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Maergoth
08-15-2011, 09:06 AM
<p>The paladin class currently has <span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">3</span> </span><span style="color: #ffff00;">2</span> major flaws. Below are the issues and suggested fixes either to AAs or otherwise. Our class focuses are also the worst of any class, without a single desireable one. That would be a good place to start.<span style="color: #888888;"><strong></strong></span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #00ffff;">Updated in Blue 8/17/12 </span></strong></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-large; color: #00ff00;">√</span><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><span style="color: #008000;"><strong><span style="color: #00ff00;"> </span></strong></span></span><span style="color: #00ff00;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>1. Spike Damage / One Shots</strong></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #888888;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>Shadowknights have many more saves they can use, as well as two more DI triggers. They can preserve those DI triggers much easier by rotating saves, sacrificing one trigger, saves come back up, sacrifice another trigger, saves again, final trigger, DI, saves, DI.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #888888;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong> This pattern is similar for other classes. Guardians have stoneskins to prevent these absolutely massive frontal AOEs. Brawlers have more saves than I can even count. </strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #888888;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>Paladin saves are so weak we have to use multiple saves at once, AND only have one DI trigger. Having one less save translates to us dying three rounds of AOES earlier. Not just one round earlier. We have zero rotation potential, and none of our heals fix thix problem at all.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #888888;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>The solution: Synergize with our passive hategain and change Devout Sacrament into a channeled 5s duration stoneskin. It can completely stun us for all I care, opposed to the similar "Superior Guard". We need an actual stoneskin on a reasonable recast to even remotely scratch the survivability requirements of the expansion. Warriors are monsters of physical damage tanking, there's no reason Crusaders can't have some advantage versus these ridiculous elemental, noxious, and arcane AoEs. Put magic damage reduction on our defensive stance or something instead of arch heal. </strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #888888;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>Equally useful, but for crusaders in general, would be to allow our Int line reflect to be reuse modifiable. It's currently hard locked at 3 minutes flat. AoEs are every 45 seconds or so on average, meaning it's up every 4 sets of AOES or so. Change the heal potency end line to reuse reduction down to a minute and thirty seconds.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #808080;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>Divine Aura should be changed to damage reduction, or work on the upper 50% of damage instead of only the lower 50%. Either way, the recast needs to be bumped down. Our ward is underpowered as ever, and needs to be higher value. Lower recast WILL NOT even touch this problem, just double or triple the amount and fix the AA for it.</strong></span></span><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><span style="color: #008000;"><strong></strong></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #888888;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>This catagory has been addressed and the LC changes might suffice. We'll have to see in practice. Still holding out for a useful, unique PALADIN save. </strong></span></span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #00ffff;"><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #888888;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">.UPDATE. LC is not enough. Doing the hardest of hardmode content, there is still too much risk of death without a shaman. Yes, tanks should have shamans. Tanks should have a lot of things. We don't, so we don't get primary tank groups, and have to make due with just one priest a lot of the time. Our only niche currently is in the mage group.  We should have at least one reliable save in case, god forbid, we have to do something. </span></span></span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">This entire category has been taken care of wonderfully. Devout Sacrament getting damage reduction is unbelievably important. The gains in HP have returned Divine Aura to usefulness, and Stonewall having Strikethrough Immunity allows 8 seconds on the minute where we can breathe for the most part.</span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>2. Lack of Spike Aggro and Versatility</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #993300;"><strong>This becomes less of an issue if the above gets dealt with. Currently, our hate generation is hinged solidly on amends. This used to be fine, but now everyone is capping hate transfers. Where amends gave us the ability to control the direction of our hate generation, now we absolutely have to put it on the highest dps in the group and have them beating on the same target as everyone else. Sigil of Heroism is a big purple "generate slightly more aggro than normal" button. Our versatility is practically gone, and should that passive transfer hate not go as planned, we're in big trouble.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #993300;"><strong>Guardians have reinforcement to do exactly what they need it to. Brawlers have all kinds of unique hate manipulation tools. Our holy ground is a DPS buff that I can't use at will, and it's an aggro tool that doesn't get aggro at will. It's mediocre all around, and while it needed nerfed from the 24 positions it used to be, it's misplaced. Without a solid, unique aggro snap, we can't recover from memwipes or deaths at all. They are the absolute bane of our existence.  Our only option is to stack up on so much virulent ire procs that we can't actually use our AOEs or DPS WITHOUT getting aggro. inb4 put it on your bow. You try that, let me know how well it works. </strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;"><strong>Monks get something that I believe is the right idea. Holy ground shouldn't have a position itself, so we can use it for DPS without risk. It should however grant our taunts positional increases for the duration. Additionally, uncap hate transfer and we'll be able to work with that at least. This problem has a million solutions. We need positionals, and unique versatility. That's that.</strong></span></p><p>-The Problem With Transfers-</p><p>People understand how transfers work individually, but collectively it becomes a little foggy. Here's some clarification before "BUT YOU HAVE AMENDS". Transfer is capped at 50%.</p><p> Sigil currently bypasses the transfer cap. The problem is, if you're getting transfers from a swashy who is top 3 on the parse, or an assassin topping it, you really don't need more sustained hate.</p><p>The math alone prohibits it. Top that off with coercer, wizard, maybe even summoner transfer.. Amends would  be overkill.</p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></strong></p><p><span style="font-size: large;"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">IF IT STACKED. </span></strong></span></p><p>Which it does not. So not only is it not necessary, it's not even applicable in most situations. It throttles based on the total amount of incoming hate transfers. Using easy numbers, if you're getting three transfers, one for 50 (amends), and two for 25 (Transfers), Your amends target would then be transferring 25%, and your two transfers 12.5%.</p><p>Sigil of Heroism in the mage group is a powerful tool. It will generate a substantial amount of threat in a short period of time. On a non memwiping mob, you'll go from 80 to 100 versus another tank in around five to ten seconds, pending group setup. That's in a standard situation, assuming no further variables are introduced.</p><p>Unfortunately, to understand the vast difference between sustained hate and snap aggro, sigil will ALSO get you from 0 to over 50 in 5-10 seconds. Problem? Yeah. Because even if we had the luxury of waiting 10 seconds to get a mob back, we'd still have to use two snaps on it.</p><p>This is bypassing the transfer cap at 36% per person in the group, including pets.</p><p>However, when sigil is up, it is the only transfer allowed to function. So how much are we really gaining? Referring back to my amends example, you're going from 25% on your amends target and 12.5% from both transfers, to 36% from everyone.</p><p>36% from everyone (maybe 2 actually useful targets), versus any other tank (30% from swashy/20-ish from assassin?) and 11% Coercer transfer. Gee, math puts that at.. close to or beyond 36%, and from guaranteed high hate targets.</p><p>If it doesn't make sense, it's because IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.</p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Update: Having cleared Plane of War and experienced all the zones and fights from this content pack, I can safely comment on this section again. While our class wasn't given any more tools to deal with memwipes, the content has generally shifted towards a 4 tank setup anyway. Still, there are times when, through no fault of my own, the mobs will simply "stick" to the main tank. It's been acknowledged as a bug since Drunder or earlier, but it's not one that will be fixed any time soon. Good thing we keep an SK around.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;"> <strong>I feel this problem will reoccur in the future, however, so I will say it again: Paladins need a better snap. </strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>3. Non-Tanking Utility / DPS</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #993300;"><strong>Frankly, every single class in the game is getting more and more individually useful. Summoners got their big DPS boost, Shadowknights still have their bloodletters to lean on, Guardians are rivaling brawlers in the strength and number of their temps and saves. Oh, and Brawlers have combat mastery which instantly lands them in the scout group.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #993300;"><strong>Paladins, however, have gotten less useful.<span style="color: #808080;"> <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">They have made our heals better since the last time this was all discussed. However, with the massive boost to HP pool since then, they have fallen back into place.</span></span> We don't need higher values, we need unique tools. The whole problem with the Paladin class is the lack of uniqueness. Our 10 second raid wide buff lost its lustre as being worthy of jcap. Sure, it still helps, but 10 potency and crit bonus is much less noticeable with the huge influx of those stats on every piece of gear.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #993300;"><strong>We aren't particularly useful. We have no contributions to the raid that anyone cares about. Nothing worth attaching a macro for. Nothing that is missed when we're playing a different game instead of raiding as a mediocre class. Our DPS is bottom of the barrel, despite the workarounds such as bowing which are getting squashed. </strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #888888;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>Lay hands is an ongoing joke, not because it's useless.  Rather, because saving a random scout or mage who is forced to tank following a one-shot paladin and inability to regain control of the mob is the most useful thing the paladin has done all raid. </strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;"><strong>We need utility. We don't need DPS. I'm going to catch flak for this, but I don't care. To be wanted in a raid is a great thing. Our mythical clicky is absolutely worthless. Convert it into the mage equivalent of Combat Mastery so we can at least belong in a group. I like that idea, heard it in Paladin chat. Have it apply to priests too, so it can act as a pseudo save when things get dicey. We need group based utility, and an over-all rehashing of our current abilities. The potency/crit bonus has to be fixed to scale like EVERY OTHER EQUIVALENT ENDLINE. <span style="color: #808080;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Crusader's Faith giving hit rate bonuses is virtually worthless. Granting huge amount of weapon/casting skills would be more useful.</span> <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Raid hit rates are close to 100%</span></span>.  Our DPS can stay the same as long as the hate issues, utility and survivability issues above are addressed.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium; color: #008000;"><strong>Additionally, adding stoneskin triggers to our rez AA or adornment would be wonderful. The bonus range and cast time reduction is completely defeated by the fact that we have to move so they don't die instantly to a frontal.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #808080;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong>CAST SPEED</strong>, The COMPLETE removal of cast speed from fighter gear is asinine. Seriously. SERIOUSLY. WHY? I don't even need to go into this, it's blatantly dumb. I'm using my old SF boots almost full time because they have 12 cast speed. </span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium; color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #808080;"><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>SHIELDS</strong>, primarily are the culprit. We've been hailed as shield oriented tanks, hence our block chance. However, as shields upgrade, they only gain block chance, not protection. This means our slight advantage is diminished less and less as other tanks get more and more along with us. If we had 100 shield effectiveness, and someone else has 50, our advantage is reduced by half by us getting to 150 and other tanks being at 100.</span></span> </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Update: A few changes in the past couple months make this category a little bit better. We still have a ton of useless AAs and class focuses, but we're headed in the right direction. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Reforging allows us to reach a high enough level of cast speed that our AAs are finally not set in stone. It's possible to spec out of strength line for the first time since AAs came out, should one choose to do so. That is amazing. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Shield rebalancing shifts things properly in the right direction. The high end shields have gained significant amounts of protection, which is absolutely necessary. Additionally, the usefulness of protection has been brought down marginally by the "When avoiding a hit" damage proc. This fits in nicely for us at this point in time.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Heals scale properly now, and have several buffs attached to them. While minor, these buffs actually give us a reason to cast our heals.. which might be hit and miss, but definitely worth doing.</span></p><p><strong>I'm not saying our class is currently incapable. I'm definitely not saying we can't perform in specific situations. However, every other class is getting boosted. We are maintaining mediocrity because our abilities all scale poorly with itemization and their uniqueness is being distributed to other classes.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ffffff;">WE NEED <span style="text-decoration: underline;">UNIQUENESS</span>. We need to be desireable, and we need to excel at SOMETHING.</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-large;">TL;DR</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">We have the most survivability out of any class in the game, besides maybe Guardians. They pull ahead with the useful utility stuff, which more than makes up for it.</span></p><p> <span style="color: #ff6600;">Our utility is the worst out of all the tanks still, but our heals are more useful than ever. Our DPS is pretty bad (not considering recklessness for obvious reasons), but that's alright</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Besides that.. we're still really weak in the snap department. Thankfully, raid content has shifted slightly away from the memwiping craziness that was Drunder. </span></p><p>I happen to be a self-proclaimed authority on the class in general, and have enough of a grasp on current end-game raiding and the game around me to know that these issues do exist and need to be addressed.  Preferrably before we become the next ranger or berserker. <span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #888888;">Oh, and fix berserkers too.</span></p><p><a href="http://www.livestream.com/maer">Maercast Game Streaming  (Recordings of all our raid kills.. NSFW)</a></p>

644446592
08-15-2011, 09:29 AM
<p><span ><span style="color: #993300;"><strong><span>Shadowknights have many more saves they can use, as well as two more DI triggers. They can preserve those DI triggers much easier by rotating saves, sacrificing one trigger, saves come back up, sacrifice another trigger, saves again, final trigger, DI, saves, DI.</span></strong></span></span></p><p>Lol? What is this saves are? Bloodletter can't cast in combat and 2 triggers going out easily. Final from EoF for one hit that more then 10% of you HP it's lol.</p><p>Go and learn SK class before posting.</p><p>Put attention on monks. Strikethrow and a lot of dead saves witch they can cast in combat. It's really overpowered in now game mechanics state.</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 01:01 PM
<p><cite>64444659213 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="color: #993300;"><strong><span>Shadowknights have many more saves they can use, as well as two more DI triggers. They can preserve those DI triggers much easier by rotating saves, sacrificing one trigger, saves come back up, sacrifice another trigger, saves again, final trigger, DI, saves, DI.</span></strong></span></span></p><p>Lol? What is this saves are? Bloodletter can't cast in combat and 2 triggers going out easily. Final from EoF for one hit that more then 10% of you HP it's lol.</p><p>Go and learn SK class before posting.</p><p>Put attention on monks. Strikethrow and a lot of dead saves witch they can cast in combat. It's really overpowered in now game mechanics state.</p></blockquote><p>he is talking about stoneskins and the like</p>

Talathion
08-15-2011, 01:03 PM
<p>Brawlers are the ones who reduce physical damage the most. :/</p>

Boli32
08-15-2011, 01:07 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Brawlers are the ones who reduce physical damage the most. :/</p></blockquote><p>WRONG!</p><p>They just survive it the best (tenacity + stoneskins + strikethrough immunity); the actual damage hits they take is similar or MORE than plate tanks.</p>

Talathion
08-15-2011, 01:09 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Brawlers are the ones who reduce physical damage the most. :/</p></blockquote><p>WRONG!</p><p>They just survive it the best (tenacity + stoneskins + strikethrough immunity); the actual damage hits they take is similar or MORE than plate tanks.</p></blockquote><p>Until you get 260 AA's and get the "When target takes any damage, reduces all damage by 30% for 3 Seconds Every 10 Seconds", its up almost every time they are hit because of they're (overpowered) avoidance.</p><p>Also Brawlers have a passive 10% Physical Damage Reduction from Mythical and /gasp Percent based heals!</p>

Dark_fairy
08-15-2011, 02:03 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Brawlers are the ones who reduce physical damage the most. :/</p></blockquote><p>WRONG!</p><p>They just survive it the best (tenacity + stoneskins + strikethrough immunity); the actual damage hits they take is similar or MORE than plate tanks.</p></blockquote><p>Until you get 260 AA's and get the "When target takes any damage, reduces all damage by 30% for 3 Seconds Every 10 Seconds", its up almost every time they are hit because of they're (overpowered) avoidance.</p><p>Also Brawlers have a passive 10% Physical Damage Reduction from Mythical and /gasp Percent based heals!</p></blockquote><p>Bruisers have that Monks dont. the reduction of 30% for 2 seconds is meant and works well for the multi attks a mob does. It was put in place because brawlers got one shot with multi attacks and still would if not for that help. Its funny half of the tanks keep saying brawlers are OP when well really they are not.</p><p>The issue is content design has made anyone with a stoneskin or any kind of way of not being one shot be seen as OP. Thats it, if content was designed diffrent you would see SK tanking everything again and paly's would do fine. I am a paly OT by the way.</p><p>Tanks really are fne atm, zerkers need a little more hate and paly need a little more dps. Kinda like SK bump that was just given, not alot but enough. Then designers need to fix content, so that it does not one shot making stoneskins maditory and lighten up on the aggro dropping. Those items dont make a fight more of a challenge only more annoying and will make people complain that X class that has a rescue is OP even tho thier class has tons of stuff. So please learn what the problem really is instead of following the mob going nerf nerf nerf op op op lol</p>

Boli32
08-15-2011, 02:15 PM
<p><cite>Dark_fairy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Brawlers are the ones who reduce physical damage the most. :/</p></blockquote><p>WRONG!</p><p>They just survive it the best (tenacity + stoneskins + strikethrough immunity); the actual damage hits they take is similar or MORE than plate tanks.</p></blockquote><p>Until you get 260 AA's and get the "When target takes any damage, reduces all damage by 30% for 3 Seconds Every 10 Seconds", its up almost every time they are hit because of they're (overpowered) avoidance.</p><p>Also Brawlers have a passive 10% Physical Damage Reduction from Mythical and /gasp Percent based heals!</p></blockquote><p>Bruisers have that Monks dont. the reduction of 30% for 2 seconds is meant and works well for the multi attks a mob does. It was put in place because brawlers got one shot with multi attacks and still would if not for that help. Its funny half of the tanks keep saying brawlers are OP when well really they are not.</p><p>The issue is content design has made anyone with a stoneskin or any kind of way of not being one shot be seen as OP. Thats it, if content was designed diffrent you would see SK tanking everything again and paly's would do fine. I am a paly OT by the way.</p><p>Tanks really are fne atm, zerkers need a little more hate and paly need a little more dps. Kinda like SK bump that was just given, not alot but enough. Then designers need to fix content, so that it does not one shot making stoneskins maditory and lighten up on the aggro dropping. Those items dont make a fight more of a challenge only more annoying and will make people complain that X class that has a rescue is OP even tho thier class has tons of stuff. So please learn what the problem really is instead of following the mob going nerf nerf nerf op op op lol</p></blockquote><p>I may have clarified that but tanks are *not* fine right now... currently brawlers have the same survibility of guards.. so I suppose that's balanced.... just crusaders and zerkers (pre LU61) are not.</p><p>oh and plate tanks die from multi attack too; more than anyone cares to admit.</p><p>Back on topic Paaldins are the *only* class without a stoneskin; and whilst we may have the "most ubbah transfers in the world" this is next to useless on every mob which memwipes/blurs (read: most of them) the lack of positions mean we are at the bottom of the pecking order for an OT job and quite frankly don't have the survibility for a MT.</p><p>Coming from a class which is meant to be the second/joint most defensive tank this is quite frankly broken</p>

Yimway
08-15-2011, 02:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I may have clarified that but tanks are *not* fine right now... currently brawlers have the same survibility of guards.. </p></blockquote><p>That would only be balanced if they were putting out the same hate/dps while doing so.</p><p>Brawlers are slightly broken where they are now, not enough sacraficed for what is gained.  Crusaders are slightly more broken.</p><p>Crusaders need a little more in damage avoidance, brawlers need a bit less or more severe offensive penalties to adjust what they have.</p><p>Fighters aren't horribly far apart as they are now, but there is need for some tweaking.</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 02:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I may have clarified that but tanks are *not* fine right now... currently brawlers have the same survibility of guards.. </p></blockquote><p>That would only be balanced if they were putting out the same hate/dps while doing so.</p><p>Brawlers are slightly broken where they are now, not enough sacraficed for what is gained.  Crusaders are slightly more broken.</p><p>Crusaders need a little more in damage avoidance, brawlers need a bit less or more severe offensive penalties to adjust what they have.</p><p>Fighters aren't horribly far apart as they are now, but there is need for some tweaking.</p></blockquote><p>I am going to completely agree here. I actually find it kind of cool that brawlers can be more viable now. I feel a bit jipped that I can't dps as well but still take close to the same damage in defencive.</p><p>I have said this before and will say it again. All the changes here would be great, however <strong><span style="color: #00ff00;">if I had to pick just one thing at all to change it would be to gain a stoneskin that actually works in raids.</span></strong></p><p>Making my heals better would be nice (especially the ward or the useless arch healing) and gaining more dps would be spiffy, but really I would give all of that up and then some to gain a couple of spike damage control abilities that would work in our current raid content.</p><p><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;"><div><p>My focus is here... please don't make me beg</p><p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><span>1. Spike Damage / One Shots</span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #993300;"><strong><span>Shadowknights have many more saves they can use, as well as two more DI triggers. They can preserve those DI triggers much easier by rotating saves, sacrificing one trigger, saves come back up, sacrifice another trigger, saves again, final trigger, DI, saves, DI.</span></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #993300;"><strong><span>This pattern is similar for other classes. Guardians have stoneskins to prevent these absolutely massive frontal AOEs. Brawlers have more saves than I can even count. </span></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #993300;"><strong><span>Paladin saves are so weak we have to use multiple saves at once, AND only have one DI trigger. Having one less save translates to us dying three rounds of AOES earlier. Not just one round earlier. We have zero rotation potential, and none of our heals fix thix problem at all.</span></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;"><strong>The solution: Synergize with our passive hategain and change Devout Sacrament into a channeled 5s duration stoneskin. It can completely stun us for all I care, opposed to the similar "Superior Guard". We need an actual stoneskin on a reasonable recast to even remotely scratch the survivability requirements of the expansion. Warriors are monsters of physical damage tanking, there's no reason Crusaders can't have some advantage versus these ridiculous elemental, noxious, and arcane AoEs. Put magic damage reduction on our defensive stance or something instead of arch heal.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;"><strong><span style="color: #00ff00;">         </span></strong></span><span><span style="font-size: xx-large; color: #00ff00;">√</span></span><span style="color: #008000;"><strong><span style="color: #00ff00;">    E<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">qually useful, but for crusaders in general, would be to allow our Int line reflect to be reuse modifiable. It's currently hard locked at 3 minutes flat. AoEs are every 45 seconds or so on average, meaning it's up every 4 sets of AOES or so. Change the heal potency end line to reuse reduction down to a minute and thirty seconds.</span></span></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;"><strong><span style="font-size: small;">Divine Aura should be changed to damage reduction, or work on the upper 50% of damage instead of only the lower 50%. Either way, the recast needs to be bumped down. Our ward is underpowered as ever, and needs to be higher value. Lower recast WILL NOT even touch this problem, just double or triple the amount and fix the AA for it.</span></strong></span></p></blockquote></div></span></p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 03:26 PM
<p>Honestly... I would really just like a Dev to pop in and let us know that they have read the thread. That would at least let me know that they can consider some or none of this.</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 04:05 PM
<p>Sorry to keep posting >.< but another option for surviving the nutso AoE's in raids is to change Lay on Hands to be the equivilant as a ward instead of a direct heal. 30k ward would at least leave me alive after the aoe hits.</p>

