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View Full Version : Madness , unbalance and trivialisation .....


Odys
12-26-2011, 01:35 AM
<p>I wonder where the game is leading us.</p><p>Currently the game suffer from huge issuesand i wonder if the team plan to adress them :</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Trivialisation :</span></strong></p><p>My new 24 Blord has 100dps mode, so his auto attack does 98% what it "should". I m wondering if mage get simiar items (probably). i dobt so. This basically increase the dps of all melee by 50%, i don't think that mov hp have been increased by that. He chain kill orange 1^, he solo ^^^ and at 19 he managed to kill the 25 1^ guard to make the druid quest in darkligth.</p><p>Trivial may be funny, but this kind of fun never last. The last huge improvement to gear is probably the fourth since i started to play (around Kunark expansion) and i m afraid that new players will totally miss the feel of danger that we had in those days. When a game is trivial there is no accomplishment.</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Unbalance :</span></strong></p><p><strong>Between archetypes : </strong></p><p>Since he got his first weakness attack my beastlord probably kill stuff 5-10 times faster than a healer. I wonder why some toon would be able to progress 5 time faster than another. Before balance was achieved by giving more hp to mob, scouts were fasts but had down time and could easily be killed or forced to retreat. It's not the case anymore. My 24 BL bring down a 24 ^^^ withing 10 seconds.</p><p><strong>Inside an archetype</strong> : last time i made a  level 90 census at pick hour i got approximatively the following result :</p><p>For 100 priests about 50 where inquisitors, 15  were defilers,  10 were furies, 10 were warden, 10 were templar and less than 5 were mystics.  Note that my server was a live server so 99% of the level 90 are ex pay to play players (hence there is no bias due to free classes). </p><p>Half of the priests being inquisitor a clear sign of a problem. If i was a raid leader i would obviously hire 4 inquisitors (no room to explain why ... ).</p><p>That very day 15 inquisitors were up and only 1 mystic.</p><p>The priest case is not unique, there are also far less monks than crusaders.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Non power gamer marginalised</strong>:</span></p><p>It seems to me that non raiders are quickly left with nothing worth doing. In other expansion it took long for casual people to get their sets (TSO, SF) and instance progression was very smooth from as example the hole (where many could solo) to palace or guk 4 hard (i never did that one).  During SF a single instance (palace) was designed for a well equiped and organized group. In DOV  1/4 of the instances are like that (drunder). Forgive me but there are many groups that i will never bring to drunder, even if i may keep them alive. Drunder takes forever if you dps are not at lleast beyond 80K.</p><p>The consequence is that casual players (that got rygor quicly due to cheap prices) are left with nothing to do.</p><p>Casual adventuring is not the only non high end aspect of the game that have been marginalized (or destoyed). I remember when crafters were very actives. I remember messages, advertising, people selling their skills and product. I also remember an auction house full of goods.</p><p>Nowdays all this is gone, and you are not likely to find mastercraft armor on sale at the broker. It seem to me that crafters probably gave up trying. I ackwoledge that the recent introduction of new rare recipes that apprentices do research may make the things better. But i wonder of this will be enough, the new quest gear is equal or superior to MC items and this is the core issue. </p><p><strong>AA crawl:</strong></p><p>This is mainly a problem for new toons or alts, with 320 aas to catch back. I believe that quests, npc and conversion should give more AAs. A toon leveling with 50/50 conversion should end up 90 with at least 270 AAS. It is very far from being the case.</p><p><strong>Weak Interface/performance :</strong></p><p>Stoneage issue still exist after 6 or 7 years :</p><p>- Targetting is still a mess.</p><p>- Implied target, group encounter arrow, main target are not easy to distingish whatever are my settings.</p><p>- Extreme perfomance mode still omit important graphical details : AOE, quest items, target when it is further than 8 meter and so on.</p><p>- Mob trajectories are still very often totally crazy, as example on slopes.</p><p>- Extreme performance is still a necessity for me in raids, and despite this i sometimes get lag of 0,5-1second on cures (it seem sever related since it only happen some nights).</p>

