Most Brawlers have caught up to plate tanks in Mitigation. [Archive]

Bruener

02-22-2012, 04:57 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I know for a FACT is that every MOB Ive tanked Ive seen a Pally and Guard in same guild Tank just as easily. This is up to second named in HM Sullons. To believe strikethrough immune is holding either of these two classes from MTing to this point is in fact denial.Why anyone would be asking for any tank to be nerfed is just rediculous IMHO. Justify the need on your plate tank the same as brawlers justified the need to get strikethrough immune in the first place and you might be on to something (Brawlers justified a mechanic that specifically effected the class). Personally I dont think you can so the next obvious course is just getting brawlers nerfed to regain your MT spots /shrugIMHO I think theres some other reasons why brawlers are MTing more. One being from every guard that Ive talked to that swapped just likes the brawlers all around game play better. I cant argue that there fun outside of raid and if they can MT as well we have a winner! Biggest complaint from ex guards is brawlers dont hold AoE as well.</blockquote>Here is the simple gist of it. Brawlers get hit way less often. They take same size hits when they do get hit. They have more saves that are up more often to deal with one-shots. And they have more snap capability both AE and ST.Meanwhile every tank with current mechanics and current need of hate buffers/transfers due to the disparity in current DPS tiers hold agro about the same. If you don't have the buffs/transfers you don't hold the hate. If you do, you do hold it.People aren't just making this stuff up. Yeah, other tanks CAN tank. It is just more difficult. There is no way you are going to be able to convince that all these people and guilds have made a big switch to using Brawlers for progression just because their fun outside of raid.

Damager

02-22-2012, 05:35 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I know for a FACT is that every MOB Ive tanked Ive seen a Pally and Guard in same guild Tank just as easily. This is up to second named in HM Sullons. To believe strikethrough immune is holding either of these two classes from MTing to this point is in fact denial.Why anyone would be asking for any tank to be nerfed is just rediculous IMHO. Justify the need on your plate tank the same as brawlers justified the need to get strikethrough immune in the first place and you might be on to something (Brawlers justified a mechanic that specifically effected the class). Personally I dont think you can so the next obvious course is just getting brawlers nerfed to regain your MT spots /shrugIMHO I think theres some other reasons why brawlers are MTing more. One being from every guard that Ive talked to that swapped just likes the brawlers all around game play better. I cant argue that there fun outside of raid and if they can MT as well we have a winner! Biggest complaint from ex guards is brawlers dont hold AoE as well.</blockquote>Here is the simple gist of it. Brawlers get hit way less often. They take same size hits when they do get hit. They have more saves that are up more often to deal with one-shots. And they have more snap capability both AE and ST.Meanwhile every tank with current mechanics and current need of hate buffers/transfers due to the disparity in current DPS tiers hold agro about the same. If you don't have the buffs/transfers you don't hold the hate. If you do, you do hold it.People aren't just making this stuff up. Yeah, other tanks CAN tank. It is just more difficult. There is no way you are going to be able to convince that all these people and guilds have made a big switch to using Brawlers for progression just because their fun outside of raid.</blockquote>Incorrect sir. I am not trying to convince anyone of anythin I stated the fact that both Pallies and Guards have Tanked the same content with no issues as I have. Whether brawlers do it easier however is an oppinion. I stated what I was told from guards that have swapped and their oppinion.The "Simple Gist" you are deifining is lets make stuff harder for everyone (Based on your one sided oppinion), not easier which IMHO is not well thought out at all especially when you take into concideration the progression the people complaining has actually encountered. Common sense would be for a class that feels inferior to state what and why they feel that way with their class spcific problem to bring them up to par, saying because xyz has abc so they are OP is completely unproductive as they do not directly relate in comparison. On a side note, I have watched a Pally MT HM content with only 3 groups and 4 healers while I was OT, Ii will be close to impossible to convince me of such a drastic over power of brawlers from my personal experience. From some Raid healers Oppinions it is also easier to keep a Pally up than a brawler on HM Finnrdag /shrug

Damager

02-22-2012, 06:28 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm surprised the fact that pretty much every guild that matters runs a brawler tank cause its easier to maintain them isn't enough proof for you.If I felt there was any doubt in my claim, I'd post data, but I really don't care enough to beat you about the head with reality.</blockquote>I mean no disrespect.There has to be doubt in your claim otherwise as raid leader you would not have had a Guard as MT and a Monk as OT otherwise you would be admiting to holding back a whole raid out of spite.

Yimway

02-22-2012, 06:31 PM

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Damager

02-22-2012, 06:42 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.</blockquote>Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

Bruener

02-22-2012, 07:59 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.</blockquote>Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.</blockquote>Ok, when you were comparing a Monk to a Guard there can be some give. When you threw the Paladin into the mix it just throws your opinion out the window. The Paladin not only is going to get hit more often but they also do not have the one shot prevention capability nor do they have the snap agro management.Tanking comes down to 3 things right now. 1. Damage Taken Over Time 2. One Shot Prevention 3. Snap agro. (Notice DPS is not included on there because SOE made sure they made Fighter DPS irrelevant with DoV and also simple agro generation since every tank can easily generate enough agro to hold singles and AoE mobs off a raid with the set up that is required in raiding). So it simply comes down to those 3 items. Right now there are 3 tanks that are better in all 3 of those categories than the other 3 tanks. Brawlers specifically lead every single one of those categories.As a SK in a raid it takes having a Templar + Warden + Brawler avoidance to get even close to the same sustainable damage taken + one shot prevention capability. Brawlers get all that built into their character along with superior snaps and can basically do it better with offensive healers than Plate tanks can with a stacked defensive group.The mitigation gap is tiny and is more than made up for by DR on Brawlers. Meanwhile the gap in avoidance is tremendous partly due to +block chance being on a better curve for Brawlers and partly because of strike through. If they are going to make it so that Leather tanks take the same size physical hits than they should make it so that Plate tanks have the same avoidance. Than they can adjust some abilities on Crusaders + Zerkers for a little bit better one shot prevention.

Yimway

02-22-2012, 08:02 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.</blockquote>I see it differently.The monk excells at surviving unpredictable damage.The guard excells at negating predictable damage.Unpredictable things are naturally much, much harder to deal with so we prefer to run the MT that minimizes that risk. And I think when you consider a guard OT in the same group can leverage that predictable damage negation as well and let the monk MT most of the time, its clear to me which is the best choice.

LardLord

02-22-2012, 08:26 PM

It's hard to take Brawlers seriously when they argue that their survivability is balanced because I already understand that it's possible to play a Brawler so that they don't survive much/any better than other fighters. Just simply rolling a Brawler doesn't make you an unkillable, infinite snap juggernaut. However, I also understand that some people are able to attain that status by gearing/spec'ing/playing a certain way. As far as I'm aware, Berserkers/Crusaders cannot become unkillable, infinite snap juggernauts no matter how they're geared/spec'd/played.

BChizzle

02-22-2012, 08:33 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's hard to take Brawlers seriously when they argue that their survivability is balanced because I already understand that it's possible to play a Brawler so that they don't survive much/any better than other fighters. Just simply rolling a Brawler doesn't make you an unkillable, infinite snap juggernaut. However, I also understand that some people are able to attain that status by gearing/spec'ing/playing a certain way. As far as I'm aware, Berserkers/Crusaders cannot become unkillable, infinite snap juggernauts no matter how they're geared/spec'd/played.</blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared, clearly its not or even close to happening so all you are doing is talking the same garbage you always do.

LardLord

02-22-2012, 08:40 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared</blockquote>You bring up a good point there! Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either. Perhaps I got a bit carried away.

Damager

02-22-2012, 08:52 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.</blockquote>I see it differently.The monk excells at surviving unpredictable damage.The guard excells at negating predictable damage.Unpredictable things are naturally much, much harder to deal with so we prefer to run the MT that minimizes that risk. And I think when you consider a guard OT in the same group can leverage that predictable damage negation as well and let the monk MT most of the time, its clear to me which is the best choice.</blockquote>brawler is well rounded in my opinion, our temps like our two wards are only 15s in duration and will have no effect unless we take x amount of damage (One only does physical damage), death prevent 45s and as such best against predictable damage. Their AA procs protect against unpredictable physical damage (ie Multi attack oneshots).Guard wards doesnt matter and can be used in either scenario but I would favor more towards unpredictable damage due to they protect against either type of damage and as such may be interpreted as predictable as they can be eatin up by the unpredictable.I also believe the use of the term "damage profile" that you used is incorrect. The profile would be how the damage was taken over time, I believe the Guard would take a more predictable stable damage profile. Tottal damage, Brawlers have always taken less as a whole but still suffered severely from oneshots in the past.I can whole heartedly say removing strikethrough Immunity from brawlers would do absolutely nothing for any other class (no it will not increase the plates survivability ROFL) and would have zero effect on any raid that uses a plate MT for progression, This is well common sence. What it will do is cripple brawlers and remove one way that a raid may or may not have succeeded against a certain type of mob and in the end the plate tank is still sitting where they have been.

Bruener

02-22-2012, 08:57 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can whole heartedly say removing strikethrough Immunity from brawlers would do absolutely nothing for any other class (no it will not increase the plates survivability ROFL) and would have zero effect on any raid that uses a plate MT for progression, This is well common sence. What it will do is cripple brawlers and remove one way that a raid may or may not have succeeded against a certain type of mob and in the end the plate tank is still sitting where they have been.</blockquote>Wrong. It would allow them to utilize the mechanic the way it was meant to be. SOE is constantly introducing content with too high of strike through that ends up being killable by Brawlers and completely unbalanced when using a Plate tank.So what it would do is allow them to introduce more balanced content instead of take a guess throw mob out there watch Brawlers tank it no problem while Plate tanks are taking massive damage trying to do the same thing.If strike through immunity is a non-issue than you won't miss it, right?

Damager

02-22-2012, 08:58 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.</blockquote>Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.</blockquote>Ok, when you were comparing a Monk to a Guard there can be some give. When you threw the Paladin into the mix it just throws your opinion out the window. The Paladin not only is going to get hit more often but they also do not have the one shot prevention capability nor do they have the snap agro management.Tanking comes down to 3 things right now. 1. Damage Taken Over Time 2. One Shot Prevention 3. Snap agro. (Notice DPS is not included on there because SOE made sure they made Fighter DPS irrelevant with DoV and also simple agro generation since every tank can easily generate enough agro to hold singles and AoE mobs off a raid with the set up that is required in raiding). So it simply comes down to those 3 items. Right now there are 3 tanks that are better in all 3 of those categories than the other 3 tanks. Brawlers specifically lead every single one of those categories.As a SK in a raid it takes having a Templar + Warden + Brawler avoidance to get even close to the same sustainable damage taken + one shot prevention capability. Brawlers get all that built into their character along with superior snaps and can basically do it better with offensive healers than Plate tanks can with a stacked defensive group.The mitigation gap is tiny and is more than made up for by DR on Brawlers. Meanwhile the gap in avoidance is tremendous partly due to +block chance being on a better curve for Brawlers and partly because of strike through. If they are going to make it so that Leather tanks take the same size physical hits than they should make it so that Plate tanks have the same avoidance. Than they can adjust some abilities on Crusaders + Zerkers for a little bit better one shot prevention.</blockquote>Unfortunately I can not accept your oppinion, I watched a Pally do everything I did with the same success. It is not my oppinion it is fact, it was done.You also can NOT take damage over time into concideration without taking in healing/warding over time. You sir are comparing a brawler to a Pally this is apples to oranges in comparison of how they cope with damage.The only thing you are compairing even remotely is one tank vs another standing there not casting a single temp buff or heal or DP which is completely unrealistic

LardLord

02-22-2012, 09:02 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>death prevent 45s and as such best against predictable damage</blockquote>See, this is what I mean. Spec for the Heroic AA that increases the duration and adds a trigger to Tenacity in order to take one step towards becoming an unkillable juggernaut (Note: this is hyperbole. It will actually still be possible for you to die. For example, if you fly to a great height and cancel your mount).

Damager

02-22-2012, 09:05 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>death prevent 45s and as such best against predictable damage</blockquote>See, this is what I mean. Spec for the Heroic AA that increases the duration and adds a trigger to Tenacity to take one step towards becoming an unkillable juggernaut (Note: this is hyperbole. It will actually still be possible for you to die. For example, if you fly to the great height and cancel your mount). </blockquote>If mobs Died in 90s sir you would be close to correct, Unfortunately they dont so you are wrong. Also there are plate tanks that have their death prevent up all the time and as such makes them take unpredictable wayyyy better.Correct me if im wrong but SK can spec 3 death prevents that is up all the time? No?

LardLord

02-22-2012, 09:11 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>death prevent 45s and as such best against predictable damage</blockquote>See, this is what I mean. Spec for the Heroic AA that increases the duration and adds a trigger to Tenacity to take one step towards becoming an unkillable juggernaut (Note: this is hyperbole. It will actually still be possible for you to die. For example, if you fly to the great height and cancel your mount). </blockquote>If mobs Died in 90s sir you would be close to correct, Unfortunately they dont so you are wrong. Also there are plate tanks that have their death prevent up all the time and as such makes them take unpredictable wayyyy better.</blockquote>That's just one of the many steps to becoming an unkillable juggernaut. For example, you also need high reuse speed, which makes your 90 second 3 trigger death save refresh in 150 seconds.EDIT:<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Correct me if im wrong but SK can spec 3 death prevents that is up all the time? No?</blockquote>You're actually wrong here. To my knowledge, the exploit that previously allowed three trigger BLs has been fixed. Furthermore, they cannot recast BL while in combat, meaning the fight has to end (or they have to die) before they can recast it. And further, the recast on the BL does not begin until the two triggers are consumed. It's not like Tenacity where the recast begins as soon as you cast it.

Bruener

02-22-2012, 09:12 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.</blockquote>Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.</blockquote>Ok, when you were comparing a Monk to a Guard there can be some give. When you threw the Paladin into the mix it just throws your opinion out the window. The Paladin not only is going to get hit more often but they also do not have the one shot prevention capability nor do they have the snap agro management.Tanking comes down to 3 things right now. 1. Damage Taken Over Time 2. One Shot Prevention 3. Snap agro. (Notice DPS is not included on there because SOE made sure they made Fighter DPS irrelevant with DoV and also simple agro generation since every tank can easily generate enough agro to hold singles and AoE mobs off a raid with the set up that is required in raiding). So it simply comes down to those 3 items. Right now there are 3 tanks that are better in all 3 of those categories than the other 3 tanks. Brawlers specifically lead every single one of those categories.As a SK in a raid it takes having a Templar + Warden + Brawler avoidance to get even close to the same sustainable damage taken + one shot prevention capability. Brawlers get all that built into their character along with superior snaps and can basically do it better with offensive healers than Plate tanks can with a stacked defensive group.The mitigation gap is tiny and is more than made up for by DR on Brawlers. Meanwhile the gap in avoidance is tremendous partly due to +block chance being on a better curve for Brawlers and partly because of strike through. If they are going to make it so that Leather tanks take the same size physical hits than they should make it so that Plate tanks have the same avoidance. Than they can adjust some abilities on Crusaders + Zerkers for a little bit better one shot prevention.</blockquote>Unfortunately I can not accept your oppinion, I watched a Pally do everything I did with the same success. It is not my oppinion it is fact, it was done.You also can NOT take damage over time into concideration without taking in healing/warding over time. You sir are comparing a brawler to a Pally this is apples to oranges in comparison of how they cope with damage.The only thing you are compairing even remotely is one tank vs another standing there not casting a single temp buff or heal or DP which is completely unrealistic</blockquote>Lol. 1k HPS? Do you have any idea how much the gap in avoidance provides in HPS terms? Not to mention you can't even factor that not getting hit also means not getting MA'd for that hit and not getting a proc for that hit can you? If a Crusader could heal the HPS to cover the gap in avoidance you would see the HPS of a healer easily.

Damager

02-22-2012, 09:17 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.</blockquote>Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.</blockquote>Ok, when you were comparing a Monk to a Guard there can be some give. When you threw the Paladin into the mix it just throws your opinion out the window. The Paladin not only is going to get hit more often but they also do not have the one shot prevention capability nor do they have the snap agro management.Tanking comes down to 3 things right now. 1. Damage Taken Over Time 2. One Shot Prevention 3. Snap agro. (Notice DPS is not included on there because SOE made sure they made Fighter DPS irrelevant with DoV and also simple agro generation since every tank can easily generate enough agro to hold singles and AoE mobs off a raid with the set up that is required in raiding). So it simply comes down to those 3 items. Right now there are 3 tanks that are better in all 3 of those categories than the other 3 tanks. Brawlers specifically lead every single one of those categories.As a SK in a raid it takes having a Templar + Warden + Brawler avoidance to get even close to the same sustainable damage taken + one shot prevention capability. Brawlers get all that built into their character along with superior snaps and can basically do it better with offensive healers than Plate tanks can with a stacked defensive group.The mitigation gap is tiny and is more than made up for by DR on Brawlers. Meanwhile the gap in avoidance is tremendous partly due to +block chance being on a better curve for Brawlers and partly because of strike through. If they are going to make it so that Leather tanks take the same size physical hits than they should make it so that Plate tanks have the same avoidance. Than they can adjust some abilities on Crusaders + Zerkers for a little bit better one shot prevention.</blockquote>Unfortunately I can not accept your oppinion, I watched a Pally do everything I did with the same success. It is not my oppinion it is fact, it was done.You also can NOT take damage over time into concideration without taking in healing/warding over time. You sir are comparing a brawler to a Pally this is apples to oranges in comparison of how they cope with damage.The only thing you are compairing even remotely is one tank vs another standing there not casting a single temp buff or heal or DP which is completely unrealistic</blockquote>Lol. 1k HPS? Do you have any idea how much the gap in avoidance provides in HPS terms? Not to mention you can't even factor that not getting hit also means not getting MA'd for that hit and not getting a proc for that hit can you? If a Crusader could heal the HPS to cover the gap in avoidance you would see the HPS of a healer easily.</blockquote>I dont understand your 1k HP? I have Pally healing millions in raid in ACT?Direct comparison Monk healed 138k vs Pally 2.4 Million. Monk is completely dependant on healers to cope with spikes, Pally can compinsate for a smoother heal over time reducing the effects of oneshot.If you are suggesting a Pally con NOT MT up to HM sullons without dieing you have been proven undisputably wrong by a guild that is only ranked 75th WW.

Corydonn

02-22-2012, 09:45 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared, clearly its not or even close to happening so all you are doing is talking the same garbage you always do.</blockquote>I'm unkillable, Just the rest of my group dies and I sit there in eternal gridlock with the mob until I get bored enough to FD.

Damager

02-22-2012, 09:46 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can whole heartedly say removing strikethrough Immunity from brawlers would do absolutely nothing for any other class (no it will not increase the plates survivability ROFL) and would have zero effect on any raid that uses a plate MT for progression, This is well common sence. What it will do is cripple brawlers and remove one way that a raid may or may not have succeeded against a certain type of mob and in the end the plate tank is still sitting where they have been.</blockquote>Wrong. It would allow them to utilize the mechanic the way it was meant to be. SOE is constantly introducing content with too high of strike through that ends up being killable by Brawlers and completely unbalanced when using a Plate tank.So what it would do is allow them to introduce more balanced content instead of take a guess throw mob out there watch Brawlers tank it no problem while Plate tanks are taking massive damage trying to do the same thing.If strike through immunity is a non-issue than you won't miss it, right?</blockquote>Incorrect. Sit back for a second and digest what you just said.Your whole objective is to nerf brawler so they nerf the content so plates are superior /shrug You make an Assumption that they will change the content. If they dont you are where you are now as I stated.Wouldnt it make more sense to just ask for the direct path and say remove strikethrough from the mobs? But NO some genious say's we nerf a class so they nerf the content ROFL. If I want a glass of water I say I want a glass of water, I dont say ban plastics so my water has to come in a glass ROFL!Which part of ask directly for what your class needs rather than nerf another do you not understand? Of course as I stated it will cripple brawlers, and as stated it will have no effect on plates. If they nerf the content and remove strikethrough then yes that would bennifit plates, again as I stated.

Bruener

02-22-2012, 09:50 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can whole heartedly say removing strikethrough Immunity from brawlers would do absolutely nothing for any other class (no it will not increase the plates survivability ROFL) and would have zero effect on any raid that uses a plate MT for progression, This is well common sence. What it will do is cripple brawlers and remove one way that a raid may or may not have succeeded against a certain type of mob and in the end the plate tank is still sitting where they have been.</blockquote>Wrong. It would allow them to utilize the mechanic the way it was meant to be. SOE is constantly introducing content with too high of strike through that ends up being killable by Brawlers and completely unbalanced when using a Plate tank.So what it would do is allow them to introduce more balanced content instead of take a guess throw mob out there watch Brawlers tank it no problem while Plate tanks are taking massive damage trying to do the same thing.If strike through immunity is a non-issue than you won't miss it, right?</blockquote>Incorrect. Sit back for a second and digest what you just said.Your whole objective is to nerf brawler so they nerf the content so plates are superior /shrug You make an Assumption that they will change the content. If they dont you are where you are now as I stated.Wouldnt it make more sense to just ask for the direct path and say remove strikethrough from the mobs? But NO some genious say's we nerf a class so they nerf the content ROFL. If I want a glass of water I say I want a glass of water, I dont say ban plastics so my water has to come in a glass ROFL!Which part of ask directly for what your class needs rather than nerf another do you not understand? Of course as I stated it will cripple brawlers, and as stated it will have no effect on plates. If they nerf the content and remove strikethrough then yes that would bennifit plates, again as I stated.</blockquote>Here is the difference between me and you. I understand why they introduce a mechanic like strike through and the advantagae it has in being used as a tool to help keep Fighter avoidance in check.You do not.I also understand how the field of Fighters really sits in terms of balance and the large gap that has been around since DoV beta.You do not.

Damager

02-22-2012, 09:54 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared, clearly its not or even close to happening so all you are doing is talking the same garbage you always do.</blockquote>I'm unkillable, Just the rest of my group dies and I sit there in eternal gridlock with the mob until I get bored enough to FD.</blockquote>ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!The life of a brawler is a terrible thing /sigh

Damager

02-22-2012, 10:06 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can whole heartedly say removing strikethrough Immunity from brawlers would do absolutely nothing for any other class (no it will not increase the plates survivability ROFL) and would have zero effect on any raid that uses a plate MT for progression, This is well common sence. What it will do is cripple brawlers and remove one way that a raid may or may not have succeeded against a certain type of mob and in the end the plate tank is still sitting where they have been.</blockquote>Wrong. It would allow them to utilize the mechanic the way it was meant to be. SOE is constantly introducing content with too high of strike through that ends up being killable by Brawlers and completely unbalanced when using a Plate tank.So what it would do is allow them to introduce more balanced content instead of take a guess throw mob out there watch Brawlers tank it no problem while Plate tanks are taking massive damage trying to do the same thing.If strike through immunity is a non-issue than you won't miss it, right?</blockquote>Incorrect. Sit back for a second and digest what you just said.Your whole objective is to nerf brawler so they nerf the content so plates are superior /shrug You make an Assumption that they will change the content. If they dont you are where you are now as I stated.Wouldnt it make more sense to just ask for the direct path and say remove strikethrough from the mobs? But NO some genious say's we nerf a class so they nerf the content ROFL. If I want a glass of water I say I want a glass of water, I dont say ban plastics so my water has to come in a glass ROFL!Which part of ask directly for what your class needs rather than nerf another do you not understand? Of course as I stated it will cripple brawlers, and as stated it will have no effect on plates. If they nerf the content and remove strikethrough then yes that would bennifit plates, again as I stated.</blockquote>Here is the difference between me and you. I understand why they introduce a mechanic like strike through and the advantagae it has in being used as a tool to help keep Fighter avoidance in check.You do not.I also understand how the field of Fighters really sits in terms of balance and the large gap that has been around since DoV beta.You do not.</blockquote>I am sorry but I can not accept the I am right, you are wrong as an answer. The Devs are not gonna accept that from you either. Make a valid and descisive descision on what you want and stick with it. I am tired of people comin in here asking to nerf monk when its the content they really want changed.Do you want Brawlers nerfed and the content to stay the same and plates to stay where they are?Do want the content changed and plates to advance?Do you want plates to match current content?Do you want plates to match current content and monks nerfed so they cant tank?very simple sir.

Damager

02-22-2012, 10:20 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>EDIT:<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Correct me if im wrong but SK can spec 3 death prevents that is up all the time? No?</blockquote>You're actually wrong here. To my knowledge, the exploit that previously allowed three trigger BLs has been fixed. Furthermore, they cannot recast BL while in combat, meaning the fight has to end (or they have to die) before they can recast it. And further, the recast on the BL does not begin until the two triggers are consumed. It's not like Tenacity where the recast begins as soon as you cast it.</blockquote>Ok so that was just an exploit that SKs enjoyed for a couple years got it now they only have 2 deth prevents that are up all the time, But if the SK dies can he cast it again before he attacks during the fight same as using a mendor bot etc? i mean seriously just have a swash put his 30s of immune to everything up have him tank till SK is back ROFL!

Bruener

02-23-2012, 12:55 AM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont understand your 1k HP? I have Pally healing millions in raid in ACT?Direct comparison Monk healed 138k vs Pally 2.4 Million. Monk is completely dependant on healers to cope with spikes, Pally can compinsate for a smoother heal over time reducing the effects of oneshot.If you are suggesting a Pally con NOT MT up to HM sullons without dieing you have been proven undisputably wrong by a guild that is only ranked 75th WW.</blockquote>23:50 Gindan pull (yeah I know long one, had some major screw ups for heals on mob). Took 15.4 mil damage tanking adds. Healed 966 HPS for the encounter.That is how much heals do.On that fight a 10% avoidance difference is about 4k HPS worth of damage not factoring MAs and procs on hit.(Bruiser heal parse was 713 hps, Monks was 546 hps)

Damager

02-23-2012, 02:26 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont understand your 1k HP? I have Pally healing millions in raid in ACT?Direct comparison Monk healed 138k vs Pally 2.4 Million. Monk is completely dependant on healers to cope with spikes, Pally can compinsate for a smoother heal over time reducing the effects of oneshot.If you are suggesting a Pally con NOT MT up to HM sullons without dieing you have been proven undisputably wrong by a guild that is only ranked 75th WW.</blockquote>23:50 Gindan pull (yeah I know long one, had some major screw ups for heals on mob). Took 15.4 mil damage tanking adds. Healed 966 HPS for the encounter.That is how much heals do.On that fight a 10% avoidance difference is about 4k HPS worth of damage not factoring MAs and procs on hit.(Bruiser heal parse was 713 hps, Monks was 546 hps)</blockquote>3:37s Hragdold pull, I know short fightPally healed 341,863 HP, Monk healed 52,922Pally healed himself the equivilant of 6 full heals in 3 minutes? Monk almost 1 LOL! Whats your point again?What is your answer on the previous question btw?

Bruener

02-23-2012, 02:28 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont understand your 1k HP? I have Pally healing millions in raid in ACT?Direct comparison Monk healed 138k vs Pally 2.4 Million. Monk is completely dependant on healers to cope with spikes, Pally can compinsate for a smoother heal over time reducing the effects of oneshot.If you are suggesting a Pally con NOT MT up to HM sullons without dieing you have been proven undisputably wrong by a guild that is only ranked 75th WW.</blockquote>23:50 Gindan pull (yeah I know long one, had some major screw ups for heals on mob). Took 15.4 mil damage tanking adds. Healed 966 HPS for the encounter.That is how much heals do.On that fight a 10% avoidance difference is about 4k HPS worth of damage not factoring MAs and procs on hit.(Bruiser heal parse was 713 hps, Monks was 546 hps)</blockquote>3:37s Hragdold pull, I know short fightPally healed 341,863 HP, Monk healed 52,922Pally healed himself the equivilant of 6 full heals in 3 minutes? Monk almost 1 LOL! Whats your point again?What is your answer on the previous question btw?</blockquote>So the Paladin healed a whole 1.5k HPS. Most of which were probably meaningless heals that caught in just before a healer topped them off.That 1.5k HPS doesn't even come close to making up the difference in the amount of times they are hit as well as the damage prevented by damage reduction and one shot prevention.That is my point. That healing does not make up the difference and is unneeded. Every single mechanic that mobs have since DoV seem to favor avoidance tanking and one shot prevention. If you don't get hit you can't get MA'd or Flurried or have a ward ignoring proc hit. If you can easily block an incoming one shot AE your healers don't have to worry about it and it makes things way easier.Not sure what you are looking for here. Just because your Paladin can tank some content that has been nerfed down a ton and isn't even really considered progression doesn't mean that it isn't way easier on the raid in general to have a Brawler tanking the similar mobs and when you get to Progression mobs its no contest.

Damager

02-23-2012, 03:42 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont understand your 1k HP? I have Pally healing millions in raid in ACT?Direct comparison Monk healed 138k vs Pally 2.4 Million. Monk is completely dependant on healers to cope with spikes, Pally can compinsate for a smoother heal over time reducing the effects of oneshot.If you are suggesting a Pally con NOT MT up to HM sullons without dieing you have been proven undisputably wrong by a guild that is only ranked 75th WW.</blockquote>23:50 Gindan pull (yeah I know long one, had some major screw ups for heals on mob). Took 15.4 mil damage tanking adds. Healed 966 HPS for the encounter.That is how much heals do.On that fight a 10% avoidance difference is about 4k HPS worth of damage not factoring MAs and procs on hit.(Bruiser heal parse was 713 hps, Monks was 546 hps)</blockquote>3:37s Hragdold pull, I know short fightPally healed 341,863 HP, Monk healed 52,922Pally healed himself the equivilant of 6 full heals in 3 minutes? Monk almost 1 LOL! Whats your point again?What is your answer on the previous question btw?</blockquote>So the Paladin healed a whole 1.5k HPS. Most of which were probably meaningless heals that caught in just before a healer topped them off.That 1.5k HPS doesn't even come close to making up the difference in the amount of times they are hit as well as the damage prevented by damage reduction and one shot prevention.That is my point. That healing does not make up the difference and is unneeded. Every single mechanic that mobs have since DoV seem to favor avoidance tanking and one shot prevention. If you don't get hit you can't get MA'd or Flurried or have a ward ignoring proc hit. If you can easily block an incoming one shot AE your healers don't have to worry about it and it makes things way easier.Not sure what you are looking for here. Just because your Paladin can tank some content that has been nerfed down a ton and isn't even really considered progression doesn't mean that it isn't way easier on the raid in general to have a Brawler tanking the similar mobs and when you get to Progression mobs its no contest.</blockquote>I believe the Divine Favor that healed 47k HP (Death Prevent) and Multiple 40k HP Lay on Hands say the heals where not meaningless.The nerfed down a ton you speak of is the lowering of mobs strikethrough in the first place.Pally tanked everything in EM Sullons, Tallons, Vallons, all of HM Kraytocs and multiple other HM mobs with no issues. Please specifically state which mob a Pally can not MT. Obviously your progression mob they cant tank is in HM sullons?But we did come to what you want and that is all healing removed from Pallies because it is meaningless and them turned into avoidance tanks. Well there ya go that is what you should put in the next thread as a topic not sure how you get nerf monks cause Pally sucks. rofl.

LardLord

02-23-2012, 03:56 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>The nerfed down a ton you speak of is the lowering of mobs strikethrough in the first place.</blockquote>Actually, between the time the early Sullon's mobs were first killed and the time you first killed them, the damage on the AEs was nearly cut in half. The damage reduction on Haldane was even greater, because he was killed while there was a bug that caused the AEs to apply focus damage erroneously. The only reason this progression was possible was because Brawlers were able to become unkillable juggernauts. Now that the damage is so much lower, you don't really need unkillable juggernauts to tank them, so it's not surprising that your Paladin friend does OK.

