PDA

View Full Version : Risk VS Reward - An Experiment... and suggestions.


Pixiewrath
03-19-2012, 10:38 AM
<p>I have made three (soon four) really neat dungeons with story, decoration, strong mobs (yet very killable without dying) as you can see <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=511689�" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">in this thread</span></a>.However, despite being challenging and taking around 50-70 minutes to solo, each, the token rewards are horrible and lands on around 110-150 tokens.Tired of seeing an infinite list of token grinding dungeons that promise 100 tokens in 2 minutes and so on, I decided to do a little experimentation on the Risk VS Reward system. And the current system can be abused a lot to gain tons of tokens with minimum effort, as my "666 tokens in 80 minutes" dungeon proved. Not going by that name, but that principle.What I did was that I used the multiple down tiering to reduce mob's tier so they became weak, and then put them inside each other, and buffed them with one of each effect object (dual spell effects) but left out the health booster effects.This gave me a heap of mobs where each mob gave roughly one token and died in 3-4 seconds due to weak health.Compared to the other mobs in my normal serious dungeons that took 15-20 seconds or more each to kill and gave about one token each too.The result of this is that one can gain an insane amount of tokens at a 3-4 times faster rate in a dungeon based on weak buffed mobs, rather than super strong buffed ones.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>How to fix this unbalance.</strong></span>The best way I can think of to change tier up/down and health boosting effect objects to instead of giving a constant value like 20 - 50 tokens more or less, etc, make them a variable based on how many effect objects the current target already have.For example, a mob which has damaging spell effects, potency increase, greater awareness and tier up + HP increase should get (spell effect+potency+awareness x (mob level+tier+HP mod)).  Thus preventing downtiered mobs from giving plentiful tokens and strong mobs from giving away too few tokens.The way these down tier and up tier / health objects currently work encourage people to not make the mobs difficult because the rewards are better if they are weak. I like to make serious dungeons that aren't super easy but not too hard either, but today's system actually punishes dungeons that take a lot of time to finish due to mob's high tier or HP.The reason to use the variable multiplier instead of simply adding constant tokens is because adding more HP on a mob without other buffs increase the reward pretty little today, but with tons of more dmg and so on, it gives even less reward versus the challenge it adds to a mob with all other buffs. HP goes a long way for difficulty. Especially on the mobs that are also up tiered one step. In 5-6 man groups they become epic killing machines. Also, if HP up was increased with a constant token value instead of a variable increase, that could be abused for easy tokens as well by adding HP buff but no other buffs. For that reason a variable increase would be better than today's system.If this changed, it would discourage the endless token farming dungeons and encourage serious designing and balancing as well.If anyone want to test what I mean, you can try the dungeon "Delving into the Depths - Part III" on Freeport server (HoF Section) and then try to kill only the mobs in the first room of my test dungeon "Ultima 666 Token Run" on the same server to see that my statements are indeed true. The first room alone in the later dungeon takes 5-6 minutes only and award 50 tokens by itself, whereas the former is much harder and gives 150 tokens after about an hour of adventuring.Thoughts on this?And, as a side note, I also still think there should be Dev picks with boosted token rates for dungeons which are very well made to once again discourage token grinds.</p>

TJackal
03-22-2012, 01:38 PM
<p>I followed some of the things you mentione din your email, and you're right - there is a serious flaw in the Dungeon Maker.  I made a dungeon called "624 AoE Slaughter Fest" following some of the things you mentioned.  I literally have groups of 12 Genies which can be slaughtered by two players with AoE in about 10 seconds.  The funny thing is that I could double it to 24 Genies per group and they would all fall just as fast.  My entire first room gives 70 something tokens, and takes no more than 5 mins.  That's 18,000 xp and 70+ tokens in 5 minutes! Two of us do the entire dungeon in about 40 minutes - that's about 120K xp and 624 tokens in less than an hour!   Obviously that's ridiculous, and it almost feels like an exploit.</p><p>Anyhow, I definitely agree with your post - something does need to be done so that great dungeons like your "Delving int the Depths" give a better reward then my slaughterfest dungeon which takes zero effort and gives riduculous high rewards.  I mean, I literally run my alts in the dungeon and I gain 2 levels every 10 minutes.</p><p>I've been wanting to build a really cool dungeon like the three you've built, but I keep finding myself building token grind dungeons - just to see how many monsters I can group together and is still doable.  I agree - as long as the rewards are high for grinding dungeons then we won't see people make really neat ones.  I would like to see some more neat ones made.</p>

Pixiewrath
03-22-2012, 05:21 PM
<p>There are a few neatly made ones. But it's a mess to find them in this excess of grinds.So far on Freeport server I have only found two I really liked (aside from my own ofc)."Everquest 1999" and one called... "Tel's Funeral" or "Tel's Wedding" or something like that. Always forget the name of it cause it's so long <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />The latter have a bit too many mobs in some rooms though, but the design is great. Not so many objects in each room that it get framedrops, but not so few it barely is decorated either. Pretty perfect story- and decorationwise.A guild mate of mine did a really neat one too, but the starting part of it was a bit bland. The second half was awesome.But I digress.The point was to point out that it isn't so much challenge vs reward today, but more like easiness vs reward...HP and Tier up add way more difficulty than the rest of the things you can add as mob buffs. Not only because of more dmg recieved from the mobs due to health, but also due to (esp in 5-6 man groups) mana management since you might run out on high HP mobs if you dont use it efficiently.But since a HP buffed mob with extra effects provide significantly more challenge than just a normal mob with dmg buffs etc, it would only be logic to let HP buffs increase with the rest of the buffs.If you do add stun/daze/knockback, the mobs become harder though, but then again, that can also be applied to mobs with HP buffs. Making them death machines in a full group if you aren't careful with adds.As another side note, I think a 5-6 man group should earn more tokens than soloing a dungeon will give. As it is now there is no reason to look for a group for 30 mins to play a player dungeon when you can spend that time soloing it for the same token reward. Would encourage grouping which will make it a funnier experience (grouping is a lot funnier than soloing them) and also at the same time reward the creators more.</p>

Pixiewrath
03-22-2012, 05:26 PM
<p>Did you try my dungeons btw? You are on Everfrost, but they are on Freeport?</p>

The_Cheeseman
03-23-2012, 11:14 AM
<p>You know what's ironic? I made a dungeon using this strategy weeks ago (though mine is worth 928 tokens per run, solo) just so I could acquire enough tokens to buy all the spawners and decoration sets to build some interesting storyline dungeons. My farm dungeon has since been inducted into the Hall of Fame and become the most popular Player-Made dungeon on my server. People even form groups in level chat to run run it, which doesn't happen for real dungeons all that often!</p><p>The storyline dungeons I made haven't even been touched.</p><p>Honestly, this is exactly what I said would happen months ago when they first revealed the plan to add player-made content. I was really surprised that nobody had made a decent token-farming dungeon until I ended-up having to make one myself, since I didn't even pay attention to Dungeon Maker until I got my Beastlord to 90 and earned his epic. I suppose SOE can go ahead and nerf it now, since I've already earned thousands of free tokens and a Hall of Fame trophy from it.</p><p>On the other hand, it does make a great exp grind for alts, and a fairly efficient cash farm as well, if you spend all the tokens on mystery crates and then sell the proceeds. Who knows, perhaps if enough people discover how efficient it is, sales of AoD will go up? </conspiracytheory></p>

