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View Full Version : Now that DYOD has completely lost its momentum...


Grumble69
01-02-2012, 05:21 PM
<p>Devs--please either get bold, serious, and prompt with DYOD.  Or just pull the plug on it.  If you just dink around with occasional fixes over the coming months, this is just going to fizzle out.   We want to like it.  But this has the air of novelty like the BGs.  I know there was a holiday break and all.  But a month in the MMORPG world is a pretty long time.  A lot of folks have tried it, dismissed it, and not returned.</p>

CatamanderEQ2
01-02-2012, 08:43 PM
<p>The research reducers and food are pretty good for DM rewards and should produce some traffic into dungeons, though we could use more variety there.</p><p>What I would really like to see are a few more different kinds of mounts and the addition of DM-bought prestige housing.  500 was probably far too cheap for the flying mount and I can see mounts with better stats in the 1k to 2k marks range.  Prestige housing for 5k marks would be a nice addition that would drive some traffic into dungeons.</p><p>I'm wary to recommend a lot of items that can overtake the mastercrafted market, but thinking about how we add to the DM rewards is key, in my opinion.  Obviously good armor and weapons would drive lots of people into the dungeons but would also crush the tradeskillers' MC market.  The food and research reducers and existing weapons and armor already open that door, but I'm pretty hesitant to recommend walking through it.  I'd rather we looked for other rewards.  Rare harvestables perhaps?  </p><p>Here's an idea: make reactants purchasable with dungeon marks on an escalating (logarathmic) formula:</p><p>90: 5000 marks</p><p>80: 2500 marks</p><p>70: 1000 marks</p><p>60: 500 marks</p><p>50: 250 makrs</p><p>40: 125 marks</p><p>30: 75 marks</p><p>20: 50 marks</p><p>10: 25 marks</p><p>You do that and I bet you the dungeons would be packed with people tearing through them to earn the reactants.</p><p>I can solo 200 marks an hour pretty easily, so 5000/200 = 25 hours of dungeon running for one colossal reactant.</p><p>Get a group together and you could cut that probably by as much as half.</p><p>If that seems to fast, just double the prices and make the colossals cost 10k, etc.</p><p>In any case, we can do all the good story work in the world, they can give use the magic mouths and quest NPCs and so on, but if the rewards are not sufficient, the players will not run them.  They have to be worth doing.  Right now, there are a couple decent items for players to buy, but after a few thousand marks the only things left are things for dungeon makers.  That pretty well kills the need to run the dungeons for most people and kills the reason to build them for the rest of us.</p>

Novusod
01-02-2012, 09:40 PM
<p>That is a really good idea.</p><p>Thumbs up.</p>

Maroger
01-03-2012, 12:13 AM
<p>+1</p>

Cutharie
01-03-2012, 12:36 AM
<p><cite>CatamanderEQ2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's an idea: make reactants purchasable with dungeon marks on an escalating (logarathmic) formula:</p><p>90: 5000 marks</p><p>80: 2500 marks</p><p>70: 1000 marks</p><p>60: 500 marks</p><p>50: 250 makrs</p><p>40: 125 marks</p><p>30: 75 marks</p><p>20: 50 marks</p><p>10: 25 marks</p><p>You do that and I bet you the dungeons would be packed with people tearing through them to earn the reactants.</p><p>I can solo 200 marks an hour pretty easily, so 5000/200 = 25 hours of dungeon running for one colossal reactant.</p><p>Get a group together and you could cut that probably by as much as half.</p><p>If that seems to fast, just double the prices and make the colossals cost 10k, etc.</p></blockquote><p>Awesome idea. Definitely +1.</p>

DancingFirefly
01-03-2012, 01:14 AM
<p>+1 to the idea. This might help with the issue I've encountered where high level characters will chrono down and hog public instances for the reactant drops.</p><p>It's getting to be very tiring to see 3-4 high level characters running around and killing things when you're trying to get AA and XP.</p>

