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View Full Version : Dungeon Finder needs improvement


thorn
12-25-2011, 07:10 PM
<p>Hate the long wait just to see everyone quit out, you end up waiting for hours. Why cant it work like Battle ground making it a cross server group? Is that too tough?</p>

deadcrickets2
12-25-2011, 09:01 PM
<p>Cross server is coming as well as other fixes.</p>

Felshades
12-26-2011, 12:17 AM
<p><cite>deadcrickets2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cross server is coming as well as other fixes.</p></blockquote><p>It won't help.</p><p>It was junk at launch, and no one will use it even if they do fix it.</p>

SmokeJumper
12-26-2011, 03:46 AM
<p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p>

Dekedar
12-26-2011, 04:42 AM
<p>What are the daily rewards? I'm not going to bother logging in to find out what they've added to try and pursuade me to use a feature that's already failed on a server by server basis. Make it cross server and we might have a chance at getting some use out of it, I hope so at any rate.</p>

Luterin
12-26-2011, 08:41 AM
<p>The reward is awesome! I got a stack of pretty non-tradeable arrows on my Inquisitor! *ponder*</p><p>Why couldnt they just award bonus shards if you complete dungeons via the dungeon finder, that way people might actually have an incentive to use it.</p>

TwistedFaith
12-26-2011, 09:09 AM
<p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. </p>

MurFalad
12-26-2011, 10:08 AM
<p><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. </p></blockquote><p>WoW's dungeon finder system always has offered rewards for using it, while I'm no fan of the cross server functionality and prefer players to be in charge of forming groups its a working system, actually a lot of WoW's systems have extra incentives tied to them to make them work.  I still prefer to form my own groups, for that reason I wish that we could grab people from the DF queue for our own dungeon groups with incentives attached to bringing worse geared/experienced players...</p><p>I've used the current one a few times, I'm not sure why so many groups disband before all of the group members have even had time to say yes.  It would work better and be less disruptive to players if people were not transported to the dungeon until everyone who had queued has accepted the group (people who turn it down now should get the debuff, people who accept shouldn't even if the group fails to form), although I guess that won't solve the key problem.</p><p>Which I guess is caused by people joining the queue and then turning down the dungeon due to it not being one they want, not sure how to fix this without making all dungeons drop the same quality loot and have the same difficulty. </p><p>One incentive could be to have a good reward for using the dungeon finder (equivalent to a PQ chest) but to have a 1 hour debuff for turning down a df group that disqualifies people from the chest?</p>

Luterin
12-26-2011, 10:22 AM
<p><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. </p></blockquote><p>If anything it's an indication that the players are rubbish, not the tool, because the tool works just fine. It's just sad that the players needs to be bribed to use it because they consider themselves better than most and don't want to sink to the level where they join pugs.</p><p>Had people been less elitist and more openminded things would have worked out alot better overall.</p>

bks6721
12-26-2011, 10:54 AM
<p>I've had very little success with dungeon finder.  I'd say 80% of my formed groups disband before ever pulling a mob.  On the other hand, I've run Pools in groups that most people wouldn't even consider trying because it wasn't the ideal setup.  Some of my most fun groups ever have been non standard groups. </p><p>Who here would try a TSO dungeon with 3 templars, no mercs?   3 of us in my guild like to try stuff like this for FUN.  Some people have lost sight of why they even play this game.</p>

flay_wind
12-26-2011, 11:17 AM
<p><cite>Luterin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish.</p></blockquote><p>If anything it's an indication that the players are rubbish, not the tool, because the tool works just fine. It's just sad that the players needs to be bribed to use it because they consider themselves better than most and don't want to sink to the level where they join pugs.</p><p>Had people been less elitist and more openminded things would have worked out alot better overall.</p></blockquote><p>Oookay here's the situation. You're doing Fortress Spire a.k.a. Rime 3. DF tool makes group of undergeared monk, warlock, wizard and let's say defiler, mystic and templar. How far will you make it with this group?</p>

deadcrickets2
12-26-2011, 11:30 AM
<p>I've had zero problems getting groups in seconds (on Freeport which is now the home of all of mine) and holding groups on mine.  It seems like most of the complaints are from those trying to use it for DoV.   I can almost guess why it's occuring.  That is not to say there aren't some major bugs in Dungeon Finder; I've sent in bug reports on several.  </p><p>I question why people are attempting to use Dungeon Finder for DoV as it is.  A lot of the dungeons there have gear requirements and I'm fairly certain some are ditching out either due to someone not having the right gear in the group or they've seen some less than stellar performance from a group member or four.   I would stick to guild members for DoV.</p>

bks6721
12-26-2011, 11:30 AM
<p><cite>flay_wind wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Luterin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish.</p></blockquote><p>If anything it's an indication that the players are rubbish, not the tool, because the tool works just fine. It's just sad that the players needs to be bribed to use it because they consider themselves better than most and don't want to sink to the level where they join pugs.</p><p>Had people been less elitist and more openminded things would have worked out alot better overall.</p></blockquote><p>Oookay here's the situation. You're doing Fortress Spire a.k.a. Rime 3. DF tool makes group of undergeared monk, warlock, wizard and let's say defiler, mystic and templar. How far will you make it with this group?</p></blockquote><p>imho, thats a problem with the dungeon, not the dungeon finder.   In ANY other expansion you'd be able to kill with a group like that.  Sure, it won't be trouble free but that setup should be able to run a heroic instance.</p>

Luterin
12-26-2011, 12:27 PM
<p><cite>flay_wind wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oookay here's the situation. You're doing Fortress Spire a.k.a. Rime 3. DF tool makes group of undergeared monk, warlock, wizard and let's say defiler, mystic and templar. How far will you make it with this group?</p></blockquote><p>The dungeon finder has minimum gear requirements on dungeons that needs it, and its extremely rare, if it even happends, that it puts together a group that can't do the content. Most people are just spoiled thou and want easymode runs with overgeared people. Or are they just very bad players so they cant play intended for when its intended and need to overgear it?</p>

Gaealiege
12-26-2011, 12:34 PM
<p>No, it's incredibly OFTEN that the dungeon finder forms a completely fail-based group.  I used it for an entire week so that I could say "Yes I gave this a try."</p><p>In that entire week 90% of the groups I joined (all in DoV) contained at least one player who either didn't have items in some slots or was wearing the best level 70 treasured you ever saw in his slots.</p><p>It's not elitist to want to finish a zone in reasonable amount of time.  Rezzing the imbecile in full treasured 30 times and wasting 3 bots on him, just to clear a trivial zone in 3 hours.  I'll pass, but thanks for the offer.</p>

Supremeninja
12-26-2011, 12:47 PM
I can say the reward is epic! I finally got a chest piece so now i dont have to do ring war anymore

Luterin
12-26-2011, 01:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, it's incredibly OFTEN that the dungeon finder forms a completely fail-based group.  I used it for an entire week so that I could say "Yes I gave this a try."</p><p>In that entire week 90% of the groups I joined (all in DoV) contained at least one player who either didn't have items in some slots or was wearing the best level 70 treasured you ever saw in his slots.</p><p>It's not elitist to want to finish a zone in reasonable amount of time.  Rezzing the imbecile in full treasured 30 times and wasting 3 bots on him, just to clear a trivial zone in 3 hours.  I'll pass, but thanks for the offer.</p></blockquote><p>And my dungeon finder groups in DoV works out just fine atleast 90%+ of the time. So either its a server thing, or perhaps it's a you thing? Those the only 2 common factors it seems...</p>

Mohee
12-26-2011, 01:56 PM
<p>20-89 groups are more rare because most people dont want to group between those levels. Mainly because you level 3-5x faster solo questing then dungeon crawling. Not to mention the lvl 20-89 dungeons have absolute useless junk for drops. You're better of questing for treasured gear.</p>

Neiloch
12-26-2011, 03:58 PM
<p>The problem I run into the most is that people are waiting in queue for so long that 90% of the time when a group is finally put together one of the members has went AFK thus we have 4-5 people in the zone waiting on a key member like a tank or healer.</p><p>If it's not that and the group isn't AFK in DF, its a gear problem. Gear/stat requirements need to be put in place for EVERY dungeon, or at the very least the level 90 ones. I'm not saying they should be high but when I get in a group with MANY undergeared players in one of the harder 'no gear requirement' dungeons it is QUITE frustrating. When my ranger tanks better than the guardian because they are wearing treasured/legendary and not even half adorned, it makes me just want to drop. But then <strong>I'M</strong> the jerk for leaving, not the person who is queueing up for dungeons they are much too undergeared for.</p><p>Just base it on their main stat. IE. fighters need to have <em>x </em>amount of strength for <em>y</em> dungeon. This would work pretty well since better equipment tends to have higher class stat and stamina in most cases. Works well in Rift although their itemization might be handled better.</p>

bohohoboprobono
12-26-2011, 05:25 PM
<p><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. </p></blockquote><p>WoW's dungeon finder works perfectly and they've offered special rewards (for picking random) since its inception.</p><p>EQ2's dungeon finder will work when it's cross-server, ignores mercenaries, and absolutely positively will not start til there's a full group and everyone has confirmed they're ready... in other words, like WoW's.</p><p>As for dealing with bads?  That's the risk of every group, especially in DF.  </p><p>Here's why people queue for DF, in order of most probable to least:</p><p>-They're shy.  DF is inherently asocial.  This doesn't prevent any of the rest from being true.</p><p>-They play a class that's never requested in LFM spam (ie, anything other than Healer/Bard).</p><p>-They want an environment where they can learn a dungeon (fail at it) without tarnishing their name.</p><p>-They have terrible gear and know they'd be kicked or rejected if inspected.</p><p><p>-They already have a tarnished name from being bad.</p><p>-They're a new 90 without twinking funds and need to do dungeons that other people moved on from months ago.</p><p>-They're guildless, or in a guild that doesn't run organize groups.</p><p>-They want a quick dungeon run without the hassle of LFG spam.</p></p><p>The DF, as an idea, is set up to fail.  However, it's been proven to be an effective system in other games.  Unconfident players rise to the challenge in a "safe" environment.  The myth of the "perfect group" gets shattered (hint:  you really really really really don't need a Bard and Enchanter for everything, folks).  Ragtag groups are some of the most fun -- and the best, most skillful groups -- I've ever been in.  When you're short a force multiplier like a Bard, people have to dig deeper into their bag of tricks to make mindless, brute-forcible fights into something more cerebral.</p>

Moldylocks
12-26-2011, 06:11 PM
<p><cite>bohohoboprobono wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The fact that you have to reward people and offer incentives to people to use the dungeon finder should be a indication to you that the system is rubbish. </p></blockquote><p>WoW's dungeon finder works perfectly and they've offered special rewards (for picking random) since its inception.</p><p>EQ2's dungeon finder will work when it's cross-server, ignores mercenaries, and absolutely positively will not start til there's a full group and everyone has confirmed they're ready... in other words, like WoW's.</p><p>As for dealing with bads?  That's the risk of every group, especially in DF.  </p><p>Here's why people queue for DF, in order of most probable to least:</p><p>-They're shy.  DF is inherently asocial.  This doesn't prevent any of the rest from being true.</p><p>-They play a class that's never requested in LFM spam (ie, anything other than Healer/Bard).</p><p>-They want an environment where they can learn a dungeon (fail at it) without tarnishing their name.</p><p>-They have terrible gear and know they'd be kicked or rejected if inspected.</p><p>-They already have a tarnished name from being bad.</p><p>-They're a new 90 without twinking funds and need to do dungeons that other people moved on from months ago.</p><p>-They're guildless, or in a guild that doesn't run organize groups.</p><p>-They want a quick dungeon run without the hassle of LFG spam.</p><p>The DF, as an idea, is set up to fail.  However, it's been proven to be an effective system in other games.  Unconfident players rise to the challenge in a "safe" environment.  The myth of the "perfect group" gets shattered (hint:  you really really really really don't need a Bard and Enchanter for everything, folks).  Ragtag groups are some of the most fun -- and the best, most skillful groups -- I've ever been in.  When you're short a force multiplier like a Bard, people have to dig deeper into their bag of tricks to make mindless, brute-forcible fights into something more cerebral.</p></blockquote><p>That is a horribly negative perspective.  Luckily its just your subjective understanding based on your personal bias.</p><p>The tool itself is flawed, yes, and many people have given up using it in its current incarnation.  As for the "<em>type</em>" of person who uses it?  Before the DF was available, everyone was using the usual methods that have always been used, so unless the DF magically spawned this "<em>type</em>" of player you go on about, its the same pool of players as before. </p>