Damager

02-23-2012, 04:15 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>The nerfed down a ton you speak of is the lowering of mobs strikethrough in the first place.</blockquote>Actually, between the time the early Sullon's mobs were first killed and the time you first killed them, the damage on the AEs was nearly cut in half. The damage reduction on Haldane was even greater, because he was killed while there was a bug that caused the AEs to apply focus damage erroneously. The only reason this progression was possible was because Brawlers were able to become unkillable juggernauts. Now that the damage is so much lower, you don't really need unkillable juggernauts to tank them, so it's not surprising that your Paladin friend does OK. </blockquote>HUH? You mention all AE stuff and brawlers needed? Monks avoid physical, 1 ward protects against any dameage and it is a 45s recast and Monk must be hit for over 35% of his HP. Technically your description would make Guard (Wards) the preffered tank sir.What does that even have to do with strikethrough? Heh so your saying the unkillable juggernaut who uses his massive strikethrough immunity to avoid AEs and would rez the whole raid so everyone could play is what saved the day? REALLY? You also Just stated Pallies are just fine now so whats this thread about again?

LardLord

02-23-2012, 04:38 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>1 ward protects against any dameage and it is a 45s recast and Monk must be hit for over 35% of his HP</blockquote>You have much to learn before you can become an unkillable juggernaut. Remember, you must have high reuse! If your Superior Guard is taking 45 seconds to refresh, your reuse is not high enough. Meditate on this, young monk, and return once your reuse is high enough.

Rageincarnate

02-23-2012, 04:50 PM

protection value on shields needs to increaseIntercept needs to be a damage and hate intercept.Pallies need a reliable stoneskin and snap agros be able to move and cast aes (all of them) sk's need more snap agros and a straight damage reduction maybe a stoneskin move and cast aes(all of them) need 1 ae with a large range. Some form of hate siphon to deal with large damage spikes. Since sk's arent allowed to dps.I might strangle the person that links a 500k sk parse with 400k of it from other classes. Just fyi.zerkers.. taken out and shot ( i have no clue)Guards .. seem fine..brawlers seem fine

Damager

02-23-2012, 04:54 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>1 ward protects against any dameage and it is a 45s recast and Monk must be hit for over 35% of his HP</blockquote>You have much to learn before you can become an unkillable juggernaut. Remember, you must have high reuse! If your Superior Guard is taking 45 seconds to refresh, your reuse is not high enough. Meditate on this, young monk, and return once your reuse is high enough.</blockquote>33% reuse = 45.1s 83% reuse =32.8sSo the monk can stay in on predictable red text everyone dies except him and he rezes with his godliness?ROFL you do realize the mobs that cast HUGE red text aoe, root themselves and you can just joust right? Or you could just let the tank die and one of the other 2 pick it up while he is rezd like you do on Kraytoc HM (unless your dps is so rediculouse u bypass that)

LardLord

02-23-2012, 05:09 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the monk can stay in on predictable red text everyone dies except him and he rezes with his godliness?ROFL you do realize the mobs that cast HUGE red text aoe, root themselves and you can just joust right?</blockquote>Many AEs without red text are predictable.Many AEs without red text are HUGE.I can show you the path to becoming an unkillable juggernaut, but I can not walk it for you, young monk.

Damager

02-23-2012, 05:11 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the monk can stay in on predictable red text everyone dies except him and he rezes with his godliness?ROFL you do realize the mobs that cast HUGE red text aoe, root themselves and you can just joust right?</blockquote>Many AEs without red text are predictable.Many AEs without red text are HUGE.I can show you the path to becoming an unkillable juggernaut, but I can not walk it for you, young monk.</blockquote>Sweet how do I survive HM Kraytocs death touch ROFL (superior Guard = Dead Monk, 3 Death prevents + healers Death prevent = Dead Monk, Cast every thing you have in one fell swoop= Dead Monk)Any who, red text no red text doesnt matter must be predictable, Best you will get is 32s reuse. And anything predictable you can easily joust or mitigate.

LardLord

02-23-2012, 05:26 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sweet how do I survive HM Kraytocs death touch ROFL</blockquote>Grasp the power, then redirect it. That is all I can tell you.Seek out Master Corydonn if you need further assistance answering your question.

Damager

02-23-2012, 05:32 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sweet how do I survive HM Kraytocs death touch ROFL</blockquote>Grasp the power, then redirect it. That is all I can tell you.Seek out Master Corydonn if you need further assistance answering your question.</blockquote>Easily done for a guard or a pally as well Kind sir, But how does the monk alone become unkillable on said encounter?

LardLord

02-23-2012, 06:00 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>how does the monk alone become unkillable on said encounter?</blockquote>As I told Novice Blanka, there are indeed some situations where unkillable juggernauts can die. Perhaps you have found one here? One can also fly a griffon to a great height and then jump off. It is enjoyable to think of ways that an unkillable juggernaut may be able to die because there so few, but in order to continue on your path to becoming one yourself, you must focus your mind on more productive things, young monk.

Bruener

02-23-2012, 06:07 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sweet how do I survive HM Kraytocs death touch ROFL</blockquote>Grasp the power, then redirect it. That is all I can tell you.Seek out Master Corydonn if you need further assistance answering your question.</blockquote>Easily done for a guard or a pally as well Kind sir, But how does the monk alone become unkillable on said encounter?</blockquote>Go talk to Darkonx on Crushbone. He uses a Monk and a SK. He will tell you how huge the difference is. His words to me last time I talked to him was something like "I don't understand how people even die playing a Monk."

Damager

02-23-2012, 06:31 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sweet how do I survive HM Kraytocs death touch ROFL</blockquote>Grasp the power, then redirect it. That is all I can tell you.Seek out Master Corydonn if you need further assistance answering your question.</blockquote>Easily done for a guard or a pally as well Kind sir, But how does the monk alone become unkillable on said encounter?</blockquote>Go talk to Darkonx on Crushbone. He uses a Monk and a SK. He will tell you how huge the difference is. His words to me last time I talked to him was something like "I don't understand how people even die playing a Monk."</blockquote>The young Monk lead the profit to what the monk wanted him to say. The words of the profit are "Pallies are ok now" and of course that the MOnk can not survive on his own on that encounter and is not an unkillable juggernaut as first stated and what saves him is of course usuable on Guards and Pallies just as easily.OMG a monk and an SK thats beast mode, WOOT! j/kBut really what is it your looking for, you refuse to answer the simplest of questions? Your all over the board from the content needs to change, to nerf brawlers, to Guards are comparible to brawlers, to Pallies need their heals removed and turned into avoidance tanks?Now Rageincarnate is a well played SK, steps into the picture and states he feels Guards and Brawlers are fine, I agree with this. He states what his class and others would need to be on par, that is productive.Why would I talk to Darkonx? Have him walk in EoW and solo it, thats how a monk dies there I answered his question also.One more cup of coffee i should be able to solve world hunger at this rate.

Silzin

02-23-2012, 07:31 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>protection value on shields needs to increaseIntercept needs to be a damage and hate intercept.Pallies need a reliable stoneskin and snap agros be able to move and cast aes (all of them) sk's need more snap agros and a straight damage reduction maybe a stoneskin move and cast aes(all of them) need 1 ae with a large range. Some form of hate siphon to deal with large damage spikes. Since sk's arent allowed to dps.I might strangle the person that links a 500k sk parse with 400k of it from other classes. Just fyi.zerkers.. taken out and shot ( i have no clue)Guards .. seem fine..brawlers seem fine</blockquote>"protection value on shields" - i think that is mobs didnt have ANY strikethrough then the avoidance difference was be within 10%. that means that the Dev's must want there to be this difference. (this is me HOPING that the Dev's have this plan out lol) Hate on Intercept - Very interesting idea, since it has a 1 min 40 sec duration and a +/- 20 sec recast this would need a lot of looking into. Pally's - ya i can agree that they need a Stoneskin and a ST snap. i am thinking Holy Aid is a good candidate for looking at? SK's i am not sure i have seen them played very well and have no agro problems and have a lot more AoE agro then anything i can think of bringing. as for a stoneskin... not sure they are the "Offensive Crusader" there is one comment that i have heard somewhere around hear that i am liking more and more but for all classes. give all classes a healing pool that extras healing generated from them would go into it and have a 3-10 sec duration in the pool? the pool would to be not more than the players health and healers would need a pool for each person they are healing... thinking it may get complicated to track after all, but it's an interesting idea that would help the crusaders a lot in so many ways.

Bruener

02-23-2012, 07:45 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sweet how do I survive HM Kraytocs death touch ROFL</blockquote>Grasp the power, then redirect it. That is all I can tell you.Seek out Master Corydonn if you need further assistance answering your question.</blockquote>Easily done for a guard or a pally as well Kind sir, But how does the monk alone become unkillable on said encounter?</blockquote>Go talk to Darkonx on Crushbone. He uses a Monk and a SK. He will tell you how huge the difference is. His words to me last time I talked to him was something like "I don't understand how people even die playing a Monk."</blockquote>The young Monk lead the profit to what the monk wanted him to say. The words of the profit are "Pallies are ok now" and of course that the MOnk can not survive on his own on that encounter and is not an unkillable juggernaut as first stated and what saves him is of course usuable on Guards and Pallies just as easily.OMG a monk and an SK thats beast mode, WOOT! j/kBut really what is it your looking for, you refuse to answer the simplest of questions? Your all over the board from the content needs to change, to nerf brawlers, to Guards are comparible to brawlers, to Pallies need their heals removed and turned into avoidance tanks?Now Rageincarnate is a well played SK, steps into the picture and states he feels Guards and Brawlers are fine, I agree with this. He states what his class and others would need to be on par, that is productive.Why would I talk to Darkonx? Have him walk in EoW and solo it, thats how a monk dies there I answered his question also.One more cup of coffee i should be able to solve world hunger at this rate.</blockquote>Its simple really.Remove strike through immunity because it just messes up the mechanic and makes it hard to balance around. It doesn't allow it to work as its intended.For Crusaders make healing actually viable and not completely useless. As Sizlin said above, which I believe was Atan's idea originally, maybe some type of ward pool that extra heals can go into that would allow them to actually make a difference.For SKs make Bloodletter castable In-combat and some better over time snap capability like making Furor proc 1 hate position.For Paladins adding an additional one-shot prevention on a decent reuse. Some snap agro help.For Zerkers, honestly idk because I have heard both sides on how useful they are. Personally I would rework their reactive heal type abilities because honestly it never fit with the class and push it into something like DR.You do these things and than look at Fighters again and see if more tweaks need to happen. Yes, Brawlers will "feel" like they get nerfed because they currently monopolize an immunity to a mechanic that is there to specifically lower uncontested avoidance and keep it in check while also being the ones with significantly higher avoidance. Not sure how Brawlers can honestly justify having immunity to it right now since the gap in physical damage taken vs hp pool size has shrunk up significantly. I like to use an example of lets say SOE created a new mechanic that ignored mitigation or something similar like damage reduction, than they gave 2 tanks immunity to it while the other ones all had to deal with it.

Novusod

02-23-2012, 10:33 PM

These whine threads are so stupid especialy ones started by Talthion.Brawlers who were arround before strikethrough immunity know why it was given to them. Brawlers were designed to be the avoidance tanks but plate tanks had more avoidance than brawlers. It was completely broken ballance wise. Putting in strikethrough immunity fixed the issue and restored the respectability of the brawler class. Brawlers were always supposed to be the "kings of defense." Just because the plate tanks had more avoidance than brawlers a few expansions back does not mean they are entitled to that privledge forever. When one class can do one thing and another class can do another that is called ballance. Plate tanks can tank pretty much every mob in the game regardless. Class ballance is the best it has ever been as no tank currently has a monopoly.You know what most plate tanks are fine with the way things are. It is just the same few loud whiners who keep posting about the same nonsence.

Bruener

02-23-2012, 10:40 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>These whine threads are so stupid especialy ones started by Talthion.Brawlers who were arround before strikethrough immunity know why it was given to them. Brawlers were designed to be the avoidance tanks but plate tanks had more avoidance than brawlers. It was completely broken ballance wise. Putting in strikethrough immunity fixed the issue and restored the respectability of the brawler class. Brawlers were always supposed to be the "kings of defense." Just because the plate tanks had more avoidance than brawlers a few expansions back does not mean they are entitled to that privledge forever. When one class can do one thing and another class can do another that is called ballance. Plate tanks can tank pretty much every mob in the game regardless. Class ballance is the best it has ever been as no tank currently has a monopoly.You know what most plate tanks are fine with the way things are. It is just the same few loud whiners who keep posting about the same nonsence.</blockquote>Lol, what a load this read was. Gave me a good chuckle.....king of defense and all that. Class balance being good. Most plate tanks being fine.Oh wait...you are also the one that posted that its not balanced, but because of F2P its the way it had to be.You have discredited yourself to post. Move along.

Novusod

02-23-2012, 10:56 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>These whine threads are so stupid especialy ones started by Talthion.Brawlers who were arround before strikethrough immunity know why it was given to them. Brawlers were designed to be the avoidance tanks but plate tanks had more avoidance than brawlers. It was completely broken ballance wise. Putting in strikethrough immunity fixed the issue and restored the respectability of the brawler class. Brawlers were always supposed to be the "kings of defense." Just because the plate tanks had more avoidance than brawlers a few expansions back does not mean they are entitled to that privledge forever. When one class can do one thing and another class can do another that is called ballance. Plate tanks can tank pretty much every mob in the game regardless. Class ballance is the best it has ever been as no tank currently has a monopoly.You know what most plate tanks are fine with the way things are. It is just the same few loud whiners who keep posting about the same nonsence.</blockquote>Lol, what a load this read was. Gave me a good chuckle.....king of defense and all that. Class balance being good. Most plate tanks being fine.Oh wait...you are also the one that posted that its not balanced, but because of F2P its the way it had to be.You have discredited yourself to post. Move along.</blockquote>Indeed F2P is part of class ballance now. What I said about F2P doesn't change the truth of anything I said above. Class ballance is all working as intended.

Aull

02-23-2012, 11:59 PM

I for one disagree that brawlers were always suppose to be the "kings of defense". If that was true then brawlers would have had more defensive abilities than what they were given to fulfill that statement. Of the two brawlers the monk had better defensive abilities than the bruiser ever had of that era. Bruisers from level 1-79 didn't have any great damage absorbtion/prevention/100% avoidance defensive abilities that made any other fighter jealous.One of the reasons the fighters are in the mess they are today is because the original vision for the fighters was lost when Moorguard left and the others filled in.Now I will agree that just a few years back plate tanks had far better mit and their avoidance was on par with what the brawlers had and plates were the fighters that others wanted for the tanking position.Everyone wants their fighter to be king of the hill and others below them. I think that is why we have the heated debates all the time.

Novusod

02-24-2012, 01:40 AM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I for one disagree that brawlers were always suppose to be the "kings of defense". If that was true then brawlers would have had more defensive abilities than what they were given to fulfill that statement. Of the two brawlers the monk had better defensive abilities than the bruiser ever had of that era. Bruisers from level 1-79 didn't have any great damage absorbtion/prevention/100% avoidance defensive abilities that made any other fighter jealous.One of the reasons the fighters are in the mess they are today is because the original vision for the fighters was lost when Moorguard left and the others filled in.Now I will agree that just a few years back plate tanks had far better mit and their avoidance was on par with what the brawlers had and plates were the fighters that others wanted for the tanking position.Everyone wants their fighter to be king of the hill and others below them. I think that is why we have the heated debates all the time. </blockquote>The original promise of the fighter archtype was that all the fighters would be able to do the same tasks but they would accomplish them through different means. Brawlers were supposed to be the defensive avoidance kings. Warriors are stoneskin mitigators and crusaders have life taps and heals. Problem was the game was so poorly ballanced in the early days it took a long time to ballance those mechanics. But the way the game is now is the way it is supposed to be.

Talathion

02-24-2012, 04:15 AM

When Brawlers were given strikethrough immunity, they had alot less mitigation and damage reduction and only a 2 trigger death save with a longer reuse then they do now.Now that they have High Mitigation and VERY High damage reduction (almost prenerf Adrenaline Levels.), 1.5x the Avoidance, and Strikethrough Immunity, and more Death Prevents, as well as the fact they do not sacrifice any damage to gain these incredable defences, they are literally best of both offense and defense.Its now stupid, and silly.The only thing I can say is, make brawler's tenacity have a 50% chance to trigger or remove strikethrough immunity.Giving there 3 Trigger death prevent a 50% chance of working would work better with how they used to be, avoidance that relied more on luck and chance of avoiding death by dodging it, kind of like how feign death used to work as well.

Bruener

02-24-2012, 11:09 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I for one disagree that brawlers were always suppose to be the "kings of defense". If that was true then brawlers would have had more defensive abilities than what they were given to fulfill that statement. Of the two brawlers the monk had better defensive abilities than the bruiser ever had of that era. Bruisers from level 1-79 didn't have any great damage absorbtion/prevention/100% avoidance defensive abilities that made any other fighter jealous.One of the reasons the fighters are in the mess they are today is because the original vision for the fighters was lost when Moorguard left and the others filled in.Now I will agree that just a few years back plate tanks had far better mit and their avoidance was on par with what the brawlers had and plates were the fighters that others wanted for the tanking position.Everyone wants their fighter to be king of the hill and others below them. I think that is why we have the heated debates all the time. </blockquote>The original promise of the fighter archtype was that all the fighters would be able to do the same tasks but they would accomplish them through different means. Brawlers were supposed to be the defensive avoidance kings. Warriors are stoneskin mitigators and crusaders have life taps and heals. Problem was the game was so poorly ballanced in the early days it took a long time to ballance those mechanics. But the way the game is now is the way it is supposed to be.</blockquote>Waited to post this until today, hoping that you put down the crack pipe last night.Nobody is arguing that Brawlers should be the avoidance kings. Its the levels of mitigation they have now, the damage reduction that they have now, the superior death save that they have now, and the stoneskins that they have now that in combination with that avoidance is too much. Maybe we should talk about stripping those down since they are superior to other Fighters in those regards and your words those are supposed to be the realms of others.If warriors are supposed to be the stoneskin damage mitigators why are the Brawlers owning this area?If Crusaders are supposed to rely on Lifetaps and Heals why are they absolute garbage in end game play? I mean I don't get to push out 4-5k HPS consistently to make up for the avoidance advantage Brawlers get to have (not to mention all the other abilities listed above). Realistically all those lifetaps would have to be changed into some type of ward form to cover the difference.Oh thats right. You think it is alright because of F2P. In other words you know that it is not even close to balanced at all, but because of how F2P works and which classes are available when YOU think that this is how it has to be. Such a hypocrit.EDIT: Just so that there isn't any confusion just because Brawlers are avoidance kings strike through immunity still needs to go. The need for it isn't there any more because of all the other luxuries Brawlers have been given since and it completely unbalances what the strike through mechanic was designed to do. SOE should have that mechanic to help limit ALL Fighter avoidance the % they need to instead of all but the 2 highest avoidance tanks that already would be getting hit way less.

Bruener

02-24-2012, 11:14 AM

Darkonx wrote: Brawlers are still incredibly god-like OP in comparison to every other tank. To a degree that it's mind-boggling how the entire SOE dev-team doesn't make it their #1 priority on a daily basis to fix. I've tanked everything on both, and believe me, BRAWLERS ARE BROKEN.Quote from the other thread from somebody that actually plays a Plate tank and a Brawler in high end raiding.

Rageincarnate

02-24-2012, 12:08 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>protection value on shields needs to increaseIntercept needs to be a damage and hate intercept.Pallies need a reliable stoneskin and snap agros be able to move and cast aes (all of them) sk's need more snap agros and a straight damage reduction maybe a stoneskin move and cast aes(all of them) need 1 ae with a large range. Some form of hate siphon to deal with large damage spikes. Since sk's arent allowed to dps.I might strangle the person that links a 500k sk parse with 400k of it from other classes. Just fyi.zerkers.. taken out and shot ( i have no clue)Guards .. seem fine..brawlers seem fine</blockquote>SK's i am not sure i have seen them played very well and have no agro problems and have a lot more AoE agro then anything i can think of bringing. as for a stoneskin... not sure they are the "Offensive Crusader" </blockquote>Very very very group dependant imo. I think in a mage group/dps group, yes sk's can rock the hate. In cruddy groups an sk is literally screwed. Looking at parses and seeing things such as elemental tox #1 on a sk's parse tells me somethings wrong. It is 100% ok to disagree. I'm just telling you how i'm thinking. ( i personally have broke 400k+ a few times on my sk. It's not hard really in a mage group anyways.) And everytime that huge parse came from warlocks troubs inquis and conjs. Not me..I'm really not sure how to balance it really. But i think it could use "something" I'll leave that for my betters. Just giving my input.

Banditman

02-24-2012, 12:23 PM

Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now. There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up. Can you imagine it? Strange but true.Mobs simply hit way too hard now. Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike. It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations. If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.Aside: I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals. Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well. Etc.In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall. For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable. That cannot be downplayed.I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.

Damager

02-24-2012, 12:34 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Darkonx wrote: Brawlers are still incredibly god-like OP in comparison to every other tank. To a degree that it's mind-boggling how the entire SOE dev-team doesn't make it their #1 priority on a daily basis to fix. I've tanked everything on both, and believe me, BRAWLERS ARE BROKEN.Quote from the other thread from somebody that actually plays a Plate tank and a Brawler in high end raiding.</blockquote>Compared to an SK yes I agree brawlers are more survivable, better snap agro, SK has better sustained agro however. Compared to a Guard nope, their pretty close, minor tweaking these two would be on par and would be what other tanks should be striving for.The funny thing people are not undertsanding is that since 3 of the 6 fighters are very close you really cant call them OP like when the single SK dominated every catagory. The people that say fighters are more balanced then ever before are correct also 50% of the fighters can now effectively tank the content. Guard, Brawler and sk/pally are now all 3 common place in raid and should be no problem to switch around to the mob at hand. The problem is many MTs want one that can do it all, so they roll with the one that is most versitile This is actually debateable on which this one is, for the first time playing EQ2 there is an actual competion between more than one fighter for MT.The ones that need help in particular areas are not getting it due to people more concerned with nerfing brawlers then the are of making their own class comparable tanks. I mean really the biggest complaint on brawler is superior guard and strikethrough immunity superior guard isnt a big deal to give to anyone and could be easily justified if people focused on that, the strikethrough on mobs was reduced when constructivly asked for by other fighters. Rambling on about nerfing a class because they can tank the content is non productive and in turn would mean changing the content anyway.

Damager

02-24-2012, 12:35 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now. There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up. Can you imagine it? Strange but true.Mobs simply hit way too hard now. Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike. It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations. If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.Aside: I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals. Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well. Etc.In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall. For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable. That cannot be downplayed.I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.</blockquote>THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^...Tallathion and Bruener are more concerened with nobody being able to effectively tank the current content then everybody being able to /sigh.

Rageincarnate

02-24-2012, 12:39 PM

Damager

02-24-2012, 12:40 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I for one disagree that brawlers were always suppose to be the "kings of defense". If that was true then brawlers would have had more defensive abilities than what they were given to fulfill that statement. Of the two brawlers the monk had better defensive abilities than the bruiser ever had of that era. Bruisers from level 1-79 didn't have any great damage absorbtion/prevention/100% avoidance defensive abilities that made any other fighter jealous.One of the reasons the fighters are in the mess they are today is because the original vision for the fighters was lost when Moorguard left and the others filled in.Now I will agree that just a few years back plate tanks had far better mit and their avoidance was on par with what the brawlers had and plates were the fighters that others wanted for the tanking position.Everyone wants their fighter to be king of the hill and others below them. I think that is why we have the heated debates all the time. </blockquote>The original promise of the fighter archtype was that all the fighters would be able to do the same tasks but they would accomplish them through different means. Brawlers were supposed to be the defensive avoidance kings. Warriors are stoneskin mitigators and crusaders have life taps and heals. Problem was the game was so poorly ballanced in the early days it took a long time to ballance those mechanics. But the way the game is now is the way it is supposed to be.</blockquote>If warriors are supposed to be the stoneskin damage mitigators why are the Brawlers owning this area?</blockquote>Good question since Monk has Zero stoneskins how are they owning this area? Its mind boggling right?So thats the trick, when the Monk uses all zero of his stoneskins at once he becomes the unkillable juggernaut ROFL! Cast them fast people!!!

Bruener

02-24-2012, 12:59 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I for one disagree that brawlers were always suppose to be the "kings of defense". If that was true then brawlers would have had more defensive abilities than what they were given to fulfill that statement. Of the two brawlers the monk had better defensive abilities than the bruiser ever had of that era. Bruisers from level 1-79 didn't have any great damage absorbtion/prevention/100% avoidance defensive abilities that made any other fighter jealous.One of the reasons the fighters are in the mess they are today is because the original vision for the fighters was lost when Moorguard left and the others filled in.Now I will agree that just a few years back plate tanks had far better mit and their avoidance was on par with what the brawlers had and plates were the fighters that others wanted for the tanking position.Everyone wants their fighter to be king of the hill and others below them. I think that is why we have the heated debates all the time. </blockquote>The original promise of the fighter archtype was that all the fighters would be able to do the same tasks but they would accomplish them through different means. Brawlers were supposed to be the defensive avoidance kings. Warriors are stoneskin mitigators and crusaders have life taps and heals. Problem was the game was so poorly ballanced in the early days it took a long time to ballance those mechanics. But the way the game is now is the way it is supposed to be.</blockquote>If warriors are supposed to be the stoneskin damage mitigators why are the Brawlers owning this area?</blockquote>Good question since Monk has Zero stoneskins how are they owning this area? Its mind boggling right?Like previously stated when the Monk uses all zero of his stoneskins at once he becomes the unkillable juggernaut ROFL! Cast them fast people!!!</blockquote>Are stoneskins the only damage mitigators? Do you not consider damage reduction and mit buffs mitigators of damage?Yeah that is what I thought.

Bruener

02-24-2012, 01:00 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now. There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up. Can you imagine it? Strange but true.Mobs simply hit way too hard now. Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike. It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations. If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.Aside: I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals. Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well. Etc.In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall. For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable. That cannot be downplayed.I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.</blockquote>Cutting damage would solve some problems.</blockquote>Eventually when they nerf mobs down to make other tanks seem viable that is what they do. This is not what happens for progression though which is where the real imbalance is.

Damager

02-24-2012, 01:01 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I for one disagree that brawlers were always suppose to be the "kings of defense". If that was true then brawlers would have had more defensive abilities than what they were given to fulfill that statement. Of the two brawlers the monk had better defensive abilities than the bruiser ever had of that era. Bruisers from level 1-79 didn't have any great damage absorbtion/prevention/100% avoidance defensive abilities that made any other fighter jealous.One of the reasons the fighters are in the mess they are today is because the original vision for the fighters was lost when Moorguard left and the others filled in.Now I will agree that just a few years back plate tanks had far better mit and their avoidance was on par with what the brawlers had and plates were the fighters that others wanted for the tanking position.Everyone wants their fighter to be king of the hill and others below them. I think that is why we have the heated debates all the time. </blockquote>The original promise of the fighter archtype was that all the fighters would be able to do the same tasks but they would accomplish them through different means. Brawlers were supposed to be the defensive avoidance kings. Warriors are stoneskin mitigators and crusaders have life taps and heals. Problem was the game was so poorly ballanced in the early days it took a long time to ballance those mechanics. But the way the game is now is the way it is supposed to be.</blockquote>If warriors are supposed to be the stoneskin damage mitigators why are the Brawlers owning this area?</blockquote>Good question since Monk has Zero stoneskins how are they owning this area? Its mind boggling right?Like previously stated when the Monk uses all zero of his stoneskins at once he becomes the unkillable juggernaut ROFL! Cast them fast people!!!</blockquote>Are stoneskins the only damage mitigators? Do you not consider damage reduction and mit buffs mitigators of damage?Yeah that is what I thought.</blockquote>He specificly said the area of "stoneskin" damage mitigators. ROFL! I cant say bruisers cause well they do have stoneskins /shrug Monk is compairable with their reactive heal but u say thats not meaningful.

Bruener

02-24-2012, 01:07 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now. There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up. Can you imagine it? Strange but true.Mobs simply hit way too hard now. Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike. It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations. If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.Aside: I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals. Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well. Etc.In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall. For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable. That cannot be downplayed.I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.</blockquote>THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^...Tallathion and Bruener are more concerened with nobody being able to effectively tank the current content then everybody being able to /sigh.</blockquote>Again you guys seem to have pathetic sight on mechanics and balance. Do you understand at all why the strike through mechanic was introduced? Do you understand how it is being used ineffectively now since 2 Fighters are immune to it?We all understand that strike through immunity was a quick, easy band-aid fix to help Brawlers at the time from being streaky. That time is over and allowing the strike through mechanic to be used correctly would be an advantage to keep fighter avoidance in check (its whole original design). The fact that you are defending having the mechanic used correctly because you are worried you will actually feel what it is like when they are introducing mobs with strike through and how significant of a difference it makes say a lot about how you really feel about balance. Put strike through on an even playing field and if mobs are unbalanced it will be obvious across all Fighters instead of Brawler pushing all progression like in today's game.You all silently acknowledge the difference in strike through that happens every time progression is introduced but none of you want to have to deal with it like the other tanks until they nerf it. That is a bogus out instead of seeing things balanced.

Damager

02-24-2012, 01:14 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now. There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up. Can you imagine it? Strange but true.Mobs simply hit way too hard now. Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike. It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations. If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.Aside: I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals. Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well. Etc.In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall. For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable. That cannot be downplayed.I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.</blockquote>THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^...Tallathion and Bruener are more concerened with nobody being able to effectively tank the current content then everybody being able to /sigh.</blockquote>Again you guys seem to have pathetic sight on mechanics and balance. Do you understand at all why the strike through mechanic was introduced? Do you understand how it is being used ineffectively now since 2 Fighters are immune to it?We all understand that strike through immunity was a quick, easy band-aid fix to help Brawlers at the time from being streaky. That time is over and allowing the strike through mechanic to be used correctly would be an advantage to keep fighter avoidance in check (its whole original design). The fact that you are defending having the mechanic used correctly because you are worried you will actually feel what it is like when they are introducing mobs with strike through and how significant of a difference it makes say a lot about how you really feel about balance. Put strike through on an even playing field and if mobs are unbalanced it will be obvious across all Fighters instead of Brawler pushing all progression like in today's game.You all silently acknowledge the difference in strike through that happens every time progression is introduced but none of you want to have to deal with it like the other tanks until they nerf it. That is a bogus out instead of seeing things balanced.</blockquote>Incorrect sir. Strikethrough was introduced to bring down plate tanks avoidance. Strikethrough immune was introduced because strikethrough from the mobs negated the brawlers avaoidance. The "streakiness" of the brawler was fixed with their reactives not strikethrough immunity.

Talathion

02-24-2012, 01:21 PM

Simply making Brawler's Tenacity a 50% chance to proc instead of a 100% chance and removing ST Immunity would be a big step to balancing the tank classes.This way a brawler would have a "chance" to avoid death, instead of being unstoppable juggernauts.Also, there needs to be something installed to bring down there autoattack damage down to what a "sword and board" tank has to have, like removing there innate protection and adding protection on there weapons.The weapons with lots of protection would have less damage.Right now playing a monk is like having a Guardian with more avoidance/ST Immunity and the ability to use a two-hander and 2 shields at the same time, all with a 3 trigger death save.

Banditman

02-24-2012, 01:35 PM

Would someone please use a little of their spare SC and buy Tala a clue?

