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View Full Version : We Need New Heroic Content.


Kunaak
01-07-2012, 02:30 AM
<p>the worst thing about DOV is that the content is tierd, and the gear in each zone is also tierd.</p><p>what this means, is zones like like TOFS and Rime zones are basically useless by the time you can clear kael zones, and the kael zones are useless by the time you can clear the drunder zones.</p><p>what this ultimatly leads to is, by the time you have everything you can get from ToT and SS, theres nothing left to do.</p><p>the new zones really dont count, cause they were dead on arrival - sabarons, and the dynamic zones have been a failure from day 1 cause they dont have anything in there worth going for, or doing the zone repeatedly for.</p><p>EoW is a zone to basically avoid at all costs, cause who knows what the gear you get in there today, will be tommorow - the gear in there now has less then 20 crit on it, and has been nerfed, and messed up so many times I simply refuse to run it any more.</p><p>so I log in, run ToT and SS, and thats it - I have nothing that actually feels productive to do.</p><p>the tiering of zones, and endless nerfs to the rare name loot of all the zones has basically killed off any incentive to actually do anything, so I find I am play faaaaaaaaar less today, then in SF, not cause I wouldnt like to be running zones, but cause crit mit in heroic content basically tiers the content, and tierd content is always bound to be obsolete fast.</p><p>give us some new zones - with no crit mit, and put some of the best gear in all the zones, so even easy zones have a reason to be ran. when it comes to heroic content, every zone should last for the expansion, not just 1-2 of them.</p>

S_M_I_T_E
01-07-2012, 01:36 PM
<p><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the worst thing about DOV is that the content is tierd, and the gear in each zone is also tierd.</p><p>what this means, is zones like like TOFS and Rime zones are basically useless by the time you can clear kael zones, and the kael zones are useless by the time you can clear the drunder zones.</p><p>what this ultimatly leads to is, by the time you have everything you can get from ToT and SS, theres nothing left to do.</p><p>the new zones really dont count, cause they were dead on arrival - sabarons, and the dynamic zones have been a failure from day 1 cause they dont have anything in there worth going for, or doing the zone repeatedly for.</p><p>EoW is a zone to basically avoid at all costs, cause who knows what the gear you get in there today, will be tommorow - the gear in there now has less then 20 crit on it, and has been nerfed, and messed up so many times I simply refuse to run it any more.</p><p>so I log in, run ToT and SS, and thats it - I have nothing that actually feels productive to do.</p><p>the tiering of zones, and endless nerfs to the rare name loot of all the zones has basically killed off any incentive to actually do anything, so I find I am play faaaaaaaaar less today, then in SF, not cause I wouldnt like to be running zones, but cause crit mit in heroic content basically tiers the content, and tierd content is always bound to be obsolete fast.</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">give us some new zones - with no crit mit, and put some of the best gear in all the zones, so even easy zones have a reason to be ran. when it comes to heroic content, every zone should last for the expansion, not just 1-2 of them</span>.</p></blockquote><p>Not going to happen.  They want mechanisms to give us artificial defensive mechanics to access new content that give us no advantage over previous content.  Crit Mit is here to stay.  Get overgeared or get the c**kblocker adorns in the slots or refuse to run it. </p><p>Simple as that. </p><p>They don't want mechanics that lead to the exp pack in 2014 to make people doing 40K dps solo now do 365K solo then because everything pre-DOV would be soloable.  I personally want 400K solo DPS for all content pre-SF as I'd never <em>need</em> anyone to do anything in old content again but hey, they want people to group as they haven't quite given up on control of the social game space.</p>

Felshades
01-07-2012, 02:58 PM
<p>They need to add new zones that don't require massive amounts of critical mitigation, raid gear, or superbly executed strategy with precise group makeups.</p><p>Friends of mine in rygorr gear just recently quit the game because they have no time to raid and cannot get into drunder because they don't have the gear. We tried Spire of Rage.... and failed horribly right at the start because the tank and healers could NOT deal with the amount of incoming damage. Yes, we were running two healers, inquisitor and mystic. Tank was a sk. Round that out with dirge, coercer and a brig and it wasn't happening.</p><p>They got tired of running kael over and over and over when they need nothing from it.</p><p>The whole idea of group zones for the raid geared folks... good on paper, fail in practice. There's a tank in my guild that pugs quite often in level chat on my server.. he's never had a problem with taking sub par groups places, but even he's gotten sick of failing in drunder before getting to the first named because the group isn't in raid gear. He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</p><p>It doesn't even need to drop the best gear. So long as it's better than Kael, people will run it.</p>

Leovinus
01-07-2012, 05:05 PM
<p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They need to add new zones that don't require massive amounts of critical mitigation, raid gear, or superbly executed strategy with precise group makeups.</p><p>Friends of mine in rygorr gear just recently quit the game because they have no time to raid and cannot get into drunder because they don't have the gear. We tried Spire of Rage.... and failed horribly right at the start because the tank and healers could NOT deal with the amount of incoming damage. Yes, we were running two healers, inquisitor and mystic. Tank was a sk. Round that out with dirge, coercer and a brig and it wasn't happening.</p><p>They got tired of running kael over and over and over when they need nothing from it.</p><p>The whole idea of group zones for the raid geared folks... good on paper, fail in practice. There's a tank in my guild that pugs quite often in level chat on my server.. he's never had a problem with taking sub par groups places, but even he's gotten sick of failing in drunder before getting to the first named because the group isn't in raid gear. He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</p><p>It doesn't even need to drop the best gear. So long as it's better than Kael, people will run it.</p></blockquote><p>Well, hopefully in February (more likely March?) there will be a slight gear reset with the new part of Velious.  I anticipate that there ought to be a good amount of solo content (like there would with a new expansion), and the rewards from that should make it possible to jump into heroic content branching off those overland zones.  I don't know exactly how that SHOULD fall into the grand scheme of progression and itemization, but hopefully the devs have at least some thoughts to progression and that it's a BIT more casual friendly, considering what's happened to the non-casual crowd (aka it's darn near gone by this point).</p>

EQ2Playa432
01-07-2012, 05:09 PM
<p>I'm under the impression that we are getting Western Wastes along with new group and raid dungeons in Feb, so there should be something for everyone (to complain about).</p>

Sturmkatze
01-07-2012, 05:13 PM
<p>   AoD definitely has been a disappointment content wise.  This game has jumped the shark.  Their not releasing content to me says that they're behind developmentwise and don't have the staff to catch up.  Will there be another expansion in November if they're still trying to give us AoD content?</p><p>    Anyhow, I myself suddenly find myself without any tangible goals in EQ2.  Kind of a shame as I exploited triple cash to pay a years sub for 30$.  The urge to play is fading fast as I finish gearing my beastlord.  Everything is turning into 'been there, done that'.   I'm wondering when EQnext will be out as I am a fan of the EQ franchise.  I just need to not be bored with it.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Felshades
01-07-2012, 05:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm under the impression that we are getting Western Wastes along with new group and raid dungeons in Feb, so there should be something for everyone (to complain about).</p></blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure that you're going to need drunder gear to get into temple of veeshan, and as a result, the heroic dungeons there are going to require eow gear.</p><p>At least thats the trend lately. And I have yet to be able to clear EoW, even with a guild group.</p>

Felshades
01-07-2012, 05:52 PM
<p><cite>Sturmkatze wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>   AoD definitely has been a disappointment content wise.  This game has jumped the shark.  Their not releasing content to me says that they're behind developmentwise and don't have the staff to catch up.  Will there be another expansion in November if they're still trying to give us AoD content?</p><p>    Anyhow, I myself suddenly find myself without any tangible goals in EQ2.  Kind of a shame as I exploited triple cash to pay a years sub for 30$.  The urge to play is fading fast as I finish gearing my beastlord.  Everything is turning into 'been there, done that'.   I'm wondering when EQnext will be out as I am a fan of the EQ franchise.  I just need to not be bored with it.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I'm afraid EQNext will be more like a Facebook game than an MMO.</p><p>All these rumors about it being console compatible and casual friendly along with the whispers from the industry I'm hearing about the sub model being outdated and how no new games are being developed with it in mind(read: cash shop driven)...</p><p>It may just be time for me to quit MMO gaming soon. You might get all the new impatient kids into it, but they won't stick around. I've been playing in this sub model(pay per month, get all the content developed and patched in for free, have to buy expansions... but then they add to that free too) for 8 years.. there's no way in Hate I'm going to be comfortable with having to pull out my wallet every single time I want to do a quest or get an item becuase it doesn't drop in game and you MUST have it to raid... if raiding even is in the new games...</p>

Kunaak
01-08-2012, 01:52 AM
<p>they have already removed crit mit from most heroic content.</p><p>so its not "here to stay".</p><p>if they cant see how crit mit has basically divided the content, and how it excludes some people from that content, then we have a much bigger problem then crit mit alone.</p>

Odys
01-08-2012, 07:20 AM
<p><em><span >The whole idea of group zones for the raid geared folks... good on paper, fail in practice. There's a tank in my guild that pugs quite often in level chat on my server.. he's never had a problem with taking sub par groups places, but even he's gotten sick of failing in drunder before getting to the first named because the group isn't in raid gear. He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</span></em></p><p>Quite a good description of the utter failure that drunder was and still is depsite at least one or two nerf. As i already wrote we barely made it after launch when the main group of our Tofs2 little semi open raid. We also had 2 healers and a Knigth (paladin). No that i got EM raid gear I wonder why i would go there, the gear is not any better than Em4 and 2 groups able to run drunder can probably clear a big chunk of the easy mode content.</p><p>Add to this other hilarious design choices : items that drop are supposed to be broken (i just learned it recently) so should we do greed or need on them ? Currencies should always drop as currencies not as item. I wonder who was crazy enough to think that breaking items woud be a good way to give players tokens.</p><p>The dps saddle for some of the named is certainly around 300-400 K, indeed we killed the 3rd named of Kraytoc once we got 600K (last winter). And yeap quite certainly most groups doing drunders can also do with 6 people a big part of Tofsx2.</p><p>The problem is certainly that the Devs actually discuss and get feedback only from raiders. Most people running drunders are actually using EM raid gear and often HM raid gear.</p>

Starlyyte
01-08-2012, 07:47 AM
<p style="text-align: justify;">Sturmkatze said -</p><p style="text-align: justify;">"<span>Will there be another expansion in November if they're still trying to give us AoD content?"</span></p><p style="text-align: justify;">---------------------------------???</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Apparently the webcasts etc have not even gotten the basic message through to the playerbase...</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Expansions as previously framed are obsolete now with SoE. They have changed their game. There will be</p><p style="text-align: justify;">(newish) content rolled out in chunks variously throughout each year as is planned tentatively for the early winter</p><p style="text-align: justify;">timeframe -- but anything packaged as an <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>'expansion</strong></span>'... is now a grouping of <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>new 'features' ie the new Mercs, and other various ideas like that, NOT the previous </strong></span>design of expansions which almost always included a few new features, some changes to current stuff, and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">new land mass/new zones for several of the different level tiers to run and check out.</span></p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">I came back approximately a month before this last expansion. I scanned the forums here, and watched several</p><p style="text-align: justify;">webcasts and found that explanation repeatedly explained, and brought to the forefront of convo's.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Like this poster - I still often hear in main chat ingame, and even in guild vent, people either 1.) Saying they are</p><p style="text-align: justify;">'hoping' for the next 'expansion' to have more new zones, more 'content' or 2) discussing how hopefully in the next</p><p style="text-align: justify;">'expansion' there will be new heroic and/or group content thats doable/has some carrot within.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">Really. The game we knew is different now and will continue marching in this new direction. The staff has not been</p><p style="text-align: justify;">unclear about this really major change, and it puzzles me how still, so many folks do not know about this or understand</p><p style="text-align: justify;">how this game is being designed to go forward. It is not accidental, it was <span style="text-decoration: underline;">a decisive move</span> made who knows when -</p><p style="text-align: justify;">perhaps as some guess, it was back when Smokejumper was first hired. The 'why' can continue to be debated but it</p><p style="text-align: justify;">seems like the knowledge of the redirection of the game should be understood.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">This ain't Kansas anymore.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">Coulda, shoulda, woulda can be bandied about by the players -- but, obviously, with all of the information widely available from our playerbase, Sony made their overall ownership changes and thats it.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Roll with it, drink and baitch about as I do from time to time as I walk barefoot across the Norrathian plains, or make different decisions with your gaming funds I guess.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">(*Sorry about line spacing/return/format of this post, its wonky I know.)</p>

theriatis
01-08-2012, 07:52 AM
<p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They need to add new zones that don't require massive amounts of critical mitigation, raid gear, or superbly executed strategy with precise group makeups.</p><p>The whole idea of group zones for the raid geared folks... good on paper, fail in practice.</p></blockquote><p>Hi,</p><p>just 2 comments to the senteces above...</p><p>1. Yes. Oh yes. The Idea of having to have a perfect (not just a good) group setup to run zones is... well, not the best idea.I ran Drunder often, having done all the heroic quests and nearly all the shinies collected in there and i can say, if you havenot an ideal or near-ideal group setup, you fail horribly (even if you are EM Raidgeared & skilled).</p><p>2. The Idea itself is not bad. Having A groupzone (emphasis on "A") which is for the Raidgeared / -experienced crowd can work, if:- It is ONE zone. Just a zone so that the Raidguys can brag to others "we cleared it". (Maybe with Gear which could serve as a Side-grade for EM Raidgear).- This zone has to be separated from Progression or Questlines. (And this is a MUST). Drunder is woven into the larger questlines and most of the Quest-a-holics will never see it.</p><p>Thats all, Rock on.</p><p>theriatis.</p>