Maergoth
08-15-2011, 04:13 PM
<p>I wish I had the time to address every single thing said here that is incorrect.. Oh, I do.</p><p>@<span><strong>64444659213</strong></span></p><p>Shadowknights DO have more saves. Furor, Group HP Siphon Ward, Myth Click, Manawall, LC, 3 DI triggers. Because those DI triggers exist, they can use them as a save every once and a while. Having one or two more saves enables SKs to rotate them much more efficiently. One or two more saves translates to four or five rounds of AOEs where previous saves or priest death preventions can refresh.</p><p>Paladins, however, only have one trigger and when that trigger goes down, we're sweating hard. Never know when one of our few wimpy saves is going to just not cut it.</p><p>Bloodletter can also be cast in combat, immediately following death. Sure, you'll say, but then we have to die.</p><p><strong>Reality check: Paladins are dying, and we don't gain anything from it.</strong></p><p>As for monks.. yes, they're very well off. Strikethrough immunity is necessary for them, it's not necessary for us. Not even beneficial in the long run.</p><p>@<span><strong>Dark_fairy</strong></span></p><p>Brawlers are OP because they can reliably deal with every issue the other tanks run into. I have played a monk, I have played a paladin, I have played a berserker, I have played pretty much every class in the game, including shadowknight.</p><p>Paladins are the tank that needs DPS the LEAST. Our transfer mechanics are fine for sustained aggro. More DPS doesn't solve any of our problems. Content isn't going to be changed, and shouldn't be changed. The fights are challenging, and being required to use saves is a GOOD THING. If you have saves to click, that is.</p><p>@<span><strong>Boli32</strong></span></p><p>I love you I think</p><p>@<span><strong>Loki Firestar</strong></span></p><p>Fixing our ward to be properly modified by AAs, and boosting the amount would make it a viable save when coupled with Stonewall. This is a big topic for discussion. At the same time, no matter how much our direct heals such as Devout Sacrament, Holy Aid and Arch heal will always be fundamentally flawed.</p><p>They do not allow us to recover from a spike like an actual save. Any type of stoneskin or 100% parry ability will allow for wards and reactives to recover while the tank is (mostly) immune to damage. However, heals just green us to what is basically 1/3rd of our overall HP (With wards and reactives totalling the other 2/3rds).</p><p>Making our heals faster cast would be beneficial, but the higher amount higher reuse change was a great leap in making them NOT useless, even if they are super situational still.</p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;"><strong><span>Hello devs, I know you're reading, and I appreciate it.  The LC change is a good start, but we need utility still.. and time will tell whether or not LC is "enough" to make it by.</span></strong></span></p>

644446592
08-15-2011, 04:17 PM
<p><span><strong>Reality check: Paladins are dying, and we don't gain anything from it.</strong></span></p><p>You have recastable dead save in combat. We are not. Check you class better.</p><p>Pallys doesn't have DA, Manawall, LC?</p><p>Mythic useless. BL now have only 2 triggers. Hello?</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 04:20 PM
<p><cite>64444659213 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><strong>Reality check: Paladins are dying, and we don't gain anything from it.</strong></span></p><p>You have recastable dead save in combat. We are not. Check you class better.</p></blockquote><p>one proc and a 3 min recast, I know my class very well</p><p>you updated you post so let me elaborate a bit more <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>You also have DA and it does nothing to help with not getting one shot</p><p>Manawall is a save and works just fine, we can pick up the reflect and survive three aoe's (which is an option for SK as well)</p><p>On a side note please don't come into a thread for improvements and try to destroy it. Never has anyone asked that the other classes be nerfed, simply put we are asking for the same amount of tools at our disposal as the rest. I believe most here would be saitisfied with losing some other aspects in order to attain the ultimate goal in mind.</p>

644446592
08-15-2011, 04:23 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>64444659213 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><strong>Reality check: Paladins are dying, and we don't gain anything from it.</strong></span></p><p>You have recastable dead save in combat. We are not. Check you class better.</p></blockquote><p>one proc and a 3 min recast, I know my class very well</p></blockquote><p>You can ask Troub JC for it. No?</p>

644446592
08-15-2011, 04:25 PM
<p><span>-Bloodletter can also be cast in combat, immediately following death. Sure, you'll say, but then we have to die.</span></p><p>50/50. Because one aoe and you in combat. And for tank no time for recast it after res.</p>

644446592
08-15-2011, 04:34 PM
<p><span >-Manawall is a save and works just fine, we can pick up the reflect and survive three aoe's (which is an option for SK as well)</span></p><p>What 3 aoe? Mobs hits like a machinegun.</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 04:39 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>@<span><strong>Loki Firestar</strong></span></p><p>Fixing our ward to be properly modified by AAs, and boosting the amount would make it a viable save when coupled with Stonewall. This is a big topic for discussion. At the same time, no matter how much our direct heals such as Devout Sacrament, Holy Aid and Arch heal will always be fundamentally flawed.</p><p>They do not allow us to recover from a spike like an actual save. Any type of stoneskin or 100% parry ability will allow for wards and reactives to recover while the tank is (mostly) immune to damage. However, heals just green us to what is basically 1/3rd of our overall HP (With wards and reactives totalling the other 2/3rds).</p><p>Making our heals faster cast would be beneficial, but the higher amount higher reuse change was a great leap in making them NOT useless, even if they are super situational still.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not at all saying that it is something that does not need fixing, just that I would rather see us able to take the AoE hits in raid better. Increasing the ward amount (by a fair amount if this is the solution) would be a great way to accomplish this and would solve two problems with one fix.</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 04:43 PM
<p><span style="color: #cae0e6; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: #07161e;">You can ask Troub JC for it. No?</span></p><p>this would be the same as saying the healers can cast a death save on the AoE. Again relying on another class to do our jobs for us when other do not need this.</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: #07161e;"><p style="color: #cae0e6; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">-Manawall is a save and works just fine, we can pick up the reflect and survive three aoe's (which is an option for SK as well)</p><p style="color: #cae0e6; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">What 3 aoe? Mobs hits like a machinegun.</p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">try not spaz but most "machine gun" AoE's have one in particular that should be blocked or mitigated in order to survive them</p></span></p>

644446592
08-15-2011, 04:48 PM
<p><span >-Again relying on another class to do our jobs for us when other do not need this.</span></p><p>Lol. You can reduce recast time on yours dead save and doesn't do it. For example SK can't do it.</p><p>Ok. You tank hard mod (did you tank Tormax or Soren) and use Manawall. After 1-2 second you have 0 (zero) mana.</p>

Controlor
08-15-2011, 04:49 PM
<p><cite>64444659213 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>64444659213 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><strong>Reality check: Paladins are dying, and we don't gain anything from it.</strong></span></p><p>You have recastable dead save in combat. We are not. Check you class better.</p></blockquote><p>one proc and a 3 min recast, I know my class very well</p></blockquote><p>You can ask Troub JC for it. No?</p></blockquote><p>The reuse timer does not kick in until your trigger has gone off.... So asking for Jcap is useless. Not to mention that the best reuse it can be is 2 min 30 seconds (base 5 min recast).</p><p>Bloodletter has 3 min recast and with similar reuse as a paladin (which i am sure a SK has) it should be about 2 min to 2 min 10 sec recast. With 2 triggers. Yes you cant cast it in combat and being able to cast it after a death depends on whether your reuse is up and yah dont get hit by an aoe. It is still the case that Bloodletter > Divine Favor (Not to mention we are pretty much required to spend 3 aa to prevent it from stifle and dazing us). The only time paladin save may be better is if the fight lasts 10+ mins.</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 04:54 PM
<p><cite>64444659213 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span>-Again relying on another class to do our jobs for us when other do not need this.</span></p><p>Lol. You can reduce recast time on yours dead save and doesn't do it. For example SK can't do it.</p><p>Ok. You tank hard mod (did you tank Tormax or Soren) and use Manawall. After 1-2 second you have 0 (zero) mana.</p></blockquote><p>What exactly are you trying to accomplish in here, you are posting more to say paladins should be left alone then trying to actually help in any of the threads...</p><p>But to address</p><p>Yes in any way shape or form I would love to reduce the recast of my death save, it isn't at all that myself and other do not try to do this. However it is still something other tanks don't have to do at all. I am simply saying that it is at an unbalance atm. I think you are actually missing what we are asking for to begin with. No Paladin here has asked for a better death save, we are asking for a way to not trigger that death save on every big AoE.</p><p>As for Manawall - Who cares if my mana goes to 0... at least I won't be dead that round. Argueing that this needs to be better is completly contradicting your posts that we don't need any better death prevention, which is why I say you don't understand what we are asking for.</p>

Yimway
08-15-2011, 05:30 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes in any way shape or form I would love to reduce the recast of my death save, it isn't at all that myself and other do not try to do this. However it is still something other tanks don't have to do at all. I am simply saying that it is at an unbalance atm. I think you are actually missing what we are asking for to begin with. No Paladin here has asked for a better death save, we are asking for a way to not trigger that death save on every big AoE.</p></blockquote><p>Stonewall should be changed to a stoneskin.</p><p>Both Crusaders would benefit from it, and it is a reasonable gain that does not impact class balance.</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 05:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes in any way shape or form I would love to reduce the recast of my death save, it isn't at all that myself and other do not try to do this. However it is still something other tanks don't have to do at all. I am simply saying that it is at an unbalance atm. I think you are actually missing what we are asking for to begin with. No Paladin here has asked for a better death save, we are asking for a way to not trigger that death save on every big AoE.</p></blockquote><p>Stonewall should be changed to a stoneskin.</p><p>Both Crusaders would benefit from it, and it is a reasonable gain that does not impact class balance.</p></blockquote><p>unless SK get stonewall in something other then the Shadows tree that isn't a shared ability,</p><p>Divine Aura is the shared Save and all that would need to change is the less then 50% health limitation</p>

Boli32
08-15-2011, 05:55 PM
<p>Just for clarity I'll run down pally saves and why they do not perform.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong>Manawall</strong>Autoattack damage can burn through this never mind AoEs; also on power drain fights it is effectively useless; it is NOT a reliable death save. At best it is an "ooooh fiddlesticks!" button which due to the side effects canm only realistically be used once every 5min. (every second time its up).</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong>Divine Aura</strong>It is on a LONG recast and the times you want to use it (to save your collective behind) is the time you *will* be hit for more than 50% of your max health. At best it will reduce incoming damage so you have more wards up; but it cannot be used for every AoE or frontal. ~ 3m45s recast (with reuse) you're lucky if you get to use it once in a fight.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong>Crusader's Faith</strong>This is a direct heal based spell and whilst it is very effec tive once you are takign damage it does nothing to prevent it nor "save wards"; at best it is the equivlent of spamming heals without the need to spam heals.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong>Legionaries Conviction</strong>(now a 2min recast) ability which lasts for 20s. This is going in the right direction but at best it is only used for every other AoE. using a 3min reuse modifiable (average 2min) woudl be much better even if the damage was reduced or removed entirely. At present it is our best ability to REDUCE (but not entirely stop) incoming damage and *only* magical damage.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"> </p><p style="padding-left: 60px;">All of the above are shared with our crusader counterparts. Then we have the paladin death saves:</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong>Divine Favor</strong>Easily our best "save" but one which actually forces us to die and spend AA in order not to be stifled/dazed for 12s; only a single trigger but can be cast in combat.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong>Demonstration of Faith</strong>Not effected correclty by potency; at best a 10k ward which will give us a greater "ward buffer" on ourselves pre AoE but two small comared to actually how much the AoEs are actually hitting us for.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong>Lay on Hands/ Devout Sacrment / Prayer of Healing (ha!)/ Holy Aid / Arch heal (lols!)</strong>All of these abilities require us to actually TAKE damage before we can heal it; manage to cast the heal before the healers do are not stuned/stifled or out of power. in short healers are far more efficient at... ya know HEALING us; they are very handy at times but honestly none of these abilities will stop us getting one shotted by AoEs, multi attack or flurries.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong>Stonewall</strong>Can be struckthrough; only works for melee damage, only works for frontals pretty much our only save however but one which you cannot rely on.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong>Mythical Effect</strong>10% inate Damage reduction Only works for physical attacks nice (some say overpowered) effect but this alone does not stop the cleanup crew being called to wipe the pally shaped stain from the floor.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;">10% heal - only works if you do not actually die and do not have any wards on you at the time. you cannot heal what doesn't need to be healed. Tempers DPS spikes but does in no way stop them.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"> </p><p>And there we are all our "ubbah saves" most shared with Shadowknight's and most fundamentally flawed in some way; as a second most/equaly most defensive tank in the game having our ability to stop/reduce or avoid incomign damage in someway reduces to "occasionally" and "kind of works" and "need a rez!"</p><p>Most of tanking these days revolves around timing Multiple AoEs and putting abilties up to save or reduce damage from these spell attacks and "ability to survive" directly corolates to the number and the recast of these.</p><p>With the change to LC.. that number for Paladins is 5 every 6 min. since Aoes *generally* have a recast of about 45s that's 8 effects we will need to avoid in the same time.</p><p>That's 3 timed (or once every 2min) we will need to rely on another class to help us avoid dieing; and that's not even counting fights with MULTIPLE AoEs / effects we have to defend against; I'm sure if you work it out for other tank classes they are sitting *far* pretty than that.</p><p>For a defensive tank not being able to ... you know... defend sounds pretty broken to me.</p><p>Conclusion: Paladins *need* not want, desire for e_peen score but NEED a stoneskin like effect as right now we simply do not have the defence to survive against harder mobs or at the best need to heavily rely on others in the group/raid as to be quite honest... why choose a pally when another tank will do the job better?</p>

Maergoth
08-15-2011, 06:29 PM
<p>I'm finding it very hard to understand why misinformed individuals are trying to derail a legitimate feedback thread.</p><p>I'm further confused by the fact that no moderator is stepping in and dealing with the trolls; and it is blatantly obvious trolling.</p><p>THIS ISN'T A DISCUSSION FORUM, THIS IS A FEEDBACK FORUM. If you're not commenting on the changes or lack thereof, <span style="color: #ff0000;">get out of the thread.  </span></p><p>If you don't play a paladin, stop pretending you know what you're talking about. It's not as simple as looking at numbers, it REQUIRES OBSERVING OUR CLASS FIRST HAND.</p><p>I've been playing this game since launch, I am currently involved in the most difficult raid content this game has to offer, and I assure you that no one knows the strengths and weaknesses of this class as well as the proper half of people contributing to this thread.</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 07:41 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm finding it very hard to understand why misinformed individuals are trying to derail a legitimate feedback thread.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p>

Maergoth
08-15-2011, 09:25 PM
<p>It doesn't sound like he's saying Paladins don't need help, it sounds like he's saying SKs are just as bad off.</p><p>They aren't, but if that's the case, make your own thread. Problem solved.</p>

Buzzing
08-15-2011, 11:41 PM
<p>still kind of wish we would get at least an "I read this" from the dev team <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

Emerica
08-16-2011, 04:31 AM
<p>There is alot that this class needs to have to it. I am a fairly new player, about a month-5 weeks into playing. I cant really comment on the problem with raiding, ive yet to do it in this game.</p><p>I can tell there is a huge difference already between how the tank classes perform. Problem one should probably have been noticed by the devs when there is like 5 people on each server that actively play a paladin. Raiding/grouping/instances.</p><p>The only thing i can really relate to at this point is that this class needs help. The hate generation and loss of aggro on these mem bluring mobs is really just annoying. You could have a solid group and be fine but the moment we space out all of the taunt and snaps that we can, and we are waiting on reuse and this happens, aggro and threat generation just destroys us till the only spell ive noticed that even works on this (holy ground, go figure) pops back up. I saw the comments on survivability, i kind of chose this class because it was suppose to be one of the best at it. The other tanks seem to get a ton more perks than i do. I dont play any other class so i cant compare this is just from the perspective of a new player. I kinda wanna trade my new car in for a newer car already. Hopefully something is being done about that.</p><p>Like i said i havnt been playing long but i can push buttons pretty ok. The ward and heals are useless even to a pally with full rygorr just doing instances to get to the raiding content. I can only imagine a bottle of advil to help the headache of a raid with the poor versitility this class experiences.</p><p>The aa choices are pretty bad for the most part too and dont seem to be thought out in a linear mindset. You guys want us to scale through and pick certain trees that have half of the tree making no sense to anyone why its there. I however heard this stuff was being looked at and since i dont play in test, ill keep holding out on this portion of the class.</p><p>I know the things here might have been said but as an active paladin i want to help, and even i can see that something is wrong in contrast to the other tank and defensive classes.</p><p>Thanks.</p>

Boli32
08-16-2011, 11:27 AM
<p>This was mentioned in the other thread but I will paraphrase it here</p><p><em><strong>Paladin</strong></em></p><ul><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands.</li></ul><p>Does nothing for us, even if it was 20% per point and returning it to its pre nerf power cost it is NOT WORTH the AA investment except to use it to cap out the reuse (2 / 5 points myself).</p><ul><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice now also reduces the power cost of Devout Sacrifice.</li></ul><p>As above does NOTHING for us; if paladins have power proc items on we are either a: have enough power or b: don't have enough power (power drain fights) reducing the power cost on heals fixes nothing. Yes paladins are a power hungry class but this is resolved with the advent of power proc gear/clickies/potions.</p><ul><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith.</li></ul><p>This debuff will expire and will no longer be active on the paladin as soon as the ward is used up; which in rougher fights is often less than a second. Likewise a ~1.2k debuff which expires early and costs 5 AA is an investment not many paladins will make. Especially as mitigation debuffs can be capped out pretty easily.</p><p>And the biggest joke of them all:</p><ul><li>Enhance: Intercept now also heals the target when Intercept expires naturally.</li></ul><p>Completely useless. There is NO WAY in any conceivable situation that having intercede (1m 40s duration) expire naturally on someone withotu having triggered and who actually needs a heal.</p><p> Cast Intercede on Scout</p><p>> Intercede procs and paladin takes damage> scout doesn't get hit (and thus on full health) and is then healed for 0.> Scout has reduced health and we cast intercede on them; 1m40s later it expires and we heal hem. not being healed for 1m40s when we ourselves have several heals is just not going to happen... EVER.</p><p>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-</p><p>I wrote a <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank">quick writeup</a> on the paladin AA choices but I feel I may have to do this again.</p><p>Sometimes I feel as if you are bing "too careful" over every aspect of the Paladin class partly because its flaws (and it does have *many*) are not very apparant until later in the game and at higher level are absolutely crippling.</p><p>The principle behind the paladin is a "tank who heals" but the so-called hybrid of tank healer often means we are shoe horned into taking lackluster abilities as "flavour".</p><p>The core principle of the paladin is a TANK; and our primary means of defence is "divine" or healer-like; but nearly all of our abilities require us to TAKE damage before we can actualy heal it. As it stands now the "official stance" of paladins is they can heal damage spikes they take; but we cannot heal if we have already died from the damage. A 60k health paladin who gets kicked in the nuts for 70k doesn't stand up later and use his 30k heal; he waits for a rez just like the rest of his raid who he failed to protect.</p><p>In herioc or solo terms you simply do not take enough damage to kill you in under a second but in raids you do... and have to take this damage regually.</p><p>We are not askign for much; just a way to avoid being kicked in the nuts in he first place... leave our balls alone!</p>

Yimway
08-16-2011, 12:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stonewall should be changed to a stoneskin.</p><p>Both Crusaders would benefit from it, and it is a reasonable gain that does not impact class balance.</p></blockquote><p>unless SK get stonewall in something other then the Shadows tree that isn't a shared ability,</p><p>Divine Aura is the shared Save and all that would need to change is the less then 50% health limitation</p></blockquote><p>Wow, I appologize, one too many pain meds yesterday =/</p><p>Stonewall should be a stoneskin, the SK myth click should be changed to work on all damage types.  I sorta blurred 2 issues together there.</p><p>DA could be changed and the limitation removed, but the durration/triggers would have to be adjusted significantly.  Id DA was tweaked then none of the above changes would be warranted</p><p>It is actually important that not too much is done here.  Either crusader class should have the abilities to block/avoid every other significant damage spike.  So a prevent that can be min/maxed to useable every ~  1:15 is needed.  An additional emergency that can be reduced to a ~2:30 reuse should also be included. </p><p>The classes add alot via their hybrid nature that I would not favor giving them the ability to prevent every damage spike, but with some coordination from other classes, and some skill, they should be able to perform the task when needed to.  When you look at how many different ways a stoneskin or prevent can be provided from other classes, it is not difficult to coordinate for success.</p><p>I do not believe a hybrid class should be given every tool to raid MT on their own.  Any class given such tools should have little utility beyond that task.  I'm sure I'll get flamed for that opinion though <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Boli32
08-16-2011, 12:29 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do not believe a hybrid class should be given every tool to raid MT on their own.  Any class given such tools should have little utility beyond that task.  I'm sure I'll get flamed for that opinion though <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Paladins are not a hybrid class, we are a tank with fluff heals which outside of a few unique circumstances do little mroe than making us feel better when we accept our rez.</p>

