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View Full Version : I'd like more storytelling tools


ET3D2
12-31-2011, 07:25 PM
<p>I finally tried dungeon maker, and was disappointed by the very limited ability to tell a story. I thought of writing a post saying just how much I'm disappointed, but decided it would be more productive to say what I'd like to see.</p><p>I think that the minimum tools which would make DM feel like a good story telling tool to me would be:</p><p>1. The ability to make a spawner into an NCP, which when clicked will show text and an "okay" button with some other text for the adventurer's response. Better yet, have options for "yes" and "no" responses (for the other thing I want, see below). Ultimately, a dialogue tree would be great, but that's not really something I would expect.</p><p>2. Triggers, which make objects appear or disappear when one of several things happens: an NPC's text is okayed, a mob dies, or (optional) the adventurer steps in a specific area. The trigger is defined for a specific NPC or mob, and each object will have "appear" and "disappear" properties, initially defined as "dungeon start" and "dungeon end" respectively, but can be set to one of the defined triggers. The number of triggers defined and the number of objects per trigger can be limited so as not to overburden the system.</p><p>These two things will make it possible to create complex stories. It's always possible to do even more, such as define objects to interact with and cause triggers to fire, count based triggers, etc., but I think for a start that won't be necessary. Frankly even just having NPC's would be good for story, but triggers would really allow dungeon creators to surprise players.</p><p>BTW, if anyone wants to see a decent story oriented creator, take a look at mission architect in City of Heroes. A free CoH player can create missions but not publish them or play missions created by others, but that should be enough for a taste. It's not a perfect system, but it does have a lot of ways to do interesting things inside missions.</p>

Jessyme
12-31-2011, 08:57 PM
<p>I would love to see these as well! </p><p>Right now we are pretty much limited to writable books and cards and the hope that flavor text may trigger.</p><p>Heck, I would love it if the Magic Mouths worked in the Dungeon. </p><p>Quijana</p>

Juravael
01-01-2012, 12:17 AM
<p>All of the above would be great. I have created a couple of dungeons with themes and a storyline but there is no way of passing that info along to the player. I even tried using the talking signs to add flavor to rooms, but they do not trigger when running the dungeons, only when working on them.</p><p>It's a shame we are so limited and a shame how the rating system currently is. Both of these factors have pushed me away from making any more dungeons. Why bother? I can publish a 200 token solo-fest with the entrance and exit in the same room and get better ratings than the ones I spent weeks on... yes, tested that and as sad as it sounds, it is true.</p>

retro_guy
01-01-2012, 04:57 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All of the above would be great. I have created a couple of dungeons with themes and a storyline but there is no way of passing that info along to the player. I even tried using the talking signs to add flavor to rooms, but they do not trigger when running the dungeons, only when working on them.</p><p>It's a shame we are so limited and a shame how the rating system currently is. Both of these factors have pushed me away from making any more dungeons. Why bother? I can publish a 200 token solo-fest with the entrance and exit in the same room and get better ratings than the ones I spent weeks on... yes, tested that and as sad as it sounds, it is true.</p></blockquote><p>That is how I see things going, but sadly that is EQ2, an I'm as guilty as anyone for taking the easiest path for the maximum return. Although I do like to explore and enjoy the game, often without returns, most people seem to want to find the most efficient route for the greatest return for the time invested.</p><p>I'd love to make dungeons and am outfitting my Carp with all the tools and mobs I can find, but I am under no illusions that most people will only run my dungeon if it gives a good return for the time they spend in it, only a few will run it simply for the enjoyment of exploreing a new dungeon.</p><p>Those people who made themed houses e.g. mazes and Frostfell/Halloween houses might find the dungeon maker very useful, also might those who ran competitions associated with them.</p>

ET3D2
01-01-2012, 05:27 AM
<p><cite>retro_guy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I'd love to make dungeons and am outfitting my Carp with all the tools and mobs I can find, but I am under no illusions that most people will only run my dungeon if it gives a good return for the time they spend in it, only a few will run it simply for the enjoyment of exploreing a new dungeon.</blockquote><p>There are a lot of people who do care about content. I ran a few dungeons, and every time I finished one I felt it was a waste of time because all I did was fight, get XP and tokens. I would have preferred no XP actually.</p><p>I hope no one minds if I mention City of Heroes again. It's the MMO I played the most (in large part because it's more story oriented than most). There are certainly a lot of farming mission arcs created there in Mission Architect, but there are also a lot of story based ones, and some of these are selected by the devs and highlighted (and I think the players even get something in game for that). There are quite a few players interested in this kind of missions, just like there are a lot of players interested in just fighting mobs. I for one would enjoy dungeons without any fighting, like some of the holiday quests.</p>