Glenolas
12-27-2011, 01:30 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What are the daily rewards?</p></blockquote><p>We ran Iceshard Keep 4 times since the announcement of  "sweet" rewards (an SJ term) specifically to check them out.  We chose IK because it's above the median.   9 zones easier, 6 harder.     We had farmed it dry and hadn't been there in a while.</p><p>All 6 got a drop after 20 mins in the zone,  totaling 24 drops during the test period.  </p><p>1.  Not a single item was good enough to replace any item any of the 6 were wearing, nor to pass to any alt.   They were not even a decent substitute, and most were an outright hit to the toon's stats.   Example: a "Fabled" tower shield dropped with 8% crit chance.   The two shieldbearers in the group had legendary shields with 35% and 39% crit chance each.   As important as crit chance is in game,  have a shield itemized with 8% is outright pitiful.</p><p>The loot is labeled "Fabled" but the Pot/CB stats look to be just below the drops in the lowest DOV dungeon (ToFS: Shadowed Corridors).    If you've run any DoV dungeon, or the PQ's you'll have better already.</p><p>2.  They are not tuned to the recipient toon.   A warlock got a tower shield.  A leather healer got some plate shoulders.</p><p>3.  Fabled junk can be useful as transmuter fodder, except these are not transmutable.</p><p>4.  They wind up being vendor trash, selling for slightly over a plat.</p><p>On the 3rd day of the runs,  we had a minor emergency,  calling for 2 peeps to go afk for a short time.  We had already zoned in, and gotten the shard quest, so waited for them.   Our 20 minutes elapsed during that time, and we got the reward without having killed anything.   I don't know if this is a bug, or working as expected.   A plat every 20 minutes is insignificant compared to actually farming the zones,  so I'm guessing it's intended.   Basically it's all the reward you're going to get for putting up with the DF.</p><p>Having watched SJ talking the new bonus loot up in several threads over the weekend, and having reset our 24 hour clock, we thought to run a Drunder zone to see if the loot table improved.    No joy.   We formed up, queued up,  and never got pulled in.  30 minute waits with a fully assembled group, and no joy.    We came back to the experiment 5 hours later, tried again, with the same result.    Got the message we were queued,  but never got pulled in.</p><p>I'll surmise the loot table is common to all the dungeons.   Just random items, none of which will be useful to the average toon.     The were certainly not considered very good by any of those who got them.   This looks like more hype than substance.</p>

Luterin
12-27-2011, 09:00 AM
<p><cite>Glenolas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What are the daily rewards?</p></blockquote><p>We ran Iceshard Keep 4 times since the announcement of  "sweet" rewards (an SJ term) specifically to check them out.  We chose IK because it's above the median.   9 zones easier, 6 harder.     We had farmed it dry and hadn't been there in a while.</p><p>All 6 got a drop after 20 mins in the zone,  totaling 24 drops during the test period.  </p><p>1.  Not a single item was good enough to replace any item any of the 6 were wearing, nor to pass to any alt.   They were not even a decent substitute, and most were an outright hit to the toon's stats.   Example: a "Fabled" tower shield dropped with 8% crit chance.   The two shieldbearers in the group had legendary shields with 35% and 39% crit chance each.   As important as crit chance is in game,  have a shield itemized with 8% is outright pitiful.</p><p>The loot is labeled "Fabled" but the Pot/CB stats look to be just below the drops in the lowest DOV dungeon (ToFS: Shadowed Corridors).    If you've run any DoV dungeon, or the PQ's you'll have better already.</p><p>2.  They are not tuned to the recipient toon.   A warlock got a tower shield.  A leather healer got some plate shoulders.</p><p>3.  Fabled junk can be useful as transmuter fodder, except these are not transmutable.</p><p>4.  They wind up being vendor trash, selling for slightly over a plat.</p><p>On the 3rd day of the runs,  we had a minor emergency,  calling for 2 peeps to go afk for a short time.  We had already zoned in, and gotten the shard quest, so waited for them.   Our 20 minutes elapsed during that time, and we got the reward without having killed anything.   I don't know if this is a bug, or working as expected.   A plat every 20 minutes is insignificant compared to actually farming the zones,  so I'm guessing it's intended.   Basically it's all the reward you're going to get for putting up with the DF.</p><p>Having watched SJ talking the new bonus loot up in several threads over the weekend, and having reset our 24 hour clock, we thought to run a Drunder zone to see if the loot table improved.    No joy.   We formed up, queued up,  and never got pulled in.  30 minute waits with a fully assembled group, and no joy.    We came back to the experiment 5 hours later, tried again, with the same result.    Got the message we were queued,  but never got pulled in.</p><p>I'll surmise the loot table is common to all the dungeons.   Just random items, none of which will be useful to the average toon.     The were certainly not considered very good by any of those who got them.   This looks like more hype than substance.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, they should just add shards instead of this crap as I stated in an earlier post, since most people running the instances are interested in shards, and they can also give them to their alts if they want.</p><p>I know there isn't shards systems all the way to the bottom levels, so some other sollution should perhaps be made there. Either way it's the top level instances that is the important thing due to the number of people running them compared to people running levelling dungeons...</p>

SiegaPlays
12-27-2011, 09:12 AM
<p><cite>Moldylocks wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bohohoboprobono wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's why people queue for DF, in order of most probable to least:</p><p>-They're shy.  DF is inherently asocial.  This doesn't prevent any of the rest from being true.</p><p>-They play a class that's never requested in LFM spam (ie, anything other than Healer/Bard).</p><p>-They want an environment where they can learn a dungeon (fail at it) without tarnishing their name.</p><p>-They have terrible gear and know they'd be kicked or rejected if inspected.</p><p>-They already have a tarnished name from being bad.</p><p>-They're a new 90 without twinking funds and need to do dungeons that other people moved on from months ago.</p><p>-They're guildless, or in a guild that doesn't run organize groups.</p><p>-They want a quick dungeon run without the hassle of LFG spam.</p></blockquote><p>The tool itself is flawed, yes, and many people have given up using it in its current incarnation.  As for the "<em>type</em>" of person who uses it?  Before the DF was available, everyone was using the usual methods that have always been used, so unless the DF magically spawned this "<em>type</em>" of player you go on about, its the same pool of players as before. </p></blockquote><p>I only ever group with my guildies and people I know from elsewhere. Since we - my guild - are less "organized" now with SWTOR out, I am contemplating using the dungeon finder. The thing is, without the guildies or the dungeon finder, I would not be in the market for a group. Period. Extra period. I do not pug, I do not spend hours spamming some channel and I do not group with strangers, I have to pick up at the nearest sleazy corner. Period.</p><p>So, not everyone was using the methods that have always been used for groups. </p><p>If I have to choose between solo and a dungeon finder group, I will consider dungeon finder.</p><p>If I have to choose between soloing and using lfg spamming, I'd gladly solo, craft or read the forums before I would consider going lfg in a channel.</p><p>What I am saying is that DF indeed has a chance of spawning a new type of player from the same pool of players as before. The type who did not use lfg in channels and thus rarely got around to enjoy grouping. Call it shyness, anti-social or lack of assertiveness, but there are people out there of those "types" listed and prolly more than just those listed.</p>

Moldylocks
12-27-2011, 10:55 AM
<p><cite>SiegaPlays wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Moldylocks wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bohohoboprobono wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's why people queue for DF, in order of most probable to least:</p><p>-They're shy.  DF is inherently asocial.  This doesn't prevent any of the rest from being true.</p><p>-They play a class that's never requested in LFM spam (ie, anything other than Healer/Bard).</p><p>-They want an environment where they can learn a dungeon (fail at it) without tarnishing their name.</p><p>-They have terrible gear and know they'd be kicked or rejected if inspected.</p><p>-They already have a tarnished name from being bad.</p><p>-They're a new 90 without twinking funds and need to do dungeons that other people moved on from months ago.</p><p>-They're guildless, or in a guild that doesn't run organize groups.</p><p>-They want a quick dungeon run without the hassle of LFG spam.</p></blockquote><p>The tool itself is flawed, yes, and many people have given up using it in its current incarnation.  As for the "<em>type</em>" of person who uses it?  Before the DF was available, everyone was using the usual methods that have always been used, so unless the DF magically spawned this "<em>type</em>" of player you go on about, its the same pool of players as before. </p></blockquote><p>I only ever group with my guildies and people I know from elsewhere. Since we - my guild - are less "organized" now with SWTOR out, I am contemplating using the dungeon finder. The thing is, without the guildies or the dungeon finder, I would not be in the market for a group. Period. Extra period. I do not pug, I do not spend hours spamming some channel and I do not group with strangers, I have to pick up at the nearest sleazy corner. Period.</p><p>So, not everyone was using the methods that have always been used for groups. </p><p>If I have to choose between solo and a dungeon finder group, I will consider dungeon finder.</p><p>If I have to choose between soloing and using lfg spamming, I'd gladly solo, craft or read the forums before I would consider going lfg in a channel.</p><p>What I am saying is that DF indeed has a chance of spawning a new type of player from the same pool of players as before. The type who did not use lfg in channels and thus rarely got around to enjoy grouping. Call it shyness, anti-social or lack of assertiveness, but there are people out there of those "types" listed and prolly more than just those listed.</p></blockquote><p>Before DF, the usual methods of finding groups <em>included</em> guild groups, as well as lfg channels, 1-9, etc.  You are still trying to smear the DF users with a tainted brush.  You are basing your assertions on personal opinion and that is all, that is, unless you've done some research on at least 100 people that includes a full personality profile.  That might interest me.  Your invented sterotype to defend your own bias, not so interesting.</p><p>That said, I am done with you and your negative opinion and I'm not going to turn this into a back and forth arguement.</p>

SiegaPlays
12-27-2011, 11:05 AM
<p><cite>Moldylocks wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Before DF, the usual methods of finding groups <em>included</em> guild groups, as well as lfg channels, 1-9, etc.  You are still trying to smear the DF users with a tainted brush.  You are basing your assertions on personal opinion and that is all, that is, unless you've done some research on at least 100 people that includes a full personality profile.  That might interest me.  Your invented sterotype to defend your own bias, not so interesting.</p><p>That said, I am done with you and your negative opinion and I'm not going to turn this into a back and forth arguement.</p></blockquote><p>You never said such a thing. I described how I feel about lfg, not how anyone else feels about it. I did so in response to your assumption that only those who used to use lfg in chats are the pool that also do dungeon finder.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-27-2011, 11:40 AM
<p>The problem isn't Dungeon Finder, the problem is the game.</p><p>6 people who want ' to explore and adventure' can't do these zones.  You need to be a min/maxer with ACT running and know your parse and until recently (ie when it no longer mattered) there was the crit mit check and then follow the scripts like mini raids.  Cross Server isn't going to change a flippin thing.</p><p>That is why people do not run zones unless it is with guildees.  Because they want their token out of the hamster lever in 10 minutes.</p>

Gaealiege
12-27-2011, 12:17 PM
<p>I'm in full raid gear, mainly HM Lutherin.  There's a 0% chance it's me.  I think you're just in here lying to seem credible.  Anyone that posts in these forums can come in here and divulge their stories with how pathetically designed DF is and how nearly every group the joined is filled with mental invalids.</p><p>There should just be a flatout gear check.  Not in full level 90 legendary?  Not allowed to queue up for DoV instances.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-27-2011, 12:26 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm in full raid gear, mainly HM Lutherin.  There's a 0% chance it's me.  I think you're just in here lying to seem credible.  Anyone that posts in these forums can come in here and divulge their stories with how pathetically designed DF is and how nearly every group the joined is filled with mental invalids.</p><p>There should just be a flatout gear check.  Not in full level 90 legendary?  Not allowed to queue up for DoV instances.</p></blockquote><p>So . . . . I need the gear from the zones to run the zones.  Or perhaps you are saying i need the raid gear from above the zones to run the zones.</p><p>This post (ie this player mentality) is exactly what is wrong with DF.</p>

Gaealiege
12-27-2011, 12:38 PM
<p>SF will gear you out.  Your mentaliy is the improper one.  What happened to working your way through prior content to be able to beat newer content?</p><p>People in even a single piece of treasured shouldn't be allowed in DF DoV zones, ever.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-27-2011, 12:44 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SF will gear you out.  Your mentaliy is the improper one.  What happened to working your way through prior content to be able to beat newer content?</p><p>People in even a single piece of treasured shouldn't be allowed in DF DoV zones, ever.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't say treasured, you said you were in HM gear and a person should be in 90 legendary AND I would point out that most groups will boot you if you are in SF EM raid gear even.  SF legendary is abyssmal low on stats due to the gear revamp (nerf).</p><p>But I will re-iterate that your mentality is why DF will always be fail.  There is nothing $OE can do to it to change that.</p>

Raknid
12-27-2011, 01:55 PM
<p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>People in even a single piece of treasured shouldn't be allowed in DF DoV zones, ever.</p></blockquote><p>But I will re-iterate that your mentality is why DF will always be fail.  There is nothing $OE can do to it to change that.</p></blockquote><p>Are you actually disagreeing with that?</p>