Buzzing
08-16-2011, 12:47 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stonewall should be changed to a stoneskin.</p><p>Both Crusaders would benefit from it, and it is a reasonable gain that does not impact class balance.</p></blockquote><p>unless SK get stonewall in something other then the Shadows tree that isn't a shared ability,</p><p>Divine Aura is the shared Save and all that would need to change is the less then 50% health limitation</p></blockquote><p>Wow, I appologize, one too many pain meds yesterday =/</p><p>Stonewall should be a stoneskin, the SK myth click should be changed to work on all damage types.  I sorta blurred 2 issues together there.</p><p>DA could be changed and the limitation removed, but the durration/triggers would have to be adjusted significantly.  Id DA was tweaked then none of the above changes would be warranted</p><p>It is actually important that not too much is done here.  Either crusader class should have the abilities to block/avoid every other significant damage spike.  So a prevent that can be min/maxed to useable every ~  1:15 is needed.  An additional emergency that can be reduced to a ~2:30 reuse should also be included. </p><p>The classes add alot via their hybrid nature that I would not favor giving them the ability to prevent every damage spike, but with some coordination from other classes, and some skill, they should be able to perform the task when needed to.  When you look at how many different ways a stoneskin or prevent can be provided from other classes, it is not difficult to coordinate for success.</p><p>I do not believe a hybrid class should be given every tool to raid MT on their own.  Any class given such tools should have little utility beyond that task.  I'm sure I'll get flamed for that opinion though <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I am actually going to agree with you. <span style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: underline;">IF</span> a tank has more utility then the other then they should not be a stand alone tank that can do it all. However atm the only true utility we were given is the ability to heal and that has been shot down to near nothing (and to be honest most are okay with heals only 1 time per minute). The direct heals at this point are (I'm guessing here) working exactly as intended for the class. Warriors mitigate more damage to control health spike, Brawlers avoid the damage and Crusaders help heal themselves.</p><p>As Boli and several others have mentioned, most of the ability to do that in heroic content works just fine (I love it actually) but we are on the lacking side when it comes to performing that job in the end game.</p><p>The Stonewall and Myth clicky pared with fixing divine aura would fix both classes in this area. However if you wanted to keep the over all "flavor" of the class you could give us a decent ward on a good recast that can do the trick. (SK would have to be some kind of magic shield or something along those lines)</p><p> In other words the extra flavor of all the tanks are intended for one major goal and that is to tank. The heals and extra utility that is spoken of from the crusader stand point is literally just our way to do the exact same job that all tanks are supposed to do. </p>

Lalen
08-16-2011, 02:04 PM
<p>Just about every other class out there that I have played gets a unique ability (like berserk, power syphon, etc) that needs no upgrades and scales with their level except paladins -- I say this is where the spike issues can be best addressed with a great sense of balence.  I think it should be a shield block ability (100% mit) that can be quickly recasted but at a significant power cost each cast (100p @ level 10, 3,000p @ level 90)</p>

Buzzing
08-16-2011, 02:11 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just about every other class out there that I have played gets a unique ability (like berserk, power syphon, etc) that needs no upgrades and scales with their level except paladins -- I say this is where the spike issues can be best addressed with a great sense of balence.  I think it should be a shield block ability (100% mit) that can be quickly recasted but at a significant power cost each cast (100p @ level 10, 3,000p @ level 90)</p></blockquote><p>wait... you mean like stone wall...</p><p>a block only works against physical damage and will not work against the AoE's, please read the posts.</p>

Yimway
08-16-2011, 02:13 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just about every other class out there that I have played gets a unique ability (like berserk, power syphon, etc) that needs no upgrades and scales with their level except paladins</p></blockquote><p>You wouldn't classify amends, lay on hands, fighter cures, and to a smaller degree devout scrament all in that category?  I appreciate that other classes have been given 'lite' versions of some of these, and maybe brawlers a little too much, but the ability to hold hate with significantly less effort than other fighters has to be figured in atleast some small portion to the class uniqueness.</p><p>To gain something else, I'm afraid something would likely need to be sacrificed.</p>

Buzzing
08-16-2011, 02:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just about every other class out there that I have played gets a unique ability (like berserk, power syphon, etc) that needs no upgrades and scales with their level except paladins</p></blockquote><p>You wouldn't classify amends, lay on hands, fighter cures, and to a smaller degree devout scrament all in that category?  I appreciate that other classes have been given 'lite' versions of some of these, and maybe brawlers a little too much, but the ability to hold hate with significantly less effort than other fighters has to be figured in atleast some small portion to the class uniqueness.</p><p>To gain something else, I'm afraid something would likely need to be sacrificed.</p></blockquote><p>they are actually, and the only one of those that does not scale properly would be lay on hands as it does not crit any longer. Cures, amends and devout sacrament are working great and are a unique part of the class =)</p><p>as for giving some of it up, I would trade lay on hands and 20% of my amends just to gain a 3 hit stone skin on a reasonable recast.</p><p>Thats a steap trade but one I personally would be happy to do and I speak only for myself.</p>

Controlor
08-16-2011, 05:12 PM
<p>Suggestions to adjusting paladins AA's (and some spells). Some of these are my own ideas and some are other peoples ideas who i agree with,</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Crusader Tree:</span></p><p>Combat Leadership - Damage amount needs to be doubled or tripled.</p><p>Int Line</p><ol><li>Legonaire's Mercy needs to go (will adress this a bit later). The heal amount is basically useless for a SK.</li><li>Replace Legonaire's Mercy with something like increase +Spell Skills (Disruption / ministration / ordination / sujugation) by 10 points per rank. This would then cap at 100  to those which helps offset the future lack of +spell skill on tank gear to keep us somewhat in line with the bottom end of our spell damage. This should be a passive ability so it is self only.</li><li>Legonaire's Focus - This should be changed to modifies Legonarie's Conviction's reuse. So the full 8 points spent into it turns Legonaire's Convition into a 1 min 30 sec recast (you can keep LC as a non modifiable by reuse except by direct means which this aa would be a direct mean).</li></ol><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Paladin Tree:</span></p><p>Healing Line</p><ol><li>The reducing of power on our heals is as mentioned laughable. and needs to be changed.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith - Change this to MIT reduc not Arcane reduc and have its duration 20 - 30 seconds. (someone mentioned 24 which is fine as well).</li><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands - Change it so that each tank adds a ward to Lay on Hands. This will go into helping offset the use of it if you are just a bit to slow and you get heal off after healers heal you. Have the ward be pretty sizable as well because with raid gear 2 points put it at reuse cap. So have the ward be 20 - 25k. It is on a 2 min 30 sec reuse after 5 points so that is not that big of a deal but it can help.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrament - someone mentioned to have it convert its non heal damage into a ward i think that would be too powerful as it would have a 45 second reuse at cap and a 20 - 25k ward every 45 seconds is a bit to much (as you could just spam it when its up). I suggest have it put a buff on us that reduces damage from <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>all </strong></span>types 1 - 2% per rank that lasts for 5 - 10 seconds. So at 5 ranks into it you get a buff that lasts 5 to 10 seconds and reduces all damage by 5 to 10% (duration and % value can be determined for balance issues).</li><li>Arch Healing - Two options. The first is to Turn it into what 10 rank Legonarie's Mercy currently is. That is increase heal amount by 10% of strength and increase ele/nox/arcane by 2040 (GROUP BUFF), if you made it into a self buff than it would need to be increase heal amount by 50% of strength / 3 - 5k resist. OR turn it into a 2 or 3 hit STONESKIN on a reasonable recast. </li></ol><p>Enhance: Intercept - Again as pointed out the heal after expires is LAUGHABLE as its near 2 min duration. TBH dont know what could be done to add to it i have a couple ideas but i dont know how the ywork with balance.</p><ul><li>Idea 1 - 10% / rank. So at 5 ranks into it change it so that on a sucessful intercept caster takes 50% of the damage and target takes 0% of the damage. This is prob WAY to powerful though. Basically so when the paladin casts it they dont eat the entire aoe.</li><li>Idea 2 - At 5 ranks into it increase the trigger amount by 1 (so 2 triggers if over 50% health and 3 triggers if under 50% health). Though this may be bad because it could kill the paladin.</li><li>Idea 3 - 1k -1.6k / rank. So at 5 ranks into it target recieves a 5 - 8k ward on it<strong> landing</strong>. The ward can't be too big because it would be at a 15 sec recast. Paladins also cant cast this on themselves so it cant be used to solo instances or anything like that. However it can possibly offset the damage that would go to the paladin.</li><li>Idea 4 - At 5 ranks. When a sucessful intercept happens than it increases the paladins threat position by 1 towards the target that the damage was intercepted from. This would act like a psudo snap. The issue would be recast is 15 seconds (min) so thats theoretically 1 hate position every 15 seconds which may be considered OP. Though we have to absorb damage to get that hate position. If 1 hate position is too much than have it increase threat amount bo 50k or so. This is not to powerful either as if we spam our single target threat spell (3 times is about 17 seconds worth) would give us between 30 - 35k threat. So 35k threat vs 50k threat in a similar amount of time (17 seconds vs 15 seconds) is not that much considering spaming single target threat does little  for hate.</li></ul><p>Devout Faith - This NEEDS to be changed to properly increase the ward amount of Demonstration of Faith by 20% OR change its text to say increase ward amount by 6.7%. It is a mechanics thing that our ward only recieves 1/3 potency that is fine. However the spell does NOT do what it SAYS it does. It needs changing.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Shadows Tree: </span></p><p>Stonewall - This (and every fighter temp melee avoid buffs) needs to be given strikethrough immunity. JUST on the ability itself so that it does what it says it does.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Spells:</span></p><p>Myth Clicky - This needs to become one of 2 things. 1 a proper stoneskin, or 2 another snap that increases positions by 3 - 5 points. In either case you would need to adjust the reuse timer on it. It also would depend on what you would do with the other stuff suggested.</p><p>Holy Ground - IF you do not change the myth clicky into a hate position increase OR give us some other snap than the initial snap amount needs to be increased to 3 to 5 on this spell. If we are given another snap and stoneskin than this spell is fine.</p>

Maergoth
08-16-2011, 06:25 PM
<p>Keeping saves on topic is important, but they did just give us LC on a 2 minute recast. If we keep talking about saves, they might get the impression that we just haven't tested the application of having it 33% more often.</p><p>We still need utility. Tanks are expected to live, and nobody really cares how or why it happens. However, most classes contribute something else to the raid that people DO care about. Paladins do not.</p><p>Our raidwide mit buff is unimportant, unless you're considering the tanking the raid does while the pally is dead from not having saves.</p><p>Heretic's Destruction parses out to be extremely insignificant, especially compared to shadowknights or brawler temps. 15% potency and Crit bonus for 10 seconds every 120 seconds (Check my math, but isn't that equivalent to a constant 1.25 cb/pot?), compared to 1.3% potency permanently on our raidwide, and that ISN'T EVEN AN ENDLINE.</p><p>Also, our raid wide gives 5% heal amount.. what.</p><p>Our transfers as "deaggro" utility don't actually help since the only time tanks lose aggro is to memwipes.</p><p>Our heals are now self oriented besides our group heal, which does so little it's hardly worth consideration.</p><p>I don't see our class having any desireable utility at all. Our 1.3% raidwide potency or whatever is probably the best thing we've got.If you do the math and divide the potency and crit bonus out over the recast, it turns out to be only slightly better.</p><p>I just don't know what our class is supposed to be I guess. I know what I want it to be, and I know what it needs to be to do what is expected of me, but I get the feeling SOE doesn't want it to be that way so we're just stuck in balance limbo like the american middle class.</p>

Odys
08-16-2011, 06:33 PM
<p>I read here and there that amend is useless due to cap on hate modifier. It's not my experience.</p><p>According to me sceal of heroism and amend are not hate modifiers they are transfers. For me a modifier is either coming from AAs (one of the crusader column provides it), adornments, buf (coercer enraged behavior, or sympathic group aura). </p><p>So i don't really understand why paladins (more expert than me) claim sentences like "amend actually transfert 2% due to caps" and so on.  My paladin is not well geared and i have no issue keeping the agro over an assassin or a dirge fully equiped with raid gear. My experience is that berzerkers do have much more problems.</p><p>I consider sigil/amend as  very powerfull tools, but i may simply lack knowledge on hate transferts.</p><p>+> not derailing the trail but someone just mentionned those 2 spells as being huge assets, and i agree but i read opposite opinions many times.</p>

Yimway
08-16-2011, 06:40 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Our raidwide mit buff is unimportant,</p><p>Also, our raid wide gives 5% heal amount.. what.</p></blockquote><p>As a raid leader I put some value on both of these.  The difference on the trauma aoe damage on squishies is noticeable with and without the raid-wide.</p><p>You conveniently left out the ability to group cure your party when under control effects.</p><p>You also left out the classes immunity to some controls + the break out to controls + single target curing healers susceptible to those control effects.</p><p>I find all these abilities, particularly when well used and coordinated rather valuable.  And are contributing factors to why we run a Paladin OT over a Berserker or SK.</p>

Yimway
08-16-2011, 06:42 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So i don't really understand why paladins (more expert than me) claim sentences like "amend actually transfert 2% due to caps" and so on.</p></blockquote><p>50% hate transfer cap.  If you build a group that has other transfer classes in it, the paladin amends isn't particularly amazing.  It all depends on your group makeup what % utilization you will see from amends.</p>

Vash854
08-16-2011, 06:52 PM
<p>Zealous Smite and Aura of the Crusader are both Crusader shared, so he didn't leave out anything.</p>

Maergoth
08-16-2011, 09:14 PM
<p>Except, you can't spec for cures while being able to survive (Manawall)</p><p>and no matter how much you appreciate something as a raid leader doesn't mean it provides tangible, significant gain. Sorry, 5% heals is insignificant.. especially when every healer has like 200 potency.</p><p>Aura of the Crusader is a tank tool or an aggro tool, NOT UTILITY. If you get stunned, you break it, and you don't die. Or, you get stunned, you break it, and you hold aggro. You don't get stunned, break it, and make anyone else smile.</p><p>As for being able to cure others, this is so incredibly situational. There aren't many if ANY situations where I can just stunbreak, and cure a healer who is stunned or stifled, etc. Even if that situation miraculously arises, it would be absurd to rely on that happening as a means of success.</p>

Loxus
08-17-2011, 10:38 AM
<p>We're a defensive tank that is supposed to be equivelent to, or slightly behind a Guardian tanking ability (we actually don't know, the developers never told us the tank roles).  Yet we have the 2nd lowest level of proactive damage mitigation of all tanks.  We have our myth buff that only covers 10% incoming damage (the other 10% is completely reactive as we have to be damaged first) our ward that may cover 6K to 10K if we're lucky.  Stoneskin which only works on melee and can be struckthrough and Divine Aura which only covers damage below 50% of our max health.</p><p>I have no problem being a reactive tank mitigating damage after it happens, however, when we're getting one-shotted by mobs and thereby negating our reactive abilities completely being the 2nd most defensive tank, something is seriously wrong.</p><p>We either need more serious proactive damage mitigation abilities or we need our armor mitigation curve (strikethough resistance) seriously increased.</p><p>Some Ideas I'd "like" to see.</p><p>Arch heal should be equivilent to another lay-of-hands healing 100% health and power on a 5 min timer since everything we have to protect ourselves with involves power aside from the myth buff.</p><p>Our group heal should be a reactive heal of 3 to 5 triggers with an increase of 50% to 100% it's current value.</p><p>Holy Ground should be reverted back to RoK pre-nerf increasing 24 hate positions for 12 seconds.</p><p>Stonewall and Divine aura changed to 100% damage absorption and strikethrough immunity for 8 and 10 seconds respectively on the same time scales as current.</p><p>Strikethrough resistances added to all tanks stances not just pallys. (or DX stances all together they're really rather pointless at this point in the game).</p><p>Pledge of Armorment should be changed to a raid-wide crit mit buff.</p>

Maergoth
08-17-2011, 12:00 PM
<p>Raidwide crit mit buff wouldn't be beneficial, it's so easy to cap crit mit it's unbelievable. The mitigation value is also fine, in fact.. that's one ability I'm not concerned about.</p><p>However, our adornments / armor focuses are where our class lacks largely.</p><p>None of them are desirable and even the sigil focus which has the most promise is only 20% mitigation, instead of damage reduction or numerical amount. Normally % based stuff is fine, but from the mage group where we find ourselves more often than not, 20% mitigation is like.. 1 or 2% mit for the group.</p>

Dark_fairy
08-17-2011, 02:55 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Raidwide crit mit buff wouldn't be beneficial, it's so easy to cap crit mit it's unbelievable. The mitigation value is also fine, in fact.. that's one ability I'm not concerned about.</p><p>However, our adornments / armor focuses are where our class lacks largely.</p><p>None of them are desirable and even the sigil focus which has the most promise is only 20% mitigation, instead of damage reduction or numerical amount. Normally % based stuff is fine, but from the mage group where we find ourselves more often than not, 20% mitigation is like.. 1 or 2% mit for the group.</p></blockquote><p>I take it you dont raid hard mode, where every adorn you have has to be crit mit almost. and then Drunder HM where you are still short? Crit mit is only super easy to cap for lower end guilds doing easy stuff.</p>

Vash854
08-17-2011, 03:33 PM
<p><cite>Dark_fairy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I take it you dont raid hard mode</p></blockquote><p>I lol'd, I'm pretty sure he raids more HM than you.</p><p>Pledge should give like 5% crit mit though, along with the mit it already gives, just because SKs get 5CB debuff.</p>

Maergoth
08-17-2011, 05:36 PM
<p>I have raided everything, and I'm kind of upset my reputation doesn't precede me.</p><p>Everyone in our guild is fully crit mit adorned, and we have plenty of crit mit for the new zones. Yes, it would assist in breaking content you have no business doing, but it would be absolutely useless for 90% of the content in the game. There are very few fights (one or two currently feasible) that require gratuitous amounts of critical mitigation, and they're the first two named in Sullons.</p><p>The others shouldn't even be attempted, and zone definitely not cleared until hardmode statue is on farm status. The BPs will give enough extra crit mit to make up for every single adornment, 20+ from BP alone, and it will be fine.</p>

Buzzing
08-17-2011, 06:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We're a defensive tank that is supposed to be equivelent to, or slightly behind a Guardian tanking ability (we actually don't know, the developers never told us the tank roles).  Yet we have the 2nd lowest level of proactive damage mitigation of all tanks.  We have our myth buff that only covers 10% incoming damage (the other 10% is completely reactive as we have to be damaged first) our ward that may cover 6K to 10K if we're lucky.  Stoneskin which only works on melee and can be struckthrough and Divine Aura which only covers damage below 50% of our max health.</p><p>I have no problem being a reactive tank mitigating damage after it happens, however, when we're getting one-shotted by mobs and thereby negating our reactive abilities completely being the 2nd most defensive tank, something is seriously wrong.</p><p>We either need more serious proactive damage mitigation abilities or we need our armor mitigation curve (strikethough resistance) seriously increased.</p><p>Some Ideas I'd "like" to see.</p><p>Arch heal should be equivilent to another lay-of-hands healing 100% health and power on a 5 min timer since everything we have to protect ourselves with involves power aside from the myth buff.</p><p>Our group heal should be a reactive heal of 3 to 5 triggers with an increase of 50% to 100% it's current value.</p><p>Holy Ground should be reverted back to RoK pre-nerf increasing 24 hate positions for 12 seconds.</p><p>Stonewall and Divine aura changed to 100% damage absorption and strikethrough immunity for 8 and 10 seconds respectively on the same time scales as current.</p><p>Strikethrough resistances added to all tanks stances not just pallys. (or DX stances all together they're really rather pointless at this point in the game).</p><p>Pledge of Armorment should be changed to a raid-wide crit mit buff.</p></blockquote><p>this is almost entirely comprised of over the top suggestions... And I am a raiding pali...</p><p>add a potency buff to amends... would give the scout or mage that is jacked into being in the OT or MT group a reason to want to be there as apposed to a more dps focussed group. Tada some useful utility <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> I would even go so far as to say you could trade the transfer % for that Potency (or crit bonus would be better imo) as this has always been a bit of a peeve for the other tanks who have a bit harder time with agro as a whole. Losing 20% of that to give 20% CB or Pot to the person recieving that buff would fix this and give some extra "want" for a paladin.</p><p>The change to our reflect allowing it to be cast every two minutes is a actually a great change that will help us perform our role as a tank in raids without over powering that ability. One more way to at least lower the damage of an aoe that can one shot us would be close to on par with the other tanks. Easily done by changing Devout Sacrament or Lay on Hands to a ward that wards around 25K (increasing the recast if it is devout sacrament naturally). No we will not have stoneskins like some of the other tanks but really that is why we have heals (or life taps for the sk). We don't prevent all the damage because we can realistically help to bring the health back to full when it is lost. This is a simple change to the type of healing ability and just a trade off in the form of total healing in the case of Lay on Hands or a bit longer recast for devout sacrament.</p><p>As a paladin we have a much harder time with mem wiping mobs... Simply adding another possition to holy ground (to make it on par with the SK positionals in aoe). We would still realistically be lacking in the snap taunts area but this would just wind up being the weakest area for the paladin as we can hold normal agro better then the rest. Constant agro vs snap agro /shrug</p><p>If we want real changes to be made we need doable suggestions. I have no issues giving up some of what we do for these changes.</p>

