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View Full Version : Bring back the Star rating system


Tielk
01-15-2012, 04:06 PM
<p>I hope they bring back the star rating system.  The Like or No like option does not allow for good feedback on your dungeon.  For instance a dungeon my be really creative on the design part but not that great with the mobs.  For example .. I've done one that seemed to have a Monty Python theme but then IMO was missing some key characters and lines from some of the movies / TV shows.  Also this dungeon only had about half of the mobs in there that went along with the theme ... the other half were just random names that looked like the person just made them up.  But I did think that the mobs and placement were good in this dungeon .. but since I didnt like the half an half I had to give it a bad review, which wasn't totally accurate.</p><p>Now granted the 5 star system may have some weaknesses I'm not aware of.   One thing I've heard of .. and this goes along with the house rating system ... that some people/guilds only rate their own dungeons good and rate anyone elses bad no matter how well the dungeon is ... but IMO the current rating system still has that flaw.  </p><p>All you can hope for in that case is that people will give honest feedback instead of following the orders of others like sheep.</p>

Iskandar
01-15-2012, 06:59 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Now granted the 5 star system may have some weaknesses I'm not aware of.   One thing I've heard of .. and this goes along with the house rating system ... that some people/guilds only rate their own dungeons good and rate anyone elses bad no matter how well the dungeon is ... but IMO the current rating system still has that flaw.   <p>All you can hope for in that case is that people will give honest feedback instead of following the orders of others like sheep.</p></blockquote><p>The big problem with the star system was that it was so <strong>easily</strong> manipulated. A player with multiple accounts or a group of friends/guildies could easily push a highly rated home/dungeon down with a slew of 1/2-star ratings, while pushing even a simple empty room up with a slew of 5-star ratings. Some people did it simply to be mischeivious or spiteful, some did it to ensure that they or their friends/guildies received the rewards and recognition -- and with the "free tokens" from dungeons, that's a good incentive to skew the results.</p><p>It just wasn't a very fair or unbiased system, and relying on "honest feedback" is why it was removed in favor of the like/unlike system. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Unfortunately, the like/unlike system is a little <strong>TOO</strong> simple... it doesn't really tell us anything about the dungeon, and is honestly little better than just picking one at random.</p><p>In my opinion, we don't need stars <strong>we just need more information</strong> so that we can find the dungeons that WE would like.</p><p>I think that the voting system needs to have more categories so a wider range of feedback can be presented. I also think a mail system needs to be integrated into the voting window so that suggestions and comments can be sent directly to the owner of the dungeon -- I've actually received some very handy feedback from a couple of people who went to the trouble of going to a mailbox after running one of my dungeons, so I'd bet that such a feature would be used.</p><p>More than that, I think the Dungeon Maker interface needs to display more information about the dungeons beyond the ratings... how many unique accounts have run the instance? how many times has it been run overall? what is the average size of the groups that ran it? what is the max token reward? what is the average token reward? And the creator should have an option to flag the dungeon as solo, small group, mid-sized group, or full group when they publish.</p><p>With that information at hand, you could look at a dungeon and say, "hmmm, this "Isk's Place" dungeon has been run by 192 unique accounts... it's been run 325 times, with an average payout of 30 tokens from a max of 100... it's flagged as "mid-sized group" but most people seem to run it solo... I bet if I got a buddy or two we could pwn this place for 100 tokens!" You could make an informed decision -- and having more voting results on top of this basic info would just make it even more so! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Without that information, we look at a dungeon and say, "hmmm, this "Isk's Place" dungeon has 4 likes and a couple of awards... I wonder if it's any good?" And an hour later, after being hammered repeatedly, you leave with no tokens while cursing about what a waste of time the entire Dungeon maker system is. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I also think that creators should have a way to better categorize the "theme" or "style" of their dungeons with some basic keywords when they publish them, and players should have a way to search or sort by those categories. Things such as "token farm" or "holiday theme" or "just for fun" or "decorative" etc. Some days I just want some fast easy tokens, and a token farm is perfect for that... but some days I want to see something creative and stylish, something that someone put a fair amount of work into.</p><p>At the moment, most of the top ten on Crushbone consists of "token farms" -- and while they're great to run for some fast easy tokens, they're keeping a lot of very creative dungeons from even being seen simply because they're all lumped into the same pool. That's not much encouragement for someone who just wants to make something fun or attractive -- that's a lot of time and work just to be buried on page 2 or 3 or 10! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>The foundation that's here is good, it's solid... but what's being built upon it needs to be expanded on and polished up a bit, imho, to make it into something that we can <strong>ALL</strong> use.</p><p>And for the record, I have a typical no-frills token farm dungeon (default layout, no extra decorations, default mob names, stacks of three, no modifiers, no boss mobs, no dialogue, just an evenly spaced and easy-to-solo token farm) -- it's earned me quite a few tokens so far, has won several awards, and is currently listed in the top ten. I also have a ridiculously easy and very cutesy "just for fun" dungeon that has 0 likes and earned a total of 4 tokens (it was finished at least twice)... and a very highly decorated and challenging dungeon designed for mid-sized groups that has 0 likes and 0 tokens. They're both buried on page 8 or 10 or so. I made each on a different account specifically so I could compare and contrast what the playerbase was interested in, and my upcoming works are adjusted accordingly.</p><p>I <strong>WILL</strong> be the Ewe Bol of Dungeon Maker!! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></p>

