Please review the forum guidelines.]</span></p>

Vlahkmaak
06-14-2012, 05:13 PM
<p>"Also, PvE armor will be effective in PvP again so everyone can easily jump into Battlegrounds without becoming squishy, and PvP players won't need an extra set of armor or be vulnerable while adventuring on the Nagafen server."</p><p>PLEASE DO NOT jerk our chain like you did with the "sick pvp update for GU63."  Give us a date and a head on a platter this time if it does not occur. </p><p><strong>Thank you</strong> for at least saying your opening all gear to us again.</p><p>Looks like they might just add pvp crit mit to pve gear.  That is most likely the simple solution for them.  All armor should have always been usable like TSO so hope going forward this is a two way street.  Looking forward to seeing if all blue stats are going to be useable in pvp or if they are going to be modified on the pvp stat tab. The blue stats will be the real issue and it will be interesting to see what, if any, thought has gone into solving the potential problem with them that they present in pvp combat of if they are just going to open the food gates and let the pieces land where they land.</p><p>I know some people are in favor of full blue stat use but personally I think that as stats are approaching and passing 300 CB/Pot, 600+MA, 60%+ flurry is going to be really "stellar" for the game with the current pvp damage reduction math calculations. </p><p>@the previous guy gettign farmed: Deal with it.  We have all been there on mains/alts at one time or another and you will get your day in the sun too when properly geared/AA'd and in a proper pvp grp - ESPECIALLY s a warden which is by far a beast pvp healer.</p><p>Farming you is not what killed the server.  Many people killing you in the open are doing so because there are rarely other options these days.  Allowing people to grind max aa in instances on double xp weekends is why your out there alone.  Personally double xp should not exist inside instances on Nagafen imo.  Instead there should be double or triple quest XP and negative instance xp over time - that would get toons out into the open seeking their lvls and AA xp in the open world.  Next lvl cap/AA cap raise devs need to seriously consider the impact of instanced xp on Nagafen.  Yes I use instances too on some alts - its faster - I hate it but its where the most bang for the buck is.  I'd prefer to be out in the wild on all my toons not just my mains seekign quest xp like in the long long ago.</p>

Mythiadakis
06-14-2012, 05:26 PM
<p>Plague,</p><p>I'm giving you a new player perspective.  It may be your view that it didn't kill the server, but I'm not alone.  I have a group that I PVP with and we're all new to the server and are about to give up.  The community on this server is very hostile to new players and appear to be more concerned with telling people leave their server then discuss the issues.  Almost every post in these forums have someone yelling down someone and telling them to go to a "care bear" "blue" server. </p><p>I've been holding off posting about these issues for weeks... but thought I would finally jump in and see if a conversation could start.  But apparently not,  the first post from someone is telling me to leave the server.  just classic...  you guys are giving EQ a good name.</p>

Balrok
06-14-2012, 06:13 PM
<p><cite>Mythiadakis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I will admit that my gear sucks, I'm just wearing the quest gear from the Great Divide and WL.  I don't have a problem with working towards getting gear but if you're one of these idiots farming/griefing people in WL, knowing full well that you have way better gear but still decide to one round new people, Thank you... thanks for killing this server.  People are not going to tolerate being farmed once they hit 90 and  It's probably why I never see anyone leveling out there.  The only people I seem to run into are these obvously bored people just looking to farm/grief new 90's.</blockquote><p>Welome.. I hope you and your group stay and "progress" at PvP.  Getting griefed over and over again while you progress is part of the growing pains on a PvP server.  Not flaming you at all... just telling you how it is and should be.  Be a stubborn mule and revive and go again.. and again and again.  Out will these "griefers", as it will make you a better player in the end.</p><p>They're also not really griefing you do be idiots.  To progress a PvP character, you need PvP gear atm.  This requires Discord faction.... and a ton of it... which involves killing other characters.  There's also a fame dealio they are rewarded as well.  Doesn't matter if it's a fair fight, the rewards are the same.  It's kind of the point.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p><p>PVP Server/Forums: Imagine a tank full of sharks.  You enter.  You are not a shark.... Yet!</p><p>imho.. if you have something solid to post, the community backs you.  If you don't, you get flamed... that just how forums relating to PvP are. </p>

Mythiadakis
06-14-2012, 06:30 PM
<p>wow, that was the nicest post I've read on these forums.</p><p>Again, I'm used to getting ganked but in this game it really stands out.  The difference in stats is obviously ubsurd, I hope you would admit that. </p><p>I have the MC PVP gear on my swash... really made no difference because of the adorns necessary I'm being told.  Again, new to how this all functions. </p><p>I'm an old timer, I've been around playing for over 20 years. I started on MUDS where it was open PVP on anyone.  But, the community was small and if you went around griefing/ganking people you had no friends...  except a few other gankers on the server.  What happened to most of them?  we converted them by ganking them back anywhere and everywhere until a truce was made.  so.. what I'm suggesting to you old bitter and grizzled players... recognize that you are shooting yourself in the foot by griefing players.  Have a little respect even if they're from another faction. I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about a dying server... and I've experienced it... totally empty zones/dungeons.  You all might want to think about why that might be.  Yes the mechanics have issues,  but I've seen good communities band together and create a fun/fair battles that both sides enjoyed to participate in.</p><p>I know this is all in vain,  the younger crowd doesn't seem to [Edit], but it's pretty sad to see with such a good game.  we won't be sticking around in the long run,  [Edit]</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">[Edited for bypassing the filter and being off-topic.]</span></p>

razu
06-14-2012, 06:37 PM
<p><cite>Mythiadakis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Plague,</p><p>I'm giving you a new player perspective.  It may be your view that it didn't kill the server, but I'm not alone.  I have a group that I PVP with and we're all new to the server and are about to give up.  The community on this server is very hostile to new players and appear to be more concerned with telling people leave their server then discuss the issues.  Almost every post in these forums have someone yelling down someone and telling them to go to a "care bear" "blue" server. </p><p>I've been holding off posting about these issues for weeks... but thought I would finally jump in and see if a conversation could start.  But apparently not,  the first post from someone is telling me to leave the server.  just classic...  you guys are giving EQ a good name.</p></blockquote><p>Well, you started your conversation off by calling pvpers "idiots" who are "obviously bored." So you come into the pvp forums, complaining about being killed by players, calling them idiots, but expect no negative response? I'm not sure what games you have played with open world pvp, but every MMO with an open world pvp ruleset server I have ever played, you have had to deal with being ganked in a variety of situations (questing, contested dungeon content, running from one side of the map to the other) including EQ2, since pvp launched with KOS. I was suggesting you go to a pve server, because you are disillusioned to think you will not get ganked while questing, just because they remove pvp armor. You are still going to deal with people better geared than you, and your group is still going to get ganked. Try not attacking the community, just because your group is getting killed and are about to give up (boo hoo), and perhaps you will not be met with hostility in the future. </p>

Balrok
06-14-2012, 06:41 PM
<p>PvP and Skyshrine gear is currently pretty much broke.  No one will deny that.  The MC PvP gear you have "use to" help.  With any "luck" the next update will help.</p><p>Just keep this in mind:1. You're playing the game in a broken PvP state atm.2. The game rewards you for killing people.</p><p>I'm not really sure what you want people to do when they run across a player they're "suppose" to kill. </p><p>Do the same thing you did in that very old game you played... get good and grief the griefers.  The problem atm for you is you're not good.</p>