Maergoth
08-17-2011, 07:17 PM
<p>The fact of the matter is, some mobs will always one-shot. Reflect or not, it happens. To be able to stoneskin, no matter how short duration, is still important. Manawall is the solution to this. It really is. But it is <span style="text-decoration: underline;">IMPOSSIBLE</span> to keep your mana up on some of these fights.</p><p>There's no reason we have to be the only tank who can't deal with that, whilst having no snap aggro or utility/dps. It sounds unfair when worded like that, <strong>but it is unfair.</strong> Don't try and sugar coat it. We are scraping by with bare minimums in not just the highest end of situations, but almost all situations.</p><p><strong>Breaking content</strong>: Paladins lack. We don't have the snaps to prevent deaths to memwipes, we don't have the survivability to live through one-shotting AOEs or death touches, and we don't have utility to maximize raid DPS when it matters most.</p><p><strong>Trivialized content</strong>: Again, memwipes still wreck us. Except, scouts can take a few hits, usually until the mob dies. Wait, if the Paladin can't snap the mob back, and the DPS can tank.. why bring the paladin? Unlike other tanks, we don't DPS well under any circumstances. Nor do we allow other people to do so. Even on the fun, all out burn fights in easymode content, people SIGH OVER VENTRILO when the paladin is in their group instead of the SK. Do any other tanks even grasp how demoralizing that is? Does ANY CLASS in this game understand that? Monks may remember that feeling, but that feeling is why they boosted monks.</p><p>All other content is a grey area between the two.</p><p>Hello SOE, I'm a Paladin, and my class needs to be <strong>desirable</strong>.</p>

Maergoth
08-18-2011, 11:37 AM
<p>No updates lately in any department, just a little concerning. Really hope for the proper changes before the next GU, doubt they will do anything drastic in between major patches.</p>

Loxus
08-18-2011, 12:28 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We're a defensive tank that is supposed to be equivelent to, or slightly behind a Guardian tanking ability (we actually don't know, the developers never told us the tank roles).  Yet we have the 2nd lowest level of proactive damage mitigation of all tanks.  We have our myth buff that only covers 10% incoming damage (the other 10% is completely reactive as we have to be damaged first) our ward that may cover 6K to 10K if we're lucky.  Stoneskin which only works on melee and can be struckthrough and Divine Aura which only covers damage below 50% of our max health.</p><p>I have no problem being a reactive tank mitigating damage after it happens, however, when we're getting one-shotted by mobs and thereby negating our reactive abilities completely being the 2nd most defensive tank, something is seriously wrong.</p><p>We either need more serious proactive damage mitigation abilities or we need our armor mitigation curve (strikethough resistance) seriously increased.</p><p>Some Ideas I'd "like" to see.</p><p>Arch heal should be equivilent to another lay-of-hands healing 100% health and power on a 5 min timer since everything we have to protect ourselves with involves power aside from the myth buff.</p><p>Our group heal should be a reactive heal of 3 to 5 triggers with an increase of 50% to 100% it's current value.</p><p>Holy Ground should be reverted back to RoK pre-nerf increasing 24 hate positions for 12 seconds.</p><p>Stonewall and Divine aura changed to 100% damage absorption and strikethrough immunity for 8 and 10 seconds respectively on the same time scales as current.</p><p>Strikethrough resistances added to all tanks stances not just pallys. (or DX stances all together they're really rather pointless at this point in the game).</p><p>Pledge of Armorment should be changed to a raid-wide crit mit buff.</p></blockquote><p>this is almost entirely comprised of over the top suggestions... And I am a raiding pali...</p><p>add a potency buff to amends... would give the scout or mage that is jacked into being in the OT or MT group a reason to want to be there as apposed to a more dps focussed group. Tada some useful utility <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> I would even go so far as to say you could trade the transfer % for that Potency (or crit bonus would be better imo) as this has always been a bit of a peeve for the other tanks who have a bit harder time with agro as a whole. Losing 20% of that to give 20% CB or Pot to the person recieving that buff would fix this and give some extra "want" for a paladin.</p><p>The change to our reflect allowing it to be cast every two minutes is a actually a great change that will help us perform our role as a tank in raids without over powering that ability. One more way to at least lower the damage of an aoe that can one shot us would be close to on par with the other tanks. Easily done by changing Devout Sacrament or Lay on Hands to a ward that wards around 25K (increasing the recast if it is devout sacrament naturally). No we will not have stoneskins like some of the other tanks but really that is why we have heals (or life taps for the sk). We don't prevent all the damage because we can realistically help to bring the health back to full when it is lost. This is a simple change to the type of healing ability and just a trade off in the form of total healing in the case of Lay on Hands or a bit longer recast for devout sacrament.</p><p>As a paladin we have a much harder time with mem wiping mobs... Simply adding another possition to holy ground (to make it on par with the SK positionals in aoe). We would still realistically be lacking in the snap taunts area but this would just wind up being the weakest area for the paladin as we can hold normal agro better then the rest. Constant agro vs snap agro /shrug</p><p>If we want real changes to be made we need doable suggestions. I have no issues giving up some of what we do for these changes.</p></blockquote><p>If all the suggestions I made actually made it into game, then yes, it would be over the top (I would be tickled pink though).  However, I attempted to get Xelgad a selection of possible changes (maybe one or two) to keep from pigeon-holing ourselves. </p><p>Face it, the one of the biggest reasons we're here now is because they did away with Stonewill on gear.  The loss of that stat alone has really shown how weak we really are in reactive damage recovery and front end damage mitigation and I think the SF changes didn't take into account how much this stat was really holding us up.</p><p>Honestly, I think we are being disasteriously short-sighted here.  Do we need a lot of big changes?  No, but we could definitely use one or two large changes specifically in proactive damage mitigation otherwise we are going to continue to slip into the backround and continue to loose disirability.  The change to our reflect was a great step, but what about melee based attacks and snap agro for the memwipes?  Or the fact that all our protective abilities can't be cast without power?</p><p>Personally I'd say revert Holy ground back to ROK pre-nerf format, and make Stonewall 100% damage strikethrough immune for their given recast and duration and and another 5K to our ward I'd be happy as a clam.</p><p>Would I love something done with our pathetic group heal, our worthless pledge of armorment, whatever you want to call Arch heal, and group proc buff in our wis line (can't remember the name); you bet, but I can live them if we were given the changes mentioned.  I still think it's being too short-sighted and we'll be right back here next year with the next change of gear. </p><p>We have two choices here, either push to increase our proactive damage mitigation, or push to increase our reactive healing for recovery.  Either direction is fine with me as long as it leads us to being successful in our role. </p>

Maergoth
08-18-2011, 02:55 PM
<p>Recovery is not an issue, we have the best recovery ability in the game. I don't even know why you would mention this. Our issues lie with one shots alone. Not fixable by strikethrough immunity or a slightly larger ward amount.</p><p>We're talking 100k+ AOE hits, post wards. Stoneskin / DI is the only solution to that.</p><p>Holy ground prenerf was overpowered, to give it back would be overpowered. I don't want overpowered, I want desireable. Our class doesn't need to be overpowered, it needs to be desireable. Utility is key.</p><p>The simple fact that you think we need help with melee attacks currently is concerning enough to make me wonder why you're trying to suggest changes to a class you're having trouble with. Stonewill gear? Really? Did you ever do Wing 3? I had every piece of stonewill imagineable and I barely was able to stay afloat on XYZ. Saalax? No chance.</p>

Boethius_Permafrost
08-18-2011, 03:17 PM
<p>So if the raid tanking mechanic is "time your saves to block the automatic kills" then all tanks need the saves to do that.  I don't know if that is a content design issue or just a lack of communication between content and class designers?</p>

Yimway
08-18-2011, 03:31 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So if the raid tanking mechanic is "time your saves to block the automatic kills" then all tanks need the saves to do that.  I don't know if that is a content design issue or just a lack of communication between content and class designers?</p></blockquote><p>I disagre, if all tanks get this ability, then all tanks should get every ability.</p><p>I stated previously in this thread the reasonable amount of damage prevents crusaders should get and on what max reuse timers.  They should be able to cover more than 50% on their own, probably closer to 75% of them, and the remaining odd hit covered by the many targetable stoneskins avaiable from other classes.  If we're going to give enough of these abilities to every class, then other tanks need to get alot more stuff to.</p>

Boli32
08-18-2011, 05:25 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Recovery is not an issue, we have the best recovery ability in the game. I don't even know why you would mention this. Our issues lie with one shots alone. Not fixable by strikethrough immunity or a slightly larger ward amount.</p><p>We're talking 100k+ AOE hits, post wards. Stoneskin / DI is the only solution to that.</p><p>Holy ground prenerf was overpowered, to give it back would be overpowered. I don't want overpowered, I want desireable. Our class doesn't need to be overpowered, it needs to be desireable. Utility is key.</p></blockquote><p>Bingo..... quoting just to make a point</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So if the raid tanking mechanic is "time your saves to block the automatic kills" then all tanks need the saves to do that.  I don't know if that is a content design issue or just a lack of communication between content and class designers?</p></blockquote><p>I disagre, if all tanks get this ability, then all tanks should get every ability.</p><p>I stated previously in this thread the reasonable amount of damage prevents crusaders should get and on what max reuse timers.  They should be able to cover more than 50% on their own, probably closer to 75% of them, and the remaining odd hit covered by the many targetable stoneskins avaiable from other classes.  If we're going to give enough of these abilities to every class, then other tanks need to get alot more stuff to.</p></blockquote><p>Some fighters *do* have the option to block MOST of the damage THAT is the issue. when one fighter can block 80% and other block 50% and a paladin block 20% then the choice who will tank is obvious.</p>

Maergoth
08-18-2011, 05:28 PM
<p>So far, EVERY TANK BESIDES PALADINS has a Stoneskin. We're not asking for strikethrough immunity like brawlers have, we're not asking for reinforcement or bloodletter. (Even though Guardians have mini amends now and SKs have a self ward)</p><p>Wait, every other class has absorbed the things that made our class desireable? Huh. I wonder if that's a problem.</p><p>Currently yes, raid content is "Time your saves to block automatic kills". That's all it takes to handle the primary mob on every fight this expansion. Some aren't as bad as others, but that's the only time an issue arises. The incapability of a paladin in this situation is ridiculous. As stated before, other tanks can survive sets of one shots before needing help. Paladins can survive two to three. One with Reflect, one with Manawall (Assuming we even have the mana to spare). Brawlers can survive an unlimited number, monks at least.</p><p>Since practically every AOE hits for upwards of 100k frontal on difficult content, it's guaranteed to kill. Some fights have two AOEs or a death touch component. On those, we're tapped after one round.</p><p>It's important to note that because other tanks have more, they can rotate their saves.</p><p><strong>Assuming 45 seconds between AOEs/One Shots and ~60% Reuse: </strong></p><p><span style="color: #993300;">Shadowknights</span> can Blood siphon (Ward, 1:30 recast, every other AOE), Respite (1:30 recast, 1 trigger stoneskin over 25% of max health) Reflect, (3:00 recast, every 4th AOE), Ward, Respite, manawall (2:00 Recast, every 3 AOES) , ward , respite, Reflect, ward, manawall, ward.. etc. If it's a mana intensive fight and they can't rotate manawall,  they can ALLOW DI TRIGGERS TO DROP because they have like 3 triggers. This isn't including priest saves or DI's, myth click or makeshift saves like furor to build up wards).</p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Paladins</span> looks more like this: Manawall, Reflect, Stonewall + Demonstration of Faith, (Divine Favor), Manawall, Divine Favor.. Then we start yelling in vent for DIs from priests, whether stonewall comes back or not because we can't risk dying using a wimpy last resort combo.</p><p>*NOTE* Stonewall is a 1m reuse, only blocks melee for ward purposes, not reliable but better to try while Divine Favor is still up.</p><p>Any questions?</p>

Bruener
08-18-2011, 05:50 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So far, EVERY TANK BESIDES PALADINS has a Stoneskin. We're not asking for strikethrough immunity like brawlers have, we're not asking for reinforcement or bloodletter. (Even though Guardians have mini amends now and SKs have a self ward)</p><p>Wait, every other class has absorbed the things that made our class desireable? Huh. I wonder if that's a problem.</p><p>Currently yes, raid content is "Time your saves to block automatic kills". That's all it takes to handle the primary mob on every fight this expansion. Some aren't as bad as others, but that's the only time an issue arises. The incapability of a paladin in this situation is ridiculous. As stated before, other tanks can survive sets of one shots before needing help. Paladins can survive two to three. One with Reflect, one with Manawall (Assuming we even have the mana to spare). Brawlers can survive an unlimited number, monks at least.</p><p>Since practically every AOE hits for upwards of 100k frontal on difficult content, it's guaranteed to kill. Some fights have two AOEs or a death touch component. On those, we're tapped after one round.</p><p>It's important to note that because other tanks have more, they can rotate their saves.</p><p><strong>Assuming 45 seconds between AOEs/One Shots and ~60% Reuse: </strong></p><p><span style="color: #993300;">Shadowknights</span> can Blood siphon (Ward, 1:30 recast, every other AOE), Reflect, (3:00 recast, every 4th AOE), Ward, manawall (2:00 Recast, every 3 AOES) , ward ,  Reflect, ward, manawall, ward.. etc. If it's a mana intensive fight and they can't rotate manawall, they can ALLOW DI TRIGGERS TO DROP because they have like 3 triggers. This isn't including priest saves or DI's, myth click or makeshift saves like furor to build up wards).</p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Paladins</span> looks more like this: Manawall, Reflect, Stonewall + Demonstration of Faith, (Divine Favor), Manawall, Divine Favor.. Then we start yelling in vent for DIs from priests, whether stonewall comes back or not because we can't risk dying using a wimpy last resort combo.</p><p>*NOTE* Stonewall is a 1m reuse, only blocks melee for ward purposes, not reliable but better to try while Divine Favor is still up.</p><p>Any questions?</p></blockquote><p>Only adjustment on your analysis I would make is counting Blood Siphon as a relaible save, I have died many times putting up Blood Siphon for an AE and having it eat right through it and my hps, it also is a detriment to your group when an AE is incoming because it drains all their health 25% causing a risk of killing group members.</p><p>But yeah, you think it is bad on some encounters now...have you pulled Gregore?  Gotta love massive physical AEs like every 18 sec with other huge elemental AE that non of them have casting bars showing.  So basically it is DP or Die as others have coined it.  More mechanics to favor Leathers really.</p><p>Good news though, the fix is nerfing encounters to not do as much damage so that it doesn't seem as imbalanced.</p><p>At least they nerfed the snot out of strike thru mechanics since that was just stupid.</p>

Boethius_Permafrost
08-18-2011, 05:51 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So if the raid tanking mechanic is "time your saves to block the automatic kills" then all tanks need the saves to do that.  I don't know if that is a content design issue or just a lack of communication between content and class designers?</p></blockquote><p>I disagre, if all tanks get this ability, then all tanks should get every ability.</p><p>I stated previously in this thread the reasonable amount of damage prevents crusaders should get and on what max reuse timers.  They should be able to cover more than 50% on their own, probably closer to 75% of them, and the remaining odd hit covered by the many targetable stoneskins avaiable from other classes.  If we're going to give enough of these abilities to every class, then other tanks need to get alot more stuff to.</p></blockquote><p>Do what?  By "this ability" you mean the basic tools to perform the role of tanking in this expansion, regardless of your specific tanking class?</p>

Buzzing
08-18-2011, 06:44 PM
<p>/wrists</p>

Maergoth
08-18-2011, 08:01 PM
<p>The reason blood siphon isn't saving you is because it's getting chewed through by melee attacks. Try coupling it with Furor or even Divine Aura and you'll notice it being much more reliable. This will also allow you to cast it much earlier, since it has a 15 second duration, without losing much off of it and giving your group time to recover before the AOE hits.</p><p>I have pulled everything anyone else has, so yes..  it's a joke. There is no grey area currently. Your class can either survive it, which most can, or your class can't, which is our situation. They wouldn't have to nerf it if they just varied the types of survivability required on a mob to mob basis.</p><p>How about a mob that hits much more often for less? How about an AOE that ticks hard and fast, but doesn't one-shot? You can still make it difficult with proper tweaking, but that doesn't really fix the fact that any tank can do anything but Paladins, and to a lesser extent Berserkers.</p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">'You tell Darkonx, 'Your class has too many saves..' Darkonx tells you, 'Lol, don't you have stonewall and heals?'</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">Shadowknights have better survivability on all fronts, better DPS, better utility, and better aggro tools. How is this not a </span><span style="font-size: medium; color: #ff0000;"><strong>big red flag?</strong></span><span style="color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span>I'm not a fan of irrational complaining, but how is this even remotely fair? People aren't complaining en masse because they simply don't know better, and because nothing gets done.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></p><p>The heal change was a good idea, but it was a drop of water in an endless sea. Dust in the wind, etc.</p>

Cellia
08-18-2011, 08:29 PM
<p>I think Paladin is a defensive Tank.</p><p>But  Pal can't survive from massive damage , specially Raid mob's some AoE(death blow)</p><p>We have devine favor , but only one time. So I need stoneskin skill.</p><p>I need Position up skill & Stoneskin....</p>

Buzzing
08-18-2011, 08:33 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think Paladin is a defensive Tank.</p><p>But  Pal can't survive from massive damage , specially Raid mob's some AoE(death blow)</p><p>We have devine favor , but only one time. So I need stoneskin skill.</p><p>I need Position up skill & Stoneskin....</p></blockquote><p>neet, thanks for poping in</p>

Boli32
08-19-2011, 08:53 AM
<p>Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.</p><p>The paladin ability to tank is FLAWED by the simple matter of we have to take the damage before we can actually heal it.</p><p>We are repeating the same thing over and over again because it is that big of an issue. lack of snaps can be a pain but we can *generally* get around it - constantly needing a rez when you are meant to be the "joint equal" or second most defensive tank in the game is not something we can no-longer ignore.</p><p>After all... who wants to invite a tank on raids when their ability to survive content is dubious at best. Only guardian's give less to a raid spot as far as DPS and utility is concerned and even then they have the snaps to deal with membluring adds (we do not) and recapture/got your back mean they have a solid selection of OTing tools; all paladins can bring to an OT spot is the ability to annoy the MT by pulling agro.</p>

Yimway
08-19-2011, 12:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.</p></blockquote><p>Stonewall should be a stoneskin, probably a 2 hit one.  I'd argue the change warants a recast change from 1:30 to ~1:45, but I'd not argue *that* strongly.  I think it would be even more flavor if it was castable on raid friend.</p><p>That simple change would go a long way to making the class more viable defensively.</p>

OrcSlayer96
08-19-2011, 02:34 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.</p></blockquote><p>Stonewall should be a stoneskin, probably a 2 hit one.  I'd argue the change warants a recast change from 1:30 to ~1:45, but I'd not argue *that* strongly.  I think it would be even more flavor if it was castable on raid friend.</p><p>That simple change would go a long way to making the class more viable defensively.</p></blockquote><p>Leave Stonewall alone on duration and make it strikethru immune, either that or make it 100% uncontetested dodge during those 8 seconds so it is another way to be a true save versus the RNG  death trap it is now.  With the native recast on this Super Endline on our Shadows tree coupled with aa's and decent recast of 40% or so it is up for those 1 minute timer mega hits like Smash.  If I wanted a 2 hit stoneskin i would roll a guardian have my selection of multiple ones on various timers.  Currently as a paladin i have Stonewall, and if i wish to penalize myself on losing zealous smite i can use the 1-2 hit wonder of manawall if my power is at its peak(the times you need it are usually against mobs with power drains).  Instead of asking to nerf my class on test Atan, maybe you need to look at your own...</p>

Yimway
08-19-2011, 02:43 PM
<p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.</p></blockquote><p>Stonewall should be a stoneskin, probably a 2 hit one.  I'd argue the change warants a recast change from 1:30 to ~1:45, but I'd not argue *that* strongly.  I think it would be even more flavor if it was castable on raid friend.</p><p>That simple change would go a long way to making the class more viable defensively.</p></blockquote><p> Instead of asking to nerf my class on test Atan, maybe you need to look at your own...</p></blockquote><p>How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? </p><p>I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?</p>

OrcSlayer96
08-19-2011, 03:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ability to heal damage does NOT equal ability to survive content as you cannot cast heals when dead.</p></blockquote><p>Stonewall should be a stoneskin, probably a 2 hit one.  I'd argue the change warants a recast change from 1:30 to ~1:45, but I'd not argue *that* strongly.  I think it would be even more flavor if it was castable on raid friend.</p><p>That simple change would go a long way to making the class more viable defensively.</p></blockquote><p> Instead of asking to nerf my class on test Atan, maybe you need to look at your own...</p></blockquote><p>How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? </p><p>I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?</p></blockquote><p>wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.  All Stonewall needs is to be strikethru immune and everything else on it stays the same.  You have megaward classes confused as that is the shadowknight aa, understandable as the devs usually confuse our two classes when they want to adjust aa's anyways.</p><p>Funny that guardians seem like everything is "right" with the fact they have a mini amends hate siphon ala amends, but when paladins ask to have their only true stoneskin fixed they want to come into the thread asking for longer recasts and reduced duration for a imiginary improvement on raiding content.  There is other items they need tweaking like the proposed heal on intercept aa that takes a min 40 secs to hit the target and the complete inability to grasp that arch heal in its current form has been relatively worthless as a paladin endline since the heal crit nerf hit fighters and was highly useless before.  There was a idea of having Arch Heal changed to a 2-3 all damage stoneskin on a 1.5 to 2 min recast among others but havent seen anything on test to support the devs even looking at this aa.  Would have been nice also while they changed the knights stance aa to not effect ranged weapons that they changed the use to apply the bonus to primary slot only, allowing 2 handers or 1 hander the increase.  It would counter warrior 20% higher crit bonus they have and be competitive to a dual weilding warrior versus 2 hander crusader.</p><p>They should have changed lay on hands aa to be a mush larger reduction on power used, with the final 5th rank causing no power used like the original version was before they changed base recast on it and harm touch and left sk harm touch with no power needed to be cast.  The demonstation of faith ward aa should have a mit buff that lasts 24 secs regardless if the ward is used at max 5 ranks and cannot stack with itself being as the best the recast can be is 30 seconds.  Our death prevent aa should have at 5 points max rank a reduced recast of at least 15 secs in addition to removal of stifle/daze penalty we have on it.</p><p>Our shared concentrator in the crusader line should have a small amount of plus weapon and spell skills to help out the crusader's shared casting of combat arts/autoattack and spells and unlike the focus bonus we recieve when we drop below 50% health this would be on at all times.</p><p>These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Yimway
08-19-2011, 03:45 PM
<p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? </p><p>I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?</p></blockquote><p>wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.</p><p>These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I've read the thread and raided on my paladin enough to know the issue isn't surviving MA's, all plate tanks suffer that nearly the same.  What everyone repeatedly complains about is enough abilities to survive the OMG PWN 1-Shot aoes that come on predictable timers.  I understand you don't feel that is where the class lacks in tanking, but it seems most of the raiding paladins I recognize in this thread do.</p><p>Several of the other ideas involved heal conversions to wards.  After considering these proposed sollutions and how they will impact things outside of raiding, it is the wrong solution to the right problem.  If you want raid survivability tools, those are spike preventers that do little benefit outside of raids.  If you don't want more raid survivability, fine.</p><p>If you want to be competitive with guardian and brawlers, you need more abilty to combat damage that would otherwise one-shot you.  I'm honestly at a loss how you don't see that, and I'd like to see from others how they feel about it.</p><p>For the record, I've hated that 'amends-lite' since the idea was introduced, it should be removed from the game.</p><p>*Also, stonewall doesn't need strikethru immunity as they're tweaking back strikethru in general.</p>