Mohee
12-27-2011, 02:16 PM
<p>This morning, after about 2 hours of waiting in the DF queue, I finally got a group for The Ascent, I quickly clicked yes!</p><p>Sadly it was a group of just me (90 Conj) and a 90 assassin that declined the group.</p><p>Wow really? 2 people and the Dungeon Finder said the group was ready. Bravo DF, bravo.</p><p>Needless to say I solo'd most the zone and finished the task and got the key for the shard chest =)</p><p>This experience, one reason I never use the dungeon finder. I still give it a try from time to time, and this is pretty much what always happens.</p><p>Not to mention I LOL at the estimated waiting times. For almost all zones it was between 1-10 minutes. Yet I had to wait over TWO HOURS for the first invite to come along.</p><p>I like how the Battleground estimated wait time for me is stuck on 16 seconds for all the BG's, yet you can sit in queue for over 5+ hours without getting a BG invite. </p>

Raffir
12-27-2011, 03:30 PM
<p>I use DF on the weekends, Mohee, for my mid level un guilded Mystic.  I usually run with 3-5 groups per day.  Some groups work, some fail..mostly due (in my experience) to the lack of Tanks.</p><p>That said, weekdays?  Hard to get DF to put a group together.</p><p>Yeah..I have a big guild.  Love those guys..but sometimes (after all these years)...just need some time to run with anyone else.</p><p>Raf</p>

Neiloch
12-27-2011, 03:40 PM
<p><cite>Mohee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This morning, after about 2 hours of waiting in the DF queue, I finally got a group for The Ascent, I quickly clicked yes!</p><p>Sadly it was a group of just me (90 Conj) and a 90 assassin that declined the group.</p><p>Wow really? 2 people and the Dungeon Finder said the group was ready. Bravo DF, bravo.</p><p>Needless to say I solo'd most the zone and finished the task and got the key for the shard chest =)</p><p>This experience, one reason I never use the dungeon finder. I still give it a try from time to time, and this is pretty much what always happens.</p><p>Not to mention I LOL at the estimated waiting times. For almost all zones it was between 1-10 minutes. Yet I had to wait over TWO HOURS for the first invite to come along.</p><p>I like how the Battleground estimated wait time for me is stuck on 16 seconds for all the BG's, yet you can sit in queue for over 5+ hours without getting a BG invite. </p></blockquote><p>What happend Mohee is that the DF took so long the other 4 people were AFK and just never clicked yes. This is because DF puts the prompt up and zones people if enough people are queued opposed to waiting until all 6 people hit yes to zone them in. the assassin prolly declined because he forgot he queued up and started doing something else entirely.</p><p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem isn't Dungeon Finder, the problem is the game.</p><p>6 people who want ' to explore and adventure' can't do these zones.  You need to be a min/maxer with ACT running and know your parse and until recently (ie when it no longer mattered) there was the crit mit check and then follow the scripts like mini raids.  Cross Server isn't going to change a flippin thing.</p><p>That is why people do not run zones unless it is with guildees.  Because they want their token out of the hamster lever in 10 minutes.</p></blockquote><p>What are you talking about? When I did manage to get full DF groups that were successful nothing like this happened. No one was running ACT and the scripts were minor at best. Unless you expect to successfully run EVERY group dungeon with poor gear and a lazy mentality, which is just silly. the main problems we ran into were some of them were simply not geared enough for dungeons they were queueing up for. It's a gear based game, if you expect to run most of the content without continuously upgrading your gear, again, that is just silly.</p> <p>A gear check will not require you run the zones to have the gear to run the easier zones. FYI some of the dungeons are easier than others so therefore they would have a lower gear requirement. Don't act like a gear check for DF is something new either, it's a time tested working method for this type of feature. They do it based on stats and not tier of equipment (legendary, fabled, etc.) and rightly so. they required crit mit check for the harder zones which was a good idea. Now they need to do a check based on some other common stat for the others. As I suggested earlier it should check the main stat for this. Something on the dungeon saying "You will need X of your main statistic to queue for this dungeon"</p><p>The mistake SoE made was if they are going to use a feature from other MMO's they should also learn from their growing pains and copy the feature <strong>IN FULL</strong>. If they did this we would have a game wide DF with a proper gear check that rewards people with exp bonus and extra loot for choosing 'random' and successfully finishing the dungeon. This would have been a huge success from day one. Now the EQ2 DF will have a stigma attateched to it that will take a lot of time to shake off even if they do fix it 100%.</p>

Luterin
12-27-2011, 04:37 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm in full raid gear, mainly HM Lutherin.  There's a 0% chance it's me.  I think you're just in here lying to seem credible.  Anyone that posts in these forums can come in here and divulge their stories with how pathetically designed DF is and how nearly every group the joined is filled with mental invalids.</p><p>There should just be a flatout gear check.  Not in full level 90 legendary?  Not allowed to queue up for DoV instances.</p></blockquote><p>I just ran 3 DF DoV instances back to back, 2 of which didn't have a full group until midway, and they all worked out great.</p><p>So the problem seems to be related to you or your server. And btw, having good gear doesn't mean that you can actually play. Far from it. Especially those that use their gear as an argument are usually not the best players.</p>

Crillus
12-27-2011, 05:04 PM
<p><cite>Luterin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm in full raid gear, mainly HM Lutherin.  There's a 0% chance it's me.  I think you're just in here lying to seem credible.  Anyone that posts in these forums can come in here and divulge their stories with how pathetically designed DF is and how nearly every group the joined is filled with mental invalids.</p><p>There should just be a flatout gear check.  Not in full level 90 legendary?  Not allowed to queue up for DoV instances.</p></blockquote><p>I just ran 3 DF DoV instances back to back, 2 of which didn't have a full group until midway, and they all worked out great.</p><p>So the problem seems to be related to you or your server. And btw, having good gear doesn't mean that you can actually play. Far from it. Especially those that use their gear as an argument are usually not the best players.</p></blockquote><p>I find it much more fun to try and do a dungeon that you are in fact under geared for - but most of the time it seems like people just want to steam roll through the dungeons real quick.</p><p>I would really hate the idea of  some 'gear score' system coming to EQ2 - it blasts the whole game to the point of just a pointless numbers game of raiding for gear so you can get gear to raid for more gear.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-27-2011, 05:32 PM
<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>People in even a single piece of treasured shouldn't be allowed in DF DoV zones, ever.</p></blockquote><p>But I will re-iterate that your mentality is why DF will always be fail.  There is nothing $OE can do to it to change that.</p></blockquote><p>Are you actually disagreeing with that?</p></blockquote><p>I've seen treasured pieces that were better than legendary, so that one line doesn't cover it.</p>

Megavolt
12-27-2011, 05:56 PM
<p>Honestly I think Dungeon Finder should have been tied into Looking for Player side of the LFG tool, and empty slots filled with automatic mercs until someone que's in sought role, on it's own non-lockout version of the current zones.</p><p>Sounds complicated, but It's really not.</p><p>Basically it would play out like this; A group of 3 friends want to run a zone, but they're lacking in some way to actually run it. They enter the zone and throw up the LFP window and select the roles they need. One gets filled because someone was cued for that zone, the other two spots pull merc NPC's so they can go ahead and start the zone. As they are completing the zone the merc's are replaced by 2 players that have qued for that zone.</p><p>Having no timer on the zones would keep people from feeling shafted from coming in late and not being able to play the whole zone. Filling the empty slots with system mercs (as oppossed to player mercs) would allow those that want to start the group to have instant action, waiting kills any system.</p>

Neiloch
12-27-2011, 06:13 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would really hate the idea of  some 'gear score' system coming to EQ2 - it blasts the whole game to the point of just a pointless numbers game of raiding for gear so you can get gear to raid for more gear.</p></blockquote><p>there already is gear score its just not put into a number called 'gear score'. With the velious gear look at two pieces for the same slot. If one has more stamina (and main stat, their both the same usually) the one with more stamina is better than the other, more often than not. there are exceptions of course, usually because some stat is close to capped or severe diminishing returns, so if the 'better' item has that stat it doesn't look as good. But I gaurantee the gear score they were planning on then hid would show the item with higher base stats would have a higher score as well.</p><p>This <strong>IS</strong> a gear based game. Just because you have managed to get by with little to no concern about gear doesn't change that.</p><p>As for the objections to gear checks for DF there is a very easy and currently available solution: don't use it. If you don't like that line I hope you were never one of the people that said or supported the tired line of 'then don't buy it' when it came to AoD objections, since you would then be a hypocrite.</p><p>Gear checks shouldn't be based on tier of equipment though, should be more like a 'stat check', much like Rift.</p>

Raffir
12-27-2011, 06:26 PM
<p>Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.</p><p>DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.</p><p>Raf</p>

Crismorn
12-27-2011, 06:59 PM
<p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm in full raid gear, mainly HM Lutherin.  There's a 0% chance it's me.  I think you're just in here lying to seem credible.  Anyone that posts in these forums can come in here and divulge their stories with how pathetically designed DF is and how nearly every group the joined is filled with mental invalids.</p><p>There should just be a flatout gear check.  Not in full level 90 legendary?  Not allowed to queue up for DoV instances.</p></blockquote><p>So . . . . I need the gear from the zones to run the zones.  Or perhaps you are saying i need the raid gear from above the zones to run the zones.</p><p>This post (ie this player mentality) is exactly what is wrong with DF.</p></blockquote><p>You get a full set of legendary quest rewards from doing the DoV quests and you can do the PQ's for armor slots before going lfg at 90, this would be fair to everyone.</p>

Lodengarl
12-27-2011, 07:00 PM
<p>Quick question - are the incentives actual quests for queueing up for any random dungeons or just extra loot/XP?  Wanted to ask if anyone got a quest related to doing a random DF.  Thanks.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-27-2011, 07:01 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm in full raid gear, mainly HM Lutherin.  There's a 0% chance it's me.  I think you're just in here lying to seem credible.  Anyone that posts in these forums can come in here and divulge their stories with how pathetically designed DF is and how nearly every group the joined is filled with mental invalids.</p><p>There should just be a flatout gear check.  Not in full level 90 legendary?  Not allowed to queue up for DoV instances.</p></blockquote><p>So . . . . I need the gear from the zones to run the zones.  Or perhaps you are saying i need the raid gear from above the zones to run the zones.</p><p>This post (ie this player mentality) is exactly what is wrong with DF.</p></blockquote><p>You get a full set of legendary quest rewards from doing the DoV quests and you can do the PQ's for armor slots before going lfg at 90, this would be fair to everyone.</p></blockquote><p>I would bet 10p that neither you nor <em><a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> would take someone in PQ/othmir quested gear.</em></p>

Crismorn
12-27-2011, 07:12 PM
<p>I would play or take anyone who at least tries to meet the pre-reqs, because it shows they at least care enough about their toon to do so which in turn means they care about succeeding and they at least try to help to their potential in the task ahead of us.</p><p>The people who queue up DoV dungeons in treasured gear without even venturing into DoV do not care about their toon enough to do that content, they do not care or acknowledge that the other 5 people in their group did meet those pre-reqs and their actions are telling the group that they simply don't care.</p>

SmokeJumper
12-28-2011, 02:35 AM
<p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.</p><p>DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote><p>This attitude is what we hope to bolster with the current random item incentive you get each day. This kind of "see if you can overcome the challenges with what's at hand" attitude is what DF is kind of all about. The incentives are reward for those that want to face that kind of game.</p><p>However, it's become obvious that although that works for 1-89, and even in SF, it doesn't work in Velious because of the difficulty of those dungeons. We're discussing potential fixes after the new year. Expect a staged solution so that DF becomes more what you're looking for.</p>

Neiloch
12-28-2011, 04:48 AM
<p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.</p><p>DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote><p>This attitude is what we hope to bolster with the current random item incentive you get each day. This kind of "see if you can overcome the challenges with what's at hand" attitude is what DF is kind of all about. The incentives are reward for those that want to face that kind of game.</p><p>However, it's become obvious that although that works for 1-89, and even in SF, it doesn't work in Velious because of the difficulty of those dungeons. We're discussing potential fixes after the new year. Expect a staged solution so that DF becomes more what you're looking for.</p></blockquote><p>I am all for that honestly but.....</p><p>there is a HUGE difference between an atypical, sub-optimal group or one where members can't even take a hit. There is a difference between playing the hand you got, using your strengths or having to stack healers and use no more than auto attack so the tank can actually function as a tank.</p><p>If a Velious dungeon can't be ran in velious treasured/quested or less it REALLY needs to have a gear check in regards to the DF.</p>

bks6721
12-28-2011, 06:08 AM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm in full raid gear, mainly HM Lutherin.  There's a 0% chance it's me.  I think you're just in here lying to seem credible.  Anyone that posts in these forums can come in here and divulge their stories with how pathetically designed DF is and how nearly every group the joined is filled with mental invalids.</p><p>There should just be a flatout gear check.  Not in full level 90 legendary?  Not allowed to queue up for DoV instances.</p></blockquote><p>So . . . . I need the gear from the zones to run the zones.  Or perhaps you are saying i need the raid gear from above the zones to run the zones.</p><p>This post (ie this player mentality) is exactly what is wrong with DF.</p></blockquote><p>You get a full set of legendary quest rewards from doing the DoV quests and you can do the PQ's for armor slots before going lfg at 90, this would be fair to everyone.</p></blockquote><p>in that gear you quickly get booted from an Ascent group because you can't do 100k dps.   I know that gear is good enough but too many people demand 10 minute zone clears,  ie eazymode.</p>

bks6721
12-28-2011, 06:12 AM
<p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.</p><p>DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote><p>This attitude is what we hope to bolster with the current random item incentive you get each day. This kind of "see if you can overcome the challenges with what's at hand" attitude is what DF is kind of all about. The incentives are reward for those that want to face that kind of game.</p><p>However, it's become obvious that although that works for 1-89, and even in SF, it doesn't work in Velious because of the difficulty of those dungeons. We're discussing potential fixes after the new year. Expect a staged solution so that DF becomes more what you're looking for.</p></blockquote><p>thats a nice idea, but since you let raiders sell raid loot they now expect EVERYONE to wear it even for the simple dungeons.</p>