Mythiadakis
06-14-2012, 07:05 PM
<p>the "idiots" I was referring to are gankers. If the shoe fits, well then I guess it fits.  if this doesn apply to you Razu, then you can ignore it. I wasn't calling everyone in the community idiots, that is what you would call a straw man argument you made and you're showing a real lack of reading comprehension.</p><p>Balrok,You're pointing out exactly what I'm saying, the gear is broken and people are using it to grief other players. </p><p>"<span>I'm not really sure what you want people to do when they run across a player they're "suppose" to kill. "</span></p><p>Now that we've established that the gear is broken I would expect people to not use the broken gear to cheat.  Cause essentially what you're saying is that it's okay to farm people for your little token/faction so that you too can exploit a broken system. even though I've already established that they're obviously already using said broken gear since I die in one round.  So why are they ganking me again?  So they can get tokens/faction that they already have?  ok.. makes sense.</p><p>in my "very old game", you didn't have ubsurd gear like today, it didn't exist.  You got the gear you got.  the game was more about the community and having a good time.  If there was an exploit,  sure kids tried to abuse it, but we could ban their account for doing so (after many warnings).</p><p>so, to re-cap</p><p>We know the gear is broken and really is like fighting someone who is level 1 if they don't have it.  People are actively rolling around 90 zones ganking people to get the same gear that they already have to stop other people from advancing in the game.</p><p>Back to my original point,  it may be why the server is a ghost town.</p>

razu
06-14-2012, 08:31 PM
<p><cite>Mythiadakis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the "idiots" I was referring to are gankers. If the shoe fits, well then I guess it fits.  if this doesn apply to you Razu, then you can ignore it. I wasn't calling everyone in the community idiots, that is what you would call a straw man argument you made and you're showing a real lack of reading comprehension.</p><p>Balrok,You're pointing out exactly what I'm saying, the gear is broken and people are using it to grief other players. </p><p>"<span>I'm not really sure what you want people to do when they run across a player they're "suppose" to kill. "</span></p><p>Now that we've established that the gear is broken I would expect people to not use the broken gear to cheat.  Cause essentially what you're saying is that it's okay to farm people for your little token/faction so that you too can exploit a broken system. even though I've already established that they're obviously already using said broken gear since I die in one round.  So why are they ganking me again?  So they can get tokens/faction that they already have?  ok.. makes sense.</p><p>in my "very old game", you didn't have ubsurd gear like today, it didn't exist.  You got the gear you got.  the game was more about the community and having a good time.  If there was an exploit,  sure kids tried to abuse it, but we could ban their account for doing so (after many warnings).</p><p>so, to re-cap</p><p>We know the gear is broken and really is like fighting someone who is level 1 if they don't have it.  People are actively rolling around 90 zones ganking people to get the same gear that they already have to stop other people from advancing in the game.</p><p>Back to my original point,  it may be why the server is a ghost town.</p></blockquote><p>Your logic is outstanding. So let me ask you something, if you progress your character to the point you can be competitive, are you not going to kill other players? If you one shot someone, are you going to feel guilty about it? Are you going to ask someone if they are wearing decent gear before you attack them? People are not rolling around killing you, so you cannot advance, they are killing you because it is a pvp server, and that is what happens. Players kill other players, when the rule set of that server allows it to happen, it is not a difficult concept to understand.</p><p>Am I a ganker? Absolutely. I will attempt to kill a player in any contested zone that will allow me to attack them, from Withered Lands to Skyshrine to Freeport to Qeynos. That is one of the goals on a pvp server, to kill other players. I rotate through contested zones looking for targets not on my recent list, sometimes I find questers, sometimes I find other geared pvpers (sometimes I one shot, sometimes it is a long intense fight, sometimes I die). Yes, I have max Discord faction, a full set of Discord gear, and some key pve pieces that help in pvp. Now that I have all of that, I'm not supposed to kill other players, because it would be cheating, because they are not geared? It makes a ton of sense to work on a character, max it out, then not use it for the intended purpose, because it may not be fair to those who are not as progressed.</p><p>The server has declined in population, not because of people getting ganked (again, that is the point), it has declined because of the negative changes to pvp, lack of any real updates in years, and people who do not have thick enough skin to handle it, and constantly cry and complain (see your original post). Honestly, I doubt you can handle pvp on Nagafen no matter what changes or updates are made. You strike me as a classic "it is not fair"whiner. Enjoy GW2.   </p>

Sasquatch
06-14-2012, 08:32 PM
I have pvp gear on all my toons. I have spent hours and hours of time pvping and spent thousands of tokens on pvp gear. I dont raid and rarely pve. So will i be reimbursed in anyway shape or form? Or is it a personal problem and i have to deal with it and start to pve in order to pvp?

Mythiadakis
06-14-2012, 09:04 PM
<p>Yes, I never gank. In all of the games, to many to list, I never roll around a zone looking to kill people with lower gear than me to make myself feel strong. I let more people walk away then I attack.  If someone is just questing and not doing anything to bother anyone and I'm clearly higher level and would steam roll them, yes Razu, I leave them alone. And I'm not alone,  I encountered many people from the other faction that didn't just automatically attack me while I was leveling up.  I look for a challenge in the game and if this one doesn't have one, I will move on.</p><p>My "logic" doesn't make sense to you because you obviously enjoy bulling and griefing other players while I dispise that game play.  I look for even handed open world battles where they can last for hours. I don't need to kill weaker players to make myself feel good or powerful.   It's really sad that gaming has come to this and this attitude is so prevalent.</p>

Balrok
06-14-2012, 09:05 PM
<p><cite>Mythiadakis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now that we've established that the gear is broken I would expect people to not use the broken gear <strong>to cheat</strong>.  Cause essentially what you're saying is that it's okay to farm people for your little token/faction so that you too can <strong>exploit a broken system</strong>. even though I've already established that they're obviously already using said broken gear since I die in one round.  So why are they ganking me again?  So they can get tokens/faction that they already have?  ok.. makes sense.</p></blockquote><p><em>"to cheat"  "exploit a broken system"</em></p><p>The term <em>"broken</em>" to anyone on Nagafen that has PvP'ed for more then 1 month means the DPS is crazy high.  It's not balanced for a good PvP combat system.</p><p>Are you seriously suggesting they are cheating or using an exploit?  These people you are referring to have earned this gear by the mean SoE has established.  They are 1 shotting you cause they have earned the gear and you have not.  That is not cheating.. that means they have played longer and focused longer on PvP gear then you.  It's not an exploit... you have terrible gear and your getting 1 shotted over and over again for it. </p><p>Yes.. they are ganking you again cause they can and are entitled to more tokens/faction.  </p><p>If you don't get this.. it's not cause your old.  I'm old too, but from some odd reason I can make sense of all this and you're just mad.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /> </p>

Balrok
06-14-2012, 09:12 PM
<p>quick side note.. I don't spend my days griefing poor new players or questers with no chance of beating me... but if I stroll by one, maybe I don't feel like it and move on... or maybe I kill them cause my faction tells me I should... I go back and forth at times.  But you have to realize "you" are a walking treasure chest.  If I don't kill you in passing, I'm losing:1.  % of your gold/plat2.  Discord faction I may still need.3.  A PvP writ update (gold, faction and Discord faction rewards)</p><p>How can you really complain about getting killed by someone in superior gear when SoE is rewarding players for doing so.  This is actually why we are playing on a PvP server.  Faction vs Faction.. it's not FFA were you pick and choose targets based on whether you like them or not.. or want to be noble or a nice guy.  It's the other faction.. they are suppose to be killed on sight.</p><p>enjoy the game bud and stop stressing over it.</p>

Mythiadakis
06-14-2012, 10:24 PM
<p>"<span > the DPS is crazy high.  It's not balanced for a good PvP combat system."</span></p><p>you just made my point.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