OrcSlayer96
08-19-2011, 04:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? </p><p>I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?</p></blockquote><p>wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.</p><p>These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I've read the thread and raided on my paladin enough to know the issue isn't surviving MA's, all plate tanks suffer that nearly the same.  What everyone repeatedly complains about is enough abilities to survive the OMG PWN 1-Shot aoes that come on predictable timers.  I understand you don't feel that is where the class lacks in tanking, but it seems most of the raiding paladins I recognize in this thread do.</p><p>Several of the other ideas involved heal conversions to wards.  After considering these proposed sollutions and how they will impact things outside of raiding, it is the wrong solution to the right problem.  If you want raid survivability tools, those are spike preventers that do little benefit outside of raids.  If you don't want more raid survivability, fine.</p><p>If you want to be competitive with guardian and brawlers, you need more abilty to combat damage that would otherwise one-shot you.  I'm honestly at a loss how you don't see that, and I'd like to see from others how they feel about it.</p><p>For the record, I've hated that 'amends-lite' since the idea was introduced, it should be removed from the game.</p><p>*Also, stonewall doesn't need strikethru immunity as they're tweaking back strikethru in general.</p></blockquote><p>You must have misundertood me then, when you proposed a any hit 2 hit stoneskin, you are ignoring the fact that any name is multiattacking before the big hit we are trying to protect ourself from.  Many of these big hits requires the mob to hit you for the effect to hit.  I am not talking about focus damage failures but similar effect like the kreeger fight in kraytoc's where the mob places a curse on you and if he hits you a attack smash occurs and kills you if your death prevent is not up.  Stonewall in current form allows a strikthru name to bypass and still hit you making the smash kill you.  For spell based attacks, Stonewall never before protected you unless you want to count whatever autoattacks the mobs are doing during the spell hit.  Your proposal of extending the stonewall to additional recast and 1-2 hits only makes it highly unlikely it can ever absorb the "big hit" among the other attacks incoming.  Tweaking strikethru on names does not mean elimination, for all we know it is 1% less strikethru then they have before as no numbers are released.</p><p>As far as the assumption that i do not want more survival against one shots, that is incorrect again.  I just do not feel changing Stonewall to your version accomplishes this.  As i said in a post above that you failed to quote, change the arch heal endline in paladins to a 2-3 hit all damage stoneskin and it would be infinitely more useful than its current state.</p>

Buzzing
08-19-2011, 04:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? </p><p>I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?</p></blockquote><p>wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.</p><p>These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I've read the thread and raided on my paladin enough to know the issue isn't surviving MA's, all plate tanks suffer that nearly the same.  What everyone repeatedly complains about is enough abilities to survive the OMG PWN 1-Shot aoes that come on predictable timers.  I understand you don't feel that is where the class lacks in tanking, but it seems most of the raiding paladins I recognize in this thread do.</p><p>Several of the other ideas involved heal conversions to wards.  After considering these proposed sollutions and how they will impact things outside of raiding, it is the wrong solution to the right problem.  If you want raid survivability tools, those are spike preventers that do little benefit outside of raids.  If you don't want more raid survivability, fine.</p><p>If you want to be competitive with guardian and brawlers, you need more abilty to combat damage that would otherwise one-shot you.  I'm honestly at a loss how you don't see that, and I'd like to see from others how they feel about it.</p><p>For the record, I've hated that 'amends-lite' since the idea was introduced, it should be removed from the game.</p><p>*Also, stonewall doesn't need strikethru immunity as they're tweaking back strikethru in general.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, Atan is correct here. Stonewall will be much more effective as is considering the nerf to strikethrew. He is also correct that keeping the heal flavor of paladins and changing some of the heals to be a ward would have a big impact on our roles outside of raiding. Meaning we would dominate group content which is not the solution either. On top of that he is correct to say that most tanks are fairly equal at surviving multi attacks. A good 1:30 stoneskin (2 or 3 hits, maybe 5 seconds at it's greatest) would be the most balanced solution. As much as I would love more snap agro Boli is correct in saying that we get by (though barely) and is a lower concern then the ability to live the one shots.</p><p>I need something that stops the one shot wonder.</p>

Loxus
08-19-2011, 04:02 PM
<p>I think we're all pretty much talking about the same outcome with slightly different pathways to reach the desired endstate.  In which case I consede to Boli and Maer selected direction given their level of experience and the fact that they are probably 2 of the 3 most respected Pallys in the game. </p><p>I'm on board with their ideas for the changes we need.</p>

Buzzing
08-19-2011, 04:04 PM
<p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How is that proposal a nerf? Improving stonewall to work off more than a melee hit is a substantial improvement.  I suggested the 2 hit so that an odd melee swing right as some nasty spike is due wouldn't result in a squishy pool of dead paladin. The recast time proposed plus the endline mentioned affords enough ability to block most of the one-hit wonder damage, which correct me if I'm wrong is what most paladins are asking for? </p><p>I'm assuming you prefer some mega-ward instead that would have far more reaching consiquences outside of raiding, right?</p></blockquote><p>wrong again my friend, Stonewall was made for physical hits and as you well know every mob worth anything has mutiattack like crazy, your proposal nerfs us from 8 seconds of autoattack protection to maybe even half a second.  With the change in the INT endline recast, we will have a tool back to shave off the high end damage, but large ca's/ melee hits usually blow past stonewall in its current form.</p><p>These are a few of the ideas i have that also other paladins have posted to tweak our class.  If we are suppose to be competitive to guardians then we need the base skills to do so and the old response that we have amends is no longer applicable.  Have a nice day tho...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I've read the thread and raided on my paladin enough to know the issue isn't surviving MA's, all plate tanks suffer that nearly the same.  What everyone repeatedly complains about is enough abilities to survive the OMG PWN 1-Shot aoes that come on predictable timers.  I understand you don't feel that is where the class lacks in tanking, but it seems most of the raiding paladins I recognize in this thread do.</p><p>Several of the other ideas involved heal conversions to wards.  After considering these proposed sollutions and how they will impact things outside of raiding, it is the wrong solution to the right problem.  If you want raid survivability tools, those are spike preventers that do little benefit outside of raids.  If you don't want more raid survivability, fine.</p><p>If you want to be competitive with guardian and brawlers, you need more abilty to combat damage that would otherwise one-shot you.  I'm honestly at a loss how you don't see that, and I'd like to see from others how they feel about it.</p><p>For the record, I've hated that 'amends-lite' since the idea was introduced, it should be removed from the game.</p><p>*Also, stonewall doesn't need strikethru immunity as they're tweaking back strikethru in general.</p></blockquote><p>You must have misundertood me then, when you proposed a any hit 2 hit stoneskin, you are ignoring the fact that any name is multiattacking before the big hit we are trying to protect ourself from.  Many of these big hits requires the mob to hit you for the effect to hit.  I am not talking about focus damage failures but similar effect like the kreeger fight in kraytoc's where the mob places a curse on you and if he hits you a attack smash occurs and kills you if your death prevent is not up.  Stonewall in current form allows a strikthru name to bypass and still hit you making the smash kill you.  For spell based attacks, Stonewall never before protected you unless you want to count whatever autoattacks the mobs are doing during the spell hit.  Your proposal of extending the stonewall to additional recast and 1-2 hits only makes it highly unlikely it can ever absorb the "big hit" among the other attacks incoming.  Tweaking strikethru on names does not mean elimination, for all we know it is 1% less strikethru then they have before as no numbers are released.</p><p>As far as the assumption that i do not want more survival against one shots, that is incorrect again.  I just do not feel changing Stonewall to your version accomplishes this.  As i said in a post above that you failed to quote, change the arch heal endline in paladins to a 2-3 hit all damage stoneskin and it would be infinitely more useful than its current state.</p></blockquote><p>auto attacks thrashing your stoneskins is something all the tanks face, it would then be balanced across. This I would be fine with.</p>

Yimway
08-19-2011, 04:14 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>A good 1:30 stoneskin (2 or 3 hits, maybe 5 seconds at it's greatest) would be the most balanced solution. <p>I need something that stops the one shot wonder.</p></blockquote><p>Having been timing a 3 shot stoneskin for years, I'm confident 1-2 is enough.  With the cast bars and obvious animations now, it is not hard to get them in precisely when they are needed.  Rarely is one shot consumed before I need it, much less 2. With stonewall changed + the endline block, the death prevent becomes more of a stop-gap than something you rely on to prevent damage.</p><p>Paldin natural DR from myth, plus the instant heal, plus their own healing ability provides sufficiently equal footing on MA damage.</p><p>The alternative proposed change to Divine Aura could be done instead, however I feel the stonewall change would benefit Paladins more.  We'd get a longer survive time with DA, but the long recast is required due to the longer duratoin of the ability.  If its re-use was dropped enough to solve the paladin problem, its effectiveness would have to be greatly decreased as well.</p><p>Lastly, I would prefer archheal changed to provide an extra tick on Divine Favor.  This might be controversial to those that don't raid, but its the right direction for a crusader IMO.</p>

Buzzing
08-19-2011, 04:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Having been timing a 3 shot stoneskin for years, I'm confident 1-2 is enough.  With the cast bars and obvious animations now, it is not hard to get them in precisely when they are needed.  Rarely is one shot consumed before I need it, much less 2. With stonewall changed + the endline block, the death prevent becomes more of a stop-gap than something you rely on to prevent damage.</p><p>Paldin natural DR from myth, plus the instant heal, plus their own healing ability provides sufficiently equal footing on MA damage.</p><p>The alternative proposed change to Divine Aura could be done instead, however I feel the stonewall change would benefit Paladins more.  We'd get a longer survive time with DA, but the long recast is required due to the longer duratoin of the ability.  If its re-use was dropped enough to solve the paladin problem, its effectiveness would have to be greatly decreased as well.</p><p>Lastly, I would prefer archheal changed to provide an extra tick on Divine Favor.  This might be controversial to those that don't raid, but its the right direction for a crusader IMO.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p><p>an extra tick on divine favor and fix DA to be half the duration and actually prevent the other half of the damage would give SK and Pali the <span style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: underline;">CHANGES</span> that we need to be competitive in the end game.</p><p>I highlight changes as we don't actually need to be boosted just tweeked to match the current content.</p><p>P.S. Arch Heal is useless so the extra tick would be extremely worth taking if it is changed.</p>

OrcSlayer96
08-19-2011, 04:37 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Having been timing a 3 shot stoneskin for years, I'm confident 1-2 is enough.  With the cast bars and obvious animations now, it is not hard to get them in precisely when they are needed.  Rarely is one shot consumed before I need it, much less 2. With stonewall changed + the endline block, the death prevent becomes more of a stop-gap than something you rely on to prevent damage.</p><p>Paldin natural DR from myth, plus the instant heal, plus their own healing ability provides sufficiently equal footing on MA damage.</p><p>The alternative proposed change to Divine Aura could be done instead, however I feel the stonewall change would benefit Paladins more.  We'd get a longer survive time with DA, but the long recast is required due to the longer duratoin of the ability.  If its re-use was dropped enough to solve the paladin problem, its effectiveness would have to be greatly decreased as well.</p><p>Lastly, I would prefer archheal changed to provide an extra tick on Divine Favor.  This might be controversial to those that don't raid, but its the right direction for a crusader IMO.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p><p>an extra tick on divine favor and fix DA to be half the duration and actually prevent the other half of the damage would give SK and Pali the <span style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: underline;">CHANGES</span> that we need to be competitive in the end game.</p><p>I highlight changes as we don't actually need to be boosted just tweeked to match the current content.</p><p>P.S. Arch Heal is useless so the extra tick would be extremely worth taking if it is changed.</p></blockquote><p>If Stonewall is kept at the same recast as current and changed to a 3 hit all damage stoneskin, then it would be perfect, changing it to a 1 hit stoneskin and no other options to back it up would keep us still at the back of the line on comabtting the one hot kills.  I also like the extra trigger on Divine favor to replace the small heal of arch heal endline as like many others stated the current arch heal is worthless.  If Divine Aura duration was has halved to make it 100% stoneskin it would be a small price to pay as the current form does not scale at all from group to raid.  Would the SF addition to divine aura need to be tweaked to accomadate the change too?</p>

Buzzing
08-19-2011, 04:42 PM
<p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If Stonewall is kept at the same recast as current and changed to a 3 hit all damage stoneskin, then it would be perfect, changing it to a 1 hit stoneskin and no other options to back it up would keep us still at the back of the line on comabtting the one hot kills.  I also like the extra trigger on Divine favor to replace the small heal of arch heal endline as like many others stated the current arch heal is worthless.  If Divine Aura duration was has halved to make it 100% stoneskin it would be a small price to pay as the current form does not scale at all from group to raid.  Would the SF addition to divine aura need to be tweaked to accomadate the change too?</p></blockquote><p>I think the only other change would be if it was given more then the single trigger increase. If you put two more on it (3 total like bloodletter) you would need to make it not cast in combat as many of the other saves are. Adding one more trigger isn't to big and we give up another end line.</p><p>DA would be my prefered path as it would be a boost to the SK as well and though they are in a better position then paladins the ability is broken as it stands when raiding.</p>

Boli32
08-19-2011, 04:57 PM
<p>Stonewall: should stay the same</p><p>BUT on the herioc tree there is an AA which effects Stonewall / Furor - currently reduces recast by 20%</p><p>What they should do is at 10 ranks they should:</p><p>- add a SINGLE MAGICAL stoneskin trigger with a 30% max health requirement to Stonewall</p><p>and just to make it fair</p><p>- add a SINGLE MAGICAL REFLECT to furor (given its recast is about double that of Stonewall and SKs are the more offensive tank.</p><p>That wouldn't step on anyones toes and add a NEEDED stoneskin to the paaldin class... it only needs to be magical stoneskin and fits more as the crusader class than pure physcial stoneskin or a stoneskin to work on both. Recast will be 45s at cap.. but more likely to be ~ 50s so its every other AoE (given average 45s recast)</p><p>Arch heal should do somethign healing wise... maybe for a short duration 10-15s) every 2min or somethgin massively increase all heals AND wards on the target... less reliable than a pure stoneskin and keeping with the flavour of the paladin class.</p>

Yimway
08-19-2011, 05:05 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Stonewall: should stay the same</p><p>BUT on the herioc tree there is an AA which effects Stonewall / Furor - currently reduces recast by 20%</p><p>What they should do is at 10 ranks they should:</p><p>- add a SINGLE MAGICAL stoneskin trigger with a 30% max health requirement to Stonewall</p><p>and just to make it fair</p><p>- add a SINGLE MAGICAL REFLECT to furor (given its recast is about double that of Stonewall and SKs are the more offensive tank.</p><p>Arch heal should do somethign healing wise... maybe for a short duration 10-15s) every 2min or somethgin massively increase all heals AND wards on the target... less reliable than a pure stoneskin and keeping with the flavour of the paladin class.</p></blockquote><p>I lke this alternative as well.  I really like it if this version of Arch Heal was castable on self or raid friend.</p>

OrcSlayer96
08-19-2011, 05:16 PM
<p>I like Boli's ideas also, but it would still be nice to add a extra trigger on Divine Favor in the paladin tree where most paladins only spend 2-3 of 5 points into it(the focus plus reuse % makes it where you normally do not need anymore points).  Toss the extra trigger at 5 points max rank and it would be perfect.</p>

Buzzing
08-19-2011, 05:24 PM
<p>That works too.</p><p>Thanks Boli</p>

Maergoth
08-19-2011, 10:01 PM
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">I've been frustrated with this thread enough to leave it alone for a day. No dev response, and endless landslides of suggestions.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Suggestions are good, but you have to realize.. balance is in their hands, and specifics are going to change. If you give them something to work with, they're going to assume you're looking after your own class unfairly. They will take your 2 hit stoneskin on a 1:30 recast and bastardize it into a 1 hit stoneskin on a 2 minute recast until an expansion later when it's fixed with a new AA or class focus.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">It's much better to point out the shortcomings than suggest changes to fix said shortcomings. They're not going to admit that some part time players know more about class balance than them, which is basically what adopting a player suggested change would do.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">On a lighter note, I'd like to thank Boli and Buzzing and a few others for keeping the reins on this for the last page or so of posts.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">As for Stonewall, I am all for adding to it, but not removing from it. The idea of a melee block and spell stoneskin in one ability is refreshing.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong>Seeing the final point in Heroic add a one trigger spell block would be amazing, since no one in their right mind would ever select a few seconds off of one save versus 10% reuse</strong>.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Changing it to ONLY be a stoneskin however restricts its uses.. keep in mind, this ability is currently one of the reasons we <strong>AREN'T</strong> bad at dealing with melee hits. Ditching it would surface a whole slew of new problems.. because these mobs DO melee hard as well.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">I don't like the extra trigger on our DI. Call me crazy, but it doesn't give us more rotation potential on saves, just a delay in when we will run out.  <strong>Lower reuse on it would be better.</strong></span></p>

Darkonx
08-20-2011, 02:51 AM
<p>Paladins blow right now. There's really no contesting that. The problem is they have the most passive damage reduction in game with their mythical, so it's a fine line to walk in terms of giving spike survivability as well.</p><p>First off, Shadowknights have TWO triggers on a DI that can NOT be recast in combat. Any more triggers on your DI would be OP considering the passive damage reduction that Paladins have.</p><p>Paladins do need a stoneskin. I'd suggest adding a single trigger stoneskin on a ~3 min recast, similar to a Shadowknights Respite as even a single stoneskin can go a long way to rotating abilitys. Obviously it would be modifiable, so would end up on a 1:40-1:50 recast with reuse calculated.</p><p>How the devs want to add it doesn't really matter. Right now a Paladin tanking any mob with a single true one shot AOE, much less two, is amusing.</p>

Irgun
08-20-2011, 06:29 AM
<p>Why I like the idea having a stoneskin around connected to archheal, I think it should add something like a huge damagereduction to incoming damage for a short duration + somekind of self-equillibrium if oneshots occur - so: if we are just taking reduced damage we could heal ourselves up + if self-equillibrium-trigger would go off healing us by,  dunno - maybe 65% or so, we could use our heals there too.</p><p>So, no stoneskin needed, oneshot-problem solved and a reliable ability where our heals come into play.</p><p>All you need is to define the reuse, duration, damage-reduction and heal-trigger to make it fine and balanced.</p><p>example:</p><p>Reuse: 2mins 30seconds</p><p>Duration: 8seconds</p><p>Damage reduction: reduces all incoming damage by 50%</p><p>Heal-trigger: if the target would take fatal damage it gets healed by 65%</p><p>If the reuse should be modifiable or not is another question, I`d say with these numbers: no</p>

Ufabao
08-20-2011, 07:00 AM
<p>mythical pet should last for 5 seconds, pops directly on top of the paladin and does not move, if u have a mob targetted when u cast it it uses a 1,000,000 position snap with a 1,000,000,000,000 hate taunt instantly, and casts a standard non-direct aoe prevent on the paladin, if no mob targetted it just gives u the aoe prevent</p><p>30 second reuse</p><p>make it happen devs.</p>

Maergoth
08-20-2011, 12:19 PM
<p>1,000,000 positions might be a little much..</p><p>Oh, it was a joke. Hard to tell with this thread, some peoples' concepts of balance are.. wrong.</p>

Darkonx
08-20-2011, 01:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why I like the idea having a stoneskin around connected to archheal, I think it should add something like a huge damagereduction to incoming damage for a short duration + somekind of self-equillibrium if oneshots occur - so: if we are just taking reduced damage we could heal ourselves up + if self-equillibrium-trigger would go off healing us by,  dunno - maybe 65% or so, we could use our heals there too.</p><p>So, no stoneskin needed, oneshot-problem solved and a reliable ability where our heals come into play.</p><p>All you need is to define the reuse, duration, damage-reduction and heal-trigger to make it fine and balanced.</p><p>example:</p><p>Reuse: 2mins 30seconds</p><p>Duration: 8seconds</p><p>Damage reduction: reduces all incoming damage by 50%</p><p>Heal-trigger: if the target would take fatal damage it gets healed by 65%</p><p>If the reuse should be modifiable or not is another question, I`d say with these numbers: no</p></blockquote><p>What's the point of anything else (eg, the damage reduction) if you're immune to death for that time period?</p><p>Bad idea. Giving any tank complete death immunity for 8 seconds is OP.</p>

Maergoth
08-20-2011, 05:01 PM
<p>Except, 8 second death immune wouldn't be OP whatsoever.  An 8 second stoneskin would be OP. I speak from experience, I use Bristlebane miracle which, strangely enough, isn't OP. Half the time I use it in rough situations and it doesn't do anything whatsoever. It wears off and I'm not better off, I haven't recovered wards or reactives, and the trigger wasn't consumed out of sheer luck.. leaving me to die to the antithesis of that luck shortly after.</p><p>Every save BESIDES death immunity has a recovery portion. You will come out of ANY OTHER SAVE with more wards and reactives than you would have had otherwise. This is why Death Immunity is not overpowered.</p><p>As for another unmodifiable save.. I disagree. I'd rather the numbers be softer with a modifiable reuse to actually give us a reason to get reuse for defensive purposes.</p>

