Why are you pushing people away from this game? [Archive]

JININ

01-03-2012, 01:43 PM

I normally only read the forum but now i am forced to write something and i would like a explanation which i doubt i will get, but what are doing to this game? I know gamers are the worse people to please but taking away things you promise makes it even worse. This christmas scenary was ok but we all have valid complaints! starting with the SC sales which was very seldom on time and to stop double exp and frostfell a day early. I only have a few friends left that play the game and they all have been talking about leaving and with these debacles SOE have been doing have pushed them over the edge to stop playing! All these free things you try to throw at them will not being them back either. So i would really like to a explanation on why you are doing what you are doing?

Starbuck1771

01-03-2012, 01:59 PM

F2P is becomeing mainstream thats the only answer you need. It is going to happen if you like it or not. Eventualy every MMO will do it just to stay competitive in the market. the truth is the F2P model with micro-transactions is highly profitable for the company and it gives poor people who cant afford the sub price something to do with the current state of the econnomy..

ObsidianNightmare

01-03-2012, 02:54 PM

<cite>Starbuck1771 wrote:</cite><blockquote>F2P is becomeing mainstream thats the only answer you need. It is going to happen if you like it or not. Eventualy every MMO will do it just to stay competitive in the market. the truth is the F2P model with micro-transactions is highly profitable for the company and it gives poor people who cant afford the sub price something to do with the current state of the econnomy..</blockquote>Where in the OP is the poster complaining about F2P. While their thought isn't clear what I gather is they are upset about frostfell ending a day early (i thought it ended on time) and the double exp ending a day early which is true. The OP seems to feel that everything has been a huge bug filled mess or broken promise that has pushed people from the game. Which IMHO is quite true.

kahonen

01-03-2012, 03:06 PM

<cite>ObsidianNightmare wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Starbuck1771 wrote:</cite><blockquote>F2P is becomeing mainstream thats the only answer you need. It is going to happen if you like it or not. Eventualy every MMO will do it just to stay competitive in the market. the truth is the F2P model with micro-transactions is highly profitable for the company and it gives poor people who cant afford the sub price something to do with the current state of the econnomy..</blockquote>Where in the OP is the poster complaining about F2P. While their thought isn't clear what I gather is they are upset about frostfell ending a day early (i thought it ended on time) and the double exp ending a day early which is true. The OP seems to feel that everything has been a huge bug filled mess or broken promise that has pushed people from the game. Which IMHO is quite true.</blockquote>This was also pretty much what was said after the last expansion came out. When this was raised on the forums before AoD was released they were called "negative" and "nay-sayers". Whole different bunch of people complaining now.Perhaps the truth is that if people are leaving EQ2 because the annual farce that is known as Frostfell is finishing one day early, then they need to consider doing something else. Perhaps SOE don't care because they don't appear to be long term players that will make them money.When people have been playing long enough to realise that the only reason Frostfell activities are relatively bug-free is because they've used the same core quests for the last 6 years, maybe they'll realise there are bigger problems in the game which, hopefully, SOE are spending the time fixing.

SOE-MOD-02

01-03-2012, 03:37 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=499962&post_id=5696847" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=49996...post_id=5696847</a> Posts should be respectful and on topic.

Griffildur

01-03-2012, 03:39 PM

The_Cheeseman

01-03-2012, 06:39 PM

What question are you even asking here? "Why are you doing what you are doing?" Perhaps if you were a bit more specific you could actually get an answer. Your not going to start any meaningful dialogue with the developers by asking rhetorical questions that merely express some vague dissatisfaction with the general state of the game as a whole without offering any form of constructive criticism. I agree that there is a lot wrong with the game right now, but posts like this only clutter-up the forums and distract attention from actual, useful feedback. I suggest that you attempt to list those aspects of the game you are unhappy with and perhaps even suggest ways in which they could be improved. That is the kind of post that actually makes things better.

Starbuck1771

01-03-2012, 07:11 PM

Starbuck1771

01-03-2012, 07:17 PM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Starbuck1771 wrote:</cite><blockquote>F2P is becomeing mainstream thats the only answer you need. It is going to happen if you like it or not. Eventualy every MMO will do it just to stay competitive in the market. the truth is the F2P model with micro-transactions is highly profitable for the company and it gives poor people who cant afford the sub price something to do with the current state of the econnomy..</blockquote>That's BS</blockquote>Prove me wrong or we agree to disagree. If you do the math it is clear wow's first 20 levels f2p, warhammer's endless trial, even the head of CCP notices it:<a href="http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672">http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.as...=blog&nbid=2672</a>Virtual GoodsNext we arrive at our rather underwhelming virtual goods rollout. There was hardly anything to purchase initially, let alone to put the cost of the infamous monocle in perspective. The last thing we wanted to do was create the perception that all items in the store would be in that price range. Quite frankly, it was rather pointless to begin with because we did not have a multiuser environment in which players could show off their purchases. It was another feature that we rushed out the door before it was ready.We also didn’t do enough to assure you that this wasn’t the beginning of a “pay to win” scenario in EVE. Let me be blunt: Unless the MMO business changes radically, our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items, or as we said after the CSM visit this summer: <a href="http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=935">The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.</a>Though the introduction was clearly flawed, our plans for virtual goods are intended to make your playing experience better, not to disrupt it. From a strategic perspective, we had to take these first steps because monthly subscriptions are increasingly becoming a thing of the past. The culture of online gaming is changing, just as the notion of digital ownership did with music. If we don’t evolve our technology, our game design and our revenue model, then we risk obsolescence, and we just can’t allow that to happen to EVE or to our community.

Jalen

01-03-2012, 10:33 PM

<cite>Starbuck1771 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ObsidianNightmare wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Starbuck1771 wrote:</cite><blockquote>F2P is becomeing mainstream thats the only answer you need. It is going to happen if you like it or not. Eventualy every MMO will do it just to stay competitive in the market. the truth is the F2P model with micro-transactions is highly profitable for the company and it gives poor people who cant afford the sub price something to do with the current state of the econnomy..</blockquote>Where in the OP is the poster complaining about F2P. While their thought isn't clear what I gather is they are upset about frostfell ending a day early (i thought it ended on time) and the double exp ending a day early which is true. The OP seems to feel that everything has been a huge bug filled mess or broken promise that has pushed people from the game. Which IMHO is quite true.</blockquote>Since when did Frostfell involve station cash?</blockquote>Perhaps read the OP again? Their complaint wasn't about SC, it was about the timing and scheduling tomfoolery SOE seems to be engaging in for more than just double xp. Derailing the thread doesn't explain anything.

S_M_I_T_E

01-03-2012, 10:58 PM

I don't think they're trying to push people away, I just think they're a day late and a dollar short as always to the part. Their communication to the community is often disorganized and rushed at best.In contrast, I think if SJ was really playing as much TOR as has been claimed new players or even vet players would be receiving emails like this:<img src="http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss311/Dycene/ProgressionMail.png" width="496" height="538" />F2P is all good an all, but really though... I mean a blind monkey could follow those instructions above. Even Rift didn't give me a lvl 10 or lvl 20 send off...EQ2 and EQN for that matter could use some much needed and well oiled regulatory polish with community communication. The EQ2 team has been coasting on the fact that the community here is by in large so mature and helpul that such baby food guides as above aren't deemed as necessary. Compound that with the fact that EQ2maps are not ALREADY installed for all new users from SOE's end. I was helping some old returning vet over the holidays try to get his EQ2 map 'right' but what wasn't right that he should have had to 'mess' with it to begin with. That's just lack of polish.