TJackal
03-23-2012, 01:56 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Did you try my dungeons btw? You are on Everfrost, but they are on Freeport?</p></blockquote><p>lol.  I'm actually on the Freeport server.  This account was originally my ex's account, but it's now mine - my character is Shaeralyn, not Aeryon =).  Guess I should change that if I can.  Anyhow yeah, I started your Ultima dungeon, and your delving into the depths dungeon.  Tonight I plan to run your trilogy.  </p><p>Actually, my token grind dungeon is listed right below yours on Freeport - it's under Lair of Scale named 624 AoE Slaughter Fest (something like that).  My original attempt at a token grind was called "Massive 324 160K xp Run," which people still run and hit HoF in a week.  That dungeon was a tough run, but people keep doing it.  THe irony is that the 624 dungeon is so simple, but people have stayed away (maybe afraid that the 624 token will take hours or something?)  Seriously though, you have to see what a joke it is.  Grab a friend, both pick an AoE Avatar, and time yourself on how fast you can clear the first room.  It's ridiculous.  </p><p>The irony is that I could make the mobs a size of about 30 instead of 12 and it would only be slightly harder.  The reason I kept it at 12 is 'cause I found that was just the perfect amount to solo when I want to token grind really quick.  Like I said - the first room takes me 5 mins, and I get 70(?) tokens from it.  I just run in and out of the place.  I have so many tokens now I don't even know what to do with them all.  Was planning on making a really cool theme dungeon, but I think I'll wait until they fix DM to reward cool dungeons.  For now, I know that if I do a themed dungeon it will sit there unused =/</p><p>Anyhow, I'm looking forward to completing your trilogy tonight!</p>

Pixiewrath
03-23-2012, 07:39 PM
<p>I've had pretty much people running my story line dungeons, especially when DM was new.But if one person run the entire token run dungeon, I get enough for 4 runs on a normal one which is harder. Not okay.Unless they nerf the hp/tier buffs to meet the difficulty, the only way I can see for this to be fair is to increase the token gain on the wellmade dungeons by 3-400%. That is an insane increase, but it shows how insanely unbalanced the system is as well.I am pretty sure that people would stop running token farms more or less if they got the same token/minute award for the well made ones, or better.While I definitely think dev pick dungeons should be awarded well with bonuses and such (and perhaps increased drop chances if we ever get chest drops in them *hope hope*), I can see the problem for the devs to go through all the dungeons that exist on all servers.Even if they can spectate them to see the design, it's hard to check difficulty balance without actually running them, which I think is the worst problem for a suggestion like this. There is only so much the devs can do in so little time.Guide recommendations could be one way to help out, but new guides could abuse the system...</p>

The_Cheeseman
03-24-2012, 05:51 AM
<p>If SOE nerfs the rewards for token farm dungeons, it will cause people to stop running them. It will not suddenly increase interest in storyline dungeons, however. From what I have heard from people running my token farm dungeon, they are only doing it because it is an efficient means of farming exp or cash. If the rewards were nerfed, they wouldn't be running player-made dungeons at all.</p><p>This is the same thing that always happens when player-made content is introduced in MMOs. Most players are terrible game designers, so the vast majority of player-made content isn't worth doing. The rare quality pieces are so lost in a jumble of garbage that people aren't willing to waste their time looking for them. The rewards simply aren't good enough to bother.</p><p>Player made content will only be popular while it can be exploited for sufficient rewards. If those rewards are reduced, the general population will lose all interest in the feature and go back to consuming the real, quality content in the game. I've personally watched it happen in other games that have tried player-made content, and the pattern never changes.</p>

Pixiewrath
03-24-2012, 09:37 AM
<p>But was the point of the dungeon maker in the first place to let people be creative and award that, or to let people farm tokens for items?If something isn't done about this token grinding insanity, it will never become what it was intended to be.I like to run serious dungeons but it's hard to find in this insane mess of token grinds. I generally don't like browsing 30 pages per dungeon type to try and find the well-done dungeons between all token grinds.Especially since some of them only decorate one room, take a screenshot for the dungeon and leave the rest of the dungeon completely barren.But that is not the point of the thread, really.The point is that it can't be supposed to be that a dungeon without challenge rewards 3-4 times more tokens than one which does. The way tokens from mobs are calculated needs to be rewritten.If tier/hp down/up was made into multiplificators instead of plain token increases (like x0.20 for Tier down IV and x 2 for Tier up I, 50 % hp increase gave x1.50 extra tokens etc) it would represent the challenge rating much better than it does now as it would give risk vs reward which is the entire point of the system with challenge ratings, which is now non-risk vs reward.Challenging dungeons dont give tokens much, while easy ones are grindfests.</p>

Naax
03-24-2012, 01:09 PM
<p>Personally I hate dungeons that are decorated with plants and plushies and crap. I went in one and couldn't tell what was a mob and what wasn't. Then all the mobs were hiding in the flora where you couldn't attack them but they could attack you.</p><p>I'm not there to look at all the pretty scenery, I'm there to kill stuff and I could care less how pretty you make it. In fact I would rather it be totally bare save for the mobs so I can get on to bussiness. Save the decorations for your house.</p><p>Oh and yeah if there are no rewards for running them, or not much of a reward then why bother even having them? I bought the expansion so I could get them and if Sony goes and gets rid of them then everyone just wasted money on it. I don't see a need to change them at all. If someone doesn't like people farming them well that's just too bad, they don't have to buy the expansion and can shut up and mind their own bussiness. We paid extra for it so we shouldn't get the shaft cuz of some whinners.</p>

NITROX-UANG
03-24-2012, 09:43 PM
<p>I would like to get some specifics on how to design for this.</p><p>I have tried, using a single mob, in stacks of 3-15 with different effects to boost the value /marks vlaue</p><p>There is a limit on the number of effects that can be added to a dungeon, 4 or 5 is the limit I have been hitting.</p><p>I also picked up several of the Level Down and Tier Down effects while running tests on the various numbers (and earning marks)</p><p>I cannot get a good stack size in a single room that benefits from the effects and dies fast that really adds to any significant value for a dungeon </p><p>I can flood a dungeon with mobs for 1,000 marks, but to take that 1,000 mark dungeon and start dropping reducers to tier or level, making them easier kills, and worth less marks is limited by the limti per dungeon I've been running into.</p><p>Flooding rooms with the mobs has the opposite effect, the adventurers get needled to death with small damages, lots of interrupts, etc..  Unless this can only be done with a certain mob type.</p><p>But that brings me back to my original question -- what is the specific combinations, or designs that can work to generate a marks farm?</p><p>I did find your Ultima Grind dungeon Pixiewrath and liek the opening book. I'm watching the effects on the mobs trying to figure out why you didn't get hit with this "Youve used all of that item you can" problem I am getting</p><p>Pixiewrath, I did a quote 150 mark run and see your using stacks of 6, 7 or 8. And the spacing is nice.  I am using the Erollisis Day AoE fighter. The size is perfect for that avatar. Reflect, AoE, auto attack till they come up and quick recovery. But man I still don't understand how every mob in your stacks is reduced. In a room like that I was getting anything from two down to a one up, as if the reducer effect wears out</p>

Pixiewrath
03-24-2012, 10:12 PM
<p>I don't understand what you mean.You know there are ones called tier down (multiple) and tier down (single) right?If you use tier down multiple it affects all mobs in the entire room. Single only affects one target.Other than that I am not sure what you mean...</p>

Talathion
03-25-2012, 04:51 AM
<p><span style="font-size: small;">I will only be interested in your dungeons if I can run my own character in them.</span></p>

NITROX-UANG
03-26-2012, 12:22 PM
<p>Pixie, in your dungeon, you have the mobs in stacks of 6, 7 or 8. And in each room you have a single modifier for extra damage or extra range (out of game so dont have the exact modifier names)</p><p>But you are putting down how many Down tier or down level multiple in each room?</p><p>IOf I put 10 stacks of 6 in a single room, and put in a single arcane damage, it hits the room. If I put down a single Tier Down, I get mobs that do and don't all go down</p>

