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Matanzas
12-20-2011, 08:05 AM
<p>Please please please don't go from stars to a "like system."</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">The house and dungeon leaderboards have now been converted from the previous 5-star rating system to a new "Like" system.</span></span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">When visiting a house or completing a dungeon maker zone you now have the option to "Like" the zone in either of the two categories.</span></span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">The leaderboards are now based on the accumulation of likes.</span></span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">Awards continue to work as before and are given to the players at the top of the leaderboard</span>.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This is not a good idea at all.  It is much better as it is now with the star rating sysem.  A star rating system as we have now is much better to allow people to actually judge if something is good or not.  Just having a like or dislike button really shows nothing.  Youtube did the same thing and everyone I have talked to about it hates it.  Why are you changing this?  It is fine as it is.</span></span></p>

Gravy
12-20-2011, 09:00 AM
<p>As a system, its less prone to being abused. Now a guild can't go and spam a bunch of 1 star reviews for a dungeon to help a guildies dungeon get to the top via a higher average score.</p>

IvyBlackrose
12-20-2011, 12:06 PM
<p>sorry i disagree the star/rating system as it is now is completely stupid and bogus, i cant count the number of houses i have seen that have 0 ratings but yet are running around with 20 30 40 house rewards, this is silly</p>

GussJr
12-20-2011, 12:08 PM
<p>Many of our opinions on the topic can already be found here... <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=508132" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=508132</a></p>

Evanair
12-20-2011, 12:30 PM
<p>Ivy, this also happens, especially on dungeons, when someone makes it, gets some awesome reviews and good feedback, but goes in and fixes a few bugs.Should we fault this person for wanting to improve his or her dungeon further?</p>

IvyBlackrose
12-20-2011, 12:35 PM
<p>that is true BUT most of these houses i see with no ratings and tons of awards are not the kind of house the owner is working hard on</p>

Evanair
12-20-2011, 12:45 PM
<p>Perhaps make awards dated?  Like (Last Award Dec 22, 2011)?</p><p>Another idea.  I would like if they had more than 2 reasons to rate this.  Style, Creativity are too close for a mission.  Perhaps: Detail, Origionality, Playability, Challange, and Overall as 5 things to rate?</p>

ZullieZevize
12-20-2011, 12:50 PM
<p>The 'like' system is worse than what we currently have.  At least now we can give 2.5 stars for a dungeon we dont like, but we dont hate it either.</p><p>It does not specify solo, group, difficulty, decoration, storyline, etc..   the solo'er going thru a dungeon designed for a group, wont like it, even though its solidly built.   A group, going thru a solo dungeon, wouldnt like being bored either.</p>

Eveningsong
12-20-2011, 01:06 PM
<p><cite>IvyBlackrose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>sorry i disagree the star/rating system as it is now is completely stupid and bogus, i cant count the number of houses i have seen that have 0 ratings but yet are running around with 20 30 40 house rewards, this is silly</p></blockquote><p>This is because the person recently unpublished and republished.  You don't lose the previously won rewards, but you do lose any votes/reviews and can't win any more awards until the house/dungeon has been relisted for 24 hours. </p><p>For instance, I have been tweaking my dungeon a bit here and there after running it with friends and running other dungeons, trying to better adjust the mob density and layout, and redecorating here and there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Unfortunately I lost my current votes, but I did keep the couple of awards I had and hopefully I'll start to build more again. </p><p>The actual number of reviews doesn't really have that much meaning taken by itself; you have to take into account the votes and the awards history together to get a better picture of how good a dungeon may or may not be.   But it is true that if the number of reviews is higher, it does at least mean that people actually made it through to the end to  vote, rather than giving up halfway as I've been forced to do a few times, lol.</p><p>Here's hoping that a change to a simpler system helps.  But really, as long as the system ranks one against the other, it probably doesn't matter whether you use stars or likes, it can and will still be abused, I'm sure.</p>

Pixiewrath
12-20-2011, 02:23 PM
<p>How can a like/dislike system not be abused?Adieu goes my 40 or so 5 star ratings... hello and welcome abusive thumb downs!I got angry on YouTube when they changed the system and now they do it here as well.Might as well put in an auto rating system to make it even more simple... -_-</p>

Reimas
12-20-2011, 05:50 PM
<p>The new ranking system is absolutely atrocious. </p><p>You are now seeing token farm dungeons which were the basic shell with easy to grind mob groups that took no more than 30 minutes to throw together ranking higher than dungeons that clearly took hours and hours of time to compile. There is now zero incentive to do anything creative whatsoever, because those token farm dungeons will hit the hall of fame just as quickly IF NOT SOONER.</p><p>Furthermore, there is no thumbs down, there is no way to indicate you did not like a dungeon, as such you will see people hit the thumbs up without any kind of thought put into the decision whatsoever, because it's as automated as hitting the next dialogue option when receiving a quest.</p><p>I throw my hands up in disgust and walk away from the DM system until this is remedied.</p>

Gravy
12-20-2011, 05:59 PM
<p><cite>Reimas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new ranking system is absolutely atrocious. </p><p>You are now seeing token farm dungeons which were the basic shell with easy to grind mob groups that took no more than 30 minutes to throw together ranking higher than dungeons that clearly took hours and hours of time to compile. There is now zero incentive to do anything creative whatsoever, because those token farm dungeons will hit the hall of fame just as quickly IF NOT SOONER.</p><p>I throw my hands up in disgust and walk away from the DM system until this is remedied.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe the players want token grinding dungeons.</p>

Reimas
12-20-2011, 06:02 PM
<p><cite>Gravy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Reimas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new ranking system is absolutely atrocious. </p><p>You are now seeing token farm dungeons which were the basic shell with easy to grind mob groups that took no more than 30 minutes to throw together ranking higher than dungeons that clearly took hours and hours of time to compile. There is now zero incentive to do anything creative whatsoever, because those token farm dungeons will hit the hall of fame just as quickly IF NOT SOONER.</p><p>I throw my hands up in disgust and walk away from the DM system until this is remedied.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe the players want token grinding dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>LOL of course they do, just like the world wants McDonalds, it's fast and effortless.  Do you believe this means that McDonalds should be rated in the same matrix as fine food?</p>

Gravy
12-20-2011, 06:04 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>hello and welcome abusive thumb downs!</p></blockquote><p>There are no thumbs down in the system.</p>

Gravy
12-20-2011, 06:08 PM
<p><cite>Reimas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gravy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Reimas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new ranking system is absolutely atrocious. </p><p>You are now seeing token farm dungeons which were the basic shell with easy to grind mob groups that took no more than 30 minutes to throw together ranking higher than dungeons that clearly took hours and hours of time to compile. There is now zero incentive to do anything creative whatsoever, because those token farm dungeons will hit the hall of fame just as quickly IF NOT SOONER.</p><p>I throw my hands up in disgust and walk away from the DM system until this is remedied.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe the players want token grinding dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>LOL of course they do, just like the world wants McDonalds, it's fast and effortless.  Do you believe this means that McDonalds should be rated in the same matrix as fine food?</p></blockquote><p>You can build dungeons how you want all day long. If people don't want them, they will sit empty.</p><p>You can make a fine dining establishment but if no one wants to eat there it will close quickly.</p><p>The real issue is you. What are you so worried about your Likes? Build your dungeon your way. Let the chips (or tokens) fall where they may.</p>