Lempo

01-03-2012, 11:16 PM

Since the OP wasn't clear enough let's list a few things...AA mirrors broken with a GU where the AA trees were modified 100% due to a lack of testing and/or listening to /bug reports, and left broken for nearly 2 months. If this wasn't bad enough the past 2 times changes were made mirrors were broken, the respec capabilities were broken the past 2 times as well.Beastlord war runes took them at least 3 tries to get it, and may not even be right at this point.Pathing is still an atrocity.Itemization is still a joke.The executive producer call paying subscribers trolls because he doesn't like the feedback they have.AoD announced to be an inclusive expansion pack then midstream it is changed and outcry as to why totally ignored continuing the display of utter contempt towards the player base.Beastlord quests broken for one alignment, fixed but not really, then fixed again.Vet rewards screwed up.Fighter gear and scout gear changed and made worthless for the intended class.Combat issues where you character would automatically face away fom mobs.The list goes on, this is because of a lack of testing and a disregard for reports of things broken in beta. People grow tired of this type of foolishness, it just gets old.

scruffylookin

01-03-2012, 11:39 PM

<cite>Starbuck1771 wrote:</cite><blockquote>F2P is becomeing mainstream thats the only answer you need. It is going to happen if you like it or not. Eventualy every MMO will do it just to stay competitive in the market. the truth is the F2P model with micro-transactions is highly profitable for the company and it gives poor people who cant afford the sub price something to do with the current state of the econnomy..</blockquote>I'm pretty sure the OP is in favor of the F2P model, since he was complaining that SC sales weren't on time (not that I fully understand what he means by that).

Felshades

01-04-2012, 12:13 AM

I just had two friends quit the game today because there is nothing left for them to do that isn't raid to get gear to run other zones.What SOE needs to do is start introducing dungeons.. group dungeons... that are able to be done easily with any group makeup in normal gear. Not raid gear, not drunder crafted gear... normal. rygorr. gear.I know making instances for the raid geared folks makes them happy.. but your random average group of people that don't have the best of gear or like to run with their "special" friends will end up not having anything else to do. Yes, Drunder *should* be runnable in Ry'Gorr gear. But unless you have superb skill, FPS twitch reflexes, and a precise group setup with specific classes, it isn't happening. And none of our groups ended up in that set.You're currently making everyone that isn't in raid gear(and some of us that are) run pools and ascent over and over again with no hope of getting any good gear unless they buy it because the drunder crafted stuff still isn't worth what you have to get to make it and some people(like my two friends) don't have the time to raid or make enough plat to buy loot rights.And they CERTAINLY don't have the money to buy the colossals. Much less do the instances that drop them.Group content should be accessable to everyone in some way shape or form. If you want exclusive content, make it the raids. That's ONE thing that Blizzard got right. They add with each of their raid releases group zones that are easily clearable with the gear from the prior heroics. You don't need raid gear to have a shot in hell of clearing without a precise makeup and the skills of a pro.

kahonen

01-04-2012, 05:14 AM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since the OP wasn't clear enough let's list a few things...AA mirrors broken with a GU where the AA trees were modified 100% due to a lack of testing and/or listening to /bug reports, and left broken for nearly 2 months. If this wasn't bad enough the past 2 times changes were made mirrors were broken, the respec capabilities were broken the past 2 times as well.Beastlord war runes took them at least 3 tries to get it, and may not even be right at this point.Pathing is still an atrocity.Itemization is still a joke.The executive producer call paying subscribers trolls because he doesn't like the feedback they have.AoD announced to be an inclusive expansion pack then midstream it is changed and outcry as to why totally ignored continuing the display of utter contempt towards the player base.Beastlord quests broken for one alignment, fixed but not really, then fixed again.Vet rewards screwed up.Fighter gear and scout gear changed and made worthless for the intended class.Combat issues where you character would automatically face away fom mobs.The list goes on, this is because of a lack of testing and a disregard for reports of things broken in beta. People grow tired of this type of foolishness, it just gets old.</blockquote>Well said.SOE (or the people in it) appear unwilling or unable to take criticism at the moment. We regularly see threads threads being deleted with a comment to indicate that criticism should be constructive or that it was removed for trolling. Most of these threads have actually been perfectly reasonable statements of fact. The game is broken and shows every sign of becoming increasingly broken because fixing it will cost money and EQ2 is all about making money at the moment. SOE appear not to have the foresight or imagination to realise that fixing the game is actually a good investment and that it would make an increasingly unattractive product attractive again.

Felshades

01-04-2012, 05:31 AM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well said.SOE (or the people in it) appear unwilling or unable to take criticism at the moment. We regularly see threads threads being deleted with a comment to indicate that criticism should be constructive or that it was removed for trolling. Most of these threads have actually been perfectly reasonable statements of fact. The game is broken and shows every sign of becoming increasingly broken because fixing it will cost money and EQ2 is all about making money at the moment. SOE appear not to have the foresight or imagination to realise that fixing the game is actually a good investment and that it would make an increasingly unattractive product attractive again.</blockquote>No, it's not that the OP or something would be constructive criticism, usually when threads like that get locked, it's because people reported other posts in there to the moderators for whatever reason and too many flags = thread closed.They don't close threads because they don't want to hear it. They DO however close threads when people start telling others their ideas are dumb, or that "youre wrong its fine" gets thrown around entirely too much.20 bucks says if a thead was made where there was NO discussion whatsoever and a list was made of everything wrong with the game and why, and NO OTHER PLAYERS COMMENTED ON ANYONE ELSE'S LISTS the thread would stay put.When someone else comments on someone's opinions on stuff, then it's a recipe for removal.I've moderated game forums. We learned really early on to not take a chance. If the thread even SMELLED of going downhill, we removed it to keep things civil. Didn't mean we didn't like or care about what was said. Warnings usually just got it riled up more.As for lack of testing? How about you magically come up with a way to get everyone that actually gets in beta and on test server to exploit the crab out of everything, and then report it en masse? You guys claim that it's been reported over and over and over but when ONE person says something, it's assumed to be an isolated event. You need more reports. Also, things that work on beta can and do come to Live with bugs. Either the wrong code was pushed in, or someone hit a key and added a letter to it or something. Conditions on the beta, test, and internal servers are not the exact same thing as on Live.Then there's the beneficial exploits. Like the one in another game that let people use a raid finder tool to get loot more than once per week to gear out their entire raid force so they could steamroll for world firsts. They knew about that on test. They just didn't say anything because it gave them an advantage. People DO things like that sadly.I do however, find hilarity in how everyone is jumping at SoE thinking its some kind of doomsday conspiracy theory that they don't care about nor listen to anything we say. If you think that so strongly, then maybe you should get the point across in how they would definiately care... by leaving. Less money coming in by people leaving in droves is a pretty good way to get things looked at... but nope. Ya'll just keep complaining and paying, and there's no reason to listen to a vocal minority if they're still paying up.My 2pp.

Odys

01-04-2012, 05:45 AM

AA mirrors broken with a GU where the AA trees were modified 100% due to a lack of testing and/or listening to /bug reports, and left broken for nearly 2 months. If this wasn't bad enough the past 2 times changes were made mirrors were broken, the respec capabilities were broken the past 2 times as well.I got extremelly lucky since i was on Eq2 vacation when this happened.Pathing is still an atrocity.Add to this the fact that so many mobs have deadly frontal a you get really a bad situation, my T4 beastlord could have been hilarious videos with mob jumping all around.Itemization is still a joke.Scout with 400 MA, tanks with 200-300, healers with zero (unless they reforge but loose other important attributes).At level 40, my scout runs with 150dps mod, 30 MA, 20% potency and a mage will have only 20% potency and may be 10% casting speed. How can this be balanced? I also logged my provisionner retired-fury and found out that his priest gear was not stamina/str leather ... I don't mind since she only cook but well is that reasonnable ?Combat issues where you character would automatically face away fom mobs.It happens often, and as a tank everyone love when a monster suddenly teleport itself in your back or in the middle of yourself.The list goes on, this is because of a lack of testing and a disregard for reports of things broken in beta. People grow tired of this type of foolishness, it just gets old.You forgot atrocious AA revamp, warden got none of their issue adressed and we sill have the AA ti improve our useless tree and the horrible cure AAs. All druid still have to waste 12 AA in charming animal abilities that they never use. Recast time on CA is still an abomination, such an abomination that I still do more damage with a fury spec and with spell casting stance.To the above poster list i should add :A disregard for any form of casual play that pushed gradually most of the non raiders to leave. Smokejumper simply told them : dude you are too slow for DOV, please go away.