Vitriol
01-08-2012, 08:54 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> items that drop are supposed to be broken (i just learned it recently) so should we do greed or need on them ? Currencies should always drop as currencies not as item. I wonder who was crazy enough to think that breaking items woud be a good way to give players tokens.</p></blockquote><p>What on earth are you referring to here?</p>

Gaealiege
01-08-2012, 11:36 AM
<p>I only anticipate there being a single set of heroics.  Three Siren's Grotto and I fully expect them to be the step up from Drunder/EoW.  As for raids we'll see. </p><p>I have every expectation that SOE will again throttle content.  I assume we'll receive Skyshrine and ToV will be artificially blocked until months down the road again.</p><p>I'm hoping for Plane of Growth or Mischief, but I won't hold my breath.</p>

Elskidor
01-08-2012, 12:54 PM
<p>LOL.40k hp is easily achieved without owning a single piece of raid gear on any class, so that's about the dumbest restriction I've seen unless you had a typo. Follow crit mit, because hp won't tell you anything.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><em><span>He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</span></em></p></blockquote>

Khurghan
01-08-2012, 01:27 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL.40k hp is easily achieved without owning a single piece of raid gear on any class, so that's about the dumbest restriction I've seen unless you had a typo. Follow crit mit, because hp won't tell you anything.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><em><span>He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</span></em></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Crit mit on its own is a meaningless stat, a player can load up on crit mit gear+adorns and be absolutely useless to the group by having a crit chance so low that they can't crit in new zones.</p>

Wurm
01-08-2012, 03:26 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL.40k hp is easily achieved without owning a single piece of raid gear on any class, so that's about the dumbest restriction I've seen unless you had a typo. Follow crit mit, because hp won't tell you anything.</p><p>[email protected] wrote:</p><blockquote><p><em><span>He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</span></em></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Yeah you are correct, other than x2 jewlery and sword I have 0 raid gear and have well over 40k HP. However I do have GOOD instance gear that gives me those 40k, so it isn't a silly requirement at all. Crit Mit is an entirely other matter.</p>

Banditman
01-09-2012, 11:53 AM
<p>Crit Mit is fine.  The problem is that SOE made a massive mess out of itemization at DoV launch and still haven't really fixed it.  No one had any CLUE what they were supposed to be doing for any given zone (gear wise), and the mobs weren't telling them in obvious ways.</p><p>Now, it's a lot more obvious.  Click on the mob, look at the buff package.</p><p>The biggest problem SOE is faced with now is that they have a MASSIVELY complex game, and they give players absolutely ZERO guidance.  Think about all the different things players have to deal with:  Mitigation, Resists, Stats, Crit Chance, Crit Mit, DPS mod, Haste, Attack Speed, Ability Modifier, Potency, Crit Bonus, Multi Attack, Flurry, Spell Double Attack, Block Chance, Additional Riposte Chance, Extra Riposte Chance, Parry, Dodge, Deflection, Defense, Block, Protection, Weapon Skills, Casting Skills, Spell Weapon Skills . . . I could go on for quite a while.  NONE of this is introduced to the player in any sort of educational way.  Heck, we can't even get a Dev to explain it here on the forums.</p><p>The situation is entirely out of hand.  SOE Development needs to get their hands wrapped around it, and then deliver some far better guidance to their players.</p>

Xethren
01-09-2012, 02:17 PM
<p>Basing any content around one or two 'gating' stats is a terrible idea and all it does is leave people frustrated. Also having single group instances that require raid-type strategies, precision, and stat makeups is also destined to fail. Remember people are going to be going into these heroic zones often with a less-than-ideal make up. So there has to be some room for error, even if just a small amount. Groups should be designed as something anyone can enjoy; leave the stat min/maxxing to the raids where it belongs.</p><p>This whole "you must have this much crit mit / chance to enter" needs to go. Content can be tiered, but the tieres should be between the expansions, not within the same expansion. SF was fun because there was always something next to do without having to run into a brick wall between dungeons just because you need to get a particular stat up to the next threshold just to survive.</p><p>I also believe that the complete item revamp of the game with DOV was unnecessary and caused more problems that it solved. Back then items had an appeal, people would look at something and drool over it; ask how to get it, where it dropped from and worked toward that item. Now its all cookie-cutter stat blah where the only upgrades you can look forward to have a 0.5% higher blue stat and 3 more points in STA.</p>

Nrgy
01-09-2012, 03:03 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Basing any content around one or two 'gating' stats is a terrible idea and all it does is leave people frustrated. Also having single group instances that require raid-type strategies, precision, and stat makeups is also destined to fail. Remember people are going to be going into these heroic zones often with a less-than-ideal make up. So there has to be some room for error, even if just a small amount. Groups should be designed as something anyone can enjoy; leave the stat min/maxxing to the raids where it belongs.</p><p>This whole "you must have this much crit mit / chance to enter" needs to go. Content can be tiered, but the tieres should be between the expansions, not within the same expansion. SF was fun because there was always something next to do without having to run into a brick wall between dungeons just because you need to get a particular stat up to the next threshold just to survive.</p><p>I also believe that the complete item revamp of the game with DOV was unnecessary and caused more problems that it solved. Back then items had an appeal, people would look at something and drool over it; ask how to get it, where it dropped from and worked toward that item. Now its all cookie-cutter stat blah where the only upgrades you can look forward to have a 0.5% higher blue stat and 3 more points in STA.</p></blockquote><p>Wasn't sure which of the many "Please, Nerf this Game" posts I was going to reply to becasue there are so many in this thread, I guess Xethren drew the short straw.  There aren't two gating stats in EQ2, there is one and it is called SKILL.  You could toss in KNOWLEDGE if you wanted to identify two, but honestly knowledge fars under skill IMO.</p><p>ANYONE that runs the only <strong>Heroic</strong> conent within DOV in <em>progression</em> <span style="text-decoration: underline;">WILL</span> have <span style="text-decoration: underline;">ALL</span> the required gear, stats and tools to 100% complete all progression content to follow in the progression line, Drunder zones included.  A players that know their class role will have all the abilities to be successful in all the zones if they have done the prior zones and have the gear available from them.  It is easy for any Heroic player to gain over 165% Critical Mitigation and 200% Critical Chance without ever stepping a single foot into a DOV or SF raid instance which is more than enough to complete all heroic content currently available.</p><p>Drunder 1-3 can be run without any raid gear.  D1 & D2 (maybe minus the final D2 boss) will need players to be in Ry'Gorr with Kael jewelery, but can even be done in less.  D3 and the D2 final boss will need players in Drunder gear (Crafted not dropped).  All gear has adornment slots on it for a reason.  Ignoring those slots is ignoring the class role skill required for these zones.</p><p>OMG, Kael 2/3 and Drunder 1-3 aren't zerg zones like the entire SF expansion was or like the first 6+ zones of DOV are.  Tanks need to be able to "Pull" and "Tank", Healers need to heal & CURE, DPS needs to manage their OWN aggro (OMG!), Utility Class ACTUALLY have a job.  These zones (K2/3, D1-3) do not require an ideal group they require skilled players which are actually hard to find these days.  Every group requires the samething ... a Good Tank and a Good Healer, the other 4 slots can be filled in with pretty much and other 4 skilled players using any of the other class roles or doubling up if needed.</p><p>The OP was talking about not having something to do based on the gear rewarded ... and actually a semi accurate assessment, but I'd hope the OP and the rest of us are logging in for something a little more than grab'N Phat Lootz 100% of the time.</p><p>-------------</p><p>When DOV part two comes, Feb/Mar/April, it will be interesting to say the least.  New Overland zones with progression quest rewards better than EW.  New Heroic instances with gear better than Temple or ToT, maybe a new token or crafting system /shurg.  New Raid zones with better gear than at least EazyMode Drunder x4.  Can't wait to see that, imagine what that will do to SF and DOV #1 zones.  Without a level cap increase, more stats on gear with really make raiding and farming much more interesting.</p>

Felshades
01-09-2012, 04:13 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><em><span>The whole idea of group zones for the raid geared folks... good on paper, fail in practice. There's a tank in my guild that pugs quite often in level chat on my server.. he's never had a problem with taking sub par groups places, but even he's gotten sick of failing in drunder before getting to the first named because the group isn't in raid gear. He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</span></em></p><p>Quite a good description of the utter failure that drunder was and still is depsite at least one or two nerf. As i already wrote we barely made it after launch when the main group of our Tofs2 little semi open raid. We also had 2 healers and a Knigth (paladin). No that i got EM raid gear I wonder why i would go there, the gear is not any better than Em4 and 2 groups able to run drunder can probably clear a big chunk of the easy mode content.</p><p>Add to this other hilarious design choices : items that drop are supposed to be broken (i just learned it recently) so should we do greed or need on them ? Currencies should always drop as currencies not as item. I wonder who was crazy enough to think that breaking items woud be a good way to give players tokens.</p><p>The dps saddle for some of the named is certainly around 300-400 K, indeed we killed the 3rd named of Kraytoc once we got 600K (last winter). And yeap quite certainly most groups doing drunders can also do with 6 people a big part of Tofsx2.</p><p>The problem is certainly that the Devs actually discuss and get feedback only from raiders. Most people running drunders are actually using EM raid gear and often HM raid gear.</p></blockquote><p>That's the thing. My guild *is* raiding. We're not top on the server, but we have quite a few HM down atm.</p><p>The tank I was talking about is a SK with 260 CM 280 something CC, one of our offtanks. Hes not exactly in terrible gear.</p>

Felshades
01-09-2012, 04:15 PM
<p><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They need to add new zones that don't require massive amounts of critical mitigation, raid gear, or superbly executed strategy with precise group makeups.</p><p>The whole idea of group zones for the raid geared folks... good on paper, fail in practice.</p></blockquote><p>Hi,</p><p>just 2 comments to the senteces above...</p><p>1. Yes. Oh yes. The Idea of having to have a perfect (not just a good) group setup to run zones is... well, not the best idea.I ran Drunder often, having done all the heroic quests and nearly all the shinies collected in there and i can say, if you havenot an ideal or near-ideal group setup, you fail horribly (even if you are EM Raidgeared & skilled).</p><p>2. The Idea itself is not bad. Having A groupzone (emphasis on "A") which is for the Raidgeared / -experienced crowd can work, if:- It is ONE zone. Just a zone so that the Raidguys can brag to others "we cleared it". (Maybe with Gear which could serve as a Side-grade for EM Raidgear).- This zone has to be separated from Progression or Questlines. (And this is a MUST). Drunder is woven into the larger questlines and most of the Quest-a-holics will never see it.</p><p>Thats all, Rock on.</p><p>theriatis.</p></blockquote><p>Its still fail in practice when the gear is nowhere near even remotely good enough to replace something in any slot from the items required to benefit from it.</p><p>Drunder's stuff is on par with tofsx2(tower of tactics at least) But without red slots(minus the chest). I have yet to come across a ry'gorr geared group that no only can complete access to the zone, but the zone itself, hence, upgrading their gear in the zone.</p><p>And some of the stuff in the other two Drunder zones are arguably worse than ry'gorr.</p>

Felshades
01-09-2012, 04:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL.40k hp is easily achieved without owning a single piece of raid gear on any class, so that's about the dumbest restriction I've seen unless you had a typo. Follow crit mit, because hp won't tell you anything.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><em><span>He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</span></em></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>HP = you're not going to get one shot when the mob breathes on you. Or looks at you.</p><p>We've taken folks in there with the crit mit requirements(not hard to get with adorns) but if you're in full ry'gorr gear and adorned solely for crit mit and crit chance where you can, using either quested or reputation gained jewelry and charms to fill in what you don't get elsewhere.. yeah you're gonna fall short.</p><p>We've taken people in there with the minimum crit mit required and they had less than 35k. And got one shot. Tanks maybe, but not clothies.</p>