Reimas
12-20-2011, 06:13 PM
<p><cite>Gravy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Reimas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gravy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Reimas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new ranking system is absolutely atrocious. </p><p>You are now seeing token farm dungeons which were the basic shell with easy to grind mob groups that took no more than 30 minutes to throw together ranking higher than dungeons that clearly took hours and hours of time to compile. There is now zero incentive to do anything creative whatsoever, because those token farm dungeons will hit the hall of fame just as quickly IF NOT SOONER.</p><p>I throw my hands up in disgust and walk away from the DM system until this is remedied.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe the players want token grinding dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>LOL of course they do, just like the world wants McDonalds, it's fast and effortless.  Do you believe this means that McDonalds should be rated in the same matrix as fine food?</p></blockquote><p>You can build dungeons how you want all day long. If people don't want them, they will sit empty.</p><p>You can make a fine dining establishment but if no one wants to eat there it will close quickly.</p><p>The real issue is you. What are you so worried about your Likes? Build your dungeon your way. Let the chips (or tokens) fall where they may.</p></blockquote><p>Who said *I* personally had any dungeons?</p>

piro
12-20-2011, 06:49 PM
<p><cite>Reimas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new ranking system is absolutely atrocious. </p><p>You are now seeing token farm dungeons which were the basic shell with easy to grind mob groups that took no more than 30 minutes to throw together ranking higher than dungeons that clearly took hours and hours of time to compile. There is now zero incentive to do anything creative whatsoever, because those token farm dungeons will hit the hall of fame just as quickly IF NOT SOONER.</p><p>Furthermore, there is no thumbs down, there is no way to indicate you did not like a dungeon, as such you will see people hit the thumbs up without any kind of thought put into the decision whatsoever, because it's as automated as hitting the next dialogue option when receiving a quest.</p><p>I throw my hands up in disgust and walk away from the DM system until this is remedied.</p></blockquote><p>This isnt really fair to say. i am one of those guys with a token farm dungeon. First off it took me way longer than a 30 minutes to make it. its all about mob placement and the ability to lay it so one can get tokens and not spend hours trying to figure their way around the thing. not to mention for me its been a great help to learn distances of mobs aggro and help radius since we dont have a way of seeing it. I adjust it almost daily to maximize efficiency ... a 20 min run with any of the avatars i have will net you 67 tokens so far. I am sure there are many better but im still learning. The reason i do this is for tokens and learning of system in place so i can build better dungeons ... currently I am working on one using the the patrol mechanic for a wave type dungeon.</p><p>I have ran dozens upon dozens of these dungeons the one thing i find most common is bad mob placement like the maze ones, well decorated and all but some of the rooms you walk into and get 20 mobs on you at once. while im sure its not intended by the builder i have to wander if he/she ran it at all to test.  </p><p>Kinda off topic i know but just my 2 cp,</p><p>I do agree with the like system being crap. I was really hoping for an even more in depth rating system as how else will we know our houses /dungeons suck ?</p>

Gladiolus
12-20-2011, 07:33 PM
<p><cite>Gravy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The real issue is you. What are you so worried about your Likes? Build your dungeon your way. Let the chips (or tokens) fall where they may.</p></blockquote><p>From the point of view of building a dungeon, I agree with that. The system is also sufficient for published houses. Nobody else uses your house, they can just look at it.</p><p>Dungeons are a different matter. When I have half an hour to play, I prefer to spend it playing through one that has been better rated. That doesn't mean that if I did play them all, I'd agree with every rating, but the chances are that I'd prefer more from the higher rated ones.</p>

Aethn
12-20-2011, 08:40 PM
<p>This is an excellent change, far too many trolls out there down rating good dungeons and houses just be be Dbags</p>

Drusi
12-20-2011, 08:52 PM
<p>Love this change. If people don't like your dungeon, they won't "like" it. If they do like it, they will give you a "like" and jerks won't be able to take away those "likes" to bump their own dungeons higher. This system may also help encourage "shy" people to publish dungeons and houses since people won't be able to grief them by telling them (one starring) the stuff they worked so hard on sucks, even when it doesn't and thus discouraging them from publishing anything else.</p><p>I agree there should be more categories though. Style and creativity aren't enough.</p>

Celline-Layonaire
12-21-2011, 05:26 AM
<p>To some of you guys : why do you think the 'star' system is so special and great? You sound like the 'like' system is so much inferior. Atrocious? Really?</p><p> (and there's no 'dislike' button from what I see)</p>

Matanzas
12-21-2011, 05:57 AM
<p>Well with this like system, you can't really tell what is the best dungeon.  let's say i have 5 people run my dungeon who all rate it 5 stars.  Then Chris Xt4ie has 50 people run his dungeon and rate it 2.5 stars.  Suddenly his is now ahead of my dungeon because more people ran it.  make sense?</p><p>This system is basicly just how many people have run your dungeon vs. which dungeon is the best.</p>

Pixiewrath
12-21-2011, 09:06 AM
<p>I didn't like this new system until I saw my dungeon was suddenly on top with most like buttons, lol.No, but seriously, once I saw there were no "Dislikes" displayed I realized that it was good.I also appreciate that houses are sorted by ranking instead of date added (though I wish we could toggle that sorting on and off as well, if not possible already to easier see new dungeons).I did get confused on SmokeJumpers newsletter though, as it says it will display a % ratio of likes, but so far I have only seen the actual amount of likes on them?</p>

Keran77
12-21-2011, 12:45 PM
<p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well with this like system, you can't really tell what is the best dungeon.  let's say i have 5 people run my dungeon who all rate it 5 stars.  Then Chris Xt4ie has 50 people run his dungeon and rate it 2.5 stars.  Suddenly his is now ahead of my dungeon because more people ran it.  make sense?</p><p>This system is basicly just how many people have run your dungeon vs. which dungeon is the best.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong example. Only ratings of 3 stars and more are counted as "like", ARAIK. </p><p>And yes, new system is a system of "popularity", not a "quality". It's less friendly for creators, but more friendly for visitors. Millions of lemmings couldn't be wrong, right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The only improvement I want is to see also a total number of unique-per-account visits to dungeon, or maybe - just a number of thouse, who gots an exit, but chooses not to vote "Like". That number shouldn't be used in rating calculation, however it should be available to players - just for information.</p>

msgnomer
12-21-2011, 12:53 PM
<p>if it's really listed by most likes, then that clearly favors those people that were first to publish dungeons rather than necessarily the best dungeon (by any criteria). </p><p>Hopefully there's still a way to reorder by latest published.  Someone has to go through the newly published dungeons or the good new ones will never get any likes....  I make a point of at least trying the less rated dungeons, although now I won't be able to distinguish between a dungeon that few have gone through versus ones that people don't like.  Either way, I could walk unwittingly into evil deathfests, but that was a risk I was willing to take.</p>

Keran77
12-21-2011, 01:07 PM
<p><cite>msgnomer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>if it's really listed by most likes, then that clearly favors those people that were first to publish dungeons rather than necessarily the best dungeon (by any criteria). </p><p>Hopefully there's still a way to reorder by latest published.  Someone has to go through the newly published dungeons or the good new ones will never get any likes....  I make a point of at least trying the less rated dungeons, although now I won't be able to distinguish between a dungeon that few have gone through versus ones that people don't like.  Either way, I could walk unwittingly into evil deathfests, but that was a risk I was willing to take.</p></blockquote><p>There is also an ability to see only "recent" ratings. I'm not sure about exact period, but it seems to count only last week (or month?) reviews. This means, that if someone has got 1000 likes a year ago, but only 5 last month, then in "recent" ratings section he will be shown as having only 5 likes, at according place.</p><p>UPD. Ah, just found recent Rothgar's post (<strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">highliting</span></strong><strong> </strong>is mine):</p><div><p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bhagpuss wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thanks Rothgar. This is a much-needed change and will at least make it very difficult for houses to be griefed, which was the main issue.</p><p>There are probably still refinements that can be made. Having to vote every day isn't ideal and the new system is still more of a popularity contest or a test of a decorator's networking ability rather than his or her talent, but that might well be beyond the scope of any voting system to address.</p><p>That aside, it's a big improvement.</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for the feedback.  Also, this wasn't called out in the release notes, but <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">we changed the "recent" votes to now last for 7 days instead of 48 hours</span></strong>.  So, your votes won't fall off as fast which should make it less likely for people to game the system.  We can continue to tweak that number if necessary.  I'd love to hear what you guys think about this change a week from now.  The recent numbers should be a little more stable.</p></blockquote></div>