Damager

02-24-2012, 01:37 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simply making Brawler's Tenacity a 50% chance to proc instead of a 100% chance and removing ST Immunity would be a big step to balancing the tank classes.This way a brawler would have a "chance" to avoid death, instead of being unstoppable juggernauts.Also, there needs to be something installed to bring down there autoattack damage down to what a "sword and board" tank has to have, like removing there innate protection and adding protection on there weapons.The weapons with lots of protection would have less damage.Right now playing a monk is like having a Guardian with more avoidance/ST Immunity and the ability to use a two-hander and 2 shields at the same time, all with a 3 trigger death save.</blockquote>Uhmm thats just silly, reduce the number of death prevents maybe (personnaly I only have 2 spec'd), Your way every fighter with death prevent would also need theirs a 50% chance as well and need changed to a clicky and not always up to balance the same ability. You sir are trying to just nerf brawlers not even attempting class balance. So here we have it death prevent is a shared ability and in order to balance all fighters would have to react the same.We already clarrified they are not unstoppable juggernauts roflBring down autoattack damage? Its called defensive stance which the brawler must be in in order to have strikethrough immunity.the weapons with lots of protection already do. They have no MA on them.

Silzin

02-24-2012, 01:51 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simply making Brawler's Tenacity a 50% chance to proc instead of a 100% chance and removing ST Immunity would be a big step to balancing the tank classes.This way a brawler would have a "chance" to avoid death, instead of being unstoppable juggernauts.Also, there needs to be something installed to bring down there autoattack damage down to what a "sword and board" tank has to have, like removing there innate protection and adding protection on there weapons.The weapons with lots of protection would have less damage.Right now playing a monk is like having a Guardian with more avoidance/ST Immunity and the ability to use a two-hander and 2 shields at the same time, all with a 3 trigger death save.</blockquote>Tala, if you think that Zerkers and Guards need to be able to do more damage when using a shield (and any other changes) them start a thread like you do and try to compose a logical argument for this change to go in and then something good may come out of your posting on the forums. dont ask for everything in the world for your class and dont ask for other classes to be nurfed, the dev's dont look at those very much.

Bruener

02-24-2012, 02:09 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now. There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up. Can you imagine it? Strange but true.Mobs simply hit way too hard now. Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike. It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations. If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.Aside: I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals. Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well. Etc.In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall. For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable. That cannot be downplayed.I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.</blockquote>THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^...Tallathion and Bruener are more concerened with nobody being able to effectively tank the current content then everybody being able to /sigh.</blockquote>Again you guys seem to have pathetic sight on mechanics and balance. Do you understand at all why the strike through mechanic was introduced? Do you understand how it is being used ineffectively now since 2 Fighters are immune to it?We all understand that strike through immunity was a quick, easy band-aid fix to help Brawlers at the time from being streaky. That time is over and allowing the strike through mechanic to be used correctly would be an advantage to keep fighter avoidance in check (its whole original design). The fact that you are defending having the mechanic used correctly because you are worried you will actually feel what it is like when they are introducing mobs with strike through and how significant of a difference it makes say a lot about how you really feel about balance. Put strike through on an even playing field and if mobs are unbalanced it will be obvious across all Fighters instead of Brawler pushing all progression like in today's game.You all silently acknowledge the difference in strike through that happens every time progression is introduced but none of you want to have to deal with it like the other tanks until they nerf it. That is a bogus out instead of seeing things balanced.</blockquote>Incorrect sir. Strikethrough was introduced to bring down plate tanks avoidance. Strikethrough immune was introduced because strikethrough from the mobs negated the brawlers avaoidance. The "streakiness" of the brawler was fixed with their reactives not strikethrough immunity.</blockquote>That makes no sense. They introduced strike through. It wasn't for a while before they introduced strike through immunity for Brawlers because they were streaky. It was a lot easier to give Brawlers strike through immunity to negate it as a band-aid. Than they addressed Brawler survivability in general and since have made it so that there is absolutely no more of a chance of a "bad roll" causing death.The band aid is unnecessary and just causing problems now with content balancing. Easy recent example is EoW...which once again Brawlers could go tank with a solo healer because their avoidance was such a big factor and they were not getting struck through. Meanwhile to be able to tank it as a Plate tank with a solo healer you NEEDED to have a Brawler in there to give you their avoidance, which at that point why not just use the Brawler? I guarantee that in PoW the adds on the boar have too high of strike through once again.

Damager

02-24-2012, 02:22 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now. There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up. Can you imagine it? Strange but true.Mobs simply hit way too hard now. Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike. It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations. If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.Aside: I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals. Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well. Etc.In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall. For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable. That cannot be downplayed.I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.</blockquote>THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^...Tallathion and Bruener are more concerened with nobody being able to effectively tank the current content then everybody being able to /sigh.</blockquote>Again you guys seem to have pathetic sight on mechanics and balance. Do you understand at all why the strike through mechanic was introduced? Do you understand how it is being used ineffectively now since 2 Fighters are immune to it?We all understand that strike through immunity was a quick, easy band-aid fix to help Brawlers at the time from being streaky. That time is over and allowing the strike through mechanic to be used correctly would be an advantage to keep fighter avoidance in check (its whole original design). The fact that you are defending having the mechanic used correctly because you are worried you will actually feel what it is like when they are introducing mobs with strike through and how significant of a difference it makes say a lot about how you really feel about balance. Put strike through on an even playing field and if mobs are unbalanced it will be obvious across all Fighters instead of Brawler pushing all progression like in today's game.You all silently acknowledge the difference in strike through that happens every time progression is introduced but none of you want to have to deal with it like the other tanks until they nerf it. That is a bogus out instead of seeing things balanced.</blockquote>Incorrect sir. Strikethrough was introduced to bring down plate tanks avoidance. Strikethrough immune was introduced because strikethrough from the mobs negated the brawlers avaoidance. The "streakiness" of the brawler was fixed with their reactives not strikethrough immunity.</blockquote>That makes no sense. They introduced strike through. It wasn't for a while before they introduced strike through immunity for Brawlers because they were streaky. It was a lot easier to give Brawlers strike through immunity to negate it as a band-aid. Than they addressed Brawler survivability in general and since have made it so that there is absolutely no more of a chance of a "bad roll" causing death.The band aid is unnecessary and just causing problems now with content balancing. Easy recent example is EoW...which once again Brawlers could go tank with a solo healer because their avoidance was such a big factor and they were not getting struck through. Meanwhile to be able to tank it as a Plate tank with a solo healer you NEEDED to have a Brawler in there to give you their avoidance, which at that point why not just use the Brawler? I guarantee that in PoW the adds on the boar have too high of strike through once again.</blockquote>ROFL! Roll a Pally they tank EoW easily with single healer, Rageincarnate does it on his SK, ROFL Watched a guard Tank HM Zek single healer.Raid Nights I watch a Guard Tank HM Sullons up to Sullon no problem.What makes no sense is you think they just introduced strikethrough because it was tuesday and they had nothin better to do ROFL!

LardLord

02-24-2012, 02:25 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>(personnaly I only have 2 spec'd)We already clarrified they are not unstoppable juggernauts rofl</blockquote>Well you're clearly not, but other Brawlers are. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" />

Damager

02-24-2012, 02:29 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>(personnaly I only have 2 spec'd)We already clarrified they are not unstoppable juggernauts rofl</blockquote>Well you're clearly not, but other Brawlers are. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Sorry sir, You proved yourself wrong already move along. Unless you have how a brawler alone survives the HM Kraytocs now?

LardLord

02-24-2012, 02:38 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>(personnaly I only have 2 spec'd)We already clarrified they are not unstoppable juggernauts rofl</blockquote>Well you're clearly not, but other Brawlers are. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Sorry sir, You proved yourself wrong already move along. Unless you have how a brawler alone survives the HM Kraytocs now?</blockquote>That argument is silly, much like your heroic AA spec <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />I bet they could massively nerf the class by balancing that heroic AA and changing Tenacity and the other saves to have an unmoddable reuse, and you wouldn't even notice the difference, since you don't take advantage of those things.

Rageincarnate

02-24-2012, 02:56 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now. There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up. Can you imagine it? Strange but true.Mobs simply hit way too hard now. Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike. It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations. If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.Aside: I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals. Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well. Etc.In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall. For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable. That cannot be downplayed.I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.</blockquote>THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^...Tallathion and Bruener are more concerened with nobody being able to effectively tank the current content then everybody being able to /sigh.</blockquote>Again you guys seem to have pathetic sight on mechanics and balance. Do you understand at all why the strike through mechanic was introduced? Do you understand how it is being used ineffectively now since 2 Fighters are immune to it?We all understand that strike through immunity was a quick, easy band-aid fix to help Brawlers at the time from being streaky. That time is over and allowing the strike through mechanic to be used correctly would be an advantage to keep fighter avoidance in check (its whole original design). The fact that you are defending having the mechanic used correctly because you are worried you will actually feel what it is like when they are introducing mobs with strike through and how significant of a difference it makes say a lot about how you really feel about balance. Put strike through on an even playing field and if mobs are unbalanced it will be obvious across all Fighters instead of Brawler pushing all progression like in today's game.You all silently acknowledge the difference in strike through that happens every time progression is introduced but none of you want to have to deal with it like the other tanks until they nerf it. That is a bogus out instead of seeing things balanced.</blockquote>Incorrect sir. Strikethrough was introduced to bring down plate tanks avoidance. Strikethrough immune was introduced because strikethrough from the mobs negated the brawlers avaoidance. The "streakiness" of the brawler was fixed with their reactives not strikethrough immunity.</blockquote>That makes no sense. They introduced strike through. It wasn't for a while before they introduced strike through immunity for Brawlers because they were streaky. It was a lot easier to give Brawlers strike through immunity to negate it as a band-aid. Than they addressed Brawler survivability in general and since have made it so that there is absolutely no more of a chance of a "bad roll" causing death.The band aid is unnecessary and just causing problems now with content balancing. Easy recent example is EoW...which once again Brawlers could go tank with a solo healer because their avoidance was such a big factor and they were not getting struck through. Meanwhile to be able to tank it as a Plate tank with a solo healer you NEEDED to have a Brawler in there to give you their avoidance, which at that point why not just use the Brawler? I guarantee that in PoW the adds on the boar have too high of strike through once again.</blockquote>ROFL! Roll a Pally they tank EoW easily with single healer, Rageincarnate does it on his SK, ROFL Watched a guard Tank HM Zek single healer.Raid Nights I watch a Guard Tank HM Sullons up to Sullon no problem.What makes no sense is you think they just introduced strikethrough because it was tuesday and they had nothin better to do ROFL!</blockquote>HM eow? dude. I get whupped hard by incoming damage on the group of 3. I run out of toys, heal parse spikes to 50k hps then i die. We havent tried for awhile... it's annoying >< and it makes me not want to login.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 03:44 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>I for one disagree that brawlers were always suppose to be the "kings of defense". If that was true then brawlers would have had more defensive abilities than what they were given to fulfill that statement. Of the two brawlers the monk had better defensive abilities than the bruiser ever had of that era. Bruisers from level 1-79 didn't have any great damage absorbtion/prevention/100% avoidance defensive abilities that made any other fighter jealous.One of the reasons the fighters are in the mess they are today is because the original vision for the fighters was lost when Moorguard left and the others filled in.Now I will agree that just a few years back plate tanks had far better mit and their avoidance was on par with what the brawlers had and plates were the fighters that others wanted for the tanking position.Everyone wants their fighter to be king of the hill and others below them. I think that is why we have the heated debates all the time. </blockquote>The original promise of the fighter archtype was that all the fighters would be able to do the same tasks but they would accomplish them through different means. Brawlers were supposed to be the defensive avoidance kings. Warriors are stoneskin mitigators and crusaders have life taps and heals. Problem was the game was so poorly ballanced in the early days it took a long time to ballance those mechanics. But the way the game is now is the way it is supposed to be.</blockquote>If warriors are supposed to be the stoneskin damage mitigators why are the Brawlers owning this area?</blockquote>Good question since Monk has Zero stoneskins how are they owning this area? Its mind boggling right?So thats the trick, when the Monk uses all zero of his stoneskins at once he becomes the unkillable juggernaut ROFL! Cast them fast people!!!</blockquote>Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 03:46 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simply making Brawler's Tenacity a 50% chance to proc instead of a 100% chance and removing ST Immunity would be a big step to balancing the tank classes.This way a brawler would have a "chance" to avoid death, instead of being unstoppable juggernauts.Also, there needs to be something installed to bring down there autoattack damage down to what a "sword and board" tank has to have, like removing there innate protection and adding protection on there weapons.The weapons with lots of protection would have less damage.Right now playing a monk is like having a Guardian with more avoidance/ST Immunity and the ability to use a two-hander and 2 shields at the same time, all with a 3 trigger death save.</blockquote>Uhmm thats just silly, reduce the number of death prevents maybe (personnaly I only have 2 spec'd), Your way every fighter with death prevent would also need theirs a 50% chance as well and need changed to a clicky and not always up to balance the same ability. You sir are trying to just nerf brawlers not even attempting class balance. So here we have it death prevent is a shared ability and in order to balance all fighters would have to react the same.We already clarrified they are not unstoppable juggernauts roflBring down autoattack damage? Its called defensive stance which the brawler must be in in order to have strikethrough immunity.the weapons with lots of protection already do. They have no MA on them. </blockquote>You only have 2 of your DI triggers in your spec. Clearly you are not on the cutting edge of content where tank choice truly matters. Ok. Good to know.

Talathion

02-24-2012, 03:55 PM

Brawlers Defensive Stance lowers there autoattack damage?

LardLord

02-24-2012, 03:56 PM

Bruener

02-24-2012, 04:11 PM

Is this some Monk just doing Heroic content arguing with us or something?Silly.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 04:13 PM

What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 25 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 157 seconds into the fight, and your DI came up 7 seconds ago. Rinse/repeat. You are an invincible, unstoppable, juggernaut.In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 15% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.Edit: Altered numbers on meditative mending to be correct. Lol.

Bruener

02-24-2012, 04:22 PM

Took you long enough to finally get that written out.Yeah...LOOKS BALANCED.EDIT: BTW that is just comparing to a SK. I believe that Paladins and Zerks would show even less....

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 04:28 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Took you long enough to finally get that written out.Yeah...LOOKS BALANCED.EDIT: BTW that is just comparing to a SK. I believe that Paladins and Zerks would show even less....</blockquote>It's unreal. I'm shocked, horrified, and amazed all at once that people can argue that classes are balanced. Were I to compare a Pally/Zerker I'm sure it would be just as large of a disparity.

Rageincarnate

02-24-2012, 04:39 PM

ty darkonx

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 04:48 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>ty darkonx</blockquote>What I love the most is people using me as an example as to why SK's are balanced. I noticed they did it to you earlier too. Well Rageincarnate tanked EOW HM! I did it too. What they fail to mention is that I had a bruisers avoidance, and I only tanked the two little adds on the bird fight, while the brawler tanked the truly epic one. Even then it took spamming everything I could to stay alive while the two little birds died. What a joke.

LardLord

02-24-2012, 04:52 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)</blockquote>Yup, that's basically it. If you are only using a very small portion of the Brawler toolset (and especially if you aren't even using those well), Brawlers may seem fairly balanced. If you use all the tools at your disposal, especially if you use them well, it's just ridiculous. Remember paladin heals+CB and how that was going to be super overpowered for easier content? It occurs to me that brawler saves+reuse became overpowered in a similar way except for harder content.

Talathion

02-24-2012, 05:11 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 25 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 157 seconds into the fight, and your DI came up 7 seconds ago. Rinse/repeat. You are an invincible, unstoppable, juggernaut.In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.</blockquote>There is no balance, try that with a berserker's POV. Lol.My Puny 1000 pt heal won't stop anything...

Damager

02-24-2012, 05:41 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now. There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up. Can you imagine it? Strange but true.Mobs simply hit way too hard now. Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike. It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations. If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.Aside: I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals. Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well. Etc.In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall. For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable. That cannot be downplayed.I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.</blockquote>THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^...Tallathion and Bruener are more concerened with nobody being able to effectively tank the current content then everybody being able to /sigh.</blockquote>Again you guys seem to have pathetic sight on mechanics and balance. Do you understand at all why the strike through mechanic was introduced? Do you understand how it is being used ineffectively now since 2 Fighters are immune to it?We all understand that strike through immunity was a quick, easy band-aid fix to help Brawlers at the time from being streaky. That time is over and allowing the strike through mechanic to be used correctly would be an advantage to keep fighter avoidance in check (its whole original design). The fact that you are defending having the mechanic used correctly because you are worried you will actually feel what it is like when they are introducing mobs with strike through and how significant of a difference it makes say a lot about how you really feel about balance. Put strike through on an even playing field and if mobs are unbalanced it will be obvious across all Fighters instead of Brawler pushing all progression like in today's game.You all silently acknowledge the difference in strike through that happens every time progression is introduced but none of you want to have to deal with it like the other tanks until they nerf it. That is a bogus out instead of seeing things balanced.</blockquote>Incorrect sir. Strikethrough was introduced to bring down plate tanks avoidance. Strikethrough immune was introduced because strikethrough from the mobs negated the brawlers avaoidance. The "streakiness" of the brawler was fixed with their reactives not strikethrough immunity.</blockquote>That makes no sense. They introduced strike through. It wasn't for a while before they introduced strike through immunity for Brawlers because they were streaky. It was a lot easier to give Brawlers strike through immunity to negate it as a band-aid. Than they addressed Brawler survivability in general and since have made it so that there is absolutely no more of a chance of a "bad roll" causing death.The band aid is unnecessary and just causing problems now with content balancing. Easy recent example is EoW...which once again Brawlers could go tank with a solo healer because their avoidance was such a big factor and they were not getting struck through. Meanwhile to be able to tank it as a Plate tank with a solo healer you NEEDED to have a Brawler in there to give you their avoidance, which at that point why not just use the Brawler? I guarantee that in PoW the adds on the boar have too high of strike through once again.</blockquote>ROFL! Roll a Pally they tank EoW easily with single healer, Rageincarnate does it on his SK, ROFL Watched a guard Tank HM Zek single healer.Raid Nights I watch a Guard Tank HM Sullons up to Sullon no problem.What makes no sense is you think they just introduced strikethrough because it was tuesday and they had nothin better to do ROFL!</blockquote>HM eow? dude. I get whupped hard by incoming damage on the group of 3. I run out of toys, heal parse spikes to 50k hps then i die. We havent tried for awhile... it's annoying >< and it makes me not want to login.</blockquote>No Sir, He just said EOW, no mention of hard mode aparently EM is too much for him. And yes you do tank EM EOW single healer.

Damager

02-24-2012, 05:43 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)</blockquote>Re roll sir, That is a ward not a stoneskin, Outward Calm also ward.Secondly, its if hit for more than 40% of your health its a 15% healThis is your monk expert rofl

Damager

02-24-2012, 05:45 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>ty darkonx</blockquote>What I love the most is people using me as an example as to why SK's are balanced. I noticed they did it to you earlier too. Well Rageincarnate tanked EOW HM! I did it too. What they fail to mention is that I had a bruisers avoidance, and I only tanked the two little adds on the bird fight, while the brawler tanked the truly epic one. Even then it took spamming everything I could to stay alive while the two little birds died. What a joke.</blockquote>Fail read bro, He says EOW not HM EOW which Rage tanks single healer.You guys are way to easy.

Damager

02-24-2012, 05:50 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers Defensive Stance lowers there autoattack damage?</blockquote>Yes.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 06:31 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)</blockquote>Re roll sir, That is a ward not a stoneskin, Outward Calm also ward.Secondly, its if hit for more than 40% of your health its a 15% healThis is your monk expert rofl</blockquote>Superior Guard is a stoneskin. Are you dense? Honestly? <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard</a>Secondly, the AA that heals you IS 15% base. However, it's modifiable. So with decent potency, it's 45%.Don't bother replying, you're obviously clueless.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 06:33 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>ty darkonx</blockquote>What I love the most is people using me as an example as to why SK's are balanced. I noticed they did it to you earlier too. Well Rageincarnate tanked EOW HM! I did it too. What they fail to mention is that I had a bruisers avoidance, and I only tanked the two little adds on the bird fight, while the brawler tanked the truly epic one. Even then it took spamming everything I could to stay alive while the two little birds died. What a joke.</blockquote>Fail read bro, He says EOW not HM EOW which Rage tanks single healer.You guys are way to easy.</blockquote>Who cares about EM EOW? I can solo tank EM EOW on my Assassin. HM EOW with one healer I can do on my monk. I can not do it on my SK. I layed out their abilities and how they play out over the course of a fight. You have only critiqued my posts with incorrect information, of no real import to the situation. Cease and desist.

Bruener

02-24-2012, 06:53 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>No Sir, He just said EOW, no mention of hard mode aparently EM is too much for him. And yes you do tank EM EOW single healer.</blockquote>Really?Why would I even care at all about EM. It is EM. I hardly ever even run group content, and if I do its HM only because for some reason there is something I want.Obviously HM was what was implied. EM....lol.

Bruener

02-24-2012, 06:57 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)</blockquote>Re roll sir, That is a ward not a stoneskin, Outward Calm also ward.Secondly, its if hit for more than 40% of your health its a 15% healThis is your monk expert rofl</blockquote>Superior Guard is a stoneskin. Are you dense? Honestly? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard" target="_blank">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard</a>Secondly, the AA that heals you IS 15% base. However, it's modifiable. So with decent potency, it's 45%.Don't bother replying, you're obviously clueless.</blockquote>Yep, looks like a ward.HA HA.

Damager

02-24-2012, 06:58 PM

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 07:26 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)</blockquote>Re roll sir, That is a ward not a stoneskin, Outward Calm also ward.Secondly, its if hit for more than 40% of your health its a 15% healThis is your monk expert rofl</blockquote>Superior Guard is a stoneskin. Are you dense? Honestly? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard" target="_blank">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard</a>Secondly, the AA that heals you IS 15% base. However, it's modifiable. So with decent potency, it's 45%.Don't bother replying, you're obviously clueless.</blockquote>Reread what you said ITS fail you specifically say "I get hit for more than 15% of my health", This sir is COMPLETELY wrong you can not deny it. Show me a parse where it heals you for 40% of your health lets see 60k HP would be a 24k heal. Not gonna happen. Just admit you where completely backwards see link backwards <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing</a>But according to your example you never get hit for 40% of your health anyway, Also an unkillable juggernaut why do you take a healer into EoW anyway just solo it /shrug lol</blockquote>The % that you get hit for is incorrect, agreed.Regardless. That ability has nothing to do with how OP monks are. You could delete the ability to heal for half their health every time they take severe damage and they'd still be insanely overpowered in comparison. Lol.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 07:36 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared</blockquote>You bring up a good point there! Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either. Perhaps I got a bit carried away.</blockquote>That is the problem you guys get carried away. I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS. But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc. It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read. Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post. Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups. Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 07:37 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 25 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 157 seconds into the fight, and your DI came up 7 seconds ago. Rinse/repeat. You are an invincible, unstoppable, juggernaut.In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.</blockquote>^^^That is why monks are OP.

Damager

02-24-2012, 07:39 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite>Reread what you said ITS fail you specifically say "I get hit for more than 15% of my health", This sir is COMPLETELY wrong you can not deny it. Show me a parse where it heals you for 40% of your health lets see 60k HP would be a 24k heal. Not gonna happen. Just admit you where completely backwards see link backwards <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing</a>But according to your example you never get hit for 40% of your health anyway, Also an unkillable juggernaut why do you take a healer into EoW anyway just solo it /shrug lol </blockquote>The % that you get hit for is incorrect, agreed.Regardless. That ability has nothing to do with how OP monks are. You could delete the ability to heal for half their health every time they take severe damage and they'd still be insanely overpowered in comparison. Lol.</blockquote>Common really the reason I get soooo technical and/or dont take implied comments is because they mislead.How can you sit there and now say it heals for half? Common dude siriously tell them the real percent it heals you for. Open ACT and tell us the heal amount for realZZZZZZ!Once you show them you are wrong on this as well, we can move on into why your whole post isnt feasable in reality also.

Hennyo

02-24-2012, 07:49 PM

Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 07:49 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared</blockquote>You bring up a good point there! Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either. Perhaps I got a bit carried away.</blockquote>That is the problem you guys get carried away. I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS. But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc. It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read. Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post. Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups. Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.</blockquote><a href="http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png</a>My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.Thanks.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 07:51 PM

<cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.</blockquote>Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 07:53 PM

Also the monk reactive heal is not modifiable another myth you guys are full of them. I wish it were but if it were we would just all load up on potency and heal ourselves for 100% every time we get hit.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 07:57 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared</blockquote>You bring up a good point there! Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either. Perhaps I got a bit carried away.</blockquote>That is the problem you guys get carried away. I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS. But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc. It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read. Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post. Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups. Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.</blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png" target="_blank">http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png</a>My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.Thanks.</blockquote>Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible. But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have. Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 08:09 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.</blockquote>Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 08:10 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite>Reread what you said ITS fail you specifically say "I get hit for more than 15% of my health", This sir is COMPLETELY wrong you can not deny it. Show me a parse where it heals you for 40% of your health lets see 60k HP would be a 24k heal. Not gonna happen. Just admit you where completely backwards see link backwards <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing</a>But according to your example you never get hit for 40% of your health anyway, Also an unkillable juggernaut why do you take a healer into EoW anyway just solo it /shrug lol</blockquote>The % that you get hit for is incorrect, agreed.Regardless. That ability has nothing to do with how OP monks are. You could delete the ability to heal for half their health every time they take severe damage and they'd still be insanely overpowered in comparison. Lol.</blockquote>Common really the reason I get soooo technical and/or dont take implied comments is because they mislead.How can you sit there and now say it heals for half? Common dude siriously tell them the real percent it heals you for. Open ACT and tell us the heal amount for realZZZZZZ!Once you show them you are wrong on this as well, we can move on into why your whole post isnt feasable in reality also.</blockquote>Healing for half was based on getting Chosen on Soren. Again, this one ability has no impact on the overall argument. It was added as an afterthought. It's a solid 12k+ heal though, when it does manage to proc.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 08:12 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.</blockquote>Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.</blockquote>It was when I last checked, which I admit was on Toxxulia, which is just after the abilities inception.Why don't you cast your saves more often? Because you need them to be up when you need them. If you can always have one running that will ensure that you don't die, why wouldn't you? The answer is you would. Doing anything else would be asinine.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 08:14 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.</blockquote>Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.</blockquote>It was when I last checked, which I admit was on Toxxulia, which is just after the abilities inception.Why don't you cast your saves more often? Because you need them to be up when you need them. If you can always have one running that will ensure that you don't die, why wouldn't you? The answer is you would. Doing anything else would be asinine.</blockquote>Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about and are now making things up from stuff you supposedly checked years ago.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 08:16 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared</blockquote>You bring up a good point there! Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either. Perhaps I got a bit carried away.</blockquote>That is the problem you guys get carried away. I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS. But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc. It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read. Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post. Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups. Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.</blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png" target="_blank">http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png</a>My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.Thanks.</blockquote>Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible. But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have. Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.</blockquote>Asking for JC once every five minutes is hardly ensuring it's always on. The image above is standing in a group. No ROA. No JC. No reuse temps.Monks are currently broken. Sorry.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 08:17 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.</blockquote>Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.</blockquote>It was when I last checked, which I admit was on Toxxulia, which is just after the abilities inception.Why don't you cast your saves more often? Because you need them to be up when you need them. If you can always have one running that will ensure that you don't die, why wouldn't you? The answer is you would. Doing anything else would be asinine.</blockquote>Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about and are now making things up from stuff you supposedly checked years ago.</blockquote>I posted how you can indefinitely chain saves on a monk. I then posted a screenshot showing proof of the numbers and their values, and how they can work together to make the monk practically invincible. You have yet to disprove ANY of these FACTS.I admit that I was off on the numbers for meditative mending, something I added as an afterthought. The rest of the numbers are screenshotted and posted just above.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 08:18 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared</blockquote>You bring up a good point there! Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either. Perhaps I got a bit carried away.</blockquote>That is the problem you guys get carried away. I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS. But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc. It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read. Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post. Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups. Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.</blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png" target="_blank">http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png</a>My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.Thanks.</blockquote>Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible. But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have. Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.</blockquote>Asking for JC once every five minutes is hardly ensuring it's always on. The image above is standing in a group. No ROA. No JC. No reuse temps.Monks are currently broken. Sorry.</blockquote>So you manage apparently to have maxed your reuse on every save despite only having your reuse maxed twice every 6 minutes for a total of a minute OK grats on your magical scenario that doesnt exist.

Talathion

02-24-2012, 08:20 PM

Monks and Bruisers arn't overpowered!All the other tanks just must be underpowered!

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 08:21 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared</blockquote>You bring up a good point there! Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either. Perhaps I got a bit carried away.</blockquote>That is the problem you guys get carried away. I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS. But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc. It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read. Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post. Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups. Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.</blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png" target="_blank">http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png</a>My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.Thanks.</blockquote>Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible. But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have. Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.</blockquote>Asking for JC once every five minutes is hardly ensuring it's always on. The image above is standing in a group. No ROA. No JC. No reuse temps.Monks are currently broken. Sorry.</blockquote>So you manage apparently to have maxed your reuse on every save despite only having your reuse maxed twice every 6 minutes for a total of a minute OK grats on your magical scenario that doesnt exist.</blockquote>My reuse isn't max'd. Not even close. I'm at 67.8%. Hence why abilities like Provoking Stance have a reuse of like 107 seconds.With 67.8% reuse, you can chain saves INDEFTINITELY. That reuse is with mostly HM armor. I haven't stacked any pieces specifically for reuse, and my monk has inferior gear to my SK or the values would be even more absurd.

Corydonn

02-24-2012, 08:27 PM

Damager

02-24-2012, 08:34 PM

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 08:34 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 25 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 157 seconds into the fight, and your DI came up 7 seconds ago. Rinse/repeat. You are an invincible, unstoppable, juggernaut.In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 15% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.Edit: Altered numbers on meditative mending to be correct. Lol.</blockquote><a href="http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png</a>There's a screenshot showing monk saves, with reuses/durations.My gear isn't all that great. I'm sure other monks have much better reuse.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 08:38 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 25 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 157 seconds into the fight, and your DI came up 7 seconds ago. Rinse/repeat. You are an invincible, unstoppable, juggernaut.In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)</blockquote>I really need to copy this for the brawler forums on another site so I never ever have to repeat this to anyone in game again.I was going to make one for bruisers but I got lazy and never got around to it. Even with a guide on what mobs have what aes for Physical and Magical stoneskin usage. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Lol. Corydonn. I don't get how other people don't understand how completely, ridiculously, insane brawlers are right now.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 08:40 PM

LardLord

02-24-2012, 08:41 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip></blockquote>I really need to copy this for the brawler forums on another site so I never ever have to repeat this to anyone in game again.I was going to make one for bruisers but I got lazy and never got around to it. Even with a guide on what mobs have what aes for Physical and Magical stoneskin usage. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Copy/paste?? Sigh.You need to start a monastery where Brawlers can learn the ways of the unkillable juggernaut.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 08:45 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>I really need to copy this for the brawler forums on another site so I never ever have to repeat this to anyone in game again.I was going to make one for bruisers but I got lazy and never got around to it. Even with a guide on what mobs have what aes for Physical and Magical stoneskin usage. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Copy/paste?? Sigh.You need to start a monastery where Brawlers can learn the ways of the unkillable juggernaut.</blockquote>If he was so unkillable wouldn't you guys you know have cleared everything instead of you know high fiving Equilibrium for unlocking raid zones for you?