Nrgy
01-09-2012, 05:57 PM
<p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Its still fail in practice when the gear is nowhere near even remotely good enough to replace something in any slot from the items required to benefit from it.<p>Drunder's stuff is on par with tofsx2(tower of tactics at least) But without red slots(minus the chest). I have yet to come across a ry'gorr geared group that no<span style="color: #ff0000;">T</span> only can complete access to the zone, but the zone itself, hence, upgrading their gear in the zone.</p><p>And some of the stuff in the other two Drunder zones are arguably worse than ry'gorr.</p></blockquote><p>There is not a single piece of Ry'Gorr which is better than the same piece of crafted Drunder gear... not a single one.  The drops in Drunder SHOULD only be used to mute and make ore for the crafted items.  The Drunder jewelery, the few which do drop, are better than or equal to anything which drops off of non-rare mobs from lower zones.</p><p>D1 & D2 are completely doable with a fully Ry'Gorr geared group (Period).  They are a challenge granted, but 100% doable.  Asking them to be continually nerfed even further than they already have been is like asking for x4 Challenge Mode zones to be tuned into x4 Eazy Mode zones.  Some people still like to run challenging content outside of second or third stage raids, which is the only other place to find content that is more difficult than facerolling over the entire zone like the heroics below Drunder.</p><p>Leave the zones alone and let players who can raise to a challenge us them, the others can simply run the zones which they are capable of running and can dream of better days after they either learn thier class roles or over gear the zones like they do now.  D1 could be tuned a bit, it is far more challenging than D2, but still 100% doable with non-raid geared players. </p>

Elomort
01-09-2012, 07:14 PM
<p><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>give us some new zones - with no crit mit, and put some of the best gear in all the zones, so even easy zones have a reason to be ran. when it comes to heroic content, every zone should last for the expansion, not just 1-2 of them.</p></blockquote><p>Before they even start working on new zones I hope they sit down and work out a full progression plan so that there is a clean logical flow from dungeon to dungeon to raid without the kerfuffle that was EOW /AND/ that the gear you need to enter is given the next dungeon is given by your current.</p><p>DOV so far needs you to have full gear of the level in order to get past overly stupid DPS checks and scripting.</p><p>They also need to be 100% certain to design future content with a sub-optimal, average but on-level geared DF group which means no stupid curse mechanics that rely on luck and having 2 people to rez (Lingwar, Rime Spires), no insane fights that can't be passed until you are geared in full gear (Bar in ISK or Bount in Spires) or that need items that could be ninja'd then party dropped as a griefing tactic (Goredeath, Ascent)</p><p>DOV has a lot wrong with it progression wise.</p>

Nrgy
01-09-2012, 07:54 PM
<p style="padding-left: 30px;"><cite>Elomort wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Before they even start working on new zones I hope they sit down and work out a full progression plan so that there is a clean logical flow from dungeon to dungeon to raid without the kerfuffle that was EOW /AND/ that the gear you need to enter is given the next dungeon is given by your current.</p><p>DOV so far needs you to have full gear of the level in order to get past overly stupid DPS checks and scripting.</p><p>They also need to be 100% certain to design future content with a sub-optimal, average but on-level geared DF group which means no stupid curse mechanics that rely on luck and having 2 people to rez (Lingwar, Rime Spires), no insane fights that can't be passed until you are geared in full gear (Bar in ISK or Bount in Spires) or that need items that could be ninja'd then party dropped as a griefing tactic (Goredeath, Ascent)</p><p>DOV has a lot wrong with it progression wise.</p></blockquote><p>There is nothing wrong with DOV progression it is plain, simple to understand and stright forward.  The only two differences in DOV compared to any other expasion are the zones are not all 100% zerg-able and the Itemizations is all hosed-up.  When quested gear is 1.2% lesser quality in stats than raid gear there is a serious problem.  DOV is more about pointing out the L2P people than actually being difficult.</p><p>Progression for DOV:</p><ul><li>Zone-in quests (gear reset), <ul><li>ToFS 1-3+CC, <ul><li>Velks 1-3, <ul><li>ToFS x2 is open<ul><li>Drunder x2</li></ul></li><li>Kael 1-3 ...from here you have a choice (Raid or Heroic)<ul><li>Raid Krytoc > Halls > Foundations > Drunder<ul><li>EOW</li><li>RAID CHALLENGE MODE</li></ul></li><li>Heroic Drunder 1-3<ul><li>EOW</li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul>

ratbast
01-09-2012, 08:54 PM
the interactivity of content is the problem. good players want a challenge, and bad players want access to content that doesnt penalize them for mistakes. solution is to make zones get nerfed the more times they are completed. this way first time clears are very challenging, and at end of expac cycle the bad players can finally get in there and kill it. challenging at start, ez after time. it would even inspire in bad players a feeling of routing for the hardcore players. if you wanted reverse effect, make raid zones get nerfed based on sheer quantity of heroic zone completes. then raiders are routing for casuals to succeed in heroic. there is already a mechanism in game for bad players wanting more content tho. dungeon maker. the worst thing eq2 could do at this point would be to nerf heroic zones to cater to casual players who are doing it wrong. IMO live servers should collectively be a progression server, with zones being unlocked (like plane of war) by in game events and content being nerfed by times its killed. the only micromanaging content should have from devs is when progression stagnates or is being killed too easily. zone nerfs should be coded into content based on player actions, with small adjustments from devs. tiering is not the problem. there are 10 tiers in game atm, noone is complaining about old content being too easy, even tho it is. the problem is finding a resonable rate over time that content is nerfed, and final bottom resting place it wont go under...maybe even getting buffed if left alone to gather strength. i think it would be awesome to go into cbk and find the mobs are 5 levels higher since noone has killed anything in there in ages, or that they are 2 levels lower since they have been slaughtered recently. the difficulty of content is currently static. for end game, when you have players of widely different ability, it makes it very hard to offer static content that pleases all. or if someone is powerleveling thru the CBK, emperor d'vinn will go eq1 kera'fyrm on him if he pulls too much. I would love to see a serverwide message that Fippy has been crowned emperor over blackburrow since it was left alone too long. Another rare spawn condition, and have him drop appearance loot and give achievement. the only server messages i see are myth weapons and guides mucking around the frostfell tree. interactivity could be so much more. game world could be turned over to community in some regards, would free up game devs and give community relations another tool to receive feedback about.

Felshades
01-10-2012, 01:33 AM
<p><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Its still fail in practice when the gear is nowhere near even remotely good enough to replace something in any slot from the items required to benefit from it.<p>Drunder's stuff is on par with tofsx2(tower of tactics at least) But without red slots(minus the chest). I have yet to come across a ry'gorr geared group that no<span style="color: #ff0000;">T</span> only can complete access to the zone, but the zone itself, hence, upgrading their gear in the zone.</p><p>And some of the stuff in the other two Drunder zones are arguably worse than ry'gorr.</p></blockquote><p>There is not a single piece of Ry'Gorr which is better than the same piece of crafted Drunder gear... not a single one.  The drops in Drunder SHOULD only be used to mute and make ore for the crafted items.  The Drunder jewelery, the few which do drop, are better than or equal to anything which drops off of non-rare mobs from lower zones.</p><p>D1 & D2 are completely doable with a fully Ry'Gorr geared group (Period).  They are a challenge granted, but 100% doable.  Asking them to be continually nerfed even further than they already have been is like asking for x4 Challenge Mode zones to be tuned into x4 Eazy Mode zones.  Some people still like to run challenging content outside of second or third stage raids, which is the only other place to find content that is more difficult than facerolling over the entire zone like the heroics below Drunder.</p><p>Leave the zones alone and let players who can raise to a challenge us them, the others can simply run the zones which they are capable of running and can dream of better days after they either learn thier class roles or over gear the zones like they do now.  D1 could be tuned a bit, it is far more challenging than D2, but still 100% doable with non-raid geared players. </p></blockquote><p>They're doable if you have a specific, precise setup.</p><p>When you come back with proof that you have done it in a group of rygorr geared players, I'll believe you. I have yet to see it. I took a group indo Drunder 1, and wiped repeatedly on the first boss because the tank couldn't take the hits.</p><p>The drunder crafted stuff's requirements are entirely too high still. You need entirely too much ore and it's cheaper to buy EM gear than it is to buy ore, and then at that point you don't even need to run the zones.</p><p>Right now, the only people on my server running them are raid geared people doing drunder 3 for the mount and to SLR the drops. That's it.</p>

Felshades
01-10-2012, 01:36 AM
<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>the interactivity of content is the problem. good players want a challenge, and bad players want access to content that doesnt penalize them for mistakes. solution is to make zones get nerfed the more times they are completed. this way first time clears are very challenging, and at end of expac cycle the bad players can finally get in there and kill it. challenging at start, ez after time. it would even inspire in bad players a feeling of routing for the hardcore players. if you wanted reverse effect, make raid zones get nerfed based on sheer quantity of heroic zone completes. then raiders are routing for casuals to succeed in heroic. there is already a mechanism in game for bad players wanting more content tho. dungeon maker. the worst thing eq2 could do at this point would be to nerf heroic zones to cater to casual players who are doing it wrong. IMO live servers should collectively be a progression server, with zones being unlocked (like plane of war) by in game events and content being nerfed by times its killed. the only micromanaging content should have from devs is when progression stagnates or is being killed too easily. zone nerfs should be coded into content based on player actions, with small adjustments from devs. tiering is not the problem. there are 10 tiers in game atm, noone is complaining about old content being too easy, even tho it is. the problem is finding a resonable rate over time that content is nerfed, and final bottom resting place it wont go under...maybe even getting buffed if left alone to gather strength. i think it would be awesome to go into cbk and find the mobs are 5 levels higher since noone has killed anything in there in ages, or that they are 2 levels lower since they have been slaughtered recently. the difficulty of content is currently static. for end game, when you have players of widely different ability, it makes it very hard to offer static content that pleases all. or if someone is powerleveling thru the CBK, emperor d'vinn will go eq1 kera'fyrm on him if he pulls too much. I would love to see a serverwide message that Fippy has been crowned emperor over blackburrow since it was left alone too long. Another rare spawn condition, and have him drop appearance loot and give achievement. the only server messages i see are myth weapons and guides mucking around the frostfell tree. interactivity could be so much more. game world could be turned over to community in some regards, would free up game devs and give community relations another tool to receive feedback about.</blockquote><p>YOu want to encourage bots to run around and clear zones so that they're of a decent level for anyone to even think about using them(your cbk example) or people to never run them again because they "levelled"?</p><p>That's just awesome for the game! Yeah!!</p>

Banditman
01-10-2012, 11:31 AM
<p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They're doable if you have a specific, precise setup.</p><p>When you come back with proof that you have done it in a group of rygorr geared players, I'll believe you. I have yet to see it. I took a group indo Drunder 1, and wiped repeatedly on the first boss because the tank couldn't take the hits.</p><p>The drunder crafted stuff's requirements are entirely too high still. You need entirely too much ore and it's cheaper to buy EM gear than it is to buy ore, and then at that point you don't even need to run the zones.</p><p>Right now, the only people on my server running them are raid geared people doing drunder 3 for the mount and to SLR the drops. That's it.</p></blockquote><p>Specific, precise setup?  Not really.</p><p>You need a tank.  There are six classes to fill that role.</p><p>You need a healer.  You might need two depending on the gear levels involved.  There are six classes who can fill that role.  In fact, if you are one of those "tweener" groups that needs a second healer "sometimes" but usually not, you can easily fill that second healer role with a Beastlord in Spiritual.</p><p>After that, you "probably" need a power regen, though this is a sketchy requirement.  You have three classes who can fill that role.</p><p>You need DPS.  There are at least 13 classes who can fill that role.</p><p>There is a PERCEPTION that you "must" have certain classes to succeed, which is born largely from ignorance of "why".</p><p>For instance, the most common misconception is that you "need" a Dirge.  Instead of asking "why" you need a Dirge, people simply accept it.  You don't NEED a Dirge, you need some of the things the Dirge provides, namely hate gain and stoneskins.  Both of those can  be provided by other classes, *IF* you know who provides them.</p>

Sturmkatze
01-10-2012, 11:51 AM
<p><cite>Starlyyte wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Sturmkatze said -</p><p style="text-align: justify;">"<span>Will there be another expansion in November if they're still trying to give us AoD content?"</span></p><p style="text-align: justify;">---------------------------------???</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Apparently the webcasts etc have not even gotten the basic message through to the playerbase...</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Expansions as previously framed are obsolete now with SoE. They have changed their game. There will be</p><p style="text-align: justify;">(newish) content rolled out in chunks variously throughout each year as is planned tentatively for the early winter</p><p style="text-align: justify;">timeframe -- but anything packaged as an <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>'expansion</strong></span>'... is now a grouping of <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>new 'features' ie the new Mercs, and other various ideas like that, NOT the previous </strong></span>design of expansions which almost always included a few new features, some changes to current stuff, and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">new land mass/new zones for several of the different level tiers to run and check out.</span></p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">I came back approximately a month before this last expansion. I scanned the forums here, and watched several</p><p style="text-align: justify;">webcasts and found that explanation repeatedly explained, and brought to the forefront of convo's.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Like this poster - I still often hear in main chat ingame, and even in guild vent, people either 1.) Saying they are</p><p style="text-align: justify;">'hoping' for the next 'expansion' to have more new zones, more 'content' or 2) discussing how hopefully in the next</p><p style="text-align: justify;">'expansion' there will be new heroic and/or group content thats doable/has some carrot within.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">Really. The game we knew is different now and will continue marching in this new direction. The staff has not been</p><p style="text-align: justify;">unclear about this really major change, and it puzzles me how still, so many folks do not know about this or understand</p><p style="text-align: justify;">how this game is being designed to go forward. It is not accidental, it was <span style="text-decoration: underline;">a decisive move</span> made who knows when -</p><p style="text-align: justify;">perhaps as some guess, it was back when Smokejumper was first hired. The 'why' can continue to be debated but it</p><p style="text-align: justify;">seems like the knowledge of the redirection of the game should be understood.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">This ain't Kansas anymore.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">Coulda, shoulda, woulda can be bandied about by the players -- but, obviously, with all of the information widely available from our playerbase, Sony made their overall ownership changes and thats it.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Roll with it, drink and baitch about as I do from time to time as I walk barefoot across the Norrathian plains, or make different decisions with your gaming funds I guess.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">(*Sorry about line spacing/return/format of this post, its wonky I know.)</p></blockquote><p>Cool story, bro.</p><p>   And I see your point.  I did a feedback suggesting to Sharkjumper that he should double dip for the SOEbucks.  40$ for an expansion that isn't an expansion to set the mood and...  Hmmm.  $40 for say Western Wastes when they decide to release it.  Maybe $40 for Sirens Grotto and $40 for Temple of veeshan.  Really, why not?  Why hold back on seeing what people will and won't pay for their game?  And did anyone 'lol' at their friends who bought the AoD collector's edition?</p><p>   Anyhow, enough complaining!  It's time to get in game and start killing the same mobs I've been killing for a year now, only with reforged equipment and 20 more AA!</p>