Guleipho
12-21-2011, 03:27 PM
<p>To my understanding, the dungeon rating system is just as bugged/abused, as the house rating system.</p><p>* Once you recieve a slew of the lowest score, you'll never reach 5 stars again ... *</p><p>Its a cop-out solution, to an otherwise simple problem solved by a little thought, but at least the "LIKE" button will give me a fighting chance in the dungeon rating system.</p>

Matanzas
12-21-2011, 04:38 PM
<p>If it also showed the percetage of likes instead of just likes... that would be better than how it is now.  But just raw likes is not a good idea.</p>

Pixiewrath
12-21-2011, 04:55 PM
<p>In Smoke's newsletter it said they would be shown in percentage so I am not sure why they aren't.And I don't know how the conversion was made either.Before the conversion I had 36 ratings or so in creativity, and 5 stars.After, I suddenly had 24 ratings on what is now action...Did they only take the 5-star ratings or what? I am confused.</p>

Keran77
12-21-2011, 06:11 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In Smoke's newsletter it said they would be shown in percentage so I am not sure why they aren't.And I don't know how the conversion was made either.Before the conversion I had 36 ratings or so in creativity, and 5 stars.After, I suddenly had 24 ratings on what is now action...Did they only take the 5-star ratings or what? I am confused.</p></blockquote><p>There was some misterious (at least for me) calculation system, according to which they filtered "uncommon" votes... So, as I understand, you can have some really low ratings, but still have total value of 5.</p><p>I've seen some dungeon with 3 reviews and 5-star rating, which became 2,5 after I rated it 1,5. Seems like in that 3 reviews not all was 5*, but "uncommon" ones was just filtered as a garbage - until my vote, which changes the balance.</p>

Fyrstar2004
12-21-2011, 08:03 PM
<p><cite>piro wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Reimas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new ranking system is absolutely atrocious. </p><p>You are now seeing token farm dungeons which were the basic shell with easy to grind mob groups that took no more than 30 minutes to throw together ranking higher than dungeons that clearly took hours and hours of time to compile. There is now zero incentive to do anything creative whatsoever, because those token farm dungeons will hit the hall of fame just as quickly IF NOT SOONER.</p><p>Furthermore, there is no thumbs down, there is no way to indicate you did not like a dungeon, as such you will see people hit the thumbs up without any kind of thought put into the decision whatsoever, because it's as automated as hitting the next dialogue option when receiving a quest.</p><p>I throw my hands up in disgust and walk away from the DM system until this is remedied.</p></blockquote><p>This isnt really fair to say. i am one of those guys with a token farm dungeon. First off it took me way longer than a 30 minutes to make it. its all about mob placement and the ability to lay it so one can get tokens and not spend hours trying to figure their way around the thing. not to mention for me its been a great help to learn distances of mobs aggro and help radius since we dont have a way of seeing it. I adjust it almost daily to maximize efficiency ... a 20 min run with any of the avatars i have will net you 67 tokens so far. I am sure there are many better but im still learning. The reason i do this is for tokens and learning of system in place so i can build better dungeons ... currently I am working on one using the the patrol mechanic for a wave type dungeon.</p><p>I have ran dozens upon dozens of these dungeons the one thing i find most common is bad mob placement like the maze ones, well decorated and all but some of the rooms you walk into and get 20 mobs on you at once. while im sure its not intended by the builder i have to wander if he/she ran it at all to test.</p><p>Kinda off topic i know but just my 2 cp,</p><p>I do agree with the like system being crap. I was really hoping for an even more in depth rating system as how else will we know our houses /dungeons suck ?</p></blockquote><p>I guess this is referring to my dungeon=D  I left it up for so long because I was hoping they would hotfix fabricated walls and ceilings to be not LOS and AOE proof.  They didn't.</p><p>I fixed it, and all is better now=D</p>

Rainmare
12-21-2011, 08:34 PM
<p>I don't like the like system becuase it blatantly says 'he who has the biggest guild wins'. it's basically the person who has the most 'likes' is at the top of the list.</p><p>I know maybe, MAYBE 6 or so people in the game that would vote for my house. which means I'll never been in the top three, who are members of guilds with 44 or more members that they have vote like on thier homes to get the fancy trophy to put in the guildhall.</p><p>heck I'll never even see the top ten again, most likely.</p><p>same thign for dungeons. at least if I only have 4-5 people run a dungeon, if they all give me 4 stars or 5 stars, I had a fighting chance to be in the top listing. with teh like system, 5-6 'likes' doesn't even break the top 25.</p>

Pixiewrath
12-21-2011, 11:17 PM
<p>Thank you so much SoE for removing all ratings from The Bazaar while doing the merge.... Now I lost 30 ratings on my dungeon and it's placed from the top one on our server to the bottom among the farming ones with 0 likes...I also lost all my UIsettings and can only see the ones from the test servers...SIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

Keran77
12-22-2011, 12:13 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't like the like system becuase it blatantly says 'he who has the biggest guild wins'. it's basically the person who has the most 'likes' is at the top of the list.</p><p>I know maybe, MAYBE 6 or so people in the game that would vote for my house. which means I'll never been in the top three, who are members of guilds with 44 or more members that they have vote like on thier homes to get the fancy trophy to put in the guildhall.</p><p>heck I'll never even see the top ten again, most likely.</p><p>same thign for dungeons. at least if I only have 4-5 people run a dungeon, if they all give me 4 stars or 5 stars, I had a fighting chance to be in the top listing. with teh like system, 5-6 'likes' doesn't even break the top 25.</p></blockquote><p>Stars system was no better. The one from the big guild gots a lot of 5-star reviews and also all of serious competitors gots a lot of 1-star reviews.</p><p>And, by the way, when I see a house or a dungeon with 2-3 5-star reviews, I'm almost sure that that 2-3 reviewers was just a friends of creator, so that rating costs nothing.</p><p>I know, my own dungeon have 2 review - one from my wife, other from my good guildmate. So what?</p><p>What we really needs, is an advertisment. In real world there is a lot of glossy magazines with pictures of most stylish houses, flats, yachts etc. Here in game we have only leaderboard (which gives us a name and a small picture) and a topic at forum.</p><p>I think, next improvements would be great for advertisment goals:</p><p><ol><li>Portals to dungeons, which can be placed in houses and guildhalls.</li><li>Much more info at leaderboard - more than 1 picture of bigger size and some textual description, at least. Also, ability to filter dungeons/houses with less pictures than stated.</li><li>"Random dungeon/house" buttons.</li><li>Some social functions, like info about dungeons/houses liked by your in-game friends.</li><li>Leaderboard of creators.</li><li>Ability to quicklink all dungeons/houses of creator of selected dungeon/house.</li><li>Filtering leaderboards by last visited and by blacklist, so I can exclude from my leaderboard lists already visited (and not updated since that) dungeonds/houses or any dungeons/houses of annoying autors.</li></ol></p>

apwyork
12-22-2011, 12:50 AM
<p>No, they just spam a bunch of likes and get the same results.  I in no way see how this change really makes any difference at all.  Do they like it because it's well layed out, decorated, easy, challenging, lot of marks, little time, etc?  Nobody has any way to tell what they liked or why, making this a really useless change.</p>