Buzzing
08-20-2011, 05:11 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except, 8 second death immune wouldn't be OP whatsoever.  An 8 second stoneskin would be OP. I speak from experience, I use Bristlebane miracle which, strangely enough, isn't OP. Half the time I use it in rough situations and it doesn't do anything whatsoever. It wears off and I'm not better off, I haven't recovered wards or reactives, and the trigger wasn't consumed out of sheer luck.. leaving me to die to the antithesis of that luck shortly after.</p><p>Every save BESIDES death immunity has a recovery portion. You will come out of ANY OTHER SAVE with more wards and reactives than you would have had otherwise. This is why Death Immunity is not overpowered.</p><p>As for another unmodifiable save.. I disagree. I'd rather the numbers be softer with a modifiable reuse to actually give us a reason to get reuse for defensive purposes.</p></blockquote><p>YES!!! I thought I was the only one that used bristlebane! and your right though it helps of you would have died but does absolutely nothing else. A pali save like this would actually play exactly into how our mechanic works in general.</p><p>The holy nature of the class gives us a devine intervention if you would and prevents us from dieing. This would also make us need to use the rest of our heals for it to be an actual save and change very little in terms of solo play at all.</p><p>That actually would make perfect sence to have us just not die but still take damage, making us need to heal with the healers as we should have to but allowing us to live threw one shots.</p>

Irgun
08-20-2011, 06:26 PM
<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why I like the idea having a stoneskin around connected to archheal, I think it should add something like a huge damagereduction to incoming damage for a short duration + somekind of self-equillibrium if oneshots occur - so: if we are just taking reduced damage we could heal ourselves up + if self-equillibrium-trigger would go off healing us by,  dunno - maybe 65% or so, we could use our heals there too.</p><p>So, no stoneskin needed, oneshot-problem solved and a reliable ability where our heals come into play.</p><p>All you need is to define the reuse, duration, damage-reduction and heal-trigger to make it fine and balanced.</p><p>example:</p><p>Reuse: 2mins 30seconds</p><p>Duration: 8seconds</p><p>Damage reduction: reduces all incoming damage by 50%</p><p>Heal-trigger: if the target would take fatal damage it gets healed by 65%</p><p>If the reuse should be modifiable or not is another question, I`d say with these numbers: no</p></blockquote><p>What's the point of anything else (eg, the damage reduction) if you're immune to death for that time period?</p><p>Bad idea. Giving any tank complete death immunity for 8 seconds is OP.</p></blockquote><p>Add 1 trigger to the fatal damage part and its even more suitable for an archheal.</p><p>There are pretty much alot things out there which make tanks completely death immune for more than 8secs, if its a blessing (Marrs Barrier) or a myth clickie (wardens) or just some stoneskin through which no mob can burn within 8secs because you block a few hits within this time.</p>

Darkonx
08-21-2011, 02:36 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except, 8 second death immune wouldn't be OP whatsoever.  An 8 second stoneskin would be OP. I speak from experience, I use Bristlebane miracle which, strangely enough, isn't OP. Half the time I use it in rough situations and it doesn't do anything whatsoever. It wears off and I'm not better off, I haven't recovered wards or reactives, and the trigger wasn't consumed out of sheer luck.. leaving me to die to the antithesis of that luck shortly after.</p><p>Every save BESIDES death immunity has a recovery portion. You will come out of ANY OTHER SAVE with more wards and reactives than you would have had otherwise. This is why Death Immunity is not overpowered.</p><p>As for another unmodifiable save.. I disagree. I'd rather the numbers be softer with a modifiable reuse to actually give us a reason to get reuse for defensive purposes.</p></blockquote><p>YES!!! I thought I was the only one that used bristlebane! and your right though it helps of you would have died but does absolutely nothing else. A pali save like this would actually play exactly into how our mechanic works in general.</p><p>The holy nature of the class gives us a devine intervention if you would and prevents us from dieing. T<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>his would also make us need to use the rest of our heals for it to be an actual save</strong></em></span></span> and change very little in terms of solo play at all.</p><p>That actually would make perfect sence to have us just not die but still take damage, making us need to heal with the healers as we should have to but allowing us to live threw one shots.</p></blockquote><p>I think Paladins should shoot for something practical. This ability is not practical. Also, you say in your post that you would need to heal. I <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>BIU</strong></em></span>'d the section of the post that I am referencing.</p><p>If you are immune to death, you do not need heals, from any source. So no, you would not need to heal for it to be 'an actual save'. If you are immune to death then heals are pointless.</p><p>Paladins need a single hit stoneskin similar to respite that they can cycle for AE's. The reuse timer should be modifiable, as Maergoth said so reuse can be a defensive stat, and the timer should be around 2:30-3:00. This will give it a 1:20-1:40 reuse so it'll be usable to block an AE very other set. Respite I believe is 1:40ish with max reuse attainable on current endgame armor and an INQ in group.</p><p>My understanding was that something for one shot AE's was being asked for, not something that could potentially be used to negate things like co-op mechanics such as eight seconds of death immunity.</p>

Irgun
08-21-2011, 05:50 AM
<p>Since coop works if you got hit within the last 6seconds and adds up on both different targets you will just die after the 8secs have expired, so it wont be a tool to avoid coop-strike.</p><p>But I get the idea why its not so desirable, so change archheal to maybe only a big damagereduction + a ward thats based on reduced damage for that time.</p><p>Possibilities are nearly endless how to change this in order to have something reliable - but thats up to our devs to figure out what they (have to) want to pick for us.</p>

Boli32
08-21-2011, 08:09 AM
<p>I would say a 90s reuse ability with a single magical stoneskin trigger. Other tanks have numerous saves we have virtually none to balance us against guards and brawlers we need more than just a single ubbah ability every 3-5min.</p>

Mangano
08-21-2011, 11:19 AM
<p>I agree.</p><p>Damage preventing is needed more and more. Paladins can use some tweaks here.</p>

Maergoth
08-21-2011, 09:50 PM
<p>Well, update is Tuesday so unless they push some last minute changes through on Monday and test them for a day, feels bad man.</p><p>This doesn't get them off the hook though. I hate to stir the pot (no I don't), but keep making noise. They can only ignore common sense for so long before doing something useful for our class.</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong> The fact of the matter is, devs don't play Paladins.. and they don't ask or communicate with Paladins, so they don't know how to balance Paladins.</strong></p>

Bruener
08-21-2011, 09:59 PM
<p>I wouldn't expect anything more with 61.  Sounds like they are going to be delving more into the class balancing issues in between updates and probably a big chunk of 62.</p>

Fyang
08-21-2011, 10:14 PM
<p>I'd like to choose heal crit, problem solved.</p>

Bruener
08-21-2011, 10:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'd like to choose heal crit, problem solved.</p></blockquote><p>This isn't the problem though.  Heals and Lifetaps are never going to be able to compete and the problem is the spike damage prevention in todays game.</p><p>There is a reason that Brawlers own raiding right now.  They have a lot of tools on fast reuse to handle spike damage.  They were given more tools as an Emergency tank to be able to handle encounters even though they were a lot more squishy.  They are no longer squishy at all and take the same, or less damage...and still have all the spike damage prevention.</p><p>Guards, same thing.  Having a stoneskin to put up every round of AEs is huge in DoV to stay alive.</p><p>Crusaders/Zerks lack the tools.</p><p>Reducing LC is a start, although 2 min unmodifiable still is long for only 40% damage reduction on a single AE round.  They know it is an issue and fixes are coming.  Just not in 61 where they revamped all the EoF AA stuff.</p>

Maergoth
08-21-2011, 10:28 PM
<p>They just revamped it wrong is all, lol.</p><p>Heal crit overpowered them before the reuse change, it might actually help now if it applied to our ward.  Especially since wards are modified less by crit mit.. but it wouldn't fix the underlying issue.</p><ul><li>A save needs to keep you alive from whatever it intends to.</li><li> It also needs to have a recovery aspect, leaving you with more wards and reactives than you would have had without using it. </li><li>It also needs to have practical casting and reuse. Since every save has to be pre-emptive, to not have the ability to use it when it's needed is useless. Really long reuse saves are only useful when held onto and clicked reactively, and half the time unnecessarily. </li></ul><p>None of our saves meet all of those requirements, meaning we have no reliable saves. This is our survivability problem.</p><p>The rest of our problems are simple: Versatile unique snap aggro, and scaling, desireable utility.  Should read the thread before randomly asking for heal crits.</p>

Fyang
08-21-2011, 10:45 PM
<p>If we can get heal crit back, then one more ward ability and fix currently wards aa, survive problem solved.</p><p>Each defferient tank should have them own way to survive. Pal is a heal tank and stoneskin is guardian way.</p><p>We should ask for more wards and wards crit, make our class special.</p>

Boli32
08-22-2011, 05:51 AM
<p>The *only* way heals will solve our problem is if our ward was a *lot* higher... which will unbalance herioc content.</p><p>we *need* a stoneskin like effect ideally magical only added to a short recast ability - anythign less than that will be pure fail as we are (and still will be) the only defesive tank without the defensive tools to survive agro.</p>

Buzzing
08-22-2011, 12:51 PM
<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except, 8 second death immune wouldn't be OP whatsoever.  An 8 second stoneskin would be OP. I speak from experience, I use Bristlebane miracle which, strangely enough, isn't OP. Half the time I use it in rough situations and it doesn't do anything whatsoever. It wears off and I'm not better off, I haven't recovered wards or reactives, and the trigger wasn't consumed out of sheer luck.. leaving me to die to the antithesis of that luck shortly after.</p><p>Every save BESIDES death immunity has a recovery portion. You will come out of ANY OTHER SAVE with more wards and reactives than you would have had otherwise. This is why Death Immunity is not overpowered.</p><p>As for another unmodifiable save.. I disagree. I'd rather the numbers be softer with a modifiable reuse to actually give us a reason to get reuse for defensive purposes.</p></blockquote><p>YES!!! I thought I was the only one that used bristlebane! and your right though it helps of you would have died but does absolutely nothing else. A pali save like this would actually play exactly into how our mechanic works in general.</p><p>The holy nature of the class gives us a devine intervention if you would and prevents us from dieing. T<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>his would also make us need to use the rest of our heals for it to be an actual save</strong></em></span></span> and change very little in terms of solo play at all.</p><p>That actually would make perfect sence to have us just not die but still take damage, making us need to heal with the healers as we should have to but allowing us to live threw one shots.</p></blockquote><p>I think Paladins should shoot for something practical. This ability is not practical. Also, you say in your post that you would need to heal. I <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>BIU</strong></em></span>'d the section of the post that I am referencing.</p><p>If you are immune to death, you do not need heals, from any source. So no, you would not need to heal for it to be 'an actual save'. If you are immune to death then heals are pointless.</p><p>Paladins need a single hit stoneskin similar to respite that they can cycle for AE's. The reuse timer should be modifiable, as Maergoth said so reuse can be a defensive stat, and the timer should be around 2:30-3:00. This will give it a 1:20-1:40 reuse so it'll be usable to block an AE very other set. Respite I believe is 1:40ish with max reuse attainable on current endgame armor and an INQ in group.</p><p>My understanding was that something for one shot AE's was being asked for, not something that could potentially be used to negate things like co-op mechanics such as eight seconds of death immunity.</p></blockquote><p>I'm guessing you have never used the miracle we are talking about.</p><p>You still take all the damage in question, the only thing is does is ignore the shots that actually kill you, meaning you will still go all the way to red but you don't die. That means you need to green yourself or as soon as it wares off you die.</p><p>I would give a gigantic speach as to why this needs to be done but I am starting to sound like a broken record.</p><p><strong>Give Paladins the tools to live on par with our role.</strong></p><p>If nothing else destroy my pride and tell me I am the only tank left that can't tank any raid content and my role is a group tank. At least then it would be clear I need to do something else.</p>

Irgun
08-22-2011, 02:58 PM
<p>Dont think any changes will make it through till tuesday, so for the fuzz we got so far: revert it, so we at least can claim we got overlooked...</p>

Yimway
08-22-2011, 03:54 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The *only* way heals will solve our problem is if our ward was a *lot* higher... which will unbalance herioc content.</p><p>we *need* a stoneskin like effect ideally magical only added to a short recast ability - anythign less than that will be pure fail as we are (and still will be) the only defesive tank without the defensive tools to survive agro.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly this ^^^</p>

Buzzing
08-22-2011, 06:20 PM
<p>Having a large wards would in fact break group content.... hajkshldj fhjamsnvm,.sd/ ha sj;gh jscn</p><p>/headdesk</p><p>nvm</p>

Darkonx
08-22-2011, 06:24 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except, 8 second death immune wouldn't be OP whatsoever.  An 8 second stoneskin would be OP. I speak from experience, I use Bristlebane miracle which, strangely enough, isn't OP. Half the time I use it in rough situations and it doesn't do anything whatsoever. It wears off and I'm not better off, I haven't recovered wards or reactives, and the trigger wasn't consumed out of sheer luck.. leaving me to die to the antithesis of that luck shortly after.</p><p>Every save BESIDES death immunity has a recovery portion. You will come out of ANY OTHER SAVE with more wards and reactives than you would have had otherwise. This is why Death Immunity is not overpowered.</p><p>As for another unmodifiable save.. I disagree. I'd rather the numbers be softer with a modifiable reuse to actually give us a reason to get reuse for defensive purposes.</p></blockquote><p>YES!!! I thought I was the only one that used bristlebane! and your right though it helps of you would have died but does absolutely nothing else. A pali save like this would actually play exactly into how our mechanic works in general.</p><p>The holy nature of the class gives us a devine intervention if you would and prevents us from dieing. T<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>his would also make us need to use the rest of our heals for it to be an actual save</strong></em></span></span> and change very little in terms of solo play at all.</p><p>That actually would make perfect sence to have us just not die but still take damage, making us need to heal with the healers as we should have to but allowing us to live threw one shots.</p></blockquote><p>I think Paladins should shoot for something practical. This ability is not practical. Also, you say in your post that you would need to heal. I <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>BIU</strong></em></span>'d the section of the post that I am referencing.</p><p>If you are immune to death, you do not need heals, from any source. So no, you would not need to heal for it to be 'an actual save'. If you are immune to death then heals are pointless.</p><p>Paladins need a single hit stoneskin similar to respite that they can cycle for AE's. The reuse timer should be modifiable, as Maergoth said so reuse can be a defensive stat, and the timer should be around 2:30-3:00. This will give it a 1:20-1:40 reuse so it'll be usable to block an AE very other set. Respite I believe is 1:40ish with max reuse attainable on current endgame armor and an INQ in group.</p><p>My understanding was that something for one shot AE's was being asked for, not something that could potentially be used to negate things like co-op mechanics such as eight seconds of death immunity.</p></blockquote><p>I'm guessing you have never used the miracle we are talking about.</p><p>You still take all the damage in question, the only thing is does is ignore the shots that actually kill you, meaning you will still go all the way to red but you don't die. That means you need to green yourself or as soon as it wares off you die.</p><p>I would give a gigantic speach as to why this needs to be done but I am starting to sound like a broken record.</p><p><strong>Give Paladins the tools to live on par with our role.</strong></p><p>If nothing else destroy my pride and tell me I am the only tank left that can't tank any raid content and my role is a group tank. At least then it would be clear I need to do something else.</p></blockquote><p>It doesn't matter what color your health bar is, if you can not die. Are you saying paladins die to auto attack when the take the least damage in game? Your healers will keep you green, except for the 100k frontal AEs. So no, you wouldn't be healing yourself.</p><p>You can use it to negate co-op mechanics since a co-op only ticks for 6 seconds. So if you were to use this ~5 seconds after the adds spawn, they co-op you, you just live the duration of the 6s, essentially giving any offtank DOUBLE the time to pick up the mobs. It'd be incredibly OP.</p><p>What Paladins really need is what someone above posted, a single hit stoneskin to cycle for AEs. 90s is way, way, way too short, unless it's 90s unmodifiable, in which case ok. 180s modifiable would be equivelent to what SK's get.</p>

Buzzing
08-22-2011, 06:31 PM
<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It doesn't matter what color your health bar is, if you can not die. Are you saying paladins die to auto attack when the take the least damage in game? Your healers will keep you green, except for the 100k frontal AEs. So no, you wouldn't be healing yourself.</p><p>You can use it to negate co-op mechanics since a co-op only ticks for 6 seconds. So if you were to use this ~5 seconds after the adds spawn, they co-op you, you just live the duration of the 6s, essentially giving any offtank DOUBLE the time to pick up the mobs. It'd be incredibly OP.</p><p>What Paladins really need is what someone above posted, a single hit stoneskin to cycle for AEs. 90s is way, way, way too short, unless it's 90s unmodifiable, in which case ok. 180s modifiable would be equivelent to what SK's get.</p></blockquote><p>I deleted all the extra text...</p><p>a well timed stoneskin is more powerful, but I am getting a bit short winded from explaining this over and over again.</p><p>Yes we need a stoneskin to stop epic aoe one shot.</p><p>Trust me when I say there is more then one option to this. Really just pick the one that won't make all the other fighter complain until it is nerfed but will still allow me to do my job.</p><p>P.S. if you are always green and never get a heal off before your healers you need to tank something harder or get better at helping them heal. Our heals cast fairly fast at this point.</p>

Gungo
08-22-2011, 06:33 PM
<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You can use it to negate co-op mechanics since a co-op only ticks for 6 seconds. So if you were to use this ~5 seconds after the adds spawn, they co-op you, you just live the duration of the 6s, essentially giving any offtank DOUBLE the time to pick up the mobs. It'd be incredibly OP.</p><p>What Paladins really need is what someone above posted, a single hit stoneskin to cycle for AEs. 90s is way, way, way too short, unless it's 90s unmodifiable, in which case ok. 180s modifiable would be equivelent to what SK's get.</p></blockquote><p>Are you suggesting paladins to be as defensive as shadowknights? I think a single target stoneskin modifiable 90 sec recast either spell only or physical/spell damage with a 20% damage threshold. Would make paladins comparable to tanking like monks/guards currently. Anything less and they are not really a defensive option and unable to handle the MULTIPLE aoe/frontal death effects.</p>

Maergoth
08-22-2011, 07:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If nothing else destroy my pride and tell me I am the only tank left that can't tank any raid content and my role is a group tank. At least then it would be clear I need to do something else.</p></blockquote><p>This, thanks.</p><p>Also, Darkon doesn't know what he's talking about. I don't generally enjoy saying that about a guildy, but he thinks temporarily bypassing co-op mechanics is overpowered. Yet, he still uses Tribunal.</p><p>He doesn't tank adds, he doesn't play a Paladin, so it's understandable.</p><p>Your whole argument against death immunity is a bypassing of a failure effects, yet last expansion you could do that with LC on 90% of failure effects.</p><p>Additionally, you're assuming that it's possible to have this ability up in the rare event that co op even comes into play (offtank failure, or memwipe to you) when on any reasonable recast, it will be used every time its up.</p><p>Furthermore, the duration of co-op strike is determined by the duration the mob is beating on someone. If you have aggro for 3 seconds, co op technically lasts 8-9 seconds, completely trouncing any avoiding the death. Oh, and you'd come out of it with zero wards and no reactives even if the offtank got the mob back immediately.</p><p><span>"Are you saying paladins die to auto attack when the take the least damage in game? Your healers will keep you green, except for the 100k frontal AEs. So no, you wouldn't be healing yourself." </span></p><p><span><strong> Our "least damage in game" only applies after wards and reactives. That's like saying druids are the best healers in the game, because their raw heal potential is higher. We have 10% melee damage reduction on myth buff. Everything else is too little icing on the cake.</strong></span></p><p><span><strong></strong></span></p><p>I don't think death immunity is the best solution, but the fact is, it IS A SOLUTION. You can't denounce it based off of misinformation. Not a single encounter in the game would be simplified or changed in any way because the paladin has a 5 second death immunity. Bristlebane miracle is 15 seconds and not even good enough for most people to consider.</p><p>This ignorance and fear of overpowering seems to only apply to the Paladin class. Everyone else has had their tides of excellence. We're just asking for desirability.</p><p>I don't care what other tanks get. I don't care if someone gets their feelings hurt. We have to be able to do our job as tanks, and contribute to a raid.</p><p>We should be the second most defensive tank in the game, NOT "on par" with shadowknights.</p>

Buzzing
08-22-2011, 07:13 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This ignorance and fear of overpowering seems to only apply to the Paladin class. Everyone else has had their tides of excellence. We're just asking for desirability.</p><p>I don't care what other tanks get. I don't care if someone gets their feelings hurt. We have to be able to do our job as tanks, and contribute to a raid.</p><p>We should be the second most defensive tank in the game, NOT "on par" with shadowknights.</p></blockquote><p>I mentioned beig ignored in the tank thread in here. </p><p>I'm not actually sure why the fear over the Paladin class considering all we are asking for is to be desirable and able to accomplish our jobs. Never have we asked to be the only tank choice.</p><p>As much as I would like to say I agree with you on obeing the second most defensive tank in game... but really if our defencive counterpart is a guard we should be on par with that as a defencive tank and not behond them. Really our dps is about the same and we have the same if not less utility.</p>

Maergoth
08-22-2011, 08:33 PM
<p>That's the thing though. People are posting about other classes compared to theirs, or their own class compared to someone elses.</p><p>I'm not comparing anything. My statements are solely considering our class and our role within current raid content. We are incapable of performing desirably. </p><p><strong>We can't take the big AOEs.</strong></p><p><strong>Our snap aggro is awful.</strong></p><p><strong>Our utility/DPS doesn't scale properly and isn't desirable.  </strong></p><p>All worse than any other tank, if you want to compare. Hopefully with the update being delayed, they'll show some compassion/consideration and throw us a bone.  <em><strong><span style="font-size: xx-large; color: #ff0000;">HINT HINT</span></strong></em></p>