Banedon_Toran

01-04-2012, 07:56 AM

Add the 31day gold recurring requirement for character tokens (i.e. for silver members it costs them $30 gold sub + $25 token to transfer server) Freeport server repeatedly crashing with no real feedback from Sony, Naggy also recently crashing in the same way. Personally I love the F2P direction, and don't begrudge SoE the need to ramp up what is available on SC Shop, I'd just like them to also address current issues more vocally and give CS more discretion to work around issues instead of only offering flat refusals to help.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 09:03 AM

<cite>Felshades wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just had two friends quit the game today because there is nothing left for them to do that isn't raid to get gear to run other zones.What SOE needs to do is start introducing dungeons.. group dungeons... that are able to be done easily with any group makeup in normal gear. Not raid gear, not drunder crafted gear... normal. rygorr. gear.I know making instances for the raid geared folks makes them happy.. but your random average group of people that don't have the best of gear or like to run with their "special" friends will end up not having anything else to do. Yes, Drunder *should* be runnable in Ry'Gorr gear. But unless you have superb skill, FPS twitch reflexes, and a precise group setup with specific classes, it isn't happening. And none of our groups ended up in that set.You're currently making everyone that isn't in raid gear(and some of us that are) run pools and ascent over and over again with no hope of getting any good gear unless they buy it because the drunder crafted stuff still isn't worth what you have to get to make it and some people(like my two friends) don't have the time to raid or make enough plat to buy loot rights.And they CERTAINLY don't have the money to buy the colossals. Much less do the instances that drop them.Group content should be accessable to everyone in some way shape or form. If you want exclusive content, make it the raids. That's ONE thing that Blizzard got right. They add with each of their raid releases group zones that are easily clearable with the gear from the prior heroics. You don't need raid gear to have a shot in hell of clearing without a precise makeup and the skills of a pro.</blockquote>I've been preaching this for years... just wait, the "L2P Scrub" group will be belittling you shortly.

Destria

01-04-2012, 10:29 AM

I don't think its a matter of L2P, but a matter of SOE to stop pandering to the 1% hardcore raider. They want more content thats not too easy for them in all their godly raid gear, give em more, harder raid zones, and stop making group dungeons require raid gear. Group content should be completeable with gear obtained through group content, not require gear obtained through raid content.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 11:17 AM

<cite>Erszebeth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think its a matter of L2P, but a matter of SOE to stop pandering to the 1% hardcore raider. They want more content thats not too easy for them in all their godly raid gear, give em more, harder raid zones, and stop making group dungeons require raid gear. Group content should be completeable with gear obtained through group content, not require gear obtained through raid content.</blockquote>But those same people are the ones who will come in here and start with the L2P Scrubs crap everytime.They are making bank selling rights to the loot that those of us who like to run instances should be able to earn on our own and that don't want the cash cow to go away.We can only hope once the next content comes out drunder will be nerfed down to the level that people wearing Ry'gorr can do since the raiders will have been given a new cash cow to play with.This is how SOE has being doing things since DoV was released.

dawy

01-04-2012, 11:50 AM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since the OP wasn't clear enough let's list a few things...AA mirrors broken with a GU where the AA trees were modified 100% due to a lack of testing and/or listening to /bug reports, and left broken for nearly 2 months. If this wasn't bad enough the past 2 times changes were made mirrors were broken, the respec capabilities were broken the past 2 times as well.Beastlord war runes took them at least 3 tries to get it, and may not even be right at this point.Pathing is still an atrocity.Itemization is still a joke.The executive producer call paying subscribers trolls because he doesn't like the feedback they have.AoD announced to be an inclusive expansion pack then midstream it is changed and outcry as to why totally ignored continuing the display of utter contempt towards the player base.Beastlord quests broken for one alignment, fixed but not really, then fixed again.Vet rewards screwed up.Fighter gear and scout gear changed and made worthless for the intended class.Combat issues where you character would automatically face away fom mobs.The list goes on, this is because of a lack of testing and a disregard for reports of things broken in beta. People grow tired of this type of foolishness, it just gets old.</blockquote>The "troll" comment was at best unprofessional at worse a complate lack of understanding of vet players wishes it was utterly pathetic in my eyes,if you cant take constructive critism then maybe you shouldnt be in that job?Everyone of your other points make a lot of sense.

Odys

01-04-2012, 11:55 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just had two friends quit the game today because there is nothing left for them to do that isn't raid to get gear to run other zones.What SOE needs to do is start introducing dungeons.. group dungeons... that are able to be done easily with any group makeup in normal gear. Not raid gear, not drunder crafted gear... normal. rygorr. gear.I know making instances for the raid geared folks makes them happy.. but your random average group of people that don't have the best of gear or like to run with their "special" friends will end up not having anything else to do. Yes, Drunder *should* be runnable in Ry'Gorr gear. But unless you have superb skill, FPS twitch reflexes, and a precise group setup with specific classes, it isn't happening. And none of our groups ended up in that set.You're currently making everyone that isn't in raid gear(and some of us that are) run pools and ascent over and over again with no hope of getting any good gear unless they buy it because the drunder crafted stuff still isn't worth what you have to get to make it and some people(like my two friends) don't have the time to raid or make enough plat to buy loot rights.And they CERTAINLY don't have the money to buy the colossals. Much less do the instances that drop them.Group content should be accessable to everyone in some way shape or form. If you want exclusive content, make it the raids. That's ONE thing that Blizzard got right. They add with each of their raid releases group zones that are easily clearable with the gear from the prior heroics. You don't need raid gear to have a shot in hell of clearing without a precise makeup and the skills of a pro.</blockquote>I've been preaching this for years... just wait, the "L2P Scrub" group will be belittling you shortly.</blockquote>It's exactly my point of view, and i know ton of people that left for similar reason. I m skilled enough to run hard content, i did drunder when almost nobody was doing it, i was in kael when giant used aoe stuns and cooperative strike (and yes finding people to come was hard). But most of the time i do prefer casual people compagny, at least they speak , at least they talk, at least we have fun. Most well oiled group are horribly boring, not even a word is exchanged but about loot or dps parse.I quite miss lot of more casual, less skilled and geared people, yes they were doing mistake but they tried and with a bit of help or one two casual friendly raiders we could succeed.Note also that the power breach between a badly equiped toon and a raid equiped one as also attained a size that is simply killing the game. The ratio is not 1,5 not even 2 but 4-5 ...

Gaealiege

01-04-2012, 12:08 PM

As Wurm called it, I definitely have to say learn to play.The good players get Drunder, HM Zek, and EoW. The not-so-good players get Kael, Velketor's, Tower of Frozen Shadows, and Crystal Caverns. That's a large enough sandbox for the sandbags. Allow the good players an arena to play in. As I've said before, and as Sony's done before, just wait until February when Siren's Grotto is released. It will be the new Drunder and the actual Drunder will be as pathetically nerfed as Kael so anyone can run it.

kahonen

01-04-2012, 12:09 PM

What I really have problems with in an awful lot of these threads is that people seem to think that "raiders" have a special kind of account which means that only they are able or allowed to raid.Anyone can raid!Or to be more precise, anyone can raid that is willing to put in the time and effort to go a stage further in the game and EARN the rewards which have historically been associated with raiding.I raid in a guild on Splitpaw and every single item I have, I've earned. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with someone else getting gear of this quality by the same means. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that simply because I, or someone else, have a particular piece of good quality gear it gives someone else a right to demand that same quality of gear without putting in the effort. We've seen regular arguments about how people can't get accepted into raiding guilds - start one! They weren't guilds given to special people at any point in time, they were started in exactly the same way as any other guild.As for SOE pandering to raiders, have you been in a hole for the past 18 months? DoV raids were broken when they were released and many remain so. Drunder raids were even more broken when they were released - some have even suggested deliberately so to slow down progress.