Keran77
12-22-2011, 12:57 AM
<p><cite>apwyork wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, they just spam a bunch of likes and get the same results.  I in no way see how this change really makes any difference at all.  Do they like it because it's well layed out, decorated, easy, challenging, lot of marks, little time, etc?  Nobody has any way to tell what they liked or why, making this a really useless change.</p></blockquote><p>This change really makes only one difference: dishonest autors can no more downrate their competitirs. That's all. No more differences. No more improvements. Just one bug less.</p>

Matanzas
12-22-2011, 02:05 AM
<p><cite>Keran77 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>apwyork wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, they just spam a bunch of likes and get the same results.  I in no way see how this change really makes any difference at all.  Do they like it because it's well layed out, decorated, easy, challenging, lot of marks, little time, etc?  Nobody has any way to tell what they liked or why, making this a really useless change.</p></blockquote><p>This change really makes only one difference: dishonest autors can no more downrate their competitirs. That's all. No more differences. No more improvements. Just one bug less.</p></blockquote><p>That is rather incorrect and arrogant of you to say.  If you believe that is the only difference, you are sorely mistaken and are either misinformed or lack the ability to understand a situation past one small area. </p><p>With this change it is just which zone has had more people run rather than which one is best.  Like i have said above, 30 people running Jeff's zone think eh, it is okay and would have rated it 3 stars now just give it a like.  10 people run Alex's zone, which Alex spent 20+ hours doing and only has 10 people run it.  They all think it is amazing and would have given it a 5 star rating but just press like.  Now you see two zones, Jeff's zone and Alex's zone.  Even though Alex's zone is much better, Jeff's zone is rated higher.  Makes sense?  I think not.</p><p>Really, your statement is very short sighted and you should think twice before posting garbage like that.</p>

Rainmare
12-22-2011, 02:17 AM
<p><cite>Keran77 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't like the like system becuase it blatantly says 'he who has the biggest guild wins'. it's basically the person who has the most 'likes' is at the top of the list.</p><p>I know maybe, MAYBE 6 or so people in the game that would vote for my house. which means I'll never been in the top three, who are members of guilds with 44 or more members that they have vote like on thier homes to get the fancy trophy to put in the guildhall.</p><p>heck I'll never even see the top ten again, most likely.</p><p>same thign for dungeons. at least if I only have 4-5 people run a dungeon, if they all give me 4 stars or 5 stars, I had a fighting chance to be in the top listing. with teh like system, 5-6 'likes' doesn't even break the top 25.</p></blockquote><p>Stars system was no better. The one from the big guild gots a lot of 5-star reviews and also all of serious competitors gots a lot of 1-star reviews.</p><p>And, by the way, when I see a house or a dungeon with 2-3 5-star reviews, I'm almost sure that that 2-3 reviewers was just a friends of creator, so that rating costs nothing.</p><p>I know, my own dungeon have 2 review - one from my wife, other from my good guildmate. So what?</p><p>What we really needs, is an advertisment. In real world there is a lot of glossy magazines with pictures of most stylish houses, flats, yachts etc. Here in game we have only leaderboard (which gives us a name and a small picture) and a topic at forum.</p><p>I think, next improvements would be great for advertisment goals:</p><ol><li>Portals to dungeons, which can be placed in houses and guildhalls.</li><li>Much more info at leaderboard - more than 1 picture of bigger size and some textual description, at least. Also, ability to filter dungeons/houses with less pictures than stated.</li><li>"Random dungeon/house" buttons.</li><li>Some social functions, like info about dungeons/houses liked by your in-game friends.</li><li>Leaderboard of creators.</li><li>Ability to quicklink all dungeons/houses of creator of selected dungeon/house.</li><li>Filtering leaderboards by last visited and by blacklist, so I can exclude from my leaderboard lists already visited (and not updated since that) dungeonds/houses or any dungeons/houses of annoying autors.</li></ol></blockquote><p>My issue is now there ARE no serious competitors, at least among people that aren't also in huge guilds.</p><p>your right, in the old system they could '1 star' the competition. I got bombed with it a few times myself. but at least with 4-5 people that voted 4-5 stars on my home, I was a 'threat'. sure they were friends or guildmates, or people that I shared decorating ideas with, and not strangers.</p><p>Allow me to put it this way. after this change went in, the highest home has 44 votes. the next higest had somewhere in the mid thirties, the next in the low thirties...and so on down the list, until you get to about rank 30, which is the 5-6 likes.</p><p>it means if I got everyone I know to give a like on my home/dungeon, I don't even get a chance to qualify for an 'award' to work on getting the hall of fame trophy, and on top of that, my home/dungeon is in the 30+ rank which means virtually no one will EVER see it...so unless I spam/advertise every 30 minutes or so in 1-9 or 80-89 channels, my home/dungeon might as well not even be published.</p><p>and I'm sure 'spamming' the channel would get me good attention, right? not like that isn't going to get me /ignored or my house/dungeon ignored simply on principal, right?</p>

Judist
12-22-2011, 03:28 AM
<p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really, your statement is very short sighted and you should think twice before posting garbage like that.</p></blockquote><p>I tweaked (improved) renamed (wiped awards) and republished (wiped ratings) a well rated 5 star dungeon just to watch it <strong>immediately</strong> get spammed with 1 star ratings. Fortunately I'm a big boy and can shrug it off, it eventually gained its status back anyways.</p><p>The point is both systems are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">flawed</span> and both can be used to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">misrepresent</span> quality. The "stars" system was no more trustworthy than the "like" system.</p><p>The opinions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are legitimate and logical. Far from garbage...</p>

Matanzas
12-22-2011, 03:37 AM
<p><cite>Judist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really, your statement is very short sighted and you should think twice before posting garbage like that.</p></blockquote><p>I tweaked (improved) renamed (wiped awards) and republished (wiped ratings) a well rated 5 star dungeon just to watch it <strong>immediately</strong> get spammed with 1 star ratings. Fortunately I'm a big boy and can shrug it off, it eventually gained its status back anyways.</p><p>The point is both systems are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">flawed</span> and both can be used to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">misrepresent</span> quality. The "stars" system was no more trustworthy than the "like" system.</p><p>The opinions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are legitimate and logical. Far from garbage...</p></blockquote><p>The opions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are not legitimate nor logical.  We lost the ability to tell the difference between amature dungeons and great dungeons.</p>

Celline-Layonaire
12-22-2011, 03:42 AM
<p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well with this like system, you can't really tell what is the best dungeon.  let's say i have 5 people run my dungeon who all rate it 5 stars.  Then Chris Xt4ie has 50 people run his dungeon and rate it 2.5 stars.  Suddenly his is now ahead of my dungeon because more people ran it.  make sense?</p><p>This system is basicly just how many people have run your dungeon vs. which dungeon is the best.</p></blockquote><p>...Don't you think the people who just run dungeons are also highly likely not to give a 'like' ?</p>

