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View Full Version : Let's be honest about it


Splatterpunk28
09-22-2011, 09:17 AM
<p>I'll agree SoE screwed up with the pvp rule changes.  But let's be serious.  PvP is bad in this game because the community is bad as a whole.  Just to estimate my experience, I'd say 98% of every pvp encounter I've had on Naggy in the past year or so has been people trying to gank me (2 vs 1 odds would be better than what I usually experience), I'm in a pve raid during warfields (pvp rarely occurs) -- or players run from me when I try to engage with even odds (1v1 or 3v3, etc).</p><p>So you have to wonder, why are so many people on a pvp server that don't want to fight?  We could blame soe and say that they designed the rules in such a way that it's in the benefit of a person that only ganks with a group or goes hunting for solo questers with crap gear to not engage outside of those two scenarios, but the truth is ... if you're on a pvp server you should want to fight in every situation.  I never run on my toon.  I fight to the death even if I only get to stand there 3seconds before I die by a ganksquad, but that's not the typical response of the naggy community.</p><p>It's the reasons I just listed why so many people from naggy started going to bgs in the first place.  It's nearly the only opportunity you could find in which the odds are reasonable and people would actually engage in a fight.  That's why the majority of people in the bgs were from Naggy.  But BGs can't be blamed for taking away pvp opportunities anymore now with how dead they are.</p><p><strong>People blame BGs, people blame pvp rules, they blame the gear, etc.  But the truth is, the eq2 community hides in instances to group, to get PL'd, to raid and when given an opportunity to pvp they usually pass on it unless it's a guaranteed easy kill.  That's the truth of it. </strong></p><p>I am confident if they put up an official poll and designed the rules based on most votes, there would be the same amount of people complaining, the same rate of population decline.  People want to talk about old fights in Sinking Sands or the pvp raids that occasionally happened in CL/Ant, etc, but their memories are making things way more pleasant than they actually were -- the gear, the rules, the 'balance' was never good.  The good 'ole days people like to talk about on here are long gone because the majority of people that had standards that made pvp somewhat flourish are gone.  The majority that are left will only gank in impossible ratios in their favor, engage only if it's an easy kill, run in any other scenario and simultaneously rage when people do exactly what they do crying 'leechers', 'hackers' and garbage.</p><p>At this point with the quality of the existing pvp community -- something that has been the same for a very long time, I'd prefer them turning Naggy into a blue server, focus on improving/fixing bgs and just be done with it.  TBH it's the only way I'd consider extending my subscription at this point -- free transfers at least because I'm tired of the allure of pvp action that never occurs.  EQ2 has never had a great pvp community, it was stated before launch and a year into it that it was never designed for pvp and they didn't intend on putting pvp options in so kudos for their attempt, but it's a joke and most of the people still playing this game expecting it to improve pvp are in denial of where the real problems lie.</p>

Dark Messenger
09-22-2011, 10:12 AM
<p>thats exactly the problem, the players, there is absolutely no progression in PVP, 90% of the people on nagafen are trying lvl/farmtokens/run to max the char BEFORE they are beginning to pvping and the reason is not to have good fights, but to oneshot people likethemselves who runs away from fight because they think they have to max everything out before pvping.</p><p>the conclusion of this mentality is there is absolute NO pvp in low/mid gear, there is only max aa PVPgear pvp atm. the reason why it is so is, because of all the possibility to max out everything WITHOUT doing anything, like the situation in BGs, Warfields and the seperate stats on PVP items, PVE items are doing nothing anymore and you cannot pvp with your pve items, therefore most people think they have no chance.</p><p>PVP server should be change like it was before, no extra pvp gear, warfields which are really good considered how to make them. deactive bg on pvp server. so the most people who are like that ive mentioned above go quit and people who wanna pvp come back.</p>