Lempo

01-04-2012, 12:24 PM

<cite>Felshades wrote:</cite><blockquote>20 bucks says if a thead was made where there was NO discussion whatsoever and a list was made of everything wrong with the game and why, and NO OTHER PLAYERS COMMENTED ON ANYONE ELSE'S LISTS the thread would stay put.It isn't enough that it stays, if the devs are unwilling to address the issues.As for lack of testing? How about you magically come up with a way to get everyone that actually gets in beta and on test server to exploit the crab out of everything, and then report it en masse? You guys claim that it's been reported over and over and over but when ONE person says something, it's assumed to be an isolated event. You need more reports. Also, things that work on beta can and do come to Live with bugs. Either the wrong code was pushed in, or someone hit a key and added a letter to it or something. Conditions on the beta, test, and internal servers are not the exact same thing as on Live.Are you really serious here? The beta for AoD was too short and too limited. Taking the view that one person says something it is just an isolated event is the wrong way to go about it. When DoV was in beta I discovered (noticed?) that OoA could not be completed because mobs were 'missing' in the first room and the Adjunct could not be progressed to end his concentration trance and unlock the door to the second room. I confirmed this on 2 alts I had several other players that I had been running Kael instances with confirm the same and asked them to report it, I'm not sure if all of them did but I am certain that at least 2 did. I /bugged it, I posted it on the beta forums, I even informed a GM in the game and also told a dev that I was having a PM exchange with on another issue. This could have been checked and verified in less than 3 minutes instead it was ignored left unadressed and turned out to be a much bigger issue affecting mobs in many zones dungeons and overland. It was allowed to remain and fester for well over a month when pushed live, then when fixed they had the audacity to say they had no idea on the forums, easy enough to do when the beta forums are locked and everyone doesn't have access to them. I know it is hard to get good beta testers, and effective beta testing is not easy, but jut because something is only reported by a few people, or one person simply ignore it as an isolated incident.I do however, find hilarity in how everyone is jumping at SoE thinking its some kind of doomsday conspiracy theory that they don't care about nor listen to anything we say. If you think that so strongly, then maybe you should get the point across in how they would definiately care... by leaving. Less money coming in by people leaving in droves is a pretty good way to get things looked at... but nope. Ya'll just keep complaining and paying, and there's no reason to listen to a vocal minority if they're still paying up.Nice attitude there. Is this a prelude to the resume that you are soing to be sending to SOE? I mean in one breath you say that it has to be reported by multiple people to even be considered a valid issue to look into, and in the next one you say this... People are leaving, didn't you just today make a post about how 2 of your firends left the game? No one here is preaching any doomsday conspiracies.</blockquote>

Wurm

01-04-2012, 12:51 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Wurm called it, I definitely have to say learn to play.The good players get Drunder, HM Zek, and EoW. The not-so-good players get Kael, Velketor's, Tower of Frozen Shadows, and Crystal Caverns. That's a large enough sandbox for the sandbags. Allow the good players an arena to play in. As I've said before, and as Sony's done before, just wait until February when Siren's Grotto is released. It will be the new Drunder and the actual Drunder will be as pathetically nerfed as Kael so anyone can run it.</blockquote>You are one of the people I was talking about.Good player has nothing to do with Drunder HM Zek and EoW good *cough RAID cough* gear does.I know a lot of really good players who don't raid and don't buy loot and you won't see them being accepted to go to the zones you just mentioned above.I'm in full crafted Drunderware with x2 jewerly and I don't even have 200 critmit with all my gear yellow adorned for it.I can tank Drunder 1, but only with two good healers in the group, So I don't even bother to waste my time answering when PUG groups are looking for 200+ critmit tanks for those zones. Drunder NEEDS a nerf, it should becoming as soon as they release another raider only group of instances with Western Wastes. This game has become gear focused since TSO. Knowing how to play has nothing to do with it anymore.

ObsidianNightmare

01-04-2012, 12:52 PM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I really have problems with in an awful lot of these threads is that people seem to think that "raiders" have a special kind of account which means that only they are able or allowed to raid.Anyone can raid!Or to be more precise, anyone can raid that is willing to put in the time and effort to go a stage further in the game and EARN the rewards which have historically been associated with raiding.I raid in a guild on Splitpaw and every single item I have, I've earned. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with someone else getting gear of this quality by the same means. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that simply because I, or someone else, have a particular piece of good quality gear it gives someone else a right to demand that same quality of gear without putting in the effort. We've seen regular arguments about how people can't get accepted into raiding guilds - start one! They weren't guilds given to special people at any point in time, they were started in exactly the same way as any other guild.As for SOE pandering to raiders, have you been in a hole for the past 18 months? DoV raids were broken when they were released and many remain so. Drunder raids were even more broken when they were released - some have even suggested deliberately so to slow down progress.</blockquote>The dynamic missing in your post is that there is a lack of that special kind of person or group of people in every guild that has good leadership skills. This kind of person has made an exodus from this game almost completely. What is left from the old days is half hearted, distracted and uninterested people heading guilds because they feel some kind of duty to keep things alive. Guilds who claim they are raid guilds are now constantly in a state of rebuild and leadership is shuffled around based on senority or a glimmer of interest that lasts about 2 weeks. There is a distinct lack of strong leaders left because of the above mentioned problems in this and many other threads. So while everyone can raid.. it's hard to find a guild that can do so and keep their roster intersted and organized for very long. Anyone can also L2P. But there is little encouragement from leadership/mentor types in this game anymore. Many people need that nudge to do better. Most of what you find now are people just telling each other they suck. That is what is left.Can the gap be refilled with strong leaders and encouraging mentor types? Who knows. But it sure can't if these kinds of issues persist that are listed in this and many other threads. SoE staff needs to consider putting the breaks on future developments and really concentrate on the open issues. It's been said a million times from many in this community and they still push ahead and steamroll over their own reputation and progress.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 12:57 PM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I really have problems with in an awful lot of these threads is that people seem to think that "raiders" have a special kind of account which means that only they are able or allowed to raid.Anyone can raid!Or to be more precise, anyone can raid that is willing to put in the time and effort to go a stage further in the game and EARN the rewards which have historically been associated with raiding.I raid in a guild on Splitpaw and every single item I have, I've earned. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with someone else getting gear of this quality by the same means. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that simply because I, or someone else, have a particular piece of good quality gear it gives someone else a right to demand that same quality of gear without putting in the effort. We've seen regular arguments about how people can't get accepted into raiding guilds - start one! They weren't guilds given to special people at any point in time, they were started in exactly the same way as any other guild.As for SOE pandering to raiders, have you been in a hole for the past 18 months? DoV raids were broken when they were released and many remain so. Drunder raids were even more broken when they were released - some have even suggested deliberately so to slow down progress.</blockquote>No they can't if they aren't the class being looked for to raid. And lol at starting a raiding guild. Been there done that have the emotional scars to prove it. Instead of RAIDERS wanting INSTANCES to remain out of the reach of INSTANCE players, they should focus their time and energy trying to get the RAID content fixed.INSTANCES that require RAID gear to do are also broken, something that a bunch of people who have RAID gear are in denial about.You always see the same groups of raiders running Drunder + during their raid down time, why? Because they are selling the loot that drops in there for a ton of plat. It really isn't that hard to figure out why those people don't want Drunder + fixed.

kahonen

01-04-2012, 01:00 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Wurm called it, I definitely have to say learn to play.The good players get Drunder, HM Zek, and EoW. The not-so-good players get Kael, Velketor's, Tower of Frozen Shadows, and Crystal Caverns. That's a large enough sandbox for the sandbags. Allow the good players an arena to play in. As I've said before, and as Sony's done before, just wait until February when Siren's Grotto is released. It will be the new Drunder and the actual Drunder will be as pathetically nerfed as Kael so anyone can run it.</blockquote>You are one of the people I was talking about.Good player has nothing to do with Drunder HM Zek and EoW good *cough RAID cough* gear does.I know a lot of really good players who don't raid and don't buy loot and you won't see them being accepted to go to the zones you just mentioned above.I'm in full crafted Drunderware with x2 jewerly and I don't even have 200 critmit with all my gear yellow adorned for it.I can tank Drunder 1, but only with two good healers in the group, So I don't even bother to waste my time answering when PUG groups are looking for 200+ critmit tanks for those zones. Drunder NEEDS a nerf, it should becoming as soon as they release another raider only group of instances with Western Wastes. This game has become gear focused since TSO. Knowing how to play has nothing to do with it anymore.</blockquote>That is their choice. The only thing stopping them is their unwillingness to do what is necessary to enable them to go there.Again in your case, if your CM of 200 isn't enough to do Drunder zones, get better! If you want the better rewards available in the more difficult zones, earn them.None of your post justifies in any way your demand that Drunder should be nerfed. What you are effectively admitting is that you would like the game made easier because you aren't good enough to play it as it is.And as for your totally unjustifiable statement that "Knowing how to play has nothing to do with it anymore", you really don't have a clue about what is needed to be able to progress through some of the zones currently in game.