Vlahkmaak
06-14-2012, 10:40 PM
<p>Exur asked a very legitamate question.  What do you expect people to do, stroll up and ask you your gear level.  While out and about one has no clue what the other toon is geared like unless their name is known to them and they have fought before - often I might add.  We are using the gear becuase this is the gear we ahve been given.  In many cases we ahve not been given anything new for 1.5-2 years.  We are not cheating.  Its the gear set common to this server.  </p><p>Just like you cannot expect to walk inot a HM raid with your quested gear you cannot expect a "fair" fight w/o progressing the gear set on the server.  You can do this through 1.) Open world PVP writs or 2.) BG gear.   </p><p>When I am out on my alt I EXPECT to get attacked (ganked as you put it) and I try to be ready for it when ever possible, especially on lessor geared toons.  Most people will roll a quester no more than 1x every writ update period and most won't share knowledge of a questor for the very reason you stated - we do not want people chasing them off. </p><p>Your gonna get farmed and your gonna get killed on Nagafen because you, me, anyone else that has responded to you, we are all just PVP updates waiting to happen.  WE are the real mobs on Nagafen - the silly digital blips just add flavor to the game.  We are the hunters and the prey.  <strong>The only thing that matters is what you are doing to prevent yourself from being an update.  Do you</strong></p><p>1.) Work as part of a group in vent or voice chat.</p><p>a.) Grouping is going to increase your ability to overcome a better geared player.  A healer in MC gear can survive an initial onslaught by any scout - I know this becuase my inqy is wearing only MC PVP gear andan older fear proc earring and he can survive, or at elast put up a fight, when out questing.</p><p>2.) Currently use at least pvp MC gear and adorn it as you can with crit mit/pot/cb adorns as your class dictates.</p><p>3.) Have all cures readilly accessible on a hot bar.</p><p>4.) Have Signets and CC pots readily avail on your HB to make yourself immunie, give you power, heal you etc.</p><p>5.) Are your weapons adorned with mending/blasting adorns for PVP.</p><p>6.) Learn something from every fight - read back over the combat log - see what you were hit with etc.</p>

Ayaka
06-14-2012, 11:13 PM
<p><cite>Mythiadakis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, I never gank. In all of the games, to many to list, I never roll around a zone looking to kill people with lower gear than me to make myself feel strong. I let more people walk away then I attack.  If someone is just questing and not doing anything to bother anyone and I'm clearly higher level and would steam roll them, yes Razu, I leave them alone. And I'm not alone,  I encountered many people from the other faction that didn't just automatically attack me while I was leveling up.  I look for a challenge in the game and if this one doesn't have one, I will move on.</p><p>My "logic" doesn't make sense to you because you obviously enjoy bulling and griefing other players while I dispise that game play.  I look for even handed open world battles where they can last for hours. I don't need to kill weaker players to make myself feel good or powerful.   It's really sad that gaming has come to this and this attitude is so prevalent.</p></blockquote><p>I'm really not sure if you know what game you're playing. If a player needs your update/faction to get a new piece of gear, they will go for you, steamroll or not. It's not a carebear system where I'm going to be looking up your gear before I engage and make sure, in your terms, i'm not "trolling/exploiting/cheating" by killing you. </p><p>Man up, it's a PvP server. Don't expect that someone is going to be nice to you. </p>

Splatterpunk28
06-15-2012, 12:49 AM
<p>One of the most disturbing things I've read on here in a while.</p><p>Class <a title="Powered by Text-Enhance" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/#">balance</a> has been an issue since launch; mentoring has been even worse. Even the IDEA that the nonexistent pvp developer can step up and balance either, much less both, suddenly, in addition to reversing and appropriately melding the PVP/PVE separation they've been releasing for years is so laughable that I think they may possibly decimate any remaining interest in Nagafen or BGs.</p><p>I hope they keep in mind the goal should be increasing interest and increasing rewards for participating -- not the opposite.</p><p>And I really hope that if anything is released at all it is a QUALITY update.  </p>

ysslik
06-15-2012, 12:57 AM
<p>Like others said i believe when i see it to manny broken promisis.But  since they mention that there is gonna be no more seperation of gear shows me they were reading some of what we wanted lets hope they do it right.</p><p>As far as the ganking concern I learned along time ago when i first rolled on venekor a few moths after kos that its way of life on pvp server.I learned overcame geared up and found players i could kill and killed them.So yea ill get ganked ill get mad and cuss but there will always be some one out there i can do the same and get a bit of revenge.I came from a blue server orginaly  5-6 yrs ago and never go back.</p><p>Bring back body drops and low lvl pvp too</p>

Kimber
06-15-2012, 03:56 AM
<p>Well they have the potential to do it right.  They have a good place to start if they look to the TSO sets.  The question is will they?</p>

Novusod
06-15-2012, 08:48 AM
<p>I used to PvP crazy ammounts back in the day. But when they introduced battlegrounds and separated the stats that completely ruined it. The more they tried to sanitize PvP the worse it got. The best PvP was long before that when PvE gear was directly used in PvP. There were massive raid PvP battles over contested bosses that lasted for hours. I would absolutely love to go back to those days.</p>

Seliri
06-15-2012, 09:11 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><p><cite>Community News wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div>Last, and certainly not least, we are very excited to bring some much-needed fixes and improvements to PvP and Battlegrounds that will be fun and easy to access for everyone. We will be posting details very soon as well as opening up the changes on Test Copy. Battlegrounds, like Dungeon Maker, will allow different levels of characters to play together and be competitive. Also, PvE armor will be effective in PvP again so everyone can easily jump into Battlegrounds without becoming squishy, and PvP players won't need an extra set of armor or be vulnerable while adventuring on the Nagafen server.</div><div></div></blockquote></div><p style="text-align: left;">From: <a href="http://www.everquest2.com/news/article?month=062012&id=51242">http://www.everquest2.com/news/arti...062012&id=51242</a></p><p style="text-align: left;">June 13th, 2012</p><p style="text-align: left;"> </p><p style="text-align: left;">Thoughts? I want to see a set date, to be honest.. 2 more weeks left of June. We'll see.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">IMO, this update will do little to stimulate PvP unless the classic PvP rank system returns.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The powers that be have consistently undermined an understanding of content longevity with making gear acquisition far too easy/quick.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">When the true mass of diehards are done equipping themselves, there's no more incentive to PvP...unless the classic PvP rank system returns.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">My other threads have thoroughly vetted the clear analysis as to why other PvP rank iterations are concrete failures.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Aaand the juked notion of introducing PvP rank seasons with rewards/leaderboards was quite a setback, as well... O_o</span></p><p><cite>Mythiadakis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Plague,</p><p>I'm giving you a new player perspective.  It may be your view that it didn't kill the server, but I'm not alone.  I have a group that I PVP with and we're all new to the server and are about to give up.  The community on this server is very hostile to new players and appear to be more concerned with telling people leave their server then discuss the issues.  Almost every post in these forums have someone yelling down someone and telling them to go to a "care bear" "blue" server. </p><p>I've been holding off posting about these issues for weeks... but thought I would finally jump in and see if a conversation could start.  But apparently not,  the first post from someone is telling me to leave the server.  just classic...  you guys are giving EQ a good name.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">vatindahphraek are you even thinking trying to think you're in the right complaining when you haven't exhausted all your outlets for PvP competency?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You can easily obtain rares to have PvP gear mastercrafted made for you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You can then run instanced carebear battlegrounds to ensure guaranteed tokens to obtain blue adorn PvP crit mit mods.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If you hope to be at all productive in world PvP (which you can't really hope for considering the mostly abysmal state of PvP population), then you can't PvP exclusively with fellow incompetents.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Broadcast, send tells scanning /who lists ("/ all 89" "/ all 90" "/ all 91" "/ all 92"), & find guilds with active veterans who ARE PvP geared.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Acting like you shouldn't be killed because you suck is absolutely ludicrous & self righteous.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">It's an obvious given that a prime means of entertainment in a PvP environment is adversarial instigation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I do think it's beyond oversensitive & a tad unacceptable to try & dismiss the perspective of your peers as "mere flames".</span></p>