Avirodar
12-26-2011, 01:47 AM
<p>I just done a check on Oasis for level 90 healers.Inquisitor : 8Templar : 10Warden : 17Fury : 3Defiler : 5Mystic : 3Templars and Inqs are close...Mystics and Defilers are close...But look at Wardens (17) versus Fury (3). Looks like a very clear sign that Wardens need to be slammed with the nerf bat.</p>

Calthine
12-26-2011, 01:48 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But look at Wardens (17) versus Fury (3). Looks like a very clear sign that Wardens need to be slammed with the nerf bat.</p></blockquote><p>Some how I doubt doing a population check at this time of night on Christmas will give you a representative sample <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Jalen
12-26-2011, 01:49 AM
<p>Translation: give healers scout DPS, limit class choices to players, boost AA xp, and fix the bugs</p>

Avirodar
12-26-2011, 01:51 AM
<p><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But look at Wardens (17) versus Fury (3). Looks like a very clear sign that Wardens need to be slammed with the nerf bat.</p></blockquote><p>Some how I doubt doing a population check at this time of night on Christmas will give you a representative sample <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Why not? Are you trying to say that only Wardens play on Christmas, or something?A check at ANY time, on any day, is fully relevant. Given that these results line up with how the healer populations have fared for years, minus the sole exception of furies being too low, the results look incredibly accurate.</p>

Laenai
12-26-2011, 01:53 AM
<p><cite>Jalen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Translation: give healers scout DPS, limit class choices to players, boost AA xp, and fix the bugs</p></blockquote><p>My name is Laenai, I'm a mystic, and I have scout DPS.</p><p><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Rainmare
12-26-2011, 01:53 AM
<p>well on the crafter side...crafted armor simply isn't valuable anymore. unless your making Rygorr armor, you have nothing to offer if you don't make spell upgrades, and even those are slightly marginalized by the research assistant and the buyable time reduction potions.</p><p>really until you hit about 70-80....you burn through MC armor tiers about as fast as it takes me to make you a set if you include time harvesting rares. and the quested gear is more then adequate to handle anything your going to be doing.</p><p>then once you get to 70-80 you might want a set of MC armor/weapons.</p><p>and when you hit the 85-90...the armor you get from questing/PQs outdoes anything I can make.</p><p>and I imagine it goes much the same for the other crafters. really the only sellables anymore are arrows, throwing weapons, food and drink. since even poisons apparently are so weak anymore as to not bother.</p><p>cure potions are usually sold to raiders, and power potions as well.</p><p>but weaponsmiths, armorsmiths, tailors....yeah most if not all of what they make is useless to most toons. now these new recipes with the apprentice are real nice, but the reactants are insanely rare.</p>

Felshades
12-26-2011, 02:01 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But look at Wardens (17) versus Fury (3). Looks like a very clear sign that Wardens need to be slammed with the nerf bat.</p></blockquote><p>Some how I doubt doing a population check at this time of night on Christmas will give you a representative sample <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Why not? Are you trying to say that only Wardens play on Christmas, or something?A check at ANY time, on any day, is fully relevant. Given that these results line up with how the healer populations have fared for years, minus the sole exception of furies being too low, the results look incredibly accurate.</p></blockquote><p>Because on a national holiday most of the people that normally would play, regardless of class, won't be logged in?</p>

Avirodar
12-26-2011, 02:28 AM
<p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Because on a national holiday most of the people that normally would play, regardless of class, won't be logged in?</p></blockquote><p>And that has what to do with anything, regarding statistics?If something happens that causes half of EQ2's population to not log in, averages of statistics would indicate that half the templars that would have been on, wont be. Half of the furies that would have been on, wont be. Half of the mystics that would have been on, wont be. Half of the Defilers that would have been on, wont be. Are you smart enough to work out where this is going, yet?Think about it... Statistics on a national level after often declared, when the sample rate is only a few thousand people, out of 300 million. There is a reson this can be done within accuracy of miniscule margin. Samples are great indications, and you most definitely do not always need to poll an entire population (be it EQ2, or the entire USA) to learn where things are at.There is a reason the warden population was double anything else, and quadruple its fury counterpart. And it has nothing to do with christmas.</p>