Guy De Alsace
12-28-2011, 08:17 AM
<p>Thats precisely it. Now that SLR has become commonplace, if you <em>don't</em> have the gear you can't do the zones as the group will kick you out without the right gear. Now you have to buy your way in. It's a ludicrous situation.</p><p>You only have to see the clamouring for the gear in channels to see people out there are desperate for it and are willing to pay an insane amount of plat for gear. Several thousand plat in most cases.</p>

Elomort
12-28-2011, 08:34 AM
<p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>The incentives can never make up for the poor group forming unfortunately and where EQ2 DR fails is often witht he scripts and DPS checks put in for optimal grouping. I hate to say it, but as long as you keep throwing sub-optimal groups at dungeons your very own traps are going to make people hate SF and stop running it.</p><p>When you do get to working on it please do the following:</p><p>Cross server. This is a given and must happen.</p><p>You must allow people to choose a role. Tank, healer, DPS, Support. There were too many people in DPS gear who ended up being the tank by default in places they were being one shot.</p><p>For those dungeons like Rime Spires where you need to have a certain group make up (healer and a rezzer in this case) please make sure you don't send in a group that just can't get past the scripts.</p><p>Please group like people together, at worst one either way. Improve the "gearscore" so that you don't end up with a group who is unlikely to pass any DPS checks you have scripted.</p><p>Fix looting so that people can't need on anything that is not in their class and so the need option is greyed out on collections and quest items.</p><p>Make sure that /ignore will never group you with that person.</p><p>Make everyone click accept before zoning in. If you don't get a full group then please leave them outside. Nothing worse than zoning in and seeing 1/2 the group declined.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Stop SLR</span>. It must be killed off, and fast.</p><p>There are more, just can't recall them all right now.</p>

millie
12-28-2011, 09:45 AM
<p><cite>Elomort wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>The incentives can never make up for the poor group forming unfortunately and where EQ2 DR fails is often witht he scripts and DPS checks put in for optimal grouping. I hate to say it, but as long as you keep throwing sub-optimal groups at dungeons your very own traps are going to make people hate SF and stop running it.</p><p>When you do get to working on it please do the following:</p><p>Cross server. This is a given and must happen.</p><p>You must allow people to choose a role. Tank, healer, DPS, Support. There were too many people in DPS gear who ended up being the tank by default in places they were being one shot.</p><p>For those dungeons like Rime Spires where you need to have a certain group make up (healer and a rezzer in this case) please make sure you don't send in a group that just can't get past the scripts.</p><p>Please group like people together, at worst one either way. Improve the "gearscore" so that you don't end up with a group who is unlikely to pass any DPS checks you have scripted.</p><p>Fix looting so that people can't need on anything that is not in their class and so the need option is greyed out on collections and quest items.</p><p>Make sure that /ignore will never group you with that person.</p><p>Make everyone click accept before zoning in. If you don't get a full group then please leave them outside. Nothing worse than zoning in and seeing 1/2 the group declined.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Stop SLR</span>. It must be killed off, and fast.</p><p>There are more, just can't recall them all right now.</p></blockquote><p>there is only one way of stopping SLR...</p><p>As long as raid gear is better for doing heroic instances than heroic gear people will want it.</p><p>If they want it someone will find some way of selling it.</p><p>Make raid gear only better than heroic gear for doing raid instances.</p><p>Make it the same or worse than heroic gear for doing heroic instances and SLR will stop over night.</p><p>... and befor you start talking about Drunder gear or EoW gear, just think; isnt it the people in raid gear that are happily SLR for that too, because it is so much easier for them to get it in raid gear?</p>

Roast22
12-28-2011, 10:01 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SF will gear you out.  Your mentaliy is the improper one.  What happened to working your way through prior content to be able to beat newer content?</p><p><strong>People in even a single piece of treasured shouldn't be allowed in DF DoV zones, ever.</strong></p></blockquote><p>This doesn't even go far enough imo, you could do all of the solo quest lines in DoV and get all legendary que for DF and be thrown into ToRZ as the main tank.  That is clearly broken.</p><p>Much of the problem in DF is that the zones where not designed with DF in mind (as DF was created after) and thus the devs are struggling to incoprate them in a way that works.</p><p>There are really only 2 ways of fixing DF</p><p>1) We add the gear score to ensure that groups have players that are capable of being in the zone without being a drain on the group and ensuring that the group makeup is set to allow the zone to be completed (I have no problem with odd group makeups but some zones required certain makeups ie ToT needs 2 tanks.</p><p>2) Players progress is tracked through DoV Heroic instances, they start at ToFS: SC and may not progress to the ToFS: Umbral Halls untill SC is successfuly completed and so on and so forth untill all zones are unlocked.  Or rather than by zone it could be done by Tier.</p><p>There are other fixes that are needed but until these fundmental issuses are addressed the rest are pointless.</p><p><div><p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.</p><p>DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote></div></p><p>Some of this is true but zoning into ToRZ with 1 healer in resonable gear and a tank in PQ gear (solo jewlery, weapons and bp) is not going to cut it in this zone, it is not doable.  Trust me, i was there and its not fun. We managed to kill the first named with combat rezzing and some creative ping ponging of the mob agro.  The tank was so undergeared he could not hold agro from a 15k dps for even 5 seconds, durring the second named we wiped repetedly becasue of this.  The tank himself was not an awful player, he was ok but it was his gear that let him down (along with a lack of AA's and masters is my guess).</p><p>DoV is a highly gear based expansion, you simply can not progress without the gear, orgininaly  the zones were designed to require you to gear up from the previous zones to complete the next zone/teir and the balance was so tight it was still a challenge even then.  Remember trying to get past Fortress Spire when all you group had was PQ/Acent/Pools etc gear? thats right it was tough but it was possible.</p><p>Challenge is fine but no chance of success is not, there should be one and not the other or its simply not fun.  </p>

Raknid
12-28-2011, 10:38 AM
<p><cite>millie wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Elomort wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>The incentives can never make up for the poor group forming unfortunately and where EQ2 DR fails is often witht he scripts and DPS checks put in for optimal grouping. I hate to say it, but as long as you keep throwing sub-optimal groups at dungeons your very own traps are going to make people hate SF and stop running it.</p><p>When you do get to working on it please do the following:</p><p>Cross server. This is a given and must happen.</p><p>You must allow people to choose a role. Tank, healer, DPS, Support. There were too many people in DPS gear who ended up being the tank by default in places they were being one shot.</p><p>For those dungeons like Rime Spires where you need to have a certain group make up (healer and a rezzer in this case) please make sure you don't send in a group that just can't get past the scripts.</p><p>Please group like people together, at worst one either way. Improve the "gearscore" so that you don't end up with a group who is unlikely to pass any DPS checks you have scripted.</p><p>Fix looting so that people can't need on anything that is not in their class and so the need option is greyed out on collections and quest items.</p><p>Make sure that /ignore will never group you with that person.</p><p>Make everyone click accept before zoning in. If you don't get a full group then please leave them outside. Nothing worse than zoning in and seeing 1/2 the group declined.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Stop SLR</span>. It must be killed off, and fast.</p><p>There are more, just can't recall them all right now.</p></blockquote><p>there is only one way of stopping SLR...</p><p>As long as raid gear is better for doing heroic instances than heroic gear people will want it.</p><p>If they want it someone will find some way of selling it.</p><p>Make raid gear only better than heroic gear for doing raid instances.</p><p>Make it the same or worse than heroic gear for doing heroic instances and SLR will stop over night.</p><p>... and befor you start talking about Drunder gear or EoW gear, just think; isnt it the people in raid gear that are happily SLR for that too, because it is so much easier for them to get it in raid gear?</p></blockquote><p>Not that anyone cares about PvP, but those guys/gals already must have two sets of gear if they want to PvP and raid, now you are saying they are going to required to have 3 if they also want to do group instances? Let alone that, anyone on PvE who raids is going to be required to have 2 sets now if they want to do group content also?</p><p>If they do that they need to go one step further and make "group" level gear ineffective against "solo" level content. That way it is fair for everyone and you must have a set of gear for each level of content solo/group/raid...and PvP for the for PvP folks.</p><p>Yeah, that sure sounds like a plan.</p>

Khurghan
12-28-2011, 10:52 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>thats a nice idea, but since you let raiders sell raid loot they now expect EVERYONE to wear it even for the simple dungeons.</p></blockquote><p><cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thats precisely it. Now that SLR has become commonplace, if you <em>don't</em> have the gear you can't do the zones as the group will kick you out without the right gear. Now you have to buy your way in. It's a ludicrous situation.</p><p>You only have to see the clamouring for the gear in channels to see people out there are desperate for it and are willing to pay an insane amount of plat for gear. Several thousand plat in most cases.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe spend less time wasting other peoples time doing dungeons, and spend a bit more time farming plat so you can get some decent gear and not slow the rest of us down in dunegons?</p><p>It's trivial to make 3-4k plat a week easy, there is no excuse for people at level 90 doing dungeons to be in at least full x2/easy mode gear these days.</p>

IvyBlackrose
12-28-2011, 10:57 AM
the main reason ppl quit out is because the elitists only run it to check for rares then bail......put the rares at the END of the dungeon....problem solved BTW I agree SLR IS getting out of control

Gaealiege
12-28-2011, 11:14 AM
<p>I'd run with people in PQ gear, Cold, assuming it's ToFS.  If the DF puts me in anything besides ToFS, no I wouldn't accept that (especially given Thurg armor is just as easy to obtain without ANY effort.)</p><p>As for me being the problem, Lutherin, hop on over to Butcherblock.  I'll gladly outplay you, so you can retire your absurd argument.  Neiloch is on the same server in one of the top 3 guilds worldwide and is saying the same things I am.</p><p>It seems to me that you're simply in here lying.  You used DF to run Wailing Caves, well grats.  Use DoV to run Hall of Storms with your brigand, brigand, monk, fury, necromancer, conjuror group in full awesome PQ and treasured pre-90 gear.  Let me know how that goes.</p>

Banditman
12-28-2011, 11:20 AM
<p>OP:  Yes, DF sucks.  It was destined to fail from the beginning due to being rushed out before it was ready.  It's going to have a ridiculous uphill battle now to gain acceptance because it's reputation has been slammed due to the rushed nature of it's release and subsequent failure.</p><p>What this thread should make everyone realize is that:</p><p>1.  EQ2 needs "Gear Score" or some iteration of it for use in DF.  So much of the discussion in this thread drills in on equipment and the lack of this feature becomes more acute when taken in context with the many levels of itemization across EQ2.  The fact that this feature (Gear Score) was IN DOV BETA AND DROPPED makes it all the more frustrating.</p><p>2.  DF needs to be a great deal smarter.  Sub optimal groups for low level content are probably ok, but when you get Paladin, Wizard, Wizard, Defiler, Defiler, Templar for ToRZ, something is WRONG.</p><p>3.  DF absolutely MUST be cross server.  I've been saying this since DF was announced.  The EQ2 population absolutely is not large enough for DF to reach critical mass any other way.  Unfortunately, with the reputation DF now has, making it cross server now may not work.  Maybe it will.</p><p>Dear Smokejumper,</p><p>You keep telling us that you are going to go back and fix things, yet actions speak louder than words and all we have from you so far is words. In one interview you say "we're going to go back and fix things" and in the next "we're excited about this new feature we're working on."  It's ridiculous.</p><p>There are so many poorly tuned, broken and worthless features in game currently that you could spend a whole year fixing them and still have a huge list of important things in front of you that need attention.  And yet, for some reason, we keep getting more features!</p><p>How bout you guys take up a New Years resolution this year to release no new features until you get the things you have working properly?  That'd be great.</p>