Rothgar
12-22-2011, 03:53 AM
<p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Judist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really, your statement is very short sighted and you should think twice before posting garbage like that.</p></blockquote><p>I tweaked (improved) renamed (wiped awards) and republished (wiped ratings) a well rated 5 star dungeon just to watch it <strong>immediately</strong> get spammed with 1 star ratings. Fortunately I'm a big boy and can shrug it off, it eventually gained its status back anyways.</p><p>The point is both systems are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">flawed</span> and both can be used to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">misrepresent</span> quality. The "stars" system was no more trustworthy than the "like" system.</p><p>The opinions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are legitimate and logical. Far from garbage...</p></blockquote><p>The opions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are not legitimate nor logical.  We lost the ability to tell the difference between amature dungeons and great dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree slightly.  I think the better dungeons will receive more likes than the mediocre dungeons.   People often complained that the 5-star system was too granular.  What REALLY was the difference between 3 stars and 3.5 stars?  Everyone has different opinions on what those star ratings mean.</p><p>Now its much simpler, you either like it or you don't.  People that are borderline, some will hit like and some won't.  But if the house or dungeon is truly amazing, less people will be borderline which means more likes and higher rankings.</p><p>Using the argument that a large guild will game the system can also be said about the star system except they had TWO ways to game it.  Not only could they put in lots of votes to increase someone's ratings, they could also put in lots of votes to down-rate someone else's dungeon. </p><p>With the new system this is less likely to happen.  Also, the system is self-leveling.  If someone gets a bunch of friends to give them a lot of reviews they will make it to the top of the list.  Once they are at the top, a lot of other people (not their friends) will begin visiting it.  If the house/dungeon doesn't live up to the ratings, it won't stay on top.</p>

Celline-Layonaire
12-22-2011, 03:57 AM
<p><cite>apwyork wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, they just spam a bunch of likes and get the same results.  I in no way see how this change really makes any difference at all.  Do they like it because it's well layed out, decorated, easy, challenging, lot of marks, little time, etc?  Nobody has any way to tell what they liked or why, making this a really useless change.</p></blockquote><p>So, at least we can't say if the system is changed for the worse because it's not that different compared to 'Star' system(which also doesn't show why people gave 5stars, 4stars, etc). Right?</p><p>And I think, in order for the 'Star' system to be a bit more useful, we should also be able to see the every single(which is sure to be a very daunting and time-consuming thing), respective ratings one by one(maybe classified and categorised by player habit and playstyle), not only the acumulated rating.</p>

Celline-Layonaire
12-22-2011, 04:13 AM
<p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Judist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really, your statement is very short sighted and you should think twice before posting garbage like that.</p></blockquote><p>I tweaked (improved) renamed (wiped awards) and republished (wiped ratings) a well rated 5 star dungeon just to watch it <strong>immediately</strong> get spammed with 1 star ratings. Fortunately I'm a big boy and can shrug it off, it eventually gained its status back anyways.</p><p>The point is both systems are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">flawed</span> and both can be used to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">misrepresent</span> quality. The "stars" system was no more trustworthy than the "like" system.</p><p>The opinions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are legitimate and logical. Far from garbage...</p></blockquote><p>The opions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are not legitimate nor logical.  We lost the ability to tell the difference between amature dungeons and great dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>It seems to me you're also not worthy to call others as 'arrogant'   <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>(with 'like' system we cannot tell what is good dungeon and what is bad one, huh? Don't you think it remains to be seen? And think about a situation where there are 3 dungeons with '5-star rating'. First one is good, second one is actually so-so but people rated it high, and third one is beyond amazing. Of course, you didn't run these dungeons and didn't see any reviews yet. Then, how can you tell this 'star' rating system is much better than the 'like' system?)     </p>

Farahn
12-22-2011, 08:17 AM
<p>Never will everybody be satisfied.</p>

Rainmare
12-22-2011, 09:55 AM
<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree slightly.  I think the better dungeons will receive more likes than the mediocre dungeons.   People often complained that the 5-star system was too granular.  What REALLY was the difference between 3 stars and 3.5 stars?  Everyone has different opinions on what those star ratings mean.</p><p>Now its much simpler, you either like it or you don't.  People that are borderline, some will hit like and some won't.  But if the house or dungeon is truly amazing, less people will be borderline which means more likes and higher rankings.</p><p>Using the argument that a large guild will game the system can also be said about the star system except they had TWO ways to game it.  Not only could they put in lots of votes to increase someone's ratings, they could also put in lots of votes to down-rate someone else's dungeon. </p><p>With the new system this is less likely to happen.  Also, the system is self-leveling.  If someone gets a bunch of friends to give them a lot of reviews they will make it to the top of the list.  Once they are at the top, a lot of other people (not their friends) will begin visiting it.  If the house/dungeon doesn't live up to the ratings, it won't stay on top.</p></blockquote><p>Here's the issue I have, Rothgar. it's very simple. everyone I know, in game, that would visit my house or one of my dungeons simply out of a courtesy to me, amounts to maybe 6 people. possibly as high as 8 or 10 on a day where everyone logs in.</p><p>in the old system, that many people coudl get me in the top 10 or 20. I had a shot to get it where people would see it when they open up the homeshow tab or the dungeon maker tab. like it or not, most people do not go past the second 'page' of listings.</p><p>now, with that same about of votes for liking it, I'd be lucky to hit the top 30. which means I'm on page 3 or later...which means I might as well not even bother. now for dungeons, this might be a more self correcting problem becuase people run dungeons for the tokens...with the idea I guess that 44 likes against 100 people running it might drop thier position. but it's still the idea of every person on the first page would have to drop 10 or more positions each so the people on pages 3+ would even be seen by most of the server.</p>

Matanzas
12-22-2011, 04:23 PM
<p><cite>Celline-Layonaire wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Judist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really, your statement is very short sighted and you should think twice before posting garbage like that.</p></blockquote><p>I tweaked (improved) renamed (wiped awards) and republished (wiped ratings) a well rated 5 star dungeon just to watch it <strong>immediately</strong> get spammed with 1 star ratings. Fortunately I'm a big boy and can shrug it off, it eventually gained its status back anyways.</p><p>The point is both systems are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">flawed</span> and both can be used to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">misrepresent</span> quality. The "stars" system was no more trustworthy than the "like" system.</p><p>The opinions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are legitimate and logical. Far from garbage...</p></blockquote><p>The opions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are not legitimate nor logical.  We lost the ability to tell the difference between amature dungeons and great dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>It seems to me you're also not worthy to call others as 'arrogant'   <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>(with 'like' system we cannot tell what is good dungeon and what is bad one, huh? Don't you think it remains to be seen? And think about a situation where there are 3 dungeons with '5-star rating'. First one is good, second one is actually so-so but people rated it high, and third one is beyond amazing. Of course, you didn't run these dungeons and didn't see any reviews yet. Then, how can you tell this 'star' rating system is much better than the 'like' system?)     </p></blockquote><p>Your proposed situation is far less likely to take place with the 5 star system than it is with this current like system.</p>