HBP
12-26-2011, 02:57 AM
<p>90 healer check on Unrest:</p><p>2 Defilers</p><p>13 Mystics</p><p>5 Furies</p><p>4 Wardens</p><p>10 Inquisitors</p><p>6 Templars</p><p>The nerf bat now goes to Mystics!</p>

Laenai
12-26-2011, 03:22 AM
<p><cite>HBP wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The nerf bat now goes to Mystics!</p></blockquote><p>No! =P You can keep that nerf bat to yourself!</p>

gourdon
12-26-2011, 04:55 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Because on a national holiday most of the people that normally would play, regardless of class, won't be logged in?</p></blockquote><p>And that has what to do with anything, regarding statistics?If something happens that causes half of EQ2's population to not log in, averages of statistics would indicate that half the templars that would have been on, wont be. Half of the furies that would have been on, wont be. Half of the mystics that would have been on, wont be. Half of the Defilers that would have been on, wont be. Are you smart enough to work out where this is going, yet?Think about it... Statistics on a national level after often declared, when the sample rate is only a few thousand people, out of 300 million. There is a reson this can be done within accuracy of miniscule margin. Samples are great indications, and you most definitely do not always need to poll an entire population (be it EQ2, or the entire USA) to learn where things are at.There is a reason the warden population was double anything else, and quadruple its fury counterpart. And it has nothing to do with christmas.</p></blockquote><p>It isn't that there is necessarily an explicit bias error.  The problem with a small sample is that small errors have a large impact on the results.  Take for example a very extreme case where a sample of 1 is taken.  Lets say that in reality there are 98% crusaders, 1% druids and 1% mystics and I take a sample of 1 and get a mystic.  Then I'm led to believe that there are 100% mystics and no other healers.  This is an extreme case, but illustrates how having a very small sample can lead to a very large measurement error.</p><p>Regarding what explicit errors you might be bringing, you did your sample on a light play day.  Suppose that people were more inclined to do solo play.  This would lead to a preponderance of solo friendly characters logged on.</p><p>Felshades is right even though they aren't able to express why very well.  Your statistical sampling is poor and would not pass muster with anyone that knew what they were doing since it isn't hard to wait to do several samples on more representative occasions.</p><p>P.S.  I do agree that Wardens need a nerf bat, though brawlers need it more.</p>

Odys
12-26-2011, 06:21 AM
<p>Well people should do census on larger servers than mine, on storm it seems that mystics are quite rares. Inquisitor are populars and i tried at various hours getting always then far far ahead. Warden are not too bad and more numerous than furies , templars and mystic are always almost missing.  The server with mystic ahead is very surprising, i don't see mystic competing as buffer with inquisitors and i they far behind in the curing department.</p><p>I would personnaly generally  see Inquisitors followed by warden and furies  and templar and mystic far last.</p><p>On storm there may be a huge bias because the remaining players are mostly raiders and since we late in the expansion any raid use 4 inquisitors (indeed due to DOV mecanics this was probably almost the case at launch). But indeed i tried at non raid hours and again got almost half the priest as inquisitors.</p><p>I m not asking scout dps for healers, but if dps mod come as candy i wonder what do priests/mages get. I saw some 0,7% potency ... that's far from 20% dps mod. Increasing scout dps has a huge effect since scout dps was measured against mob dps and hp pool. If you change that scouts simply one shot anything. Scout kill per hour was not so muh bigger than priest one in the old days, simply because scoutshad to regain health and sometimes to wait for cooldown; they also had to be more carefull and sneaky than priest. I remember questing near scouts and we were going about the same speed. My warden was steady and safe, the scouts were  killing then resting a bit. Today resting is useless, waiting for cooldown too.</p><p>I m mainly speaking about scouts, since it seems to me that the mecanics (haste, double attack) has a big bias in favor of melee dps at least till 90.</p><p>Trivialisation is not for scouts only, my 22 inquisitor with 65 Aas took with relative ease the 27^^^ giants in thundering plain. He was even careless and got also a double 25 ^^^ pull and he won (using his 10mn recast st emergency reactive). He has no adornments and miss the new quested items since he was created really long ago. His auto attack hits for 500-600, well i remember my furie getting a 500 nuke at 24 and me thinking it was nuts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />. I was not bold enough to pull the named griffon that is now always up (the one for the boots).</p><p>Anyway i foresee hordes of melee t1 classes obliterating entire zones with the help off stomper.</p>