Rainmare
01-15-2012, 10:58 PM
<p>and the problem with the 'Like' system is that it's just as easily manipulated but only by the 'large group of friends/guild'.</p><p>the system as it is now, basially says: 'unless you are in a large guild/willing to buy likes...you might as well not bother to make one, as no one will know it exists.'</p><p>in the star system, having a handful of friends to give your dungeon a good rating (by handful I mean 4-6 people) could usually put you on the first or second page, which lets face facts, are really the only pages that get ANY visibility. Could the large guilds or big groups knock you down? sure they could. but you were at least VISIBLE TO THE SERVER for a little while. People might actually run your dungeon before that.</p><p>this system, if you are not in a big guild, if you aren't willing to spend platinum to pay people to like your dungeon, your dungeon does not exist as far as the playerbase goes. becuase 6 'likes' doesn't do anything or even come close to the people with 20/44/15/25/32 ect for thier guildmates liking it to get thier friend in the HoF for a trophy. your dungeon won't even make page 3 in some cases.</p><p>and if it's not on page 1 or page 2, it doesn't exist.</p><p>and it's the same way with housing. people in small guilds/non guilded can't compete. and they got no tools, no methods, to level that playing field or to become competetive with the 'like' system.</p>

Gladiolus
01-16-2012, 12:16 AM
<p>The Like or nothing is fine for houses but they should have kept and even expanded the star system for dungeons. However, I can't see them changing anything back, that's not their way.</p>

Deveryn
01-16-2012, 12:29 AM
<p><cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Like or nothing is fine for houses but they should have kept and even expanded the star system for dungeons. However, I can't see them changing anything back, that's not their way.</p></blockquote><p>Neither system was great, but I definitely prefer the star system. Like or nothing is horrible for the house system. Some kind of detailed feedback is important when dealing with creative works. At least tell us how many unique accounts visited and rate based on that. This current system is more dishonest and unfair than the star system was because you can't give a bad vote to a house that legitimately deserves it.</p><p>I did fairly well under the star system. I only had a handful of people look at my one house, but then I only ever had 40-something more after that. I held a top 5 spot in creativity, but someone always managed to publish and blow past me. Now my house isn't even showing likes half the time for some strange reason.</p><p>Because of this, I'm just taking my sweet time making a dungeon. Maybe I'll speed things up when the rating system improves, but I feel like there's little point, when people can just go to some mindless 300 token farm.</p>