kahonen

01-04-2012, 01:05 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I really have problems with in an awful lot of these threads is that people seem to think that "raiders" have a special kind of account which means that only they are able or allowed to raid.Anyone can raid!Or to be more precise, anyone can raid that is willing to put in the time and effort to go a stage further in the game and EARN the rewards which have historically been associated with raiding.I raid in a guild on Splitpaw and every single item I have, I've earned. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with someone else getting gear of this quality by the same means. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that simply because I, or someone else, have a particular piece of good quality gear it gives someone else a right to demand that same quality of gear without putting in the effort. We've seen regular arguments about how people can't get accepted into raiding guilds - start one! They weren't guilds given to special people at any point in time, they were started in exactly the same way as any other guild.As for SOE pandering to raiders, have you been in a hole for the past 18 months? DoV raids were broken when they were released and many remain so. Drunder raids were even more broken when they were released - some have even suggested deliberately so to slow down progress.</blockquote>No they can't if they aren't the class being looked for to raid. And lol at starting a raiding guild. Been there done that have the emotional scars to prove it. Instead of RAIDERS wanting INSTANCES to remain out of the reach of INSTANCE players, they should focus their time and energy trying to get the RAID content fixed.INSTANCES that require RAID gear to do are also broken, something that a bunch of people who have RAID gear are in denial about.You always see the same groups of raiders running Drunder + during their raid down time, why? Because they are selling the loot that drops in there for a ton of plat. It really isn't that hard to figure out why those people don't want Drunder + fixed.</blockquote>If you spent as much time in-game improving your toon as you do here whinging about how things are too hard; how you can't do this or you can't do that; how nasty raiders want everything their own way; you might be better placed to make the progress you want by earning it instead of demanding it for free.So you have the emotional scars from trying to start a raid guild? I take it you do acknowledge there is actually some work involved then?

Wurm

01-04-2012, 01:09 PM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Wurm called it, I definitely have to say learn to play.The good players get Drunder, HM Zek, and EoW. The not-so-good players get Kael, Velketor's, Tower of Frozen Shadows, and Crystal Caverns. That's a large enough sandbox for the sandbags. Allow the good players an arena to play in. As I've said before, and as Sony's done before, just wait until February when Siren's Grotto is released. It will be the new Drunder and the actual Drunder will be as pathetically nerfed as Kael so anyone can run it.</blockquote>You are one of the people I was talking about.Good player has nothing to do with Drunder HM Zek and EoW good *cough RAID cough* gear does.I know a lot of really good players who don't raid and don't buy loot and you won't see them being accepted to go to the zones you just mentioned above.I'm in full crafted Drunderware with x2 jewerly and I don't even have 200 critmit with all my gear yellow adorned for it.I can tank Drunder 1, but only with two good healers in the group, So I don't even bother to waste my time answering when PUG groups are looking for 200+ critmit tanks for those zones. Drunder NEEDS a nerf, it should becoming as soon as they release another raider only group of instances with Western Wastes. This game has become gear focused since TSO. Knowing how to play has nothing to do with it anymore.</blockquote>That is their choice. The only thing stopping them is their unwillingness to do what is necessary to enable them to go there.Again in your case, if your CM of 200 isn't enough to do Drunder zones, get better! If you want the better rewards available in the more difficult zones, earn them.None of your post justifies in any way your demand that Drunder should be nerfed. What you are effectively admitting is that you would like the game made easier because you aren't good enough to play it as it is.And as for your totally unjustifiable statement that "Knowing how to play has nothing to do with it anymore", you really don't have a clue about what is needed to be able to progress through some of the zones currently in game.</blockquote>I play a Paladin. I live in Germany... please find me a european time zone raid guild that needs new tank on my server... oh wait.Or I could you know like quit my job and raid, I'm sure my family would understand my need for "phat lootz" and support me.Your arguement is shortsighted, but you probably already knew that before posting it.And yes I do know what is needed to progress, gear now outweighs skill by quite a large margin, deny it all you want, but its the Elephant in the room that everyone sees but no one wants to talk about anymore.I have had more than my share of invites to raid tank for some of the best guilds on my server (a couple WW to be honest), as soon as I say I'm in Germany I always hear the same thing... "Dam*, thats a shame, move back to the US and we'll take you in a heartbeat.So I'm an INSTANCE tank. I'm good at what I do, but since I refuse to buy SLR I'll have to wait to run around Drunder when it finally gets fixed.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 01:11 PM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I really have problems with in an awful lot of these threads is that people seem to think that "raiders" have a special kind of account which means that only they are able or allowed to raid.Anyone can raid!Or to be more precise, anyone can raid that is willing to put in the time and effort to go a stage further in the game and EARN the rewards which have historically been associated with raiding.I raid in a guild on Splitpaw and every single item I have, I've earned. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with someone else getting gear of this quality by the same means. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that simply because I, or someone else, have a particular piece of good quality gear it gives someone else a right to demand that same quality of gear without putting in the effort. We've seen regular arguments about how people can't get accepted into raiding guilds - start one! They weren't guilds given to special people at any point in time, they were started in exactly the same way as any other guild.As for SOE pandering to raiders, have you been in a hole for the past 18 months? DoV raids were broken when they were released and many remain so. Drunder raids were even more broken when they were released - some have even suggested deliberately so to slow down progress.</blockquote>No they can't if they aren't the class being looked for to raid. And lol at starting a raiding guild. Been there done that have the emotional scars to prove it. Instead of RAIDERS wanting INSTANCES to remain out of the reach of INSTANCE players, they should focus their time and energy trying to get the RAID content fixed.INSTANCES that require RAID gear to do are also broken, something that a bunch of people who have RAID gear are in denial about.You always see the same groups of raiders running Drunder + during their raid down time, why? Because they are selling the loot that drops in there for a ton of plat. It really isn't that hard to figure out why those people don't want Drunder + fixed.</blockquote>If you spent as much time in-game improving your toon as you do here whinging about how things are too hard; how you can't do this or you can't do that; how nasty raiders want everything their own way; you might be better placed to make the progress you want by earning it instead of demanding it for free.So you have the emotional scars from trying to start a raid guild? I take it you do acknowledge there is actually some work involved then?</blockquote>You haven't a clue about me, my gear or my skill, so stop with the insults, using me as a strawman isn't going to make you right its only going to make you look silly.*edit* And asking INSTANCES to made accessible to people in INSTANCE gear is whining? LOL just LOL... yeah right.

Rhinzual

01-04-2012, 01:34 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I really have problems with in an awful lot of these threads is that people seem to think that "raiders" have a special kind of account which means that only they are able or allowed to raid.Anyone can raid!Or to be more precise, anyone can raid that is willing to put in the time and effort to go a stage further in the game and EARN the rewards which have historically been associated with raiding.I raid in a guild on Splitpaw and every single item I have, I've earned. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with someone else getting gear of this quality by the same means. What I do have a problem with is the attitude that simply because I, or someone else, have a particular piece of good quality gear it gives someone else a right to demand that same quality of gear without putting in the effort. We've seen regular arguments about how people can't get accepted into raiding guilds - start one! They weren't guilds given to special people at any point in time, they were started in exactly the same way as any other guild.As for SOE pandering to raiders, have you been in a hole for the past 18 months? DoV raids were broken when they were released and many remain so. Drunder raids were even more broken when they were released - some have even suggested deliberately so to slow down progress.</blockquote>No they can't if they aren't the class being looked for to raid. And lol at starting a raiding guild. Been there done that have the emotional scars to prove it. Instead of RAIDERS wanting INSTANCES to remain out of the reach of INSTANCE players, they should focus their time and energy trying to get the RAID content fixed.INSTANCES that require RAID gear to do are also broken, something that a bunch of people who have RAID gear are in denial about.You always see the same groups of raiders running Drunder + during their raid down time, why? Because they are selling the loot that drops in there for a ton of plat. It really isn't that hard to figure out why those people don't want Drunder + fixed.</blockquote>If you spent as much time in-game improving your toon as you do here whinging about how things are too hard; how you can't do this or you can't do that; how nasty raiders want everything their own way; you might be better placed to make the progress you want by earning it instead of demanding it for free.So you have the emotional scars from trying to start a raid guild? I take it you do acknowledge there is actually some work involved then?</blockquote>You haven't a clue about me, my gear or my skill, so stop with the insults, using me as a strawman isn't going to make you right its only going to make you look silly.*edit* And asking INSTANCES to made accessible to people in INSTANCE gear is whining? LOL just LOL... yeah right.</blockquote>Dude's got a point, why should -RAID GEAR- be required for -INSTANCES- at all?