Kizee
01-05-2012, 08:40 PM
<p><cite>DancingFirefly wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>+1 to the idea. This might help with the issue I've encountered where high level characters will chrono down and hog public instances for the reactant drops.</p><p>It's getting to be very tiring to see 3-4 high level characters running around and killing things when you're trying to get AA and XP.</p></blockquote><p>Mmmmm..thats would be the double exp days doing that...not the reactants.</p><p>IDK anybody that would want the lower level reactants since you outlevel the gear they make so fast.</p>

feldon30
01-06-2012, 06:05 AM
<p>Trying to add awesome rewards to a flagging feature is the tail wagging the dog.</p><p>Dungeon Maker dungeons should be FUN enough that people would play them even if the rewards are lacklustre. For us to create captivating dungeons requires having enough tools and customization such that our player-made dungeons are at least as engaging and interesting as SOE-produced ones. Just one idea I had:</p><ul><li>Use the "Marking" system to allow us to build Encounters. For instance all mobs you mark with a "1" are part of encounter 1, repeat for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, skull, star, green flame, and sword.</li></ul><p>They said they didn't want to add a scripting system, but look at how many house decorators are using a third party program or editing INI files directly to get effects they want. We can handle a little complexity!</p><p>By the way, I actually didn't have a problem with the Avatar system PROVIDED they added <strong>6-8 fully realized, fully fleshed out characters with full hotbars of spells and combat arts, some degree of customization, real equipment slots, NPC text, quirks, etc.</strong> If they'd made them interesting characters we wanted to play, there would have been less outcry. Instead, they gave us mobs with 4 spells a piece. Not surprisingly, nobody wants to run dungeons with a gnoll, orc, or other cannon fodder with a whopping 4 spells. *Yawn!*</p><p>Fortunately, SOE caved and is allowing players to enter DM dungeons with their own characters.</p>

Littlelove
01-09-2012, 02:48 AM
<p><cite>CatamanderEQ2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>80: 2500 marks</p></blockquote><p>Considering these sell for around 6-7 plat, 2500 marks is a ridiculous amount of time spent for this.  Lvl 80 reactants should be around 100-200 marks.</p>

msgnomer
01-09-2012, 06:43 AM
<p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Devs--please either get bold, serious, and prompt with DYOD.  Or just pull the plug on it.  If you just dink around with occasional fixes over the coming months, this is just going to fizzle out.   We want to like it.  But this has the air of novelty like the BGs.  I know there was a holiday break and all.  But a month in the MMORPG world is a pretty long time.  A lot of folks have tried it, dismissed it, and not returned.</p></blockquote><p>I'm all in favor of making suggestions to expand and increase options in the dungeon maker, but I disagree with your premise that this feature has somehow lost its momentum.  I can't even come close to keeping up with visiting the new dungeons that crop up daily.  I haven't even finished my first dungeon design.  I've seen items added and features in test.  Progress looks pretty decent to me.  But suggestions for new ideas or fixes are always good.</p>

Shawnyve
01-10-2012, 03:45 AM
<p>One change, and Dungeon Maker goes from lacklustre to epic.</p><p>Take the chronicle code for SWG (I know you've got it lying around somewhere), and port it over to EQII. Let the dungeons be part of quests we can design and put out in the open world for characters to follow.  You can use set spawn points for DYOD entrances, two or three for each major overland zone would be plenty. True, we don't have "communicators", but you could either allow attaching dialog to specially placed NPC's or just use the chat bubble things anyway and pretend the NPC walks on and walks off the screen. I think most players would be able to "suspend disbelief" a bit for the gain.</p><p>Player designed overworld questing combined with the "portable zone" DYOD's would put EQII way on top of the map for player generated content.</p>

Grumble69
01-17-2012, 03:21 AM
<p>So what's the current opinion?  Has anyone in the past month seen one message along the lines of "LFG for DYOD?"  I'm still of the belief that these are a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">complete epic fail</span>.  The best case scenario is that you have solo SKs & Warlocks running these for the tokens.  But a year from now, I honestly do not see even 1% of the gaming population wasting their time on these.</p>