Judist
01-16-2012, 12:30 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Now granted the 5 star system may have some weaknesses I'm not aware of.</blockquote><p>A player with a couple accounts and a little spare time could ruin a LOT of dungeons with 0/0 ratings. During the "star system" I saw several dungeons (including mine) bumped back a few pages within a <strong>very</strong> short period of time because someone wanted their dungeon on the top page. Designers without a lot of friends or initial ratings were getting hammered more often than I like to think.</p><p>Both systems are flawed, however that star system gave malicious players too much power. It was a matter of choosing the lesser of 2 evils.</p>

ZullieZevize
01-16-2012, 01:40 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the system as it is now, basially says: 'unless you are in a large guild/willing to buy likes...you might as well not bother to make one, as no one will know it exists.'</p></blockquote><p>Not true for the most part.</p><p>I have 3 Hall of Fame dungeons on the Freeport server: Fun Solo 164, 200 tokens in 1 Hour and 400 Tokens- Bring a friend to win. (there is an updated fixed version called Fixed 400 tokens, that is slowly climbing the ranks)</p><p>Im not in a big guild, and I never paid for one of my votes. I dont spam for votes non stop, or annoy people with endless pleading for a vote.</p><p>I make dungeons I like to hunt in.  Sometimes I solo, other times I might give a shout out, to run one as a group.</p>

Rainmare
01-16-2012, 03:56 AM
<p>then you are the exception, not the rule. I know on my server that's not the case. all the top dungeons are owned by players in large guilds. and all of them have 20+ likes.</p><p>or maybe it could be that simple as the naming convention. maybe instead of calling my dungeons something creative, if I just called them 'X amount token grind' they might be more visible....nope, cause if I did that I'd still start off with no likes and thus be on page 5 and not visible to my server. cause I tried that one too.</p>

Judist
01-16-2012, 05:41 AM
<p>Your right, designers with heavy guild/friend support have it easy.</p><p>However on Oasis you can make the <strong>top page</strong> in 3 of the 4 layouts with only 2 likes. Lair of Scale needs 3 likes to hit page one. Heck the 3rd place dungeon in Chardok only has 2 likes. Either way, a consistent 4 or 5 likes will keep you in the spotlight and start racking awards, and you don't need a guild or friends to manage that.</p>

Andemon
01-16-2012, 06:33 AM
<p>I went down from ~50 tokens per day to grand total of zero after this Like-system was added.</p><p>Nobody has ran my dungeons since then. They got some rans with the old system...probably because the average rating was quite good. Now, it seems like nobody's running any dungeons besides the ones that are already on the top of the list. I checked the newly published dungeons...pages after pages of 0 likes.</p><p>Running those dungeons takes time. I'm not surprised that most players don't bother with the ones that have low likes...even new ones. This rating system does not work.</p>

Sapperlight
01-16-2012, 12:50 PM
<p>I also dislike the binary rating system that we currently have, for the reasons mentioned in this thread.  Even with a 3-option system we could get more fidelity and be able to give legitimate feedback to the dungeon author.  The choices could be "Like", "Dislike", or "Neutral"; or, because SOE seems to buy into the no-negative feedback of this generation, it could be "Like", "Like More", and "Like Most".  Either way, it gives the designer some feedback as to whether he reached the mark with Style or Action or if improvements are necessary.</p><p>I agree that there needs to be a description box in which we can include key things such as solo/group, difficulty, or intended purpose (token grind or theme).</p><p>I believe that the abuses in the system are for the most part gone, if only due to the fact that the large guilds have gotten their dungeons in the HoF and are no longer interested in the function.  As someone mentioned, two or three likes now gets you on the frontpage for recent actions.  Four likes seems to get you in the top five and even a chance at number 1.</p><p>If you want to evaluate the rating system (and overall success of DM), look at the dungeons that have made the HoF.  On my server, less than 20% are themed.  The vast majority of 'top rated' dungeons are simply bare bones token grinders.  The most tokens in the least time; if that's what SOE wanted with the binary rating system, then they were successful.</p>