Splatterpunk28
09-22-2011, 10:23 AM
<p>I would agree with your analysis, but it assumes that once people get maxed they engage -- the majority still will not unless it's an <em>assured easy kill</em>.  That means, it's not bgs and wfs making tokens/faction easier to come by, it's not the rules or the gear people do or do not have -- it's the players.  Once you max your toon out, getting ganked along the way or hiding in instances farming tokens/faction on other toons to twink it out it doesn't matter, you can either join a ganksquad and blow people up so fast they die before they can run or you can quit, transfer, or start a new toon that will end up with the same options.  I would say fame may factor in but titles are very rare and I only know of few that care about fame at all, those tend to be the ones with the worst reputations for ganking and running, but doesn't account for the reasoning with everyone else.  Disabling bgs, changing rules or removing pvp gear entirely wouldn't change the underlying issue.</p><p>I have toons in 30s, 50s, 70s and 90 and that's my experience across the board.  I've literally changed my name, exiled and appearance on toons because I get tired of them running, hoping they'll engage because they don't recognize my name.  I've locked toons at unconventional levels, I'll go engage yellow/orange con players and it just doesn't matter anymore.  And tbh if they can't kill you nearly immediately, they often will try to run away if you were lucky enough to fool them into thinking you'd be an easy kill.  The mentality of the majority of players is so messed up now, they will only engage if they outnumber you or if you're green or in a different tier than them.  SoE can't fix that.  The population is too degraded in quanitity and quality to even hope for a significant improvement.</p>

Kimber
09-22-2011, 11:23 AM
<p>Fame...........</p><p>That is the problem that and the fact that there is risk involved.  No risk in BG's no fame loss no chance to drop anything. </p><p>Yes the runners still run and ran when the rules were no fame loss.  Hell I will admit I will run from a gank squad just to keep them from getting an easy update I want them to work for it if they are going to get it.</p><p>I will stand and fight though if its even odds and will give chase to a runner that runs from even odds but I will not chase them very far cause they tend to run to a group waiting for you so they can all get the update.  No I do not want a no risk type of PvP.  If I am dumb enough to go out in an open zone with 50 plat on me and get killed I deserve to loose some of it.  People just need to learn that its just a game and while yes it is nice to have a title it is not the end all be all thing.  As things stand right now other than a few people on the server that have titles that I see most prolly do not deserve what they have because they only fight as described above and while yes that is the smart way to do it if all you want is fame.  It does not earn you the respect of the other players on the other side if you have a title.  I know what players will be a hard fight and which ones will be easy some of the hard ones do not have titles some of them do.  Some of the easyones have them also.  As far as I can tell the only thing that really matters as far as PvP is a good reputation.  Giving a good stand up fight against even odds or not so even odds.  Running from a gank squad my get you ribbed some but not as bad as running from a 1 v 1. </p><p>just my 2cp</p>

Sprin
09-22-2011, 01:51 PM
<p>Its been like that since day 1... people always have ran, people have always evac'd, people have always ganked, people have always griefed, people have always baited... its just the nature of PVP...</p><p>what HASN"T always been true is the ability for those people to exploit things designed for ease of PVE to their advantage in PVP or to avoid PVP altogether... flying mounts / jumping mounts / instant travel / guild halls / raid flags ets</p><p>a HUGE part of the openworld PVP USED to be traveling... I remember sitting in the Spire in Antonica waiting for upwards of 5 mintues and just KNOWING there would be someone or some group thats going to come along as the timer hit 10 seconds to portal and either kill me or engage me so I couldnt travel... then I'd have to wait another 5 minutes, but that was part of the fun...</p><p>Huge batles at the spire portals, at the docks in certain places, at the travel hubs, on and off birds and cloud platforms... now its just all instant travel.</p><p>Hell even with the birds and clouds... allthe clouds are instant travel, all the birds and other platforms that aren't are able to be take anywhere from any given point..</p><p>That was some of the "skill" involved in old days of PVP knowing where someone was going based on the path of the server mount they were taking in a zone... and then trying to get to them and fight, and hope they weren't leading you to a huge raid force once you landed... etc etc etc..</p><p>Traveling created PVP... that is gone now... raid flags, 60 sec immunity, zone wide zone ins, call of vet, world bells, no wait spires, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc</p><p>The  mounts... well, there is not one person that can say with a straight face that 130 run speed on ground and flying / jumping mounts destroyed pvp even further... if they did, they 'd be lying anyways...</p><p>If someone doesnt wanna fight, they dont have to anymore... running is no longer a "skill" its just given to you...</p><p>If you were faced with an opponent with snare or some root or something, you either stayed and fought and died, or you tried to run away, but died trying... now you just hit the space bar and run off at 130+ speed... even if they snag you with 75 speed snares, you are still running at 65 away from their 0....</p><p>You see, its not the players, the players have been the same throughout time, its the craptastic updates that SOE has implemented with ZERO thought into how it would negatively impacts PVP... and then when their players tell them how it negatively impacts PVP, they ignore them completely and implement more crapola...</p>