Valonia
01-10-2012, 01:34 PM
<p>I just wish they'd find the courage to nerf raid gear in heroics. Gear from a completely different playstyle should never trivialize another playstyle. In an ideal world a Tier X raid item would work like a Tier X group item in heroic and Tier X solo item in solo content. That way you could 'tier down' from raiding/heroics to group/solo content at any moment but have to work your way up the raid/heroic path if you wanted to start raiding or running heroic instances again.</p><p>Add some 'starting points' like Mastercrafted or the current incarnation of the Thurgadim armor and you'd have a system where different playstyles could coexists without raiders whining about heroic gear being better than their precious little toys or heroic instances being geared towards raiders. And as an added sidebonus there could be challeging zones that cannot be trivialized by your local raid force.</p>

Kenazeer
01-10-2012, 02:14 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just wish they'd find the courage to nerf raid gear in heroics. Gear from a completely different playstyle should never trivialize another playstyle. In an ideal world a Tier X raid item would work like a Tier X group item in heroic and Tier X solo item in solo content. That way you could 'tier down' from raiding/heroics to group/solo content at any moment but have to work your way up the raid/heroic path if you wanted to start raiding or running heroic instances again.</p><p>Add some 'starting points' like Mastercrafted or the current incarnation of the Thurgadim armor and you'd have a system where different playstyles could coexists without raiders whining about heroic gear being better than their precious little toys or heroic instances being geared towards raiders. And as an added sidebonus there could be challeging zones that cannot be trivialized by your local raid force.</p></blockquote><p>The envy is strong in this one.</p>

Xenxex
01-10-2012, 02:26 PM
<p>Theirs new content in like 2 months or so, that is ofcourse if they keep their original schedule of planned content.</p>

Griffildur
01-10-2012, 02:30 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just wish they'd find the courage to nerf raid gear in heroics. Gear from a completely different playstyle should never trivialize another playstyle. In an ideal world a Tier X raid item would work like a Tier X group item in heroic and Tier X solo item in solo content. That way you could 'tier down' from raiding/heroics to group/solo content at any moment but have to work your way up the raid/heroic path if you wanted to start raiding or running heroic instances again.</p><p>Add some 'starting points' like Mastercrafted or the current incarnation of the Thurgadim armor and you'd have a system where different playstyles could coexists without raiders whining about heroic gear being better than their precious little toys or heroic instances being geared towards raiders. And as an added sidebonus there could be challeging zones that cannot be trivialized by your local raid force.</p></blockquote><p>Brilliant idea Einstein.</p><p>Next they can go ahead and make quested gear equal to zero in any instance and heroic gear equal to zero outside of the heroic zones.</p><p>next time try to at least give the appearance of having a thought worth posting ...</p>

Tekadeo
01-10-2012, 04:38 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL.<span style="color: #ff0000;">40k hp is easily achieved without owning a single piece of raid gear on any class</span>, so that's about the dumbest restriction I've seen unless you had a typo. Follow crit mit, because hp won't tell you anything.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><em><span>He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</span></em></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>This is simply untrue unless you arent counting the x2's as "raid gear"</p>

Felshades
01-10-2012, 04:43 PM
<p><cite>Tekadeo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL.<span style="color: #ff0000;">40k hp is easily achieved without owning a single piece of raid gear on any class</span>, so that's about the dumbest restriction I've seen unless you had a typo. Follow crit mit, because hp won't tell you anything.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><em><span>He's actually had to make restrictions on it.... You can't go in with him anymore unless you have 40k hp.. which means you'd have a fair bit of raid gear at that point. :/</span></em></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>This is simply untrue unless you arent counting the x2's as "raid gear"</p></blockquote><p>They probably aren't.</p><p>And I'm mostly referring to the casters. Last time I took a dps caster into drunder, the first aoe auto attack killed them. Faster than the healer could get a spell off.</p>

Banditman
01-10-2012, 05:01 PM
<p>Here's a thought:  Don't stand where you can get hit by AE Auto.</p><p>Not surprisingly, my HM raid geared Conjuror *also* gets killed by AE auto attack in Drunder heroics when he manages to get over enthusiastic about his positioning.</p>

Felshades
01-10-2012, 05:30 PM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's a thought:  Don't stand where you can get hit by AE Auto.</p><p>Not surprisingly, my HM raid geared Conjuror *also* gets killed by AE auto attack in Drunder heroics when he manages to get over enthusiastic about his positioning.</p></blockquote><p>Funny. I don't.</p><p>And for some reason, mobs tend to like to NOT face the tank right on the pull. Especially in spire of rage during that ring event. Urg.</p>

Trynt
01-10-2012, 05:50 PM
<p>On a related note, I see people complain about their gear, group setups, and content hitting too hard all the time.</p><p>Then I inspect those people, and usually find empty adornment slots in the dozens.  The lack of self-evaluation and all-too-common apathy towards a toon's self-improvement is rampant.  And that's just EMPTY adornments.</p><p>I won't bother getting into the amount of people who put adornments that do nothing for their class on their gear... or who run App level spells/buffs... or who have no idea what classes benefit from what buffs... or who don't even understand what their <span style="text-decoration: underline;">own</span> spells/ca's actually do...</p><p>I guess it's just comforting to highly fragile egos to blame anything and everything else... instead of caring enough to evaluate their own choices.</p>

Banditman
01-10-2012, 06:11 PM
<p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's a thought:  Don't stand where you can get hit by AE Auto.</p><p>Not surprisingly, my HM raid geared Conjuror *also* gets killed by AE auto attack in Drunder heroics when he manages to get over enthusiastic about his positioning.</p></blockquote><p>Funny. I don't.</p><p>And for some reason, mobs tend to like to NOT face the tank right on the pull. Especially in spire of rage during that ring event. Urg.</p></blockquote><p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They probably aren't.</p><p>And I'm mostly referring to the casters. <strong>Last time I took a dps caster into drunder, the first aoe auto attack killed them</strong>. Faster than the healer could get a spell off.</p></blockquote><p>Contradict yourself much?</p><p>I don't have any problem on either of my tanks getting the ring event mobs turned away from the casters, unless of course the casters decide to get overzealous and start casting before I do so.  In which case I let them die.  I feel no great need to compensate for their inability to keep their [nukes] in their [bags] while I get set up.</p><p>I agree with the poster who commented that it always seems people try to blame the content for their failures instead of looking hard in the virtual mirror and doing a real analysis of their own shortcomings and taking steps to correct them.</p>

Nrgy
01-10-2012, 06:13 PM
<p>its a lost cause, and whats worse is that it is a repeated and tired outcry for more and more nerfage when simple class knowledge can easily replace failure with victory.  Why should we bother telling people with low CM that challenging zones are only challenging becasue of their low CM.  They just don't seem to understand.  Whats that?  You're casters are being killed by AE Auto?  You're kidding right?  I truely hope so, have you ever heard of ranging with range classes?</p><p>First i will grant you one thing and one thing only, D1 is harder than D2.  Beyond that D1 & D2 is doable by fully equip Ry'Gorr players.  That means 7 pieces of Ry'Gorr plus Kael weapons, secondary and ranged plus Kael Jewelery plus adornments.  Got it?  It is a progression zone up from Kael and thus required Kael armor, not 1 piece or two, but all of them including the white and yellow adornments. </p><p>Any player that runs around with 21 pieces of Kael drops including white and yellow adornments will be sporting 165+ CM, 175+ CC and 200+ MA.  Those states are enough to raid Foundations easily and survive.  The reason that people raid Krytoc and HoL rather than running Drunder is that those x4 raids are easier than Drunder.  You have 24 people that can all hide behind 1 solid tank and 2 solid healers while pushing out some poor excuss for DPS.  Drunder forces 6 people and expects you to be at least average.  That is why most people fail.</p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><pro tip> the pigs in the first ring even can be mezz'ed or charmed .. both will pause the ring event and let you catch you're breath.  I'll take a Coercer over a drige all day long, but to be fair, not many of them are even close to average to begin with since this is just about the first zone in 5+ years they can rule.</span></p>

Felshades
01-10-2012, 06:36 PM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's a thought:  Don't stand where you can get hit by AE Auto.</p><p>Not surprisingly, my HM raid geared Conjuror *also* gets killed by AE auto attack in Drunder heroics when he manages to get over enthusiastic about his positioning.</p></blockquote><p>Funny. I don't.</p><p>And for some reason, mobs tend to like to NOT face the tank right on the pull. Especially in spire of rage during that ring event. Urg.</p></blockquote><p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They probably aren't.</p><p>And I'm mostly referring to the casters. <strong>Last time I took a dps caster into drunder, the first aoe auto attack killed them</strong>. Faster than the healer could get a spell off.</p></blockquote><p>Contradict yourself much?</p><p>I don't have any problem on either of my tanks getting the ring event mobs turned away from the casters, unless of course the casters decide to get overzealous and start casting before I do so.  In which case I let them die.  I feel no great need to compensate for their inability to keep their [nukes] in their [bags] while I get set up.</p><p>I agree with the poster who commented that it always seems people try to blame the content for their failures instead of looking hard in the virtual mirror and doing a real analysis of their own shortcomings and taking steps to correct them.</p></blockquote><p>You assume that I was the DPS caster in question. I was not. I usually run my dirge.</p><p>I have taken my illusionist into drunder 3 without any issues being in melee range, with a guild group.</p><p>I have yet to run a group with a PUG dps caster that hasn't gone face down by getting hit by aoe auto attack.</p><p>Mobs don't exactly like to play nice sometimes; the ramps in any drunder zone is a notable one. Much of the time we have at least one mob that runs up and down and up and down  constantly, and can and has aoe'd the group.</p><p>We're not talking about making them doable for organized guild groups. We're talking about making them doable by the people that would benefit from the gear in random PUGs. My guild has no need for anything in the zone, nor any of the crafted gear. None whatsoever.</p><p>If you want to go check me out, look for Meridia or Nadirah on Crushbone.</p>

Felshades
01-10-2012, 06:40 PM
<p><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>its a lost cause, and whats worse is that it is a repeated and tired outcry for more and more nerfage when simple class knowledge can easily replace failure with victory.  Why should we bother telling people with low CM that challenging zones are only challenging becasue of their low CM.  They just don't seem to understand.  Whats that?  You're casters are being killed by AE Auto?  You're kidding right?  I truely hope so, have you ever heard of ranging with range classes?</p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;"> the pigs in the first ring even can be mezz'ed or charmed .. both will pause the ring event and let you catch you're breath.  I'll take a Coercer over a drige all day long, but to be fair, not many of them are even close to average to begin with since this is just about the first zone in 5+ years they can rule.</span></p></blockquote><p>Have you taken a look at the STR line for enchanters? Have you? I'm in melee range on mine. Always.</p><p>And I'll take both, preferably. Usually I'll get asked to bring my dirge. Better hate. We build the groups around that when doing guild groups generally. Melee dps.</p><p>PUGs I get the clothies. That even when doing it *right* end up dead. Because of gear.</p><p>And yeah, Drunder 3 is easier than the first two. Except that you need to do them in order in order to do Drunder 3, or pray someone you picked up has access to it.</p><p>Hell, my two raid toons don't have access to it.</p>