LardLord

02-24-2012, 08:51 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If he was so unkillable wouldn't you guys you know have cleared everything instead of you know high fiving Equilibrium for unlocking raid zones for you?</blockquote>Blanka! It's hyperbole! I have conceded this semantics argument with you twice already (and your Damager friend, too!). I am not using the word "unkillable" literally but rather to emphasize how hard it is to kill the juggernaut.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 08:52 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible. But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have. Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.</blockquote></blockquote>Asking for JC once every five minutes is hardly ensuring it's always on. The image above is standing in a group. No ROA. No JC. No reuse temps.Monks are currently broken. Sorry.</blockquote>So you manage apparently to have maxed your reuse on every save despite only having your reuse maxed twice every 6 minutes for a total of a minute OK grats on your magical scenario that doesnt exist.</blockquote>My reuse isn't max'd. Not even close. I'm at 67.8%. Hence why abilities like Provoking Stance have a reuse of like 107 seconds.With 67.8% reuse, you can chain saves INDEFTINITELY. That reuse is with mostly HM armor. I haven't stacked any pieces specifically for reuse, and my monk has inferior gear to my SK or the values would be even more absurd.</blockquote>Sweet so you cleared all the content on your invincible monk months ago and was waiting for equalibrium to catch up woot! that was very nice of you sir. My favorite BTW is you cant die with for 90s because of tenacity. Thats some serious math you got gooin on son.</blockquote>Surely even you aren't so ignorant as to think that your maintank never dying to the mob results in the mob dying! There are things like adds, and curses that have to be dealt with!With Tenacity up, it lasts for 90 seconds, look at the abilities which have under a 90s reuse. You can use all of those DURING Tenacity and it they'll still be back up by the time you want to use them normally! You're a brawler and have been for ages, so either you're ignorant, or pretending to be ignorant in an attempt to invalidate the facts of the matter. Regardless, I'll spell it out for you.Inner Focus - CheckPerfect Guard - THRICE - CheckBob and Weave - CheckTsunami - CheckOutward Calm - CheckStone Cold - TWICE - CheckObviously that's based off casting them all at the start of the 90s, which you wouldn't do.A more realistic order is as follows.Cast Brawlers Tenacity and Tsunami at the same time(Tsunami comes up as Tenacity comes down, so you can recast it then), 20s in, cast Bob and Weave(comes up at 95s into the fight), 33s in, cast Stone Cold(comes up at 85 seconds into the fight). That brings you to 55 seconds into the fight, without having lost a trigger of your Brawlers Tenacity. At this point you should probably stoneskin the next AOE with Superior Guard, just in case your healers go afk and your innate 90%+ avoidance doesn't avoid enough that you lose all 3 triggers in 20 seconds. Lol.Monks. Are. Broken. Thanks.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 08:57 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible. But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have. Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.</blockquote></blockquote>Asking for JC once every five minutes is hardly ensuring it's always on. The image above is standing in a group. No ROA. No JC. No reuse temps.Monks are currently broken. Sorry.</blockquote>So you manage apparently to have maxed your reuse on every save despite only having your reuse maxed twice every 6 minutes for a total of a minute OK grats on your magical scenario that doesnt exist.</blockquote>My reuse isn't max'd. Not even close. I'm at 67.8%. Hence why abilities like Provoking Stance have a reuse of like 107 seconds.With 67.8% reuse, you can chain saves INDEFTINITELY. That reuse is with mostly HM armor. I haven't stacked any pieces specifically for reuse, and my monk has inferior gear to my SK or the values would be even more absurd.</blockquote>Sweet so you cleared all the content on your invincible monk months ago and was waiting for equalibrium to catch up woot! that was very nice of you sir. My favorite BTW is you cant die with for 90s because of tenacity. Thats some serious math you got gooin on son.</blockquote>Surely even you aren't so ignorant as to think that your maintank never dying to the mob results in the mob dying! There are things like adds, and curses that have to be dealt with!With Tenacity up, it lasts for 90 seconds, look at the abilities which have under a 90s reuse. You can use all of those DURING Tenacity and it they'll still be back up by the time you want to use them normally! You're a brawler and have been for ages, so either you're ignorant, or pretending to be ignorant in an attempt to invalidate the facts of the matter. Regardless, I'll spell it out for you.Inner Focus - CheckPerfect Guard - THRICE - CheckBob and Weave - CheckTsunami - CheckOutward Calm - CheckStone Cold - TWICE - CheckObviously that's based off casting them all at the start of the 90s, which you wouldn't do.A more realistic order is as follows.Cast Brawlers Tenacity and Tsunami at the same time(Tsunami comes up as Tenacity comes down, so you can recast it then), 20s in, cast Bob and Weave(comes up at 95s into the fight), 33s in, cast Stone Cold(comes up at 85 seconds into the fight). That brings you to 55 seconds into the fight, without having lost a trigger of your Brawlers Tenacity. At this point you should probably stoneskin the next AOE with Superior Guard, just in case your healers go afk and your innate 90%+ avoidance doesn't avoid enough that you lose all 3 triggers in 20 seconds. Lol.Monks. Are. Broken. Thanks.</blockquote>LOL thats all good till the second round then you can't roll all those things with your tenacity but good job grasping at straws.

Silzin

02-24-2012, 08:59 PM

Darkonx: Let me See if i have this right... you are trying to say that a defensive tank (Monk) is more .. uummm.. DEFENSIVE then a OFFENSIVE tank (SK) and because of that the monk class is over powered?

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 09:01 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If he was so unkillable wouldn't you guys you know have cleared everything instead of you know high fiving Equilibrium for unlocking raid zones for you?</blockquote>Blanka! It's hyperbole! I have conceded this semantics argument with you twice already (and your Damager friend, too!). I am not using the word "unkillable" literally but rather to emphasize how hard it is to kill the juggernaut.</blockquote>It should be hard to kill a tank.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 09:03 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.</blockquote>Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.</blockquote>It was when I last checked, which I admit was on Toxxulia, which is just after the abilities inception.Why don't you cast your saves more often? Because you need them to be up when you need them. If you can always have one running that will ensure that you don't die, why wouldn't you? The answer is you would. Doing anything else would be asinine.</blockquote>Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about and are now making things up from stuff you supposedly checked years ago.</blockquote>I posted how you can indefinitely chain saves on a monk. I then posted a screenshot showing proof of the numbers and their values, and how they can work together to make the monk practically invincible. You have yet to disprove ANY of these FACTS.I admit that I was off on the numbers for meditative mending, something I added as an afterthought. The rest of the numbers are screenshotted and posted just above.</blockquote>Wrong, here are your claimsMeditative Mending is adjusted by potency - 100% wrong You can chain monk saves all day so a monk can never die (Let me rip this one to shreds)- a 3 trigger deathsave lasts all of 3 deaths not the full 1.5 mins of course you know if they don't go off then you never needed to hit it anyways right and your arguement that the deathsaves are OP is moot because they don't even contribute to a monks usefulness.- you also use provoking stance in your fictional scenario yet provoking stance doesn't start its reuse until after it expired so even your 107 seconds is actually 131 seconds. You also claim it would bring you to 157 seconds into your fight but in fact it would only bring you to 146 seconds into the fight. Sorry but I know you are bad at EQ2 but math as well 122+24 = 146 you are welcome for the grade 2 math lesson.- stone cold only has a 20 sec duration so its not even up for the full duration of provo stance- your claim tsunami makes you invincible to melee for 20 seconds is also wrong in fact you can still get hit by melee damage for example a trauma AE it only makes you invincible to auto attack damage.- bob and weave is in fact not even close to a 100% avoid in fact its rare for me to go its full duration without getting hitSo again despite the fact that you can in fact die with any of these so called chained saves up you wish to completely ignore that fact and claim it makes monks invincible, no it makes them tough tanks not invincible.</blockquote>Wait what.A three trigger DI, and you can cast enough stuff during it's duration, whose recasts are below the duration, that you will never die. You shouldn't ever die during that 90s period. If you do, you're doing it wrong.Provoking Stance being at 131 seconds instead of 107 has once again, ZERO impact on the over-all cast order.122+25=147. I know you're bad at math but when correcting me at least use the correct values in the first place?Okay, for 5 seconds you have 15% damage reduction instead of 40%. Cast Inner Focus to stoneskin the two auto attacks during that period if you're worried about it. It's not a factor in terms of survivability. Hell cast Outward Calm too, just in case any magical attacks have you frightened.Did you read what I said about Tsunami/Bob and Weave? Obviously not. Let me retype it.They don't stop AE's, but they DO make you invincible, because they stop auto attacks and thereby preserve all of your wards for AE's. If you have a full group ward, and a full single target ward, you wont be dying to AE's. If you get hit once during Bob and Weave it doesn't matter, because you'll still be preserving your wards for the vast majority, and if for some reason an AE hits RIGHT after that auto attack lands, you have your 30% damage reduction from your passive! Yay!All of a monks tool kit combined to make them an absolutely juggernaut. Bruisers have an extremely similar kit. They're both incredibly overpowered.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 09:04 PM

I think that if having a deathsave that never triggers ever and is always on makes you OP than brawlers are the least OP of all tanks. Discuss...

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 09:06 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.</blockquote>Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.</blockquote>It was when I last checked, which I admit was on Toxxulia, which is just after the abilities inception.Why don't you cast your saves more often? Because you need them to be up when you need them. If you can always have one running that will ensure that you don't die, why wouldn't you? The answer is you would. Doing anything else would be asinine.</blockquote>Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about and are now making things up from stuff you supposedly checked years ago.</blockquote>I posted how you can indefinitely chain saves on a monk. I then posted a screenshot showing proof of the numbers and their values, and how they can work together to make the monk practically invincible. You have yet to disprove ANY of these FACTS.I admit that I was off on the numbers for meditative mending, something I added as an afterthought. The rest of the numbers are screenshotted and posted just above.</blockquote>Wrong, here are your claimsMeditative Mending is adjusted by potency - 100% wrong You can chain monk saves all day so a monk can never die (Let me rip this one to shreds)- a 3 trigger deathsave lasts all of 3 deaths not the full 1.5 mins of course you know if they don't go off then you never needed to hit it anyways right and your arguement that the deathsaves are OP is moot because they don't even contribute to a monks usefulness.- you also use provoking stance in your fictional scenario yet provoking stance doesn't start its reuse until after it expired so even your 107 seconds is actually 131 seconds. You also claim it would bring you to 157 seconds into your fight but in fact it would only bring you to 146 seconds into the fight. Sorry but I know you are bad at EQ2 but math as well 122+24 = 146 you are welcome for the grade 2 math lesson.- stone cold only has a 20 sec duration so its not even up for the full duration of provo stance- your claim tsunami makes you invincible to melee for 20 seconds is also wrong in fact you can still get hit by melee damage for example a trauma AE it only makes you invincible to auto attack damage.- bob and weave is in fact not even close to a 100% avoid in fact its rare for me to go its full duration without getting hitSo again despite the fact that you can in fact die with any of these so called chained saves up you wish to completely ignore that fact and claim it makes monks invincible, no it makes them tough tanks not invincible.</blockquote>Wait what.A three trigger DI, and you can cast enough stuff during it's duration, whose recasts are below the duration, that you will never die. You shouldn't ever die during that 90s period. If you do, you're doing it wrong.Provoking Stance being at 131 seconds instead of 107 has once again, ZERO impact on the over-all cast order.122+25=147. I know you're bad at math but when correcting me at least use the correct values in the first place?Okay, for 5 seconds you have 15% damage reduction instead of 40%. Cast Inner Focus to stoneskin the two auto attacks during that period if you're worried about it. It's not a factor in terms of survivability. Hell cast Outward Calm too, just in case any magical attacks have you frightened.Did you read what I said about Tsunami/Bob and Weave? Obviously not. Let me retype it.They don't stop AE's, but they DO make you invincible, because they stop auto attacks and thereby preserve all of your wards for AE's. If you have a full group ward, and a full single target ward, you wont be dying to AE's. If you get hit once during Bob and Weave it doesn't matter, because you'll still be preserving your wards for the vast majority, and if for some reason an AE hits RIGHT after that auto attack lands, you have your 30% damage reduction from your passive! Yay!All of a monks tool kit combined to make them an absolutely juggernaut. Bruisers have an extremely similar kit. They're both incredibly overpowered.</blockquote>Provoking stance is 24 second duration not 25 you just aren't on my level please stick to the kiddy table. And you can't use those saves the second time through your supposed always never triggering DI only the first time through so keep grasping.EDIT: Also the 30% reduction from MELEE damage is a physical only reduction so unless its a physical AE your point is useless.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 09:13 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Darkonx: Let me See if i have this right... you are trying to say that a defensive tank (Monk) is more .. uummm.. DEFENSIVE then a OFFENSIVE tank (SK) and because of that the monk class is over powered?</blockquote>Monks being able to go immune to death (in all practical scenarios) for the entirety of a fight in comparison to another tank having nothing up defensively for half of the duration of the fight is broken. Yes.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 09:21 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.</blockquote>Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.</blockquote>It was when I last checked, which I admit was on Toxxulia, which is just after the abilities inception.Why don't you cast your saves more often? Because you need them to be up when you need them. If you can always have one running that will ensure that you don't die, why wouldn't you? The answer is you would. Doing anything else would be asinine.</blockquote>Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about and are now making things up from stuff you supposedly checked years ago.</blockquote>I posted how you can indefinitely chain saves on a monk. I then posted a screenshot showing proof of the numbers and their values, and how they can work together to make the monk practically invincible. You have yet to disprove ANY of these FACTS.I admit that I was off on the numbers for meditative mending, something I added as an afterthought. The rest of the numbers are screenshotted and posted just above.</blockquote>Wrong, here are your claimsMeditative Mending is adjusted by potency - 100% wrong You can chain monk saves all day so a monk can never die (Let me rip this one to shreds)- a 3 trigger deathsave lasts all of 3 deaths not the full 1.5 mins of course you know if they don't go off then you never needed to hit it anyways right and your arguement that the deathsaves are OP is moot because they don't even contribute to a monks usefulness.- you also use provoking stance in your fictional scenario yet provoking stance doesn't start its reuse until after it expired so even your 107 seconds is actually 131 seconds. You also claim it would bring you to 157 seconds into your fight but in fact it would only bring you to 146 seconds into the fight. Sorry but I know you are bad at EQ2 but math as well 122+24 = 146 you are welcome for the grade 2 math lesson.- stone cold only has a 20 sec duration so its not even up for the full duration of provo stance- your claim tsunami makes you invincible to melee for 20 seconds is also wrong in fact you can still get hit by melee damage for example a trauma AE it only makes you invincible to auto attack damage.- bob and weave is in fact not even close to a 100% avoid in fact its rare for me to go its full duration without getting hitSo again despite the fact that you can in fact die with any of these so called chained saves up you wish to completely ignore that fact and claim it makes monks invincible, no it makes them tough tanks not invincible.</blockquote>Wait what.A three trigger DI, and you can cast enough stuff during it's duration, whose recasts are below the duration, that you will never die. You shouldn't ever die during that 90s period. If you do, you're doing it wrong.Provoking Stance being at 131 seconds instead of 107 has once again, ZERO impact on the over-all cast order.122+25=147. I know you're bad at math but when correcting me at least use the correct values in the first place?Okay, for 5 seconds you have 15% damage reduction instead of 40%. Cast Inner Focus to stoneskin the two auto attacks during that period if you're worried about it. It's not a factor in terms of survivability. Hell cast Outward Calm too, just in case any magical attacks have you frightened.Did you read what I said about Tsunami/Bob and Weave? Obviously not. Let me retype it.They don't stop AE's, but they DO make you invincible, because they stop auto attacks and thereby preserve all of your wards for AE's. If you have a full group ward, and a full single target ward, you wont be dying to AE's. If you get hit once during Bob and Weave it doesn't matter, because you'll still be preserving your wards for the vast majority, and if for some reason an AE hits RIGHT after that auto attack lands, you have your 30% damage reduction from your passive! Yay!All of a monks tool kit combined to make them an absolutely juggernaut. Bruisers have an extremely similar kit. They're both incredibly overpowered.</blockquote>Provoking stance is 24 second duration not 25 you just aren't on my level please stick to the kiddy table. And you can't use those saves the second time through your supposed always never triggering DI only the first time through so keep grasping.EDIT: Also the 30% reduction from MELEE damage is a physical only reduction so unless its a physical AE your point is useless.</blockquote>Lol ok, fair enough. For some reason I thought it was 25. That second of having slightly less damage reduction doesn't matter though, so once again, your 'point' is non-existant.The truth is Bob and Weave while it's up, gives you so much avoidance, that you will not die during it's duration. If it avoids all attacks but one, there will still be enough wards up that you wont die during it's duration.Obviously the second cast of Brawlers Tenacity isn't going to be quite as clean in terms of what abilities you can use, and still have them up when you'd like them. Obviously some abilities need to be used situationally over the course of a fight.If I cast Brawlers Tenacity and then nothing else, my passive survivability will almost always guarantee that I have all three triggers up at the end of it's duration. If I cast other abilities, even lesser ones like Stone Cold over the course of it's duration, short of my group imploding due to curses/adds, it guarantees that it will last the entire duration.You're obviously trolling if you don't think the direct comparison between up-time on abilities doesn't show just how overpowered a brawler can be.How do you think having 100% uptime on defensive abilities in comparison to 50%, is fair? I've talked to Corydonn and he's telling me clearly you're trolling, because there's no way you can be that idiotic.

Gungo

02-24-2012, 09:27 PM

I didnt think it was a debate that monks are better maintanks then shadowknights. The point is a DEFENSIVE single target focused class should be better. Monks are slightly better maintanks then bruisers. They simply have better single target agro and slightly more saves. Bruisers are slightly better offtanks then monks with slightly better aoe snaps.Shadowknights can use a few tweaks but they are not broken. They can and have tanked all HM content.Honestly shadowknights, bruisers, and zerkers should be compared and be better offtanks, better aoe agro/snaps, and SLIGHTLY better dps.Monks, guards, paladins should be compared to each other and be better maintanks and have better single target snaps and agro.The problem with the above argument i have is certain tanks want the dps of an offensive tank, the aoe agro of an offtank, and all the defensive abilities of a maintank. That is not balanced.I have posted my opinion on what needs to be fixed without these tanks asking for everything and that did include nerfs to brawlers such as removing strikethrough immunity from the defensive stance and placing it on brawlers avoid temps (which is as simple as adding 100% dodge to these abilities) and removing the extra death save trigger from tenacity in the heroic line.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 09:32 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I didnt think it was a debate that monks are better tanks then shadowknights. The point is a DEFENSIVE single target focused class should be better. Monks are slightly better maintanks then bruisers. They simply have better single target agro and slightly more saves. Bruisers are slightly better offtanks then monks with slightly better aoe snaps.Shadowknights can use a few tweaks but they are not broken. They can and have tanked all HM content.Honestly shadowknights, bruisers, and zerkers should be compared and be better offtanks, better aoe agro/snaps, and SLIGHTLY better dps.Monks, guards, paladins should be compared to each other and be better maintanks and have better single target snaps and agro.The problem with the above argument i have is certain tanks want the dps of an offensive tank, the aoe agro of an offtank, and all the defensive abilities of a maintank. That is not balanced.</blockquote>The problem is the amount of disparity between the two. 115% up-time in comparison to what amounts to close to 30%. It's not fair, balanced, or in any way even.

BChizzle

02-24-2012, 09:39 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol ok, fair enough. For some reason I thought it was 25. That second of having slightly less damage reduction doesn't matter though, so once again, your 'point' is non-existant.The truth is Bob and Weave while it's up, gives you so much avoidance, that you will not die during it's duration. If it avoids all attacks but one, there will still be enough wards up that you wont die during it's duration.Obviously the second cast of Brawlers Tenacity isn't going to be quite as clean in terms of what abilities you can use, and still have them up when you'd like them. Obviously some abilities need to be used situationally over the course of a fight.If I cast Brawlers Tenacity and then nothing else, my passive survivability will almost always guarantee that I have all three triggers up at the end of it's duration. If I cast other abilities, even lesser ones like Stone Cold over the course of it's duration, short of my group imploding due to curses/adds, it guarantees that it will last the entire duration.You're obviously trolling if you don't think the direct comparison between up-time on abilities doesn't show just how overpowered a brawler can be.How do you think having 100% uptime on defensive abilities in comparison to 50%, is fair? I've talked to Corydonn and he's telling me clearly you're trolling, because there's no way you can be that idiotic.</blockquote>Cory is just being Cory which is basically a smartalec. I am not trolling but clearly pointing out how completely flawed your argument is based. If our DI stays up for its whole duration then I guess we didn't need it right? Also, you completely underrate stone cold cause its a group dr it is actually really amazing for keeping group wards from getting sucked up and is great on hard hitting aes. My problem with you and some on this board is you are trying to say brawlers are indestructable when clearly they arent they are just very effective at doing their jobs sure on a single target a monk is better than an SK but thats how they are supposed to be. If anything buff other tanks not nerf other people down.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 09:48 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol ok, fair enough. For some reason I thought it was 25. That second of having slightly less damage reduction doesn't matter though, so once again, your 'point' is non-existant.The truth is Bob and Weave while it's up, gives you so much avoidance, that you will not die during it's duration. If it avoids all attacks but one, there will still be enough wards up that you wont die during it's duration.Obviously the second cast of Brawlers Tenacity isn't going to be quite as clean in terms of what abilities you can use, and still have them up when you'd like them. Obviously some abilities need to be used situationally over the course of a fight.If I cast Brawlers Tenacity and then nothing else, my passive survivability will almost always guarantee that I have all three triggers up at the end of it's duration. If I cast other abilities, even lesser ones like Stone Cold over the course of it's duration, short of my group imploding due to curses/adds, it guarantees that it will last the entire duration.You're obviously trolling if you don't think the direct comparison between up-time on abilities doesn't show just how overpowered a brawler can be.How do you think having 100% uptime on defensive abilities in comparison to 50%, is fair? I've talked to Corydonn and he's telling me clearly you're trolling, because there's no way you can be that idiotic.</blockquote>Cory is just being Cory which is basically a smartalec. I am not trolling but clearly pointing out how completely flawed your argument is based. If our DI stays up for its whole duration then I guess we didn't need it right? Also, you completely underrate stone cold cause its a group dr it is actually really amazing for keeping group wards from getting sucked up and is great on hard hitting aes. My problem with you and some on this board is you are trying to say brawlers are indestructable when clearly they arent they are just very effective at doing their jobs sure on a single target a monk is better than an SK but thats how they are supposed to be. If anything buff other tanks not nerf other people down.</blockquote>You very rarely actually need the DI. I agree. I probably lose one trigger, sometimes two, almost almost never three, while casting nothing during it's duration. Brawlers STATIC defensive capabilities are absolutely ridiculous.I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.Brawlers probably don't need Brawlers Tenacity at all. I think they'd still be just perfectly fine as tanks without the ability. I still think they'd be better than SK's defensively in all honesty.

Silzin

02-24-2012, 09:52 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><Snip>I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.<Snip></blockquote>Just changing the recast time of BL to the start of the spell and not the end may fix the problem you have with it?

Talathion

02-24-2012, 09:58 PM

My class was nerfed because it was way overpowered in Solo Content, now most of my defences suck.I don't even use 1/5 of my abilities because they are almost absolutely pointless to cast.List of Current Pointless Abilities/AAs:- Blood Rage. (You hit me for 65940, LUCKILY I HEALED FOR 1000!)- Juggernaut. (hey! I will lose 1000% Mitigation/All my Avoidance/Deal 1% Focus damage to myself every second for 20% Crit Chance!)- Stifled Rage. (a little bit of Def/Parry... WOAH d00d)- Ward of Rage. (lolwut? 200 point ward.)- Dragoon's Cyclone (Lol100%AEautoattackCap)- Executioner's Fury (If you die you get 25% Critical Chance!)- Stance Mastery (Oh yeaaah +0.089% Accuracy In Def Stance!, +0.089 Contested Avoidance in Offensive Stance!)

Gungo

02-24-2012, 10:00 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>My class was nerfed because it was way overpowered in Solo Content, now most of my defences suck.I don't even use 1/3 of my abilities because they are almost absolutely pointless to cast.List of Current Pointless Abilities/AAs:- Blood Rage. (You hit me for 65940, LUCKILY I HEALED FOR 1000!)- Juggernaut. (hey! I will lose 1000% Mitigation/All my Avoidance/Deal 1% Focus damage to myself every second for 20% Crit Chance!)- Stifled Rage. (Def/Parry! HELLZ YEAH!)- Ward of Rage. (lolwut? 200 point ward.)- Adrenaline. (Changing it from damage reduction to healing half the damage killed the ability.)</blockquote>Actually adrenaline was nerfed because of raid content whining. Heal crits were nerfed because of soloing/pvpEveryone agrees zerkers are the tank in the worst position for raid tanking.

Talathion

02-24-2012, 10:02 PM

My Entire Class was nerfed down to suck because of Solo/PvP whiners.Oh yeah, those abilities are also not effected by Potency either, thanks to PvP.Honestly, They should change Juggernaut to remove all avoidance/-2000 Mitigation for everything and give the berserker flurry instead of critical chance.

Gungo

02-24-2012, 10:04 PM

Talathion

02-24-2012, 10:08 PM

I honestly love Brueners "Blood Warding" idea, where the lifetaps would ward the Shadowknight if he had 100% Health.I also wish Shadowknight's Lifetaps were a bit more powerful, and percent based.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 10:10 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.</blockquote>Just changing the recast time of BL to the start of the spell and not the end may fix the problem you have with it?</blockquote>It being recastable at the start rather than at the end would make no difference, as I can't recast it in combat. It's literally a non-combat only ability. Similar to call of the tinkerer in that regard, to give you an exact comparison.All tanks should be buffed to the level that Brawlers have been, to tank the content that we are currently fighting.Shadowknights need in combat Bloodletter, and Legionnaire's Conviction should be modifiable. (Like it was in SF)Lifetaps(Devour Vitae and Tap Veins) should also crit. (Like they did in SF)Once those changes are in, I'll re-evaluate balance.

Gungo

02-24-2012, 10:21 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.</blockquote>Just changing the recast time of BL to the start of the spell and not the end may fix the problem you have with it?</blockquote>It being recastable at the start rather than at the end would make no difference, as I can't recast it in combat. It's literally a non-combat only ability. Similar to call of the tinkerer in that regard, to give you an exact comparison.All tanks should be buffed to the level that Brawlers have been, to tank the content that we are currently fighting.Shadowknights need in combat Bloodletter, and Legionnaire's Conviction should be modifiable. (Like it was in SF)Lifetaps(Devour Vitae and Tap Veins) should also crit. (Like they did in SF)Once those changes are in, I'll re-evaluate balance.</blockquote>You do realize I agree with you on those changes and think those are balanced with bruisers as i stated before. I dont agree with the changes bruener asks for which were ridiculous. I also think strikethrough immunity should be removed and placed on avoid buffs only. And as i stated before these are the comparison for bruiser-shadowknight saves. Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hateUnyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time NO phy damage over 60% of your health. Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast(currently nonmod) 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse(currently nonmod), UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longerIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE ward 60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot) (Will stop at least one 1 shots)??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 10:27 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.</blockquote>Just changing the recast time of BL to the start of the spell and not the end may fix the problem you have with it?</blockquote>It being recastable at the start rather than at the end would make no difference, as I can't recast it in combat. It's literally a non-combat only ability. Similar to call of the tinkerer in that regard, to give you an exact comparison.All tanks should be buffed to the level that Brawlers have been, to tank the content that we are currently fighting.Shadowknights need in combat Bloodletter, and Legionnaire's Conviction should be modifiable. (Like it was in SF)Lifetaps(Devour Vitae and Tap Veins) should also crit. (Like they did in SF)Once those changes are in, I'll re-evaluate balance.</blockquote>You do realize I agree with you on those changes and think those are balanced with bruisers as i stated before. I dont agree with the changes bruener asks for which were ridiculous. I also think strikethrough immunity should be removed and placed on avoid buffs only. And as i stated before these are the comparison for bruiser-shadowknight saves.Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hateUnyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time NO phy damage over 60% of your health. Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast(currently nonmod) 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse(currently nonmod), UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longerIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE ward 60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot) (Will stop at least one 1 shots)??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue</blockquote>You wrote this down before. There are massive problems with it. You can't just assume 100% reuse. That's a fallacy of logic. I wrote down realistic numbers between the two characters in similar gear; the SK actually had an advantage in terms of gear. There is also the fact that currently BL can't be used in combat. Until thats changed, comparing them is quite impossible.

Darkonx

02-24-2012, 10:28 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 24 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 146 seconds into the fight, and your DI comes up in three seconds. Rinse/repeat. You are an unstoppable juggernaut.In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 15% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.Edit: Altered numbers on meditative mending to be correct. Lol.</blockquote>Quoted yet again, for the more accurate comparison.

Bruener

02-24-2012, 10:51 PM

Wow missed a lot.I see Blanka has blessed the forums with his presence and trolling once again. Typical at nit-picking the fine details that is totally useless for trying to argue the blatently obvious disparities that are brought up. Good try once again trying to deflect from the obvious.Cory its about time you pipe in.Dark nice write up.Gungo seriously you just basically repeated a lot of what I did. Remove strike through immunity (ok yeah put them on avoidance saves makes sense like we discussed early DoV). Make BL castable in-combat....yeah, only been saying that since DoV beta. There are a couple other things I have pointed out that are abilities that SKs need relooking at for obvious reasons....like the Mythical buff for example which is by far the weakest buff of all Fighters and arguably the weakest one of all classes. Lifetaps being meaningless outside of solo game play being another area that needs to be addressed since so much of the class - abilities/AAs - are focused around these and they are worthless? Manawall being such a worthless ability due to all the power intensive fights in the game.Quabi luv the unkillable jug comment simpley because the Brawlers get all defensive about it.Gungo you can spec a Monk to be the most effective AE tank as well simply because they CAN hold agro on AE content against raids and their abilities work just as well against AE content since unlike a Guard most of the stuff is flat duration avoidance boosts or damage reduction.As for the lines of AE v ST those blurred a ton way too long ago. You have supposedly ST tanks with AE target locks and snap abilities that can snap AE mobs. You have every Fighter that can reach high levels of AE auto attack. You have siphons from AE classes to hold AE mobs on people. You have ST-type tank abilities that work great on AE mobs. I mean really an optimum raid in todays game if you really wanted to have the best set up Fighter-wise would probably 2 Brawlers and 1 Guard.....throw in another Brawler for any Fight that might benefit a 4th Fighter.

Damager

02-24-2012, 11:21 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 24 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 146 seconds into the fight, and your DI comes up in three seconds. Rinse/repeat. You are an unstoppable juggernaut.In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 15% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.Edit: Altered numbers on meditative mending to be correct. Lol.</blockquote>Quoted yet again, for the more accurate comparison.</blockquote>I love this ROFLYou should say quoted again after editing from not knowing several of the mechanics/abilities/abilities mechanics.What is it really dude like 5 abilities so far you had messed up in some way shape form from the original? And you still think people are taking you seriously? Funny, Total denial, But funny. This is why Devs dont read this stuff /shrug The cant die for 90s needs edited btw, and the beginning where you say dont cast nothing till 90s is up and then hit tsunami after the death prevent comes down needs edited btw.