Celline-Layonaire
12-23-2011, 04:44 AM
<p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Celline-Layonaire wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Judist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really, your statement is very short sighted and you should think twice before posting garbage like that.</p></blockquote><p>I tweaked (improved) renamed (wiped awards) and republished (wiped ratings) a well rated 5 star dungeon just to watch it <strong>immediately</strong> get spammed with 1 star ratings. Fortunately I'm a big boy and can shrug it off, it eventually gained its status back anyways.</p><p>The point is both systems are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">flawed</span> and both can be used to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">misrepresent</span> quality. The "stars" system was no more trustworthy than the "like" system.</p><p>The opinions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are legitimate and logical. Far from garbage...</p></blockquote><p>The opions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are not legitimate nor logical.  We lost the ability to tell the difference between amature dungeons and great dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>It seems to me you're also not worthy to call others as 'arrogant'   <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>(with 'like' system we cannot tell what is good dungeon and what is bad one, huh? Don't you think it remains to be seen? And think about a situation where there are 3 dungeons with '5-star rating'. First one is good, second one is actually so-so but people rated it high, and third one is beyond amazing. Of course, you didn't run these dungeons and didn't see any reviews yet. Then, how can you tell this 'star' rating system is much better than the 'like' system?)     </p></blockquote><p>Your proposed situation is <strong>far less likely</strong> to take place with the 5 star system than it is with this current like system.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah it's less likely to happen with 5 star system, but why did you write 'far less likely' instead of just 'less likely' ?</p><p>(and IMHO, unless this 'like' system forces players to click on the 'like' button whenever players finish dungeons, it can show a wee bit more elaborate, sophisticated value of each dungeon. Well, of course if we suppose there are enough 'likes' accumulated already.</p><p>So both systems have their pros and cons, and I don't believe this new 'like' system is far inferior method as you guys say it is. We will see, though.)  </p>

Matanzas
12-23-2011, 04:50 AM
<p><cite>Celline-Layonaire wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Celline-Layonaire wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Judist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really, your statement is very short sighted and you should think twice before posting garbage like that.</p></blockquote><p>I tweaked (improved) renamed (wiped awards) and republished (wiped ratings) a well rated 5 star dungeon just to watch it <strong>immediately</strong> get spammed with 1 star ratings. Fortunately I'm a big boy and can shrug it off, it eventually gained its status back anyways.</p><p>The point is both systems are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">flawed</span> and both can be used to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">misrepresent</span> quality. The "stars" system was no more trustworthy than the "like" system.</p><p>The opinions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are legitimate and logical. Far from garbage...</p></blockquote><p>The opions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are not legitimate nor logical.  We lost the ability to tell the difference between amature dungeons and great dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>It seems to me you're also not worthy to call others as 'arrogant'   <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>(with 'like' system we cannot tell what is good dungeon and what is bad one, huh? Don't you think it remains to be seen? And think about a situation where there are 3 dungeons with '5-star rating'. First one is good, second one is actually so-so but people rated it high, and third one is beyond amazing. Of course, you didn't run these dungeons and didn't see any reviews yet. Then, how can you tell this 'star' rating system is much better than the 'like' system?)     </p></blockquote><p>Your proposed situation is <strong>far less likely</strong> to take place with the 5 star system than it is with this current like system.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah it's less likely to happen with 5 star system, but why did you write 'far less likely' instead of just 'less likely' ?</p><p>(and IMHO, unless this 'like' system forces players to click on the 'like' button whenever players finish dungeons, it can show a wee bit more elaborate, sophisticated value of each dungeon. Well, of course if we suppose there are enough 'likes' accumulated already.</p><p>So both systems have their pros and cons, and I don't believe this new 'like' system is far inferior method as you guys say it is. We will see, though.)  </p></blockquote><p>It may not be FAR inferior, and does have some usefulness, I still believe it is inferior to the 5 star system.</p>

Celline-Layonaire
12-23-2011, 05:16 AM
<p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Celline-Layonaire wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Celline-Layonaire wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Judist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Matanzas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really, your statement is very short sighted and you should think twice before posting garbage like that.</p></blockquote><p>I tweaked (improved) renamed (wiped awards) and republished (wiped ratings) a well rated 5 star dungeon just to watch it <strong>immediately</strong> get spammed with 1 star ratings. Fortunately I'm a big boy and can shrug it off, it eventually gained its status back anyways.</p><p>The point is both systems are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">flawed</span> and both can be used to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">misrepresent</span> quality. The "stars" system was no more trustworthy than the "like" system.</p><p>The opinions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are legitimate and logical. Far from garbage...</p></blockquote><p>The opions that the only thing we lost was the ability to sabotage a dungeon are not legitimate nor logical.  We lost the ability to tell the difference between amature dungeons and great dungeons.</p></blockquote><p>It seems to me you're also not worthy to call others as 'arrogant'   <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>(with 'like' system we cannot tell what is good dungeon and what is bad one, huh? Don't you think it remains to be seen? And think about a situation where there are 3 dungeons with '5-star rating'. First one is good, second one is actually so-so but people rated it high, and third one is beyond amazing. Of course, you didn't run these dungeons and didn't see any reviews yet. Then, how can you tell this 'star' rating system is much better than the 'like' system?)     </p></blockquote><p>Your proposed situation is <strong>far less likely</strong> to take place with the 5 star system than it is with this current like system.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah it's less likely to happen with 5 star system, but why did you write 'far less likely' instead of just 'less likely' ?</p><p>(and IMHO, unless this 'like' system forces players to click on the 'like' button whenever players finish dungeons, it can show a wee bit more elaborate, sophisticated value of each dungeon. Well, of course if we suppose there are enough 'likes' accumulated already.</p><p>So both systems have their pros and cons, and I don't believe this new 'like' system is far inferior method as you guys say it is. We will see, though.)  </p></blockquote><p>It may not be FAR inferior, and does have some usefulness, I still believe it is inferior to the 5 star system.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm... maybe I'm wrong on this topic..maybe some of the people will be actually happy with this change or some would say 'I can live with this, but I miss/preferred the old method better'  </p><p>But it's not like they can't revert to the old way anyway.. personally, I will keep a watchful eye on this and see how this pans out.</p>

Sapperlight
12-23-2011, 12:01 PM
<p>I completely disagree with the decision to go to a binary rating system on the dungeons. </p><p>The fallacy in the system is the belief that an appropriate number of people will "unlike" a dungeon.  The truth of the matter is that if they completed it and got tokens, they are going to "like" it.  That's furthered by the fact that the system defaults to a "like" selection when you exit.  Click, click and out you go.  No thought required.</p><p>A pass/fail system (which is what this is) does not allow for any differentiation between the good, the merely average, and the below average.  It rewards those that are published first and give the most tokens.  There is no consideration for style or effort, because again, you receive only a pass or fail.</p><p>It is not a "self-leveling" system as Rothgar claims.  A newly published dungeon that rivals the Lair of Scale in depth and creativity will have virtually no chance to unseat the "100DM in 20 minutes solo" dungeon that sits atop the leaderboards, because it will never get noticed.  It will sit on page 3, then 4, then 7 of the dungeons because it will be competing with the plethora of other "3 like" dungeons while the token grinder is the first one people see and the first one that they will visit. </p><p>The token grinders I have seen are average at best, but they serve a purpose for those that want to grind.  There is no incentive for anyone else to build a creative dungeon other than a labor of love, because no one else will get to see it with the pass/fail system in place.  That means no tokens for visitors, no ratings, and no reason to keep the system.</p>