Valonia
01-11-2012, 09:57 AM
<p><cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just wish they'd find the courage to nerf raid gear in heroics. Gear from a completely different playstyle should never trivialize another playstyle. In an ideal world a Tier X raid item would work like a Tier X group item in heroic and Tier X solo item in solo content. That way you could 'tier down' from raiding/heroics to group/solo content at any moment but have to work your way up the raid/heroic path if you wanted to start raiding or running heroic instances again.</p><p>Add some 'starting points' like Mastercrafted or the current incarnation of the Thurgadim armor and you'd have a system where different playstyles could coexists without raiders whining about heroic gear being better than their precious little toys or heroic instances being geared towards raiders. And as an added sidebonus there could be challeging zones that cannot be trivialized by your local raid force.</p></blockquote><p>The envy is strong in this one.</p></blockquote><p>I'd not call it envy, I'd call it being fed up with players and the overall way the challenge level is laid out.</p><p>If I do not raid I should not have to cope with players trivializing heroic encounters or having absurd expectations for their pick up groups just because they happen to raid in their spare time. Last time I joined a Drunder2 group I could've just twiddled my thumb and collect the gear that dropped, thanks to other players being over equiped for the zone progression. That's no fun, at least to me and I'm longing for the day where I'll find a purely heroic equiped group to take a try at the whole Drunder+EoW heroic instances.</p><p>I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why raid gear should trivialize heroic content that's aimed at a completely different playstyle.  Only one.</p>

Griffildur
01-11-2012, 11:09 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>I'd not call it envy, I'd call it being fed up with players and the overall way the challenge level is laid out.</p><p>If I do not raid I should not have to cope with players trivializing heroic encounters or having absurd expectations for their pick up groups just because they happen to raid in their spare time. Last time I joined a Drunder2 group I could've just twiddled my thumb and collect the gear that dropped, thanks to other players being over equiped for the zone progression. That's no fun, at least to me and I'm longing for the day where I'll find a purely heroic equiped group to take a try at the whole Drunder+EoW heroic instances.</p><p>I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why raid gear should trivialize heroic content that's aimed at a completely different playstyle.  Only one.</p></blockquote><p>I onder, what's stopping you from creating your own groups ? </p><p>I can see it now : Drunder 3 group looking for players, no more than 150 cm and 180 cc. If you have above stats don't apply .</p><p>There, problem fixed and no change needs to be done to the game. </p><p>Oh and if you get no tells, that's mainly because you're the only one asking for this so you should realise it's time to stop this thread.</p>

Odys
01-11-2012, 12:22 PM
<p>I m annoyed with my name attached to a fake statement because i quoted it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>No 40K is not at all easy to get for most unbuffed classes. My paladin is not even sitting there since he is running with 39K, and he has rygor + drunder 3 tunic and cheats a bit with some x2 jewels. He probably also has 2-3 +229 hp adorn and a yellow one with 1K.</p><p>Last winter we entered the EM instances with around 35K buffed for healers, tanks were sitting around 40-41 with 2 healers buffing them.My warden is now at 40K self buffed with full x4 EM jewels and x4 armor.</p><p>My mystic sits around 42 with full EM raid gear and one HM piece (She still miss quite some jewellery).</p>

Banditman
01-11-2012, 12:39 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You assume that I was the DPS caster in question. I was not. I usually run my dirge.</p><p>I have taken my illusionist into drunder 3 without any issues being in melee range, with a guild group.</p><p>I have yet to run a group with a PUG dps caster that hasn't gone face down by getting hit by aoe auto attack.</p><p>Mobs don't exactly like to play nice sometimes; the ramps in any drunder zone is a notable one. Much of the time we have at least one mob that runs up and down and up and down  constantly, and can and has aoe'd the group.</p><p>We're not talking about making them doable for organized guild groups. We're talking about making them doable by the people that would benefit from the gear in random PUGs. My guild has no need for anything in the zone, nor any of the crafted gear. None whatsoever.</p><p>If you want to go check me out, look for Meridia or Nadirah on Crushbone.</p></blockquote><p>So, bad players are still bad?  This is news somehow?</p><p>All of the situations you have brought up are entirely mitigatable with solid play.  Ramps in Drunder?  Don't pull on them?  I mean, really?  Is this challenging to figure out?  Sure, it would be "nice" if SOE fixed pathing, but they haven't managed to get it right in 8 years, I don't expect it'll suddenly get fixed now.</p><p>You seem to imply that all groups should complete these zones without deaths . . . which is just ignorant.  These zones are moderately challenging for properly geared players.  They are rather easy for overgeared players.  They are almost impossible for improperly geared players.  Gosh, that sounds an awful lot like balance to me.</p><p>"Where there is no chance for failure, there is no opportunity for excellence"</p>

Avirodar
01-11-2012, 12:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why raid gear should trivialize heroic content that's aimed at a completely different playstyle.  Only one.</p></blockquote><p>A single reason is exceptionally easy. The path of progression.  Solo -> Heroic -> Raid. It is base game design in EQ2. Each step in progression can and does provide equipment that trivializes the prior. Each step up the chain requires more co-ordination, function and co-operation with other actual players. It is what makes an MMO an MMO, and not a glorified IMVU chat room.Your attempt of an argument carries as much weight as people crying that heroic armor trivializes solo content. In summary, you have nothing more than a severe case of envy.</p>

Banditman
01-11-2012, 12:47 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why raid gear should trivialize heroic content that's aimed at a completely different playstyle.  Only one.</p></blockquote><p>I'll ask the obvious follow up here:  Give me one good reason why heroic gear should trivialize solo content.</p><p>*rolleyes*</p>

Valonia
01-11-2012, 01:27 PM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why raid gear should trivialize heroic content that's aimed at a completely different playstyle.  Only one.</p></blockquote><p>I'll ask the obvious follow up here:  Give me one good reason why heroic gear should trivialize solo content.</p><p>*rolleyes*</p></blockquote><p>Plain simple: It should not.</p><p>I admit that part of my earlier post was not entirely clear, but I did hint at it when I sugested being able to 'down-tier' from heroic->solo and raid->heroic levels but not the other way round. Of course heroic gear should not trivialize the solo content we have. The game should be a challenge no matter how many players are participating as long as it's the correct amount players and 'right' composition of archetypes.</p><p>So I am still waiting for the single good reason.</p><p>As for the comment about creating my own groups: Nice try at sarcasm, but the only reason that does not work is because raiders have the attitude of expecting easy mode for having raid gear (so they ususally insist on bringing their raid-geared main to equip their alt) and the few remaining players simply having given up on even trying the higher instances.</p>

Trynt
01-11-2012, 01:54 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why raid gear should trivialize heroic content that's aimed at a completely different playstyle.  Only one.</p></blockquote><p>I'll ask the obvious follow up here:  Give me one good reason why heroic gear should trivialize solo content.</p><p>*rolleyes*</p></blockquote><p>Plain simple: It should not.</p><p>I admit that part of my earlier post was not entirely clear, but I did hint at it when I sugested being able to 'down-tier' from heroic->solo and raid->heroic levels but not the other way round. Of course heroic gear should not trivialize the solo content we have. The game should be a challenge no matter how many players are participating as long as it's the correct amount players and 'right' composition of archetypes.</p><p>So I am still waiting for the single good reason.</p><p>As for the comment about creating my own groups: Nice try at sarcasm, but the only reason that does not work is because <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>raiders have the attitude of expecting easy mode for having raid gear</strong></span> (so they ususally insist on bringing their raid-geared main to equip their alt) and the few remaining players simply having given up on even trying the higher instances.</p></blockquote><p>Even if you were a "raider", you couldn't speak for raiders' attitudes accurately.  You can't do it now either.</p>

Nrgy
01-11-2012, 02:02 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Plain simple: It should not.</p><p>I admit that part of my earlier post was not entirely clear, but I did hint at it when I sugested being able to 'down-tier' from heroic->solo and raid->heroic levels but not the other way round. Of course heroic gear should not trivialize the solo content we have. <span style="color: #ff0000;">The game should be a challenge no matter how many players are participating as long as it's the correct amount players and 'right' composition of archetypes</span>.</p><p>So I am still waiting for the single good reason.</p><p>As for the comment about creating my own groups: Nice try at sarcasm, but the only reason that does not work is because raiders have the attitude of expecting easy mode for having raid gear (so they ususally insist on bringing their raid-geared main to equip their alt) and the few remaining players simply having given up on even trying the higher instances.</p></blockquote><p>I think you'll find what you're looking for in a game called Planetside, where every player has the same 6 choices and guns shoot bullets regardless of how big your gun is.</p><p>According to who's design should groups be composed?  The same folks that design the gear to begin with or the content available?  There are NO 'Right' groups that force players to fill 6 slots with 25 classes.  The composition is left to the players and it is up to them to determine the 'Right-for-them' composition.</p><p>Why force people to use a tank when you can use a pet or root/rot or kite or path-exploit?  Why force players to were gear A when fighting mob A and wear gear B when fighting mob B.  If a scaling system for fights were to be implemented, I guarantee it will <span style="color: #ff0000;">NOT</span> be those wearing raid gear that do the complaining. </p><p>This is nothing more than it always has been; There are Doers and non-Doers.  Neither the gear or the zone are the blocking factor.</p>

Griffildur
01-11-2012, 02:13 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why raid gear should trivialize heroic content that's aimed at a completely different playstyle.  Only one.</p></blockquote><p>I'll ask the obvious follow up here:  Give me one good reason why heroic gear should trivialize solo content.</p><p>*rolleyes*</p></blockquote><p>Plain simple: It should not.</p><p>I admit that part of my earlier post was not entirely clear, but I did hint at it when I sugested being able to 'down-tier' from heroic->solo and raid->heroic levels but not the other way round. Of course heroic gear should not trivialize the solo content we have. The game should be a challenge no matter how many players are participating as long as it's the correct amount players and 'right' composition of archetypes.</p><p>So I am still waiting for the single good reason.</p><p><strong>As for the comment about creating my own groups: Nice try at sarcasm, but the only reason that does not work is because raiders have the attitude of expecting easy mode for having raid gear (so they ususally insist on bringing their raid-geared main to equip their alt) and the few remaining players simply having given up on even trying the higher instances.</strong></p></blockquote><p>hold on a sec, that makes no sense .</p><p>on one hand you think it's too easy when you're grouped with raiders. solution - don't group with them.</p><p>Then you go and say actually no, players gave up on running higher instances. We were not talking about generic players, we were talking about you. So if you gave up on running higher instances then you wouldn't group with raiders anyway.</p><p>Finally, raiders will not run heroic instances to equip their alt , they will run, you know, raids ... it's called alt loot.</p><p>So , i have to ask, do you even know what you are talking about ? You make no sense whatsoever, but yeah I can easily see the envy cause they have good gear and you don't.</p><p>This isn't about you anymore, is it ? You just have a bone to pick with raiders and if you can't have their gear then they shouldn't have any gear when they do instances either. Bit lame if you ask me since raiders invest a lot of time into aquiring their gear, while you spend yours crying on the forum. Big difference I'd say.</p>

Odys
01-11-2012, 11:28 PM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why raid gear should trivialize heroic content that's aimed at a completely different playstyle.  Only one.</p></blockquote><p>I'll ask the obvious follow up here:  Give me one good reason why heroic gear should trivialize solo content.</p><p>*rolleyes*</p></blockquote><p>Never listen to trinity <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>She probably started DOV with gear almost as good or better than EM raid gear (t2 or t3 sf one).  She never did any pre nerfed easy DOV instances in ohmir or partial PQ gear.</p><p>We now duo, solo those instances. Are we better players for that ? No.</p><p>Indeed our level of gameplay is way lower than when we had inferior gear.</p><p>It's the same for drunder and for raiding. She would probably wipe way more than you in drunder if she had your level of gear. And this for obvious reasons, she never did anything with an undergeared group.</p>

Valonia
01-12-2012, 10:08 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>As for the comment about creating my own groups: Nice try at sarcasm, but the only reason that does not work is because raiders have the attitude of expecting easy mode for having raid gear (so they ususally insist on bringing their raid-geared main to equip their alt) and the few remaining players simply having given up on even trying the higher instances.</strong></p></blockquote><p>hold on a sec, that makes no sense .</p><p>on one hand you think it's too easy when you're grouped with raiders. solution - don't group with them.</p><p>Then you go and say actually no, players gave up on running higher instances. We were not talking about generic players, we were talking about you. So if you gave up on running higher instances then you wouldn't group with raiders anyway.</p><p>Finally, raiders will not run heroic instances to equip their alt , they will run, you know, raids ... it's called alt loot.</p><p>So , i have to ask, do you even know what you are talking about ? You make no sense whatsoever, but yeah I can easily see the envy cause they have good gear and you don't.</p><p>This isn't about you anymore, is it ? You just have a bone to pick with raiders and if you can't have their gear then they shouldn't have any gear when they do instances either. Bit lame if you ask me since raiders invest a lot of time into aquiring their gear, while you spend yours crying on the forum. Big difference I'd say.</p></blockquote><p>Cute. Please, while you are still searching for the one good reason I asked for, point out where I said that I am not running instances anymore.</p><p>I'm doing quite fine actually. But at the same time I am (and have been since the day Drunder got released) unable to run any high end, non-hardmode heroic instance at the <span style="color: #ff00ff;">intended difficulty</span>. I could live with that for the pre-Drunder heroics at this point in the Velious timeline. But for Instances like Drunder and EoW that's just plain sad.</p><p>The last time end-game, heroic instances had felt like a proper challenge to me were at DoV release and only because the baseline of stats you had after finishing the solo questlines and PQs had been risen to near SF T1 raid levels.</p>