Darkonx

02-25-2012, 12:07 AM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 24 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 146 seconds into the fight, and your DI comes up in three seconds. Rinse/repeat. You are an unstoppable juggernaut.In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 15% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.Edit: Altered numbers on meditative mending to be correct. Lol.</blockquote>Quoted yet again, for the more accurate comparison.</blockquote>I love this ROFLYou should say quoted again after editing from not knowing several of the mechanics/abilities/abilities mechanics.What is it really dude like 5 abilities so far you had messed up in some way shape form from the original? And you still think people are taking you seriously? Funny, Total denial, But funny. This is why Devs dont read this stuff /shrug The cant die for 90s needs edited btw, and the beginning where you say dont cast nothing till 90s is up and then hit tsunami after the death prevent comes down needs edited btw.</blockquote>Hardly. I labeled one ability as 25s instead of 24s. Meditative mending isn't altered by potency. Cool.You don't have to cast anything while your DI is up. Dying every 30 seconds means you're dying more than once per AE set, which isn't going to happen if your healers are pressing buttons.You don't spec for 3 triggers of your DI, and you think Superior Guard is a ward. Your input means less than nothing to anyone who plays this game at a remotely high level.

Gungo

02-25-2012, 12:39 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.</blockquote>Just changing the recast time of BL to the start of the spell and not the end may fix the problem you have with it?</blockquote>It being recastable at the start rather than at the end would make no difference, as I can't recast it in combat. It's literally a non-combat only ability. Similar to call of the tinkerer in that regard, to give you an exact comparison.All tanks should be buffed to the level that Brawlers have been, to tank the content that we are currently fighting.Shadowknights need in combat Bloodletter, and Legionnaire's Conviction should be modifiable. (Like it was in SF)Lifetaps(Devour Vitae and Tap Veins) should also crit. (Like they did in SF)Once those changes are in, I'll re-evaluate balance.</blockquote>You do realize I agree with you on those changes and think those are balanced with bruisers as i stated before. I dont agree with the changes bruener asks for which were ridiculous. I also think strikethrough immunity should be removed and placed on avoid buffs only. And as i stated before these are the comparison for bruiser-shadowknight saves.Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hateUnyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time NO phy damage over 60% of your health. Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast(currently nonmod) 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse(currently noncombat), UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longerIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE ward 60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot) (Will stop at least one 1 shots)??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue</blockquote>You wrote this down before. There are massive problems with it. You can't just assume 100% reuse. That's a fallacy of logic. I wrote down realistic numbers between the two characters in similar gear; the SK actually had an advantage in terms of gear. There is also the fact that currently BL can't be used in combat. Until thats changed, comparing them is quite impossible.</blockquote>NOTHING to assume the shadowknight CAN have 100% reuse. You can have MORE reuse then a brawler in SIMILAR GEAR. Your AA's give you MORE. The numbers you wrote are complete BS. You gave the brawlers 100% reuse on everything stating they could ask for jesters or use titanir and gave your shadowknight unbuffed and no reuse adorns numbers. Talk about being completely biased. The numbers i quotes is wearing the same gear I wear when i tank and the same gear you could wear if you wanted too.I have 98.9% reuse in raids by default without chi or the AGI AA. If you paid attention to what i wear when i tank this is what i have. And as a shadowknight since you claim divine aura is useless i am sure you can use the reuse AA Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse or if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group. So once again your number are wrong and you are either lying or you obviously dont know what you are talking about.Neck 8.4wrist 8.4wrist 8.4cloak 8.4waist 7.2charm 7.5Adornments 14Heroic AA 10Adornment proc 12%That is jsut from gear. Bards(5%) and inqusitors(9.6%) give more which is why I am at 98.9% reuse. Once again the Above comparsion is 100% valid numbers and reuse if played correctly. You could even remove the belt and charm I wear and still have MORE reuse then what i have if you geared correctly OR using your OWN suggestion ask for a jester's.

Talathion

02-25-2012, 12:57 AM

NB4: I don't have reuse because I take mitigation increase instead!

Darkonx

02-25-2012, 12:59 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.</blockquote>Just changing the recast time of BL to the start of the spell and not the end may fix the problem you have with it?</blockquote>It being recastable at the start rather than at the end would make no difference, as I can't recast it in combat. It's literally a non-combat only ability. Similar to call of the tinkerer in that regard, to give you an exact comparison.All tanks should be buffed to the level that Brawlers have been, to tank the content that we are currently fighting.Shadowknights need in combat Bloodletter, and Legionnaire's Conviction should be modifiable. (Like it was in SF)Lifetaps(Devour Vitae and Tap Veins) should also crit. (Like they did in SF)Once those changes are in, I'll re-evaluate balance.</blockquote>You do realize I agree with you on those changes and think those are balanced with bruisers as i stated before. I dont agree with the changes bruener asks for which were ridiculous. I also think strikethrough immunity should be removed and placed on avoid buffs only. And as i stated before these are the comparison for bruiser-shadowknight saves.Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hateUnyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time NO phy damage over 60% of your health. Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast(currently nonmod) 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse(currently nonmod), UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longerIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE ward 60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot) (Will stop at least one 1 shots)??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue</blockquote>You wrote this down before. There are massive problems with it. You can't just assume 100% reuse. That's a fallacy of logic. I wrote down realistic numbers between the two characters in similar gear; the SK actually had an advantage in terms of gear. There is also the fact that currently BL can't be used in combat. Until thats changed, comparing them is quite impossible.</blockquote>NOTHING to assume the shadowknight CAN have 100% reuse. You can have MORE reuse then a brawler in SIMILAR GEAR. Your AA's give you MORE.I have 98.9% reuse in raids by default without chi or the AGI AA. If you paid attention to what i wear when i tank this is what i have. And as a shadowknight since you claim divine aura is useless i am sure you can use the reuse AA Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse or if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group. So once again your number are wrong and you are either lying or you obviously dont know what you are talking about.Neck 8.4wrist 8.4wrist 8.4cloak 8.4waist 7.2charm 7.5Adornments 14Heroic AA 10Adornment proc 12%That is jsut from gear. Bards(5%) and inqusitors(9.6%) give more which is why I am at 98.9% reuse.</blockquote>Neck 8.4wrist 8.4wrist 8.4cloak 8.4waist 7.2 - Heroic belt. Can't be worn in difficult zones due to crit chance requirements. No red slot.charm 7.5 - Heroic charm. Can't be worn in difficult zones due to crit chance requirements. Also means you lose a red slot.Adornments 14 - If you adorn reuse over block sure. For some classes it's not as easy to cap block. We don't get 30% on both primary and secondary, so block is still valuable. Not viable.Heroic AA 10 Adornment proc 12% - Proc, hardly reliable.That's 42% reuse that we can't get. So I have 68%. Once again, you can't assume 100% reuse. Bards don't give reuse btw.You can not possibly do calculations with imagined reuse. I did the calculations with the reuse that both characters have, currently. They are both at exactly 68%.With both of them at 68% reuse my numbers are correct. It's not like one character has 95% reuse and one has 50%. They have the same values.->Why not to gear to 100% reuse as an SKIf gearing to 100% reuse would give you 100% uptime on damage prevention abilities then it would be worth it. Since you can't do that, the loss of block, hp, crit chance, and other stats isn't worth it, since 40% of the time you'll still get crushed with nothing available, and even lowered static defensive stats.EDIT: Just as a note, of course I use the adornment and have it adorned on one of my two slots. You're still at something close to 50% uptime in comparison to 110%(You always have something up, and most of the time have multiple things up).

BChizzle

02-25-2012, 01:32 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow missed a lot.I see Blanka has blessed the forums with his presence and trolling once again. Typical at nit-picking the fine details that is totally useless for trying to argue the blatently obvious disparities that are brought up. Good try once again trying to deflect from the obvious.Cory its about time you pipe in.Dark nice write up.Gungo seriously you just basically repeated a lot of what I did. Remove strike through immunity (ok yeah put them on avoidance saves makes sense like we discussed early DoV). Make BL castable in-combat....yeah, only been saying that since DoV beta. There are a couple other things I have pointed out that are abilities that SKs need relooking at for obvious reasons....like the Mythical buff for example which is by far the weakest buff of all Fighters and arguably the weakest one of all classes. Lifetaps being meaningless outside of solo game play being another area that needs to be addressed since so much of the class - abilities/AAs - are focused around these and they are worthless? Manawall being such a worthless ability due to all the power intensive fights in the game.Quabi luv the unkillable jug comment simpley because the Brawlers get all defensive about it.Gungo you can spec a Monk to be the most effective AE tank as well simply because they CAN hold agro on AE content against raids and their abilities work just as well against AE content since unlike a Guard most of the stuff is flat duration avoidance boosts or damage reduction.As for the lines of AE v ST those blurred a ton way too long ago. You have supposedly ST tanks with AE target locks and snap abilities that can snap AE mobs. You have every Fighter that can reach high levels of AE auto attack. You have siphons from AE classes to hold AE mobs on people. You have ST-type tank abilities that work great on AE mobs. I mean really an optimum raid in todays game if you really wanted to have the best set up Fighter-wise would probably 2 Brawlers and 1 Guard.....throw in another Brawler for any Fight that might benefit a 4th Fighter.</blockquote>There is no trolling and nit picking I just completely destroyed the guys argument without really trying I have also had your boy Quabi admit he is just being over the top calling brawlers unkillable, but wait now you are here saying monks are also the most effective ae tanks please tell me how that is possible since even if you spec for mantis so can a bruiser and they still have wild beating. You sir are an AE tank its not blurred but hey you also are a great what did you call it again temporary emergency tank, youve builts a great niche for your class over the years with all your useless suggestions for your class.

Darkonx

02-25-2012, 01:36 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow missed a lot.I see Blanka has blessed the forums with his presence and trolling once again. Typical at nit-picking the fine details that is totally useless for trying to argue the blatently obvious disparities that are brought up. Good try once again trying to deflect from the obvious.Cory its about time you pipe in.Dark nice write up.Gungo seriously you just basically repeated a lot of what I did. Remove strike through immunity (ok yeah put them on avoidance saves makes sense like we discussed early DoV). Make BL castable in-combat....yeah, only been saying that since DoV beta. There are a couple other things I have pointed out that are abilities that SKs need relooking at for obvious reasons....like the Mythical buff for example which is by far the weakest buff of all Fighters and arguably the weakest one of all classes. Lifetaps being meaningless outside of solo game play being another area that needs to be addressed since so much of the class - abilities/AAs - are focused around these and they are worthless? Manawall being such a worthless ability due to all the power intensive fights in the game.Quabi luv the unkillable jug comment simpley because the Brawlers get all defensive about it.Gungo you can spec a Monk to be the most effective AE tank as well simply because they CAN hold agro on AE content against raids and their abilities work just as well against AE content since unlike a Guard most of the stuff is flat duration avoidance boosts or damage reduction.As for the lines of AE v ST those blurred a ton way too long ago. You have supposedly ST tanks with AE target locks and snap abilities that can snap AE mobs. You have every Fighter that can reach high levels of AE auto attack. You have siphons from AE classes to hold AE mobs on people. You have ST-type tank abilities that work great on AE mobs. I mean really an optimum raid in todays game if you really wanted to have the best set up Fighter-wise would probably 2 Brawlers and 1 Guard.....throw in another Brawler for any Fight that might benefit a 4th Fighter.</blockquote>There is no trolling and nit picking I just completely destroyed the guys argument without really trying I have also had your boy Quabi admit he is just being over the top calling brawlers unkillable, but wait now you are here saying monks are also the most effective ae tanks please tell me how that is possible since even if you spec for mantis so can a bruiser and they still have wild beating. You sir are an AE tank its not blurred but hey you also are a great what did you call it again temporary emergency tank, youve builts a great niche for your class over the years with all your useless suggestions for your class.</blockquote>How did you 'destroy' my argument that a monk can always have a damage prevention ability of great enough potency to avoid death, indefinitely? Quite simply, you didn't. Having played both classes I'm infinitely more experienced than you are in the differences between them. Right now Shadowknights need a massive boost to even be comparable.

Gungo

02-25-2012, 01:41 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Neck 8.4wrist 8.4wrist 8.4cloak 8.4waist 7.2 - Heroic belt. Can't be worn in difficult zones due to crit chance requirements. No red slot.charm 7.5 - Heroic charm. Can't be worn in difficult zones due to crit chance requirements. Also means you lose a red slot.Adornments 14 - If you adorn reuse over block sure. For some classes it's not as easy to cap block. We don't get 30% on both primary and secondary, so block is still valuable. Not viable.Heroic AA 10 Adornment proc 12% - Proc, hardly reliable.That's 42% reuse that we can't get. So I have 68%. Once again, you can't assume 100% reuse. Bards don't give reuse btw.You can not possibly do calculations with imagined reuse. I did the calculations with the reuse that both characters have, currently. They are both at exactly 68%.With both of them at 68% reuse my numbers are correct. It's not like one character has 95% reuse and one has 50%. They have the same values.->Why not to gear to 100% reuse as an SKIf gearing to 100% reuse would give you 100% uptime on damage prevention abilities then it would be worth it. Since you can't do that, the loss of block, hp, crit chance, and other stats isn't worth it, since 40% of the time you'll still get crushed with nothing available, and even lowered static defensive stats.EDIT: Just as a note, of course I use the adornment and have it adorned on one of my two slots. You're still at something close to 50% uptime in comparison to 110%(You always have something up, and most of the time have multiple things up).</blockquote>This is the part were we point out you dont know what you are talking about. The charm has almost DOUBLE the crit chance of any Drunder HM charm. You flat out dont know what you are saying. Most red adorns are also complete crap. The procs on these items are just as good as most red adorns. The belt has 20% less crit chance then the Drunder HM belt but it has a proc better then almost any red adorn, 12% group crit bonus with a modifiable proc rate and 15 sec duration. Its almost always up. The 12% reuse proc is also almost always up. You actually use it. Troubs give reuse btw. Which is the group I am generally tanking in. And cheshyre/reesie almost always has fanatacism up which is another 9.6% reuse. You also are trying to LIE again by making up the basic math i litterally just gave you. 8.4x4+10=43.6 not 42.Furthermore taking block chance over reuse is dumb. First considering you are taking 1.5%/2% block chance adorns over 3-4% reuse. Also considering as a crusaders you get MORE block chance then brawlers from AA. Furthermore you no longer need to waste AA's on individual reuse reduction abilities and instead of putting points into those you free up more AA into something else. 5% block chance for at least 3 of those adornments you wear is not worth the loss of 10% reuse. Having your saves up because you just significantly reduced the recast on EVERY ability you have makes you infinitetly more survivable then the 5-10% block chance you are arguing about. Your whole crit chance argument is also crap as well I am over the crit chance cap for drunder using the gear I mentioned, including the named that debuff crit.Furthermore YOU AS A SHADOWKNIGHT have 15% reuse from AA. Which gives you MORE then the numbers i listed. Even if you removed the belt and charm you would still have more reuse. Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse and if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group. Once again 100% reuse for a shadowknight is obtainable with basic elementary understanding of this game. Everything I listed above is from non brawler specific gear I wear when i tank in raids. How you even try to argue it doesnt work and cant be worn in difficult HM drunder content is assanine. It is being worn. You are litterally making up stuff and making completely unfactual comments.Edit: I just put up a COMPLETE side by side comparsion. The recasts for bruisers and shadowknights are NEARLY identical. And you are trying to claim that bruisers have stuff up 2x as often is complete BS. You had it right in the first place Bloodletter recastable in combat and legionaires modifiable. There is no need for you to go all bruener on the thread.Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hateUnyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time NO phy damage over 60% of your health. Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast(currently nonmod) 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse(currently noncombat), UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longerIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE ward 60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot) (Will stop at least one 1 shots)??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue

BChizzle

02-25-2012, 01:42 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow missed a lot.I see Blanka has blessed the forums with his presence and trolling once again. Typical at nit-picking the fine details that is totally useless for trying to argue the blatently obvious disparities that are brought up. Good try once again trying to deflect from the obvious.Cory its about time you pipe in.Dark nice write up.Gungo seriously you just basically repeated a lot of what I did. Remove strike through immunity (ok yeah put them on avoidance saves makes sense like we discussed early DoV). Make BL castable in-combat....yeah, only been saying that since DoV beta. There are a couple other things I have pointed out that are abilities that SKs need relooking at for obvious reasons....like the Mythical buff for example which is by far the weakest buff of all Fighters and arguably the weakest one of all classes. Lifetaps being meaningless outside of solo game play being another area that needs to be addressed since so much of the class - abilities/AAs - are focused around these and they are worthless? Manawall being such a worthless ability due to all the power intensive fights in the game.Quabi luv the unkillable jug comment simpley because the Brawlers get all defensive about it.Gungo you can spec a Monk to be the most effective AE tank as well simply because they CAN hold agro on AE content against raids and their abilities work just as well against AE content since unlike a Guard most of the stuff is flat duration avoidance boosts or damage reduction.As for the lines of AE v ST those blurred a ton way too long ago. You have supposedly ST tanks with AE target locks and snap abilities that can snap AE mobs. You have every Fighter that can reach high levels of AE auto attack. You have siphons from AE classes to hold AE mobs on people. You have ST-type tank abilities that work great on AE mobs. I mean really an optimum raid in todays game if you really wanted to have the best set up Fighter-wise would probably 2 Brawlers and 1 Guard.....throw in another Brawler for any Fight that might benefit a 4th Fighter.</blockquote>There is no trolling and nit picking I just completely destroyed the guys argument without really trying I have also had your boy Quabi admit he is just being over the top calling brawlers unkillable, but wait now you are here saying monks are also the most effective ae tanks please tell me how that is possible since even if you spec for mantis so can a bruiser and they still have wild beating. You sir are an AE tank its not blurred but hey you also are a great what did you call it again temporary emergency tank, youve builts a great niche for your class over the years with all your useless suggestions for your class.</blockquote>How did you 'destroy' my argument that a monk can always have a damage prevention ability of great enough potency to avoid death, indefinitely? Quite simply, you didn't. Having played both classes I'm infinitely more experienced than you are in the differences between them. Right now Shadowknights need a massive boost to even be comparable.</blockquote>Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener. The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual. Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.

Damager

02-25-2012, 02:47 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>I love this ROFLYou should say quoted again after editing from not knowing several of the mechanics/abilities/abilities mechanics.What is it really dude like 5 abilities so far you had messed up in some way shape form from the original? And you still think people are taking you seriously? Funny, Total denial, But funny. This is why Devs dont read this stuff /shrug The cant die for 90s needs edited btw, and the beginning where you say dont cast nothing till 90s is up and then hit tsunami after the death prevent comes down needs edited btw.</blockquote>Hardly. I labeled one ability as 25s instead of 24s. Meditative mending isn't altered by potency. Cool.You don't have to cast anything while your DI is up. Dying every 30 seconds means you're dying more than once per AE set, which isn't going to happen if your healers are pressing buttons.You don't spec for 3 triggers of your DI, and you think Superior Guard is a ward. Your input means less than nothing to anyone who plays this game at a remotely high level.</blockquote>Really? You spent a whole page trying to tell people how OP mending is, had people so convinced they where crunching numbers trying to get 40%, throwing in a single mob fight to get another 200 potency while Im laughing telling you to look at ACT, It isnt modifiable yet your ranting on and on how you know, blah blah can stack it with this and that roflI find it almost impossible that you have MTd with a brawler in HM raid before.1 death per AE set? with nothing up but DI? heh Come on man Have you ever MTd a HM mob on your monk seriously? I know you said in the other thread you tanked everything which makes me really surprised your the MT for #1 WW progression raid on your monk.

Talathion

02-25-2012, 04:35 AM

Your forgetting that yeah, the stuff is kind of comparable, but BRAWLERs have Strikethrough Immunity, making it completely uncontested.

Novusod

02-25-2012, 11:02 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your forgetting that yeah, the stuff is kind of comparable, but BRAWLERs have Strikethrough Immunity, making it completely uncontested.</blockquote>OMG An avoidance tank avoided a few hits who would have thought of that one before.Zerkers got nerfed because of solo players and PvPSKs got nerfed because of Free 2 PlayIf brawlers get nerfed it would be because of a few forum trolls rather than a concrete in game reason.

Bruener

02-25-2012, 11:05 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener. The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual. Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.</blockquote>By your own claims you tanked everything in TSO on your Monk as well. It was obviously balanced back than and needs to revert back to that type of balance.Really Blanka. The only arguments you ever come up with are trying to disclaim the super fine details on others arguments in attempts to deflect from the issue. You played a super OP'd class. I told you this back in DoV. People saw it come in SF. And you still claim differently. Maybe you are just that terrible that you can't even recognize how OP'd your class has to be in order for you to be decent at this game.What is the "core" of things to you? Making BL castable in combat, removing strike through immunity so they could balance it, fixing Lifetaps to be effective in end-game raiding, fixing the next to useless abilities like the Mythical buff and Manawall to you seems useless? I mean really why are people like you and Gungo so afraid of them actually closing the gap to balance things? Worried about being out of a job?

Bruener

02-25-2012, 11:13 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your forgetting that yeah, the stuff is kind of comparable, but BRAWLERs have Strikethrough Immunity, making it completely uncontested.</blockquote>OMG An avoidance tank avoided a few hits who would have thought of that one before.Zerkers got nerfed because of solo players and PvPSKs got nerfed because of Free 2 PlayIf brawlers get nerfed it would be because of a few forum trolls rather than a concrete in game reason.</blockquote>This guy is just killing me with his arguments. F2P causes certain Fighters to be underpowered.....so that is balanced? People like you should not even be able to post because your arguments are so out of this realm its quite ridiculous.If Brawlers get nerfed its because it has been long, long over due. You guys have enjoyed your "reign" longer than any other supposed OP'd Fighter class and the status of how OP'd you are compared to other Fighters is a lot larger than what others supposedly enjoyed in the past.Do you know why SKs seemed OP'd in TSO? Their offensive capability. They were still probably the 3rd-4th most survivable fighter its just that in that xpac that extra survivability was unneeded. People went with the Fighter that was the most offensive than. Do you know how this differs from Brawlers? Brawlers not only push for being extremely offensive but they are also leap years ahead in survivability (a lot like the RoK Mythical Guard). They have both in a game that has made Fighter DPS a non-factor along with making every Fighter able to hold agro off of a raid easily with the right set up. They have made it all about that survivability and moving into PoW that hasn't changed at all.Until we see some major mechanic changes that make that large survivability advantage less meaningful (like when they nerf mobs down a ton and people killing at that time don't notice the difference) Brawlers will continue to be extremely OP'd compared to others and deserving of nerfs.

Damager

02-25-2012, 03:06 PM

Talathion

02-25-2012, 03:52 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener. The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual. Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.</blockquote>Really Blanka. The only arguments you ever come up with are trying to disclaim the super fine details on others arguments in attempts to deflect from the issue. </blockquote>I wouldnt say undisputably proving someone is completely wrong on how an ability works fine details (Especialy someone saying they heal 40-50%). How many times did we get the "I KNOW" because this "I KNOW" because of that, he even gave fake examples of what to do, REALLY? Obviously he has never done it because it doesnt work. And still wants people to take his word on his math / timing knowledge of other abilities blah blah. That sir is destroying someones credibility. I mean just read that write up, everyone that has ever MTd a HM mob is laughing. Sure you can on paper make it look like brawlers are unstoppable but go do it and reality hits you in the face. I can give examples all day why that wouldnt work but at the rate of what a full page of arguing over just mending /sigh something comon knowledge to even me the noob monk rofl it would take a month to rip it down to the point he understands reality.Anyone that has ever MTd with a brawler on HM or even alot of EM has been hit through all 3 death prevents in seconds, been one shotted, has been stunned, stifled, p0wer drained , cursed, knocked around, killed by red text blah blah blah and yet you want us to believe you are magically immune to everything and can time all the abilities to perfection and never die. /sigh </blockquote>Yeah, i'm sure anyone can stand infront of red text and die like an idiot, but we are talking about tank balance, i'm sure your brawler can stand there like a boss and stand in red text dieing over and over, but you know? Other tanks can't even do that.

Gungo

02-25-2012, 04:22 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener. The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual. Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.</blockquote>By your own claims you tanked everything in TSO on your Monk as well. It was obviously balanced back than and needs to revert back to that type of balance.Really Blanka. The only arguments you ever come up with are trying to disclaim the super fine details on others arguments in attempts to deflect from the issue. You played a super OP'd class. I told you this back in DoV. People saw it come in SF. And you still claim differently. Maybe you are just that terrible that you can't even recognize how OP'd your class has to be in order for you to be decent at this game.What is the "core" of things to you? Making BL castable in combat, removing strike through immunity so they could balance it, fixing Lifetaps to be effective in end-game raiding, fixing the next to useless abilities like the Mythical buff and Manawall to you seems useless? I mean really why are people like you and Gungo so afraid of them actually closing the gap to balance things? Worried about being out of a job?</blockquote>I have NEVER advocated not balancing classes but unlike you I dont request assasnine unbalanced suggestions like giving shadowknights t1 dps, or making all heals crit and be effected by potency. When we already know it was nerfed because it was COMNPLETELY broken for solo and pvp. In fact They still need to make sure NO % based heals are effected by potency because they are and that is broken. The problem with you bruener is you have always asked for EVERYTHING every other tank has and want a completely OP class. You complain about your dps and then cry that guards who are the worst dps fighter tank better then you. You cry brawlers benefit more from block chance even though your class naturally benefits more from mit %, You cry if any tank does anything better then you. You litterally ask for everything. You suck enough at your class that you come on this board exclaiming shadowknights cant tank stuff and then find out shadowknights HAVE tanked it and then backtrack your statements. The problem has always been you cant play a class that isnt overpowered.Its like the shadowknight mythical. Who the hell cares if shadowknights dont have the BEST fighter mythical weapon. Heck the guaridan mythical is complete crap. As long as a shadowknight is balanced with BRUISERS and BEZERKERS it doesnt matter. Its not like the shadowknight mythical is useless either. It gives a great clickly and SOME hate you cant get anywhere else but the mythical. But for you bruener it becomes a huge problem, Because you feel shadowknights need to have the best mythical. Be the highest dps fighter, tank every hardmode as well as monks and guards, and just because it bothers you be similar dps to assassins. I am actually surprised you havent made a new thread yet proclaiming your shadowknight should be parsing close to beastlords. Its pretty much your entire MO on this forum.Removing strikethrough from defensive stance and placing it on avoid buffs and the changes darkonx have stated when he doesnt go all bruener with his ranting. Will make shadowknights just as good if not better then bruisers. BL in combat, legionares modifiable. That is all that is needed. Just look at the comparison of temps I have put up. That would make every save nearly identical for use.

Bruener

02-25-2012, 05:26 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener. The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual. Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.</blockquote>By your own claims you tanked everything in TSO on your Monk as well. It was obviously balanced back than and needs to revert back to that type of balance.Really Blanka. The only arguments you ever come up with are trying to disclaim the super fine details on others arguments in attempts to deflect from the issue. You played a super OP'd class. I told you this back in DoV. People saw it come in SF. And you still claim differently. Maybe you are just that terrible that you can't even recognize how OP'd your class has to be in order for you to be decent at this game.What is the "core" of things to you? Making BL castable in combat, removing strike through immunity so they could balance it, fixing Lifetaps to be effective in end-game raiding, fixing the next to useless abilities like the Mythical buff and Manawall to you seems useless? I mean really why are people like you and Gungo so afraid of them actually closing the gap to balance things? Worried about being out of a job?</blockquote>I have NEVER advocated not balancing classes but unlike you I dont request assasnine unbalanced suggestions like giving shadowknights t1 dps, or making all heals crit and be effected by potency. When we already know it was nerfed because it was COMNPLETELY broken for solo and pvp. In fact They still need to make sure NO % based heals are effected by potency because they are and that is broken. The problem with you bruener is you have always asked for EVERYTHING every other tank has and want a completely OP class. You complain about your dps and then cry that guards who are the worst dps fighter tank better then you. You cry brawlers benefit more from block chance even though your class naturally benefits more from mit %, You cry if any tank does anything better then you. You litterally ask for everything. You suck enough at your class that you come on this board exclaiming shadowknights cant tank stuff and then find out shadowknights HAVE tanked it and then backtrack your statements. The problem has always been you cant play a class that isnt overpowered.Its like the shadowknight mythical. Who the hell cares if shadowknights dont have the BEST fighter mythical weapon. Heck the guaridan mythical is complete crap. As long as a shadowknight is balanced with BRUISERS and BEZERKERS it doesnt matter. Its not like the shadowknight mythical is useless either. It gives a great clickly and SOME hate you cant get anywhere else but the mythical. But for you bruener it becomes a huge problem, Because you feel shadowknights need to have the best mythical. Be the highest dps fighter, tank every hardmode as well as monks and guards, and just because it bothers you be similar dps to assassins. I am actually surprised you havent made a new thread yet proclaiming your shadowknight should be parsing close to beastlords. Its pretty much your entire MO on this forum.Removing strikethrough from defensive stance and placing it on avoid buffs and the changes darkonx have stated when he doesnt go all bruener with his ranting. Will make shadowknights just as good if not better then bruisers. BL in combat, legionares modifiable. That is all that is needed. Just look at the comparison of temps I have put up. That would make every save nearly identical for use.</blockquote>See what you do here? You post a long post that is just full of garbage statements that are untrue, specifically everything that you THINK I said.DPS. All I have ever said is that the gap between T1 DPS and everybody else since DoV has gotten too large and needs to shrink. Something again acknowledged by Devs at FF.Fighter Heals. I have never been an advocate for % based heals to be anything more than the flat % they say. In fact the heal crit nerf in general didn't even bother me that much because unlike a lot of people I knew at that time how little Fighter heals actually did in end game content on my SK. Its also why I think there needs to be some other type of mechanic to make the heals actually useful. Like Atans idea for an overflow ward.Guards. I was a huge advocate in SF to get Guards the defensive capabilties they have while raising their agro. I was not an advocate to give them just more DPS like some Guards were asking for. This was hugely more beneficial for them. I also think Guards work like they are supposed to since unlike Brawlers their abilities are hugely ST focused while Brawler abilities just plain are the best in both AE and ST. Guards also have less DPS while for some reason Brawlers think it is now ok for them to be both the most Defensive tank and Offensive tank....AT THE SAME TIME.Me playing my class. I am arguably the best SK that plays this game. I can go up against any other SK and will be the best. I am driven as a player just like I am driven in real life and this game is a whole lot easier than RL. I out tank any tank that has ever played around me pre-TSO and post-TSO. Anybody that has actually played with me I have the utmost certainty would agree. I have played with some of the BEST players in classes this game has ever seen that has played in number 1 guilds WW and they would tell you the same thing. Do not question my ability as a player because you obviously don't know. Now I know for a fact you cannot say the same thing and at best from everything I have heard from multiple people that have played with you....mediocre at best.The SK Mythical is junk. Sorry it always has been. It does not work as a good save since it is such a long recast on the clicky and such a restriction. The proc is terrible because it relies on a mechanic that doesn't work in end game like it should (see the section about Fighter heals). If I "lifetap" heal myself for 300 hps I get a whole 900 hate per second. These are realistic numbers. The splurt only works on a few spells and the DPS gain from them is unnoticeable. It is by far the worst Mythical buff of Fighters and was due for a change the day they made Mythicals and everybody knew it.Removing strike through is a necessity for the health of the mechanics of the game. Simply doing that isn't going to even come close to touching what Brawlers currently have...which is a lot more abilities on faster reuses. BL in-combat is a no brainer and even with that still is not as good as Tenacity since the reuse timer would not start until the procs expire leaving a lot larger gap than Tenacity as well as 1 less trigger and the reliance of having a group for it to proc. It would still be an "oh crap" my healers messed up type of ability versus a proactive "incoming AE" ability for AEs like Tenacity. I don't agree with Lego being modifiable because they lowered the reuse to 2 minutes. That is fine for that ability imo. I do think Lifetaps need to be made effective for end game content though more than anything and straight heal numbers are never going to do it. Wards seem to be the only effective heal to have if you actually have healers that are awake...hence Atan's idea of the overcap ward being a good one to actually make them useful.Really only a few Brawlers are arguing otherwise and nobody is suprised by that. But we have people of multiple classes that know exactly how things work. There is absolutely no reason at all to use anything but Brawlers in end game content. None. The only reason other Fighter classes are even raiding is because they have been for a long time and refuse to reroll. This has gone on for way too long and needs a change.