Raknid
01-17-2012, 11:41 AM
<p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So what's the current opinion?  Has anyone in the past month seen one message along the lines of "LFG for DYOD?"  I'm still of the belief that these are a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">complete epic fail</span>.  The best case scenario is that you have solo SKs & Warlocks running these for the tokens.  But a year from now, I honestly do not see even 1% of the gaming population wasting their time on these.</p></blockquote><p>You have it all wrong. They didn't create this so players would be entertained. If they had wanted to do that they would have GIVEN us all the tools and decorations in order to create fully fleshed out and engaging dungeons. SOE simply wants to make money of SC related sales, and as long as they are making the projected amounts they could care less whether these are utilized by 5% or 50% of the players. Why else would the decorations be be bundled and some prices increased. The packages were bundled so the DM cost could go up and people would have to spend SC. for example, you might run dungeons to get 200 marks at a time to buy the individual decorations, but they are counting on impatience so you will spend the SC instead of waiting until you have the 900 DMs for the package.</p>

General_Info
01-17-2012, 12:11 PM
<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You have it all wrong. They didn't create this so players would be entertained. If they had wanted to do that they would have GIVEN us all the tools and decorations in order to create fully fleshed out and engaging dungeons. SOE simply wants to make money of SC related sales, and as long as they are making the projected amounts they could care less whether these are utilized by 5% or 50% of the players. Why else would the decorations be be bundled and some prices increased. The packages were bundled so the DM cost could go up and people would have to spend SC. for example, you might run dungeons to get 200 marks at a time to buy the individual decorations, but they are counting on impatience so you will spend the SC instead of waiting until you have the 900 DMs for the package.</p></blockquote><p>This. galaxies had a similar system to DM but it was open-world story telling except you started out with an empty toolbox the difference is DM is a money sink and galaxies chroincle system was a time sink if you wanted something in your story you had to kill the right NPC type for a few charges of that npc.</p><p>If they really wanted us to entertain ourselves with the DM stuff they would have given everyone most of the tools straight up and put the rest in as rare loot in instances, raids and other content.</p>

Mary the Prophetess
01-17-2012, 12:20 PM
<p>One problem I see, both for Dungeon Maker and Player Housing, is not from any lack of interest.  Rather, it is the opposite; an overwhelming number of entries for both.  So many that it is virtually impossible to visit even a fraction of them.</p><p>They come up and are posted so often, that many never get the attention they deserve.  By the time they have been pushed back to page two or three with only one or two 'likes', (or none), they have pretty much been relegated to the trash heap; unfairly in my opinion.</p><p>This problem only grows over time as more and more Dungeons and Homes are published.  The result is that players tend to go to the Hall of Fame section and those Homes or Dungeons are the ones they visit, rather than anything from page six with zero views.</p><p>I'm not sure if anything can be done about it, but I am sure it is discouraging for a player that has spent a huge amount of time (and perhaps some considerable expense) to design a unique House or Dungeon, only to have it ignored.</p><p>In truth, it is worse for Dungeons than for Houses, because Dungeons require anywhere from thirty minutes to two hours to go through them.  A two hour time investment that reaps 120-250 tokens is a poor effort/reward ratio considering what the tokens will buy.  I believe that perhaps the rewards need to be tweaked up a bit to make them more desirable.</p><p>Additionally, allowing a better, (longer), description of the House or Dungeon, with perhaps two or three thumbnails instead of a single screen shot, may give a player a better idea of what to expect.</p>

Fugazl
01-17-2012, 08:14 PM
<p>Allow us the ability to give mobs player loot, Id clear my banks and brokers on all my pack rats. </p><p>I would deff toss master and such  in a pool of items at vendor price.....or just to give me a quick way to dump my bags.</p><p>With Erollisi day ahead I would love to add candy and letters and a large meaty bone for people...to loot.</p>