Griffildur
01-12-2012, 10:15 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cute. Please, while you are still searching for the one good reason I asked for, point out where I said that I am not running instances anymore.</p><p>I'm doing quite fine actually. But at the same time I am (and have been since the day Drunder got released) unable to run any high end, non-hardmode heroic instance at the <span style="color: #ff00ff;">intended difficulty</span>. I could live with that for the pre-Drunder heroics at this point in the Velious timeline. But for Instances like Drunder and EoW that's just plain sad.</p><p>The last time end-game, heroic instances had felt like a proper challenge to me were at DoV release and only because the baseline of stats you had after finishing the solo questlines and PQs had been risen to near SF T1 raid levels.</p></blockquote><p>I am not searching for any reason but i expect raid gear will nerfed in heroic instances at the same time with heroic gear nerfed everywhere outside of heroic instances and quest gear nerfed everywhere outside of the zone where you got them.</p><p>I already told you, if you don't like to group with raiders then don't, make your own groups any way you like and you can run them at intended difficulty. </p><p>Are you seriously trying to tell me that you're asking for everyone else to be nerfed  just so you ( one person ) can get your way  ? </p><p>i don't need to point out any more than I already have. Your request is stupid.</p>

Banditman
01-12-2012, 11:09 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why raid gear should trivialize heroic content that's aimed at a completely different playstyle.  Only one.</p></blockquote><p>I'll ask the obvious follow up here:  Give me one good reason why heroic gear should trivialize solo content.</p><p>*rolleyes*</p></blockquote><p>Never listen to trinity <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>She probably started DOV with gear almost as good or better than EM raid gear (t2 or t3 sf one).  She never did any pre nerfed easy DOV instances in ohmir or partial PQ gear.</p><p>We now duo, solo those instances. Are we better players for that ? No.</p><p>Indeed our level of gameplay is way lower than when we had inferior gear.</p><p>It's the same for drunder and for raiding. She would probably wipe way more than you in drunder if she had your level of gear. And this for obvious reasons, she never did anything with an undergeared group.</p></blockquote><p>He.  Trinity is my guild, Sudedor and Zealchu are two of my TEN L90/320 AA characters.  My forum handle, in case you missed it, is Banditman.  It has been since the NetMech days on Kali in 1996.</p><p>Yes, some of my characters have exceptional gear. I make absolutely no apologies for the fact that I work my [donkey] off for that gear.  I have been the co-leader of Trinity since before RoK.  Before that I was the raid leader for one of the first guilds WW to kill Darathar back when that was "hard".  I have filled every role in a raid you can be asked to fill at one point or another.  As a result, several of my characters are geared in such a way as to allow my guild to be flexible enough to progress when attendance isn't what we'd like.</p><p>On the other hand, many of my characters have almost nothing for gear, RyGorr at best.  It doesn't matter.  Why?  Because I understand what it takes.  So no, I don't wipe in Drunder when I don't have one of my raid geared characters.  I simply have to be more aware of the situation, and adjust my tactics accordingly.</p><p>Yes, there are certain things you MUST have to successfully navigate the Drunder zones.  Gear.  AA's.  Knowledge.  None of these are out of reach of players who follow the intended progression.  I *know* this because I have done it.</p>

Valonia
01-12-2012, 01:39 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cute. Please, while you are still searching for the one good reason I asked for, point out where I said that I am not running instances anymore.</p><p>I'm doing quite fine actually. But at the same time I am (and have been since the day Drunder got released) unable to run any high end, non-hardmode heroic instance at the <span style="color: #ff00ff;">intended difficulty</span>. I could live with that for the pre-Drunder heroics at this point in the Velious timeline. But for Instances like Drunder and EoW that's just plain sad.</p><p>The last time end-game, heroic instances had felt like a proper challenge to me were at DoV release and only because the baseline of stats you had after finishing the solo questlines and PQs had been risen to near SF T1 raid levels.</p></blockquote><p>I am not searching for any reason but i expect raid gear will nerfed in heroic instances at the same time with heroic gear nerfed everywhere outside of heroic instances and quest gear nerfed everywhere outside of the zone where you got them.</p><p>I already told you, if you don't like to group with raiders then don't, make your own groups any way you like and you can run them at intended difficulty. </p><p>Are you seriously trying to tell me that you're asking for everyone else to be nerfed  just so you ( one person ) can get your way  ? </p><p>i don't need to point out any more than I already have. Your request is stupid.</p></blockquote><p>Are you seriously trying to tell me that heroic instances should be trivialized by raid gear without giving me a single good reason for it?</p><p>I do not need to point out any more than I already have that I find your reasoning insubstantial.</p>

Banditman
01-12-2012, 01:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Are you seriously trying to tell me that heroic instances should be trivialized by raid gear without giving me a single good reason for it?</p><p>I do not need to point out any more than I already have that I find your reasoning insubstantial.</p></blockquote><p>How about because I don't want to carry around six bags full of gear to be used depending on where I am?  How's that?</p><p>How about because doing something as ill advised as this would add even MORE complexity to an already complicated game?  How's that?</p><p>How about because people who work hard for that raid gear SHOULD be rewarded for doing so?  How's that?</p><p>I can't believe you honestly feel that an idea this daft should be given any serious consideration.</p><p>If you don't like having raid gear, don't go get any.  That seems simple enough.  If you don't like the fact that it gives other players an advantage over you, you have tons of options.  Go get some yourself.  Don't group with those players.</p><p>I am still flabbergasted that this is even a topic of discussion.</p>

Valonia
01-12-2012, 02:03 PM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Are you seriously trying to tell me that heroic instances should be trivialized by raid gear without giving me a single good reason for it?</p><p>I do not need to point out any more than I already have that I find your reasoning insubstantial.</p></blockquote><p>How about because I don't want to carry around six bags full of gear to be used depending on where I am?  How's that?</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">I already suggested a system that did not force you to wear a single additional item.</span></p><p>How about because doing something as ill advised as this would add even MORE complexity to an already complicated game?  How's that?</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">Complexity is bad? Then I suggest we nerf encounter scripts into basic tank and spank. We'd not want to overstrain players!</span></p><p>How about because people who work hard for that raid gear SHOULD be rewarded for doing so?  How's that?</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">You work hard for your raid gear and it gives you the reward of being able to tackle the next tier of raid encounters. Not good enough for you? Why?</span></p><p>I can't believe you honestly feel that an idea this daft should be given any serious consideration.</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">It's easy to fling insults if you can't find good arguments for a discussion.</span></p><p>If you don't like having raid gear, don't go get any.  That seems simple enough.  If you don't like the fact that it gives other players an advantage over you, you have tons of options.  Go get some yourself.  Don't group with those players.</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">Even without your first sentence this shows that you did not even take the time to fully read and understand what you are commenting on. I'm flabbergasted by that despite having no idea what that even means.</span></p><p>I am still flabbergasted that this is even a topic of discussion.</p></blockquote>

Banditman
01-12-2012, 02:07 PM
<p>I fully understand EXACTLY what I am commenting on and am thankful that you have absolutely no support for this ludicrous idea.</p>

Valonia
01-12-2012, 03:40 PM
<p>Point proven.</p>

Gaealiege
01-12-2012, 11:40 PM
<p>As usual this is why we shouldn't have people outside high end raiders commenting on content.</p><p>You simply don't have the credentials to give suggestions to something you don't understand any better than you understand liquid dynamics.</p>

Valonia
01-13-2012, 06:55 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As usual this is why we shouldn't have people outside high end raiders commenting on content.</p><p>You simply don't have the credentials to give suggestions to something you don't understand any better than you understand liquid dynamics.</p></blockquote><p>Please tell me: What makes raiders experts on single group content? Last time I checked those were vastly different playstyles, like solo and small group play are different from group the dynamics of a  full group. So by your own argument you should not comment on the issue any more than I should, since you are a self declined expert for the raid side of the game. Plus I bet that I have spent more times in heroic instances since DoV release than you have.</p><p>Actually raiders are about the worst to comment on heroic content. After all their gear does trivialize 95% of the encounters. If you do not believe that's true you are simply out of touch of the heroic gameplay.</p><p>Your last comment is kinda cute though. Too bad it has nothing to do with the discussion except maybe that you really believe random research topics from your physics book have anything to do with game mechanics. I'd give you half a point if you would've at least used something sensical like game theory. But fluid dynamics is just silly. And a very weak try at derailing a discussion you seem to be afraid of.</p>

Griffildur
01-13-2012, 07:40 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>Please tell me: What makes raiders experts on single group content? Last time I checked those were vastly different playstyles, like solo and small group play are different from group the dynamics of a  full group. So by your own argument you should not comment on the issue any more than I should, since you are a self declined expert for the raid side of the game. Plus I bet that I have spent more times in heroic instances since DoV release than you have.</p><p>Actually raiders are about the worst to comment on heroic content. After all their gear does trivialize 95% of the encounters. If you do not believe that's true you are simply out of touch of the heroic gameplay.</p><p>Your last comment is kinda cute though. Too bad it has nothing to do with the discussion except maybe that you really believe random research topics from your physics book have anything to do with game mechanics. I'd give you half a point if you would've at least used something sensical like game theory. But fluid dynamics is just silly. And a very weak try at derailing a discussion you seem to be afraid of.</p></blockquote><p>If you wanna go down this road, then how aobut you tell us what makes you the expert on deciding how the game is played and what gives you the right to decide others should be nerfed for your own gaming pleasure ?</p><p>Shouldn't you mind your own business and if you don't like to play with raiders, how about DON'T play with them ?</p><p>You  keep avoiding the simplest and best solution here, which is exactly what makes me believe that you in fact don't care about anything but nerfing raiders since  they obviously sport gear you will more than likely never ever have .</p><p>Nothing stops you from going into an instance naked if you wish, with a group of people of your own making.</p><p>I already told you, MAKE YOUR OWN GROUPS . it's much more sensible than to come and ask for an entire group of people to be nerfed because you think they're too strong, don't you think ?</p>

SeregWethrin
01-13-2012, 08:06 AM
<p>Well, what I would like to see done is something similar to what we scripted on a private game server I used to play on a long time ago.  It was tiered gear that was bought with marks with 3 teirs of modes easy normal hard you got more marks for harder tiers and could buy gear in increments ie level 1 arms through level 3 arms and upgrade them with the old arms and marks.  The way we did it to make it fun and interesting is have like 10 different random dungeons that it could place you in with special boss code.  What made it so fun was that we scripted it so that each boss pulled random 3-5 random abilities it would use with a warning you had to figure out before hand.  </p><p>This would make it so that even when you got into the same dungeon you had done before you still had an interesting fight on each boss where you had to pay attention and react rather than just knowing the strat.  The boss might start off normal and then after an emote start ripositing every attack from the front making the mt turn off autoattack,  another scripted thing was the boss would hit the second highest person on the agro list with an ability that doubled his hate generation.  I think we had over 30 different abilities the mobs could gain for like 5-15 seconds after an emote.  Obviously it was easy to figure out what was going to happen but it still required players to pay attention and not just do the same strategy over and over again which at least made the battles more interesting.</p>

Griffildur
01-13-2012, 08:19 AM
<p><cite>SeregWethrin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, what I would like to see done is something similar to what we scripted on a private game server I used to play on a long time ago.  It was tiered gear that was bought with marks with 3 teirs of modes easy normal hard you got more marks for harder tiers and could buy gear in increments ie level 1 arms through level 3 arms and upgrade them with the old arms and marks.  The way we did it to make it fun and interesting is have like 10 different random dungeons that it could place you in with special boss code.  What made it so fun was that we scripted it so that each boss pulled random 3-5 random abilities it would use with a warning you had to figure out before hand.  </p><p>This would make it so that even when you got into the same dungeon you had done before you still had an interesting fight on each boss where you had to pay attention and react rather than just knowing the strat.  The boss might start off normal and then after an emote start ripositing every attack from the front making the mt turn off autoattack,  another scripted thing was the boss would hit the second highest person on the agro list with an ability that doubled his hate generation.  I think we had over 30 different abilities the mobs could gain for like 5-15 seconds after an emote.  Obviously it was easy to figure out what was going to happen but it still required players to pay attention and not just do the same strategy over and over again which at least made the battles more interesting.</p></blockquote><p>I wouldn't mind something like that actually.</p><p>If I were you I'd made a separate thread about this idea as it might get some support.</p><p>It would certainly kill the boredom of doing the same thing ( strat ) over and over again. +1 from me for this one.</p>

Faeward
01-13-2012, 08:32 AM
<p><a href="https://twitter.com/#!/Domino_EQ2/status/157485541401706496">https://twitter.com/#!/Domino_EQ2/s...485541401706496</a></p><p>She makes it sound so easy <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but where are the new zones?</p>