Marnus
06-15-2012, 09:31 AM
<p><cite>Mythiadakis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm happy to hear of this change.  I'm fairly new to the server, I started 2 months ago and have a level 92 swash and a 91 Warden.  ( I transferred the Warden ).  I've been really disappointed with what I guess is PVP but is more like ganking people.  It got really bad once I started questing in Withered Lands.  I have no problem losing a fight but it does start to get old to be farmed by people that clearly have better gear and nothing better to do but grief people. I tend to die in one round and I'm usually dead before I even notice them.</p><p>Now I don't need to hear the kind of attacks that seem to be common in this forum from those that like to act like they're PVP pro's.  Like I said, I'm new to the server but certainly not PVP. I will admit that my gear sucks, I'm just wearing the quest gear from the Great Divide and WL.  I don't have a problem with working towards getting gear but if you're one of these idiots farming/griefing people in WL, knowing full well that you have way better gear but still decide to one round new people, Thank you... thanks for killing this server.  People are not going to tolerate being farmed once they hit 90 and  It's probably why I never see anyone leveling out there.  The only people I seem to run into are these obvously bored people just looking to farm/grief new 90's. </p><p>I really hope this change to gear can really turn around what I feel is a dead pvp server that was caused by an obvious gear disparity.</p><p>Let the flames begin <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>One final thought,  if you haven't tried GW's 2 yet, you really should.  The PVP in that game, so far, has been top notch. </p><p>***edited for clarity</p></blockquote><p>I have never played PvP for any length of time in any game. I just dont "get" what is so enjoyable about it lol-to each their own i guess. I really just came here to say that im glad they are finally giving you PvP folks the attention that has been long overdue-i may not understand your playstyle, but as a fellow eq2 player, i sympathize with your situation. I hope they do good by you.</p>

Rahatmattata
06-15-2012, 10:42 AM
<p><cite>Mythiadakis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>One final thought,  if you haven't tried GW's 2 yet, you really should.  The PVP in that game, so far, has been top notch.</p></blockquote><p>I probably would if I didn't have to buy the game...</p>

Daalilama
06-15-2012, 11:53 AM
<p>Hmm seems like from the promised notes(lol) that the June update for pvp will remove gear seperation least from armor...no news about jewelry, weapons, etc.  In addition no news about new pvp gear (which they promised for nearly a year).  Be intresting to see what other changes not listed if any they will add...heck I may start pvp'ing more actively again...maybe...also be nice to get away totally from the carebear mindset of pvp rules...but I'm not holding my breath.</p>

Kryvak
06-15-2012, 01:06 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hmm seems like from the promised notes(lol) that the June update for pvp will remove gear seperation least from armor...no news about jewelry, weapons, etc.</p></blockquote><p>How would you remove gear separation from armor and not jewelry? If you change the way the stats work, all items with the affected stats need to be changed.</p>

Twinbladed
06-15-2012, 02:08 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hmm seems like from the promised notes(lol) that the June update for pvp will remove gear seperation least from armor...no news about jewelry, weapons, etc.</p></blockquote><p>How would you remove gear separation from armor and not jewelry? If you change the way the stats work, all items with the affected stats need to be changed.</p></blockquote><p>We are taking about sony now, how many time's have we been over this same stump with them. When they go into "Change" most of the time they never go across the board with fixes, they are halway done. I never saw the issue with what was going on not, beside's lazy player's who didn't want to earn there gear. The set now is anyone can go get most of the best things they need for pvp. The new set will be at the line of whoever pve's the heardest will be the winner's. There will never be balance, so there will always be complaining. This change will not fix complainers.</p>

razu
06-15-2012, 09:15 PM
<p>I'm interested to see what happens to the Discord set gear, and pvp critical mitigation. I have adapted to every change since Kos, but this will be a rough one because of the time invested in getting the faction and tokens. It seems it will increase the amount of pvp though, because now perhaps the pve crowd will be more inclined to open world pvp. I guess we will find out soon, or not looking at the track record of previous promised pvp updates. The BGs should get more busy for the pve servers atleast, maybe that is the core reason for this update.</p>

Infernalbeauty
06-16-2012, 06:30 AM
<p>I am not even participating in this teir9 garbage anymore once this change takes place. So once again we have to fight raiders in absurd gear ? What fun is that ? l would rather head right back down to teir4 for my PVP, to hear the whiners call hacks in a zone when their mercs are causing it,and up against a x4 of freeps you cant win against with a group of 4, than even waste my time on this new rubbish. Raiders you wanted this you got it. The moaning paid off didn't it ? Now you can go owning 3rd progression guilds in your best gear. Better yet go slap around poor noobs that don't raid,and only can get SS instance gear in their hands. Eventually that's going to be garbage once the raiders get their hands on the best. Full geared !!</p><p>Pathetic ! ...I also enjoyed wearing full PVP armor that cost 40k, topped  very low stats  jewelry,weapons,and charms from 2007. I can still see the dust on it !! I sneeze everytime I macro on my PVP jewelry !!!</p><p>Rock on !!! PVP is back kids !!! From the raiders choice !! LONG live Naggy !!!lol</p>

Talathion
06-16-2012, 11:25 PM
<p>A step in the right direction, THANK YOU SOE.</p><p>The 9 people left on Nagafen will be happy they will be getting more PvP,</p>

McDade
06-17-2012, 12:06 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Better yet go slap around poor noobs that don't raid,and only can get SS instance gear in their hands. Eventually that's going to be garbage once the raiders get their hands on the best. Full geared !!</p></blockquote><p>I took a long break a while back, when I was on Venekor and the level cap was 70.  I came back on Nagafen and the level cap was 90.....just before the gear separation.  There were warfields, battlegrounds, instant travel to and from anywhere.  Before the break I had a mixture of gear ...Fabled heroic, Fabled PvP, and Fabled low-mid Raid gear.  All available to anyone basicly, from different playstyles though.  The thing is it worked.  Gear had to be earned but your hands weren't tied as to how you could earn it, and you could still compete with pretty much anyone ....a couple class balance issues did exist.  When I came back it was the raiders and people from other servers who were whining because PvP gear was better than some top level raid pieces.  Next thing you know gear seperation.  now i gotta level to 90 with PvE gear because I don't have the faction for PvP gear, BG's were screwed up, couldn't afford the stupid high prices of MC PvP gear.  My full set of maligned Intention gear is worthless because there are new PvP stats that are not on them.  Open PvP in Freeport, cant bank, sell chit, mend, broker without losing all your plats.  Finally got into a guild and got PvP armor made for a decent price (WThedoublehockeysticks no open PvP in Qeynos?).  Still haven't gotten but a couple pieces of the real PvP armor because I dunno what changes are coming and don't wanna waste tokens.  Thing is gear will be available to those who do the WORK, wether PvP or PvE if SOE gets it right....and people who don't will get rolled over till they quit or do the work....It all works out.</p><p>Morris</p>

Daalilama
06-17-2012, 03:53 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><span style="color: #800000;">I am not even participating in this teir9 garbage anymore once this change takes place. So once again we have to fight raiders in absurd gear ?</span></strong> What fun is that ? l<strong><span style="color: #800000;"> would rather head right back down to teir4 for my PVP, to hear the whiners call hacks in a zone when their mercs are causing it,and up against a x4 of freeps you cant win against with a group of 4, than even waste my time on this new rubbish.</span></strong> <span style="color: #800000;"><strong>Raiders you wanted this you got it.</strong> </span>The moaning paid off didn't it ? Now you can go owning 3rd progression guilds in your best gear. Better yet go slap around poor noobs that don't raid,and only can get SS instance gear in their hands. Eventually that's going to be garbage once the raiders get their hands on the best. Full geared !!</p><p>Pathetic ! ...I also enjoyed wearing full PVP armor that cost 40k, topped  very low stats  jewelry,weapons,and charms from 2007. I can still see the dust on it !! I sneeze everytime I macro on my PVP jewelry !!!</p><p>Rock on !!! PVP is back kids !!! From the raiders choice !! LONG live Naggy !!!lol</p></blockquote><p>K...lets take this one at a time....</p><p>You can choose to pvp or not thats your choice.  Gear seperation has only been around since the late part of SF...prior to that unless you want to go back to the days before anyone but exiles had myths in ROK then you have a small point about raiders in "absurb" gear but again exiles back than were not unkillable...other than that the absurb raid gear disadvantage was nothing more than a myth.</p><p>As for mercs in pvp I agree they should be allowed on this server but not in pvp so I agree on that.</p><p>Hate to break it to you but it wasnt just raiders who have been against gear seperation since it came out just about everyone from die hard pvper's to pver's have been complaining bout it...gear seperation was and is an extremely lazy design from the outset.</p><p>As for the current pvp gear...its complete cookie cutter garbage that didnt even take into account the need to pvp potency for shamans for petes sake...they truely need to go back to designing pvp gear like they did in TSO that was essentially the apex of the best overall designed pvp gear that was dual use.</p><p>PVP has many issues with it currently...removing gear seperation will not address all but some of the issues but its a start to fix some of the host of errors previous pvp devs implemented as "fixes".</p>