Deveryn
01-17-2012, 11:35 PM
<p><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>One problem I see, both for Dungeon Maker and Player Housing, is not from any lack of interest.  Rather, it is the opposite; an overwhelming number of entries for both.  So many that it is virtually impossible to visit even a fraction of them.</p><p>They come up and are posted so often, that many never get the attention they deserve.  By the time they have been pushed back to page two or three with only one or two 'likes', (or none), they have pretty much been relegated to the trash heap; unfairly in my opinion.</p><p>This problem only grows over time as more and more Dungeons and Homes are published.  The result is that players tend to go to the Hall of Fame section and those Homes or Dungeons are the ones they visit, rather than anything from page six with zero views.</p><p>I'm not sure if anything can be done about it, but I am sure it is discouraging for a player that has spent a huge amount of time (and perhaps some considerable expense) to design a unique House or Dungeon, only to have it ignored.</p><p>In truth, it is worse for Dungeons than for Houses, because Dungeons require anywhere from thirty minutes to two hours to go through them.  A two hour time investment that reaps 120-250 tokens is a poor effort/reward ratio considering what the tokens will buy.  I believe that perhaps the rewards need to be tweaked up a bit to make them more desirable.</p><p>Additionally, allowing a better, (longer), description of the House or Dungeon, with perhaps two or three thumbnails instead of a single screen shot, may give a player a better idea of what to expect.</p></blockquote><p>Very true. I find myself going back and forth on whether or not I want to bother making a dungeon because I want to put the time to make it interesting, making the place look different. People dump 300 mobs in a room and call it a day. Those are the top dungeons, but I find them annoying as placement can be too close. Apparently, it's best if I spend marks to SC to solo some of them. What kind of nonsense is that? What motivation do I even have to continue with mine?</p>

Grumble69
01-18-2012, 02:01 AM
<p>Yet I'm on CB and looking at the "Hall of Fame".  The top dungeon has a <sarcasm> whopping 34 likes. </sarcasm>  2nd most is 33.  And then there are a handful with 10-11.  This isn't success imo.  I don't buy the idea of it being a money sink either.  If folks quit showing up, then folks quit wasting their money designing these things.</p><p>So let's talk money--cool looking mounts & wings?  Yeah, that's profitable to SOE.  I can see the $$$ in-game they're making.  DYOD?  ...it's quite honestly garbage.  And I have no idea what they think a 25% increase in tokens is going to accomplish.  If you're slightly off the mark, you give it a bump (like 25%).  But they are completely off their stinking rocker.</p>

Mary the Prophetess
01-18-2012, 04:37 AM
<p>While Dungeon Maker has a few shortcomings, I also believe it has much potential.  I see it as a very positive direction for the EQ franchise.  As it is expanded and the time investment-risk-reward ratio is adjusted, and the bugs are ironed out, I believe it will be a trend setter for other MMOs.</p><p>The 33 'likes' you experienced on Crushbone server are also mirrored on Antonia Bayle where the lead dungeon has 39 'likes'.</p><p>However, I would hesitate to characterize this as evidence of the failure of this feature for several reasons.  First, the feature is still in its infancy.  Wait another six weeks or so, and those numbers will increase.  Second, MMOs in general, and EQ2 in particular, make an enormous demand on a players time.  Leveling an adventurer, acquiring AAs, crafting, harvesting, guild activities, raids, new zones and instances to explore, city festivals, holidays, enchantments, and on and on. There is simply more to do than most players have time for.</p><p>The seemingly low numbers for Dungeon Maker can also be said for most of the zones in the game.  Norrath has gotten larger and larger, and more and more features have been added over the years, but the basic market share has remained relatively constant.  Going F2P has increased that somewhat, though how significant an increase it represents I do not know.  The servers are full for the most part, but there are also fewer servers.  The point is that the number of things for players to do has increased greatly, while the number of players available to do them has not. </p><p>Not every player will choose to participate in every game function.  Just because the majority of players do not raid, does not mean that raiding should be removed as a feature, and the same applies to crafting, or PvP, or decorating, or roleplay, or Dungeon Maker.  It may not be your cup of tea, but it is appealing to a certain percentage of the player base, and I count myself as one of them.</p><p>Is it perfect?  Certainly not.  Can improvements be made?  Of course.  This is a work in progress, and I for one am willing to give the developers credit for adding a truly innovative feature to their (our) MMO that can only improve over time.</p><p>My 2cp.</p>