Roast22
12-28-2011, 11:24 AM
<p><cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>thats a nice idea, but since you let raiders sell raid loot they now expect EVERYONE to wear it even for the simple dungeons.</p></blockquote><p><cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thats precisely it. Now that SLR has become commonplace, if you <em>don't</em> have the gear you can't do the zones as the group will kick you out without the right gear. Now you have to buy your way in. It's a ludicrous situation.</p><p>You only have to see the clamouring for the gear in channels to see people out there are desperate for it and are willing to pay an insane amount of plat for gear. Several thousand plat in most cases.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe spend less time wasting other peoples time doing dungeons, and spend a bit more time farming plat so you can get some decent gear and not slow the rest of us down in dunegons?</p><p>It's trivial to make 3-4k plat a week easy, there is no excuse for people at level 90 doing dungeons to be in at least full x2/easy mode gear these days.</p></blockquote><p>I'd call you a troll but sadly there are actually people that think like this.</p><p>Thats a helpful attitude, buy your gear so you can run zones for gear that doesn't upgrade your gear for no challenge or progression? Here's an idea lets just not bother with the heroic game and just buy loot from players who raid and not bother playing at all, sounds fun doesn't it?</p><p>SLR is shameful, it goes aganist the spirit of the game and its lame.  Its cheating, if you buy loot rights you are cheating. If people want to do it whatever, i won't and never have bought or sold loot rights. Oh and just to be clear, I raid I didn't ride some other guild coat tails or guild hop.  I helped build a raid force with similarly geared people and we never sell loot rights as we use the loot to progress our guild members and their alts (alts are useful if your caught short of a class or 2)</p><p>There is no reason to buy loot to run zones that your over geared for, if you have raid gear you don't need shards or loot from them.  How about you stop running heroic zones that you need nothing from and quit wasting your time.</p>

Laenai
12-28-2011, 11:45 AM
<p>I have yet to be in a full group in DF.</p><p>That said, when I queue up for DF, I <strong><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">expect</span></em></strong> I will be the most geared person in the group and that I'll end up tanking the zone on my mystic, topping the parse, and working harder to keep everyone else alive than I would otherwise.</p><p>However, the biggest flaw with DF is the people who queue. I don't mind running DF for dungeons like Pools, Ascent, Spire, etc.</p><p>BUT if you queue up for Zek or Thrones or Drunder and you're wearing a full set of othmir gear or PQ, you should expect to fail and YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.</p><p>People WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER and do the above are simply discourteous to those others in their group, who feel they should be entitled to be able to do things that they shouldn't be doing, and fully expect that 5 other people are going to carry their fail through the zone.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-28-2011, 11:48 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.</p><p>DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote><p>This attitude is what we hope to bolster with the current random item incentive you get each day. This kind of "see if you can overcome the challenges with what's at hand" attitude is what DF is kind of all about. The incentives are reward for those that want to face that kind of game.</p><p>However, it's become obvious that although that works for 1-89, and even in SF, it doesn't work in Velious because of the difficulty of those dungeons. We're discussing potential fixes after the new year. Expect a staged solution so that DF becomes more what you're looking for.</p></blockquote><p>thats a nice idea, but since you let raiders sell raid loot they now expect EVERYONE to wear it even for the simple dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>This is why even cross-server DF will always be fail.  Smoke isn't willing to do what it would take for mere mortals to run zones.  I would LOVE to run zones but I refuse to buy loot rights at the insane prices going out there.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-28-2011, 11:59 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have yet to be in a full group in DF.</p><p>That said, when I queue up for DF, I <strong><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">expect</span></em></strong> I will be the most geared person in the group and that I'll end up tanking the zone on my mystic, topping the parse, and working harder to keep everyone else alive than I would otherwise.</p><p>However, the biggest flaw with DF is the people who queue. I don't mind running DF for dungeons like Pools, Ascent, Spire, etc.</p><p>BUT if you queue up for Zek or Thrones or Drunder and you're wearing a full set of othmir gear or PQ, you should expect to fail and YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.</p><p>People WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER and do the above are simply discourteous to those others in their group, who feel they should be entitled to be able to do things that they shouldn't be doing, and fully expect that 5 other people are going to carry their fail through the zone.</p></blockquote><p>In PQ or othmir you don't have the critmit to queue for those zones and DF won't allow it. </p>

Raffir
12-28-2011, 12:34 PM
<div><p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.</p><p>DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote></div><p><strong><em>Roast wrote</em></strong>:</p><p>Some of this is true but zoning into ToRZ with 1 healer in resonable gear and a tank in PQ gear (solo jewlery, weapons and bp) is not going to cut it in this zone, it is not doable.  Trust me, i was there and its not fun. We managed to kill the first named with combat rezzing and some creative ping ponging of the mob agro.  The tank was so undergeared he could not hold agro from a 15k dps for even 5 seconds, durring the second named we wiped repetedly becasue of this.  The tank himself was not an awful player, he was ok but it was his gear that let him down (along with a lack of AA's and masters is my guess).</p><p>DoV is a highly gear based expansion, you simply can not progress without the gear, orgininaly  the zones were designed to require you to gear up from the previous zones to complete the next zone/teir and the balance was so tight it was still a challenge even then.  Remember trying to get past Fortress Spire when all you group had was PQ/Acent/Pools etc gear? thats right it was tough but it was possible.</p><p>Challenge is fine but no chance of success is not, there should be one and not the other or its simply not fun. </p><p>---------------------------------------------------------</p><p>I agree.  I think the problem lies in that perhaps DF originally assumed that we would all take a look at our options and un-click the instances we were not geared for.  I do it all the time.  I know which instances are not applicable to the whatever toon I'm playing. I disable those queues, then queue up for the instances I'm interested in "and" know that I can contribute successfully to.</p><p>What  DF failed to recognize, I think, is that some people are simply not capable of self regulating..or they simply don't care and want to ride on the coat tails of others to get XP and loot at the expense of the entire group.</p><p>Maybe DF should be relegated to levels 20-80...and let people continue to put together DoV groups via their Guilds and 1-9?</p><p>Or, as has been suggested...implement a minimum gear requirement for advanced instances.</p><p>Raf</p>

Raknid
12-28-2011, 01:03 PM
<p>I think there are some people who are discourteous, but I think a large measure of it is due to the way the game is structured. Soling to 90 then expecting people to understand mechanics and zones well enough to know which ones they can do is asking a little much. The DF needs to be designed so that it brackets the zones any particular player can do, spreading from no problem all the way to tough challenge. Running "tough challenge" dungeons will give players a chance to develop their own feel for what they can do. Throwing them in "destined to fail" gropups/dungeons does absolutelty nothing in regards to moving them along in progression, let alone allowing them to get some manner of enjoyment from their time.</p>

Crillus
12-28-2011, 01:30 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would really hate the idea of  some 'gear score' system coming to EQ2 - it blasts the whole game to the point of just a pointless numbers game of raiding for gear so you can get gear to raid for more gear.</p></blockquote><p>there already is gear score its just not put into a number called 'gear score'. With the velious gear look at two pieces for the same slot. If one has more stamina (and main stat, their both the same usually) the one with more stamina is better than the other, more often than not. there are exceptions of course, usually because some stat is close to capped or severe diminishing returns, so if the 'better' item has that stat it doesn't look as good. But I gaurantee the gear score they were planning on then hid would show the item with higher base stats would have a higher score as well.</p><p>This <strong>IS</strong> a gear based game. Just because you have managed to get by with little to no concern about gear doesn't change that.</p><p>As for the objections to gear checks for DF there is a very easy and currently available solution: don't use it. If you don't like that line I hope you were never one of the people that said or supported the tired line of 'then don't buy it' when it came to AoD objections, since you would then be a hypocrite.</p><p>Gear checks shouldn't be based on tier of equipment though, should be more like a 'stat check', much like Rift.</p></blockquote><p>But from a RP stance - with this being a RP game after all, a lot of that is inconsequential. Personally - my twink Necro now is in pretty much all Legendary/Mastercrafted or better Gear, my higher level guardian is too - but there's one CORE reason I don't like WoW - it's not a RP game, it's a numbers game. I play the broker a lot and can usually seem to find deals and such - gearing on the broker is really pretty simple, TBH anyway.</p><p>If EQ2 becomes a numbers game, I won't be very interested anymore - I want to play a RP Game... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I 'power gamed' in EQLive and in WoW to a degree and am just tired of it. To me it becomes a pointless circle of raiding to get gear so I can get gear to raid for more gear, etc, etc, etc..</p><p>Can't we have two types of Dungeon Finder groups? Perhaps one that's "RP" where people, in any gear can gather for a dungeon - with the understanding that this group isn't as concerned with numbers on gear as much as it is the 'dungeon crawl' fun aspect.</p><p>Then another type of DF group that just wants to Steamroll the zone. I'm not saying either type of player is 'wrong' as some of us play the game for sheer power-gaming and others play the game to be immersed in a RP environment. To me the gear is a means to an end, and I have the most fun in this game when I ignore OOC chatter in 1-9, ignore auction chatter, ignore gear stats and well - just have fun playing.</p><p>That being said, I've only done a single DF group and not a word was mentioned about gear, but we did well in the instance and since we were on the same server - we went and did three more dungeons without the Dungeon Finder - making it quite fun actually. I kinda like the idea of it being on the same server as it creates possibilities. I ran good groups with others in WoW too - but you couldn't ever group with them again intentionally, no matter how good the group went.</p><p>Just saying it would be nice if we could flag a couple options in the Dungeon Finder like:</p><p><strong>*Same server only</strong></p><p><strong>*Power Dungeon Style or RP Dungeon Style</strong></p><p>Could just be flags - that's all - so the group knows what to expect coming into it.</p><p>Sometimes I wish they'd just offer gear for sale via SC - that way the people who want the quick gear-up can just buy it..</p>

Banditman
12-28-2011, 02:16 PM
<p>NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.</p><p>FFS.</p><p>RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?</p><p>If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.</p><p>What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.</p>

deadcrickets2
12-28-2011, 02:27 PM
<p>What I'd like to see chnage wise to Dungeon Finder:</p><p>* Cross server</p><p>* Gear checks for DoV dungeons</p><p>* A button to return where you came from</p><p>* Quests related to the dungeon available in the dungeon (Seriously, who is going to run to Firmroot to pick up the Guk dungeon quests?)</p><p>* A dungeon completion bonus</p><p>* Dungeon timer reset on dungeon completion (no more of this "left the dungeon too soon" message when you are done)</p><p>* Removal of the 15 minute lockout</p><p>* Increase the amount of time allowed to accept going into a dungeon (120 seconds maybe?)</p><p>* Allow you to set your role</p><p>* Bug fix the problem with mercs preventing you from reinforcing a group that isn't full</p><p>* Bug fix the issue where you can't reinforce as it considers you not part of the dungeon group despite being leader of said group</p><p>* Bug fix it sending you to completed dungeons</p><p>* Bug fix it not pulling an already made group into a dungeon</p><p>* Bug fix it sometimes not finding a dungeon until you unqueue and requeue and suddenly you instantly have a freaking dungeon</p><p>* Alter the experience per mob on zones such as Najena's as it's so low most people give up on it</p><p>* Bug fix it offering Shard of Love nearly every time.  Seriously, it's not random when it pops up 19 out of 20 times.</p><p>* Alter the difficulty of zones such as SoS to be a real dungeon again</p><p>* Bug fix the random dropping of group when you have a merc already summoned and dungeon finder pulls you in.</p><p>* Mark some dungeons as hard and setup dungeon finder to increase the bonus further for doing the dungeon.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-28-2011, 02:31 PM
<p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.</p><p>DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote><p>This attitude is what we hope to bolster with the current random item incentive you get each day. This kind of "see if you can overcome the challenges with what's at hand" attitude is what DF is kind of all about. The incentives are reward for those that want to face that kind of game.</p><p>However, it's become obvious that although that works for 1-89, and even in SF, it doesn't work in Velious because of the difficulty of those dungeons. We're discussing potential fixes after the new year. Expect a staged solution so that DF becomes more what you're looking for.</p></blockquote><p>You are about 5 expansions and a cash shop late on that one Smoky.</p>

Leinna
12-28-2011, 02:53 PM
<p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>New incentives only work if you actually get to play...I queue everytime I log in on my ranger (from level 40-77) and I have NEVER once got an invite.  Sometimes I am in the queue for 4 hours+.</p>

Valentina
12-28-2011, 03:09 PM
I've posted about this before, but.. the problem with Velious dungeons is the scripting that severely punishes sub-optimal groups unless those groups contain over-geared characters (which often defeats the point of running the dungeon in the first place). Nobody should have to have gear better than what drops in a zone to be able to run that zone, but that's pretty much what is required if you have a less than maximum sized group, or a group of six random toons tossed together (a la dungeon finder). I've had two successful dungeon finder groups since it launched. In both cases, we were successful because one or two of the people in the group were actually raiders, whose gear dwarfed everyone else, and who were generous enough to run the dungeons even though they did not need anything from them. That's a pretty darn rare occurrence, and is not something dungeon finder should have to rely on. Since then, my partner and I have been unable to find groups via DF, and have tried to progress through instances on our own, but two appropriately geared players (even with mercs) have very little chance of advancing through the Velious instances, due to the scripting that makes boss encounters infinitely harder than every other mob in the zone. We're not going to SLR just so we can run a zone that, at that point, will no longer provide us with any actual reward. So we're taking some time off and playing a different game that actually lets us advance as a small group.