Seiffil
12-26-2011, 08:27 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Trivialisation is not for scouts only, my 22 inquisitor with 65 Aas took with relative ease the 27^^^ giants in thundering plain. He was even careless and got also a double 25 ^^^ pull and he won (using his 10mn recast st emergency reactive). He has no adornments and miss the new quested items since he was created really long ago. His auto attack hits for 500-600, well i remember my furie getting a 500 nuke at 24 and me thinking it was nuts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />. I was not bold enough to pull the named griffon that is now always up (the one for the boots). </blockquote><p>This is more an issue of mobs not having their difficulty changed with the changes in gear as well as AAs.  Most lower content wasn't designed with the thought of how will their AAs affect the difficulty since just about all of your lower level zones were designed before AA and balanced around gear that has significantly different stats then what they had before.</p><p>As for doing a check for /who all 90 priest.  More often then not, I find that most healers I run into, for that matter most characters are anon or role, which will hide their class from anyone trying to do a quick check.  You have to be careful about how you use that information, since the information is too incomplete to really make any significant conclusions based off of it. </p>

Laenai
12-26-2011, 12:35 PM
<p><cite>gourdon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Because on a national holiday most of the people that normally would play, regardless of class, won't be logged in?</p></blockquote><p>And that has what to do with anything, regarding statistics?If something happens that causes half of EQ2's population to not log in, averages of statistics would indicate that half the templars that would have been on, wont be. Half of the furies that would have been on, wont be. Half of the mystics that would have been on, wont be. Half of the Defilers that would have been on, wont be. Are you smart enough to work out where this is going, yet?Think about it... Statistics on a national level after often declared, when the sample rate is only a few thousand people, out of 300 million. There is a reson this can be done within accuracy of miniscule margin. Samples are great indications, and you most definitely do not always need to poll an entire population (be it EQ2, or the entire USA) to learn where things are at.There is a reason the warden population was double anything else, and quadruple its fury counterpart. And it has nothing to do with christmas.</p></blockquote><p>It isn't that there is necessarily an explicit bias error.  The problem with a small sample is that small errors have a large impact on the results.  Take for example a very extreme case where a sample of 1 is taken.  Lets say that in reality there are 98% crusaders, 1% druids and 1% mystics and I take a sample of 1 and get a mystic.  Then I'm led to believe that there are 100% mystics and no other healers.  This is an extreme case, but illustrates how having a very small sample can lead to a very large measurement error.</p><p>Regarding what explicit errors you might be bringing, you did your sample on a light play day.  Suppose that people were more inclined to do solo play.  This would lead to a preponderance of solo friendly characters logged on.</p><p>Felshades is right even though they aren't able to express why very well.  Your statistical sampling is poor and would not pass muster with anyone that knew what they were doing since it isn't hard to wait to do several samples on more representative occasions.</p><p>P.S.  I do agree that Wardens need a nerf bat, though brawlers need it more.</p></blockquote><p>On the same server as Avirodar and online at the same time he took his sample, I got more PUGs yesterday than I've gotten in the last 3 months. My experience can't necessarily say that it was a light day on the Oasis server.</p><p>A sample of level 90 healers the day after Christmas where most folks have the day off and nothing to do but nurse a hangover:</p><p>5 inquisitors</p><p>4 templar</p><p>3 mystics</p><p>0 defilers</p><p>4 wardens</p><p>2 furies</p>

Mohee
12-26-2011, 02:20 PM
<p>If you're checking your server for the amount of healers on, doesn't mean anything. Because you're missing all the people who are /roleplaying or /anon. A lot of healers /role and /anon to avoid tells from random people for help for quests, groups, or spammers.</p><p>And to the OP, yes this game has become way to easy over the years, but I guess thats just the way MMO's are going these days. They are all following the WoW model, where anyone 3 or older can play with ease with little to no effort involved at all.</p><p>Welcome! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p><p>P.S. Even EQ1 has been changed so much that a 3 year old can play it. There's no challenge anymore. Risk vs. Reward is gone. And its never coming back...</p>