Juravael
12-23-2011, 11:11 PM
<p>I am not sure how I feel about the new rating system yet but I will pass along what happened to my dungeons after the change took place.</p><p>I had created one called "Gnoll Invasion!" using the Crushbone layout on the Antonia Bayle server. I spent a few days on this, my 1st dungeon, and put a lot of time and consideration into the flow of the mobs and "fluff" throughout the zone. The idea was you had stumbled upon an old dungeon that orc had taken refuge in and a clan of gnolls were invading them.. just before you entered. Basic but fun I thought. I did a few test runs on the final layout and satisfied with things I published it.</p><p>A few days later I was sitting at 2nd and 3rd Overall for the two rankings and I was going from 2nd and 3rd to 3rd and 4th and back again every day or so earning awards as more people ran it. I even managed to get a couple of number one awards.</p><p>Then the new system went live and I dropped to 9th right away, then to 15th, then 20th, then 40th and I gave up checking after that. I have not recieved any tokens or any "likes" since the change and my dungeon is now way off of the radar in just a couple of days.</p><p>I had been working for about a week on a second dungeon with an undead theme when the change took place and seeing what happened to my first one I have pretty much lost interest in making another one. I published it for 2 days to see what would happen. It was given 1 Like and then dropped off of the radar like my first one. I unpublished it and removed the many items I had crafted over the week for that one.</p><p>It seems that the "X amount tokens solo" dungeons are heading right to the top and the few of those I have run were really bad.</p>

Rainmare
12-26-2011, 01:27 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am not sure how I feel about the new rating system yet but I will pass along what happened to my dungeons after the change took place.</p><p>I had created one called "Gnoll Invasion!" using the Crushbone layout on the Antonia Bayle server. I spent a few days on this, my 1st dungeon, and put a lot of time and consideration into the flow of the mobs and "fluff" throughout the zone. The idea was you had stumbled upon an old dungeon that orc had taken refuge in and a clan of gnolls were invading them.. just before you entered. Basic but fun I thought. I did a few test runs on the final layout and satisfied with things I published it.</p><p>A few days later I was sitting at 2nd and 3rd Overall for the two rankings and I was going from 2nd and 3rd to 3rd and 4th and back again every day or so earning awards as more people ran it. I even managed to get a couple of number one awards.</p><p>Then the new system went live and I dropped to 9th right away, then to 15th, then 20th, then 40th and I gave up checking after that. I have not recieved any tokens or any "likes" since the change and my dungeon is now way off of the radar in just a couple of days.</p><p>I had been working for about a week on a second dungeon with an undead theme when the change took place and seeing what happened to my first one I have pretty much lost interest in making another one. I published it for 2 days to see what would happen. It was given 1 Like and then dropped off of the radar like my first one. I unpublished it and removed the many items I had crafted over the week for that one.</p><p>It seems that the "X amount tokens solo" dungeons are heading right to the top and the few of those I have run were really bad.</p></blockquote><p>This is exactly what happened with both my dungeons. I had a couple friends run them just to test them. they liked them, they gave it good ratings with teh star system. then the new system went in.</p><p>Rothgar's idea of the self correction does not take into acount the idea of 'the path of least resistance'. a 30 minute themed dungeon, that grants 102 tokens, will NOT outdo a dungeon of 1 room, that grants 30 tokens that takes 5 minutes. becuase that 5 minute dungeon, done 6 times, earns more tokens.</p><p>those dungeons get liked. and becuase they are fast and easy, they stay at the top of the list. not becuase they are 'good' dungeons or creative or what have you, but because they are fast and simple</p><p>and it's even worse with housing leaderboards. cause there's nothing to earn for people to even look at homes. really, honestly, the only people that look at your home are your close friends or your guildmates. that's it. yes on the homeshow forum there's people that 'server hop' but it's still a small number...and you have post your home there on the forum (impossible for some people becuase of a bug that crashes you when you try to take a screenshot) and hope people noticed it. if not, well then your back to only your friends and guildies.</p><p>So, with the new system, naturally, the person in the largest guild, or has the most friends, gets the most votes. and there's nothing you can do to compete with them.</p><p>Right now I think this system as is basically kills the housing leaderboards, and cripples any creativity with the dungeon maker for anyone that actively wants a 'HoF' trophy that isn't in a large guild that's willing to run the dungeon/visit the home to earn thier guildmate said trophy.</p>

Reimas
12-26-2011, 03:28 AM
<p><cite>Sapperlight wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I completely disagree with the decision to go to a binary rating system on the dungeons. </p><p>The fallacy in the system is the belief that an appropriate number of people will "unlike" a dungeon.  The truth of the matter is that if they completed it and got tokens, they are going to "like" it.  That's furthered by the fact that the system defaults to a "like" selection when you exit.  Click, click and out you go.  No thought required.</p><p>A pass/fail system (which is what this is) does not allow for any differentiation between the good, the merely average, and the below average.  It rewards those that are published first and give the most tokens.  There is no consideration for style or effort, because again, you receive only a pass or fail.</p><p>It is not a "self-leveling" system as Rothgar claims.  A newly published dungeon that rivals the Lair of Scale in depth and creativity will have virtually no chance to unseat the "100DM in 20 minutes solo" dungeon that sits atop the leaderboards, because it will never get noticed.  It will sit on page 3, then 4, then 7 of the dungeons because it will be competing with the plethora of other "3 like" dungeons while the token grinder is the first one people see and the first one that they will visit. </p><p>The token grinders I have seen are average at best, but they serve a purpose for those that want to grind.  There is no incentive for anyone else to build a creative dungeon other than a labor of love, because no one else will get to see it with the pass/fail system in place.  That means no tokens for visitors, no ratings, and no reason to keep the system.</p></blockquote><p>This says in far more eloquent and understandable terms what is wrong with the current system than I could.</p><p>Don't be dismayed though!  Here's some top tips on how to propel your dungeon into the Hall of Fame.</p><p>1) give it a name that has the words token, farm and solo in it</p><p>2) put the entry and exit portals next to each other</p><p>3) when you arent getting enough grinders giving you good ratings you can pay people to enter and exit, giving a thumbs up on the way out, without ever needing to even run it</p><p>The current system fails on so many levels.  The DM system has the potential to be amazing, with dungeoneers both creating and running other dungeons to earn marks to increase their DM toolbox to make better dungeons.  It was self propogating in a way that was positive and full of growth. </p><p>The current system is driving away the players that had the potential to make it interesting content, and only accomodating those that want to grind tokens for the mount.  Now most DM enhancers and spawners are purchaseable with SC, why bother running the other dungeons at all?  Tokens have only limited value now that SC can be used.</p><p>See the downward spiral?  It is self propogating in a way that is negative and destructive to the system.</p><p>Add a separate category in the listing for token farms, let them be ranked amongst themselves.  This could be as simple as having two parent categories "Themed Dungeons" and "Basic Dungeons" and then having the layouts as subcategories for both.  That way like is competing with like, and it also helps direct the player to the type of dungeon they prefer.</p><p>OR let furniture pieces and decorations add to the difficulty ranking (which in turn affects the tokens awarded upon completion).  This will let creative and original dungeons with less mobs yield the same amount of tokens as farms, giving players more incentive to run them.</p><p>There also needs to be a minimum token value earned BEFORE a dungeon can be liked, disallow the existing system whereby you can zone in and rank a dungeon without even killing anything.</p>