Balrok
09-22-2011, 02:25 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its been like that since day 1... people always have ran, people have always evac'd, people have always ganked, people have always griefed, people have always baited... its just the nature of PVP...</p></blockquote><p>This ^</p><p>It's called open world PvP and there is no other MMO on the market that offers a better version imho.   MMO's are all about protecting the PvE content now and providing PvP options in controlled settings (Battlegrounds).  That's fine... but do not suggest changing Nagafen into something most of us don't want.  If you desire PvE rule set, transfer. </p><p>We are late into an expansion... yes travel promotes PvP, but above all else... new content = open world PvP.  The first month of an expansion pack is tons of open world pvp fun.  How they ignored PvP when DoV was released is an embarrassment.  They absolutely ruined the best moment on a PvP server with DoV.  Complete fail on their part, but I'm fairly certain that's how they're going to do it going forward. </p><p>Please keep in mind that 90% of the forum posts are from ragers and haters.  I've fallen into that group from time to time as well.  BUT, there IS open world PvP if you want it.  During the us daytime, Warfields are actually doing well very well pop wise.  Most WF's I'm in a x2 vs x3 fight for 45 minutes.  Then it dies for an hour... but this is cause we're playing on OLD content!</p>

Proud_Silence
09-22-2011, 02:55 PM
<p>I see 2 major reasons why we are acting the way we are in pvp.</p><p>1. Fame. Massively flawed system, encouraging people to run in stacked groups, hunt weak targets and avoid "fair" fights. Because face it. 1 death is equal in fame to 10 solo kills. This is simply not reasonable. The moment i get Hunter back, i start cherry picking fights. There's a bunch of players that excel at luring you into combat, or getting you to engage, then pop immunities and wait for the rest of their group to come swooping down from the skies or zone in.</p><p>I will run away 10 x before i walk into a trap like that. Unfortunately, It's near impossible for me to pvp solo these days (being from FP), because the moment i engage i have maybe 30 seconds tops to kill my target, otherwise the Q zerg will come running/flying/gliding. Also getting sick of griffons catching up with me when i fly at 150% speed for 30 seconds and suddenly the guy following me jumps off his griff and engages me (?)</p><p>2. No rewards. My toon is fully pvp geared, completed the Armor set months ago, and frankly, there's no incentive to pvp, there's NOTHING worth buying with tokens. SoE doesn't care AT ALL about pvp, we still have to use SF jewelry and weapons, what kind of joke is that ? Imagine Velious coming out and you'd have to go farm SF raid zones for half of your gear still !?</p><p>So anytime i go out to pvp, it's just "for the fun of it", but that gets old pretty fast. Be honest to yourself, would you go take down raid targets if you'd get NOTHING out of it ?</p><p>When i go pvp, 4 out of 5 times i end up running away because i'm not a suicidal fool that engages when the odds are massively in favor of the opposing force. I engage anyone 1 vs 1 tho but it only takes so many ganks until you start to remember which players are playing a foul game.</p>