Bernita
01-01-2012, 06:54 PM
<p>I'm working on my first dungeon -- it has a theme that I lay out in a large book at the entry area.  (Having been in a dungeon where a dozen mobs all aggro as soon as the dungeon "opens" -- creating a death loop -- I am leaving a bit of aggro-free space where adventurers can zone in and get organized before heading into the fray.)</p><p>I won't be publishing the dungeon until after the next grotto event because I need more grass and mud and snow and sand squares -- it will be a beautiful thing, and I'll console myself with the compliments of my friends if it doesn't prove popular with anyone else.</p><p>Right now, I fight in dungeons for two reasons -- to see what others have done with what's available, and to get tokens to spend on my own dungeon.  So, yeah, I'll do a couple of "farming" dungeons because I want to try for some very specific spawners (the duck!), and I'll click the Like button for Action if I think a dungeon has been well-designed for play content.  But to get me to click the Style button, the designer needs to have put some thought into improving the basic layout.</p><p>And I *definitely* want to see more storytelling tools -- the ability to have if/then situations.  I'd like to have a dungeon where the adventurer(s) must see or do some specific thing in order to gain access to the boss, for example.  What about lootable containers?  (Not a lot of them, just enough that adventurers have to open them for a "key" item -- and thus must search the entire layout to find it, maybe even following "lore"/clues laid out in the beginning.</p><p>It's ten months until Fan Faire, when we have a chance to back the designers/devs into corners and make them concede the value of our ideas.  I hope we see new Dungeon Maker tools before then....</p>

Jessyme
01-01-2012, 07:44 PM
<p>At the 2011 Fan Faire the Dev's said that the Dungeon Maker was being tried out to see if there was interest and that much more would be added if it proved popular. </p><p>Hopefully they are seeing that we are interested and will make good on adding more options for us.</p><p>It truly is a great idea.</p><p>As for storytelling, I think we need to combine mark grinding with storyline.  It certainly can and has been done. I have been in several story dungeons that were reasonably quick and that gave a good amount of tokens as well. WITHOUT being 100 mobs in one room ready to mass rush you kind of thing. </p><p>I think the biggest thing that kills the story process is the need to put the entrance and exit very close together in case people need to leave early. It is awfully frustrating to get no credit at all because you started a long dungeon and two hours in are no where close to an exit. </p><p>I also wish we could use more then books/cards and signs to tell the stories. </p><p>In case a Dev does read this thread: Just the Magic Mouth alone would allow us to put in mood elements and warnings and flavor text and such.  Please please make them work in dungeons <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Quijana</p>

ET3D2
01-02-2012, 04:40 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And I *definitely* want to see more storytelling tools -- the ability to have if/then situations.  I'd like to have a dungeon where the adventurer(s) must see or do some specific thing in order to gain access to the boss, for example.  What about lootable containers?  (Not a lot of them, just enough that adventurers have to open them for a "key" item -- and thus must search the entire layout to find it, maybe even following "lore"/clues laid out in the beginning.</p></blockquote><p>Here's a little more about what I think could be done (more than the minimum I mentioned before):</p><p>For spawners:</p><p>Select type:</p><ul><li>Enemy - like today</li><li>Peaceful - will not attack unless attacked. Can have text shown when approached and as usual when fighting.</li><li>Non-combatant - just for show. For example, rats scurrying. Can have text shown when first approached. </li><li>NPC - stands in place, has a special marker over the head, and can be clicked to interact with.</li></ul><p>Define triggers:</p><ul><li>For NPCs, trigger when the player responds to the text. Can define several responses with different triggers.</li><li>When engaging in combat.</li><li>At 50% health.</li><li>At death.</li></ul><p>Define when they appear or disappear based on triggers.</p><p>For other objects:</p><p>Can define as interactive. It can then have a name and will glow when moused over. Interacting will result in a trigger being fire.</p><p>Objects can also be made to appear or disappear based on triggers.</p><p>I think that this is a pretty good setup, which isn't too complicated but is powerful. Examples:</p><p>Talk to an NPC. Once the quest is given, the NPC disappears (via a trigger) and another copy appears further down the dungeon, for later interaction.</p><p>When an enemy is at 50% health, he summons reinforcements.</p><p>A bunch of objects can be used to block a passageway, and when another object is clicked they will disappear.</p><p>The exit can be made to appear when a certain event happens, such as when the boss is defeated. I think allowing multiple exits would be nice, especially when combined with this. (I also think that the entrance should also be made an exit by default.)</p><p>An NPC asks to find an object, which is implemented with a clickable object which triggers the appearance of a second copy of the NPC, which can then be returned to and say thanks, at which point the exit will appear. (And perhaps also trigger reinforcements along the way.)</p>