Pixiewrath
12-26-2011, 10:00 AM
<p>Something is seriously wrong here.My dungeon had 27 thumbs for action and 31 or so for style.I took a group into it yesterday and when we were done, it suddenly had changed to 21 vs 26.I got mad and wondered what had happened because it shouldn't be possible to lose ratings by others playing it.(It is very annoying that the thumbs are off by default though as some people think that means thumbs up. The greyed out ones should be replaced by thumbs down.)I started wondering if it was due to % of votes.Either way I checked the leaderboard, and suddenly a dungeon with previously 50-60 likes had gone to 118 likes in a matter of hours. It can't have been % then because it would be impossible to get a 118% rating, and getting 60 different players to run it in a matter of hours???I am confused as to what is happening here...</p>

msgnomer
12-26-2011, 10:57 AM
<p>I'll going to put down a few thoughts as someone who's run through many of the player dungeons, is working on building one, and has published nothing yet.</p><p><strong>Plus side of stars</strong> - more levels for rating.  Potential for indicating whether the dungeon was flawed success or a near miss, in addition to like.</p><p><strong>Minus side of stars</strong> - the ratings are subjective according to each persons criteria.   Seeing as how anything less than 5 brought a players dungeon's potential rating down, it often became a burden or guilt trip for the player.  Out there in RL, sometime along the way, some business person decided getting feedback was good, and now a consumer is faced with phones, polls, emails, and questions for even the briefest, most trivial, amount of interation with a business.  Do I really want to be spending time developing a system to be able to distinguish, 5 stars of creativity from 4?  It often comes down to personal taste or friendship.</p><p><strong>Plus side of likes</strong> - easy for the player.  Personally, I find there are ways to nuance the vote.  For instance, someone who designs a dungeon with a great story and ambiance, but the action is poorly paced or boring, then I like the style and withold the action.    On the other hand, there are "token farms" with little style, but the combat has been well set up to be well paced and/or interesting.  I might like the action and withhold the style like.  A dungeon that has it all gets two likes.  And I imagine others have other criteria, so if someone doesn't like my way of voting, then it's balanced by those who chose to use other ways to vote.  Sometimes I'm just inclined to give it two likes if I wasn't bored and finished the dungeon (like I saw someone suggest).</p><p><strong>Minus side for likes</strong> - less nuanced voting.  It might not give the dungeon maker as much feedback.  Was their action a near miss or a total loss.  Same for style.  Still, from my experience in writing workshops, you can't please all of the people all of the time anyway. </p><p>I'm fine with either way, so I have no stake at this time.  If I'd gotten a dungeon finished and out there, then my perspective would also reflect the maker's viewpoint.  This was from a players viewpoint.</p><p><strong>Things I think that would aid in dungeons not falling off the map, particularly ones a player liked and would like to revisit:</strong></p><p>Ability to favorite dungeons so you can then search on them to revisit one you liked.  Currently I have them on easily misplaced scraps of paper.</p><p>Ability of the dungeon maker to add a sentence of text about their dungeon.  I know the saying is one picture is worth 1K words, but in this case, the pictures usually don't reveal as much as a single line of text might.</p><p>Maybe a pop-up screen at the end to include an optional comment along with the rating.  From a player standpoint, I like this better than returning to stars.  I'd rather be able to give kudos or point out an issue, rather than trying to decide it that merited 3.5 or 4.0 stars.</p><p><strong>Update</strong>:  I found a couple of times I really missed the stars.  I knew I was going to have to either withold a like for a dungeon that had some good points or give it a live when it fell short of the the best dungeons I'd been through.</p>

Reimas
12-26-2011, 07:21 PM
<p><cite>msgnomer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>Things I think that would aid in dungeons not falling off the map, particularly ones a player liked and would like to revisit:</strong></p><p>Ability to favorite dungeons so you can then search on them to revisit one you liked.  Currently I have them on easily misplaced scraps of paper.</p></blockquote><p>This suggestion only helps the individual who has <strong>already</strong> played the dungeon to find it again.  You can like a dungeon as many times as you like, but only one like counts towards the rankings, so the individual being able to find the dungeon again is fine for the player but does nothing to aid the designer's overall exposure towards the community at large and does nothing to prevent the dungeon from  falling off the community's radar.</p><p>The other two suggestions on notations, how would these suggestions be mathematically interpreted by a computer programme to allow for a ranking system?  And if player comments were introduced, would the player need to wade through pages of comments and reviews?</p>

Reimas
12-26-2011, 07:45 PM
<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree slightly.  I think the better dungeons will receive more likes than the mediocre dungeons.   People often complained that the 5-star system was too granular.  What REALLY was the difference between 3 stars and 3.5 stars?  Everyone has different opinions on what those star ratings mean.</p><p>Now its much simpler, you either like it or you don't.  People that are borderline, some will hit like and some won't.  But if the house or dungeon is truly amazing, less people will be borderline which means more likes and higher rankings.</p><p>Using the argument that a large guild will game the system can also be said about the star system except they had TWO ways to game it.  Not only could they put in lots of votes to increase someone's ratings, they could also put in lots of votes to down-rate someone else's dungeon. </p><p>With the new system this is less likely to happen.  Also, the system is self-leveling.  If someone gets a bunch of friends to give them a lot of reviews they will make it to the top of the list.  Once they are at the top, a lot of other people (not their friends) will begin visiting it.  If the house/dungeon doesn't live up to the ratings, it won't stay on top.</p></blockquote><p>Dungeons that do not live up to the ratings are indeed on top, quite convincingly, and the only way they will be removed from the top of the leaderboard is when they topple over into the Hall of Fame. There are dungeons published on day one that got a lot of hits because it was new but had completely dropped off the boards until 4 stars got converted to likes and now they are 3rd <strong>overall</strong>.</p><p>Players will try what's on top first, because it is perceived to be popular.  It was stated in a previous post that this system is a pass/fail.  It's not even that, its a pass/pass.  You hit like on the way out, there's no reason not to.  So in reality the top 3 dungeons in each category get hit regularly and they all get liked, neither really changes in position until the leader topples into the Hall of Fame, bumping #2 into first place, and around we go again.</p><p>It's not self-levelling, its like a pyramid scheme gone wrong.</p>

msgnomer
12-26-2011, 07:48 PM
<p><cite>Reimas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>msgnomer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>Things I think that would aid in dungeons not falling off the map, particularly ones a player liked and would like to revisit:</strong></p><p>Ability to favorite dungeons so you can then search on them to revisit one you liked.  Currently I have them on easily misplaced scraps of paper.</p></blockquote><p>This suggestion only helps the individual who has <strong>already</strong> played the dungeon to find it again.  You can like a dungeon as many times as you like, but only one like counts towards the rankings, so the individual being able to find the dungeon again is fine for the player but does nothing to aid the designer's overall exposure towards the community at large and does nothing to prevent the dungeon from  falling off the community's radar.</p><p>The other two suggestions on notations, how would these suggestions be mathematically interpreted by a computer programme to allow for a ranking system?  And if player comments were introduced, would the player need to wade through pages of comments and reviews?</p></blockquote><p>Since, to my understanding, players likes disappear from the "recent" category after a time, having players be able to easily find a favorite dungeon again and relike it, would help keep it in the recent category.  (as I understand how it works)</p><p>The other one about adding comments would be solely for giving a dungeon maker feedback, and I would think it would be up to them to either enable/disable or to choose whether to read or not.  I don't see how it could be part of the ranking.  I also don't see a player having to wade through pages of comments as I don't see most people taking the time to leave any.  Again though, the dungeon maker doesn't have to pay any attention to it.</p>

Black
12-26-2011, 08:39 PM
<p>I was going OK... then updated my dungeon... slipped away and now hard to get people in after searching through the hoardes</p><p>The guys up top are never going to update their dungeons.... and some of them are bad...</p><p>Cheers</p>

Vasharyn
12-26-2011, 09:36 PM
<p>I do not like the new "Like" system. Most people will just press "like" as a matter of course. There's nothing to differentiate between "yeah it was ok" and "yes it was excellent!", so it purely becomes a game of whose dungeon has been out longest, as the ones nearer the top of the list (with more likes) are then the ones that get visited more often (and so get more likes), compounding the issue.</p><p>The star rating was a better measure of quality, although I understand it can be griefed, which is not good, but this is just as bad a system.</p><p>If you haven't got an award already, you're now not likely to get one.</p>