Buzzing
08-22-2011, 09:55 PM
<p>That is the best way to look at all of this that I have heard yet. Plain observation, regardless of comparison to other classes.</p>

Irgun
08-23-2011, 12:59 PM
<p>/bump <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

Buzzing
08-23-2011, 01:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/bump <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>lol I debated saying something in here.... really all that needed to be said has been said.</p>

Maergoth
08-23-2011, 01:51 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/bump <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>lol I debated saying something in here.... really all that needed to be said has been said.</p></blockquote><p>Not true. A dev has not said "Oh man, sorry guys.. we forgot people still played paladins lol"</p>

Buzzing
08-23-2011, 01:59 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/bump <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>lol I debated saying something in here.... really all that needed to be said has been said.</p></blockquote><p>Not true. A dev has not said "Oh man, sorry guys.. we forgot people still played paladins lol"</p></blockquote><p>HAHAHA</p><p>oh man that would make my day for sure</p>

Yimway
08-23-2011, 02:46 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/bump <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>lol I debated saying something in here.... really all that needed to be said has been said.</p></blockquote><p>Not true. A dev has not said "Oh man, sorry guys.. we forgot people still played paladins lol"</p></blockquote><p>Heh, talk to a troub about waiting for fixes...</p>

Boli32
08-23-2011, 03:45 PM
<p>at least a dev responded.....</p>

Maergoth
08-23-2011, 06:52 PM
<p>Except.. there isn't a raid in the entire world who doesn't want to use a troub. I don't understand how a desired class can complain. No one cares how much DPS you do, same with illusionists. Raids will always strive to have one of your class in raids.</p><p>Paladins are a last resort, lol.</p>

Maergoth
08-23-2011, 10:21 PM
<p>I just thought I should point out a HIDDEN SECRET PALADIN FIX they made.</p><p>Now that crit mit requirements on hardmode zek zones are 40 less, we can drop our full crit mit adorns and replace them with the god awful near useless class focuses we won't use anyway.</p>

Fyang
08-23-2011, 10:28 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just thought I should point out a HIDDEN SECRET PALADIN FIX they made.</p><p>Now that crit mit requirements on hardmode zek zones are 40 less, we can drop our full crit mit adorns and replace them with the god awful near useless class focuses we won't use anyway.</p></blockquote><p>Is that true? just for Paladin?On test server or Live?</p>

Maergoth
08-23-2011, 10:42 PM
<p>It's on test. The hardmode zek crit bonus package now gives 40 less crit bonus.. which will mean people don't have to completely readorn.</p><p>It's actually more of a buff for classes that have useful adornments, which was the satire in my statement.</p>

Fyang
08-23-2011, 11:58 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's on test. The hardmode zek crit bonus package now gives 40 less crit bonus.. which will mean people don't have to completely readorn.</p><p>It's actually more of a buff for classes that have useful adornments, which was the satire in my statement.</p></blockquote><p>I take a look on test server, but the buff seems same as live server...</p>

Boli32
08-24-2011, 05:11 AM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's on test. The hardmode zek crit bonus package now gives 40 less crit bonus.. which will mean people don't have to completely readorn.</p><p>It's actually more of a buff for classes that have useful adornments, which was the satire in my statement.</p></blockquote><p>I dunno we may be able to rez again since we can't MT anything hard we can be the perfect little rez box again <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Cellia
08-24-2011, 05:24 AM
<p><span style="color: #cae0e6; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: #07161e;">at least a dev responded...</span></p><p>Agree...</p><p><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span></p>

LivelyHound
08-24-2011, 09:28 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>at least a dev responded.....</p></blockquote><p>Yay for th... oh wait....</p><p>Anyway I'm guessing this is all my fault...</p><p>I mean my mains since launch have been warden, pally and illy and all three classes are doing so well and have such dev attention that I should probably roll a brawler...</p><p>/apologises to all who play the three afore-mentioned classes</p>

Maergoth
08-24-2011, 06:33 PM
<p>inb4 this thread has more replies than any other thread on the forums.</p>

Buzzing
08-24-2011, 06:58 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>inb4 this thread has more replies than any other thread on the forums.</p></blockquote><p>oww now I talk to much...</p>

Irgun
08-25-2011, 09:59 AM
<p>The stuff we got so far is nothing - saving 60mana while having a powerpool of 35.000 is nothing.</p><p>A heal on an intercept that goes of if it expires naturally after 1mins 40 secs - i dont know, but while you were at it programming this stuff there`s so much agony and pain that just screams "WRONG!!!" you must have zero clue about what you are doing to even allow this thing to go onto test, hillarious.</p><p>The debuff-wardthingy - doesnt address a thing we need and in the end its again: nothing.</p><p>so: thanks for nothing, clearly. ~</p>

Buzzing
08-25-2011, 12:22 PM
<p>I'm stuck at work... I want to see the notes to see what actually made it to live</p>

Maergoth
08-25-2011, 01:30 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm stuck at work... I want to see the notes to see what actually made it to live</p></blockquote><p>Here's a hint: Everything they planned to give us, aka nothing.</p>

Anurra
08-25-2011, 05:54 PM
<p>I'm really enjoying these Paladin updates. They are so good compared to what all the other classes got!</p><p>/sarcasm off</p>

Buzzing
08-25-2011, 06:15 PM
<p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><em><strong>Crusader</strong></em></p><ul><li>Knight’s Stance can no longer apply to the Crusader’s ranged weapon.</li><li>Legionnaire's Conviction now has a two minute reuse time.</li></ul><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><em><strong>Paladin</strong></em></p><ul><li>Smite Evil now works against Rangers, Illusionists, Monks and Templars.</li><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice now also reduces the power cost of Devout Sacrifice.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept now also heals the target when Intercept expires naturally.</li></ul><div>not a thing was looked at</div><p>not really sure what to say tbh</p>

Maergoth
08-27-2011, 01:15 AM
<p>Bumping in hopes of Arch Heal being useful.</p><p>It's just as bad as our group heal, amount wise. However, it's single target, which prevent twitch clicks, longer recast, and more mana.</p><p>From where did this idea come?</p>

Irgun
08-27-2011, 06:53 AM
<p>Regarding healing amounts btw: prayer of healing and holy aid should be switched ~ so your heal will do something for grp every 30secs while holy aid is taking the job prayer of healing does atm when you solo.</p><p>(healspamming a grpheal with very little healamount every 7secs if you`re soloing is a flaw ~)</p>

Maergoth
08-27-2011, 01:11 PM
<p>That's what Arch heal is intended to be.. except the amount is so low you're better off casting the group heal. AAs improve the group heal amount, nothing saves Arch Heal.</p>

Fyang
08-28-2011, 08:49 AM
<p>Totally same race, same traits, same gear and same AA at 280, in test server. Compare stat with SK and Pal. Both are defensive stance.</p><p>SK has 3.5k HP more than Pal.</p><p>this is Pal</p><p><img src="http://www.imageuploads.net/ims/pic.php?u=41737IGb61&i=198186" /></p><p>this is SK</p><p><img src="http://www.imageuploads.net/ims/pic.php?u=41737IGb61&i=198187" /></p>

Irgun
08-28-2011, 10:57 AM
<p>Pools of Blood got buffed, nothing to say against this since its something useful at least, just unconscious-health wasnt.</p><p>Still: change Archheal to something useful!</p>

Maergoth
08-30-2011, 01:21 AM
<p>So I maintanked tonight, and I'm happy to say that with having full hardmode gear and a bunch of Drunder stuff, I was not one-shotted by Modrboat tonight.</p><p>I don't know if I've ever been one-shotted by him, but I appreciate what I get.</p><p>Wonder if we'll see some of the necessary changes pop up before next GU?</p>

Darkonx
08-30-2011, 02:21 AM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If nothing else destroy my pride and tell me I am the only tank left that can't tank any raid content and my role is a group tank. At least then it would be clear I need to do something else.</p></blockquote><p>This, thanks.</p><p>Also, Darkon doesn't know what he's talking about. I don't generally enjoy saying that about a guildy, but he thinks temporarily bypassing co-op mechanics is overpowered. Yet, he still uses Tribunal.</p><p>He doesn't tank adds, he doesn't play a Paladin, so it's understandable.</p><p>We should be the second most defensive tank in the game, NOT "on par" with shadowknights.</p></blockquote><p>I do know what I'm talking about or else I wouldn't be maintanking for the guild you're in. I think tribunals 20% buff is superior to 15s death immunity on a 60 minute recast. However any decent recast death immunity would be over powered. That is, if it's up often enough to be useful to prevent the paladins death from an ae with a resonable occurance rate.</p><p>I do tank adds, when you don't pick them up fast enough. Additionally, you don't want to tank adds, you want to be the second most defensive tank in the game, which at that point you would be a maintank, not an offtank.</p><p>You are insulting when I come here adding my voice to the paladin outcry that paladins DO need something. I just find it incredibly suprising when I see people asking for 'invincibility' when all Paladins really need is a stoneskin or two. I know more about tank balance than almost anyone else who plays this game.</p><p>I do think Paladins do need something, but if you are going to launch personal attacks when I'm agreeing that your class needs something to improve it, then I'm not sure what other path I should take.</p><p>Paladins need help, the answer is not death immunity.</p>

Buzzing
08-30-2011, 01:42 PM
<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If nothing else destroy my pride and tell me I am the only tank left that can't tank any raid content and my role is a group tank. At least then it would be clear I need to do something else.</p></blockquote><p>This, thanks.</p><p>Also, Darkon doesn't know what he's talking about. I don't generally enjoy saying that about a guildy, but he thinks temporarily bypassing co-op mechanics is overpowered. Yet, he still uses Tribunal.</p><p>He doesn't tank adds, he doesn't play a Paladin, so it's understandable.</p><p>We should be the second most defensive tank in the game, NOT "on par" with shadowknights.</p></blockquote><p>I do know what I'm talking about or else I wouldn't be maintanking for the guild you're in. I think tribunals 20% buff is superior to 15s death immunity on a 60 minute recast. However any decent recast death immunity would be over powered. That is, if it's up often enough to be useful to prevent the paladins death from an ae with a resonable occurance rate.</p><p>I do tank adds, when you don't pick them up fast enough. Additionally, you don't want to tank adds, you want to be the second most defensive tank in the game, which at that point you would be a maintank, not an offtank.</p><p>You are insulting when I come here adding my voice to the paladin outcry that paladins DO need something. I just find it incredibly suprising when I see people asking for 'invincibility' when all Paladins really need is a stoneskin or two. I know more about tank balance than almost anyone else who plays this game.</p><p>I do think Paladins do need something, but if you are going to launch personal attacks when I'm agreeing that your class needs something to improve it, then I'm not sure what other path I should take.</p><p>Paladins need help, the answer is not death immunity.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think you understand the mechanics of what we are talking about at all... believe it or not a stoneskine that last for 10 seconds is better by a long shot.</p><p>Honestly we only need a magic hit stoneskin (or standard stoneskin) for one hit maybe two on decent recast and we would be able to handle the one shots.</p><p>P.S. I am a main tank, and trust me I understand how the balance is and should be. You blatenly flamed other players for there views and oppinions because you did not agree with them. I'm sorry that you may feel insulted but the answer is not going to come from your response. Besides you took a week to actually respond and you didn't actually read what was said. I doubt you will even read this.</p>

Maergoth
08-30-2011, 03:51 PM
<p>Darkon is wrong, nothing new here.  You have never played this class, and you've made it clear that you do not know what we need, per the many responses by the rest of the community.</p><p>You're trying to slam the doors closed on possible solutions to this problem because you don't understand the ramifications of said changes. It's much more damaging than just not contributing to the thread to begin with.</p><p>Bypassing failure mechanics temporarily: possible since the beginning of time. Doing it intentionally? Not even useful.</p><p>Protip: I was invincible on Eireen this one time, unconcious, on the ground, tanking everything until I clicked my DI off. It didn't help.</p><p>Go play your monk.</p>

Hamervelder
08-30-2011, 04:18 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Our raidwide mit buff is unimportant,</p><p>Also, our raid wide gives 5% heal amount.. what.</p></blockquote><p>As a raid leader I put some value on both of these.  The difference on the trauma aoe damage on squishies is noticeable with and without the raid-wide.</p><p>You conveniently left out the ability to group cure your party when under control effects.</p><p>You also left out the classes immunity to some controls + the break out to controls + single target curing healers susceptible to those control effects.</p><p>I find all these abilities, particularly when well used and coordinated rather valuable.  And are contributing factors to why we run a Paladin OT over a Berserker or SK.</p></blockquote><p>Group cure is not a paladin ability.  It's an endline on the crusader Heroic AA page.  Any crusader level 81 or above with enough AA's can take it.  Ergo, that's not an advantage of paladins over shadowknights.</p><p>Immunity to control effects is, again, a crusader ability.  All crusaders can (and should, IMO) spec for fear immunity in the wisdom line on the crusader AA page.  The ability to break out of control effects is, again, a crusader ability, found on the crusader line of the Shadows tree.  Ergo, neither of those abilities are advantages of paladins over shadowknights, either.  The single-target cure is a nice perk, admittedly, but it's not <em>that</em> nice.  In fact, out of all of the abilities that you mentioned in the post that I've quoted, only the single-target cure and raidwide mit buff (which comes at a cost to the paladin's own mitigation) are paladin-specific abilities.  The others are all crusader AA choices.</p>

OrcSlayer96
08-30-2011, 04:47 PM
<p>Actually, the raidwide mit buff to all non fighters in the raid costs us nothing on mitigation, only 5 AA's in the Paladin tree and is much more useful than the original spell it replaces: pledge armament that stips mitigation from us and gives roughly 2/3rds of the amount to another fighter.  One of those spells i have not cast since probably Desert of Flames expansion.  Sure it is nothing as stellar as raidwide damage reduction but it does help on raidwide traumas(raid armament that is).  It is at least more useful as the 5% heal potency to raid on our normal raidwide buff.</p>

Maergoth
08-30-2011, 05:06 PM
<p>Yes, but they can't balance the mitigation requirements around having a paladin in the raid, so almost every trauma AOE is already toned down enough that the bonus mitigation doesn't help anyone except those who are undergeared or in the wrong place.</p><p>Everyone else should live without much issue, assuming they are properly geared.</p>

Boli32
08-30-2011, 05:10 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, but they can't balance the mitigation requirements around having a paladin in the raid, so almost every trauma AOE is already toned down enough that the bonus mitigation doesn't help anyone except those who are undergeared or in the wrong place.</p><p>Everyone else should live without much issue, assuming they are properly geared.</p></blockquote><p>Now if only they didn't balance raids around having multiple snaps and deathsaves on the tank...</p>

Darkonx
08-31-2011, 02:51 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If nothing else destroy my pride and tell me I am the only tank left that can't tank any raid content and my role is a group tank. At least then it would be clear I need to do something else.</p></blockquote><p>This, thanks.</p><p>Also, Darkon doesn't know what he's talking about. I don't generally enjoy saying that about a guildy, but he thinks temporarily bypassing co-op mechanics is overpowered. Yet, he still uses Tribunal.</p><p>He doesn't tank adds, he doesn't play a Paladin, so it's understandable.</p><p>We should be the second most defensive tank in the game, NOT "on par" with shadowknights.</p></blockquote><p>I do know what I'm talking about or else I wouldn't be maintanking for the guild you're in. I think tribunals 20% buff is superior to 15s death immunity on a 60 minute recast. However any decent recast death immunity would be over powered. That is, if it's up often enough to be useful to prevent the paladins death from an ae with a resonable occurance rate.</p><p>I do tank adds, when you don't pick them up fast enough. Additionally, you don't want to tank adds, you want to be the second most defensive tank in the game, which at that point you would be a maintank, not an offtank.</p><p>You are insulting when I come here adding my voice to the paladin outcry that paladins DO need something. I just find it incredibly suprising when I see people asking for 'invincibility' when all Paladins really need is a stoneskin or two. I know more about tank balance than almost anyone else who plays this game.</p><p>I do think Paladins do need something, but if you are going to launch personal attacks when I'm agreeing that your class needs something to improve it, then I'm not sure what other path I should take.</p><p>Paladins need help, the answer is not death immunity.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think you understand the mechanics of what we are talking about at all... believe it or not a stoneskine that last for 10 seconds is better by a long shot.</p><p>Honestly we only need a magic hit stoneskin (or standard stoneskin) for one hit maybe two on decent recast and we would be able to handle the one shots.</p><p>P.S. I am a main tank, and trust me I understand how the balance is and should be. You blatenly flamed other players for there views and oppinions because you did not agree with them. I'm sorry that you may feel insulted but the answer is not going to come from your response. Besides you took a week to actually respond and you didn't actually read what was said. I doubt you will even read this.</p></blockquote><p>Ten seconds of infinite stoneskin is better, obviously. That would be even more over powered. You can lose DI's while 'death immune'. Regardless, it's still OP.</p>

Darkonx
08-31-2011, 02:52 AM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Darkon is wrong, nothing new here.  You have never played this class, and you've made it clear that you do not know what we need, per the many responses by the rest of the community.</p><p>You're trying to slam the doors closed on possible solutions to this problem because you don't understand the ramifications of said changes. It's much more damaging than just not contributing to the thread to begin with.</p><p>Bypassing failure mechanics temporarily: possible since the beginning of time. Doing it intentionally? Not even useful.</p><p>Protip: I was invincible on Eireen this one time, unconcious, on the ground, tanking everything until I clicked my DI off. It didn't help.</p><p>Go play your monk.</p></blockquote><p>I'm a better Paladin than you are. I come here trying to help you get something added to your class and I get ignorant responses from you flaming me. I probably shouldn't be suprised by the lack of intelligence in your responses.</p>

Maergoth
08-31-2011, 04:25 AM
<p>I honestly don't know why you're so mad. I also don't know how you can main tank for a competitive guild and still have such a poor grasp on class balance and game mechanics. Maybe that's why you're switching, again, to the most OP class in the game. Should have done it sooner, maybe we wouldn't have fallen so far behind.</p><p>It's a fair strategy, I suppose. If you can't make due with what you've got, get something else. I mean, you've somehow convinced Jaraxx that guardians are even better than Shadowknights at tanking AOE sets of adds.</p><p>Aaand.. dismount.</p><p>If you're going to tell me and half the people in this thread you know more about our class than we do, you're practically asking for an argument. The fact that you waited so long to reply means you didn't care about what you said, nor the subject in general. So why are you posting? Just to cause trouble? Or are you actually convinced you are some avatar of knowledge and, because you have contributed, the devs will believe our plight?</p><p>You embarassed me and our guild in front of the entire Paladin community by being so incredibly wrong. Step back next time and remove yourself, instead of instigating. Your argument was tired and defeated multiple times by multiple people in this thread.</p>

Vash854
08-31-2011, 06:27 AM
<p>Lol, so much pwnage, Maergoth you are my hero.</p>

Maergoth
08-31-2011, 06:50 PM
<p>Thanks, but I don't feel good about any of it. No one deserves to be reamed that hard in public, especially not someone in my own guild.  I get easily frusterated by people who fail to see the error in their ways when it's being thrown at them, especially when they insist on deflecting fault with arrogance and ego.</p><p>Continue any discussions that may have been derailed.</p><p>How is everyone liking the debuff on our ward? It's super hit and miss, and practically worthless unless primary shaman wards on the target don't get penetrated. Then it will apply a debuff to everyone who hits them, even if Demonstration itself isn't consumed.</p>

Buzzing
08-31-2011, 07:09 PM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How is everyone liking the debuff on our ward? It's super hit and miss, and practically worthless unless primary shaman wards on the target don't get penetrated. Then it will apply a debuff to everyone who hits them, even if Demonstration itself isn't consumed.</p></blockquote><p>From what I can tell even if your ward is completely nocked down it still lasts for 10 seconds. which is not very long at all but at least I can see it hit. No change in RW dps that I can see. If it lasted for 30 seconds or so it would make casting our ward a lot more often viable.</p>

Maergoth
08-31-2011, 09:02 PM
<p>Yes, but the positive effect is that every target that hits you, even if it doesn't eat the ward, gets the debuff. So, if you're fully warded by a shaman and tanking a bunch of little adds that don't eat through shaman wards, demonstration stays on you longer, applies the debuff over and over and to everything that hits you.</p>

Rawkness
09-01-2011, 01:01 AM
<p>great post maergoth couldent agree with you more. changes need to be made and youv hit the nail in the coffin</p>

Maergoth
09-01-2011, 02:59 AM
<p>That's an interesting turn of phrase, but thank you. Gratz on your first forum post.</p>

Lalen
09-01-2011, 03:10 AM
<p><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, but the positive effect is that every target that hits you, even if it doesn't eat the ward, gets the debuff. So, if you're fully warded by a shaman and tanking a bunch of little adds that don't eat through shaman wards, demonstration stays on you longer, applies the debuff over and over and to everything that hits you.</p></blockquote><p>I've been suggesting for a while, a heal over time effect (or heal on hit) on Arch Heal. That is not enough to get paladins out of the neglected rut, but it is a start in the right direction.</p><p>I don't see much complaint about this... but... Heritics Destruction... Am I the only one that LOL's at that ability?  15% pot for 10 seconds with a 3m cool-down?  Thats like an overall 0.01% pot increease for 3m which isn't worth 2 aa's not to mention the further over 100% pot someone is the less effect 15% has on the heal amounts or damage amounts that are increased (sees like parses are showing some kind of soft-cap in potency and best noticable in pools; I know I'm a bit ignorant on that subject but if anyone knows whats going on there, please feel free to fill me in).  If they were to beef this up a little -- that could very well be what is needed.</p>