Leophage
12-28-2011, 03:10 PM
<p>Most of the groups I've been getting while leveling alts have been through Dungeon Finder.  The tool itself works well enough; the bad experiences I've had in DF groups are mostly because of the players, not the DF tool.DF taught me that there are a lot of people who don't know how to play EQ2 in general or their class specifically.  For example, I've had wardens, inquisitors and mystics all tell a DF group "I'm not a healer".  I've had SKs and berserkers tell the group that they weren't tanks.  Not that they "the player" didn't heal or tank; they said their CLASS wasn't a healing or tanking class.Are they stupid?  Nope, just ignorant...like the people who /sit between pulls because they think it regens power faster.  Or who spell rogue as "rouge" and will argue you four ways from Sunday that their spelling is correct.Dungeon Finder has made me aware of the huge segment of the player population who don't have a clue.  All you can do if you want to level up and are repelled by the non-stop drama of belonging to a guild is to grit your teeth, queue up for DF and mix a strong drink.If you are one of the ignorant ones, you don't know it.  But if people vote to kick you out of a group, that's your first clue.</p>

Crillus
12-28-2011, 03:22 PM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.</p><p>FFS.</p><p>RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?</p><p>If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.</p><p>What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.</p></blockquote><p>No, I'm just saying the whole game doesn't have to be about having gear to raid/group to get more gear. Doesn't that seem pointless to some of you too? I'm not saying it's not a legit way to play - to each their own, but some of us DO see the 'carrot on a stick' running for gear as not important so much.</p><p>And what would it matter if there are more options? Not everyone likes to play the same way.</p><p>I'm a decent tank, i can hold agro, I pay attention to the situation and the group, I keep my gear up to par, but it doesn't mean I want some arbitraty number system gutting the game either - like WoW. And even if I'm in 100% fabled gear doesn't mean i care if the healer is...</p><p>WoW isn't about the 'game' or fun to many people, it's about numbers.</p><p>If you don't equal "X", then you don't go. That's not the style many of us care to play, that's all. Options won't hurt.</p>

bks6721
12-28-2011, 03:24 PM
<p><cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>thats a nice idea, but since you let raiders sell raid loot they now expect EVERYONE to wear it even for the simple dungeons.</p></blockquote><p><cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thats precisely it. Now that SLR has become commonplace, if you <em>don't</em> have the gear you can't do the zones as the group will kick you out without the right gear. Now you have to buy your way in. It's a ludicrous situation.</p><p>You only have to see the clamouring for the gear in channels to see people out there are desperate for it and are willing to pay an insane amount of plat for gear. Several thousand plat in most cases.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe spend less time wasting other peoples time doing dungeons, and spend a bit more time farming plat so you can get some decent gear and not slow the rest of us down in dunegons?</p><p>It's trivial to make 3-4k plat a week easy, there is no excuse for people at level 90 doing dungeons to be in at least full x2/easy mode gear these days.</p></blockquote><p>I won't buy gear.  I could afford a lot of it but that is not how the game should be played in my opinion.</p><p>If you think grouping is a waste of time then stop playing.</p><p>YOU are what is wrong with dungeon finder.</p><p>People like you who demand players like me have x2 gear for Ascent?   Get a life.</p>

Onorem
12-28-2011, 03:26 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.</p><p>FFS.</p><p>RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?</p><p>If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.</p><p>What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.</p></blockquote><p>No, I'm just saying the whole game doesn't have to be about having gear to raid/group to get more gear. Doesn't that seem pointless to some of you too? I'm not saying it's not a legit way to play - to each their own, but some of us DO see the 'carrot on a stick' running for gear as not important so much.</p><p>And what would it matter if there are more options? Not everyone likes to play the same way.</p></blockquote><p>I don't see anyone saying that it has to be about gear for gear (OK...I do see them, but I choose to ignore them.) I want more carrot myself. Options are good. Dungeon finder (currently) is horrible.</p>

Crillus
12-28-2011, 03:32 PM
<p><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.</p><p>FFS.</p><p>RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?</p><p>If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.</p><p>What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.</p></blockquote><p>No, I'm just saying the whole game doesn't have to be about having gear to raid/group to get more gear. Doesn't that seem pointless to some of you too? I'm not saying it's not a legit way to play - to each their own, but some of us DO see the 'carrot on a stick' running for gear as not important so much.</p><p>And what would it matter if there are more options? Not everyone likes to play the same way.</p></blockquote><p>I don't see anyone saying that it has to be about gear for gear (OK...I do see them, but I choose to ignore them.) I want more carrot myself. Options are good. Dungeon finder (currently) is horrible.</p></blockquote><p>That's all I'm saying - it doesn't have to be 'RP' per se - I was just trying to think of an applicable term I suppose. I'm not a hard core RPer either.</p><p>But to that - no matter how well I'm decked out; I'd be happy to group with 5 others who are in horrid gear. I mean, you don't start with legendary gear, some people don't want to buy it, etc..</p><p>Just saiyng if the DF ends up being all "well you aren't geared right for .... " - I won't use it anyway, and if I'm geared well enough - why would I even need to, I'd likely be grouping/raiding with a guild anyway...</p>

bks6721
12-28-2011, 03:34 PM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.</p><p>FFS.</p><p>RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?</p><p>If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.</p><p>What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.</p></blockquote><p>Dungeon find IS for noobs.  It does no good to anyone for raiders to queue up and expect everyone else using dungeon finder to be equally geared.</p>

Raffir
12-28-2011, 03:38 PM
<p>DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed.  DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.</p><p>Raf</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-28-2011, 04:30 PM
<p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed.  DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote><p>Only eliteist, min/maxer, raiders think it is fine in DoV.  Mere mortals that are not going through zones with more powerful gear than the zone drops to SLR do not share your opinion.</p>

Raknid
12-28-2011, 04:45 PM
<p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed.  DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote><p>Only eliteist, min/maxer, raiders think it is fine in DoV.  Mere mortals that are not going through zones with more powerful gear than the zone drops to SLR do not share your opinion.</p></blockquote><p>Can you point to someone saying the dungeon finder is fine for DoV dungeons? I will take links, not even quotes.</p>

Banditman
12-28-2011, 04:54 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dungeon find IS for noobs.  It does no good to anyone for raiders to queue up and expect everyone else using dungeon finder to be equally geared.</p></blockquote><p>I completely disagree.  DF should be effective for anyone in gear appropriate for a zone.  Where that gear came from is irrelevant.</p><p>Anyone who uses DF should expect that players who choose to queue up for a zone have gear that will allow them to be effective in said zone.  There needs to be a sanity check, if for no other reason than some players simply may not KNOW what sort of gear is required for a given zone.  (And NO!  Crit Mit is not the ONLY consideration here.)  There are other reasons . . . they may not care, they may have a poor estimation of their own gear, etc.  Whatever.</p><p>DF needs to work for everyone.  In order to do that it absolutely needs to make gear an important part of equation.  Some iteration of Gear Score does nothing more than put a number to the player.  There isn't any "I think I can" . . . "Maybe it will work".  It's a number.  Pass or fail.  If ($Fail){"You are not well enough equipped for this dungeon"}</p><p>Now, if progression is frakked, that's (another) problem SOE will need to fix, but frankly, I don't think that's the case here.  I've run Tower of Tactics now many times with players in RyGorr gear and they did just fine.  Heroic progression seems to be fairly solid, if a bit cumbersome.  PQ + Velks gets you to Kael.  Kael gets you to Drunder.  It's not rocket science.  Really.</p>

Raffir
12-28-2011, 05:17 PM
<p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed.  DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.</p><p>Raf</p></blockquote><p>Only eliteist, min/maxer, raiders think it is fine in DoV.  Mere mortals that are not going through zones with more powerful gear than the zone drops to SLR do not share your opinion.</p></blockquote><p>Do you even read what other people post?</p>

Neiloch
12-28-2011, 07:06 PM
<p>There is a heroic progression in DoV and it works fine without ever buying loot rights. You don't need to have better gear than what the zone drops. If your problem is the players, people in DF will be more forgiving than someone shouting LFG in channels thus more accomadating for lower geared players, not less. Once they put some sort of gear or stat requirement on DF it will force players to look at their skill, not gear, as the problem if they are failing.</p><p>A DF with a gear check putting a group together should say: "You are all qualified to clear this zone, so if you fail it is because 1 or more of you suck at the game" Not literally say it of course, but that's the message. that's what I loved about Rift DF. If a group was put together in DF any excuse blaming gear was already void before you even start. It would also make anyone who drops out of a group because they think the group is undergeared look like a fool and poor player.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-28-2011, 07:13 PM
<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raffir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed. <span style="color: #ffff00;"> DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.</span></p><p>Raf</p></blockquote><p>Only eliteist, min/maxer, raiders think <span style="color: #ffff00;">it</span> is fine in DoV.  Mere mortals that are not going through zones with more powerful gear than the zone drops to SLR do not share your opinion.</p></blockquote><p>Can you point to someone saying the dungeon finder is fine for DoV dungeons? I will take links, not even quotes.</p></blockquote><p>"it" is that forming groups is fine without DF in DoV zones.  NOT that DF is fine in DoV.  rule of antecedents should of made that clear, but sorry if it didn't.</p>

millie
12-28-2011, 07:59 PM
<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>millie wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Elomort wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>The incentives can never make up for the poor group forming unfortunately and where EQ2 DR fails is often witht he scripts and DPS checks put in for optimal grouping. I hate to say it, but as long as you keep throwing sub-optimal groups at dungeons your very own traps are going to make people hate SF and stop running it.</p><p>When you do get to working on it please do the following:</p><p>Cross server. This is a given and must happen.</p><p>You must allow people to choose a role. Tank, healer, DPS, Support. There were too many people in DPS gear who ended up being the tank by default in places they were being one shot.</p><p>For those dungeons like Rime Spires where you need to have a certain group make up (healer and a rezzer in this case) please make sure you don't send in a group that just can't get past the scripts.</p><p>Please group like people together, at worst one either way. Improve the "gearscore" so that you don't end up with a group who is unlikely to pass any DPS checks you have scripted.</p><p>Fix looting so that people can't need on anything that is not in their class and so the need option is greyed out on collections and quest items.</p><p>Make sure that /ignore will never group you with that person.</p><p>Make everyone click accept before zoning in. If you don't get a full group then please leave them outside. Nothing worse than zoning in and seeing 1/2 the group declined.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Stop SLR</span>. It must be killed off, and fast.</p><p>There are more, just can't recall them all right now.</p></blockquote><p>there is only one way of stopping SLR...</p><p>As long as raid gear is better for doing heroic instances than heroic gear people will want it.</p><p>If they want it someone will find some way of selling it.</p><p>Make raid gear only better than heroic gear for doing raid instances.</p><p>Make it the same or worse than heroic gear for doing heroic instances and SLR will stop over night.</p><p>... and befor you start talking about Drunder gear or EoW gear, just think; isnt it the people in raid gear that are happily SLR for that too, because it is so much easier for them to get it in raid gear?</p></blockquote><p>Not that anyone cares about PvP, but those guys/gals already must have two sets of gear if they want to PvP and raid, now you are saying they are going to required to have 3 if they also want to do group instances? Let alone that, anyone on PvE who raids is going to be required to have 2 sets now if they want to do group content also?</p><p>If they do that they need to go one step further and make "group" level gear ineffective against "solo" level content. That way it is fair for everyone and you must have a set of gear for each level of content solo/group/raid...and PvP for the for PvP folks.</p><p>Yeah, that sure sounds like a plan.</p></blockquote><p></shrug> I said "the <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>same </strong></em></span>or worse" for heroic content, and by heroic content I meant non-epic.  So your raid gear would work everywhere just not better than heroic gear for heroic content, one set of gear not 2 or 3.</p><p>Oh and btw the same should be true for PvP gear, best in breed for PvP, not better than heroic for PvE, still two sets not three (raid and non-raid[+PvP]).</p>