Damager

02-25-2012, 08:16 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldnt say undisputably proving someone is completely wrong on how an ability works fine details (Especialy someone saying they heal 40-50%). How many times did we get the "I KNOW" because this "I KNOW" because of that, he even gave fake examples of what to do, REALLY? Obviously he has never done it because it doesnt work. And still wants people to take his word on his math / timing knowledge of other abilities blah blah. That sir is destroying someones credibility. I mean just read that write up, everyone that has ever MTd a HM mob is laughing. Sure you can on paper make it look like brawlers are unstoppable but go do it and reality hits you in the face. I can give examples all day why that wouldnt work but at the rate of what a full page of arguing over just mending /sigh something comon knowledge to even me the noob monk rofl it would take a month to rip it down to the point he understands reality.Anyone that has ever MTd with a brawler on HM or even alot of EM has been hit through all 3 death prevents in seconds, been one shotted, has been stunned, stifled, p0wer drained , cursed, knocked around, killed by red text blah blah blah and yet you want us to believe you are magically immune to everything and can time all the abilities to perfection and never die. /sigh </blockquote>Yeah, i'm sure anyone can stand infront of red text and die like an idiot, but we are talking about tank balance, i'm sure your brawler can stand there like a boss and stand in red text dieing over and over, but you know? Other tanks can't even do that.</blockquote>Heh, yeah just as Cory said...<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I'm unkillable, Just the rest of my group dies and I sit there in eternal gridlock with the mob until I get bored enough to FD.</blockquote></blockquote>

Gungo

02-26-2012, 01:24 AM

Everything I have said in that post bruener I can provide links for in this forums. There is no point in backtrackign your statements.You literally stated a good shadowknight should outparse an equally geared mediocre assassin.You JUST stated in this thread all shadowknights heals should crit.and you have been complaining about guards outtanking you since 2006.You stated in this forum on multiple occasions until i pointed out to you that dark has maintanked everything we killed on a shadowknight that a shadowknight is unable to tank certain encounters.So what point are you trying to deny? The fact you want your offensive crusaders to be a high dps, maintank, aoe class with superior aoe hate? Because you seem to have your hand in everyones cookie jar.and your comments about my ability is laughable. I could give you multiple examples of outtanking your "source", but he seems to have an issue with anyone outplaying him. If you dont beleive me send a tell to maergoth and ask him why he left strike. Your "source" also said maergoth was complete crap and yet maergoth seems to be doing fine in equillibrium. So I would take your sources opinion with the grain of salt in which it is.

Bruener

02-26-2012, 10:35 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everything I have said in that post bruener I can provide links for in this forums. There is no point in backtrackign your statements.You literally stated a good shadowknight should outparse an equally geared mediocre assassin.Yes people that are a lot better going fully offensive should outparse people that are terrible at their class, even if they are T1. Closing the gap as I said would mean this would happen. This is no different than how the game operated pre-DoV consistently. If you are bad it should be noticeable....not bearable.You JUST stated in this thread all shadowknights heals should crit.Yeah no brainer. Obviously no % based heals should crit. They never should have. Really stop acting like Blanka pretending that you don't know exactly what I am talking about. Any non-% heal for ALL classes should crit simply because it is bad mechanic design to not have them do it, making them totally fail at scaling. Outside of that you completely ignore the fact that the heal crit nerf didn't even bother me much except for the mechanics of scaling. Even back when heals were critting they were ineffective in raid content because they are flat heals and most of the time they do nothing. 10-15 minute fights last night of me tanking large amounts of adds and my LIFETAPS healed me a whole 400 HPS. They are ineffective and need some mechanic to make them useful in raiding but in a scaling way that doesn't make them OP'd in heroic.and you have been complaining about guards outtanking you since 2006.I pointed out the obvious about Guards in RoK with their Mythicals that everybody and their brother knew were OP'd compared to the other Fighters....a lot like Brawlers since DoV. Other than that since TSO I posted ideas to make Guards better, but not by simply adding DPS like a lot of unintelligent people wanted. My goal was to push the Guard into a more defensive, and defensive utility tank like they should be. It happened at the end of SF with their fixes and since Guards are in good shape. A raid greatly benefits by having a Guard in raid even if they aren't doing the majority of the tanking...after all why use them over a Brawler?You stated in this forum on multiple occasions until i pointed out to you that dark has maintanked everything we killed on a shadowknight that a shadowknight is unable to tank certain encounters.I have never said something was unkillable by a SK. I said it is a lot more difficult and with certain set ups is unkillable. Classic recent example is clearing HM EoW with a solo healer. Something that is very easy for a Brawler to do but I would debate not doable with a non-Brawler. Unless of course you put a Brawler in the group with them to give them their huge avoidance buff along with tanking half the mobs. Again showing the disparity in Brawlers.So what point are you trying to deny? The fact you want your offensive crusaders to be a high dps, maintank, aoe class with superior aoe hate? Because you seem to have your hand in everyones cookie jar.I will spell it out for you again since you just can't seem to understand. I want the DPS difference between T1 classes and everybody else to shrink. T1 should still be top DPS, just not by 3x the DPS over everybody else. I am completely fine dividing tanks int MT and OT type classes. My problem is Brawlers own both right now by a long shot due to their abilities on faster reuse and getting hit way less often with mechanics all aimed towards punishing those being hit. Honestly all the areas that you just mentioned are ALL the areas Brawlers succeed in. That is the problem.and your comments about my ability is laughable. I could give you multiple examples of outtanking your "source", but he seems to have an issue with anyone outplaying him. If you dont beleive me send a tell to maergoth and ask him why he left strike. Your "source" also said maergoth was complete crap and yet maergoth seems to be doing fine in equillibrium. So I would take your sources opinion with the grain of salt in which it is.You make it sound like I have 1 source. You really have been a joke of the community for a long time. Maergoth is doing fine. I don't think he is a terrible player. But don't be mistaken, if Jeal came back Maergoth would be side-lined in no time. There is a difference between good and excellent.</blockquote>Lets see those posts. Stop deflecting more. Compared to other tanks Brawlers are way over the top and there is no reason in ANY situation to use anything but one.If you are such an advocate for balance than just stop posting. There is obvious disparity and nobody is asking for anything more than what they probably need to compete tool-wise.

Gungo

02-26-2012, 12:48 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everything I have said in that post bruener I can provide links for in this forums. There is no point in backtrackign your statements.You literally stated a good shadowknight should outparse an equally geared mediocre assassin.Yes people that are a lot better going fully offensive should outparse people that are terrible at their class, even if they are T1. Closing the gap as I said would mean this would happen. This is no different than how the game operated pre-DoV consistently. If you are bad it should be noticeable....not bearable.You JUST stated in this thread all shadowknights heals should crit.Yeah no brainer. Obviously no % based heals should crit. They never should have. Really stop acting like Blanka pretending that you don't know exactly what I am talking about. Any non-% heal for ALL classes should crit simply because it is bad mechanic design to not have them do it, making them totally fail at scaling. Outside of that you completely ignore the fact that the heal crit nerf didn't even bother me much except for the mechanics of scaling. Even back when heals were critting they were ineffective in raid content because they are flat heals and most of the time they do nothing. 10-15 minute fights last night of me tanking large amounts of adds and my LIFETAPS healed me a whole 400 HPS. They are ineffective and need some mechanic to make them useful in raiding but in a scaling way that doesn't make them OP'd in heroic.and you have been complaining about guards outtanking you since 2006.I pointed out the obvious about Guards in RoK with their Mythicals that everybody and their brother knew were OP'd compared to the other Fighters....a lot like Brawlers since DoV. Other than that since TSO I posted ideas to make Guards better, but not by simply adding DPS like a lot of unintelligent people wanted. My goal was to push the Guard into a more defensive, and defensive utility tank like they should be. It happened at the end of SF with their fixes and since Guards are in good shape. A raid greatly benefits by having a Guard in raid even if they aren't doing the majority of the tanking...after all why use them over a Brawler?You stated in this forum on multiple occasions until i pointed out to you that dark has maintanked everything we killed on a shadowknight that a shadowknight is unable to tank certain encounters.I have never said something was unkillable by a SK. I said it is a lot more difficult and with certain set ups is unkillable. Classic recent example is clearing HM EoW with a solo healer. Something that is very easy for a Brawler to do but I would debate not doable with a non-Brawler. Unless of course you put a Brawler in the group with them to give them their huge avoidance buff along with tanking half the mobs. Again showing the disparity in Brawlers.So what point are you trying to deny? The fact you want your offensive crusaders to be a high dps, maintank, aoe class with superior aoe hate? Because you seem to have your hand in everyones cookie jar.I will spell it out for you again since you just can't seem to understand. I want the DPS difference between T1 classes and everybody else to shrink. T1 should still be top DPS, just not by 3x the DPS over everybody else. I am completely fine dividing tanks int MT and OT type classes. My problem is Brawlers own both right now by a long shot due to their abilities on faster reuse and getting hit way less often with mechanics all aimed towards punishing those being hit. Honestly all the areas that you just mentioned are ALL the areas Brawlers succeed in. That is the problem.and your comments about my ability is laughable. I could give you multiple examples of outtanking your "source", but he seems to have an issue with anyone outplaying him. If you dont beleive me send a tell to maergoth and ask him why he left strike. Your "source" also said maergoth was complete crap and yet maergoth seems to be doing fine in equillibrium. So I would take your sources opinion with the grain of salt in which it is.You make it sound like I have 1 source. You really have been a joke of the community for a long time. Maergoth is doing fine. I don't think he is a terrible player. But don't be mistaken, if Jeal came back Maergoth would be side-lined in no time. There is a difference between good and excellent.</blockquote>Lets see those posts. Stop deflecting more. Compared to other tanks Brawlers are way over the top and there is no reason in ANY situation to use anything but one.If you are such an advocate for balance than just stop posting. There is obvious disparity and nobody is asking for anything more than what they probably need to compete tool-wise.</blockquote>You dont have any other "sources" sunshine. I know this for a fact because I get way to many tells when i log in sayign thank god i logged on when other tanks are beign failboat. And your other comments pretty much just confirmed everything i stated. No matter how you try to sugar coat it. You want your shadowknight to compete with t1, you want heal crits even though they were already considered overpowered and you still complain about guards who are the most defensive tank out tanking you.All the areas i mentioned brawlers exceed in is bogus if your MONKs out tank you on AOE content then I dont need to question your ability you already confirmed you are crap. monks are better maintanka and bruisers are better offtanks then monks. WHICH IS WHY I SAID SHADOWKNIGHTS NEED TO BE BALANCED WITH BRUISERS. not the monks and guards you constantly whine about.These are no deflection these are FACTS. Something you lack. I post because you dont know mechanics or what you are talking about and then go all bruener on threads asking for assasnine overpowered suggestions. In fact i would say these forums as a whole now are fairly reasonable. Beyond you and talathion i think everyone elses suggestions and posts are fairly valid. However I will make a deal with you. I will stop posting if you stop posting.

Bruener

02-26-2012, 05:12 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You dont have any other "sources" sunshine. I know this for a fact because I get way to many tells when i log in sayign thank god i logged on when other tanks are beign failboat. And your other comments pretty much just confirmed everything i stated. No matter how you try to sugar coat it. You want your shadowknight to compete with t1, you want heal crits even though they were already considered overpowered and you still complain about guards who are the most defensive tank out tanking you.All the areas i mentioned brawlers exceed in is bogus if your MONKs out tank you on AOE content then I dont need to question your ability you already confirmed you are crap. monks are better maintanka and bruisers are better offtanks then monks. WHICH IS WHY I SAID SHADOWKNIGHTS NEED TO BE BALANCED WITH BRUISERS. not the monks and guards you constantly whine about.These are no deflection these are FACTS. Something you lack. I post because you dont know mechanics or what you are talking about and then go all bruener on threads asking for assasnine overpowered suggestions. In fact i would say these forums as a whole now are fairly reasonable. Beyond you and talathion i think everyone elses suggestions and posts are fairly valid. However I will make a deal with you. I will stop posting if you stop posting.</blockquote>Only you would get that out of what I typed. Everybody else I am sure had np knowing exactly what I was talking about.The reason you get tells when you log in is because you play an OP'd class. Your class makes things easier.I am not going to re-explain everything I just typed to you again. You failed at understanding it and missed the point completely. It is written plain as day and really at this point its clear you just can't understand.When it comes to AE content there is just a few areas to look at for it. You have agro, snap agro, and survivability for AE. A Monk can easily sustain AE agro for AE content with the set ups you need for hate anyway. Monks can have superior AE snap control. And Monk abilities ARE far superior in AE situations. I will give you though that they are BETTER MTs than Bruisers just like Bruisers are BETTER OTs than Monks. That doesn't mean that they both aren't in the number 2 position for MT/OT.But really we can play that game and compare Zerkers and SKs to Bruisers if you want. Bruiser survivability far exceeds either SKs or Bezerkers. Their avoidance is much larger, strike through immune, stoneskins on ripostes, avoidance saves actually avoiding 100%, etc. They tank with a 2h or DW which ends up giving them by far the highest amount of auto attack DPS, especially when they are going 100% AE auto to control mobs. They have more snaps on faster reuse. Their saves are up faster. Their Death Save has more triggers, can be cast in-combat, does not drain the groups health, and can proc solo. While tanking groups of mobs they will be proc'ing their 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds every 10 seconds....if they happen to actually get hit. They only end up with like 500 less mitigation. They have 360 avoidance which is massive with groups of mobs that are designed to get behind tanks. Oh, and they are the second best MT in the game for being an "OT" type of class.If the push is to balance AE v ST than there would need to be some massive over-hauls in a lot of classes.Really though that is just being ignorant. Asking for the Strike Through mechanic to work, making BL castable in-combat, reworking Lifetaps to actually be effective in raiding, AND asking for fixes to abilities that DO NOT WORK like they were intended is hardly asking for a lot. I could put it in red for you guys so you know how simple it is.Remove Strike Through immunity to utilize the strike through mechanic correctlyMake Bloodletter castable in-combatFix Lifetaps to work in end-gameFix the SK Mythical proc to actually do somethingFix Manawall to be a reliable saveObviously there would need to be similar lists for Paladins and Zerkers. Do these things, re-evaluate and see what needs to be tweaked from there.

Talathion

02-26-2012, 09:18 PM

A cool line for warriors would be "The agility stat adds additional mitigation and strength to warriors." this would allow warriors to use chain armor/benefit from using scout jewelry.Juggernaut doing something would be cool.A Dualwield And Shield Line for Warriors would be cool.Shadow's line that improves Shield+1h/1h+1h Damage.Strikethrough Line.Wisdom Line changed to a Shield/Tank Tree/Decent Tanking Endline.Agility Line Changed to either give 40% AOE autoattack or 40% Strikethrough so it benefits the warriors equally.- Dragoon's Reflexes being given strikethrough immunity so it works.Shadowknight:Shadowknight's Furor being given Strikethrough Immunity so it works.Lifetaps actually doing as much as brawlers avoidance heal wise/adding a ward to the SK when hes being overhealed by them.Offensive Stance turning Shadowknight into a DPS Class, lowering there mitigation to chain armor/Lowering Heal Amount by (What it currently is now.) and improving Autoattack damage from two handed weapons by 20%/Raising Spell damage by 20% and adding 10% Spell Double Attack Chance, also making the Shadowknight unable to use a shield, Also reducing threat the shadowknight Generates by 50%.Paladin:Offensive Stance being changed to a healer stance, giving the paladin 30% Cast Speed+Reuse, 50% Base Heal Amount, Adding Healing Criticals, but Lowering Auto-attack Damage by 25% and Spell/Combat Art Damage by 25%, Also Reducing the threat the paladin generates by 50%.Allowing Paladins to heal in raids/groups.Unique Class Abilitys, this would allow a 4th healer (Paladin), making HM Raid Content a bit easier and adding Shadowknight as a Plate Mage with a sword type DPS Class with additional abilities to heal itself.Other Ideas:Offensive Stances for Warriors Lowering Mitigation to chain/also lowering threat, but giving the caster 25% Combat Art Damage/25% Autoattack Damage/15% In-Combat Movement Speed/15% Flurry Chance.All Non-Brawler Tanks:Add Damage Reduction instead of Mitigation increase to Defensive Stances/Improving Threat.

Novusod

02-26-2012, 11:33 PM

There are a couple of key things you guys keep forgetting about.Firstly the supposed brawler DoV era is nothing like the domination Guardians had in RoK. It was a monopoly for guardians in RoK. Do you even understand the meaning of the word monopoly. It is a combination of the latin words mono meaning one and poly meaning selection. So monopoly meant one selection and that is what RoK was like with Guardians. You either raided with guardian MT or you didn't raid at all in RoK. TSO was the same way only with SK being the main GoTo tank everyone needed. DoV is nothing like that. There is actually competition now between the tanks in DoV unlike in previous eras. For all the advantages brawlers have the class is still not actually needed for anything. Secondly everything in DoV can be and IS routinely killed without a brawler in raid. There is a difference between being nice to have and having a clear monopoly. If there really was a brawler monopoly then people like Bruener would NOT be raiding.

Talathion

02-27-2012, 12:50 AM

The most we've been balanced was in SF, before critical healing was nerfed because of solo/pvp, which doesn't matter anymore because of mercenerys and healing procs and beastlords completely dominated fighters in solo (heroics even.) aspect of the game.Brawler's Utility/Defense Ability completely dominates the defenses of the other 4 tanking classes, try again.

Corydonn

02-27-2012, 02:09 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a couple of key things you guys keep forgetting about.Firstly the supposed brawler DoV era is nothing like the domination Guardians had in RoK. It was a monopoly for guardians in RoK. Do you even understand the meaning of the word monopoly. It is a combination of the latin words mono meaning one and poly meaning selection. So monopoly meant one selection and that is what RoK was like with Guardians. You either raided with guardian MT or you didn't raid at all in RoK. TSO was the same way only with SK being the main GoTo tank everyone needed. DoV is nothing like that. There is actually competition now between the tanks in DoV unlike in previous eras. For all the advantages brawlers have the class is still not actually needed for anything. Secondly everything in DoV can be and IS routinely killed without a brawler in raid. There is a difference between being nice to have and having a clear monopoly. If there really was a brawler monopoly then people like Bruener would NOT be raiding.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure I still raided in RoK/TSO even when I was a really bad brawler.

BChizzle

02-27-2012, 03:10 AM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a couple of key things you guys keep forgetting about.Firstly the supposed brawler DoV era is nothing like the domination Guardians had in RoK. It was a monopoly for guardians in RoK. Do you even understand the meaning of the word monopoly. It is a combination of the latin words mono meaning one and poly meaning selection. So monopoly meant one selection and that is what RoK was like with Guardians. You either raided with guardian MT or you didn't raid at all in RoK. TSO was the same way only with SK being the main GoTo tank everyone needed. DoV is nothing like that. There is actually competition now between the tanks in DoV unlike in previous eras. For all the advantages brawlers have the class is still not actually needed for anything. Secondly everything in DoV can be and IS routinely killed without a brawler in raid. There is a difference between being nice to have and having a clear monopoly. If there really was a brawler monopoly then people like Bruener would NOT be raiding.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure I still raided in RoK/TSO even when I was a really bad brawler.</blockquote>Most guilds rolled with guards till TSO then SK's, yes a select few good brawlers had raid spots but back then they were viewed mostly as a joke or a throw away spot. Even more so the top bruiser in the game back then switched to guard and Confirmed how OP they were. I dont see Bruener the supposed top SK in this game switching his main to a brawler mustn't be that much of a difference.

Kimber

02-27-2012, 03:16 AM

Pretty sure Guards were not as end all be all as Tala makes it out to be in ROK. I started playing around ROK release rolld my zerk up to mid 60 got asked to go guard did that got to 80 and could not stand it. Went back zerk got my Myth and loved it as a MT for smaller easy T1 raids for a bit till TSO came out ( was close to the end of ROK and I needed to get gear so I really did not push it to much). My wife on her SK was asked to go Pally when we could have all class's on each side and did that and loved it also. Still did MT/OT on my Zerk with the Wife filling the other slot on her Pally for what raiding in TSO we did do. We know a Monk that was MT on a few raids during this time also. So all this chest beating about oh this tank is the king at this time or that is all BS guys. Yes Brawlers have it better now and Guards did have it better in ROK just as SK had it pretty good in TSO. Thing is if we want balance we all have to agree that there are some things that have been made a bit OP about some of them and some things that have just been outright nerfed to hell and back that should not have been touched.

Corydonn

02-27-2012, 03:19 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a couple of key things you guys keep forgetting about.Firstly the supposed brawler DoV era is nothing like the domination Guardians had in RoK. It was a monopoly for guardians in RoK. Do you even understand the meaning of the word monopoly. It is a combination of the latin words mono meaning one and poly meaning selection. So monopoly meant one selection and that is what RoK was like with Guardians. You either raided with guardian MT or you didn't raid at all in RoK. TSO was the same way only with SK being the main GoTo tank everyone needed. DoV is nothing like that. There is actually competition now between the tanks in DoV unlike in previous eras. For all the advantages brawlers have the class is still not actually needed for anything. Secondly everything in DoV can be and IS routinely killed without a brawler in raid. There is a difference between being nice to have and having a clear monopoly. If there really was a brawler monopoly then people like Bruener would NOT be raiding.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure I still raided in RoK/TSO even when I was a really bad brawler.</blockquote>Most guilds rolled with guards till TSO then SK's, yes a select few good brawlers had raid spots but back then they were viewed mostly as a joke or a throw away spot. Even more so the top bruiser in the game back then switched to guard and Confirmed how OP they were. I dont see Bruener the supposed top SK in this game switching his main to a brawler mustn't be that much of a difference.</blockquote>No, I really was terrible back then. All you had to do to get a mob was hit divide and conquer and healers could keep you up in offensive stance while hitting no cooldowns. Defensive stance was unheard of for me back then. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Plus I remember guilds using SKs as MTs to progress and even get mythicals back then.

Novusod

02-27-2012, 06:27 AM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are a couple of key things you guys keep forgetting about.Firstly the supposed brawler DoV era is nothing like the domination Guardians had in RoK. It was a monopoly for guardians in RoK. Do you even understand the meaning of the word monopoly. It is a combination of the latin words mono meaning one and poly meaning selection. So monopoly meant one selection and that is what RoK was like with Guardians. You either raided with guardian MT or you didn't raid at all in RoK. TSO was the same way only with SK being the main GoTo tank everyone needed. DoV is nothing like that. There is actually competition now between the tanks in DoV unlike in previous eras. For all the advantages brawlers have the class is still not actually needed for anything. Secondly everything in DoV can be and IS routinely killed without a brawler in raid. There is a difference between being nice to have and having a clear monopoly. If there really was a brawler monopoly then people like Bruener would NOT be raiding.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure I still raided in RoK/TSO even when I was a really bad brawler.</blockquote>Most guilds rolled with guards till TSO then SK's, yes a select few good brawlers had raid spots but back then they were viewed mostly as a joke or a throw away spot. Even more so the top bruiser in the game back then switched to guard and Confirmed how OP they were. I dont see Bruener the supposed top SK in this game switching his main to a brawler mustn't be that much of a difference.</blockquote>No, I really was terrible back then. All you had to do to get a mob was hit divide and conquer and healers could keep you up in offensive stance while hitting no cooldowns. Defensive stance was unheard of for me back then. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> Plus I remember guilds using SKs as MTs to progress and even get mythicals back then.</blockquote>The only thing that is terrible is your terrible memory. Divide and conquer did not work on hardly anything in RoK and nobody seriously used brawler tanks in RoK. Nobody used a brawler MT to kill Druushk for the first time or to tank Trackanon. Most guilds didn't use brawlers at all because they were jokes and the only guilds that did have a brawler in the raid were run by leaders who didn't know any better. If things were going well for you Corydonn then you were the exception not the rule. The thing that stands out most is just how useless brawlers were back then or how little they were wanted or needed in raid. Brawlers were the worst tank in game by a mile with sub par dps and lousy utility to boot. Also the whole tank in offensive stance itself was a horribly broken mechanic. TSO was a joke for brawlers too where I had to spend most of that expansion raiding on my alt dirge because the guild I raided with retired its' brawler slot.I wasn't the only one who was having these issues. I remember when Truumak gave up on his bruiser tank halfway through TSO. That was the low point for brawler tanks because the best and last of the old school brawlers couldn't do it anymore. That one event was a wake up call to the players and devs that things had gotten so bad that it was do or die time. Either fix the class or it is time get the out of dodge. The fixes that eventually came are the same ones being complained about in this thread. Strikethrough immunity being a big one and our death prevent being the other. What is rediculous is that brawlers are still the only tank that don't get a self death prevent before level 90.The off season tanks of DoV don't know how good and easy they have it now. By no means are SKs and Zerkers under the same presure to quit and retire or were being forced out of raiding like brawlers were in RoK and TSO. They may not be the flavor of the month but they are not broken either. The whole thing is just a bunch of crocodile tears from a bunch of has beens who can't stand the idea that they are not the best anymore. I say this with 100% seriousness that class ballance is the best it has ever been right now. For the first time ever there is real competition between the tank classes.

Talathion

02-27-2012, 02:32 PM

Yes... because people are really looking for Shadowknights and Zerkers to Main Tank there raids... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />All serious raiding guilds use a certain type of brawler as a main tank, there IS no comparison to other classes, if you don't have a brawler you are just holding your raid force back.If you can't see the crazy amount of damage reduction/avoidance/dps/snap aggro/utility/death saves/mitigation/good scaling aa abilitys that brawlers simply have that doesn't completely blow away the other fighters then you MUST be blind.Also, this game doesn't really matter until level 90, and it takes a day to get it.

Yimway

02-27-2012, 05:18 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.</blockquote>I'll say it, content feels too easy on my monk, and reasonable on my guard.MTing on my paladin seems like why would I want to given the other options, but the class remains extremely solid, for all things outside of raid. I will not speak to SK, Bruiser, or Zerker, as I've all but deleted these toons.I'm pretty sure the answer isn't to make everyone do things as easily as a monk does, the answer is somewhere inbetween.

Gungo

02-27-2012, 09:35 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only thing that is terrible is your terrible memory. Divide and conquer did not work on hardly anything in RoK and nobody seriously used brawler tanks in RoK.</blockquote>You are correct ROK was the expansion they nerfed target locks/Drag. A clear example of this is Avatar of flame pillars were draggable in EOF and NOT draggable in ROK. This is also the expansion they introduced strikethrough although it was just on the revamped avatars. The next expansion "TSO" every npc had strikethrough and it wasnt until SF we received immunity.

Gungo

02-27-2012, 09:38 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.</blockquote>I'll say it, content feels too easy on my monk, and reasonable on my guard.MTing on my paladin seems like why would I want to given the other options, but the class remains extremely solid, for all things outside of raid. I will not speak to SK, Bruiser, or Zerker, as I've all but deleted these toons.I'm pretty sure the answer isn't to make everyone do things as easily as a monk does, the answer is somewhere inbetween.</blockquote>I agree with you strikethrough immunity needs to go away and be put on all avoid buffs. I also dont think the heroic AA needs a third death save, its a sollid AA without that final rank buff. In fact no tank should have that many death saves the DP or die mechanics are dumb.

Novusod

02-28-2012, 07:21 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with you strikethrough immunity needs to go away and be put on all avoid buffs. I also dont think the heroic AA needs a third death save, its a sollid AA without that final rank buff. In fact no tank should have that many death saves the DP or die mechanics are dumb.</blockquote>You are delusional if you think brawlers would still be viable raid tanks without strikethrough immunity. The day that happens most guilds would permanently bench their brawlers so fast your head would would spin. Do you think Darkonx keeps you arround for your wit? Ha, you would be gone too or are you so blind as to not see the point of this thread is to remove brawlers from high end raiding. If you take away the reason to bring a brawler tank then guilds aren't going to keep us arround just for the heck of it.Brawlers were given strikethrough immunity for a reason and that was because they wanted to make us long term viable tanks not just tanks that lasted 10s while parry was up and then splat. Strikethrough immunity was no bandaid fix as you keep calling it. Our entire class is ballanced arround avoiding hits. That is what makes us avoidance tanks. Brawlers don't have plate armor or crazy stoneskins like guardians or lifetaps and wards like crusaders. Brawler strikethrough immunity is never going away so long as the devs intend for us to be serious tanks. The plate tanks are just going to have to put on their big boy pants and deal with the competition. There is no content in the game a plate tank can't handle so it is fair and ballanced as far as actual raiding is concerned. I have no problem calling a spade a spade here. The game is ballanced and that is the end of it.

Talathion

02-28-2012, 02:29 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with you strikethrough immunity needs to go away and be put on all avoid buffs. I also dont think the heroic AA needs a third death save, its a sollid AA without that final rank buff. In fact no tank should have that many death saves the DP or die mechanics are dumb.</blockquote>You are delusional if you think brawlers would still be viable raid tanks without strikethrough immunity. The day that happens most guilds would permanently bench their brawlers so fast your head would would spin. Do you think Darkonx keeps you arround for your wit? Ha, you would be gone too or are you so blind as to not see the point of this thread is to remove brawlers from high end raiding. If you take away the reason to bring a brawler tank then guilds aren't going to keep us arround just for the heck of it.Brawlers were given strikethrough immunity for a reason and that was because they wanted to make us long term viable tanks not just tanks that lasted 10s while parry was up and then splat. Strikethrough immunity was no bandaid fix as you keep calling it. Our entire class is ballanced arround avoiding hits. That is what makes us avoidance tanks. Brawlers don't have plate armor or crazy stoneskins like guardians or lifetaps and wards like crusaders. Brawler strikethrough immunity is never going away so long as the devs intend for us to be serious tanks. The plate tanks are just going to have to put on their big boy pants and deal with the competition. There is no content in the game a plate tank can't handle so it is fair and ballanced as far as actual raiding is concerned. I have no problem calling a spade a spade here. The game is ballanced and that is the end of it.</blockquote>Yeah if they removed strikethrough immunity not all brawlers could easilly tank everything, just like all tanks can't tank everything easily now.Its called balance.YOU REALLY don't need all the stuff you have AND strikethrough immunity, if they don't remove it they are going to have to get rid of your death prevention or put a huge penalty on it, such as only a 50% chance to proc.Your too powerful and theres no way to buff the other tanks to your level without revamping there entire aa's and making heals critical again, and then adding MORE buffs to figher healing, so they parse atleast 8000-12000 hps, then adding MORE stoneskins to guardian.Which they won't do, because that would make us OP in solo/pvp content. (whoever even plays that anymore.)Even if thats not the entire point, its much easier just to nerf brawlers then buff everyone else, BUT if they find a way to buff tanks up to a brawlers power instead, so be it, I hate nerfs anyways.

Yimway

02-28-2012, 03:13 PM

Damager

02-28-2012, 03:37 PM

Yimway

02-28-2012, 03:58 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough immune is only in full defensive, MT in mid stance that would give you a rough comparison.</blockquote>I can get some psuedo numbers doing this and then just adjusting for the difference in uncontested avoidance using a constant. If I can find an opportunity to get some comparison pulls done I will.