Zorastiz

01-04-2012, 02:21 PM

Griffildur

01-04-2012, 02:25 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I play a Paladin. I live in Germany... please find me a european time zone raid guild that needs new tank on my server... oh wait.Or I could you know like quit my job and raid, I'm sure my family would understand my need for "phat lootz" and support me.Your arguement is shortsighted, but you probably already knew that before posting it.And yes I do know what is needed to progress, gear now outweighs skill by quite a large margin, deny it all you want, but its the Elephant in the room that everyone sees but no one wants to talk about anymore.I have had more than my share of invites to raid tank for some of the best guilds on my server (a couple WW to be honest), as soon as I say I'm in Germany I always hear the same thing... "Dam*, thats a shame, move back to the US and we'll take you in a heartbeat.So I'm an INSTANCE tank. I'm good at what I do, but since I refuse to buy SLR I'll have to wait to run around Drunder when it finally gets fixed.</blockquote>well, you still have options .Join a PUR , there's PUR's forming all the time, tofs x2, drunder x2, the EM x4 raids.If you can't join one, start one ...The options are there , even for you.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 02:31 PM

I do PUR once in a great while... it always means staying up until 4 to 5 am. Then going to work at 6.Not very much fun for a slight chance at an update.

Odys

01-04-2012, 02:43 PM

Raid gear was almost compulsory when Drunder came out (i know that it is now easier). We had full rygor with almost a full set of Tofsx2 items and we barely made it. Team was paladin, defiler, warden, dirge, assassin and ??? probably a mana regen. Even with anti death/thorns and the defiler massive ward (the one that put her almost at zero hp) the tank was spiking and without serenity and aoe blocker we would not had lived on at least two encounters.So we were half of a casual raid that completed TOFS2 and we got issue in an heroic instance.Today people run it with one healer "easily" but they most of the time have raid gear, and sometime hard mode gear. I did it recently and the tank was steady, it was also fast since we had people at 100-150 dps. I don't inspect people (never) but it was obvious that most of us had at least EMx4 gear.So yes raid gear is needed if you want to do it with a normal difficulty, if you don't have it them you face much higher difficulty.Indeed the funny aspect of it is that non raiders are supposed to have higher skill than raiders. But daily i just witness the opposite. Indeed we all do that, when i run ascent / kael i don't take care anymore, we just rush and barely apply any strat.The solution to the problem would be similar to the one used for PVP, raid stats that would only be active in x4 zones.This should be combined with attractive loot from heroic instances.This may kill the raid activity, if people only do it for loot. But i don't think so. I have fun in raids, as long as we don't farm. And my issue with them is more the fact that you have a schedule and a roaster.

kahonen

01-04-2012, 07:51 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do PUR once in a great while... it always means staying up until 4 to 5 am. Then going to work at 6.Not very much fun for a slight chance at an update.</blockquote>You still have choices. You claim to live in Germany yet you are clearly not on a Euro server. It's your choice not to move. There are even new raid guilds starting up on Splitpaw and they are recruiting tanks.I've just finished one of my 3 raids this week and it's now 10:49 PM. I don't have to sit up until 5AM. But I made a choice to raid on a Euro server.Nobody is stopping you raiding but you. It's your choice to stay where you are.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 08:08 PM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do PUR once in a great while... it always means staying up until 4 to 5 am. Then going to work at 6.Not very much fun for a slight chance at an update.</blockquote>You still have choices. You claim to live in Germany yet you are clearly not on a Euro server. It's your choice not to move. There are even new raid guilds starting up on Splitpaw and they are recruiting tanks.I've just finished one of my 3 raids this week and it's now 10:49 PM. I don't have to sit up until 5AM. But I made a choice to raid on a Euro server.Nobody is stopping you raiding but you. It's your choice to stay where you are.</blockquote>When I started playing the game I was in the US and in a raid guild. Its called the military way of life... go figure.And you are still discussing raiding like it has anything to do with the fact that the vast majority of the players now doing drunder + are in raid gear. And most of the people in instance gear, who the zones where meant for, are not doing drunder + at all.That my friend is what is wrong and needs to be fixed.But don't worry, Western Wastes are coming and I'm sure you and the rest of the raiders chanting the "L2P Scrub" drivel will be once again handed instance content for you to play in during downtime.And no I'm not going to move from the server I started playing on in 2004, have friends on, have a good reputation on, to a red-headed step child server located in Europe just to raid, your whole arguement is silly.

kahonen

01-04-2012, 08:17 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do PUR once in a great while... it always means staying up until 4 to 5 am. Then going to work at 6.Not very much fun for a slight chance at an update.</blockquote>You still have choices. You claim to live in Germany yet you are clearly not on a Euro server. It's your choice not to move. There are even new raid guilds starting up on Splitpaw and they are recruiting tanks.I've just finished one of my 3 raids this week and it's now 10:49 PM. I don't have to sit up until 5AM. But I made a choice to raid on a Euro server.Nobody is stopping you raiding but you. It's your choice to stay where you are.</blockquote>When I started playing the game I was in the US and in a raid guild. Its called the military way of life... go figure.And you are still discussing raiding like it has anything to do with the fact that the vast majority of the players now doing drunder + are in raid gear. And the people in instance gear who the zones where meant for are not doing drunder + at all.That my friend is what is wrong and needs to be fixed.But don't worry, Western wastes are coming and I'm sure you and the rest of the raiders chanting the "L2P Scrub" drivel will be once again handed instance content for you to play in during downtime.And no I'm not going to move from the server I started playing on in 2004, have friends on, have a good reputation on, to a red-headed step child server located in Europe just to raid, your whole arguement is silly.</blockquote>What makes you think these zones were meant for people in instance gear when the people you talk about having problems are clearly not ready for them? The whole of DoV was based on clearly defined progression. The simple fact is that if people can't do Drunder zones because they don't have the gear, they are trying to jump steps in that progression. THAT is the problem.On a similar note, what are raiders (also paying subscribers) supposed to do while they have lockout timers on the raid zones? Or should they only be allowed to raid and do nothing when they are locked out?And as for this "L2P Scrub" garbage, it's strange how I've been playing since the game was released yet never heard the expression until it was invented by non-raiders in threads like this one.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 08:28 PM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do PUR once in a great while... it always means staying up until 4 to 5 am. Then going to work at 6.Not very much fun for a slight chance at an update.</blockquote>You still have choices. You claim to live in Germany yet you are clearly not on a Euro server. It's your choice not to move. There are even new raid guilds starting up on Splitpaw and they are recruiting tanks.I've just finished one of my 3 raids this week and it's now 10:49 PM. I don't have to sit up until 5AM. But I made a choice to raid on a Euro server.Nobody is stopping you raiding but you. It's your choice to stay where you are.</blockquote>When I started playing the game I was in the US and in a raid guild. Its called the military way of life... go figure.And you are still discussing raiding like it has anything to do with the fact that the vast majority of the players now doing drunder + are in raid gear. And the people in instance gear who the zones where meant for are not doing drunder + at all.That my friend is what is wrong and needs to be fixed.But don't worry, Western wastes are coming and I'm sure you and the rest of the raiders chanting the "L2P Scrub" drivel will be once again handed instance content for you to play in during downtime.And no I'm not going to move from the server I started playing on in 2004, have friends on, have a good reputation on, to a red-headed step child server located in Europe just to raid, your whole arguement is silly.</blockquote>What makes you think these zones were meant for people in instance gear when the people you talk about having problems are clearly not ready for them? The whole of DoV was based on clearly defined progression. The simple fact is that if people can't do Drunder zones because they don't have the gear, they are trying to jump steps in that progression. THAT is the problem.On a similar note, what are raiders (also paying subscribers) supposed to do while they have lockout timers on the raid zones? Or should they only be allowed to raid and do nothing when they are locked out?And as for this "L2P Scrub" garbage, it's strange how I've been playing since the game was released yet never heard the expression until it was invented by non-raiders in threads like this one.</blockquote>All the people I'm talking about are in Kael + Ry'gorr (and for the most part ToSx2) you know where you end up in progression if you follow the instances step by step.And if you haven't heard "L2P Scrub" before, then you haven't been in many forum threads discussing this type of issue.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 08:32 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Wurm called it, I definitely have to say learn to play.The good players get Drunder, HM Zek, and EoW. The not-so-good players get Kael, Velketor's, Tower of Frozen Shadows, and Crystal Caverns. That's a large enough sandbox for the sandbags. Allow the good players an arena to play in. As I've said before, and as Sony's done before, just wait until February when Siren's Grotto is released. It will be the new Drunder and the actual Drunder will be as pathetically nerfed as Kael so anyone can run it.</blockquote>Here is an example of the L2P Scrub attitude... you must have skipped over his response since you clearly agree with it.Raiders can do whatever the heck they want when not raiding.But limiting the good players who did follow the INSTANCE progression to stay in Kael or below (most of whom are sick to death of them and want to move on) because the gear they received following THE INSTANCE PROGRESSION isn't good enough is ignorant and arrogant.Oh yeah, the instance players could always raid to get the gear... Or they could better yet buy SLR... oh wait, see what I did there.BUT THAT ISN'T PROGRESSION!