Amanathia
12-29-2011, 02:03 AM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dungeon find IS for noobs.  It does no good to anyone for raiders to queue up and expect everyone else using dungeon finder to be equally geared.</p></blockquote><p>I completely disagree.  DF should be effective for anyone in gear appropriate for a zone.  Where that gear came from is irrelevant.</p><p>Anyone who uses DF should expect that players who choose to queue up for a zone have gear that will allow them to be effective in said zone.  There needs to be a sanity check, if for no other reason than some players simply may not KNOW what sort of gear is required for a given zone.  (And NO!  Crit Mit is not the ONLY consideration here.)  There are other reasons . . . they may not care, they may have a poor estimation of their own gear, etc.  Whatever.</p><p>DF needs to work for everyone.  In order to do that it absolutely needs to make gear an important part of equation.  Some iteration of Gear Score does nothing more than put a number to the player.  There isn't any "I think I can" . . . "Maybe it will work".  It's a number.  Pass or fail.  If ($Fail){"You are not well enough equipped for this dungeon"}</p><p>Now, if progression is frakked, that's (another) problem SOE will need to fix, but frankly, I don't think that's the case here.  I've run Tower of Tactics now many times with players in RyGorr gear and they did just fine.  Heroic progression seems to be fairly solid, if a bit cumbersome.  PQ + Velks gets you to Kael.  Kael gets you to Drunder.  It's not rocket science.  Really.</p></blockquote><p>Yep, and gotta lol at the at the stuff complaining that SLR is the problem...</p><p>Basically there needs to be a sanity check...IE, PQ and quest gear?  Can queue up for rime and tofs.  Ry'gorr can queue up for that plus kael.  Sanity check for Ry'gorr plus some kael jewelry and crit mit?  Can queue up for drunder heroic and for the tofs x2 (should be in df honestly).  Drunder heroic stuff?  Can queue up for EOW.</p><p>The whole "but people demand raid gear!" is a massive strawman arguement that has no bearing whatsoever on reality...Reality is more like:  queue up for torz?  Might get a tank with 25k hp.  Not goin anywher.  </p>

Amanathia
12-29-2011, 02:05 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There is a heroic progression in DoV and it works fine without ever buying loot rights. You don't need to have better gear than what the zone drops. If your problem is the players, people in DF will be more forgiving than someone shouting LFG in channels thus more accomadating for lower geared players, not less. Once they put some sort of gear or stat requirement on DF it will force players to look at their skill, not gear, as the problem if they are failing.</p><p>A DF with a gear check putting a group together should say: "You are all qualified to clear this zone, so if you fail it is because 1 or more of you suck at the game" Not literally say it of course, but that's the message. that's what I loved about Rift DF. If a group was put together in DF any excuse blaming gear was already void before you even start. It would also make anyone who drops out of a group because they think the group is undergeared look like a fool and poor player.</p></blockquote><p>This.</p>

Roast22
12-29-2011, 02:47 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.</p><p>FFS.</p><p>RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?</p><p>If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.</p><p>What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.</p></blockquote><p>No, I'm just saying the whole game doesn't have to be about having gear to raid/group to get more gear. Doesn't that seem pointless to some of you too? I'm not saying it's not a legit way to play - to each their own, but some of us DO see the 'carrot on a stick' running for gear as not important so much.</p><p>And what would it matter if there are more options? Not everyone likes to play the same way.</p><p>I'm a decent tank, i can hold agro, I pay attention to the situation and the group, I keep my gear up to par, but it doesn't mean I want some arbitraty number system gutting the game either - like WoW. And even if I'm in 100% fabled gear doesn't mean i care if the healer is...</p><p>WoW isn't about the 'game' or fun to many people, it's about numbers.</p><p>If you don't equal "X", then you don't go. That's not the style many of us care to play, that's all. Options won't hurt.</p></blockquote><p>your already to late to request this, CM and CC are already part of DoV (other stats are also important too but these are the must haves) and are REQUIRED to progress, they have removed some of the CM requirements but CC is still in.  EQ2 at cap in heroic + is already a numbers game, like it or not.  You want to know if someone is able to run ToRZ most people will ask what their crit chance is at the very least, you don't have to call it gearscore if you don't want to but its the same thing in a different package.</p>

rollando
12-29-2011, 09:59 AM
<p>Imo, there are 2 things to fix :</p><p>1) The Sentinel's Fate dungeon gear is not attractive. Make the drops in level 90 SF dungeons on par with what public quests give.</p><p>2) To make a group based progression work, you need people to group with. That's easy at the start of a new expansion, but not later : many toons are already geared up, and, with heirloom items everywhere, alts skip the progression. So :</p><p>     a) make the DF cross-server, to expand the pool of players you can group with</p><p>     b) make it so that every toon has to go through some of the progression, even with a full bank of heirloom raid drops to equip from </p>

Banditman
12-29-2011, 10:36 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Imo, there are 2 things to fix :</p><p>1) The Sentinel's Fate dungeon gear is not attractive. Make the drops in level 90 SF dungeons on par with what public quests give.</p></blockquote><p>This is a decent idea.</p>

Munty
12-30-2011, 12:47 AM
<p>I'm sure these have been brought up before but I'm going to reiterate them, because these two issues are completely destroying the usefulness of this tool for me.</p><p>First, do not zone anyone in until everyone has said they are ready and willing to zone in.  I am absolutely sick of getting locked out of the DF for 15 mins because 3/5 decided they don't want to run that zone.  I know the lockout was supposed to deter those people, but it's punishing EVERYONE for it.  Reinforcing doesn't seem to do anything..if that worked, then great.  At least in WoW (and I hate to draw parallels, but there you go) you were put to the top of the queue so you'd get someone pretty darned quick if someone did drop.</p><p>Second, lockouts: really?  You can't have lockouts with a dungeon finder.  That will only mean less and less people will be available to run that zone later in the day.  Oh hey guildie, want to run ISK?  Oh, you're locked...nevermind then, I'll pug it.  Oh but wait I can't because the wait time is 3 hours but I have to go to bed in 2.  Lockouts are incompatible with a successful dungeon finder.  </p><p>I'm trying to like this feature, but it's not really working out.  Every time I use it something goes wrong.  I either get zoned into a complete fail group, one that has no chance of clearing the zone, or worse still I'm zoned in alone or with one other person that quickly leaves, giving me a 15 minute lockout.  I've had maybe 3 awesome groups in the whole time I've used it.  The good groups are good, really frickin' good, but the bad ones, oh boy are they something else.  And I resent getting locked out because of it.</p>

Landiin
12-30-2011, 01:37 AM
<p>The seconded they stop SLR is the seconded they lose a lot of people. No I am not talking about raiders I am talking about the majority of the population that buys the loot b/c there isn't enough good guilds to go around. Also it has been happening for to long and the majority of the population want it even need it, for them to stop it.</p><p>Nulling out raid gear in heroic zone will pretty much just peev everyone off. Well every one but the people that think they should have every thing handed to them including Freeps.</p><p>But on topic, the DF works and sometimes it don't. It is a good idea and I am sure they'll get it working to most likeing as time permits. </p><p>Oh yea, wow they let sucks in the tittle but sincer so many lesser words...</p>

Bauglir
12-30-2011, 02:21 AM
<p>Want to save this game smokejumper?</p><p>1.  Make dungeonfinder cross server.</p><p>2.  Allow more then 1 merc in a solo group.</p><p>3.  Make AA exp eaisier to grind.</p><p>4.  Stop people from selling raid gear.</p><p>Done.  This will encourage new guilds to form up.  This will allow those of us unable to find a decent guild the chance to progress.</p><p>There are other alternatives to this game now.. one just opened..</p>

millie
12-30-2011, 02:39 AM
<p><cite>Bauglir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Want to save this game smokejumper?</p><p>1.  Make dungeonfinder cross server.</p><p>2.  Allow more then 1 merc in a solo group.</p><p>3.  Make AA exp eaisier to grind.</p><p>4.  Stop people from selling raid gear.</p><p>Done.  This will encourage new guilds to form up.  This will allow those of us unable to find a decent guild the chance to progress.</p><p>There are other alternatives to this game now.. one just opened..</p></blockquote><p>cross server or cross dressing this tool is not the way to improve grouping.  If cross-server you may never see those toons again.  Hardly a way to encourage contacts and grouping.</p><p>AA is very easy to grind it requires no special skills and needs no changing.</p><p>Mercs: I could care less never used one probably never will never mind needing two or more in a group.</p><p>SLR?  Well I have posted my solution before: Make raid gear no better than the best heroic gear for doing heroic content.</p><p>Other Alternatives: well yes but I know people who left to play that game and are already back in less than 10 days. IMHO its another RIFT, it will have an audience but unlikely to attract many EQ players in the long term.</p>

Gladiolus
12-30-2011, 05:34 AM
<p><cite>Bauglir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>1.  Make dungeonfinder cross server.</p><p>2.  Allow more then 1 merc in a solo group.</p><p>3.  Make AA exp eaisier to grind.</p><p>4.  Stop people from selling raid gear.</p></blockquote><p>1. I don't see the need for a dungeonfinder (there are so many other things to do that if there's no adventure group handy it doesn't bother me) but if you're going to have one, it can't really serve a purpose unless it's not only cross-server but cross-region, as the battlegrounds were (are? I don't know if they still exist).</p><p>2. If SOE did 1 above then the demand for this would probably be less. I've not tried the mercenaries as they just look so bad compared to the Guild Wars ones.</p><p>3. I have more points than sensible things on which to spend them but perhaps it's a class thing so I shan't comment.</p><p>4. Why would you need to stop the economy? I get sick and tired of going to the same place time and again without getting the drops I need. I'd prefer if they took off the restrictions and made the raid gear fully tradable.</p>

rollando
12-30-2011, 09:44 AM
<p>Stopping people from selling raid gear isn't the best option.</p><p>I'd rather see an achievement based tier system : </p><p>-to wear gear from an easy DoV group instance, you need to have completed a public quest or killed a named from an easy DoV instance</p><p>-to wear gear from a medium DoV instance, you need to have completed an easy one, or have killed a named in a medium one</p><p>-to wear hard mode instance gear or easy mode raid gear, you need to have killed a named in an easy mode raid instance, or killed a named in a hard DoV group instance</p><p>-to wear hard mode gear, you need to have killed a hard mode raid mob.</p>

Mohee
12-30-2011, 09:49 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stopping people from selling raid gear isn't the best option.</p><p>I'd rather see an achievement based tier system : </p><p>-to wear gear from an easy DoV group instance, you need to have completed a public quest or killed a named from an easy DoV instance</p><p>-to wear gear from a medium DoV instance, you need to have completed an easy one, or have killed a named in a medium one</p><p>-to wear hard mode instance gear or easy mode raid gear, you need to have killed a named in an easy mode raid instance, or killed a named in a hard DoV group instance</p><p>-to wear hard mode gear, you need to have killed a hard mode raid mob.</p></blockquote><p>Hey, I actually like this idea more than any other I've heard! ^^</p>

Dasein
12-30-2011, 10:47 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stopping people from selling raid gear isn't the best option.</p><p>I'd rather see an achievement based tier system : </p><p>-to wear gear from an easy DoV group instance, you need to have completed a public quest or killed a named from an easy DoV instance</p><p>-to wear gear from a medium DoV instance, you need to have completed an easy one, or have killed a named in a medium one</p><p>-to wear hard mode instance gear or easy mode raid gear, you need to have killed a named in an easy mode raid instance, or killed a named in a hard DoV group instance</p><p>-to wear hard mode gear, you need to have killed a hard mode raid mob.</p></blockquote><p>So in addition to selling loot rights, guilds would sell raid spots to get the kill credit.</p>

Wurm
12-30-2011, 11:59 AM
<p><cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's trivial to make 3-4k plat a week easy, there is no excuse for people at level 90 doing dungeons to be in at least full x2/easy mode gear these days.</p></blockquote><p>Whatever you are smoking I want some.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-30-2011, 12:21 PM
<p><cite>Bauglir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Want to save this game smokejumper?</p><p> 1.  Make dungeonfinder cross server.</p><p>2.  Allow more then 1 merc in a solo group.</p><p>3.  Make AA exp eaisier to grind.</p><p>4.  Stop people from selling raid gear.</p><p> Done.  This will encourage new guilds to form up.  This will allow those of us unable to find a decent guild the chance to progress.</p><p> There are other alternatives to this game now.. one just opened.. </p></blockquote><p>1. This would help in some ways, but without server community the worst greed/avarice of anonimity would overpower anything good since most people have soured on it completely at this point.  This is why you dont release unfinished product.</p><p>2. i would vote for that, or just move to Skyrim</p><p>3. AA NEEDS to be easier to get, there are definately some heck levels in there, progression needs to be smoothed out a lot and lower levels need to be easier to attain.  locking at lower levels should NOT given you a benefit as it does now.</p><p>4. It's far too late on SLR removing it now would be like them leaving some people with the overpowered mercs (wiz/lock)  the people who got them and are enjoying the overpowered versions just get further ahead.  So the moral of the story with $OE is the same it has always been.  Exploit early, exploit often.</p>

bks6721
12-30-2011, 12:52 PM
<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dungeon find IS for noobs.  It does no good to anyone for raiders to queue up and expect everyone else using dungeon finder to be equally geared.</p></blockquote><p>I completely disagree.  DF should be effective for anyone in gear appropriate for a zone.  Where that gear came from is irrelevant.</p><p>Anyone who uses DF should expect that players who choose to queue up for a zone have gear that will allow them to be effective in said zone.  There needs to be a sanity check, if for no other reason than some players simply may not KNOW what sort of gear is required for a given zone.  (And NO!  Crit Mit is not the ONLY consideration here.)  There are other reasons . . . they may not care, they may have a poor estimation of their own gear, etc.  Whatever.</p><p>DF needs to work for everyone.  In order to do that it absolutely needs to make gear an important part of equation.  Some iteration of Gear Score does nothing more than put a number to the player.  There isn't any "I think I can" . . . "Maybe it will work".  It's a number.  Pass or fail.  If ($Fail){"You are not well enough equipped for this dungeon"}</p><p>Now, if progression is frakked, that's (another) problem SOE will need to fix, but frankly, I don't think that's the case here.  I've run Tower of Tactics now many times with players in RyGorr gear and they did just fine.  Heroic progression seems to be fairly solid, if a bit cumbersome.  PQ + Velks gets you to Kael.  Kael gets you to Drunder.  It's not rocket science.  Really.</p></blockquote><p>technically I agree, but we both know that if you show up to Spires in PQ gear, which IS good enough, you'll get hassled for not having better gear.</p><p>People that want to run Pools in 6 minutes shouldn't be using DF.</p>

bks6721
12-30-2011, 01:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stopping people from selling raid gear isn't the best option.</p><p>I'd rather see an achievement based tier system : </p><p>-to wear gear from an easy DoV group instance, you need to have completed a public quest or killed a named from an easy DoV instance</p><p>-to wear gear from a medium DoV instance, you need to have completed an easy one, or have killed a named in a medium one</p><p>-to wear hard mode instance gear or easy mode raid gear, you need to have killed a named in an easy mode raid instance, or killed a named in a hard DoV group instance</p><p>-to wear hard mode gear, you need to have killed a hard mode raid mob.</p></blockquote><p>selling 2 open spots 1500p  PST</p><p>won't fix anything</p>