Bruener

02-28-2012, 05:03 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with you strikethrough immunity needs to go away and be put on all avoid buffs. I also dont think the heroic AA needs a third death save, its a sollid AA without that final rank buff. In fact no tank should have that many death saves the DP or die mechanics are dumb.</blockquote>You are delusional if you think brawlers would still be viable raid tanks without strikethrough immunity. The day that happens most guilds would permanently bench their brawlers so fast your head would would spin. Do you think Darkonx keeps you arround for your wit? Ha, you would be gone too or are you so blind as to not see the point of this thread is to remove brawlers from high end raiding. If you take away the reason to bring a brawler tank then guilds aren't going to keep us arround just for the heck of it.</blockquote>It is dificult to quantify how hard that would affect brawlers or not. I'd love to see some real data on it, but there isn't a viable way for us to simulate it.Gungo suggest that passive strikethru avoidance be removed and smaller strikethru avoindance %'s be added to short term buffs. This method does seem to have merits when adjusting and balancing tanks across all 3 archtypes, and certainly is more flexible than having those who have it and those that do not. A system like this allows brawlers to benefit from a higher % on short terms if that higher percentis warranted when compaired to their overall damage avoidance, mitigation, and ability to avoid deaths.Since they'll need to add something new to treadmill for in the next expansion, strikethru avoidance or something similar seems a likely candidate.</blockquote>Strikethrough immune is only in full defensive, MT in mid stance that would give you a rough comparison.I just keep getting flashbacks of being oneshotted with tsunami up =(</blockquote>Yeah because defensive stance doesn't add anything else right?Really Brawler avoidance would still be superior, but they would have to be a little more reliant on avoidance lend from another tank....like Plates have to be in current game.The mechanic needs to go though because it completely nullifies a tool SOE needs to keep the super high avoidance numbers in check across the board.

Damager

02-28-2012, 05:06 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough immune is only in full defensive, MT in mid stance that would give you a rough comparison.</blockquote>I can get some psuedo numbers doing this and then just adjusting for the difference in uncontested avoidance using a constant. If I can find an opportunity to get some comparison pulls done I will.</blockquote>That should get you close.Defensive avoided - Mid avoided = X - 14% (difference in uncontested) = Strikethrough damage /shrug Guess would be 30% increase in damage ( factor in also tsunami and bob and weave would no longer be as effective and only way monk can heal anything back is if hit for over 40% of their health, useless in Instances and most EM)

Damager

02-28-2012, 05:28 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with you strikethrough immunity needs to go away and be put on all avoid buffs. I also dont think the heroic AA needs a third death save, its a sollid AA without that final rank buff. In fact no tank should have that many death saves the DP or die mechanics are dumb.</blockquote>You are delusional if you think brawlers would still be viable raid tanks without strikethrough immunity. The day that happens most guilds would permanently bench their brawlers so fast your head would would spin. Do you think Darkonx keeps you arround for your wit? Ha, you would be gone too or are you so blind as to not see the point of this thread is to remove brawlers from high end raiding. If you take away the reason to bring a brawler tank then guilds aren't going to keep us arround just for the heck of it.</blockquote>It is dificult to quantify how hard that would affect brawlers or not. I'd love to see some real data on it, but there isn't a viable way for us to simulate it.Gungo suggest that passive strikethru avoidance be removed and smaller strikethru avoindance %'s be added to short term buffs. This method does seem to have merits when adjusting and balancing tanks across all 3 archtypes, and certainly is more flexible than having those who have it and those that do not. A system like this allows brawlers to benefit from a higher % on short terms if that higher percentis warranted when compaired to their overall damage avoidance, mitigation, and ability to avoid deaths.Since they'll need to add something new to treadmill for in the next expansion, strikethru avoidance or something similar seems a likely candidate.</blockquote>Strikethrough immune is only in full defensive, MT in mid stance that would give you a rough comparison.I just keep getting flashbacks of being oneshotted with tsunami up =(</blockquote>Yeah because defensive stance doesn't add anything else right?Really Brawler avoidance would still be superior, but they would have to be a little more reliant on avoidance lend from another tank....like Plates have to be in current game.The mechanic needs to go though because it completely nullifies a tool SOE needs to keep the super high avoidance numbers in check across the board.</blockquote>Adds aggresion, and 25% mitigation to worn armor, He is just compairing avoidance (strikethrough vs no strikethrough) Not total damage.Monk avoidance would have to be superior still in order to mitigate the damage compared to other tanks as they have no real reactive heals or stoneskins that work under a certain percentage of damage takin. Inner focus only works on physical damage and must be over 25% of your max health 2 attacks, Superior guard only works if hit for 35% of max health 1 attack, reactive heal procs when hit over 40% of max health.. This would lock the monk in as the very worst instance tank,

Yimway

02-28-2012, 05:36 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough immune is only in full defensive, MT in mid stance that would give you a rough comparison.</blockquote>I can get some psuedo numbers doing this and then just adjusting for the difference in uncontested avoidance using a constant. If I can find an opportunity to get some comparison pulls done I will.</blockquote>That should get you close.Defensive avoided - Mid avoided = X - 14% (difference in uncontested) = Strikethrough damage /shrug Guess would be 30% increase in damage ( factor in also tsunami and bob and weave would no longer be as effective and only way monk can heal anything back is if hit for over 40% of their health, useless in Instances and most EM)</blockquote>If I was a betting man, I'd say the difference will be closer to 15 than 30. And I bet the difference in deaths will be rather small. I hope to have time to run the numbers though, cause the results will be interesting regardless of who is correct.

Damager

02-28-2012, 05:47 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough immune is only in full defensive, MT in mid stance that would give you a rough comparison.</blockquote>I can get some psuedo numbers doing this and then just adjusting for the difference in uncontested avoidance using a constant. If I can find an opportunity to get some comparison pulls done I will.</blockquote>That should get you close.Defensive avoided - Mid avoided = X - 14% (difference in uncontested) = Strikethrough damage /shrug Guess would be 30% increase in damage ( factor in also tsunami and bob and weave would no longer be as effective and only way monk can heal anything back is if hit for over 40% of their health, useless in Instances and most EM)</blockquote>If I was a betting man, I'd say the difference will be closer to 15 than 30. And I bet the difference in deaths will be rather small. I hope to have time to run the numbers though, cause the results will be interesting regardless of who is correct.</blockquote>Yeah I know what your thinking and probably correct if you dont factor in tsunami and bob and weave. However, if you compare tsunami being used twice in one fight now (Thats 40s of no autoattack damage) vs tsunami being strukthrough heh it goes way up. This is also why our avoid looks so high on parse, its the bob and weave and tsunami inflating the numbers for short durations.

Bruener

02-28-2012, 06:18 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough immune is only in full defensive, MT in mid stance that would give you a rough comparison.</blockquote>I can get some psuedo numbers doing this and then just adjusting for the difference in uncontested avoidance using a constant. If I can find an opportunity to get some comparison pulls done I will.</blockquote>That should get you close.Defensive avoided - Mid avoided = X - 14% (difference in uncontested) = Strikethrough damage /shrug Guess would be 30% increase in damage ( factor in also tsunami and bob and weave would no longer be as effective and only way monk can heal anything back is if hit for over 40% of their health, useless in Instances and most EM)</blockquote>If I was a betting man, I'd say the difference will be closer to 15 than 30. And I bet the difference in deaths will be rather small. I hope to have time to run the numbers though, cause the results will be interesting regardless of who is correct.</blockquote>Yeah I know what your thinking and probably correct if you dont factor in tsunami and bob and weave. However, if you compare tsunami being used twice in one fight now (Thats 40s of no autoattack damage) vs tsunami being strukthrough heh it goes way up. This is also why our avoid looks so high on parse, its the bob and weave and tsunami inflating the numbers for short durations. </blockquote>This is why a lot of people have been saying that the strike through immunity should be put on ALL fighter avoidance saves. Otherwise how is that any different than the Plate fighters having to deal with the strike through on theirs?

circusgirl

02-28-2012, 09:47 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough immune is only in full defensive, MT in mid stance that would give you a rough comparison.</blockquote>I can get some psuedo numbers doing this and then just adjusting for the difference in uncontested avoidance using a constant. If I can find an opportunity to get some comparison pulls done I will.</blockquote>That should get you close.Defensive avoided - Mid avoided = X - 14% (difference in uncontested) = Strikethrough damage /shrug Guess would be 30% increase in damage ( factor in also tsunami and bob and weave would no longer be as effective and only way monk can heal anything back is if hit for over 40% of their health, useless in Instances and most EM)</blockquote>If I was a betting man, I'd say the difference will be closer to 15 than 30. And I bet the difference in deaths will be rather small. I hope to have time to run the numbers though, cause the results will be interesting regardless of who is correct.</blockquote>Yeah I know what your thinking and probably correct if you dont factor in tsunami and bob and weave. However, if you compare tsunami being used twice in one fight now (Thats 40s of no autoattack damage) vs tsunami being strukthrough heh it goes way up. This is also why our avoid looks so high on parse, its the bob and weave and tsunami inflating the numbers for short durations. </blockquote>This is why a lot of people have been saying that the strike through immunity should be put on ALL fighter avoidance saves. Otherwise how is that any different than the Plate fighters having to deal with the strike through on theirs?</blockquote>While I'm completely against the idea of getting rid of brawler strikethrough immunity, I think it would be entirely reasonable to put strikethrough immunity on all 100% avoidance temporary buffs.

Bruener

02-28-2012, 10:42 PM

I really don't think you guys are getting why strike through immunity should be removed. Its not even a balance issue its a mechanics issue.A similar example I could give is the new crit mechanic that will be coming up. They are basically going to give the mobs an innate crit chance to do a little more damage. Now imagine if they made Crusaders immune to being crit on. 2 Fighters completely immune to a mechanic designed to make sure that Tanks especially don't become too invincible destroys the purpose of the mechanic.The great side effect of removing strike through immunity is that it does go towards balancing Fighters.

Novusod

02-29-2012, 01:03 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with you strikethrough immunity needs to go away and be put on all avoid buffs. I also dont think the heroic AA needs a third death save, its a sollid AA without that final rank buff. In fact no tank should have that many death saves the DP or die mechanics are dumb.</blockquote>You are delusional if you think brawlers would still be viable raid tanks without strikethrough immunity. The day that happens most guilds would permanently bench their brawlers so fast your head would would spin. Do you think Darkonx keeps you arround for your wit? Ha, you would be gone too or are you so blind as to not see the point of this thread is to remove brawlers from high end raiding. If you take away the reason to bring a brawler tank then guilds aren't going to keep us arround just for the heck of it.</blockquote>It is dificult to quantify how hard that would affect brawlers or not. I'd love to see some real data on it, but there isn't a viable way for us to simulate it.Gungo suggest that passive strikethru avoidance be removed and smaller strikethru avoindance %'s be added to short term buffs. This method does seem to have merits when adjusting and balancing tanks across all 3 archtypes, and certainly is more flexible than having those who have it and those that do not. A system like this allows brawlers to benefit from a higher % on short terms if that higher percentis warranted when compaired to their overall damage avoidance, mitigation, and ability to avoid deaths.Since they'll need to add something new to treadmill for in the next expansion, strikethru avoidance or something similar seems a likely candidate.</blockquote>Stop trying to back peddle, as you know exactly what would happen without strikethrough immunity. It was just a couple pages back where you said Gungo and Blanka wouldn't be raiding. That is pretty funny considering they are some of the best brawlers out there. In the case of Blanka he actually tanked raids in TSO because he had the best Avatar gear in the game. The thing is there is no tanking in DoV on a brawler without strikethrough immunity. So all brawlers would be out of job if you trolls ever got brawlers distroyed with nerfs.I know for myself that there are certain mobs that cause defensive stance to drop sometimes. It is usually fatal within a half a second of losing the strikethrough immunity attached to the defensive stance. The difference between having strikethrough imminity and not having it is night and day. As soon as strikethrough immunity drops it is just instant splat and the healers are like what that heck killed me. This is why strikethrough immunity has never been touched. It is far too easy to proove what happens when an avoidance tank stops avoiding hits. It is just instant splat dead so don't even try to tank without strikethrough immunity on a brawler. Every brawler knows this, the devs know this, and even you know this if you would be honest enough to admit it.I have been in a top tier guild for the last few months and we use guardian, SK, and bruiser to do the tanking. The game is very well ballanced between the three of us and none of us are struggling. But I will tell you one thing there is no room in any guild for a tank that cannot tank. Things are the way they are for a reason and that includes brawler strikethrough immunity. Brawlers don't have any super huge advantage over other tanks. The only tank that is kind of weak is the berserker and that is because they were unfairly nerfed by PvP trolls. Breaking brawlers will not make berserkers better. Worry about your own class and stop trying to destroy mine.

Damager

02-29-2012, 01:19 AM

meh

Damager

02-29-2012, 01:25 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really don't think you guys are getting why strike through immunity should be removed. Its not even a balance issue its a mechanics issue.A similar example I could give is the new crit mechanic that will be coming up. They are basically going to give the mobs an innate crit chance to do a little more damage. Now imagine if they made Crusaders immune to being crit on. 2 Fighters completely immune to a mechanic designed to make sure that Tanks especially don't become too invincible destroys the purpose of the mechanic.The great side effect of removing strike through immunity is that it does go towards balancing Fighters.</blockquote>I dont think you understand brawler mechanics personally. You are arguing with people that have been brawlers for years and stuck it out through the good and bad. The only people in here i see complaining are people who either 1 never played a brawler or 2 rolled one after they where fixed.

Damager

02-29-2012, 01:36 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strikethrough immune is only in full defensive, MT in mid stance that would give you a rough comparison.</blockquote>I can get some psuedo numbers doing this and then just adjusting for the difference in uncontested avoidance using a constant. If I can find an opportunity to get some comparison pulls done I will.</blockquote>That should get you close.Defensive avoided - Mid avoided = X - 14% (difference in uncontested) = Strikethrough damage /shrug Guess would be 30% increase in damage ( factor in also tsunami and bob and weave would no longer be as effective and only way monk can heal anything back is if hit for over 40% of their health, useless in Instances and most EM)</blockquote>If I was a betting man, I'd say the difference will be closer to 15 than 30. And I bet the difference in deaths will be rather small. I hope to have time to run the numbers though, cause the results will be interesting regardless of who is correct.</blockquote>Yeah I know what your thinking and probably correct if you dont factor in tsunami and bob and weave. However, if you compare tsunami being used twice in one fight now (Thats 40s of no autoattack damage) vs tsunami being strukthrough heh it goes way up. This is also why our avoid looks so high on parse, its the bob and weave and tsunami inflating the numbers for short durations. </blockquote>This is why a lot of people have been saying that the strike through immunity should be put on ALL fighter avoidance saves. Otherwise how is that any different than the Plate fighters having to deal with the strike through on theirs?</blockquote>Correct, I have been saying that all along. Bring the others up to where the monk is. The brawler will flounder without it, the plates would find a happy medium with it in their temps.Either way it wont get a guild any further in progression.

Bruener

02-29-2012, 12:54 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with you strikethrough immunity needs to go away and be put on all avoid buffs. I also dont think the heroic AA needs a third death save, its a sollid AA without that final rank buff. In fact no tank should have that many death saves the DP or die mechanics are dumb.</blockquote>You are delusional if you think brawlers would still be viable raid tanks without strikethrough immunity. The day that happens most guilds would permanently bench their brawlers so fast your head would would spin. Do you think Darkonx keeps you arround for your wit? Ha, you would be gone too or are you so blind as to not see the point of this thread is to remove brawlers from high end raiding. If you take away the reason to bring a brawler tank then guilds aren't going to keep us arround just for the heck of it.</blockquote>It is dificult to quantify how hard that would affect brawlers or not. I'd love to see some real data on it, but there isn't a viable way for us to simulate it.Gungo suggest that passive strikethru avoidance be removed and smaller strikethru avoindance %'s be added to short term buffs. This method does seem to have merits when adjusting and balancing tanks across all 3 archtypes, and certainly is more flexible than having those who have it and those that do not. A system like this allows brawlers to benefit from a higher % on short terms if that higher percentis warranted when compaired to their overall damage avoidance, mitigation, and ability to avoid deaths.Since they'll need to add something new to treadmill for in the next expansion, strikethru avoidance or something similar seems a likely candidate.</blockquote>Stop trying to back peddle, as you know exactly what would happen without strikethrough immunity. It was just a couple pages back where you said Gungo and Blanka wouldn't be raiding. That is pretty funny considering they are some of the best brawlers out there. In the case of Blanka he actually tanked raids in TSO because he had the best Avatar gear in the game. The thing is there is no tanking in DoV on a brawler without strikethrough immunity. So all brawlers would be out of job if you trolls ever got brawlers distroyed with nerfs.I know for myself that there are certain mobs that cause defensive stance to drop sometimes. It is usually fatal within a half a second of losing the strikethrough immunity attached to the defensive stance. The difference between having strikethrough imminity and not having it is night and day. As soon as strikethrough immunity drops it is just instant splat and the healers are like what that heck killed me. This is why strikethrough immunity has never been touched. It is far too easy to proove what happens when an avoidance tank stops avoiding hits. It is just instant splat dead so don't even try to tank without strikethrough immunity on a brawler. Every brawler knows this, the devs know this, and even you know this if you would be honest enough to admit it.I have been in a top tier guild for the last few months and we use guardian, SK, and bruiser to do the tanking. The game is very well ballanced between the three of us and none of us are struggling. But I will tell you one thing there is no room in any guild for a tank that cannot tank. Things are the way they are for a reason and that includes brawler strikethrough immunity. Brawlers don't have any super huge advantage over other tanks. The only tank that is kind of weak is the berserker and that is because they were unfairly nerfed by PvP trolls. Breaking brawlers will not make berserkers better. Worry about your own class and stop trying to destroy mine.</blockquote>I find it extremely pathetic that you actually think Gungo and Blanka are some of the best Brawlers playing...it tells me a lot about your understanding on who is playing end game and how they are doing. I believe it was Gungo himself that posted in another thread that he understood he was not part of the best of the class...putting himself as a mediocre player. This is not a dig at Gungo just a relay of what he said. I am sure that he would still retain a raid spot because he commits to the time and knows how to play which is a huge part of what it takes.Both those Brawler sources have also stated that strike through immunity should be moved to temps instead. Because honestly with them limiting mobs strike through (once they actually find the time to nerf it) it is not as large as you think and with temps still retaining the mechanic you don't have to worry about dying to auto attacks like Plate tanks do right now when using a save that SHOULD be avoiding that 100%.Unlike you nobody else thinks things should be balanced the way they are for F2P either. So not suprising you are doing everything you can to retain bad mechanics design to keep your class just that much better.

Novusod

02-29-2012, 01:55 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with you strikethrough immunity needs to go away and be put on all avoid buffs. I also dont think the heroic AA needs a third death save, its a sollid AA without that final rank buff. In fact no tank should have that many death saves the DP or die mechanics are dumb.</blockquote>You are delusional if you think brawlers would still be viable raid tanks without strikethrough immunity. The day that happens most guilds would permanently bench their brawlers so fast your head would would spin. Do you think Darkonx keeps you arround for your wit? Ha, you would be gone too or are you so blind as to not see the point of this thread is to remove brawlers from high end raiding. If you take away the reason to bring a brawler tank then guilds aren't going to keep us arround just for the heck of it.</blockquote>It is dificult to quantify how hard that would affect brawlers or not. I'd love to see some real data on it, but there isn't a viable way for us to simulate it.Gungo suggest that passive strikethru avoidance be removed and smaller strikethru avoindance %'s be added to short term buffs. This method does seem to have merits when adjusting and balancing tanks across all 3 archtypes, and certainly is more flexible than having those who have it and those that do not. A system like this allows brawlers to benefit from a higher % on short terms if that higher percentis warranted when compaired to their overall damage avoidance, mitigation, and ability to avoid deaths.Since they'll need to add something new to treadmill for in the next expansion, strikethru avoidance or something similar seems a likely candidate.</blockquote>Stop trying to back peddle, as you know exactly what would happen without strikethrough immunity. It was just a couple pages back where you said Gungo and Blanka wouldn't be raiding. That is pretty funny considering they are some of the best brawlers out there. In the case of Blanka he actually tanked raids in TSO because he had the best Avatar gear in the game. The thing is there is no tanking in DoV on a brawler without strikethrough immunity. So all brawlers would be out of job if you trolls ever got brawlers distroyed with nerfs.I know for myself that there are certain mobs that cause defensive stance to drop sometimes. It is usually fatal within a half a second of losing the strikethrough immunity attached to the defensive stance. The difference between having strikethrough imminity and not having it is night and day. As soon as strikethrough immunity drops it is just instant splat and the healers are like what that heck killed me. This is why strikethrough immunity has never been touched. It is far too easy to proove what happens when an avoidance tank stops avoiding hits. It is just instant splat dead so don't even try to tank without strikethrough immunity on a brawler. Every brawler knows this, the devs know this, and even you know this if you would be honest enough to admit it.I have been in a top tier guild for the last few months and we use guardian, SK, and bruiser to do the tanking. The game is very well ballanced between the three of us and none of us are struggling. But I will tell you one thing there is no room in any guild for a tank that cannot tank. Things are the way they are for a reason and that includes brawler strikethrough immunity. Brawlers don't have any super huge advantage over other tanks. The only tank that is kind of weak is the berserker and that is because they were unfairly nerfed by PvP trolls. Breaking brawlers will not make berserkers better. Worry about your own class and stop trying to destroy mine.</blockquote>I find it extremely pathetic that you actually think Gungo and Blanka are some of the best Brawlers playing...it tells me a lot about your understanding on who is playing end game and how they are doing. I believe it was Gungo himself that posted in another thread that he understood he was not part of the best of the class...putting himself as a mediocre player. This is not a dig at Gungo just a relay of what he said. I am sure that he would still retain a raid spot because he commits to the time and knows how to play which is a huge part of what it takes.Both those Brawler sources have also stated that strike through immunity should be moved to temps instead. Because honestly with them limiting mobs strike through (once they actually find the time to nerf it) it is not as large as you think and with temps still retaining the mechanic you don't have to worry about dying to auto attacks like Plate tanks do right now when using a save that SHOULD be avoiding that 100%.Unlike you nobody else thinks things should be balanced the way they are for F2P either. So not suprising you are doing everything you can to retain bad mechanics design to keep your class just that much better.</blockquote>I think it is extremely pathetic that you are trying to have it both ways in saying that those two are bad and then agreeing with them on changing strikethrough immunity. If you see I think Gungo's position on skrikethrough immunity is delusional. There is one undeniable fact that NO brawlers would be raiding seriously if strikethrough immunity was nerfed. It does not matter how good a player someone is if the mechanics are stacked against brawlers then they won't be raiding. And damm straight I want my class to remain viable. I like eq2 and I like raiding so I am not going to give up this position without a fight.On the subject of F2P most of the player base is bronze and silver or casual non-raider so of course it makes sense to ballance classes for them as well. At low levels and with unmaxed AA plate tanks are light years more powerful than brawlers. Brawlers are the least played tanks and the bruiser is one of the least played classes over all. The most popular class in the entire game is the Berserker. These are the statistics that the devs actually look at when they factor in F2P class ballance. <a href="http://eq2mission.flame.org/summary/adventure_classes" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2mission.flame.org/summary...venture_classes</a> The devs are not going to nerf a class that is already unpopular nor are they going to buff up a class that is already seen as over powered flavor of the month.

Talathion

02-29-2012, 02:01 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with you strikethrough immunity needs to go away and be put on all avoid buffs. I also dont think the heroic AA needs a third death save, its a sollid AA without that final rank buff. In fact no tank should have that many death saves the DP or die mechanics are dumb.</blockquote>You are delusional if you think brawlers would still be viable raid tanks without strikethrough immunity. The day that happens most guilds would permanently bench their brawlers so fast your head would would spin. Do you think Darkonx keeps you arround for your wit? Ha, you would be gone too or are you so blind as to not see the point of this thread is to remove brawlers from high end raiding. If you take away the reason to bring a brawler tank then guilds aren't going to keep us arround just for the heck of it.</blockquote>It is dificult to quantify how hard that would affect brawlers or not. I'd love to see some real data on it, but there isn't a viable way for us to simulate it.Gungo suggest that passive strikethru avoidance be removed and smaller strikethru avoindance %'s be added to short term buffs. This method does seem to have merits when adjusting and balancing tanks across all 3 archtypes, and certainly is more flexible than having those who have it and those that do not. A system like this allows brawlers to benefit from a higher % on short terms if that higher percentis warranted when compaired to their overall damage avoidance, mitigation, and ability to avoid deaths.Since they'll need to add something new to treadmill for in the next expansion, strikethru avoidance or something similar seems a likely candidate.</blockquote>Stop trying to back peddle, as you know exactly what would happen without strikethrough immunity. It was just a couple pages back where you said Gungo and Blanka wouldn't be raiding. That is pretty funny considering they are some of the best brawlers out there. In the case of Blanka he actually tanked raids in TSO because he had the best Avatar gear in the game. The thing is there is no tanking in DoV on a brawler without strikethrough immunity. So all brawlers would be out of job if you trolls ever got brawlers distroyed with nerfs.I know for myself that there are certain mobs that cause defensive stance to drop sometimes. It is usually fatal within a half a second of losing the strikethrough immunity attached to the defensive stance. The difference between having strikethrough imminity and not having it is night and day. As soon as strikethrough immunity drops it is just instant splat and the healers are like what that heck killed me. This is why strikethrough immunity has never been touched. It is far too easy to proove what happens when an avoidance tank stops avoiding hits. It is just instant splat dead so don't even try to tank without strikethrough immunity on a brawler. Every brawler knows this, the devs know this, and even you know this if you would be honest enough to admit it.I have been in a top tier guild for the last few months and we use guardian, SK, and bruiser to do the tanking. The game is very well ballanced between the three of us and none of us are struggling. But I will tell you one thing there is no room in any guild for a tank that cannot tank. Things are the way they are for a reason and that includes brawler strikethrough immunity. Brawlers don't have any super huge advantage over other tanks. The only tank that is kind of weak is the berserker and that is because they were unfairly nerfed by PvP trolls. Breaking brawlers will not make berserkers better. Worry about your own class and stop trying to destroy mine.</blockquote>I find it extremely pathetic that you actually think Gungo and Blanka are some of the best Brawlers playing...it tells me a lot about your understanding on who is playing end game and how they are doing. I believe it was Gungo himself that posted in another thread that he understood he was not part of the best of the class...putting himself as a mediocre player. This is not a dig at Gungo just a relay of what he said. I am sure that he would still retain a raid spot because he commits to the time and knows how to play which is a huge part of what it takes.Both those Brawler sources have also stated that strike through immunity should be moved to temps instead. Because honestly with them limiting mobs strike through (once they actually find the time to nerf it) it is not as large as you think and with temps still retaining the mechanic you don't have to worry about dying to auto attacks like Plate tanks do right now when using a save that SHOULD be avoiding that 100%.Unlike you nobody else thinks things should be balanced the way they are for F2P either. So not suprising you are doing everything you can to retain bad mechanics design to keep your class just that much better.</blockquote>I think it is extremely pathetic that you are trying to have it both ways in saying that those two are bad and then agreeing with them on changing strikethrough immunity. If you see I think Gungo's position on skrikethrough immunity is delusional. There is one undeniable fact that NO brawlers would be raiding seriously if strikethrough immunity was nerfed. It does not matter how good a player someone is if the mechanics are stacked against brawlers then they won't be raiding. And damm straight I want my class to remain viable. I like eq2 and I like raiding so I am not going to give up this position without a fight.On the subject of F2P most of the player base is bronze and silver or casual non-raider so of course it makes sense to ballance classes for them as well. At low levels and with unmaxed AA plate tanks are light years more powerful than brawlers. Brawlers are the least played tanks and the bruiser is one of the least played classes over all. The most popular class in the entire game is the Berserker. These are the statistics that the devs actually look at when they factor in F2P class ballance. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2mission.flame.org/summary/adventure_classes" target="_blank">http://eq2mission.flame.org/summary...venture_classes</a> The devs are not going to nerf a class that is already unpopular nor are they going to buff up a class that is already seen as over powered flavor of the month.</blockquote>I lost you after you said: Brawler's don't have any advantages besides strikethrough immunity, here let me name a few just at the top of my head...- 3 Death Preventions with fast reuse/NO Drawbacks like every other fighters.- 360 Degree Avoidance, All the other fighters have 180 Degree Avoidance.- High Damage Reduction/Higher then any other fighters.- The ability to use 2 weapons and a Shield, retaining high DPS while tanking.- Very good Snap Aggro.But its ok, because its not a free class it should be better then all of the rest! Just like you said!Sorry... you have no idea what your talking about, Brawlers will be fine without strikethrough immunity.

Yimway

02-29-2012, 02:36 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is one undeniable fact that NO brawlers would be raiding seriously if strikethrough immunity was nerfed. It does not matter how good a player someone is if the mechanics are stacked against brawlers then they won't be raiding.</blockquote>I'm not backpeddling at all, and I do not at all believe that statement.If brawlers retained 50% strikethru avoidance, I feel they'd still be raiding just fine. I do not believe the 100% number is needed, and I don't believe any one should be getting 100% outside of some rare short term buff with a reasonably high reuse.I think all fighters probably deserve some % of strikethru avoidance via different buff packages, i don't believe they should be the same, I do believe brawlers need the highest %.I still vehemently believe strikethru avoidance was a stop-gap decision that should have already been addressed.

Damager

02-29-2012, 03:00 PM

Yimway

02-29-2012, 03:22 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are talking balance between fighters here. So brawlers should never be under Guard in survivability (or any other fighter as they should be equal, or better situationaly by class). Atans guard is less geared then my monk and retains 1600 more mitigation. The percent that that reduces damage increases by level of Mob so yes the brawler would have to retain its superior avoidance thats a given when compairing mit vs avoid. To level the field out in temps if brawlers dropped to 50% strikethrough immune which would put our temps 50% stikethrough also then the equal would be making the Guards stoneskins able to be struckthrough as well or the brawlers temps would have to retain immune to strikethrough..</blockquote>You realize with the curve of mitigation, that 1600 is around 2.5% damage difference?Tanking hasn't been about mitigating damage for some time. Its been more about damage avoidance in my opinion. As we discussed earlier in this thread. Some tanks have lots of tools to avoid predictable damage, some have lots of tools to survive unpredictable damage, and some have no tools at all. In the end, we as a community are choosing the ones that do best against what is unpredictable as that is the hardest to deal with.

Damager

02-29-2012, 03:26 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are talking balance between fighters here. So brawlers should never be under Guard in survivability (or any other fighter as they should be equal, or better situationaly by class). Atans guard is less geared then my monk and retains 1600 more mitigation. The percent that that reduces damage increases by level of Mob so yes the brawler would have to retain its superior avoidance thats a given when compairing mit vs avoid. To level the field out in temps if brawlers dropped to 50% strikethrough immune which would put our temps 50% stikethrough also then the equal would be making the Guards stoneskins able to be struckthrough as well or the brawlers temps would have to retain immune to strikethrough..</blockquote>You realize with the bell curve of mitigation, that 1600 is around 2.5% damage difference?</blockquote>Incorrect, on a level 90 mob its 4.7% and increases in difference as the mob level increases. (I compaired mit and % today standing next to your guard)

Yimway

02-29-2012, 03:33 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>You realize with the bell curve of mitigation, that 1600 is around 2.5% damage difference?</blockquote>Incorrect, on a level 90 mob its 4.7% and increases in difference as the mob level increases. (I compaired mit and % today standing next to your guard)</blockquote>LOL, I stand corrected. My point is it is statisticaly irrelevant when compaired to avoidance differentials.Also, you'll find raid buffed, your further in the curve, and it wont be 4.7, I bet it will be much closer to the number I provided. As you move up the scale the diminishing returns kick in hard.