kahonen

01-04-2012, 08:48 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Wurm called it, I definitely have to say learn to play.The good players get Drunder, HM Zek, and EoW. The not-so-good players get Kael, Velketor's, Tower of Frozen Shadows, and Crystal Caverns. That's a large enough sandbox for the sandbags. Allow the good players an arena to play in. As I've said before, and as Sony's done before, just wait until February when Siren's Grotto is released. It will be the new Drunder and the actual Drunder will be as pathetically nerfed as Kael so anyone can run it.</blockquote>Here is an example of the L2P Scrub attitude... you must have skipped over his response since you clearly agree with it.Raiders can do whatever the heck they want when not raiding.But limiting the good players who did follow the INSTANCE progression to stay in Kael or below (most of whom are sick to death of them and want to move on) because the gear they received following THE INSTANCE PROGRESSION isn't good enough is ignorant and arrogant.Oh yeah, the instance players could always raid to get the gear... Or they could better yet buy SLR... oh wait, see what I did there.BUT THAT ISN'T PROGRESSION!</blockquote>Simple statement of fact:If, as you said earlier, you have around 200 CM and you can't do Drunder I'd suggest the fault isn't in the game but those playing it. Either you simply can't play a tank or you need to group with different people.As I said what seems like days ago, if people can't play their class and find content too difficult that is no reason to make it simpler and reduce the challenge for those that can manage it. Perhaps you need to start a new thread demanding SOE create an additional option on the doors that you can click and be given the loot for no effort at all.Oh, just as an aside, I actually said I'd never heard the expression "L2P Scrub". I don't see where that is in the quote you posted from a different thread. Obviously, I've seen the attitude before, in some cases it's more than justified.I'm out of here. I've wasted enough time on this pointless argument. I need to go count my plat and polish my shiny new armour I got on the raid earlier.

erratic

01-04-2012, 09:12 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Wurm called it, I definitely have to say learn to play.The good players get Drunder, HM Zek, and EoW. The not-so-good players get Kael, Velketor's, Tower of Frozen Shadows, and Crystal Caverns. That's a large enough sandbox for the sandbags. Allow the good players an arena to play in. As I've said before, and as Sony's done before, just wait until February when Siren's Grotto is released. It will be the new Drunder and the actual Drunder will be as pathetically nerfed as Kael so anyone can run it.</blockquote>Here is an example of the L2P Scrub attitude... you must have skipped over his response since you clearly agree with it.Raiders can do whatever the heck they want when not raiding.But limiting the good players who did follow the INSTANCE progression to stay in Kael or below (most of whom are sick to death of them and want to move on) because the gear they received following THE INSTANCE PROGRESSION isn't good enough is ignorant and arrogant.Oh yeah, the instance players could always raid to get the gear... Or they could better yet buy SLR... oh wait, see what I did there.BUT THAT ISN'T PROGRESSION!</blockquote>You don't need raid gear to do drunder. I know several groups that do it with 0 raid gear. They are organized skilled players who chose not to raid. That is the audience for drunder. Its not a large audience, but they deserve content just like any other group of people.Telling yourself you must have raid gear to do a zone that others have done without raid gear shows that if anyone is showing ignorance or arrogance it is you.If all content is able to be done by the masses then what is there to look forward to? Like others have said wait until february. Drunder will be nerfed to be casual friendly, and new zones will replace the top teir. In another 6 months the cycle will repeat it is how it has always worked.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 10:02 PM

I am doing drunder. In a group of friends (who mostly just happen to be in raid gear).What I am not doing is PUGGING drunder when people are looking for a 200+ critmit tank.Reading comprehesion... its a skill that you aquire by actually reading what someone has wrote.

bks6721

01-04-2012, 10:02 PM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I play a Paladin. I live in Germany... please find me a european time zone raid guild that needs new tank on my server... oh wait.Or I could you know like quit my job and raid, I'm sure my family would understand my need for "phat lootz" and support me.Your arguement is shortsighted, but you probably already knew that before posting it.And yes I do know what is needed to progress, gear now outweighs skill by quite a large margin, deny it all you want, but its the Elephant in the room that everyone sees but no one wants to talk about anymore.I have had more than my share of invites to raid tank for some of the best guilds on my server (a couple WW to be honest), as soon as I say I'm in Germany I always hear the same thing... "Dam*, thats a shame, move back to the US and we'll take you in a heartbeat.So I'm an INSTANCE tank. I'm good at what I do, but since I refuse to buy SLR I'll have to wait to run around Drunder when it finally gets fixed.</blockquote>well, you still have options .Join a PUR , there's PUR's forming all the time, tofs x2, drunder x2, the EM x4 raids.If you can't join one, start one ...The options are there , even for you.</blockquote>many people, myself included, would rather quit the game entirely than raid. The fact that 'raiding' is part of the heroic progression is wrong. If my guild of friend's, who ONLY groups can't run 6 man dungeons the game won't live long. This debate isn't about my playstyle vs yours. Its about keeping players in the game and SOE is failing miserably at it right now.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 10:10 PM