Iskandar
01-16-2012, 04:38 PM
<p>One thing that's been hurting the new dungeons is the change in the default display... when DM was introduced, it defaulted to showing "Newly Published"... now it defaults to showing "Action (Recent)"... no one will see the new dungeons unless they go out of their way to actually look for them, and most players will just pick one of the dungeons they are first presented with -- from the "Action (Recent)" list.</p>

Spelchek
01-16-2012, 10:40 PM
<p><cite>Sapperlight wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree that there needs to be a description box in which we can include key things such as solo/group, difficulty, or intended purpose (token grind or theme).</p></blockquote><p>I like this idea.  It would provide recognition to those that seek it and slim down the options when people are looking for a dungeon to run. Both token grinds and themes have a valid place in the shrinking dungeon maker community.</p><p>The like system is a bit forced.  I like it's simplicity, but forces us to Unlike a dungeon that peolpe spent hours designing just because we felt it wasn't top rated material. </p><p>I was introduced to this by having spent over 30 hours putting together a dungeon (w/o editor) and seeing it get 5 likes for action and 4 likes for style...   Then I put up a quicky token farm (w/o anything other than mobs) and it gets 3 likes for action <span style="text-decoration: underline;">and</span> style... </p><p>From now on if I run a dungeon and it looks like they took the time to simply rotate a peice of furnature, I give it a "like" for style.  If I particularly like it I'll send them an ingame mail or respond to their posting here on forums.</p>

Cutharie
01-17-2012, 12:27 PM
<p>My thought is that no rating system will ever be fair, because there are always going to be people who, out of immaturity or sheer malice, are willing to skew the ratings. Witness the travesty that is the housing hall of fame on Everfrost server: the largest guild on the server has a mostly empty house in the hall of fame (go check it out, it's called Portal Plaza). They've got dungeons in the dungeon hall of fame with no style all -- just a "throw in everything including the kitchen sink" mentality when placing mobs. No rhyme, no reason, no theme, just shove everything in.</p><p>I don't belong to a guild with large numbers of people willing to spend time running guildies' dungeons, so the dungeon I spent time and energy on got no awards whatsoever.</p><p>Bah.</p>

Tielk
01-17-2012, 06:13 PM
<p>Good points everyone !</p><p style="text-align: -webkit-left;">In my view<span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; color: #ffffff;"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><strong> </strong></span></span>Iskandar brought up a lot of good points - </p><p style="text-align: -webkit-left;">A sorting system would be very helpful in selecting dungeons.</p><p style="text-align: -webkit-left;">More categories for voting.  Creativity, challenge, style, ect.</p><p style="text-align: -webkit-left;">A Mailbox attached to the dungeon for direct player feedback.</p><p style="text-align: -webkit-left;"> </p><p style="text-align: -webkit-left;">I hope to see some of these changes and points that others on this thread brought up implemented.</p><p style="text-align: -webkit-left;"> </p><p style="text-align: -webkit-left;">Thanks for your feedback !</p>

Guleipho
01-27-2012, 03:12 PM
<p><cite>Cutharie wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My thought is that no rating system will ever be fair, because there are always going to be people who, out of immaturity or sheer malice, are willing to skew the ratings. Witness the travesty that is the housing hall of fame on Everfrost server: the largest guild on the server has a mostly empty house in the hall of fame (go check it out, it's called Portal Plaza). They've got dungeons in the dungeon hall of fame with no style all -- just a "throw in everything including the kitchen sink" mentality when placing mobs. No rhyme, no reason, no theme, just shove everything in.</p><p>I don't belong to a guild with large numbers of people willing to spend time running guildies' dungeons, so the dungeon I spent time and energy on got no awards whatsoever.</p><p>Bah.</p></blockquote><p>On the AB server, nothing but "trash" dungeons, occupies the top spots.</p><p>Rating systems are just a waste of code ...</p>

Whilhelmina
01-28-2012, 09:32 AM
<p>What would be nice is the ability to click "like" and THEN, if you like, put stars. Then you'll see the number of people who liked the area and then how much they liked it.</p>