Twinbladed
09-22-2011, 11:04 PM
<p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I see 2 major reasons why we are acting the way we are in pvp.</p><p>1. Fame. Massively flawed system, encouraging people to run in stacked groups, hunt weak targets and avoid "fair" fights. Because face it. 1 death is equal in fame to 10 solo kills. This is simply not reasonable. The moment i get Hunter back, i start cherry picking fights. There's a bunch of players that excel at luring you into combat, or getting you to engage, then pop immunities and wait for the rest of their group to come swooping down from the skies or zone in.</p><p>I will run away 10 x before i walk into a trap like that. Unfortunately, It's near impossible for me to pvp solo these days (being from FP), because the moment i engage i have maybe 30 seconds tops to kill my target, otherwise the Q zerg will come running/flying/gliding. Also getting sick of griffons catching up with me when i fly at 150% speed for 30 seconds and suddenly the guy following me jumps off his griff and engages me (?)</p><p>2. No rewards. My toon is fully pvp geared, completed the Armor set months ago, and frankly, there's no incentive to pvp, there's NOTHING worth buying with tokens. SoE doesn't care AT ALL about pvp, we still have to use SF jewelry and weapons, what kind of joke is that ? Imagine Velious coming out and you'd have to go farm SF raid zones for half of your gear still !?</p><p>So anytime i go out to pvp, it's just "for the fun of it", but that gets old pretty fast. Be honest to yourself, would you go take down raid targets if you'd get NOTHING out of it ?</p><p>When i go pvp, 4 out of 5 times i end up running away because i'm not a suicidal fool that engages when the odds are massively in favor of the opposing force. I engage anyone 1 vs 1 tho but it only takes so many ganks until you start to remember which players are playing a foul game.</p></blockquote><p><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Ok I'm not knocking what you said, but why is it EVERYONE has to bring titles as I'm not going to fight factor, title is not a reward, when I gain a title, I do not receive anything but a target on my head, I don't think of that as a reward, having a title is worse than not having one. Seriously, you get put on a recent list people don't really care to jump you as much, you get a title your get followed around, an the player base does $uck just as bad as the mechanics, I have ran across so many fights that when you engage an get jumped or what not, these people actually think there was some kind of skill invovled. The day when people finally after all these years learn there title has 0 to do with how good they actually are in pvp I bet it would be a massive change in play. Real players know who is who, the other part of the factor is the lack confidence in the players themself in order to do the dumb things they do. I agree ganking,evac, running,and all of that has always been apart of the game, but there used to be more fighters than runners, now there is more runners than fighters. It is player based, people stay on birds, it is player based people can't roll witouth a group, it is player based people don't know how to use the mechanics in front of them. I see so many people who don't run totems, don't use pots, don't have a gear switch macro, can not read buff's, have zero clue as to how to set up there own aa's, nor can seem to find productive gear.... first thing they do, complain about it. Preditor's are op, Brawler's are op, Rogue's are op........get out of here. Yeah some classes got it made easier, but if this game is so off balance, how do guys like exur actually get kills, bboom don't seem to have a issue, dilan the dirge don't have a issue, sabar still can kill people. This game have turned from free world burn out, to cuddle time with the guildies.  </p>

Splatterpunk28
09-23-2011, 02:22 AM
<p>So basically, the reasons people give for not finding pvp (or only runners/ganksquads) is that SoE gave more opportunities to avoid pvp and they don't incentivise players enough to engage in pvp.  Let's be real, the average player in eq2 is in their 30s...they aren't 13 year olds.  If you're on a pvp server, you should want a challenging fight.</p><p>Like I said initially, <span ><strong>People blame BGs, people blame pvp rules, they blame the gear, etc.  But the truth is, the eq2 community hides in instances to group, to get PL'd, to raid and when given an opportunity to pvp they usually pass on it unless it's a guaranteed easy kill.  That's the truth of it. </strong></span></p><p>I already know the excuses and the reasoning behind it because I've witnessed it nonstop for a very long time.  It's honestly not much different than the people in bgs that run and hide with the relic -- in order to 'win' the battle, they literally think the best strategy is to 'not fight'. Notice again it's typically people that are already maxed out that do this and has nothing to do with the tokens or faction.  It's profoundly dumb and defeats the whole purpose of playing. </p><p><span >The devs don't listen to the community and the community that remains is just too mentally challenged to work around what they've been given to make it a pleasant experience for anyone else.  </span><span >You have a point about a new expansion being around the corner, and maybe there will be a slight boost in population for a month or so, maybe there will be a little bit of a pvp boost too if people decide to quest in 'open world', but that's optimistic and it's not going to be enough to make a difference.  </span></p><p><span >I'd much prefer a free transfer to a blue server where I know I won't get pvp, possibly get an occasional bg, than be constantly tantalized by something that just doesn't exist in this game anymore.   Again though, it's a player problem as much as a dev problem -- and SoE cannot and will not fix that.</span></p><p><span ></span></p>