Wurm
12-26-2011, 02:24 PM
<p>People who ask for other classes to get nerfed have issues.</p><p>Thats the only thing I learned from this thread.</p>

bohohoboprobono
12-26-2011, 05:29 PM
<p><cite>Mohee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>P.S. Even EQ1 has been changed so much that a 3 year old can play it. There's no challenge anymore. Risk vs. Reward is gone. And its never coming back...</p></blockquote><p>Games aren't jobs anymore.  What a shame.</p>

Laenai
12-26-2011, 05:58 PM
<p><cite>bohohoboprobono wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mohee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>P.S. Even EQ1 has been changed so much that a 3 year old can play it. There's no challenge anymore. Risk vs. Reward is gone. And its never coming back...</p></blockquote><p>Games aren't jobs anymore.  What a shame.</p></blockquote><p>Games have never been jobs. Just sometimes it takes a higher level of paying attention to be able to push buttons in a non-stupid way.</p>

Odys
12-26-2011, 06:14 PM
<p>Honestly i fail to see any solo content that cannot be owned by pushing a single button, namely auto attack. In the thundering steppes the only challenge you can find is dealing with the few ^^^ griffons.</p><p>I rememebr when defeating a 1^ named was not granted , today you can probably do it using auto attack (i..f you a melee class).</p><p>Last i m not asking for any nerf, but soe should parse the raiding effectives and draw conclusions. If as example many raid do use 4 inquisitor (it is what i would personnaly do) the issue has to be adressed but buffing or nerfing. Now i m saying it is the case worldwide, it is quite the case on storm, it is also what i would do but clearly you can do without but in MMO palyers usually drift quicly toward optimality.</p><p>Last i agree that the new rare reacitve recipes may bring tradeskill back. I mentionned it and hope ti will be enough.</p>

Avirodar
12-26-2011, 06:49 PM
<p><cite>bohohoboprobono wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mohee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>P.S. Even EQ1 has been changed so much that a 3 year old can play it. There's no challenge anymore. Risk vs. Reward is gone. And its never coming back...</p></blockquote><p>Games aren't jobs anymore.  What a shame.</p></blockquote><p>Is it more fun just to click the cow once, every 6 hours?If you don't understand the reference, go look up what cow-clicker is, who made it, and why.</p>

gourdon
12-26-2011, 07:52 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well people should do census on larger servers than mine, on storm it seems that mystics are quite rares. Inquisitor are populars and i tried at various hours getting always then far far ahead. Warden are not too bad and more numerous than furies , templars and mystic are always almost missing.  The server with mystic ahead is very surprising, i don't see mystic competing as buffer with inquisitors and i they far behind in the curing department.</p><p>I would personnaly generally  see Inquisitors followed by warden and furies  and templar and mystic far last.</p><p>On storm there may be a huge bias because the remaining players are mostly raiders and since we late in the expansion any raid use 4 inquisitors (indeed due to DOV mecanics this was probably almost the case at launch). But indeed i tried at non raid hours and again got almost half the priest as inquisitors.</p><p>I m not asking scout dps for healers, but if dps mod come as candy i wonder what do priests/mages get. I saw some 0,7% potency ... that's far from 20% dps mod. Increasing scout dps has a huge effect since scout dps was measured against mob dps and hp pool. If you change that scouts simply one shot anything. Scout kill per hour was not so muh bigger than priest one in the old days, simply because scoutshad to regain health and sometimes to wait for cooldown; they also had to be more carefull and sneaky than priest. I remember questing near scouts and we were going about the same speed. My warden was steady and safe, the scouts were  killing then resting a bit. Today resting is useless, waiting for cooldown too.</p><p>I m mainly speaking about scouts, since it seems to me that the mecanics (haste, double attack) has a big bias in favor of melee dps at least till 90.</p><p>Trivialisation is not for scouts only, my 22 inquisitor with 65 Aas took with relative ease the 27^^^ giants in thundering plain. He was even careless and got also a double 25 ^^^ pull and he won (using his 10mn recast st emergency reactive). He has no adornments and miss the new quested items since he was created really long ago. His auto attack hits for 500-600, well i remember my furie getting a 500 nuke at 24 and me thinking it was nuts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />. I was not bold enough to pull the named griffon that is now always up (the one for the boots).</p><p>Anyway i foresee hordes of melee t1 classes obliterating entire zones with the help off stomper.</p></blockquote><p>I guarantee you that it isn't scouts trivializing meaningful content.  Scouts outside of the BL are the worst at soloing 80-90 Heroic/Epic content, though Wiz/Warlock might be in the worst group too.  It is an atrocity the difference between my Assassin and SK.  I won't even start on how much more skill is required to play the scout.</p>