SeregWethrin
01-13-2012, 08:58 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a href="https://twitter.com/#!/Domino_EQ2/status/157485541401706496">https://twitter.com/#!/Domino_EQ2/s...485541401706496</a></p><p>She makes it sound so easy <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> but where are the new zones?</p></blockquote><p>You have probably never scripted anything but it takes a long time to do scripting of even a single boss.  Thats actually why we used the random abilities in my above example, because you only had to test the ability on a test mob that fired it off every 15 seconds and then on the final boss mobs,  it also made it much easier to add new zones and bosses to the random list or add in a new abilitiy because it was a single thing you were testing not multiple things all over a zone.   The fact is if your scripting a boss with a half decent script you have to playtest each boss over and over again to make sure the scripts fire off properly and that they cant be circumvented with each of there different abilities and constantly need to fix them for release and balance them,  I would guess that it takes a single dev around a month to script/test a medium sized dungeon (like KC) and that doesnt count the month of visual design it would probably take before that with a raid zone taking around a month for a team to work on.   Then you have to have the item design process which needs to link to the mobs lore as well as being balanced for the level and wanted stats for each class.</p>

Faeward
01-13-2012, 09:07 AM
<p>Thanks. I'm a programmer by profession for 8 years <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

SeregWethrin
01-13-2012, 09:15 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thanks. I'm a programmer by profession for 8 years <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Ahh, yeah sorry I just get tired of people complaining about bugs and a lack of content that have no idea how hard something like adding new content or a simple memory leak is to fix in something like everquest.   I can't imagine how bloated the code has to be after that many expansions.  It would be interesting to know how many lines of code something like everquest is.</p><p>I mean when I was scripting for a private server a single boss often had over 100 lines of lua.</p>

Griffildur
01-13-2012, 09:17 AM
<p><cite>SeregWethrin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a href="https://twitter.com/#!/Domino_EQ2/status/157485541401706496">https://twitter.com/#!/Domino_EQ2/s...485541401706496</a></p><p>She makes it sound so easy <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> but where are the new zones?</p></blockquote><p>You have probably never scripted anything but it takes a long time to do scripting of even a single boss.  Thats actually why we used the random abilities in my above example, because you only had to test the ability on a test mob that fired it off every 15 seconds and then on the final boss mobs,  it also made it much easier to add new zones and bosses to the random list or add in a new abilitiy because it was a single thing you were testing not multiple things all over a zone.   The fact is if your scripting a boss with a half decent script you have to playtest each boss over and over again to make sure the scripts fire off properly and that they cant be circumvented with each of there different abilities and constantly need to fix them for release and balance them,  I would guess that it takes a single dev around a month to script/test a medium sized dungeon (like KC) and that doesnt count the month of visual design it would probably take before that with a raid zone taking around a month for a team to work on.   Then you have to have the item design process which needs to link to the mobs lore as well as being balanced for the level and wanted stats for each class.</p></blockquote><p>You must be new to eq2. Here the devs don't test anything. They simply write the script, never ever test it even once and release it. Then the raiding community tests the raid zone on the live server, complains when they find jnothing works, then the devs slowly fix them one by one over the course of a year.</p><p>That's how it works in EQ2.  SOE Developer Motto : We don't do testing, we're too leet for it and we know it works anyway. if it doesn't work it must be your computer or you're doing something wrong.</p>

SeregWethrin
01-13-2012, 09:30 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SeregWethrin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a href="https://twitter.com/#!/Domino_EQ2/status/157485541401706496">https://twitter.com/#!/Domino_EQ2/s...485541401706496</a></p><p>She makes it sound so easy <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> but where are the new zones?</p></blockquote><p>You have probably never scripted anything but it takes a long time to do scripting of even a single boss.  Thats actually why we used the random abilities in my above example, because you only had to test the ability on a test mob that fired it off every 15 seconds and then on the final boss mobs,  it also made it much easier to add new zones and bosses to the random list or add in a new abilitiy because it was a single thing you were testing not multiple things all over a zone.   The fact is if your scripting a boss with a half decent script you have to playtest each boss over and over again to make sure the scripts fire off properly and that they cant be circumvented with each of there different abilities and constantly need to fix them for release and balance them,  I would guess that it takes a single dev around a month to script/test a medium sized dungeon (like KC) and that doesnt count the month of visual design it would probably take before that with a raid zone taking around a month for a team to work on.   Then you have to have the item design process which needs to link to the mobs lore as well as being balanced for the level and wanted stats for each class.</p></blockquote><p>You must be new to eq2. Here the devs don't test anything. They simply write the script, never ever test it even once and release it. Then the raiding community tests the raid zone on the live server, complains when they find jnothing works, then the devs slowly fix them one by one over the course of a year.</p><p>That's how it works in EQ2.  SOE Developer Motto : We don't do testing, we're too leet for it and we know it works anyway. if it doesn't work it must be your computer or you're doing something wrong.</p></blockquote><p>I actually came back just recently played since release and then took a long break and came back for AoD,in Dof and Kos they were pretty good about testing content before it went live so it was not that buggy, I havent actually raided much in the 80-90 bracket yet, I am kinda looking forward to it, I hope its not that bad though.</p>

Griffildur
01-13-2012, 09:33 AM
<p><cite>SeregWethrin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I actually came back just recently played since release and then took a long break and came back for AoD,in Dof and Kos they were pretty good about testing content before it went live so it was not that buggy, I havent actually raided much in the 80-90 bracket yet, I am kinda looking forward to it, I hope its not that bad though.</p></blockquote><p>Well, you're in luck, the Dov and drunder raids have been around for a while so EM and HM should work at the moment.</p><p>You should have been here when Dov was released though, there was not a single raid / heroic zone which worked properly.</p>

SeregWethrin
01-13-2012, 09:40 AM
<p>Thats actually surprising to me because I am meticulous about anything I do like that working properly. I find it hard to believe a dev would release their zone incomplete,  it would drive me insane to release something I was not 100% satisfied that it worked properly.  </p>

Griffildur
01-13-2012, 09:49 AM
<p><cite>SeregWethrin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thats actually surprising to me because I am meticulous about anything I do like that working properly. I find it hard to believe a dev would release their zone incomplete,  it would drive me insane to release something I was not 100% satisfied that it worked properly.  </p></blockquote><p>That is the attitude any normal person would have. This is the core reason why the tone on the forums is more than bitter. </p><p>But hey, if you're into housing and decorating, you'll be pleased to know those features work fine. No need to worry about trivial stuff like adventuring, groups, raids, pets, classes, aa,  itemization and whatnot, Who cares about those, right ?</p><p>Anyway, if you are new, you should be able to have plenty of stuff to do till you hit 90. </p>

Valonia
01-13-2012, 10:03 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>Please tell me: What makes raiders experts on single group content? Last time I checked those were vastly different playstyles, like solo and small group play are different from group the dynamics of a  full group. So by your own argument you should not comment on the issue any more than I should, since you are a self declined expert for the raid side of the game. Plus I bet that I have spent more times in heroic instances since DoV release than you have.</p><p>Actually raiders are about the worst to comment on heroic content. After all their gear does trivialize 95% of the encounters. If you do not believe that's true you are simply out of touch of the heroic gameplay.</p><p>Your last comment is kinda cute though. Too bad it has nothing to do with the discussion except maybe that you really believe random research topics from your physics book have anything to do with game mechanics. I'd give you half a point if you would've at least used something sensical like game theory. But fluid dynamics is just silly. And a very weak try at derailing a discussion you seem to be afraid of.</p></blockquote><p>If you wanna go down this road, then how aobut you tell us what makes you the expert on deciding how the game is played and what gives you the right to decide others should be nerfed for your own gaming pleasure ?</p><p>Shouldn't you mind your own business and if you don't like to play with raiders, how about DON'T play with them ?</p><p>You  keep avoiding the simplest and best solution here, which is exactly what makes me believe that you in fact don't care about anything but nerfing raiders since  they obviously sport gear you will more than likely never ever have .</p><p>Nothing stops you from going into an instance naked if you wish, with a group of people of your own making.</p><p>I already told you, MAKE YOUR OWN GROUPS . it's much more sensible than to come and ask for an entire group of people to be nerfed because you think they're too strong, don't you think ?</p></blockquote><p>Reading comprehension 101: I never claimed to be an expert.<span><a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=269370"><strong><span style="color: #3333ff;"> </span></strong><span style="color: #3333ff;"><span style="color: #000000;">Gaealiege</span></span></a></span><span style="color: #000000;"> </span>was it that claimed only raiders know anything about heroic content balancing. I merely stated a suggestion that you and 2-3 others decided to bash without giving good reasons, just because you do not like it. So who made you the expert on the topic? Not that this is a serious questions because experts can base their their reasoning on solid ground, no matter how stupid a question or suggestion might seem to them.</p><p>I also told you several times that finding heroic equiped players for Drunder+EoW is close to impossible due to raid gear being so predominant. Maybe that's different for your server. Lucky you! But it certainly is true for mine. So repeating the same broken record filled with lots of sarcastic remarks does not help either.</p><p>I even gave several chances to give good reasons for why things have to be the way they currently are and the only thing I received back were more degrading remarks and lots of smoke tactic. If you can't come up with a good reason in over 3 pages then my conclussion is that you do not know one. So I wont discuss the matter with you anymore, because it's pretty obvious there'll only be more smoke coming my way.</p>

Griffildur
01-13-2012, 11:08 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>Reading comprehension 101: I never claimed to be an expert.<span><a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=269370"><strong><span style="color: #3333ff;"> </span></strong><span style="color: #3333ff;"><span style="color: #000000;">Gaealiege</span></span></a></span><span style="color: #000000;"> </span>was it that claimed only raiders know anything about heroic content balancing. I merely stated a suggestion that you and 2-3 others decided to bash without giving good reasons, just because you do not like it. So who made you the expert on the topic? Not that this is a serious questions because experts can base their their reasoning on solid ground, no matter how stupid a question or suggestion might seem to them.</p><p>I also told you several times that finding heroic equiped players for Drunder+EoW is close to impossible due to raid gear being so predominant. Maybe that's different for your server. Lucky you! But it certainly is true for mine. So repeating the same broken record filled with lots of sarcastic remarks does not help either.</p><p>I even gave several chances to give good reasons for why things have to be the way they currently are and the only thing I received back were more degrading remarks and lots of smoke tactic. If you can't come up with a good reason in over 3 pages then my conclussion is that you do not know one. So I wont discuss the matter with you anymore, because it's pretty obvious there'll only be more smoke coming my way.</p></blockquote><p>You should drop the matter altogether because bottom line is, you cannot trivialise gear. I've already told you why, there's no point in repeating that. This isn't smoke tactic, it's common sense.</p><p>If you cannot put together a heroic equipped group for eow that means there's no demand for it, hence you're the only one trying that. That makes your entire thread pointless.</p><p>I'd like to see you argue that one without trying to find any more excuses.</p><p>Oh and one more thing, perhaps you should try to get back on point. The thread is about getting more heroic content not trivialising everything to suit your solo agenda,</p>

SeregWethrin
01-13-2012, 08:24 PM
<p>Well the fact of the matter is well done heroic content can have raid tier zones, I have seen it done in other games.  The fact of the matter is they should have heroic zones that raid geared players can run with alternate item drops.  </p><p>I think the main issue is there is a lack of a need in progression in heroic content from what I hear on this and not a lack of heroic content.  I think the issue is the fact that you can buy drunder gems and rygorr armor makes it pointless for many people to even bother with the zones in the first place.  It means that honestly for someone whos willing to take 3 days out and farm 1k-2k plat they can either get either set and skip heroic dungeon content if they wish, so everyone who is making an alt just ends up doing this instead of putting the work in to do the heroics in the first place.</p>

Valonia
01-14-2012, 10:49 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>Reading comprehension 101: I never claimed to be an expert.<span><a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=269370"><strong><span style="color: #3333ff;"> </span></strong><span style="color: #3333ff;"><span style="color: #000000;">Gaealiege</span></span></a></span><span style="color: #000000;"> </span>was it that claimed only raiders know anything about heroic content balancing. I merely stated a suggestion that you and 2-3 others decided to bash without giving good reasons, just because you do not like it. So who made you the expert on the topic? Not that this is a serious questions because experts can base their their reasoning on solid ground, no matter how stupid a question or suggestion might seem to them.</p><p>I also told you several times that finding heroic equiped players for Drunder+EoW is close to impossible due to raid gear being so predominant. Maybe that's different for your server. Lucky you! But it certainly is true for mine. So repeating the same broken record filled with lots of sarcastic remarks does not help either.</p><p>I even gave several chances to give good reasons for why things have to be the way they currently are and the only thing I received back were more degrading remarks and lots of smoke tactic. If you can't come up with a good reason in over 3 pages then my conclussion is that you do not know one. So I wont discuss the matter with you anymore, because it's pretty obvious there'll only be more smoke coming my way.</p></blockquote><p>You should drop the matter altogether because bottom line is, you cannot trivialise gear. I've already told you why, there's no point in repeating that. This isn't smoke tactic, it's common sense.</p><p>If you cannot put together a heroic equipped group for eow that means there's no demand for it, hence you're the only one trying that. That makes your entire thread pointless.</p><p>I'd like to see you argue that one without trying to find any more excuses.</p><p>Oh and one more thing, perhaps you should try to get back on point. The thread is about getting more heroic content not trivialising everything to suit your solo agenda,</p></blockquote><p>More smoke.</p><p>But you should take your own advise and drop it. If you had actually read my posts beyond the first you would've noticed that i'm only responding to people bashing my idea without rhyme or reason.</p>