TJackal
03-26-2012, 02:10 PM
<p><cite>NITROX-UANG wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pixie, in your dungeon, you have the mobs in stacks of 6, 7 or 8. And in each room you have a single modifier for extra damage or extra range (out of game so dont have the exact modifier names)</p><p>But you are putting down how many Down tier or down level multiple in each room?</p><p>IOf I put 10 stacks of 6 in a single room, and put in a single arcane damage, it hits the room. If I put down a single Tier Down, I get mobs that do and don't all go down</p></blockquote><p>They should all go down in tier.  Wonder why they aren't? </p><p>I use wizards and warlocks in my dungeon - stacks of 11 in the first room, and stacks of 12 in other rooms.  My first room has tier 4 down, agressiveness, venemous and something else I can't remember (if even that - I've changed the dungeon so many times I don't even remember what's in there anymore).  I believe the points for each monster in the first room is 85, so each group you kill will get you 9.3 tokens.  I believe I stayed away from dropping Arcane and the extra power one, because it was causing knockback(?)  In the rooms where I have stacks of 12, I put in a Tier 2 down.  Each one of those is 35 points.  I found that taking out the 12 is as fast as you can cast 2 AoEs.  I wanted to stack 20 or 30, but the problem is that your power gets sucked too fast and you can't get the 2nd AoE in.  If you duo then yeah - np.  I duo'ed that room and we pulled 4 or 5 groups (about 70 monsters) and wiped them with 2 hits.  I suppose I could drop something like an Aggresiveness in that room, which wouldn't change how fast they all die, but would make each monster worth more points. </p><p>Pixie, I ran your dungeon and you could easily add a few more monsters to each group.  I'll bet you could easily get your dungeon up to 1000 tokens or more!  That would be awesome!  After most of your groups I was finished with about 50/50 health/power left.  Of course, the nice thing was that I had very little downtime (I use Sister Thog - solo).  I think I'm done fiddling with making dungeons, but I would love to see how many monsters could be put in one group that could be soloed.  Okay... maybe I'll make a one room dungeon and try to make groups of like 30 or something.  That would just be funny.</p>

Pixiewrath
03-26-2012, 11:19 PM
<p>I have thought of at least adding one more mob in each group. Should be doable.Two more? Would probably make the dungeon duo only. The way it is now you dont have to rest too much and you can survive if you accidentally pull an add group.And to answer the post before that, if you use dier down (multiple) it affects all mobs in the room. Some rooms are bugged though (esp corridors) and there you cannot use any effect objects.All effect objects I used were room based, not single mob based.</p>

7foggynites
03-28-2012, 12:47 AM
<p>It requires a designer to appreciate and love a good dungeon.</p><p>The rest of players mostly don't care, they just want loot.</p><p>You're not producing content for designers.</p><p>Story and depth and lore and so on just don't matter in the end. This is a fact.</p><p>It's like a good book. A really good book. The kind that english professors and acclaimed critics will praise. This book might be seen as a god send by the elites of the field, but for average people, they don't care. They're happy with far less. A lot of movies that critics don't like, for example, do very well in theatres. Beetlejuice is an excellent example. A lot of critics did not like it. But the general public loved it. I remember watching Siskel & Ebert talking about Jurassic Park. The older one says something like, "I wish they could have inserted more information about the dinosaurs." That's so misplaced that I don't know where to put it. IF they had filled Jurassic Park with educational things like he was thinking then it wouldn't have become a block buster. You know, there's a divide between experts and laymen. Experts have very picky tastes. Very refined and cultured. But laymen are easily satisfied and they also rule the market in raw numbers.</p><p>The majority population will always determine what does well and what doesn't.</p><p>If people liked difficulty or stories by themselves then they'd not be token grinding, they'd be doing those sorts of dungeons. The fact that token grinding is popular is proof that most people don't do difficult dungeons or good story dungeons because they're difficult or have a good story, they'd only do it for the tokens and even then only because they HAD to.</p><p>Your task is to make a good token grind dungeon that ALSO has a good story and design. Don't think about how difficult it's or how time consuming it's. Those're distractions from what's important. And don't EXPECT players to read the story or appreciate your design in its fullness. You need to realize that token grinding is here to stay. So do the best you can.</p><p>NOTE: One thing that might be useful to people who might like story and difficulty is allow players to rate dungeons for their story and difficulty. This way, people looking for those things can find em quicker, even if they're rare.</p>

Pixiewrath
03-28-2012, 10:52 AM
<p><cite>7foggynites wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>NOTE: One thing that might be useful to people who might like story and difficulty is allow players to rate dungeons for their story and difficulty. This way, people looking for those things can find em quicker, even if they're rare.</blockquote><p>Not going to happen. People will keep clicking "like" on the story/difficulty even if it has none, just to keep their grinding dungeon on top.In the last days alone, I've gotten as many "likes" on my token grind as I did in two weeks advertising my real one, part III. Guess what? They like "style" even though it has no decoration to speak of aside from some signs, a book and three stairs.Jurassic Park was a good movie btw, cause it was meant as adventure/action more than educational. Just as my dungeons are meant to have story, design and so on.I can't imagine the developers wanted to create hundreds of token grinds when they made the dungeon maker feature. Even in their trailer for it, they promote decorations and storytelling. And it's been talked about as a problem in several webcasts as well.Can you imagine if the devs had the same philosophy on the actual game? Instead of releasing Skyshrine with story, quests and so on, they just add an empty huge room full of mobs that drop exquisite chests. Would make farmers happy, but the quality of the game?Quality should be rewarded, not easy paths.There is a reason why a relatively unknown movie like Pan's Labyrinth won 3 Oscars despite few people knowing of it.And as you say, the remix of Texas Chainsaw Massacre probably sold well due to it's name, despite being horrible.It's a shame things works like that. But at least Pan's Labyrinth did get recognition if not massive sales, for all effort that was put into it. It's honestly the best movie I have ever seen.If nothing is done to promote wellmade dungeons, DM will forever be a token grind. That is a sad future for a feature with so much potential.Edit: I have by the way received mixed reactions for my dungeons. Most people who run them tell me they are great and wellmade and so on. Got some in-game mails about it.  Then there are the other kind of people you talk about who send /tells and ingame mails that it "suked" because it was too hard, they couldn't target, etc. etc. Those kind of people will always exist and one can only ignore them as good as one can.</p>

Raknid
03-28-2012, 12:23 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can't imagine the developers wanted to create hundreds of token grinds when they made the dungeon maker feature. Even in their trailer for it, they promote decorations and storytelling.</p><p>Quality should be rewarded, not easy paths.</p></blockquote><p>They wanted to add the DM for the very reason you list in the next sentence. It was added as a way for them to intorduce a whole new line of SC products.</p><p>What should be rewarded are the dungeons people "like" the most and nothing else. Who are you to say that that a Renoir is of higher quality than a Picasso which is of higher quality than a Mark Rothko which is of higher quality than something Banksy might do.</p><p>People like what they like, for whatever reasons they like it, and if you try to make some arbitrary rule about what "quality" suffices, you are simply trying to impose your views upon others.</p><p>You can do one of two things: You can either be happy making stuff that some small segment of people really enjoy, and appreciate, and be good with that, or if being "liked" best is your goal you can try to create content which more people will enjoy.</p><p>What you can't do is create "niche" content then try to force the masses to like it by arbitrarily excluding stuff that doesn't meet your standards.</p>