Daalilama
06-17-2012, 03:56 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A step in the right direction, THANK YOU SOE.</p><p>The 9 people left on Nagafen will be happy they will be getting more PvP,</p></blockquote><p>Tal run along to the battlegrounds forums since you dont play on Naggy....as for the 9 people left jab...lol perhaps if you had a toon here wherein you may learn real pvp strats instead of restating BG strats you may understand how far off you really are.</p>

Kimber
06-17-2012, 09:01 PM
<p>I find it funny when Tala posts here cause</p><p>1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )</p><p>2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )</p>

Splatterpunk28
06-17-2012, 11:32 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for the current pvp gear...its complete cookie cutter garbage that didnt even take into account the need to pvp potency for shamans for petes sake...they truely need to go back to designing pvp gear like they did in TSO that was essentially the apex of the best overall designed pvp gear that was dual use.</p><p>PVP has many issues with it currently...removing gear seperation will not address all but some of the issues but its a start to fix some of the host of errors previous pvp devs implemented as "fixes".</p></blockquote><p>Since we're playing 'remember when', the PvP/PvE stat separation was initially supposed to come out in seasons and was going to be refined to further address damage output (toughness version 2.0, etc).  It was one approach to the issue and if it had been continually developed it could have also addressed class imbalances without impacting PvE.</p><p>The devs decided it was too much work so gave up on it.</p><p>I agree with Infernalbeauty -- the nonstop raid whiners are getting what they cried for.  They raged because their hours of PvE raidtime didn't pay off in PvP.  With that logic, PvP faction gear should be good for HM raiding, or even better, since it takes longer to acquire.</p><p>My guess is that this debate isn't going to matter anyway.  Everyone will be one or two shotted, whoever gets that first shot in wins -- raid gear or naked since the small steps taken to mitigate damage is about to be removed.</p>

Talathion
06-18-2012, 10:52 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find it funny when Tala posts here cause</p><p>1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )</p><p>2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, I thought this said "PvP Discussion" not "Nagafen Discussion" I will leave now!</p><p>Anyways, this is the step in the right direction, and i've given up on class balance along time ago, I just accept that some classes (brawler) are classes I cannot ever beat in pvp. (unless they are in treasured gear/terrible.)  Accept that fact, I did. (I will just bring a Chanter along to burn brawlers down.)</p><p>This update makes Mercenarys from one shotting people to almost useless in PvP, I think a Mercenary attacking me in PvE Gear would actually HELP me more then my enemy now. (because they do very little damage/proc my procs.)</p>

Daalilama
06-18-2012, 04:40 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find it funny when Tala posts here cause</p><p>1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )</p><p>2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, I thought this said "PvP Discussion" not "Nagafen Discussion" I will leave now!</p><p>Anyways, this is the step in the right direction, and i've given up on class balance along time ago, I just accept that some classes (brawler) are classes I cannot ever beat in pvp. (unless they are in treasured gear/terrible.)  Accept that fact, I did. (I will just bring a Chanter along to burn brawlers down.)</p><p>This update makes Mercenarys from one shotting people to almost useless in PvP, I think a Mercenary attacking me in PvE Gear would actually HELP me more then my enemy now. (because they do very little damage/proc my procs.)</p></blockquote><p>Just gonna say Tal your still speaking with a BG's perspective not a pvp one....as for the discussion being PVP it is as in open world you really should be commenting in the carebears section..opps I mean BG's.</p>

Talathion
06-18-2012, 05:52 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find it funny when Tala posts here cause</p><p>1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )</p><p>2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, I thought this said "PvP Discussion" not "Nagafen Discussion" I will leave now!</p><p>Anyways, this is the step in the right direction, and i've given up on class balance along time ago, I just accept that some classes (brawler) are classes I cannot ever beat in pvp. (unless they are in treasured gear/terrible.)  Accept that fact, I did. (I will just bring a Chanter along to burn brawlers down.)</p><p>This update makes Mercenarys from one shotting people to almost useless in PvP, I think a Mercenary attacking me in PvE Gear would actually HELP me more then my enemy now. (because they do very little damage/proc my procs.)</p></blockquote><p>Just gonna say Tal your still speaking with a BG's perspective not a pvp one....as for the discussion being PVP it is as in open world you really should be commenting in the carebears section..opps I mean BG's.</p></blockquote><p>PvP Discussion is anything involved with matters that are player versus player in any way.</p><p>- Dueling</p><p>- Battlegrounds.</p><p>- Open World PvP</p><p>- Arenas</p><p>Thank you.</p>

McDade
06-18-2012, 09:55 PM
<p>If Battle Grounds is PvP then why does it have it own section in the forums instead of being here in the PvP section?</p><p>At least put a disclaimer in your signature stating that you don't really PvP but in a literally defined sense of the word you think you do.</p><p>Morris</p>

Kimber
06-19-2012, 12:03 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find it funny when Tala posts here cause</p><p>1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )</p><p>2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, I thought this said "PvP Discussion" not "Nagafen Discussion" I will leave now!</p><p>Anyways, this is the step in the right direction, and i've given up on class balance along time ago, I just accept that some classes (brawler) are classes I cannot ever beat in pvp. (unless they are in treasured gear/terrible.)  Accept that fact, I did. (I will just bring a Chanter along to burn brawlers down.)</p><p>This update makes Mercenarys from one shotting people to almost useless in PvP, I think a Mercenary attacking me in PvE Gear would actually HELP me more then my enemy now. (because they do very little damage/proc my procs.)</p></blockquote><p>Just gonna say Tal your still speaking with a BG's perspective not a pvp one....as for the discussion being PVP it is as in open world you really should be commenting in the carebears section..opps I mean BG's.</p></blockquote><p>PvP Discussion is anything involved with matters that are player versus player in any way.</p><p>- Dueling <span style="color: #ff0000;">( PVE Rule Set )</span></p><p>- Battlegrounds. <span style="color: #ff0000;">( Mixed PvE/PvP Rule Set )</span></p><p>- Open World PvP <span style="color: #ff0000;">( PvP Rule Set )</span></p><p>- Arenas <span style="color: #ff0000;">( PvE Rule Set )</span></p><p>Thank you.</p></blockquote><p>The additions in <span style="color: #ff0000;">Red</span> should help you out some Tala.  Now go bug the BG's section since you dont have a toon on Naggy and obviously do not understand Open World PvP.</p><p>Wanted to add this also</p><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A step in the right direction, THANK YOU SOE.</p><p>The 9 people left on Nagafen will be happy they will be getting more PvP,</p></blockquote><p>You made it clear that you understand that this is the Naggy forum not just the PvP forum with this lil attempted jab.  Have a nice day.</p>

Ayaka
06-19-2012, 05:48 PM
<p>From BG Forums..</p><p><cite>Windstalker wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We're really excited about the play tests we have been doing internally with Battlegrounds right now.  It's been a lot of fun and we're looking forward to getting it on Test next week.</p><p>Later this week and early next week before Test/Test Copy opens with the changes, we will give you more details -- starting Thursday with a webcast with designers and then with a few posts.</p><p>We'd love you to come and test it out using all levels of characters. There's still tweaking/balancing to be done!</p></blockquote><p>Well, at least our brand new producer is showing some interest in PvP. </p><p>Anyways, sounds like this webcast will have a decent amount to do with PvP, might as well tune in. It's at Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time on Twitch TV.</p>