gourdon
12-26-2011, 07:59 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly i fail to see any solo content that cannot be owned by pushing a single button, namely auto attack. In the thundering steppes the only challenge you can find is dealing with the few ^^^ griffons.</p><p>I rememebr when defeating a 1^ named was not granted , today you can probably do it using auto attack (i..f you a melee class).</p><p>Last i m not asking for any nerf, but soe should parse the raiding effectives and draw conclusions. If as example many raid do use 4 inquisitor (it is what i would personnaly do) the issue has to be adressed but buffing or nerfing. Now i m saying it is the case worldwide, it is quite the case on storm, it is also what i would do but clearly you can do without but in MMO palyers usually drift quicly toward optimality.</p><p>Last i agree that the new rare reacitve recipes may bring tradeskill back. I mentionned it and hope ti will be enough.</p></blockquote><p>Solo content is for the minimum skill player and shouldn't be too challenging.  The biggest problem with the game is that the space between solo and group content isn't well populated.</p>

Crismorn
12-26-2011, 08:12 PM
<p>The vast majority of talent left this game once it was nerfed to oblivion and back.  People who play for a challenge will leave when there is nothing to challenge them anymore so now we have a very large % of people who are not looking for a challenge who see Inquisitors as a class that can be played to near full healing potential by using 5-7 buttons, same for Wardens.</p><p>This is why we have tons of Inquis and Wardens, the content is easy so no more need for each healer class to maintain their debuffs so people who want to just skate by or put little effort in primarily play the classes that let them do that which happens to be Inquis and Warden right now.</p><p>Templars have rediculous heal potential right now and they still have the best defensive utility out of all 6 classes, but why play a class that requires 20ish buttons to reach potential on when the content is easy enough that you can skate by while using an Inquis for that easy content?  There is no more incentive to play other classes that require more effort to succeed with.</p>

bks6721
12-27-2011, 04:09 AM
<p><cite>gourdon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well people should do census on larger servers than mine, on storm it seems that mystics are quite rares. Inquisitor are populars and i tried at various hours getting always then far far ahead. Warden are not too bad and more numerous than furies , templars and mystic are always almost missing.  The server with mystic ahead is very surprising, i don't see mystic competing as buffer with inquisitors and i they far behind in the curing department.</p><p>I would personnaly generally  see Inquisitors followed by warden and furies  and templar and mystic far last.</p><p>On storm there may be a huge bias because the remaining players are mostly raiders and since we late in the expansion any raid use 4 inquisitors (indeed due to DOV mecanics this was probably almost the case at launch). But indeed i tried at non raid hours and again got almost half the priest as inquisitors.</p><p>I m not asking scout dps for healers, but if dps mod come as candy i wonder what do priests/mages get. I saw some 0,7% potency ... that's far from 20% dps mod. Increasing scout dps has a huge effect since scout dps was measured against mob dps and hp pool. If you change that scouts simply one shot anything. Scout kill per hour was not so muh bigger than priest one in the old days, simply because scoutshad to regain health and sometimes to wait for cooldown; they also had to be more carefull and sneaky than priest. I remember questing near scouts and we were going about the same speed. My warden was steady and safe, the scouts were  killing then resting a bit. Today resting is useless, waiting for cooldown too.</p><p>I m mainly speaking about scouts, since it seems to me that the mecanics (haste, double attack) has a big bias in favor of melee dps at least till 90.</p><p>Trivialisation is not for scouts only, my 22 inquisitor with 65 Aas took with relative ease the 27^^^ giants in thundering plain. He was even careless and got also a double 25 ^^^ pull and he won (using his 10mn recast st emergency reactive). He has no adornments and miss the new quested items since he was created really long ago. His auto attack hits for 500-600, well i remember my furie getting a 500 nuke at 24 and me thinking it was nuts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />. I was not bold enough to pull the named griffon that is now always up (the one for the boots).</p><p>Anyway i foresee hordes of melee t1 classes obliterating entire zones with the help off stomper.</p></blockquote><p>I guarantee you that it isn't scouts trivializing meaningful content.  Scouts outside of the BL are the worst at soloing 80-90 Heroic/Epic content, though Wiz/Warlock might be in the worst group too.  It is an atrocity the difference between my Assassin and SK.  I won't even start on how much more skill is required to play the scout.</p></blockquote><p>really?   My personal experience is not the same as yours.  I have 10 lvl 90's.  My wizard, warlock and ranger have no issues soloing 80-90 heriocs.  The sk is ok but i'd rather do it with my zerker or monk.</p>