7foggynites
03-28-2012, 01:54 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>7foggynites wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>NOTE: One thing that might be useful to people who might like story and difficulty is allow players to rate dungeons for their story and difficulty. This way, people looking for those things can find em quicker, even if they're rare.</blockquote><p>Not going to happen. People will keep clicking "like" on the story/difficulty even if it has none, just to keep their grinding dungeon on top.In the last days alone, I've gotten as many "likes" on my token grind as I did in two weeks advertising my real one, part III. Guess what? They like "style" even though it has no decoration to speak of aside from some signs, a book and three stairs.</p></blockquote><p>Well I think that using the "cloud" is smart. Why should we not? I'm sure that they can install safeguards against abuse. Prevent users from clicking too many times in a short period or just allow em to vote once. The whole idea that players will just hack the voting system implies that voting systems can't work, but voting systems are used all over the world with great success. The fact that the voting system is on a computer doens't change things since voting systems commonly use computers and have, in the past, always been abusable. It's only because there're safeguards and watchdogs that voting systems are reliable. Of course the voting system will be unusable if it's just left alone without any attention given to it.</p><p>I think it would be interesting if every quest in the game had a feedback mechanism when it was completed. Maybe we could rate it or something or leave a comment for the developers. All of that would be optional. This is cloud computing.</p><p>If done right then dungeons that have good story and/or difficulty but are not good token grinds would receive low overall popularity ratings, but they might have good story/difficulty ratings. Dungeons could be sorted by populatity with an additional means to sort them by story and/or difficulty. This would encourage niche dungeons to compete with each other even though they're not popular in the general population. It might boost the confidence of their designers.</p><p>Nothing prevents people from giving token grind dungeons high story/difficulty ratings. But if most of hte token grind dungeons have high story/difficulty ratings and you know they don't actually have those things then you can just ignore most of the popular dungeons because they're not good samples. You could focus on the less popular dungeons that received high story/difficulty ratings and have much more success finding what you want.</p><p>If done wrong then just ignore everything I've typed here because it's invalid. The bottom line is we have to ask <em>What makes a voter vote honestly?</em> And we should ask <em>What type of voting system is the most cost effective?</em></p><p>I did some google research and found this: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting</a></p><p>It actually reminds me of what's presently availabe for the Dungeon Maker voting system. But I'm not sure if the DM voting system prevents players from voting more than once on the same dungeon, as true approval voting would. And the problem I see with this, even if it were perfectly compliant, is that you don't ever get a chance to change your vote about a dungeon. In elections, for example, we can change our vote in the next election. What if you voted for a dungeon in January, but in February, you no longer would vote for it? This means your vote is no longer reflective of your views. And the other thing is, can a dungeon be changed after it's published? And if it's changed, are the previous votes still valid?</p>

TJackal
03-29-2012, 01:17 PM
<p>I'm curious how all this is going to inflate tokens in the game.  I mean, on the Freeport server, between your 800 token grind, and my 744 token grind - run our first rooms and get like 80 tokens in a few minutes results in people having a boat load of tokens...  I just spent about 8,000 tokens on random stuff and still have 8,000 left.  I have no idea what to spend it on - buy more bosses and spawners I guess (although this receiving duplicate bosses that you can't do anything with is stupid).  I'm wondering if they're gonna raise prices on everything again, or add stuff into DM to spend token on.</p>

Pixiewrath
03-29-2012, 01:47 PM
<p>Well, the point I made this post was to show the imbalance, so hopefully the devs take notice of it and change the way HP/tier buffs work so that difficult mobs award more tokens / minute than easy mobs.It doesn't feel right when easy stuff is more rewarding than hard.It's like getting Fabled Lv 90 drops from all mobs in Commonlands and treasured SF gear from DoV Raid zones <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I currently use my tokens to buy dungeon decoration sets, but that will soon be finished. After that it's like Mystery boxes, boss packs and other limited packs left to deal with. I do wish they add Limited ones to the menu instead of inventory though. Currently I am trying to get a lot of Erudite spawners for my newest serious dungeon, but I end up getting tons of Liches instead. So I either have to get rid of them, save them and use up all my inventory, or emergency place them in my dungeons. Fortunately they suit the dungeon I am building but all I really need is erudites that are non-ghosts.I wonder if we will ever get rid of all the (L) spawners from our inventories...</p>

Whilhelmina
03-29-2012, 03:26 PM
<p>I'm currently in the process of creating a big "exploit dungeon" and a second one without the downtiering to have a comparison on Test server and I'll bring it to the attention of devs when we get the DM update that was promised for GU63.</p>

Pixiewrath
03-29-2012, 04:29 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm currently in the process of creating a big "exploit dungeon" and a second one without the downtiering to have a comparison on Test server and I'll bring it to the attention of devs when we get the DM update that was promised for GU63.</p></blockquote><p>Even better is to use tier up and HP buffs on some as well. Will really show the imbalance.</p>

The_Cheeseman
03-30-2012, 01:32 AM
<p>I'm not sure that crusading to have token farm dungeons nerfed is such a good idea. You seem to assume that the presence of token farms is somehow reducing interest in "legitimate" storyline dungeons, but I don't think that is the case. Token farms attract a specific audience--people who are interested in the dungeon maker rewards, but who don't really care much about storyline. These type of players are a valid style, the game is full of them. By creating dungeons that appeal to the "get in, get tokens, get out" you generate interest in Dungeon Maker as a whole. If the efficient token farm dungeons didn't exist, these types of players wouldn't be running storyline dungeons instead, they simply wouldn't be using Dungeon Maker at all.</p><p>In other words, I don't think the token farms are actually doing you any harm. The people attracted to token farms are not the people who would normally be running your heavily-polished storyline dungeons, anyway. These dungeons may actually be helping you indirectly, by generating interest in Dungeon Maker as a feature, and possibly acting as an introduction to players who may possibly then branch-out to trying storyline dungeons as well.</p>

Pixiewrath
03-30-2012, 09:57 AM
<p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure that crusading to have token farm dungeons nerfed is such a good idea. You seem to assume that the presence of token farms is somehow reducing interest in "legitimate" storyline dungeons, but I don't think that is the case. Token farms attract a specific audience--people who are interested in the dungeon maker rewards, but who don't really care much about storyline. These type of players are a valid style, the game is full of them. By creating dungeons that appeal to the "get in, get tokens, get out" you generate interest in Dungeon Maker as a whole. If the efficient token farm dungeons didn't exist, these types of players wouldn't be running storyline dungeons instead, they simply wouldn't be using Dungeon Maker at all.</p><p>In other words, I don't think the token farms are actually doing you any harm. The people attracted to token farms are not the people who would normally be running your heavily-polished storyline dungeons, anyway. These dungeons may actually be helping you indirectly, by generating interest in Dungeon Maker as a feature, and possibly acting as an introduction to players who may possibly then branch-out to trying storyline dungeons as well.</p></blockquote><p>That's not what I see. What I see are people who do not care to look for well-made dungeons simply because they don't reward as many tokens and because they are hard to find.I'd never touch a token grind if I could run a well-made dungeon and gain a similiar token reward for the time and effort put into it. But the way it is currently setup, players are rewarded for running dungeons with as many mobs packed into piles as possible.I myself have more or less given up on finding decent dungeons to run, simply because there are so many token grinds out there that finding the ones that exist is next to impossible.But what you people forget is that IF the well-designed dungeons are rewarded with token increases or similiar, the people who just want to grind <span style="text-decoration: underline;">can still grind</span> in them and skip the story if they want to. The risk vs reward token rate will still be the same or similiar to what token grinds are today. The end result is that noone lose on token rate, but get more attractive dungeons to play in than just rooms full of mobs.The dungeon maker isn't what it could be though. Mainly because people cannot play as their own toons and there are no drops inside the dungeons which makes them tedious. But making risk vs reward actually be risk vs reward would be a step in the right direction.There is no risk involved in killing 7 down-tiered gnolls in 20 sec and get 9 tokens for it, while three super tough mobs take close to a minute and give you three tokens...People who just run dungeons to grind will not lose out on anything if this is re-balanced. Only the people who created the token grind dungeons in the first place will do, but then again, how much effort did they really put into them?</p>