Damager

02-29-2012, 03:52 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>You realize with the bell curve of mitigation, that 1600 is around 2.5% damage difference?</blockquote>Incorrect, on a level 90 mob its 4.7% and increases in difference as the mob level increases. (I compaired mit and % today standing next to your guard)</blockquote>LOL, I stand corrected. My point is it is statisticaly irrelevant when compaired to avoidance differentials.Also, you'll find raid buffed, your further in the curve, and it wont be 4.7, I bet it will be much closer to the number I provided. As you move up the scale the diminishing returns kick in hard.</blockquote>Hehe yeah snuck into your GH.I do not personaly have the exact number the mitigation and bell curve is effected per level of mob, Im not that geaked out on this lol.

Talathion

02-29-2012, 04:02 PM

What I find funny is after you take in Healer mitigation buffs. (lets say you have a mystic/templar healing you as MT.), you get 2500 ontop of what your mit is, after you add that to a monk/guardian, our mitigation percent is almost exactly the same if not a 0.6-1.7% difference, if you add a third healer (if its needed.) it goes to even less.Diminishing Returns hates plate tanks and is the reason berserker is one of the worst classes in the game, we hit diminishing returns on our DPS/Defenses.

Damager

02-29-2012, 04:08 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I find funny is after you take in Healer mitigation buffs. (lets say you have a mystic/templar healing you as MT.), you get 2500 ontop of what your mit is, after you add that to a monk/guardian, our mitigation percent is almost exactly the same if not a 0.6-1.7% difference, if you add a third healer (if its needed.) it goes to even less.Diminishing Returns hates plate tanks and is the reason berserker is one of the worst classes in the game, we hit diminishing returns on our DPS/Defenses.</blockquote>Please provide the true formula for that up to level 98 mob. Thanks.

Yimway

02-29-2012, 05:56 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please provide the true formula for that up to level 98 mob. Thanks.</blockquote>This isn't too hard to extrabolate playing around with some mentoring and mit buffs. The actual approximation was posted on these forums previously, but I think that post was removed for being too useful.

Damager

02-29-2012, 06:43 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please provide the true formula for that up to level 98 mob. Thanks.</blockquote>This isn't too hard to extrabolate playing around with some mentoring and mit buffs. The actual approximation was posted on these forums previously, but I think that post was removed for being too useful.</blockquote>Yeah there was a couple people who worked on it, but I dont remeber where I seen it /shrug,Blanka has to have it, the guy is a mathamagician.

BChizzle

02-29-2012, 09:19 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please provide the true formula for that up to level 98 mob. Thanks.</blockquote>This isn't too hard to extrabolate playing around with some mentoring and mit buffs. The actual approximation was posted on these forums previously, but I think that post was removed for being too useful.</blockquote>Yeah there was a couple people who worked on it, but I dont remeber where I seen it /shrug,Blanka has to have it, the guy is a mathamagician.</blockquote>Here is what you do, put on some level 80 gear and mentor to 80 see what the tool tip says about your mit vs a lvl 80 then unmentor and see what the exact same mit amount is for a level 90. With that you should be able to figure out the difference per level as far as I know its not on a curve but of course mitigation itself is on a curve, if you like you can also mentor to 85 as well.Also I saw someone say brawlers have more mit this expansion than ever, that is completely incorrect in SF I was pushing 17k mit, almost double what I tank in now.

Corydonn

02-29-2012, 10:59 PM

Brawlers were overpowered in Sentinel's Fate... Now it's just Godlike. I don't think we can get any higher.

BChizzle

03-01-2012, 12:23 AM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers were overpowered in Sentinel's Fate... Now it's just Godlike. I don't think we can get any higher.</blockquote>All tanks were due to the mit bug.

Bruener

03-01-2012, 12:31 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers were overpowered in Sentinel's Fate... Now it's just Godlike. I don't think we can get any higher.</blockquote>All tanks were due to the mit bug.</blockquote>Brawlers were ahead of the game. There wasn't an avoidance bug after all.

Damager

03-01-2012, 02:39 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please provide the true formula for that up to level 98 mob. Thanks.</blockquote>This isn't too hard to extrabolate playing around with some mentoring and mit buffs. The actual approximation was posted on these forums previously, but I think that post was removed for being too useful.</blockquote>Yeah there was a couple people who worked on it, but I dont remeber where I seen it /shrug,Blanka has to have it, the guy is a mathamagician.</blockquote>Here is what you do, put on some level 80 gear and mentor to 80 see what the tool tip says about your mit vs a lvl 80 then unmentor and see what the exact same mit amount is for a level 90. With that you should be able to figure out the difference per level as far as I know its not on a curve but of course mitigation itself is on a curve, if you like you can also mentor to 85 as well.Also I saw someone say brawlers have more mit this expansion than ever, that is completely incorrect in SF I was pushing 17k mit, almost double what I tank in now.</blockquote>Thank ya sir.yeah brawlers lost thousands on mit compared to SF days, Its actually kinda comical to hear someone complain about our mitigation now /shrug

Novusod

03-01-2012, 06:20 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is one undeniable fact that NO brawlers would be raiding seriously if strikethrough immunity was nerfed. It does not matter how good a player someone is if the mechanics are stacked against brawlers then they won't be raiding.</blockquote>I'm not backpeddling at all, and I do not at all believe that statement.If brawlers retained 50% strikethru avoidance, I feel they'd still be raiding just fine. I do not believe the 100% number is needed, and I don't believe any one should be getting 100% outside of some rare short term buff with a reasonably high reuse.I think all fighters probably deserve some % of strikethru avoidance via different buff packages, i don't believe they should be the same, I do believe brawlers need the highest %.I still vehemently believe strikethru avoidance was a stop-gap decision that should have already been addressed.</blockquote>You are 100% wrong on both counts then. Strikethrough immunity was not a stop gap measure because the difference between brawler tanks and plate tanks in RoK/TSO wasn't a gap, it was a mile wide chasm. This is no gap we are talking about here but the difference between brawlers and plate tanks was like the grand canyon of horribly broken class ballance. Fixing the brawler class at the end of TSO required more than stop gap measures. Fixing a completely broken class required the devs to go big in rewriting the avoidance mechanic for brawlers. Adding strikethrough immunity to brawler defensive stance was no less than a total game changer. Strikethrough immunity gave brawlers the ability to tank a mob for more than just the ten seconds that parry was up. Brawlers were a real tank now and not the temp tank that held the mob with parry running while the real MT was being rezzed.You want to know what a stop gap is well I will tell you what a stop gap is. It is a those silly little ten second parries they gave us as an excuse for not fixing brawlers sooner than they did. Those are stop gaps and they didn't make brawlers viable raid tanks. They gave brawlers a little taste of survivability without fixing the problem that brawlers could not tank raid mobs long term like plate wearers could. Brawlers never needed temperory survivability they needed the ability to tank a raid mob over a period of time without going SPLAT. It took giving brawlers 100% stikethrough immunity to bring brawler tanks up to par with plat tanks.Strikethrough immunity is a brawlers most class defining feature now. I mean that on the most base level here. Working avoidance that doesn't get wrecked by strikethrough is our bread and butter. It is like part of the unwritten brawler pact 'In strikethrough immunity we trust.' Saying brawlers shouldn't have strikethrough immunity is like me saying your class shouldn't be allowed to wear plate armor anymore. It took six years for brawlers to get their due ballance so we are not going to give it up with out a fight.If you think I am ever going to be content with living for ten seconds then you are out of your mind. Don't try to placate me with your buff packages and temp survivability. I have heard this whole BS spiel before with substituting stop gaps as an excuse to rob my class of its viability. Well those little stop gaps didn't work then and it won't work now. What makes you think if the avoidance rules were put back to RoK/TSO that there would be a different outcome and brawlers wouldn't just be broken again. It was barely two short years ago so I have not forgotten how it was when brawlers had no strikethrough immunity and were completely broken. Never again do you hear me. Never again will I put up with dying the instant my temps drop.

Boli32

03-01-2012, 06:57 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is one undeniable fact that NO brawlers would be raiding seriously if strikethrough immunity was nerfed. It does not matter how good a player someone is if the mechanics are stacked against brawlers then they won't be raiding.</blockquote>I'm not backpeddling at all, and I do not at all believe that statement.If brawlers retained 50% strikethru avoidance, I feel they'd still be raiding just fine. I do not believe the 100% number is needed, and I don't believe any one should be getting 100% outside of some rare short term buff with a reasonably high reuse.I think all fighters probably deserve some % of strikethru avoidance via different buff packages, i don't believe they should be the same, I do believe brawlers need the highest %.I still vehemently believe strikethru avoidance was a stop-gap decision that should have already been addressed.</blockquote>You are 100% wrong on both counts then. Strikethrough immunity was not a stop gap measure because the difference between brawler tanks and plate tanks in RoK/TSO wasn't a gap, it was a mile wide chasm. This is no gap we are talking about here but the difference between brawlers and plate tanks was like the grand canyon of horribly broken class ballance. Fixing the brawler class at the end of TSO required more than stop gap measures. Fixing a completely broken class required the devs to go big in rewriting the avoidance mechanic for brawlers. Adding strikethrough immunity to brawler defensive stance was no less than a total game changer. Strikethrough immunity gave brawlers the ability to tank a mob for more than just the ten seconds that parry was up. Brawlers were a real tank now and not the temp tank that held the mob with parry running while the real MT was being rezzed.You want to know what a stop gap is well I will tell you what a stop gap is. It is a those silly little ten second parries they gave us as an excuse for not fixing brawlers sooner than they did. Those are stop gaps and they didn't make brawlers viable raid tanks. They gave brawlers a little taste of survivability without fixing the problem that brawlers could not tank raid mobs long term like plate wearers could. Brawlers never needed temperory survivability they needed the ability to tank a raid mob over a period of time without going SPLAT. It took giving brawlers 100% stikethrough immunity to bring brawler tanks up to par with plat tanks.Strikethrough immunity is a brawlers most class defining feature now. I mean that on the most base level here. Working avoidance that doesn't get wrecked by strikethrough is our bread and butter. It is like part of the unwritten brawler pact 'In strikethrough immunity we trust.' Saying brawlers shouldn't have strikethrough immunity is like me saying your class shouldn't be allowed to wear plate armor anymore. It took six years for brawlers to get their due ballance so we are not going to give it up with out a fight.If you think I am ever going to be content with living for ten seconds then you are out of your mind. Don't try to placate me with your buff packages and temp survivability. I have heard this whole BS spiel before with substituting stop gaps as an excuse to rob my class of its viability. Well those little stop gaps didn't work then and it won't work now. What makes you think if the avoidance rules were put back to RoK/TSO that there would be a different outcome and brawlers wouldn't just be broken again. It was barely two short years ago so I have not forgotten how it was when brawlers had no strikethrough immunity and were completely broken. Never again do you hear me. Never again will I put up with dying the instant my temps drop.</blockquote>Except you still have all those "useless" 10s immunity buttons... funny that they come in handy now. Physcial AoE incoming? Pop one. Add that to your short recast for protection against purely magical attacks and you have a button to press for every Incoming AoE.And the plate tanks who are not immune to strikethrough their "immunity" buttons don't actually function unless they are actually stoneskins. 100% chance to parry/riposite/block roughly means - at best a slightly better chance not to die from a random attack and by no means any sort of immunity.And then there are the Stoneskins... with strikethough mechanics you are far more likely to proc off stoneskins from auto-attack / multi-attack as you are hit more; so single charge stoneskins are useless.There are a few "quick fixes" but what this game needs (and needed when I quit) was a complete revamp over all fighters something which the development team are no longer willing to do due to the age of the game.

Novusod

03-01-2012, 08:19 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except you still have all those "useless" 10s immunity buttons... funny that they come in handy now. Physcial AoE incoming? Pop one. Add that to your short recast for protection against purely magical attacks and you have a button to press for every Incoming AoE.And the plate tanks who are not immune to strikethrough their "immunity" buttons don't actually function unless they are actually stoneskins. 100% chance to parry/riposite/block roughly means - at best a slightly better chance not to die from a random attack and by no means any sort of immunity.And then there are the Stoneskins... with strikethough mechanics you are far more likely to proc off stoneskins from auto-attack / multi-attack as you are hit more; so single charge stoneskins are useless.There are a few "quick fixes" but what this game needs (and needed when I quit) was a complete revamp over all fighters something which the development team are no longer willing to do due to the age of the game.</blockquote>Are you playing the same game that I am? I think not. What mob has a Physcial AoE that one shots any tank? I have pulled and tanked every mob that is currently being raided. No boss uses a physcial AoE that is worth mentioning. All the AoEs are magic based which means those 10s immunity buttons do nothing. The only thing those 10s parry are worth is stopping a streaky RNG.The mechanic we are debating is Strikethrough avoidance tanking VS mitigation tanking in regards to mob autoattack damage. We are talking about the very basics and core of tanking here. Before brawlers were made strikethrough immune brawlers could not keep with plate tanks. Brawler that are not strikethrough immune needed to have a temp parry up or they would get one shotted by hard hitting autoattacks. Plate tanks never had to worry about that kind of nonsence. Removing strikethrough immunity would completely break brawler tanking as we would not even be able to hold the mob with out a parry running. That is what this all about.

Rageincarnate

03-01-2012, 10:32 AM

i'd be interested to see actual numbers instead of nuh uhh's.I feel like i'm reading the monty python skit where there were debating whether or not disagreeing counted as an arguement.

Bruener

03-01-2012, 11:08 AM

Well its not hard to see on parses Brawlers taking close to the same size physical hits right now, so the gap that was there before when they added strike through immunity as a band aide fix is no longer there. There is a ton more damage reduction going around to cover the gap now. And I am sorry, not a single Brawler specs for +mitigation which no doubt would probably put them equal with Plate tanks (they don't do this because they know it is unneeded) however there is nothing a Plate tank can adorn or spec to even come close to closing the avoidance gap. Maybe we need an adornment that gives us strike through immunity than, or adornments for plate tanks that add massive amount of riposte.Remove strike through immunity and sure Brawlers would get hit slightly more often. But than they would just proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds if they actually had a bad roll or if a MA/proc was incoming on that hit.As a side note we can go over parses of EoW HM and how hard it is for SOE to balance content when it takes AT LEAST double the healing to keep a plate tank up over a Brawler.MAs/Flurries/Procs proc based on being hit. What seems easy for a Brawler with a solo healer to defeat is harder with a Plate tank with 2 healers. Yeah, real balanced.Novusod really you keep bringing up the past and why they added strike through immunity. We all already know that and understand it. However, Brawlers have been given a ton since than which you simply don't acknowledge.

Rageincarnate

03-01-2012, 11:42 AM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please provide the true formula for that up to level 98 mob. Thanks.</blockquote>This isn't too hard to extrabolate playing around with some mentoring and mit buffs. The actual approximation was posted on these forums previously, but I think that post was removed for being too useful.</blockquote>Yeah there was a couple people who worked on it, but I dont remeber where I seen it /shrug,Blanka has to have it, the guy is a mathamagician.</blockquote>Here is what you do, put on some level 80 gear and mentor to 80 see what the tool tip says about your mit vs a lvl 80 then unmentor and see what the exact same mit amount is for a level 90. With that you should be able to figure out the difference per level as far as I know its not on a curve but of course mitigation itself is on a curve, if you like you can also mentor to 85 as well.Also I saw someone say brawlers have more mit this expansion than ever, that is completely incorrect in SF I was pushing 17k mit, almost double what I tank in now.</blockquote>Thank ya sir.yeah brawlers lost thousands on mit compared to SF days, Its actually kinda comical to hear someone complain about our mitigation now /shrug</blockquote>That i can actually comment on with actual numbers. 13k mit self buffed on my sk, with gear to swap out to 15k. (pre-mit "bug")Now my sk is at 8.9k mit. Feel free to rip me a new one. <a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_detail/450972469083" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_...il/450972469083</a>

Talathion

03-01-2012, 11:56 AM

Would need non-percent healing abilities x3 or even x5 to even begin to compare with what brawlers have now.Or, to compare to strikethrough immunity, Defensive Stances of non-brawlers should be "Reduces Multi-Attack/Flurry Damage by half." and instead of physical mitigation, it should add damage reduction so we arn't hugging the cap so much.So instead of improving physicial mitigation, it should improve damage reduction by 15%, this includes aa's that increase it, So tactical wisdom/veteran's shielding should add additional damage reduction.TL;DR:Add Critical Healing to non-percent based Heals/Wards.Change Mitigation increase in plate fighter's defensive stance to Damage Reduction.Add "Decreases Flurry and Multi-Attack Damage the Caster Recieves by 50%." (to rival strikethrough immunity.)(additionally, remove "in combat only" from SKs Deathsave, add Strikethrough Immunity to Furor, give paladin's holy ground snap aggro again for every tick.)This would GREATLY lesson the gap between tanks and make plate tanks more viable for Greater HM raiding.

Boli32

03-01-2012, 01:11 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except you still have all those "useless" 10s immunity buttons... funny that they come in handy now. Physcial AoE incoming? Pop one. Add that to your short recast for protection against purely magical attacks and you have a button to press for every Incoming AoE.And the plate tanks who are not immune to strikethrough their "immunity" buttons don't actually function unless they are actually stoneskins. 100% chance to parry/riposite/block roughly means - at best a slightly better chance not to die from a random attack and by no means any sort of immunity.And then there are the Stoneskins... with strikethough mechanics you are far more likely to proc off stoneskins from auto-attack / multi-attack as you are hit more; so single charge stoneskins are useless.There are a few "quick fixes" but what this game needs (and needed when I quit) was a complete revamp over all fighters something which the development team are no longer willing to do due to the age of the game.</blockquote>Are you playing the same game that I am? I think not. What mob has a Physcial AoE that one shots any tank? I have pulled and tanked every mob that is currently being raided. No boss uses a physcial AoE that is worth mentioning. All the AoEs are magic based which means those 10s immunity buttons do nothing. The only thing those 10s parry are worth is stopping a streaky RNG.The mechanic we are debating is Strikethrough avoidance tanking VS mitigation tanking in regards to mob autoattack damage. We are talking about the very basics and core of tanking here. Before brawlers were made strikethrough immune brawlers could not keep with plate tanks. Brawler that are not strikethrough immune needed to have a temp parry up or they would get one shotted by hard hitting autoattacks. Plate tanks never had to worry about that kind of nonsence. Removing strikethrough immunity would completely break brawler tanking as we would not even be able to hold the mob with out a parry running. That is what this all about.</blockquote>No I am not actually.. I quit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - but the mechanics have remains the same which are as flawed now as when I left and it galls me that brawlers who never raided on a plate tank still think fighters are balanced when people who have played both say they are obviously not.BUT my point still remains valid - those so-called useless physical immunities WORK on a brawler; they are less effective on plate tanks vs the exact amount of strikethough the mob has (mob has 25% strikethrough the 100% parry buttons only work 75% of the time).The system as it stands is brawlers avoidance means when they *do* get hit Unrivaled Focus will be up to proc so they do not feel Multi Attacks so much; so with a large avoidance, working physical temps and reduction in multiattack damage a brawler only needs to have their mitigation reach within 5% of a plate tanks to take less damage from multiattacks and generally be hit a *lot* less.Yes there will be times UF will not be up; but there are far more times where a plate tank died from autoattack damage than a brawler... and this isn;t even including the temp buffs, magical stoneskins/wards and death prevents.Dieing to autoattack - happens to more plate tank than you might think; at least it did with increasing regularity when I left. Randomly dieing through no-one else fault is not fun.

Damager

03-01-2012, 01:44 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dieing to autoattack - happens to more plate tank than you might think; at least it did with increasing regularity when I left. Randomly dieing through no-one else fault is not fun.</blockquote>Correct, It is not fun that is why brawlers who had that happen on a regular basis even when our parry was up are fighting this tooth and nail. We got fixed. Have them fix your class. How nerfing brawlers will help a plate is beyond me your still gonna get one shot if brawlers arent immune only difference is we will be too again (And on a much higher basis than any plate has ever experienced). I guess we could sit here and crunch numbers all day but those mechanics where provin in ROK so whats the point,

Damager

03-01-2012, 01:54 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>That i can actually comment on with actual numbers. 13k mit self buffed on my sk, with gear to swap out to 15k. (pre-mit "bug")Now my sk is at 8.9k mit. Feel free to rip me a new one. </blockquote>Close to my brawler that was equally geared at the time (13k -15k).Your runnin 1.3k-1.5k less mit than a current guard sir which is another plate tank. I would be focusing on bringing that up and fixing reactives/temps to match current content if I played that class.The guard is a viable tank, other plates should be looking at them for fixing their own class, not trying to compare to an avoidance tank who has completely different mechanics.

Bruener

03-01-2012, 02:08 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dieing to autoattack - happens to more plate tank than you might think; at least it did with increasing regularity when I left. Randomly dieing through no-one else fault is not fun.</blockquote>Correct, It is not fun that is why brawlers who had that happen on a regular basis even when our parry was up are fighting this tooth and nail. We got fixed. Have them fix your class. How nerfing brawlers will help a plate is beyond me your still gonna get one shot if brawlers arent immune only difference is we will be too again (And on a much higher basis than any plate has ever experienced). I guess we could sit here and crunch numbers all day but those mechanics where provin in ROK so whats the point,</blockquote>Because than SOE can be a lot more conservative with strike through when releasing content. Right now it is released and completely imbalanced. Over and over since DoV you get mobs that are easily tanked by Brawlers with a lot less healing requirements and the same mobs extremely difficult as a Plate tank with a lot more healing requirements. How can you even begin to say this is balanced?It also allows SOE to use the tool like it was meant to be used. To limit ALL FIGHTER AVOIDANCE.Not sure why you can't realize how terrible it is currently having the big band aide fix that is no longer needed.If they aren't going to fix what needs to be fixed than we need to talk about some serious out of the box advantages to give Plate tanks. An example would be with mobs all going to have a % chance to crit SOE could make Plate tanks immune to crits.......imagine how that would work out for balance. That is the type of situation that strike through and strike through immunity causes.

Talathion

03-01-2012, 02:11 PM

Ugh, I wish the mechanics were different, however SOE will not change mechanics to make plate tanks better, therefore more drastic measures need to be taken in order.A good start would be adding critical healing back to non-percent based healing.- Reducing autoattack damage done to Plate Tanks. (Specifically MA/Flurrys.)- Improving the healing abilitys of plate tanks (Guardians are a little ahead of the other plate tanks atm, so this will make everyone more balanced.)- Replacing Mitigation increase with damage reduction on defensive stance, making it more viable for plate tanks.This change will make plate tanks get a base 15% damage reduction in defensive stance, lowering the damage MAs/Flurrys do to the Plate tank will make the damage profile alot smaller, so we can focus more on preventing irregular damage, and making heals critical again will make up for losing the avoidance that brawlers achieve.ANOTHER CHANGE: Changing the way shield works so shields no longer add avoidance, but simply lower the damage that you take, plate tanks should have little to no avoidance anyways.

Boli32

03-01-2012, 02:19 PM

Damager

03-01-2012, 02:20 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dieing to autoattack - happens to more plate tank than you might think; at least it did with increasing regularity when I left. Randomly dieing through no-one else fault is not fun.</blockquote>Correct, It is not fun that is why brawlers who had that happen on a regular basis even when our parry was up are fighting this tooth and nail. We got fixed. Have them fix your class. How nerfing brawlers will help a plate is beyond me your still gonna get one shot if brawlers arent immune only difference is we will be too again (And on a much higher basis than any plate has ever experienced). I guess we could sit here and crunch numbers all day but those mechanics where provin in ROK so whats the point,</blockquote>Because than SOE can be a lot more conservative with strike through when releasing content. Right now it is released and completely imbalanced.It also allows SOE to use the tool like it was meant to be used. To limit ALL FIGHTER AVOIDANCE.Not sure why you can't realize how terrible it is currently having the big band aide fix that is no longer needed.</blockquote>You are talking apples and Oranges. Removing strikethrough immunity from brawlers by no means removes strikethrough from the mobs. Plates will have zero effect and be where they are now.You are ASSUMING they will change the content and lower the strikethrough on mobs if that happend. Which easily puts guard as the OP MT alone.You are also bring up balancing avoidance on fighters when 2 of the 6 are avoidance tanks and their mechanics are completely different /shrug

Talathion

03-01-2012, 02:25 PM

I don't want brawlers nerfed one bit, I just want the autoattack damage to be reduced/prevented as much as you guys can avoid it, to be honest, plate tanks should have little to no avoidance and be more like walls of steel, mitigating all the damage they can.However atm, Brawlers are able to just avoid so much damage and then when they are finally hit, reduce to to MORE Then a plate tank can soak up.These mechanics set are simply not fair, and you simply could not understand unless you've played a plate tank.The only way to throw in balance is to reduce the damage done by autoattacks to plate tanks.

Damager

03-01-2012, 02:26 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dieing to autoattack - happens to more plate tank than you might think; at least it did with increasing regularity when I left. Randomly dieing through no-one else fault is not fun.</blockquote>Correct, It is not fun that is why brawlers who had that happen on a regular basis even when our parry was up are fighting this tooth and nail. We got fixed. Have them fix your class. How nerfing brawlers will help a plate is beyond me your still gonna get one shot if brawlers arent immune only difference is we will be too again (And on a much higher basis than any plate has ever experienced). I guess we could sit here and crunch numbers all day but those mechanics where provin in ROK so whats the point,</blockquote>I never said to nerf brawlers... I am only merely stating things are *not* balanced and haven't been so for a long time however *some* people have adamantly kept to the opinion that Monks and brusiers are fine and balanced with the other tanks.</blockquote>IMHO Guard, Bruiser, Monk are really close depending on the situation. Guard could minimaly/easily be tweaked. This means 3 of 6 fighters right now compete for MT. Really comes down to player at thispoint.SK, Pally, Zerk everyone agrees needs some lovin. Why extreme mechanic changes are warented is beyond me. Just fix the last 3.

Damager

03-01-2012, 02:35 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want brawlers nerfed one bit, I just want the autoattack damage to be reduced/prevented as much as you guys can avoid it, to be honest, plate tanks should have little to no avoidance and be more like walls of steel, mitigating all the damage they can.However atm, Brawlers are able to just avoid so much damage and then when they are finally hit, reduce to to MORE Then a plate tank can soak up.These mechanics set are simply not fair, and you simply could not understand unless you've played a plate tank.The only way to throw in balance is to reduce the damage done by autoattacks to plate tanks.</blockquote>removing strikethu immunity from brawler is a direct nerf of the class which is why you get sooo much grief from brawlers. Dont think we dont understand as we went YEARS getting oneshotted in instances even, even while our temps where up. We do.Look at your class defining abilities and how they can be improved and push it. That is the most constructive thing possible and you would actually have brawlers helping your situation.

Talathion

03-01-2012, 02:41 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want brawlers nerfed one bit, I just want the autoattack damage to be reduced/prevented as much as you guys can avoid it, to be honest, plate tanks should have little to no avoidance and be more like walls of steel, mitigating all the damage they can.However atm, Brawlers are able to just avoid so much damage and then when they are finally hit, reduce to to MORE Then a plate tank can soak up.These mechanics set are simply not fair, and you simply could not understand unless you've played a plate tank.The only way to throw in balance is to reduce the damage done by autoattacks to plate tanks.</blockquote>removing strikethu immunity from brawler is a direct nerf of the class which is why you get sooo much grief from brawlers. Dont think we dont understand as we went YEARS getting oneshotted in instances even, even while our temps where up. We do.Look at your class defining abilities and how they can be improved and push it. That is the most constructive thing possible and you would actually have brawlers helping your situation.</blockquote>A bit overzealous? I did not say a single thing in that one post about nerfing strikethrough immunity.I did mention it before, however I changed my idea to improve plate tanks defenses against auto-attacks instead.16 Pages in can change opinions is all i'm sayin'.Also, the past doesn't matter, what matters is the future and the now, otherwise you would know zerkers have had it bad too for awile.

Damager

03-01-2012, 02:45 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want brawlers nerfed one bit, I just want the autoattack damage to be reduced/prevented as much as you guys can avoid it, to be honest, plate tanks should have little to no avoidance and be more like walls of steel, mitigating all the damage they can.However atm, Brawlers are able to just avoid so much damage and then when they are finally hit, reduce to to MORE Then a plate tank can soak up.These mechanics set are simply not fair, and you simply could not understand unless you've played a plate tank.The only way to throw in balance is to reduce the damage done by autoattacks to plate tanks.</blockquote>removing strikethu immunity from brawler is a direct nerf of the class which is why you get sooo much grief from brawlers. Dont think we dont understand as we went YEARS getting oneshotted in instances even, even while our temps where up. We do.Look at your class defining abilities and how they can be improved and push it. That is the most constructive thing possible and you would actually have brawlers helping your situation.</blockquote>A bit overzealous? I did not say a single thing in that one post about nerfing strikethrough immunity.I did mention it before, however I changed my idea to improve plate tanks defenses against auto-attacks instead.</blockquote>Cool, we are on the same page then.

Damager

03-01-2012, 02:50 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd be interested to see actual numbers instead of nuh uhh's.I feel like i'm reading the monty python skit where there were debating whether or not disagreeing counted as an arguement.</blockquote>Atan did run without strikethrough immunity, He is researching it further. He did say 100% removal of strikethrough immunity would not be feasible or in his words "VERY Rough" for a brawler to MT progression, Keep in mind he hasnt hit HM sullons at all yet and came to this conclusion..

Bruener

03-01-2012, 03:01 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd be interested to see actual numbers instead of nuh uhh's.I feel like i'm reading the monty python skit where there were debating whether or not disagreeing counted as an arguement.</blockquote>Atan did run without strikethrough immunity, He is researching it further. He did say 100% removal of strikethrough immunity would not be feasible or in his words "VERY Rough" for a brawler to MT progression, Keep in mind he hasnt hit HM sullons at all yet and came to this conclusion..</blockquote>Actually he did not post anything or run any numbers at all, but was hypothesizing on it.Your fear of being hit too much and dying because of it is exactly why it is imbalanced for Plate tanks currently. They can't balance the mechanic. If they remove strike through immunity than they can get a better under standing on how all the new mechanics of MAs, Flurries, and Procs affect all tanks instead of 2 getting this huge free pass. Content too hard, they nerf it like is the current process, instead of content too hard for Plate tanks get a Brawler to tank it to progress.If you are so against this change than I am sure that you wouldn't mind if they put strike through immunity on ALL tanks defensive stance, right?

Damager

03-01-2012, 03:08 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd be interested to see actual numbers instead of nuh uhh's.I feel like i'm reading the monty python skit where there were debating whether or not disagreeing counted as an arguement.</blockquote>Atan did run without strikethrough immunity, He is researching it further. He did say 100% removal of strikethrough immunity would not be feasible or in his words "VERY Rough" for a brawler to MT progression, Keep in mind he hasnt hit HM sullons at all yet and came to this conclusion..</blockquote>Actually he did not post anything or run any numbers at all, but was hypothesizing on it.Your fear of being hit too much and dying because of it is exactly why it is imbalanced for Plate tanks currently. They can't balance the mechanic. If they remove strike through immunity than they can get a better under standing on how all the new mechanics of MAs, Flurries, and Procs affect all tanks instead of 2 getting this huge free pass. Content too hard, they nerf it like is the current process, instead of content too hard for Plate tanks get a Brawler to tank it to progress.If you are so against this change than I am sure that you wouldn't mind if they put strike through immunity on ALL tanks defensive stance, right?</blockquote>You do realize I talk to him in game and he ran without it on Tuesday nights raid ROFL! Nice try though.I could care less if its in all fighters defensive stance, really erks me to see plates tanking in offensive this isnt even possible on monk in any raid. Bralwers have pretty much one stance "Defensive" or die trying.