Griffildur
01-14-2012, 11:04 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>More smoke.</p><p>But you should take your own advise and drop it. If you had actually read my posts beyond the first you would've noticed that i'm only responding to people bashing my idea without rhyme or reason.</p></blockquote><p>An idea which involves nerfing an entire group of people is idiotic. If you want to add to the game go ahead, but you're asking for all raiders to be nerfed. You can hide behind your reasons as much as you'd like, that's what it is basically.</p>

Valonia
01-15-2012, 01:23 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>More smoke.</p><p>But you should take your own advise and drop it. If you had actually read my posts beyond the first you would've noticed that i'm only responding to people bashing my idea without rhyme or reason.</p></blockquote><p>An idea which involves nerfing an entire group of people is idiotic. If you want to add to the game go ahead, but you're asking for all raiders to be nerfed. You can hide behind your reasons as much as you'd like, that's what it is basically.</p></blockquote><p>See? Again you are not listening to your own advice. Nor give any reason to found your opinion and are basically just trying to have the last word.</p><p>You must be <strong>very</strong> afraid of an idea that acording to your own saying has no chance of ever going live.</p>

Griffildur
01-15-2012, 02:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>See? Again you are not listening to your own advice. Nor give any reason to found your opinion and are basically just trying to have the last word.</p><p>You must be <strong>very</strong> afraid of an idea that acording to your own saying has no chance of ever going live.</p></blockquote><p>Lol what world do you live in ? Even SOE is not that dumb to nerf the raiders, you go ahead and suggest this idiocy as much as you'd like, it's never gonna happen.</p><p>Now that you got your 15 minutes of fame, can we move on already ?</p><p>Also, just so you know, the whole <strong><em>nerfing a group of ppl to suit you</em></strong> that is a reason.</p><p>A very good one as well, but of course you wouldn't aknowledge that, because you will never be able to debate it.</p>

Gaealiege
01-16-2012, 11:38 AM
<p>Oh and Sereg, I understand you find it hard to believe that SOE put out super broken content, but it's true.</p><p>When Western Wastes and it's heroic dungeons come out in February go run them immediately.  If you come back here and I can agree with you that the dungeons aren't absolutely sickeningly broken in mechanics then I'll give you a thousand platinum.</p><p>I'd put the chances of you winning that at less than 0.1%.</p>

Valonia
01-16-2012, 04:05 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>See? Again you are not listening to your own advice. Nor give any reason to found your opinion and are basically just trying to have the last word.</p><p>You must be <strong>very</strong> afraid of an idea that acording to your own saying has no chance of ever going live.</p></blockquote><p>Lol what world do you live in ? Even SOE is not that dumb to nerf the raiders, you go ahead and suggest this idiocy as much as you'd like, it's never gonna happen.</p><p>Now that you got your 15 minutes of fame, can we move on already ?</p><p>Also, just so you know, the whole <strong><em>nerfing a group of ppl to suit you</em></strong> that is a reason.</p><p>A very good one as well, but of course you wouldn't aknowledge that, because you will never be able to debate it.</p></blockquote><p>You seem to have troubles moving on. It's quite simple actually, you simply do not quote my oh so stupid posts and you'd be out of here in no time.</p><p>Until then I'll continue to point out that you still did not give a single good reason to base your opinion on. But then you know that, I know that and everyone that actually read the posts knows it as well.</p><p>Oh and in case you did not know, groups of people get nerfed all the time. Just think back at the time where solo gear and some of the EoW weapons had decent crit chance values and where they are now at. I'd say that's a pretty big nerf. .. Oh wait, I'm sorry. You do not do heroic content so you had no idea about that. You can thank me later since I know you'll continue to ignore your own suggestions.</p>

Amanathia
01-16-2012, 11:39 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh and Sereg, I understand you find it hard to believe that SOE put out super broken content, but it's true.</p><p>When Western Wastes and it's heroic dungeons come out in February go run them immediately.  If you come back here and I can agree with you that the dungeons aren't absolutely sickeningly broken in mechanics then I'll give you a thousand platinum.</p><p>I'd put the chances of you winning that at less than 0.1%.</p></blockquote><p>Edit: to Mrrshan above, as a defiler you have the tools to make the trash in drunder1 WAY WAY EASIER than anyone else. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Use it.</p><p>Lol no one would take that bet...</p><p>I agree we need more heroic content too, and I hope there is more reason to run old zones soon, but meh.  But the zones are coming pretty soon I think.  I can't agree with some here about Drunder being a problem any longer.  I was one that whined and made forum topics about it for a while, too, becuase imho it WAS way out of whack for risk vs reward.  But SOE listened...I didn't want the content made easier--and it mostly hasn't, yay.  But Risk VS reward there is now 100% fine.  Even if you can only kill one or two bosses with how much ore it gives you'll have pieces in no time, it's nothing like it was before.  Honestly if someone in EM raid gear goes in with a good group makeup and can't do it at this point, the problem isn't the content, heh.  And you don't need a perfect group makeup to do it, either...I've done it with only one healer, with someone's undgeared alt, etc...you just can't have the whole group be that way and get away with it, lol.  A lot of the issues you can overcome by being clever, as well.</p>

Griffildur
01-17-2012, 06:05 AM
<p><cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh and Sereg, I understand you find it hard to believe that SOE put out super broken content, but it's true.</p><p>When Western Wastes and it's heroic dungeons come out in February go run them immediately.  If you come back here and I can agree with you that the dungeons aren't absolutely sickeningly broken in mechanics then I'll give you a thousand platinum.</p><p>I'd put the chances of you winning that at less than 0.1%.</p></blockquote><p>Edit: to Mrrshan above, as a defiler you have the tools to make the trash in drunder1 WAY WAY EASIER than anyone else. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />  Use it.</p><p>Lol no one would take that bet...</p><p>I agree we need more heroic content too, and I hope there is more reason to run old zones soon, but meh.  But the zones are coming pretty soon I think.  I can't agree with some here about Drunder being a problem any longer.  I was one that whined and made forum topics about it for a while, too, becuase imho it WAS way out of whack for risk vs reward.  But SOE listened...I didn't want the content made easier--and it mostly hasn't, yay.  But Risk VS reward there is now 100% fine.  Even if you can only kill one or two bosses with how much ore it gives you'll have pieces in no time, it's nothing like it was before.  Honestly if someone in EM raid gear goes in with a good group makeup and can't do it at this point, the problem isn't the content, heh.  And you don't need a perfect group makeup to do it, either...I've done it with only one healer, with someone's undgeared alt, etc...you just can't have the whole group be that way and get away with it, lol.  A lot of the issues you can overcome by being clever, as well.</p></blockquote><p>Why are you using my name and replying to someone else ?</p>

urgthock
01-17-2012, 01:07 PM
<p><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>they have already removed crit mit from most heroic content.</p><p>so its not "here to stay".</p><p>if they cant see how crit mit has basically divided the content, and how it excludes some people from that content, then we have a much bigger problem then crit mit alone.</p></blockquote><p>But that was only half of what was needed. They need to remove the crit chance requirement from <strong>most </strong>(not all) heroic content. They should have crit mit and crit chance requirements in their end tier heroic zones (something for those with raid gear to work on) and then as the release new "end tier" heroic zones, they can remove the crit mit and crit chance requirements from the previous end tier heroic zones. Continue doing this and let crit mit and crit chance requirements be your "dividing factor" of difficulty.</p>

Banditman
01-17-2012, 06:32 PM
<p><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But that was only half of what was needed. They need to remove the crit chance requirement from <strong>most </strong>(not all) heroic content. They should have crit mit and crit chance requirements in their end tier heroic zones (something for those with raid gear to work on) and then as the release new "end tier" heroic zones, they can remove the crit mit and crit chance requirements from the previous end tier heroic zones. Continue doing this and let crit mit and crit chance requirements be your "dividing factor" of difficulty.</p></blockquote><p>Crit chance requirements exceeding 100% are in fact 100% SOE's fault.  The blame falls completely on the shoulders of the developers for not finding a way to keep itemization in check.</p><p>They **KNEW** that this was a problem some time ago, in fact, they even began putting in a system to FIX THE PROBLEM by scaling gear as you outlevel'ed it.  Basically, a L80 piece of gear with 10% crit chance would have only say 5% crit chance if the player wearing it was L90.  Back in SF beta, people QQ'ed so much about it that they dropped the idea, and look what happened!  Crit Mit and Crit Chance reductions for everyone!  Yay for listening to the people with no foresight.</p><p>Now, to be quite honest, the heroic zone crit chance requirements are not high.  Not at all.  Drunder towers require 220 crit chance.  That's it.  *IF* you are geared enough to be attempting these zones, you'll have that.  Period.  End of discussion.</p><p>SOE is *screaming* gear check for the zones, but no one wants to hear that.</p><p>Honestly, the biggest mistake made with DoV itemization was that it totally invalidated Sentinel's Fate.  Nothing in SF was worth the time any longer.  There are *TWELVE* L90 heroic zones in Sentinels Fate that go completely unused today because itemization is such a bloody mess.  There are three zones in DoV that go completely unused because the gear that drops there isn't worth the time it takes to get it.  That only leaves six zones for people to run before they hit gear check requirements.  That is quite simply NOT ENOUGH.</p><p>If you take the 12 SF zones, add in the three ToFS zones and mark all that stuff as "Lower Heroic" you've now got a HUGE swathe of content available, if you could just get itemization fixed.  You then take the three Velks zones, plus the three Kael zones and mark them as "Upper Heroic".  Itemize properly.  That leaves you with Drunder, EoW and Temple HM as "Elite Heroic".  That looks PRETTY FREAKIN GOOD to me.</p><p>What I don't understand is "How is this hard?"  I can do this, I can figure it out, why is it hard?</p>

Nrgy
01-17-2012, 06:53 PM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But that was only half of what was needed. They need to remove the crit chance requirement from <strong>most </strong>(not all) heroic content. They should have crit mit and crit chance requirements in their end tier heroic zones (something for those with raid gear to work on) and then as the release new "end tier" heroic zones, they can remove the crit mit and crit chance requirements from the previous end tier heroic zones. Continue doing this and let crit mit and crit chance requirements be your "dividing factor" of difficulty.</p></blockquote><p>Crit chance requirements exceeding 100% are in fact 100% SOE's fault.  The blame falls completely on the shoulders of the developers for not finding a way to keep itemization in check.</p><p>They **KNEW** that this was a problem some time ago, in fact, they even began putting in a system to FIX THE PROBLEM by scaling gear as you outlevel'ed it.  Basically, a L80 piece of gear with 10% crit chance would have only say 5% crit chance if the player wearing it was L90.  Back in SF beta, people QQ'ed so much about it that they dropped the idea, and look what happened!  Crit Mit and Crit Chance reductions for everyone!  Yay for listening to the people with no foresight.</p><p>Now, to be quite honest, the heroic zone crit chance requirements are not high.  Not at all.  Drunder towers require 220 crit chance.  That's it.  *IF* you are geared enough to be attempting these zones, you'll have that.  Period.  End of discussion.</p><p>SOE is *screaming* gear check for the zones, but no one wants to hear that.</p><p>Honestly, the biggest mistake made with DoV itemization was that it totally invalidated Sentinel's Fate.  Nothing in SF was worth the time any longer.  There are *TWELVE* L90 heroic zones in Sentinels Fate that go completely unused today because itemization is such a bloody mess.  There are three zones in DoV that go completely unused because the gear that drops there isn't worth the time it takes to get it.  That only leaves six zones for people to run before they hit gear check requirements.  That is quite simply NOT ENOUGH.</p><p>If you take the 12 SF zones, add in the three ToFS zones and mark all that stuff as "Lower Heroic" you've now got a HUGE swathe of content available, if you could just get itemization fixed.  You then take the three Velks zones, plus the three Kael zones and mark them as "Upper Heroic".  Itemize properly.  That leaves you with Drunder, EoW and Temple HM as "Elite Heroic".  That looks PRETTY FREAKIN GOOD to me.</p><p>What I don't understand is "How is this hard?"  I can do this, I can figure it out, why is it hard?</p></blockquote><p>Banditman for President ... got my vote!</p><p>I never understood why there was no actual level cap increaase when the content and the gear in DOV was already put in place to artificially create one.  Not to mention that SOE will keep us in DOV thru the winter of 2013, at which time they will have no choice in the matter.  Would they REALLY launch into a new realm w/o a level cap?  IDK, they did w/ DOV, so who knows what issues will present themselves later on.  Do they really think the level 90 tier can really support 2 or 3 more gear tiers, becasue I don't.  It is BAD ENOUGH that DOV 2.0 will have a new tier of gear available making Quested Treasured gear replace DOV 1.0 EM raid gear.  Its a page out of the old Blizzard book "Green is the new Purple" that happened every time new content was released.  (For those of you that don't know in WOW, Green is quested gear and Purple is raid gear)</p>