Raknid
03-30-2012, 10:34 AM
<blockquote><p>Only the people who created the token grind dungeons in the first place will do, but then again, how much effort did they really put into them?</p></blockquote><p>Cummulatively enough that you can't seem to find the dungeons you like?</p><p>You hit on some important points there and I'm not sure you even realized it. Beyond exp and tokens these dungeon offer NOTHING tangible. If they make it so that token farming dungeons aren't attractive, you will eventually see the amount of dungeons whither up, and people will become bored with them.</p><p>I bet you that a fair amount of the people who like storyline dungeons occasionally run one just to get tokens. If the amount of dungeons that are created falls tremendously, since people won't be inclined to make "farm" dungeons, the number of dungeons on the list will start to decline. Someone who likes to run a storyline dungeon but occasionally run token farms might start to find that when they check there aren't any new dungeons they are interested in, or aren't any new dungeons at all (what is the actual creation rate for a big storyline dungeon?), and so the interval of time between checks of the Dungeon Maker grows longer and longer, and eventually it stops altogether.</p><p>What you will be left with is a very small cadre of diehard storyline people creating dungeons for one another. SC sales will dwindle, and SOE will be offering less support.</p><p>In this case I think you ought to take the good with the bad, and make simply ask for a self-identified category that you can put your storyline dungeons so that people who actually want to run them can. There is probably some overlap from the "like storyline" group who use some farm dungeon, but I am not sure that the converse is all that true.</p>

7foggynites
03-30-2012, 12:34 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, the point I made this post was to show the imbalance, so hopefully the devs take notice of it and change the way HP/tier buffs work so that difficult mobs award more tokens / minute than easy mobs.It doesn't feel right when easy stuff is more rewarding than hard.It's like getting Fabled Lv 90 drops from all mobs in Commonlands and treasured SF gear from DoV Raid zones <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I currently use my tokens to buy dungeon decoration sets, but that will soon be finished. After that it's like Mystery boxes, boss packs and other limited packs left to deal with. I do wish they add Limited ones to the menu instead of inventory though. Currently I am trying to get a lot of Erudite spawners for my newest serious dungeon, but I end up getting tons of Liches instead. So I either have to get rid of them, save them and use up all my inventory, or emergency place them in my dungeons. Fortunately they suit the dungeon I am building but all I really need is erudites that are non-ghosts.I wonder if we will ever get rid of all the (L) spawners from our inventories...</p></blockquote><p>I wouldn't be complaining if I got fabled lvl 90 drops from everything in commonlands...</p><p>I'll take treasured SF gear from DoV raid zones too...</p><p>What's wrong with you? In games, you take what you can get, sir.</p><p>You got your hat on backwards, that's why you're confused. Your hat thinks you're going backwards but you're trying to go forwards so everything you do is like taking 2 steps forward and 1 step back.</p><p>Don't think about how much HP or what tier something is. Most players don't play games to be killed or irritated by the monsters they're hunting. That's what billions of monster stats will do. Players want to be the one that does the pain. The player is the boss. Mostly, they don't want to sit through a long and difficult dungeon no matter how good its story is.</p><p>Remember that players are your customer, your audience, not your victim.</p><p>Your first comment should have said this:</p><p>"Well, the point I made this post was to show the imbalance, so hopefully the devs take notice of it and change the way voting works so that dungeons with good story and polish award higher ratings than ones without."</p><p>So, in review:</p><p>1) Put your hat on straight</p><p>2) Focus on story and (graceful) design while rewarding as many tokens as possible</p><p>3) When your mind starts thinking about difficulty, imagine killing something with 1000 billion HP</p>

Pixiewrath
03-30-2012, 06:34 PM
<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If they make it so that token farming dungeons aren't attractive, you will eventually see the amount of dungeons whither up</p></blockquote><p>I would not mind all token grinds stop being created. I'd rather see one good dungeon or two released each week than a bunch of mobs in rooms I have already seen so many times before. There is not creativity in that.Just adding a "Storyline" section in the dungeon maker would once again accomplish nothing as people would just "like" or tag the token grinds they want as storylines and again we are stuck on the same spot we are now.However, the things I am writing about in this post about <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>risk vs reward</em></span></strong> has nothing with storylines to do. That was just a side track. It has with the fact to do that less risk yields greater rewards with today's calculation of effect objects.Which proves the risk vs reward system flawed.Even if one is running a token grind dungeon with super buffed mobs, it should yield higher token rates than a token grind with downtiered mobs.</p><p><cite>7foggynites wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Don't think about how much HP or what tier something is. Most players don't play games to be killed or irritated by the monsters they're hunting. That's what billions of monster stats will do. Players want to be the one that does the pain. The player is the boss. Mostly, they don't want to sit through a long and difficult dungeon no matter how good its story is. <p>Remember that players are your customer, your audience, not your victim</p></blockquote><p>Without challenge, any game will get boring and tedious.A good designed dungeon can let a player survive if they play smart. Avoiding adds, difficult but not impossible mobs, tactics when pulling and so on.If everything was just tank and spank and pressing a button over and over again, then it becomes tedious and repetitive.Games should reward skill, and punish unskilled people. That doesn't mean unskilled people get neglected. It just means they need to hone their skills to become better.I am currently playing a game called Binding of Isaac which is random based. It is insanely difficult, but each time I actually manage to beat a round in it, I feel a deep satisfaction. That is how a game should be.</p>

Raknid
03-30-2012, 08:44 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> I'd rather see one good dungeon or two released each week... </blockquote><p>You think that is what SOE wants to see? Think about it. As much as you love seeing storyline dungeons and such, you think that SOE would rather have a few wine snobs coming in the store a couple times a week or 100s of people buying Boones Farm? All they will care about is the bottom line, so you best hope that all "OMG its a token grind dungeon, shame!" are spending more than everyone esle would. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Pixiewrath
03-30-2012, 09:34 PM
<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> I'd rather see one good dungeon or two released each week... </blockquote><p>You think that is what SOE wants to see? Think about it. As much as you love seeing storyline dungeons and such, you think that SOE would rather have a few wine snobs coming in the store a couple times a week or 100s of people buying Boones Farm? All they will care about is the bottom line, so you best hope that all "OMG its a token grind dungeon, shame!" are spending more than everyone esle would. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>What are they earning from?Most items can only be bought by using tokens, not SC.Also, buying regular decorations for your dungeon using SC is also a no-go since they can only be placed in your house mostly.Adventurers? Possibly.Decoration sets? If you don't decorate you don't need them. No income.Layouts? Same as above. No SC gained there either.Spawners? Again, not needed if you don't care about design. No SC income.The only two things people might buy are effect objects and adventurer avatars if one isn't interested in the decoration part.That is just a handful of all the things available to serious designers. They don't earn much by having people placing 50 gnolls in a room...</p>

Raknid
03-30-2012, 10:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What are they earning from?<strong>Most items can only be bought by using tokens, not</strong> <strong>SC.</strong>Also, buying regular decorations for your dungeon using SC is also a no-go since they can only be placed in your house mostly.Adventurers? Possibly.Decoration sets? If you don't decorate you don't need them. No income.Layouts? Same as above. No SC gained there either.Spawners? Again, not needed if you don't care about design. No SC income.The only two things people might buy are effect objects and adventurer avatars if one isn't interested in the decoration part.That is just a handful of all the things available to serious designers. They don't earn much by having people placing 50 gnolls in a room...</p></blockquote><p>Most items can be bought using both, and I think you vastly underestimate the amount of SC that is spent just dabbling around. 100Sc here, 400SC there, etc...by people who are drawn in because they hear it is "worth it." If word trickles out that they "nerfed" dungeons and made them more of a chore, not as many people are going to be willing to dabble. If I had heard it wasn't worth it I know I wouldn't have spent the small amount of station cash I did. I quickly got bored of it, and haven't spent any money since, but they got my money nonetheless.</p><p>Since I don't particularly care for SOEs monetized design strategy, I hope they take all your suggestions to heart and nerf the poo of dungeons so that only you "connoisseurs" are messing around with them. I would love to see one of their little monetized design experiments fall flat on its face. Maybe then they would get back to focusing on the core of the game.</p>