Deveryn
01-18-2012, 04:42 AM
<p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yet I'm on CB and looking at the "Hall of Fame".  The top dungeon has a whopping 34 likes.   2nd most is 33.  And then there are a handful with 10-11.  This isn't success imo.  I don't buy the idea of it being a money sink either.  If folks quit showing up, then folks quit wasting their money designing these things.</p><p>So let's talk money--cool looking mounts & wings?  Yeah, that's profitable to SOE.  I can see the $$$ in-game they're making.  DYOD?  ...it's quite honestly garbage.  And I have no idea what they think a 25% increase in tokens is going to accomplish.  If you're slightly off the mark, you give it a bump (like 25%).  But they are completely off their stinking rocker.</p></blockquote><p>The like count is due to the ridiculously flawed system. Under the star system, people might be more encouraged to actually give a rating because you could vote in favor of the person taking down their dungeon. I've been through some of those hall of fame dungeons that claim to be solo friendly for 300 tokens and wish I could vote them down for being too much of a pain with the awful spacing of the 3 packs of mobs.</p><p>The funny thing is those people at the top haven't spent a dime of real money on those dungeons. All of the mobs are dropped in game. Anyone can crap a dungeon out and those dungeons will remain more popular than anything built with enhancements and effects because it's easy marks and xp.</p>

Banditman
01-18-2012, 01:17 PM
<p>SOE continues to impress me with their inability to grasp one very important concept:  You only get one chance to make a good first impression.</p><p>Dungeon Finder?  Great idea!  It works very well in many games.  Unfortunately, SOE pushed theirs out before it had all the features it needed.  It flopped (predictably) and it's now on the trash heap.  The chances of it making a comeback are slim to none.  People now "know" what DF is, how bad it is, and changing that perception is a HUGE uphill fight.</p><p>Dungeon Decorator is no different.  Many people, myself included, told them that the releasing this feature without a fully realized set of tools was a recipe for failure.  Yes, plunking things down is great fun.  However, this isn't creating a good experience where it counts - in the dungeon.  Lots of people enjoy creating the dungeons, but no one actually likes playing them.  Given the current set of tools, that isn't likely to change.  Going forward, people now know what Dungeon Decorator is all about.  It isn't all that fun, and the simple act of allowing player characters in those dungeons won't make them fun.  The dungeons themselves simply don't have the features, nor does the toolset provided offer what is necessary.</p><p>Tradeskill Apprentices?  *sigh*.  Completely "fire and forget".  So much potential lost here.</p><p>The list goes on, and I'm sure it will grow soon with the next "new" feature.</p>

Troy
01-18-2012, 04:11 PM
<p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yet I'm on CB and looking at the "Hall of Fame".  The top dungeon has a whopping 34 likes.   2nd most is 33.  And then there are a handful with 10-11.  This isn't success imo.  I don't buy the idea of it being a money sink either.  If folks quit showing up, then folks quit wasting their money designing these things.</p><p>So let's talk money--cool looking mounts & wings?  Yeah, that's profitable to SOE.  I can see the $$$ in-game they're making.  DYOD?  ...it's quite honestly garbage.  And I have no idea what they think a 25% increase in tokens is going to accomplish.  If you're slightly off the mark, you give it a bump (like 25%).  But they are completely off their stinking rocker.</p></blockquote><p>The Visits number can be misleading. I often unpublish a dungeon just to rescript or add something to it - when I republish - visits set to 0. But my awards still stay in the discription window. Maybe there should be a second number of how many "past Visits" and how many "republished" the dungeon had.</p>

Deveryn
01-18-2012, 05:35 PM
<p><cite>Troy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yet I'm on CB and looking at the "Hall of Fame".  The top dungeon has a whopping 34 likes.   2nd most is 33.  And then there are a handful with 10-11.  This isn't success imo.  I don't buy the idea of it being a money sink either.  If folks quit showing up, then folks quit wasting their money designing these things.</p><p>So let's talk money--cool looking mounts & wings?  Yeah, that's profitable to SOE.  I can see the $$$ in-game they're making.  DYOD?  ...it's quite honestly garbage.  And I have no idea what they think a 25% increase in tokens is going to accomplish.  If you're slightly off the mark, you give it a bump (like 25%).  But they are completely off their stinking rocker.</p></blockquote><p>The Visits number can be misleading. I often unpublish a dungeon just to rescript or add something to it - when I republish - visits set to 0. But my awards still stay in the discription window. Maybe there should be a second number of how many "past Visits" and how many "republished" the dungeon had.</p></blockquote><p>Something is funky with the new voting system. I don't believe it has to do with republishing. I have a house on the leaderboards and it recently had its vote count reset without any action on my part.</p>