Daalilama
06-20-2012, 04:14 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>From BG Forums..</p><p><cite>Windstalker wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We're really excited about the play tests we have been doing internally with Battlegrounds right now.  It's been a lot of fun and we're looking forward to getting it on Test next week.</p><p>Later this week and early next week before Test/Test Copy opens with the changes, we will give you more details -- starting Thursday with a webcast with designers and then with a few posts.</p><p>We'd love you to come and test it out using all levels of characters. There's still tweaking/balancing to be done!</p></blockquote><p>Well, at least our brand new producer is showing some interest in PvP. </p><p>Anyways, sounds like this webcast will have a decent amount to do with PvP, might as well tune in. It's at Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time on Twitch TV.</p></blockquote><p>If past experience is any indicator, we are looking at a whopping 5 total minutes discussing upcoming pvp/pve changes and the remainder of the time how great dungeon finder/maker/SOEMote is /will be again.</p>

Balrok
06-20-2012, 11:06 AM
<p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>"Changes are coming to PVP and fighters class for EverQuest II. Host Dave "Smokejumper" Georgeson (ExecutiveDirector of Development) is going to discuss the upcoming changes with Akil "Lyndro" Hooper (Lead Designer), Mike "Xelgad" Ganz (Associate Game Designer), and Brian "Zuglash" Ferguson (Associate Game Designer).  They have lots of details to share about PVP, fighters and more.  EverQuest II fans do not want to miss this webcast.</em></p> <p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>Join us on Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time* on <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/soe" target="_blank">Twitch TV! </a>The webcast is expected to last about 20 minutes. </em></p> <p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>For PVP fans and fighters this is a must see webcast!"</em></p><p><em></em>I remain optimistic and it sounds like there are big pvp changes coming if they called it out like this.<em></em></p>

Darkmantis
06-20-2012, 01:30 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>"Changes are coming to PVP and fighters class for EverQuest II. Host Dave "Smokejumper" Georgeson (ExecutiveDirector of Development) is going to discuss the upcoming changes with Akil "Lyndro" Hooper (Lead Designer), Mike "Xelgad" Ganz (Associate Game Designer), and Brian "Zuglash" Ferguson (Associate Game Designer).  They have lots of details to share about PVP, fighters and more.  EverQuest II fans do not want to miss this webcast.</em></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>Join us on Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time* on <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/soe" target="_blank">Twitch TV! </a>The webcast is expected to last about 20 minutes. </em></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>For PVP fans and fighters this is a must see webcast!"</em></p><p><em></em>I remain optimistic and it sounds like there are big pvp changes coming if they called it out like this.<em></em></p></blockquote><p>Im not very optimistic, The things needed to be done to fix pvp will never happen. Sure making all PVE gear work in PVP will help a little, and perhaps one gear system could open the possiblity to bring back some type of an Avatar mob people can fight over again. But they have not spoken of how to balance PVE stats into pvp.(and if they have please PM a link) I see this update just blowing up in SOE's face, and thus will have a repeat issue with people complaining to fix pvp and there will be no fix for another 2 years.If they would remove Strat Flags from guild halls i honestly would be back in a heartbeat. Nothing is better than blocking a guild from raiding for hours.  </p>

Yimway
06-20-2012, 02:03 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I remain optimistic and it sounds like there are big pvp changes coming if they called it out like this.</p></blockquote><p>These are not the pvp changes you're looking for...</p><p>/waves hand</p><p>In all seriousness when PVP changes are getting talked about again around the same time as all the changes to level agnostic play and similar BG related changes,  I'm not sure I like what they are selling.</p>

Balrok
06-20-2012, 03:21 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><cite>Windstalker wrote:</cite></span></p><blockquote><p><strong>We'd love you to come and test it out using all levels of characters. There's still tweaking/balancing to be done!</strong></p></blockquote> <p>Obviously I desire years of overdue PvP updates/changes to happen all at once.... it's not going to happen.  Many of the things people ask for just will never happen either.  You cannot ask SoE to remove in-game options that all PvE servers have (bells, guild flags, BGs, etc...).  Nagafen is a PvE server first, with all the bells and whistles that come with that.  What Nagafen has that none of the other servers do is an option to attack a person of the opposing faction (PvP).  So the only things you can ask SoE to add/change are PvP related updates.  Remove immunity timers, prevent flying/jumping mounts during a warfield, balance combat, etc... Wish people could realize this and stop mudding up PvP complains with things SoE will never "remove" from Nagafen.  If it's available on a PvE server, it will always be available on Nagafen. </p><p>I quoted Windstalkers update for one reason only... "<strong> There's still tweaking/balancing to be done!"  </strong>This is why I'm optimistic.  Will they fail at balancing? ...previous track record says yes.  But I like that he stated balancing needs to be done and test will be availble soon to see how.  Log on, test copy and help them.  That's really my point....</p>

Balrok
06-20-2012, 03:22 PM
<p>As for the gear changes... I like the PvP/PvE gear separation.  I've focused alot of time gearing up my toons for PvP (only) and PvP combat prior to GU63 was actually very balanced for group PvP.  My hope is these changes don't just trump all my work.... but if they do, maybe they will draw out more targets and that's fine.  I'll start over.... I do recall enjoying PvE at one time cause it gave me PvP advantages.I've been logging in the past few days and working on the access quest for SS.... ugh... you can't work these zones anymore with the gear separation, so this "revert" back is necessary.  Especially with all the contested mobs guilds/groups focus on now (which is great for PvP).  Again.. GU63 added much more contested heroic zone work, which wrecks havoc on the PvP/PvE gear separation concept.</p><p>I wanted to add... you really can't ask them to add PvE stats to PvP gear.  They did that in TSO and if Nagafen had any decent faction raid guilds during that time, Nagafen would have hosted a WW1st guild.  PvE servers would have a fit about it.</p>

Vlahkmaak
06-20-2012, 10:55 PM
<p>The BOLD part made me shudder.  The Fighter community has generally been at peace with each other for the past year with most in agreeement that Zerks need some tweaking but that in general all fighters run heroic content well if geared for the task (not over geared), spec'd and played well.</p><p><em>"<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Changes are coming to</span></strong> PVP and<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"> fighters</span></strong> class for EverQuest II. Host Dave "Smokejumper" Georgeson (ExecutiveDirector of Development) is going to discuss the upcoming changes with Akil "Lyndro" Hooper (Lead Designer), Mike "Xelgad" Ganz (Associate Game Designer), and Brian "Zuglash" Ferguson (Associate Game Designer). They have lots of details to share about PVP, fighters and more. EverQuest II fans do not want to miss this webcast.</em></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>Join us on Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time* on <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/soe" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #0066cc;">Twitch TV! </span></span></a>The webcast is expected to last about 20 minutes. </em></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>For PVP fans and fighters this is a must see webcast!"</em></p><p><em></em></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"> </p>