The_Cheeseman
04-02-2012, 12:55 AM
<p>Here is the main flaw in your philosophy: storyline dungeons can never be as rewarding as farm dungeons.</p><p>You can't base rewards on the quality of a dungeon's design, because that is a qualitative value. Mechanical rewards systems can only be based on quantitative values, such as number of MOBs, challenge rating, and so forth. As long as there is some comprehensible formula for determining the level of rewards for completing a dungeon, somebody will eventually figure out the most efficient method for accumulating those rewards for the least amount of work. Because people always prefer doing less work for the same rewards, that method will become the most popular way of designing a dungeon.</p><p>There is no way to adequately and fairly reward dungeons for creativity that is not exploitable. What you want is simply impossible.</p>

Pixiewrath
04-02-2012, 08:51 AM
<p>It is very possible to stamp some dungeons with "seal of quality" signs and increase token rewards on them. It would be hard work for the devs since it would have to be done manually by the devs or guides/gms in one way or another. But it is still possible.But either way, you describe the problem in what you just wrote." Mechanical rewards systems can only be based on quantitative values, such as number of MOBs, challenge rating, and so forth. As long as there is some comprehensible formula for determining the level of rewards for completing a dungeon, somebody will eventually figure out the most efficient method for accumulating those rewards for the least amount of work."The problem now is that the gap between difficult mob's rewards is WAY lower in time vs reward than easy mobs, which makes it all imbalanced. The 800 token grind I created shouldn't give 1.2 tokens or so per every mob killed when a mob that takes 3-4 times longer to kill (more if it's epic in a 4-6 man group) only awards about 1.6 tokens per mob. That is what is flawed and needs to be fixed.Either by reducing the awards from the downtiered mobs, or improving it on hp/tier buffed mobs. Preferrably a mix of both.As it is now, as I wrote so many times before, easy mobs give more reward than hard mobs. That should never be the nature in a game of this kind. It should always be risk vs reward. That is what keep people playing and what keeps you addicted to a game.The result of keeping weak mobs spouting out tokens like this is just an increase in token grinding dungeons which lacks creativity, story or challenge.Having a challenging dungeon doesn't mean it has to be extremely difficult so you die over and over. That is not the point. I've managed to finish all my "real" dungeons without dying aside from Delving Part III. Dying over and over shows bad balance in the creation.How is it good balanced to let people get more reward for practically doing nothing worth of effort? Like killing 8 downtiered gnolls in a few seconds and still have half their HP left?Someone wrote that it would "kill off the dungeon maker" if well decorated, well-balanced dungeons with storylines got more awarded than token grinds, and that token grinds were essential for the feature's survival.I disagree. By awarding well-made dungeons, it will push the community to try harder so they too can get their dungeons favoured because they put some effort into it. Which in the end will result in a lot more well-made dungeons.I don't see why anyone would be against these ideas unless they themselves own token grinds and are afraid of losing token income.</p>

Mary the Prophetess
04-02-2012, 01:39 PM
<p>I see a similar problem with both Dungeon Maker and Player Housing.  There are hundreds, if not thousands, of published dungeons/houses.  It becomes problematic for a player who may be interested in sampling a dungeon or a house to find any that might interest them.  Perhaps allowing a longer description with 4-6 screenshots, (or maybe an item count), in the description might help; at least in that respect.</p><p>I agree with both Cheeseman and Pixiewrath.  There are two separate types of players running dungeons.  Those that want a storyline and an immersive environment, and those that want tokens.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  I think that the Dungeon Maker aspect of the game can accomodate both.</p><p>I do think that there needs to be a way to better organize the dungeons which have been published, and I am not sure that the Hall of Fame system is the best way to go.  It may even be exacerbating the problem.</p>

Pixiewrath
04-02-2012, 01:59 PM
<p>The problem with the dungeon maker compared to housing leaderboards is that most houses are put up due to designs and that only.Whereas a dungeon is put up to also gain tokens. This is, like someone said, also a problem since it makes people who aren't interested in designing at all, putting up their token grinds just to get tokens.This makes tons more dungeons that aren't decorated available compared to houses.There isn't much point in publishing a house without decorations, but there is a reason to put up an undecorated dungeon.</p>

Raknid
04-03-2012, 10:24 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>but there is a reason to put up an undecorated dungeon.</p></blockquote><p>I could have sworn you had to have monsters in there. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

7foggynites
04-07-2012, 01:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...............</p><p>I am currently playing a game called Binding of Isaac which is random based. It is insanely difficult, but each time I actually manage to beat a round in it, I feel a deep satisfaction. That is how a game should be.</p></blockquote><p>I am playing a game right now that's killing me. I'd like to ask you a question. Do you think you beat those levels BECAUSE it was random based and not because you were a skillful and resourceful player? I've played a lot of games that have random factors in them. Sometimes I wonder if I win a game simply because the odds were in my favor. Other times I swear it's my increased knowledge of the game that contributed to my victory, but I don't know for sure.</p><p>IF all it's is just winning because of random factors then it's no different than gambling. But even Poker or some of the other card games in casino's have some amount of skill going on. Card games can be tricky. The thing is, since when was chance a strategy? Sure, I can form a strategy after reviewing what I'm alotted, but at some point what I'm given is going to put a hard limit on my potential. And thus, even a guy with lower skill than myself can beat me with some luck.</p><p>Maybe what I should try is to redo (from the start) random games to see if I can win them. But that comes with the benefit of hindsight. But I guess my ability to read the present and the future is included in my overall skill as a player?</p><p>Back on topic....</p><p>Anyway, I still think a better voting system and some oversight could solve this problem. As I already stated, it doesn't matter if token grind dungeons always have high story/difficulty ratings. What matters is that you can sort the list by popularity and then story/difficulty. In this way, you could skip past the majority of token grinds that have inflated story/difficulty ratings and focus on the less popular dungeons that're less likely to have fake ratings. This is because they don't have a chance of being the most popular, so there's little incentive to hack the voting system in their favor. Furthermore, a better voting system could reduce the amount of hacking by making it harder or even fruitless.</p><p>Perhaps each dungeon should also show how many people have played it. There're a number of factors to consider. What needs to be in there is the ability for players to sort by different factors to weed out rating hackers.</p>

Pixiewrath
04-07-2012, 06:34 PM
<p>Popularity wouldn't work either. My token grind is horrible. It is fast to get tokens in, but it offers nothing when it comes to feeling and effort. Made it in like 4-6 hours vs 100+ on the others, each. Yet it keeps pouring in tokens for me while noone touches the others that are far more wellmade. Simply because it's not possible to achieve that kind of token rate in them. I mean, yes, you could place 8 downtiered mobs inside each other all over it, inside furniture and so on to get the same amount of tokens but that would ruin the design completely and make it look ridiculous.I don't think a good way to promote well made dungeons can ever be handled by the players, since it requires manual testing and inspection by someone to ever be accurate. While some people could be offended if their dungeons don't make it, it would at the same time give them the chance to improve on their techniques in designing.But even as it works right now, a token grind with long grind runs and hard mobs, rewards tokens slower than one with easier mobs, so be it token grind or not, the risk vs reward is still unbalanced. Which is the point of this post.As for Binding of Isaac, it is true that is so difficult that you sometimes have to die no matter what you do. And those runs make you mad. But there is absolutely skill involved as well. A person who hasn't practiced will most likely never make it further than lvl 4 of 8, if even that close.There is randomness in EQ2 as well when it comes to risks, as mobs (and players) have procs. Some of them are horrible (stunlocks) but they can also be very wellmade sometimes. But there are bad risk vs reward cases in EQ2 as well.I haven't ran the zone much, but I hear that the newest Silent City incarnation that scales has horrible lv 90 rewards, yet when I tried it once, everyone died at the first room, over and over. That is a reason why it's impopular. It's difficult, but people can get better stuff in Drunder and Kael Drakkel.It's the same with token grinds vs real dungeons in DM as well. Unless challenge is rewarded, it's gonna continue being a semi-decent feature like it is now, meant only for token farming.</p>