Luscai
12-27-2011, 05:16 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just done a check on Oasis for level 90 healers.But look at Wardens (17) versus Fury (3). Looks like a very clear sign that Wardens need to be slammed with the nerf bat.</p></blockquote><p>No, they dont need a nerf bat. If anything, Fury needs to be improved. Asking for a nerfbat means that you might end up with two unpopular classes.</p><p>From the moment new players keep getting told that Fury sucks and Wardens are great, that more and more new players will roll a Warden just based on word of mouth instead of own experience. And few will roll a Fury anymore. This can also exaggerate the impression that the unbalance should give. My point is that Warden could be just fine and that Fury just needs an improvement.</p><p>Never ask for a nerf bat imo.</p>

Griffildur
12-27-2011, 08:47 AM
<p><cite>gourdon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><p>Solo content is for the minimum skill player and shouldn't be too challenging.  The biggest problem with the game is that the space between solo and group content isn't well populated.</p></blockquote><p>And in your expert view exactly what could populate "the gap" between solo and group play ?</p>

Vitriol
12-27-2011, 10:52 AM
<p><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>People who ask for other classes to get nerfed have issues.</p><p>Thats the only thing I learned from this thread.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly.</p><p>And I find it totally LOL that inquisitors are asking for wardens to be nerfed...</p>

daalberith
12-27-2011, 11:39 AM
<p>My BL did both Nektropos and DFC with the HQs attached to them while they still conned to him. He did it wearing trash gear (random drops and quests) with no help other than his warder and the only upgrades he has for his CAs were the ones that he had from drops. Prince Valtoris was the only hard part because he kept chain fearing my warder. In between I was doing stuff like chain killing +4-5 harpies in Steamfont for L&L and language updates just because.</p><p>To contrast my mains since original EQ have always tended to be shaman. My old defiler or my current mystic might have been able to struggle through soloing that at comperable levels with better gear and upgraded spells, but it woud have taken a lot longer to get accomplished and been a bit messier I'm sure.</p><p>So, the game has gotten easier over the years, that is a problem with this sort of game design*. But I really think BL is a bit over powered leveling up right now and not good for comparisons. I won't be surprised to see it getting 'adjusted' soon enough.</p><p>*even aside from the devs purposefully dumbing it down.</p>