<cite>erratic wrote:</cite><blockquote>If all content is able to be done by the masses then what is there to look forward to? Like others have said wait until february. Drunder will be nerfed to be casual friendly, and new zones will replace the top teir. In another 6 months the cycle will repeat it is how it has always worked.</blockquote>It has nothing to do with the masses, and "the way its always worked" is fine when SOE releases new content on a timely schedule. Something they are no longer doing.I'd rather have more people in the gear from Kael and Ry'gorr exploring Drunder than being bored and quiting. But yeah thats just me I quess.*edit* Or after reading the post above mine its not just me... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

bks6721

01-04-2012, 10:11 PM

<cite>erratic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Wurm called it, I definitely have to say learn to play.The good players get Drunder, HM Zek, and EoW. The not-so-good players get Kael, Velketor's, Tower of Frozen Shadows, and Crystal Caverns. That's a large enough sandbox for the sandbags. Allow the good players an arena to play in. As I've said before, and as Sony's done before, just wait until February when Siren's Grotto is released. It will be the new Drunder and the actual Drunder will be as pathetically nerfed as Kael so anyone can run it.</blockquote>Here is an example of the L2P Scrub attitude... you must have skipped over his response since you clearly agree with it.Raiders can do whatever the heck they want when not raiding.But limiting the good players who did follow the INSTANCE progression to stay in Kael or below (most of whom are sick to death of them and want to move on) because the gear they received following THE INSTANCE PROGRESSION isn't good enough is ignorant and arrogant.Oh yeah, the instance players could always raid to get the gear... Or they could better yet buy SLR... oh wait, see what I did there.BUT THAT ISN'T PROGRESSION!</blockquote>You don't need raid gear to do drunder. I know several groups that do it with 0 raid gear. They are organized skilled players who chose not to raid. That is the audience for drunder. Its not a large audience, but they deserve content just like any other group of people.Telling yourself you must have raid gear to do a zone that others have done without raid gear shows that if anyone is showing ignorance or arrogance it is you.If all content is able to be done by the masses then what is there to look forward to? Like others have said wait until february. Drunder will be nerfed to be casual friendly, and new zones will replace the top teir. In another 6 months the cycle will repeat it is how it has always worked.</blockquote>You do realize that the audience you refer to are paying customers right? Intentionally reducing CUSTOMERS is a poor business choice.I've been turned down for Kael groups because I can't parse 120k. The gear requirements are coming from the 'elite' players who think everyong should raid or bugger off.

Wurm

01-04-2012, 10:14 PM

I want to see the videos of 6 people doing all of drunder with 0 raid gear BTW... Don't mind that I won't hold my breath while waiting on the links.

Odys

01-05-2012, 12:21 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Wurm called it, I definitely have to say learn to play.The good players get Drunder, HM Zek, and EoW. The not-so-good players get Kael, Velketor's, Tower of Frozen Shadows, and Crystal Caverns. That's a large enough sandbox for the sandbags. Allow the good players an arena to play in. As I've said before, and as Sony's done before, just wait until February when Siren's Grotto is released. It will be the new Drunder and the actual Drunder will be as pathetically nerfed as Kael so anyone can run it.</blockquote>You are one of the people I was talking about.Good player has nothing to do with Drunder HM Zek and EoW good *cough RAID cough* gear does.I know a lot of really good players who don't raid and don't buy loot and you won't see them being accepted to go to the zones you just mentioned above.I'm in full crafted Drunderware with x2 jewerly and I don't even have 200 critmit with all my gear yellow adorned for it.I can tank Drunder 1, but only with two good healers in the group, So I don't even bother to waste my time answering when PUG groups are looking for 200+ critmit tanks for those zones. Drunder NEEDS a nerf, it should becoming as soon as they release another raider only group of instances with Western Wastes. This game has become gear focused since TSO. Knowing how to play has nothing to do with it anymore.</blockquote>Their version of learn to play is as follows :Learn to Play only with highly geared peoples and in optimal groups in order to optimize your risk/reward ratio.It's very far from what i usually do, indeed i almost do the opposite. Indeed heavily geared people tend to be on average (it's not a generality) much less nice than the average players. I never witnessed any particular skill, and i often got group with much better playstyle and less success only due to inferior gear. Indeed in most cases gear bypass any form of subtility.The only difference between a dps doing 70K and one doing 300 is the group make up and the gear, oh well skill probably make the difference between 270 and 300.

Felshades

01-05-2012, 12:27 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want to see the videos of 6 people doing all of drunder with 0 raid gear BTW... Don't mind that I won't hold my breath while waiting on the links.</blockquote>Apparently it can be done but you need to have lightning fast reflexes and an exact group setup. No subsitutions. It was like inq, mystic, assassin dirge coercer then the tank.

Wurm

01-05-2012, 01:26 AM

Just got done raiding with some friends... its now 5:24 am. Good thing I have vacation. And wonder of wonders I even got a drop out of the 8 em mobs we killed.

Wurm

01-05-2012, 01:29 AM

<cite>Felshades wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want to see the videos of 6 people doing all of drunder with 0 raid gear BTW... Don't mind that I won't hold my breath while waiting on the links.</blockquote>Apparently it can be done but you need to have lightning fast reflexes and an exact group setup. No subsitutions. It was like inq, mystic, assassin dirge coercer then the tank.</blockquote>Ahhh yes two healers makes a big difference. Still want to see it in real life. When it comes to such things I'm from Missouri <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Griffildur

01-05-2012, 09:19 AM

<cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>many people, myself included, would rather quit the game entirely than raid. The fact that 'raiding' is part of the heroic progression is wrong. If my guild of friend's, who ONLY groups can't run 6 man dungeons the game won't live long. This debate isn't about my playstyle vs yours. Its about keeping players in the game and SOE is failing miserably at it right now.</blockquote>Hold on a sec, you make no sense now. I only mentioned those options because you made it sounds like you cannot join a raid guild because of where you are from. Now you say you don't want to raid at all.if all you want is solo casual play , go for it. if you want group instances you have lots of those, Ascent, pools, rime, kael instances and some drunder as well. Yes it can be done without raid gear even though you make it sound like it's impossible.If anything this game has a lot of options for solo and casual play styles. it's perfectly fine to have a few instances which are harder, the game caters to everyone not just you. If you refuse to raid, that's fine and your choice but you just locked yourself out of some upgrades, which can be obtained for free, not for thousands of plats. It's what PUR's are for.You, by your own choice, play a limited part of the game. Well, that's your choice, accept it and move on.

Griffildur

01-05-2012, 09:22 AM

<cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You do realize that the audience you refer to are paying customers right? Intentionally reducing CUSTOMERS is a poor business choice.I've been turned down for Kael groups because I can't parse 120k. The gear requirements are coming from the 'elite' players who think everyong should raid or bugger off.</blockquote>Why don't you start your own groups then ? Start with your friends, guild mates etc and fill up the rest and go ahead.The people who denied you a spot, want to mow own as fast as possible not to drag you around and play the game for you.So, bottom line, form your own groups, problem solved. It works much better than coming here to complain how the big bad wolves don't want you. Of course they don't, you're not a big bad wolf, but you can still play with the lambs as long as you can take respinsability for once and do something about it.

Wurm

01-05-2012, 12:04 PM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>many people, myself included, would rather quit the game entirely than raid. The fact that 'raiding' is part of the heroic progression is wrong. If my guild of friend's, who ONLY groups can't run 6 man dungeons the game won't live long. This debate isn't about my playstyle vs yours. Its about keeping players in the game and SOE is failing miserably at it right now.</blockquote>Hold on a sec, you make no sense now. I only mentioned those options because you made it sounds like you cannot join a raid guild because of where you are from. Now you say you don't want to raid at all.if all you want is solo casual play , go for it. if you want group instances you have lots of those, Ascent, pools, rime, kael instances and some drunder as well. Yes it can be done without raid gear even though you make it sound like it's impossible.If anything this game has a lot of options for solo and casual play styles. it's perfectly fine to have a few instances which are harder, the game caters to everyone not just you. If you refuse to raid, that's fine and your choice but you just locked yourself out of some upgrades, which can be obtained for free, not for thousands of plats. It's what PUR's are for.You, by your own choice, play a limited part of the game. Well, that's your choice, accept it and move on.</blockquote>Once again instances should be done using instance gear. It really is that simple.

Gaealiege

01-05-2012, 12:24 PM

I don't know how many times I have to type this.My group cleared Drunder in purely gear we obtained with just us six. It is in fact possible in Ry'gorr, but if you expect to enter Strategist's without doing Spire of Rage over and over to make certain each player has those slots of Drunder gear then you're crazy.We gained the Drunder gear back when you received 3 or 6 ore. I have no clue what people are kvetching about today.If you want to start a rant about how you can't clear Siren's Grotto without raid gear, I can't argue against you as I'm now wearing HM gear. We'll have to run our Drunder geared alts through and see what it looks like. However I can guarantee you, Drunder was clearable prior to several of the nerfs, and especially now with legendary gear on. (Also if you can clear even a single Drunder instance you can take that exact group and kill several named in ToFS x2. Once you're fully Drunder geared you can take that 1 group and clear through to the Arch Confessor in Citadel of V'uul. That's what we did.)