CoLD MeTaL
12-30-2011, 01:40 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stopping people from selling raid gear isn't the best option.</p><p>I'd rather see an achievement based tier system : </p><p>-to wear gear from an easy DoV group instance, you need to have completed a public quest or killed a named from an easy DoV instance</p><p>-to wear gear from a medium DoV instance, you need to have completed an easy one, or have killed a named in a medium one</p><p>-to wear hard mode instance gear or easy mode raid gear, you need to have killed a named in an easy mode raid instance, or killed a named in a hard DoV group instance</p><p>-to wear hard mode gear, you need to have killed a hard mode raid mob.</p></blockquote><p>selling 2 open spots 1500p  PST</p><p>won't fix anything</p></blockquote><p>I am actually ok with that as a replacement.  i don't think it would last long.</p>

Roast22
12-31-2011, 07:40 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>technically I agree, but we both know that if you show up to Spires in PQ gear, which IS good enough, you'll get hassled for not having better gear.</p><p>People that want to run Pools in 6 minutes shouldn't be using DF.</p></blockquote><p>Only its not, people go and get PQ gear, adorn if your lucky and assume they are ready to jump into Fortress Spire.  Many don't have the crit chance, AA's, masters (or even experts) don't have better than solo jewlery and weapons.  In short there toon is not well rounded at all.</p><p>To do fortress spire in a progression group (ie no players that are over geared for the zone) you need to have farmed much of the jewlery and weapons from the previous zones along with PQ gear to do it and also have at the very least your yellow armor, weapons and jewelery adorns slotted to be useful.  You don't need all of that, but a good amount for sure.  This is where people fail, they try to skip content to get to the nice items so they come in under geared and expect to be carried, only so did the other 5 people in the group.</p>

Khurghan
12-31-2011, 09:59 AM
<p>How not to turn up to a dungeon in PQ gear this x-mas in 5 mins or less for almost no cost -</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Step 1:</span></p><p>Buy the following from the broker:</p><p>a "Scintillating Emerald Gem" from broker (normally about 20-25gp on most servers)</p><p>18 Bamboo shoots from boker</p><p>12 Titanium Ore</p><p>12 Quicksilver Cluster</p><p>5 Mottled Pelt</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Step 2:</span></p><p>You will need to buy the following tradeskills fuels -</p><p>Plate/Chain wearers:</p><p>145 Ethereal Coal</p><p>Leather cloth wearers:</p><p>30 Ethereal Filament</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Step 3:</span></p><p>Copy/paste this macro - "/tc Level_1-9 Looking for a crafter to make Ry'gor gloves + thurg pants,forearms,boots,helm,shoulders PST"</p><p>Get stuff made + tip crafter(s)</p><p><em>N.B.</em></p><p><em>This doesn't include a BP but you can get a half decent one from a few hours questing.</em></p><p>There really is no excuse for turning up to a dungeon in PQ gear it reads "I can't be bothered to spend 5 minutes of my time doing the above - please carry me so I can roll need on everything that drops even if I can't use it"</p>

Khurghan
12-31-2011, 10:02 AM
<p><cite>Roast22 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Only its not, people go and get PQ gear, adorn if your lucky and assume they are ready to jump into Fortress Spire.  Many don't have the crit chance, AA's, masters (or even experts) don't have better than solo jewlery and weapons.  In short there toon is not well rounded at all.</p><p>To do fortress spire in a progression group (ie no players that are over geared for the zone) you need to have farmed much of the jewlery and weapons from the previous zones along with PQ gear to do it and also have at the very least your yellow armor, weapons and jewelery adorns slotted to be useful.  You don't need all of that, but a good amount for sure.  This is where people fail, they try to skip content to get to the nice items so they come in under geared and expect to be carried, only so did the other 5 people in the group.</p></blockquote><p>It's almost ironic that it is crit chance which is gating most players.</p>

Gaealiege
12-31-2011, 11:14 AM
<p>Pauly, I don't know which Spire of Rage you've been in, but PQ gear isn't going to cut it in there.</p><p>If you mean Fortress Spire, then again, I'd swing towards no.  I'd love to see you run that zone with a PQ geared tank.  FRAPs the ettin+worm fight for me.</p>

Wurm
12-31-2011, 11:54 AM
<p>The ettin+worm fight is doable with a PQed geared tank... if you have two healers and don't mind dying. Fun? Thats something else entirely.</p>

Tayne
01-01-2012, 03:12 PM
<p>My first and last experience with dungeon finder last night showed me a trick I didn't think was possible.</p><p>Queued up. Zoned in within a matter of seconds, only to find myself outside the group -- the group comprised of three of the same guild, and what they were doing is letting folks join them in dungeon finder, booting them from group until they zoned in and could inspect their gear, etc .. then reinviting. I was reinvited but another player they pulled this same trick on was not. I left that group and went and made a new one with the other player who was booted and not reinvited and we had a grand time, picking up others in 1-9. The worst part was the player that was not reinvited after being booted by the initial group was penalized time-wise for DF. Doesn't seem fair.</p><p>I would suggest this ability to boot folks out of a DF group be tweaked somewhat. Players should be able to boot out a poorly behaving or overtly greedy (needing on everything) player, but how do you resolve this kind of behaviour?</p><p>Needless to say, I won't be going back.</p>

Minzi
01-01-2012, 05:42 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pauly, I don't know which Spire of Rage you've been in, but PQ gear isn't going to cut it in there.</p><p>If you mean Fortress Spire, then again, I'd swing towards no.  I'd love to see you run that zone with a PQ geared tank.  FRAPs the ettin+worm fight for me.</p></blockquote><p>Ran Fortress Spire as an SK in PQ gear with about 200 AAs, I recall getting the BP and being glad that I could equip it and still keep the set bonus as it only requires 6 pieces.  My non-visible pieces were all either velious faction merchant purchases or drops from tofs/ascent.</p><p>By the time we got to the boss with the three worms, the rest of the group had figured out, quite correctly, that I had no clue what I was doing, so they told me to not worry about anything but wedging myself into a corner and trying to keep aggro.</p><p>This was before the changes removing the crit mit requirement from the zone.</p>

Wurm
01-01-2012, 06:49 PM
<p>My first and last experiance (until this bug is fixed) with DF was having my loot rules completely reset to no loot which caused me to lose out on a roll on a rare instance mob in the next normal instance I went in.</p><p>Not cool SOE, not cool at all. Once someone leaves the DF group their loot rules should automatically return to normal.</p>

Mohee
01-01-2012, 06:56 PM
<p><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The ettin+worm fight is doable with a PQed geared tank... if you have two healers and don't mind dying. Fun? Thats something else entirely.</p></blockquote><p>Also an extremely easy fight if you have a mezzer <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Even without one its not that bad if people know what they're doing and know how to play their class. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Wands were the cheap way out, im glad they're gone!</p>

shots01
01-02-2012, 08:48 PM
<p>I don't feel that it sucks per se.  I also don't like the long wait times.</p><p>What I DO feel sucks is getting stuck in groups with kids. Like yesterday.  Three different times I tried the DF lvl 21-25 range and got stuck with kids playing tanks who were clueless.  In firemyst gully and either just ran and grabbed all getting us killed, or constantly going AFK..........and getting us killed.</p><p>I have been in several decent DF groups.</p>

shots01
01-02-2012, 08:51 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My first and last experience with dungeon finder last night showed me a trick I didn't think was possible.</p><p>Queued up. Zoned in within a matter of seconds, only to find myself outside the group -- the group comprised of three of the same guild, and what they were doing is letting folks join them in dungeon finder, booting them from group until they zoned in and could inspect their gear, etc .. then reinviting. I was reinvited but another player they pulled this same trick on was not. I left that group and went and made a new one with the other player who was booted and not reinvited and we had a grand time, picking up others in 1-9. The worst part was the player that was not reinvited after being booted by the initial group was penalized time-wise for DF. Doesn't seem fair.</p><p>I would suggest this ability to boot folks out of a DF group be tweaked somewhat. Players should be able to boot out a poorly behaving or overtly greedy (needing on everything) player, but how do you resolve this kind of behaviour?</p><p>Needless to say, I won't be going back.</p></blockquote><p>Miss Fille?? Hands you yer cupcakes!</p><p>That type of behavior should be banned.  Its uncalled for.  If those guild people want to run an instance, they should use their own people instead of hurting other peoples feelings by kicking them out.</p>

jdawg_1_1
01-02-2012, 08:56 PM
<p>They were probably trying to use the non lockout loophole...which is b/s btw....throw a lockout on DF groups and watch DF crash and burn cuz its pretty bad to use most of the time...XD ^^ i smell a peach in here XD</p>

shots01
01-02-2012, 09:34 PM
<p><cite>jdawg_1_1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They were probably trying to use the non lockout loophole...which is b/s btw....throw a lockout on DF groups and watch DF crash and burn cuz its pretty bad to use most of the time...XD ^^ i smell a peach in here XD</p></blockquote><p>LOL.</p><p>Where?</p><p>Runs and hides...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8f7fb9dd46fb8ef86f81154a4feaada9.gif" border="0" /></p>

Aethn
01-02-2012, 10:01 PM
<p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll be working on it after the new year.</p><p>But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...</p></blockquote><p>Its pointless to use if I can not join my friends who are lower level then I am since mentoring is a no go for DF. </p><p>Until you make it accept mentored players its not worth my time to sit in a que for 3 hours to get a dungeon group that will just break up in 15 in anyways.</p>

Isulith
01-02-2012, 10:41 PM
<p>Changed title from "Dungeon Finder sucks" to "Dungeon Finder needs improvement." Please remember to keep all posts and threads <strong>constructive</strong>. Thank you!</p>

deadcrickets2
01-03-2012, 05:39 PM
<p>More bugs I found today:</p><p>If you queue for a random dungeon and have a merc it'll bring you into it.  If it made you leader it will not reinforce by default.  You have to press the button.  If you suspend the merc after in the zone it bugs out and claims you aren't part of the dungeon finder group and/or the group is full.  If you keep the merc and fill the group it'll STILL reinforce.  So you'll see people joining the obviously full group but they can't get in even after you suspend the merc to allow them. </p><p>Notice a trend in regards to the merc?</p><p>No QA at all.</p><p>If you get a Dungeon Finder invite and it doesn't pull you into the dungeon (it does this off and on) and you make the mistake of zoning or were just clicking on a zone... forget it.  You just earned yourself the 15 minute timer.</p>

Daggster
01-04-2012, 09:48 AM
<p><cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Basically there needs to be a sanity check...IE, PQ and quest gear?  Can queue up for rime and tofs.  Ry'gorr can queue up for that plus kael.  Sanity check for Ry'gorr plus some kael jewelry and crit mit?  Can queue up for drunder heroic and for the tofs x2 (should be in df honestly).  Drunder heroic stuff?  Can queue up for EOW.</blockquote><p>You do realize you're "demanding" gear for Kael, that's supposed to be obtained doing Kael? Gems for Ry'Gorr drop in Kael instances and contested...</p>

Coolit
01-04-2012, 10:04 AM
<p >Tried it last night (on a lvl 55 toon) for the first time and it didn’t go to well <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I was grouped with another wizard and that was it so we were unable to proceed, if they can get this working properly I definitely use it as I can see it being of benefit.</p>