7foggynites
04-10-2012, 02:42 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Popularity wouldn't work either. My token grind is horrible. It is fast to get tokens in, but it offers nothing when it comes to feeling and effort. Made it in like 4-6 hours vs 100+ on the others, each. Yet it keeps pouring in tokens for me while noone touches the others that are far more wellmade. Simply because it's not possible to achieve that kind of token rate in them. I mean, yes, you could place 8 downtiered mobs inside each other all over it, inside furniture and so on to get the same amount of tokens but that would ruin the design completely and make it look ridiculous.I don't think a good way to promote well made dungeons can ever be handled by the players, since it requires manual testing and inspection by someone to ever be accurate. While some people could be offended if their dungeons don't make it, it would at the same time give them the chance to improve on their techniques in designing.But even as it works right now, a token grind with long grind runs and hard mobs, rewards tokens slower than one with easier mobs, so be it token grind or not, the risk vs reward is still unbalanced. Which is the point of this post.</p></blockquote><p>If you think well made dungeons cannot be accurately promoted by players, you'd be mostly right. But if you look closely at what I've said about it, you'd notice that I stated a careful inspection of the sorted dungeons could yield (potentially) a more accurate result than what's immediately obvious. Just looking at the popularity is not enough. By looking deeper and sorting by popularity first and then story/difficulty afterwards, you may be able to locate dungeons that're more likely to have genuine ratings for their story and difficulty. The reason is because they don't have a chance at being top dog.</p><blockquote><p>As for Binding of Isaac, it is true that is so difficult that you sometimes have to die no matter what you do. And those runs make you mad. But there is absolutely skill involved as well. A person who hasn't practiced will most likely never make it further than lvl 4 of 8, if even that close.There is randomness in EQ2 as well when it comes to risks, as mobs (and players) have procs. Some of them are horrible (stunlocks) but they can also be very wellmade sometimes. But there are bad risk vs reward cases in EQ2 as well.I haven't ran the zone much, but I hear that the newest Silent City incarnation that scales has horrible lv 90 rewards, yet when I tried it once, everyone died at the first room, over and over. That is a reason why it's impopular. It's difficult, but people can get better stuff in Drunder and Kael Drakkel.It's the same with token grinds vs real dungeons in DM as well. Unless challenge is rewarded, it's gonna continue being a semi-decent feature like it is now, meant only for token farming.</p></blockquote><p>This topic is very interesting to me. I've always enjoyed rogue-likes for their random levels and less linear feel, but how much effect the random factors have is something that concerns me. I do not enjoy gambling or simple games. Chance alone is not fun. This is why it concerns me. Too much randomness leads to this (unwanted) result. I am a player that wants to feel like I won or lost because of the choices I made. Every rogue-like or game that has randomness has to come across this topic in a substantial way, if it wants to grab the right audience. Otherwise, it's like selling slot machines to strategy/4x fans. Strategy/4x fans are world renown for their god-mode complex. For them it's all about choices, not random chance. (not to say they can't be fooled. it's commonly known that they get their math wrong and erroneously blame the game)</p><p>Getting risk/reward right is more than just looking at the numbers. That's one of the issues I've had with you. You're looking at the HP and DPS of the creatures and the speed with which a player can kill them. In your mind, higher HP and DPS and longer kill times are equal to higher risk. Higher risk means there must be higher reward. That's why you're arguing that killing higher tier creatures should reward more tokens. My argument is that whenever we examine risk/reward in a game, we must also consider the choices players are making and whether or not the process is enjoyable. If players are not decisively forming strategies to defeat their opposition then I argue the gameplay is less likely to be fun. Other factors might be involved in their enjoyment of the game, but I don't want to overcomplicate this. Increasing the HP and DPS of a creature does not (necessarily) mean that players will be actively involved and thus (as I argue) enjoying it. This is the point I want you to take home. This is what has ruined a lot of "hardcore" games in their implementation.</p>

Pixiewrath
04-10-2012, 10:31 PM
<p>It's not just a matter of HP and tier. It's about using them together with other buffs that matters. Alone they aren't worth much other than a time sink, but if you couple them together with additional effect objects, it's when it gets really dangerous. It doesn't make the enemies into gods, but definitely adds more challenge than getting attacked by a herd of weak mobs that die in two hits each.That is the entire reason why they should be using multiplicators on tier/hp instead of plain 10-50 challenge points increases. So they work together with additional effects.The awareness buffs honestly don't add much challenge either. The greater awareness one has the addition of detecting invisibility, yet there is no avatar that has that attribute in-game that I have seen. So it gives more challenge points than lesser awareness and awareness, without doing essentially anything much differently.It is not just about hp and tier. It is about all buffs combined as a whole and how they award their points vs what they do for the challenge.A dangerous dungeon shouldn't award less than an easy one.</p>

Raknid
04-10-2012, 11:51 PM
<p>I think you are going to be sorely disappointed if they changed all this then find out most people STILL don't like your storyline dungeons.</p><p>That is what you don't get. People who like that sort of thing are already doing it.</p><p>Changing the way this stuff worlks isnt going to bring more people into the DM; it isn't even going to manage to keep the people that are already there; all it is going to do is drive people out from using the dungeons.</p><p>So what have you gained? What do you hope to gain? Are you looking to get your dungeon to the top by tossing all the "riff raff" to the side? That seems pretty petty.</p><p>So the way the system works doesn't seem to work to your liking so you want to make changes to what probably constitutes the most often used dungeons? LOL</p><p>Like I said before. I hope it works and they make all the changes you suggested so that it falls completely flat on its face as a monetized design feature.</p><p>The alternative is ok too though. And that is that they leave it just like it is so that people like you will wake up and realize they are simply being led around by the nose by SOE while they take a stab at your wallet at every oppurtunity. Maybe then some of you will realize that they care absolutely nothing about you other than the dollars you generate. In the case where they leave it the way it is, that means that all the people who love to token farm are more important that the people who take the feature "seriously."</p><p>It is a win/win in my book either way.</p>

Kyouri
04-17-2012, 03:36 PM
<p>(Note: Ignoring the negative nancy who posted before me...)A small discussion I had with some players actually revealed a slightly odd solution to the issue. I made a story-ish dungeon on AB myself, and unfortunately the mob text not working properly combined with my lack of magic mouths seemed to have botched it up some...</p><p>But anyways--the solution. I think the OVERALL reward mechanics need to be changed. Currently, it's set to where if you have a challenge rating of 9999 which can be achieved with little quality work put into a dungeon. A little scratch work came up with this:</p><p>A score system in which you're "evaluated" after running the dungeon, sort of like an arcade game. The player designing the dungeon is allowed to set 5 "Missions" in the dungeon, and cannot repeat the same mission more than once. Some elements of the dungeon performance, such as cleartime and rooms traversed would affect your score, but the missions would provide bonuses for each one achieved.</p><p>Example: Find the Grobb Stone Vault. Finding the specified item in the dungeon and carrying it to the dungeon portal will boost your score by 100 pts.</p><p>Depending on your score for clearing the dungeons, you would get a set amount of tokens; a layout example could be like the following...</p><p>Rank 1-10,000 score: 500 tokens</p><p>Rank 2--8,500 score: 350 tokens</p><p>Rank 3--5,000 score: 200 tokens</p><p>Rank 4--2,500 score: 150 tokens</p><p>Rank 5--2,000 or less: 50 tokens</p><p>The missions could be displayed where your quest tracker would normally be, and being allowed to include your personal items in mission objectives would perhaps encourage a more decorative touch to the dungeons.</p><p>It's a longshot, but if taking too long to run a dungeon and not traversing the entirety of it penalized people, the storylined dungeons might actually get a looksee. lol.</p>