Bloodrage
06-21-2012, 02:53 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The BOLD part made me shudder.  The Fighter community has generally been at peace with each other for the past year with most in agreeement that Zerks need some tweaking but that in general all fighters run heroic content well if geared for the task (not over geared), spec'd and played well.</p><p><em>"<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Changes are coming to</span></strong> PVP and<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"> fighters</span></strong> class for EverQuest II. Host Dave "Smokejumper" Georgeson (ExecutiveDirector of Development) is going to discuss the upcoming changes with Akil "Lyndro" Hooper (Lead Designer), Mike "Xelgad" Ganz (Associate Game Designer), and Brian "Zuglash" Ferguson (Associate Game Designer). They have lots of details to share about PVP, fighters and more. EverQuest II fans do not want to miss this webcast.</em></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>Join us on Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time* on <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/soe" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #0066cc;">Twitch TV! </span></span></a>The webcast is expected to last about 20 minutes. </em></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><em>For PVP fans and fighters this is a must see webcast!"</em></p><p><em></em></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"> </p></blockquote><p>Yeah and my paladin would like to not get outhealed by a monk. Would also like to have a stoneskin or two so that I can tank drunder hm without relying on healer deathsaves for dts on a 40-60sec timer. Unfortunately the useless single stoneskin they added to loh doesn't rly do anything for me.</p>

ysslik
06-26-2012, 01:48 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for the gear changes... I like the PvP/PvE gear separation.  I've focused alot of time gearing up my toons for PvP (only) and PvP combat prior to GU63 was actually very balanced for group PvP.  My hope is these changes don't just trump all my work.... but if they do, maybe they will draw out more targets and that's fine.  I'll start over.... I do recall enjoying PvE at one time cause it gave me PvP advantages.I've been logging in the past few days and working on the access quest for SS.... ugh... you can't work these zones anymore with the gear separation, so this "revert" back is necessary.  Especially with all the contested mobs guilds/groups focus on now (which is great for PvP).  Again.. GU63 added much more contested heroic zone work, which wrecks havoc on the PvP/PvE gear separation concept.</p><p>I wanted to add... you really can't ask them to add PvE stats to PvP gear.  They did that in TSO and if Nagafen had any decent faction raid guilds during that time, Nagafen would have hosted a WW1st guild.  PvE servers would have a fit about it.</p></blockquote><p>I felt tso gear was some of the best pvp gear. raiders did complain i think even blue servers complained about it because it was good gear for both pvp and pve.Soe listened to everyone else but the pvpers and next thing you know we had toughness and gear seperation that very few wanted.</p><p>I thank soe for finally listing and seeing gear seperation was bad.But will you please see that mercs in pvp combat is also bad if look back in the forums youll see its about unpopular or more as gear seperation was.</p><p>oh yea let pve servers throw a fit no sweat off my back till it starts influencings soes decsion making when it comes to naggy.</p>

7foggynites
07-05-2012, 01:22 AM
<p>The problems with Open World PVP go back a long ways.</p><p>I started on Rallos Zek in EQ1 in March 1999. Played until 2008 every so often.</p><p>Played on Shadowbane and Anarchy Online.</p><p><strong>1. In all the years I've played, the biggest thing is griefing. Always has been.</strong></p><p><strong>2. The second biggest thing is not having safe zones to reliably level up and gear up.</strong></p><p>^^^</p><p><strong><span>I'll adress the griefing problem first....</span></strong></p><p>I'll start off by explaining why there's a PvP-Level Range implemented in most, if not all PvP-based MMORPGs. The reason it's there is to prevent the case where your opponent is overpowered. Obviously, if a level 90 waltzes into your level 10 playpen and attacks you, you'll die in one or two hits. What fun is that? That's griefing. Nobody likes it. That's why it's universally accepted that there's a PvP-Level Range limitation in-place to prevent this kind of situation. So players that're within +/- 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 (or whatever) levels versus your level are PvP-enabled.</p><p>Now that you understand what a PvP-Level Range is for, I need to address something else that, for one reason or another, escapes the awareness of some people. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Levels are not the only way that your opponent can be overpowered.</span> Twinking, raid gear, high numbers of aa's, hacking, and various other things can greatly impact the killing power and survivability of an opponent, depending on which game you're playing. If these things are not taken into account when limiting PvP between different players then the consequence is that you get a result that very much resembles what would happen if there was no PvP-Level Range restriction in-place. I saw this in EQ1, and I see it in EQ2. For example, two different players can have drastically different AA's and gear and be the same level, yet both have a widely different killing power and survivability. With no limitation placed on the PvP, it'll heavily weight in the favor of the strong(er) player. This results in a situation where one of them has little to zero chance of winning the battle.</p><p>So a restriction that's like the PvP-Level Range needs to be placed on overall killing power and survivability. This could be an overall value that represents HP and Resists and Dps and AC and so on. If your opponent is outside of a specific killing power and survivability range then he/she cannot attack you and neither can you attack them. This would be consistent with what a PvP-Level Range restriction accomplishes and would reduce a lot of complaints.</p><p>Another thing that needs to almost always be added to make things fairer is a scoring system that takes into account the overall killing power and survivability of two opponents locked in battle and gives the lesser player a bonus if they win a fight and gives the superior player a negative bonus if they win the fight. This is implemented AFTER hard restrictions are considered that totally prevent PvP from taking place. The goal of this is to reward players who win a battle against an even or better match and to discourage players who win a battle against a lesser opponent.</p><p>Of course, if you killing a single player more than once within a period of time you should be penalized. How this is done can be different in different games and there's no universal way of penalizing a griefer resorting to this.</p><p>Another thing to consider is a special type of ganking. This happens when a player watches another player in a PvE encounter and waits until their HP is low and then springs into action, killing them rapidly without a real fight. This results in the attacking player (the ganker) bieng overpowered relative to the other player. Even though they might both be the same level with equal killing power and survivability, the circumstnaces of hte killing lead to a griefing scenario that's not unlike what would happen if a level 70 kills a level 10 or a high aa level 5 kills a low aa level 5. This scenario is not as simple as the others because it's not just a straight cross-checking of numbers. One has to ask how it came about? Forging answers to this is extremely important as ganking is a very common method used by griefers.</p><p>Another type of ganking is when multiple players attacking a single player. There's no chance for them to win. There needs to be a way of discouraging or preventing players from doing this.</p><p>If most of these things are not resolved then Open World Pvp will not work. Griefing is TOO BIG an issue. In fact, this is the primary reason PvP has not worked well on PvP-exclusive servers in EQ1 and EQ2 and in other MMORPGs doing this.</p><p><strong>Now, about safe zones....</strong></p><p>Many players, for one reason or another, sometimes find themselves not in the mood for pvp. Maybe they're not well geared yet or don't have many aa's or they're just plain new to the game and don't know how to play. Anyway, there needs to be safe places they can go to play the game and not also be attacked by other players. Safe zones should not offer the best gear or best experience, but they should be there for players seeking them out. This is a great way to bring in new players to the game and is also good for veterans who're just taking a break from PvP.</p><p>Instances do not achieve this if they put the player in harms way at any point inside or outside. And having lots of zones in the game does not achieve it either. Safe zones do not have strings attached. You can go all the way to max level in them. They will never have the best gear or rewards, but that's the price you pay on a PvP-server. As stated already, they're great for new/returning players.</p><p>.....</p><p>I'll end it here.</p><p>I think a Open World PvP MMORPG needs special work. I don't think Nagafen is recieving this attention.</p>

Drew1
07-05-2012, 02:24 AM
<p>poster above me...i read the 2 "problems" you addressed; you're being a scrub...griefing/not having a place to level is not a problem in this game; stop crying...its because of ppl like you that this game is bad. hopefully after these changes we can have a little something to look forward to....</p><p>What are they doing  about mercs? I came back about 3 days ago and mercs seem stupid OP especially if you have rare mercs...</p>

Charmnevac
07-05-2012, 04:33 PM
<p>Make me Dev and I will fix your broken game and make you mad cash money.</p>

Daalilama
07-05-2012, 04:54 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for the gear changes... I like the PvP/PvE gear separation.  I've focused alot of time gearing up my toons for PvP (only) and PvP combat prior to GU63 was actually very balanced for group PvP.  My hope is these changes don't just trump all my work.... but if they do, maybe they will draw out more targets and that's fine.  I'll start over.... I do recall enjoying PvE at one time cause it gave me PvP advantages.I've been logging in the past few days and working on the access quest for SS.... ugh... you can't work these zones anymore with the gear separation, so this "revert" back is necessary.  Especially with all the contested mobs guilds/groups focus on now (which is great for PvP).  Again.. GU63 added much more contested heroic zone work, which wrecks havoc on the PvP/PvE gear separation concept.</p><p><strong>I wanted to add... you really can't ask them to add PvE stats to PvP gear.  They did that in TSO and if Nagafen had any decent faction raid guilds during that time, Nagafen would have hosted a WW1st guild.  PvE servers would have a fit about it.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Why do you think they stopped making pvp gear like that, after all that was the way pvp gear was designed up until the end of TSO and the beginning of SF....so complaints from blue server guilds and a certain exile guild at the time on naggy got them changed...gratz as they got us garbage cookie cutter pvp gear that started us on the road to gear seperation...as for pvp after 63 being balanced your kidding yourself.</p>