Sprin
09-23-2011, 02:37 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> I agree ganking,evac, running,and all of that has always been apart of the game, but there used to be more fighters than runners, now there is more runners than fighters.</p></blockquote><p>See I dont think there is any more then there was a long time ago, the difference is the means of getting away makes it a LOT easier to succeed at getting away...</p><p>The "oh crud im gonna die if I don't turn around and fight" mentality is gone now because everyone pretty much has a 100% chance of getting away... Whereas before they tried to run but couldnt because mounts were limited and run speed was limited...  Now there is no need for the "ok, i either die trying to run away or I turn around and maybe I will win" thought, because you can get away 99.999999999999% of the time with ease...</p><p>There are still the same number of runners, its just they are more successfull now with the tools given to them by SOE.</p><p>Fame is and always will be only important to very few people and those people's titles have never and WILL never reflect anything to do with their "skill" or how "good" they are at PVP... it reflects 100% of how picky they are at when they hit their attack button and engage themself...  I'm not knocking those who have titles or like titles but I am telling you with 100% certainty it reflects 0 PVP skill...  people with and without titles can be equally good or equally as bad at the game... its just a matter of who likes their title... and wants to work hard at keeping it...</p><p>And I agree... fame now is a joke, 10:1 kill to death ratio required to maintain even Hunter title makes it just silly to try and keep a title, it truely means the people with high titles don't actually PVP.... they pick off targets they know with 100% certainty they have no chance at dieing to, either by use of large overwhelming numbers against them, questing / PVE'ng targets with no chance at survival, or running / evac'ing / and calling in reinforcements for every little thing that may cause them a smidgen of concern about dying...</p><p>100% of the people with high titles never leave their guild hall without a fully stacked group so they are 100% certain they wont lose their title... Its just how it is...</p>

Azol
09-23-2011, 11:22 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>100% of the people with high titles never leave their guild hall without a fully stacked group so they are 100% certain they wont lose their title... Its just how it is...</p></blockquote><p>Let's put it this way: high-titled players are hard to kill (because so-and-so-and-so, but it does not matter tbh) and they are 100% certain they won't die in PVP battle. Don't you think these players deserved to have a high title? Maybe you can imagine a real-life General (of the Army) to walk alone on the warfield just to be randomly killed with the first bullet that chances to fly by his head? </p><p>Major LOL.</p>

Magnis
09-23-2011, 11:46 AM
<p>as hard as it may be, getting rid of any sort of instant travel and instant porting to a zone (like mentioned above)would greatly help our pvp situation. I wouldn't fix everything but it would be a huge step in the right direction. After that, something must be done about flying/gliding mounts, every mount i have, from old TSO rhino have HUGE run speeds. They need to lose their speed/glide down when hit in combat (notice I dint say be put in combat)</p><p>But these are luxuries nagafen needs to let go of.  Or stuff it down our throats and see what happens (like soo many things they do).  After that we can deal with gear/mechanics/BGs.</p>

Twinbladed
09-23-2011, 05:19 PM
<p>Flying mounts don't have to go away, I don't see how hard it would be to add a height restriction to zones, if someone is to fly to far up give them immunity timer, obviously they want one anyways lol. It would seriously kill the whole idea of i'm not fighting until I can 100% win. Increase snare amounts when a person is on a mount, if they can slow you down when you hit someone, I'm positive they can add that to the game.Would they do it, highly don't think so...just and idea though, I dunno someone should put a poll up on idea's, it helped before. SOE plays like the players do, they refuse to fix what is there fault. If it were up to me you would have a 10 second count down when zoning in, 60 seconds on revive, 10 seconds on a evac, 0 flying/leaping mounts, no run speed past 85%, bard would be the only class who can have a slight faster run speed, balance out the pve gear, use it for pvp, so you don't feel like the next person with the gear and you can fight mobs, make only bg gear for bg's, and pvp server gear only for pvp servers, merge vox with naggy, remove procs off gear from working in pvp including non-pvp adorns, remove flurry,ma,and spell da, make crit bonus and potency a stat that is not used in pvp........That's is why It's not up to me tho lol</p>