Pixiewrath
04-18-2012, 12:09 AM
<p><cite>Kyouri wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>(Note: Ignoring the negative nancy who posted before me...)A small discussion I had with some players actually revealed a slightly odd solution to the issue. I made a story-ish dungeon on AB myself, and unfortunately the mob text not working properly combined with my lack of magic mouths seemed to have botched it up some...</p><p>But anyways--the solution. I think the OVERALL reward mechanics need to be changed. Currently, it's set to where if you have a challenge rating of 9999 which can be achieved with little quality work put into a dungeon. A little scratch work came up with this:</p><p>A score system in which you're "evaluated" after running the dungeon, sort of like an arcade game. The player designing the dungeon is allowed to set 5 "Missions" in the dungeon, and cannot repeat the same mission more than once. Some elements of the dungeon performance, such as cleartime and rooms traversed would affect your score, but the missions would provide bonuses for each one achieved.</p><p>Example: Find the Grobb Stone Vault. Finding the specified item in the dungeon and carrying it to the dungeon portal will boost your score by 100 pts.</p><p>Depending on your score for clearing the dungeons, you would get a set amount of tokens; a layout example could be like the following...</p><p>Rank 1-10,000 score: 500 tokens</p><p>Rank 2--8,500 score: 350 tokens</p><p>Rank 3--5,000 score: 200 tokens</p><p>Rank 4--2,500 score: 150 tokens</p><p>Rank 5--2,000 or less: 50 tokens</p><p>The missions could be displayed where your quest tracker would normally be, and being allowed to include your personal items in mission objectives would perhaps encourage a more decorative touch to the dungeons.</p><p>It's a longshot, but if taking too long to run a dungeon and not traversing the entirety of it penalized people, the storylined dungeons might actually get a looksee. lol.</p></blockquote><p>Would be nice but... People can still smack those 5 quests into nothingness in the first room and again we have a token grind.</p>

The_Cheeseman
04-18-2012, 10:27 AM
<p>It's simply impossible to balance risk vs. reward when the person determining the level of risk is also the one receiving the reward. Human brains simply don't work that way. Games in general are built around solving problems, every game has a goal and various obstacles the player must overcome to achieve that goal. We are conditioned to want to reach this goal as quickly and efficiently as possible, because that means we're improving and learning how to better handle the obstacles. If a player can find a way to entirely circumvent a specific obstacle, they are generally incentivized to do so.</p><p>In many ways, Player-made content is a lot like Communism. They both sound great on paper, and would be great in a perfect world, but they ignore the basics of human nature, and therefore they will always fail.</p>

Pixiewrath
04-18-2012, 11:53 AM
<p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's simply impossible to balance risk vs. reward when the person determining the level of risk is also the one receiving the reward. Human brains simply don't work that way. Games in general are built around solving problems, every game has a goal and various obstacles the player must overcome to achieve that goal. We are conditioned to want to reach this goal as quickly and efficiently as possible, because that means we're improving and learning how to better handle the obstacles. If a player can find a way to entirely circumvent a specific obstacle, they are generally incentivized to do so.</p><p>In many ways, Player-made content is a lot like Communism. They both sound great on paper, and would be great in a perfect world, but they ignore the basics of human nature, and therefore they will always fail.</p></blockquote><p>True that, and that is why we have a government (or in this case SoE) that could prevent this.Not only by balancing the actual reward calculations, but by promotions and similiar.</p>

Raknid
04-18-2012, 12:40 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's simply impossible to balance risk vs. reward when the person determining the level of risk is also the one receiving the reward. Human brains simply don't work that way. Games in general are built around solving problems, every game has a goal and various obstacles the player must overcome to achieve that goal. We are conditioned to want to reach this goal as quickly and efficiently as possible, because that means we're improving and learning how to better handle the obstacles. If a player can find a way to entirely circumvent a specific obstacle, they are generally incentivized to do so.</p><p>In many ways, Player-made content is a lot like Communism. They both sound great on paper, and would be great in a perfect world, but they ignore the basics of human nature, and therefore they will always fail.</p></blockquote><p>True that, and that is why we have a government (or in this case SoE) that could prevent this.Not only by balancing the actual reward calculations, but by promotions and similiar.</p></blockquote><p>So tell me. What do you think is in it for SOE? Presuming they would not act against their own self interest, what concrete rewards do you see them reaping if they make the changes you propose? Do you think that your changes will lead to more net item sales? Do you think your changes are going to increase net retention beyond what would otherwise occur?</p><p>It isn't like Dev time is free. The changes you suggest are going to mean a significant revamp of the DM reward system. That is time a dev could otherwise be spending on something else. SOE doesn't really have time to waste in order to appease someones "moral outrage"; it must be beneficial to them. Where does that benefit lie?</p>

Pixiewrath
04-18-2012, 03:30 PM
<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's simply impossible to balance risk vs. reward when the person determining the level of risk is also the one receiving the reward. Human brains simply don't work that way. Games in general are built around solving problems, every game has a goal and various obstacles the player must overcome to achieve that goal. We are conditioned to want to reach this goal as quickly and efficiently as possible, because that means we're improving and learning how to better handle the obstacles. If a player can find a way to entirely circumvent a specific obstacle, they are generally incentivized to do so.</p><p>In many ways, Player-made content is a lot like Communism. They both sound great on paper, and would be great in a perfect world, but they ignore the basics of human nature, and therefore they will always fail.</p></blockquote><p>True that, and that is why we have a government (or in this case SoE) that could prevent this.Not only by balancing the actual reward calculations, but by promotions and similiar.</p></blockquote><p>So tell me. What do you think is in it for SOE? Presuming they would not act against their own self interest, what concrete rewards do you see them reaping if they make the changes you propose? Do you think that your changes will lead to more net item sales? Do you think your changes are going to increase net retention beyond what would otherwise occur?</p><p>It isn't like Dev time is free. The changes you suggest are going to mean a significant revamp of the DM reward system. That is time a dev could otherwise be spending on something else. SOE doesn't really have time to waste in order to appease someones "moral outrage"; it must be beneficial to them. Where does that benefit lie?</p></blockquote><p>That people can actually enjoy doing DM dungeons for example?Aether Races doesn't benefit them either, yet it is still a very popular event.Well, actually both of these things do benefit them as they create a lust for people to come back and play more.</p>

Raknid
04-19-2012, 10:27 AM
<p>I said concrete...as in do you think SOE will make more money after your changes than before.</p><p>The creation, or existance, of the Aether Races isn't a good example simply because we are looking at deltas. There were no Aether Races before their creation so it stands to reason that afterwards more people would be happy.</p><p>A better example would be to ask if they were to change the Aether Races, to make them more difficult and lower the rewards, would more people be happy after than before? I would think not.</p><p>You could also ask the hypothetical of whether to use dev time beefing up the matching code of the dungeon finder or tweaking the risk reward curve for dungeon maker? Which would result in more happy customers.</p><p>I really don't think your ideas are "good" at all; not from an overall happiness standpoint or an efficient use of Dev time. Your's is a solution in search of a problem.</p><p>It doesn't unbalance the game and isn't a thorn in the side of most players. Sure they may be some "serious" dungeon desingers who are up in arms, but the people actually running the dungeons? All you have to do is look to see which ones are being ran and voted on the most to know that the people actually running the dungeons are gravitating towards the dungeons you want to nerf.</p>