Charmnevac
07-05-2012, 05:01 PM
<p>Onyx didn't ask for cookie cutter anything, it was the bluebie noobs in faction that wanted an equal chance with Onyx. They feel like they deserve a way to be good instantaneously just because they are on a PVP server. There shouldn't be a drastic difference in PVP and PVE gear, but it shouldn't be the same. If something is different about it, it should probably be the procs. Like Purifier for example, almost useless in PVE, but in PVP it's still one of the best weapons out there. Items like that should be what defines PVP gear.And get rid of BG's and WF's. Terrible ideas on both. You're killing open world pvp. K thx</p>

7foggynites
07-05-2012, 07:02 PM
<p><cite>Drew1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>poster above me...i read the 2 "problems" you addressed; you're being a scrub...griefing/not having a place to level is not a problem in this game; stop crying...its because of ppl like you that this game is bad. hopefully after these changes we can have a little something to look forward to....</p><p>What are they doing  about mercs? I came back about 3 days ago and mercs seem stupid OP especially if you have rare mercs...</p></blockquote><p>You have no idea.</p><p>Did you know I played on Sullon Zek in EQ1? You know how hardcore that's? I never ****** about it. I kept on trucking.</p><p>But I also know that I'm an extreme minority. Most people canont take the same level of punishment. In fact, I think most "pkillers" do not realize their ability to absorb torture. Even though I do not consider myself a true "pkiller" since it was me that was doing all the running and I probably only had a couple dozen kills in all the years I played, I do think that I share my ability to take punishment with "pkillers".</p><p>So I understand that for PvP to succeed it needs more rules to protect against griefing and ganking.</p><p>I know what makes people leave. I bore witness to it. Griefing is at the top of the list. There's a reason that PvP doesn't do well in PvE games. And there's a reaosn that PvP is not nearly as popular as PvE. You add up the "carebears" and you add up the "pkillers" and you'll discover that the "pkillers" are so small you need a microscope to see them. Carebears are in the tens of millions.</p><p>The only form of PvP that has success in PvE games is the kind that's heavily controlled. Bottom-line, most players in MMORPGs don't want to be griefed or put into a position where they don't have much chance. Having some control is a big part of how a player has fun. That's why PvE is so much more preferred than PvP. You take control away and feed the player to the lions (the pkillers) and the player won't usually have fun. You see, there's no strategy (except running) in losing to a far superior opponent. And strategy is what's fun.</p><p>What I was suggesting was to retain the Open World without turning to BG-style PvP. BG-style PvP is instanced and while it does give players more control it's not the kind I prefer. I prefer Open Worlds. But the thing is, they're a different beast and in order to succeed with them you have to give them special attention. You have to control griefing/ganking and you have to have some safezones too. But by putting developer time in the Battlegrounds they sort of turn the attention away from Nagafen and Open World PvP. I think they're so invested in instanced content that they've essentially abandoned any hopes of Open World PvP and therefore have abandoned Nagafen.</p><p>The sum of my post was to say I don't think SOE has -ever- given the proper attention in EQ1 or EQ2 to succeed with Open World PvP. I don't think they ever really "got it." Never understood just how hard it's to do. What's worse is that they've not invested much if any heart into their PvP servers. While neither EQ1 nor EQ2 is a PvP game, it doesn't diminsh the feeling of abandonment. All of this is far more of an accident than it's a work of engineering and art. They pretty much taped and glued PvP on top of Everquest and then left it alone.</p>

Charmnevac
07-05-2012, 07:10 PM
<p><cite>7foggynites wrote: </cite></p><blockquote><p>You have no idea.</p><p>Did you know I played on Sullon Zek in EQ1? You know how hardcore that's?</p><p>I know what makes people leave. Griefing is at the top of the list. There's a reason that PvP doesn't do well in PvE games. And there's a reaosn that PvP is not nearly as popular as PvE. You add up the "carebears" and you add up the "pkillers" and you'll discover that the "pkillers" are so small you need a microscope to see them. Carebears are in the tens of millions.</p><p>The only form of PvP that has success in PvE games is the kind that's heavily controlled. Bottom-line, most players in MMORPGs don't want to be griefed or put into a position where they don't have much chance. Having some control is a big part of how a player has fun. That's why PvE is so much more preferred than PvP. You take control away and feed the player to the lions (the pkillers) and the player won't usually have fun.</p><p>What I was suggesting was to retain the Open World without turning to BG-style PvP. BG-style PvP is instanced and while it does give players more control it's not the kind I prefer. I prefer Open Worlds. But the thing is, they're a different beast and in order to succeed with them you have to give them special attention. The sum of my post was to say I don't think SOE has -ever- given the proper attention in EQ1 or EQ2 to succeed with Open World PvP.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree with griefing being an issue. If you played in ROK you would know for sure, because I guarantee you 99% of the population was getting griefed at one point, myself included, and the population was never steadily decreasing. If anything, it was increasing.</p><p>Based on reading the rest of your post, I truly believe you came here post-TSO and you are completely ignorant and have no idea of what you are talking about. Population and PVP was fun, regardless of getting rolled or not. I have been on both ends of the spectrum as my incredibly terrible brigand and my awesome possom troub, and while it's fun rolling everyone with a stacked group of good players in good gear, beating players in terrible gear with a group of 2-3 friends is a much better feeling and much more rewarding in the end. Regardless, an adrenaline rush was almost guaranteed to be had every single day in ROK-TSO if you were pvp'ing. There were multiple KP's open every day at nearly any given time.</p><p>However, the main issue at hand is some people have had a taste of being treated like carebears so they will feel neglected and think they are owed something if something changes. But I think people would cope with it and enjoy the change if they knew that meant population would return. They need to fix a lot of things about PvP, and while they are on the road to doing something useful, some of their changes are completely outrageous.</p>

Drew1
07-05-2012, 07:11 PM
<p>all i got from your post was that you're weak and you played a game different than Eq2. get over it griefing is a part of Eq2 go level up some where else.</p>

7foggynites
07-05-2012, 07:45 PM
<p>Re-read my post.</p><p>Also.. I could run circles around you with the amount of ganking/griefing I've absorbed over the years. Try entering into a game as a level 10 noob and getting stomped by level 40's and 50's and 60's and 70's - most of them twinked or raid-geared.</p><p>I'm not exaggerating. You apparently don't know what Sullon Zek is.</p><p>Sullon Zek had no rules. People could train you even.</p><p>Don't school me.</p><p>I leanred a lot during those years.</p><p>You'd be wise to listen.</p>

Charmnevac
07-05-2012, 07:50 PM
<p>Except this isn't Sullon Zek nor is it EQ1.</p><p>You'd be wise to listen.</p>

7foggynites
07-05-2012, 07:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except this isn't Sullon Zek nor is it EQ1.</p><p>You'd be wise to listen.</p></blockquote><p>What I imagined from you.</p>

Seliri
07-05-2012, 09:34 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">anyone have cliffs on whether something useful was said in this thread? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

spudsmckenzie2
07-06-2012, 08:01 PM
<p>instead of having warfields, bring back avatars so we can gank onyx members mid pull<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />.</p><p>this kind of pvp was far more exciting then boring warfields and there was alot more open world pvp that spawned around these events....</p><p>no scarebear stuff please</p>

Charmnevac
07-06-2012, 11:59 PM
<p><cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>instead of having warfields, bring back avatars so we can gank onyx members mid pull<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />.</p><p>this kind of pvp was far more exciting then boring warfields and there was alot more open world pvp that spawned around these events....</p><p>no scarebear stuff please</p></blockquote><p>QFE. It likely won't happen though, as avatars are a PVE aspect and would have to go across every server. So unless it's planned already, I don't think this will happen ;(</p>