Crillus
12-27-2011, 01:28 PM
<p><cite>Mohee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>P.S. Even EQ1 has been changed so much that a 3 year old can play it. There's no challenge anymore. Risk vs. Reward is gone. And its never coming back...</p></blockquote><p>Sadly.</p><p>And the problem with this is that 'human psychology' will never get a 'thrill' out of anything - that doesn't include a risk.</p><p>I do believe a risk is 100% required for a 'thrill'.</p><p>Think about things that are 'thrilling' and they all have risk: Rollercoasters, Skydiving, Racing, White Water Rafting, etc.</p><p>There is simply 0% risk of losing anything in this MMO or others now - so therefore, there cannot be a 'thrill'. At level 1, I can zone into the highest zone in the game and go wander around - zero risk of losing anything - at all. Repair bills is it - from level 1 to level 90 - that's the only risk you'll ever get, a small percentage of XP debt and a repair bill that can easily be paid from just simple coin drops.</p><p>EQLive was 'thrilling' simply<strong> because of the risk. </strong>There's really no two ways about it.</p><p>If you logged in at level one in EQLive - you wouldn't make it to the highest level zone and if you did, you'd loose everything you had on you. Of course, with a level 1 'mule' character - it wouldn't matter, but at level 14, with you finally getting some 'ok' gear - it was a big deal indeed.</p><p>It made the dungeon seem dangerous - it made long treks risky, it made all of that.</p><p>MMO's are so dull now, I almost can't get into them - I like EQ2 for the community, but there is no thrill. Is there?</p><p>If you die - you are just as you were, minus a small bit of coin for repairs. In EQLive, if you die in Chardok (in the old days at least) - good luck my friend... lol</p><p>I dunno how death and corpse summoning works in EQ1 now.</p><p>I like the idea though of a corpse summoner, but it should come with a cost...</p>

Mohee
12-27-2011, 01:42 PM
<p>The Guild Lobby in EQ1 (zone off of PoKnowledge) has NPC's that summon your corpse by handing them an item that is purchased from nearby merchants. The price of these items is the equivelent of a tiny repair bill in EQ2. So to 99% of the EQ1 players, the cost is a joke. And there's usually always clerics sitting in the guild lobby ready to 90%+ Rez for free.</p><p>And EQ1 also has guild halls with a transporting funcion that allows you to get to many many zones that PoKnowledge doesn't have. So traveling anywhere is a joke there as well.</p>

Illmarr
12-27-2011, 03:24 PM
<p><cite>Mohee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Guild Lobby in EQ1 (zone off of PoKnowledge) has NPC's that summon your corpse by handing them an item that is purchased from nearby merchants. The price of these items is the equivelent of a tiny repair bill in EQ2. So to 99% of the EQ1 players, the cost is a joke. And there's usually always clerics sitting in the guild lobby ready to 90%+ Rez for free.</p><p>And EQ1 also has guild halls with a transporting funcion that allows you to get to many many zones that PoKnowledge doesn't have. So traveling anywhere is a joke there as well.</p></blockquote><p>WHich just proves the point the previous poster made about EQ1. NO GUild Hall was in game even when Planes of Power released, I think it came with either GoD or OoW. The travel from GH started with DoDH if I remember right, least that's the first time I remember using it to get to the Darkhollow zones.</p>

Tylia
12-27-2011, 04:25 PM
<p><cite>Luscai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just done a check on Oasis for level 90 healers.But look at Wardens (17) versus Fury (3). Looks like a very clear sign that Wardens need to be slammed with the nerf bat.</p></blockquote><p>No, they dont need a nerf bat. If anything, Fury needs to be improved. Asking for a nerfbat means that you might end up with two unpopular classes.</p><p>From the moment new players keep getting told that Fury sucks and Wardens are great, that more and more new players will roll a Warden just based on word of mouth instead of own experience. And few will roll a Fury anymore. This can also exaggerate the impression that the unbalance should give. My point is that Warden could be just fine and that Fury just needs an improvement.</p><p>Never ask for a nerf bat imo.</p></blockquote><p>I love my Fury.  She is a blast to play and can hold her own on most anything she does, even solo-healing a mage group on a HM raid name.  My very first character was a Templar, which I betrayed to Inquisitor (because personally I do not like the Templar class) earlier this year.  She is also a lot of fun to play, and Verdict is my favorite button.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />  I am now raising a Mystic and having a great time playing that class.  I've tried a Warden and a Defiler several times, and end up deleting them each time because I just don't enjoy those classes.  I've also tried several different mage classes and they never last long either.  I love my Dirge and my little Ranger as well.  It's all a matter of personal opinion and preference, and people should play the classes that they get the most enjoyment from.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>