Maergoth
09-01-2011, 04:19 AM
<p>Yes, Heretic's Destruction is much more lackluster than it used to be. Hardly jcap worthy any more, and is a drop of water in a sea of potency and crit bonus from the new gear. It was never good enough to put a macro on, and no one looks forward to getting it.</p><p>As for any type of direct heal, heal over time or heal on hit.. please no.</p><p>Direct heals are fundamentally flawed in the sense that they are completely worthless unless we have no wards and are spiking. If you are constantly spiking, you're going to die.. no amount of properly powerful ability will prevent that.</p><p>They also don't have recovery potential. If you are destabilized for whatever reason (Double AOE, touch, etc..) and cast a direct heal, it doesn't do anything to prevent you from just spiking back down. Wards are cumulative, and even reactives can stack up. Not direct heals.. they are immediate and way too hit or miss. With our ward, you are guaranteeing a gain of 10k or so in the total wards on you. All of the direct heals are too situational, and stuff like Holy Aid requires switching targets and casting it on someone else in the split second that they leave full HP.</p><p>It's just not good. The problem with suggestions is that there could be a million solutions, but if they aren't willing to make themselves aware of the problems, they won't address them. Arch heal is a viable pickup now, so it should be something heal related that will help our class, <strong>not another single target heal I keep forgetting I have.</strong></p>

Buzzing
09-01-2011, 12:25 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, but the positive effect is that every target that hits you, even if it doesn't eat the ward, gets the debuff. So, if you're fully warded by a shaman and tanking a bunch of little adds that don't eat through shaman wards, demonstration stays on you longer, applies the debuff over and over and to everything that hits you.</p></blockquote><p>I thought about this, I MT for my guild so haven't seen much of an advantage for it besides trash (though it does put it back on the name as I am getting hit if the other wards are there as well)</p><p>I think the primary problem with arch heal is that it has been passed over with all the changes to fighter heals. So it hits for the same it always has but now doesn't crit. Making it even more useless in the grand scale of things. Actually I was using it last night when farming in the Hole. I can literally solo all but maybe one mob in there and that includes the x4's. A lot of that is that arch heal as I can get back a fair amount of HP every 8 seconds or so between the group heal and arch heal. A lot of people have pointed out that changes can't break heroic content yet we have sever abilities that only aid us in heroic content. It has already been said that there is a whole bunch of ways to change this around so that it is more useful but your right in that there has to be a willingness to admit it is not working in its current state.</p>

Maergoth
09-01-2011, 01:52 PM
<p>Not only have I not used Arch Heal at all since picking it up, there hasn't been a SINGLE SITUATION that calls for it or would be helped by it whatsoever. Not in solo content, heroic content, raid content or hardmode raid content.</p><p>I tried very hard to make use of this ability, and there is none.</p>

Maergoth
09-03-2011, 05:00 PM
<p>bump <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Boli32
09-03-2011, 08:31 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>bump <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>technically we arn't allowed to bump..... opps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>(issues remain the same we NEED to be fixed... when ALL the tank classes actually agree on somethign you *know* its broken.)</p>

Maergoth
09-04-2011, 05:12 AM
<p>If a forum mod comes in here and yells at me for a bump, it will be the first red name that has stepped foot into the thread.</p><p>If I didn't bump it, I would have re-posted something similar. This is the economy solution for everyone.</p>

Cyrdemac
09-04-2011, 08:17 AM
<p>Aye. Useless changes in GU 61 for Paladin. Next time, before you patch us again like this, don't buff us at all, please!</p><p>A mediocre debuff on our ward AA, a useless change to Intercept AA, useless changes to some heal AA. No improvements on the hate-gain sector or on surviveability and I don't even expect that we will get anything anytime soon but we still need to always demand it until we are completely forgotten.</p>

Boli32
09-04-2011, 10:10 AM
<p>A Paladin tankig a mob with a 45s deathtouch like effect from a frontal / AoE</p><p>45s - LC 1m30s - DP 2m15s - Death 3m - LC 3m45s - Death 4m30 - DP 5m15s - LC 6m - Death 6m45s - Death 7m30s - LC 8m15s - DP 9min - Death This is saying that my death prevent does not trigger from getting a multi-atatck from the mob, and I have enough health/wards to survive my damage reduction ability the group/raid will have to deal with AT LEAST 5 deaths every 9min Compare this to how a monk can deal with a death-touch effect every 45s... 45s - superior guard 1m30s - superior guard 2m15s - superior guard 3m - superior guard 3m45s - superior guard 4m30 - superior guard 5m15s - superior guard 6m - superior guard 6m45s - superior guard 7m30s - superior guard 8m15s - superior guard 9min - superior guard</p><p>I could work it out using brawlers, guardians, berserkers or shadowknights as an example but on cases like a frontal/AoE which *will* kill the tank unless somethgin is done about it Some classes simply have the tools to deal with it and some do not. And guilds will choose the tanks which *can* deal with it over those who cannot.</p><p>NOTE: I didn't include manawall as if it is a power drain fight it is useless; and to be quite frank I didn't wanan get bogged down in working out a coercers channel against manawall recasts. as that includes another level of complexity that guilds choose to deal without</p>

Irgun
09-04-2011, 11:27 AM
<p>Lè bümp!</p>

Maergoth
09-04-2011, 01:42 PM
<p>In general, these time-based examples outline the potential problem with our class's survivability, but not the actual problem.</p><p>The actual problem is better described by this situation:</p><p>Group Setup: Paladin, Troubador, Mystic, Illusionist, Inquisitor, Warlock (All with proper crit / crit mit)</p><p>A few nights ago, we started working on Ragebourne Gregor Haldane in HM Sullon's Spire. The adds on this fight will randomly kill me if I'm not careful, so I cannot tank them both off the bat. I find the guardian randomly grabbing mine off of me, and that's just fine, since he doesn't take damage. The brawler is tanking the main named off to the side without a hitch while we kill the adds.</p><p>The adds die, with me somewhere near the bottom of the parse and not contributing anything much. We burn the named, which due to my amends target, I am sitting at an uncomfortable amount of aggro already. Drop amends, dps the named, but I can't use Holy Ground without backing away and casting it to avoid the extra position. I continue DPSing, wards keeping me alive for the AOE because I'm not taking any other damage.</p><p>Mob splits, both mobs are on one tank and one needs to be moved. Re-apply amends, holy ground, beat on the mob, rescue.. and then the guardian gets tired of waiting and just snaps the other mob I'm not hitting into position on the other side of the room.  Now I've got a named I have to lose, the AOE is due but my amends target is wailing on it.. nevermind. The brawler snaps it off no problem. Manawall is down at this point, because I would have died to the AOE.</p><p>Run over to the other mob.. AOE is due on this side now (AOE RECAST: 38 Seconds per mob, 16 seconds over-all. AVG HIT: 80k-180k+). Mob is reasonably debuffed, but the raid is DPSing the other side. AOE hits, guardian doesn't even flinch. Mobs port to the center.. recapture, monk bullcrap, both have their mobs back in position.  It's my job to handle the next port/memwipe, so I'm behind the mob trying to work up reasonable hate. AOE is due, and I've got LC and my DI still up.</p><p>Mob AOEs and takes my DI.. I'm not even in front of it. 102k damage. Mob ports, sneering assault, holy ground, I have aggro, then lose it, then have it, then lose it because my amends target is hitting another mob and my hategain is < the AOE dps and debuff aggro. Get the mob in position.. AOE is soon. Manawall, auto attacked, AOEd, auto attacked.. out of mana. This was lucky timing, considering there is no casting bar or precise timer.. making mana wall almost useless.</p><p>Mob ports, the other mob aggros me, his AOE is due, pull it into position, LC, AOE hits, dead... Less than 16 seconds after I just blocked an instant-death AOE, another slams me in the face for 85k POST LC REDUCTIONS. "Maergoth, ask for DI's next time".. "Thanks, Jar. I had a save up already."</p><p>Unfortunately, this happened three more times in a row (One side getting double AOEs.) Fortunately, it wasn't my side, and the brawler just laughed at the double AOEs. However, even on my side, my DI is still down and a random multi-attack death would cost us the fight. Since I need to save every combination of saves for the AOE, I still have to just let the guardian tank.</p><p>We wipe soon after because I have to pussyfoot around this fight every second of the way.</p><p>This is assuming nothing goes wrong somewhere earlier in the fight, and that first DI trigger wasn't a death I spent the entire second half of the fight recovering from and being crutched by better tank classes.</p><p>There's your sad truth.</p>

Bruener
09-04-2011, 02:24 PM
<p>Believe me, I know what you are talking about in that encounter.</p><p>Just let the Guard and Monk do their job and sit back and play cleanup if for some strange reason one of them actually dies.  Save yourself the frustration because tbh Brawlers and Guard have the tools do do that encounter np.  Oh, and plan on it being the same type of thing for the next couple encounters too.</p>

Boli32
09-04-2011, 02:37 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In general, these time-based examples outline the potential problem with our class's survivability, but not the actual problem.</p><p>The actual problem is better described by this situation:</p><p>Group Setup: Paladin, Troubador, Mystic, Illusionist, Inquisitor, Warlock (All with proper crit / crit mit)</p><p>A few nights ago, we started working on Ragebourne Gregor Haldane in HM Sullon's Spire. The adds on this fight will randomly kill me if I'm not careful, so I cannot tank them both off the bat. I find the guardian randomly grabbing mine off of me, and that's just fine, since he doesn't take damage. The brawler is tanking the main named off to the side without a hitch while we kill the adds.</p><p>The adds die, with me somewhere near the bottom of the parse and not contributing anything much. We burn the named, which due to my amends target, I am sitting at an uncomfortable amount of aggro already. Drop amends, dps the named, but I can't use Holy Ground without backing away and casting it to avoid the extra position. I continue DPSing, wards keeping me alive for the AOE because I'm not taking any other damage.</p><p>Mob splits, both mobs are on one tank and one needs to be moved. Re-apply amends, holy ground, beat on the mob, rescue.. and then the guardian gets tired of waiting and just snaps the other mob I'm not hitting into position on the other side of the room.  Now I've got a named I have to lose, the AOE is due but my amends target is wailing on it.. nevermind. The brawler snaps it off no problem. Manawall is down at this point, because I would have died to the AOE.</p><p>Run over to the other mob.. AOE is due on this side now (AOE RECAST: 38 Seconds per mob, 16 seconds over-all. AVG HIT: 80k-180k+). Mob is reasonably debuffed, but the raid is DPSing the other side. AOE hits, guardian doesn't even flinch. Mobs port to the center.. recapture, monk bullcrap, both have their mobs back in position.  It's my job to handle the next port/memwipe, so I'm behind the mob trying to work up reasonable hate. AOE is due, and I've got LC and my DI still up.</p><p>Mob AOEs and takes my DI.. I'm not even in front of it. 102k damage. Mob ports, sneering assault, holy ground, I have aggro, then lose it, then have it, then lose it because my amends target is hitting another mob and my hategain is < the AOE dps and debuff aggro. Get the mob in position.. AOE is soon. Manawall, auto attacked, AOEd, auto attacked.. out of mana. This was lucky timing, considering there is no casting bar or precise timer.. making mana wall almost useless.</p><p>Mob ports, the other mob aggros me, his AOE is due, pull it into position, LC, AOE hits, dead... Less than 16 seconds after I just blocked an instant-death AOE, another slams me in the face for 85k POST LC REDUCTIONS. "Maergoth, ask for DI's next time".. "Thanks, Jar. I had a save up already."</p><p>Unfortunately, this happened three more times in a row (One side getting double AOEs.) Fortunately, it wasn't my side, and the brawler just laughed at the double AOEs. However, even on my side, my DI is still down and a random multi-attack death would cost us the fight. Since I need to save every combination of saves for the AOE, I still have to just let the guardian tank.</p><p>We wipe soon after because I have to pussyfoot around this fight every second of the way.</p><p>This is assuming nothing goes wrong somewhere earlier in the fight, and that first DI trigger wasn't a death I spent the entire second half of the fight recovering from and being crutched by better tank classes.</p><p>There's your sad truth.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah I didn't want to get too bogged down in specfics as ... well tbh I will get kicked from my guild if I mention *any* spefics about a fight <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... but Mear is right - LC is not a save as whilst a stoneskin will reduce a 120k nuke to 0; LC will reduce it to 72k which can sometimes *still* kill you.</p><p>And then the swarns of adds if they get behind you even one can punch through and kill you on a double attack and not even our "stonewall" can save us as that is frontal only.</p><p>Manawall becomes useless if you are not at full power and on power drain fights it is completly useless... the *only* way a pally can tank effectively in that zone is if you bring another tank (bruiser) JUST to cast intercede as well as rack up with defiler/templar/warden MT group.</p><p>.... or you could just let the guard or monk tank it...</p>

Maergoth
09-04-2011, 07:22 PM
<p>"Let the other tanks handle it"</p><p>Yerp. Story of my life. Even his SK did fine, and supposedly "SKs are almost as bad as paladins".. bull.</p><p>It's getting to the point now where they want me to play something else. I am a great player, I've been at this since launch.. I've played other things from time to time and do it well.</p><p>My class is actually hindering my guild right now, and absolutely every part of my mind is telling me to switch classes. This shouldn't be the only option.. why is this being ignored?</p>

Maergoth
09-05-2011, 01:04 AM
<p>Hello. My name is Maergoth.</p><p>I have played a Paladin since launch.</p><p>I am a member of one of the top raid guilds worldwide.</p><p>I enjoy this class.</p><p>We did Hardmode Gregor tonight and I got absolutely ripped to shreds. Every single AOE. THROUGH Legionnaire's Conviction sometimes.</p><p>I took the advice mentioned above. Hell, I was already doing it for the most part. However, when you're the emergency tank.. the one who's only role is to grab a mob when another tank dies (which isn't often), you need to be able to do that. Reliably. If there are only two clutch moments on your shoulders during a fight, you CANNOT just.. die. You can't fail half the time you're needed. Ragecloud (AOE) has no casting bar, so Manawall is worthless.</p><p>Ever asked for DIs and have them wear off because the mobs switched and double AOEd one side.. or worse, asking for a DI and getting doubled AOEd and STILL DYING? I Can't even get within auto attack range and survive the AOE. I'm standing back bowing the entire fight.</p><p>How is this how the class is intended to be played? PLEASE. I can't put into words how frustrating it is to have this issue completely ignored.</p><p>So I did the unthinkable.</p><p>I played a different class.. a Brigand tonight for the first time. I felt useful. I'm considering switching, so my guild doesn't recruit someone who is willing to play something that is needed. I don't really have a choice, lol. Talk about overpowered: A single class capable of dragging an entire guild down.</p><p>Awfully sad story right there. Enjoying the greasy tears, Devs?</p><p>Oh, and to keep this as In-Testing feedback.. fix my avatar charms, they're blue now. If I can't succeed in this expansion, I'd very much appreciate it if my previous accomplishments didn't get spat on.</p>

Boli32
09-05-2011, 05:36 AM
<p>Similar story here - my guild think I'm "whining" when i say I cannot take certain AoEs or death touches... but it is *nothing* to do with me.</p><p>And seriously phrases like "man up" or "even can tank it on my [insert bruiser alt's name] I just run a stoneskin and bamn easy do NOT help as I have ZERO ways to survive many AoE and its getting worse and worse... and I liek Maer feel as if even *being* on the raid means I am compromising them sometimes.</p><p>... Its not as if Pallys are awash with massive DPS (coompared to DPS classes) or ubbah buffs.</p><p>Paladins *are* broken... it just takes content like this to highlight it as we have had issues like this for a few expansions now... and don't give the "but you have amends... and healz!" arguement for justifying the fact we have in general WORSE abilities than other tanks.</p><p>- A Dead pally cannot cast their heals- Transfers don't mean anything when you are at the bottom of the hate list.- 10% Damage reduction 10% heal on damage taken does *not* work when you are hit for 200% of your max health.</p><p>Hello my name is Boli, and I been a pally since november 2004, and tanking raids since KoS.</p><p>... and I cannot tank anymore; and its killing me to say it as everyone thinks its me being a n00b or "spec better"... but seriously... it is not. I challenge any of the Devs to borrow my geared out pally with everything maxed out I have access to... and tank what I cannot... as quite frankly my dirge alt with 140 CM is looking to have more survibility right now. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>And don't talk about "need to get the right setup" as quite franky other tanks do not NEED 3 *other* people (aside from the usual 2 healer MT group) in a surporting role just to keep themselves alive.. they just hit a couple of buttons occasionally.</p>

Bruener
09-05-2011, 10:48 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>"Let the other tanks handle it"</p><p>Yerp. Story of my life. Even his SK did fine, and supposedly "SKs are almost as bad as paladins".. bull.</p><p>It's getting to the point now where they want me to play something else. I am a great player, I've been at this since launch.. I've played other things from time to time and do it well.</p><p>My class is actually hindering my guild right now, and absolutely every part of my mind is telling me to switch classes. This shouldn't be the only option.. why is this being ignored?</p></blockquote><p>Well thats probably because his SK has a better set up for it than you do with the plan of MT'ing it.</p><p>Believe me, I get ripped to shreds on that fight constantly...and its really because of the type of AEs along with how many (unfortunately its a common theme through the next couple mobs too).</p><p>DA does nothing.  Manawall is useless.  LC only works on the elemental and not enough to actually keep you from dying sometimes.  Furor does nothing for the AEs, and still gets struck thru.  As a SK blood siphon even being a big ward of say 60k is not enough to stop the AE full on so it eats through it and kills still.  That leaves a single stoneskin that you can't time on the encounter, and Bloodletter.  The way it works is Bloodletter gets eaten and on the 3rd AE dead SK.</p><p>My guild halfway jokes about it, but it is also glaringly obvious to everybody the state non-Brawler and non-Guard tanks are in.  Half of the threads on these forums point out how you need Brawlers tanking to push through content, or discuss the huge disadvantage Crusaders/Zerks have in progression.  When it is that glaringly obvious and the issues are that well known fixes come.  They have to, in fact they already started its just they probably want to start a few tweaks at a time to not create a flip flop mess.  So far, LC had 1/3 of its reuse time dropped.  So far, mobs have had their strike thru significantly reduced.  Now, Crusaders just need a little better tools to handle the 1 shot AEs as often, and imo they need to fix this huge gap between T1 DPS and everybody else that creates hate issues.</p><p>EDIT: Oh and LC should be 100% since they butchered the offensive use of it completely and 40% is not nearly enough for an ability that usually only blocks 1 AE every 2 minutes.  I mean for some reason Brawlers get to have 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds every time they are hit that can trigger every 10 seconds....but 40% magic only damage reduction on a 2 min recast is supposed to be worth spending 24 AAs into a line that everything else in is junk?  Make it a true reflect.  100% magic damage reflected back.</p>

Boli32
09-05-2011, 11:45 AM
<p>Legionaries conviction:</p><p>- Change to 10s duration- make it 80-100% of magical damage reduction- Make it completly modifiable again- Allow it to be crit and effected by potency BUT- Change the damage amount to a static (possibly AoE) damage of say "1000 blue AoE" - or even just loose all the damage altogether....</p><p>Oh... and sort that entire line out...... we used to get 67% spll crits; clerics got 100% melee crits and got it changed to autoattack mod of 0.3 (30%) so did everyone other healer who could get 100% melee crits (shamans and wardens).</p><p>We got 12% of strength added to spells.... even at 4000 strength that is only 480... war runes give more Ability mod to the GROUP. The healing one is even worse as a: it only really effects directs and b: and it only really effects paladins (not crusaders as a whole) - not forgetting the resists are a joke (2k when you're closing in on 40k).</p><p>If the +spell one remained BUT the +healing gave CASTING SPEED; this will not make this line so bad as we would not feel so bad having to give up on the strength line which is worth so much to us.</p><p>No other class has to give up so much.... to gain so little that doesn't even work....</p>

Anurra
09-05-2011, 04:57 PM
<p>These past few posts from HM raiding Paladins (in other words, players who know what they are doing) have been depressing to read. And both of them are thinking of switching to other classes. What a great feature of a class: makes you want to play a different one!</p><p>I really hope that SoE does something here: telling us the class is not made for HM raiding, or that fixes will be incoming, or that we should all delete our Paladins, or something else... <strong><em>ANYTHING </em>will be better than <em>NOTHING</em></strong>.</p>

Maergoth
09-05-2011, 04:57 PM
<p>I'll grant that shadowknights have sustained survivability issues as well.  However, that is the cost for the DPS, snap and utility that paladins don't have. The problem is, we also don't have that sustained survivability. We have <span style="text-decoration: underline;">NOTHING</span>.</p><p>Our shadowknight lives in bursts. He combos his saves on that fight, and saves priest DIs for after bloodletter goes down. Yeah, he dies.. every tank dies on that fight. But then he recasts bloodletter and he's good to go for another few rounds of AOEs.</p><p>Our DI is on a LONGER recast than bloodletter, so even dying doesn't mean we regain any type of survivability.</p><p>Our DI probably won't even be back up, and on more occasions than one, I die again before the save THAT JUST FAILED AND CAUSED MY DEATH isn't even back up.</p><p>@Boli,</p><p>I know that feel bro. Did you ever see Shawshank Redemption?</p><p>Our class feels like the second month in the hole. Except, for years now.</p><p>I don't know why devs are being so obtuse about this. I don't think more changes to LC are the solution honestly.. we need a unqiue save.</p><p>Oh, by the way. If you're waiting for more paladins to chime in for a larger demographic..</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">THIS JUST IN: NO ONE PLAYS PALADINS ANYMORE.</span></strong></span></p>

Boli32
09-05-2011, 08:47 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>@Boli,</p><p>I don't know why devs are being so obtuse about this. I don't think more changes to LC are the solution honestly.. we need a unqiue save.</p></blockquote><p>true.. but those change will help... but like everythgn with the paladin class there is not one quick fix... tbh  a lot of our entire class needs to be reworked.</p>

Anurra
09-05-2011, 08:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>@Boli,</p><p>I don't know why devs are being so obtuse about this. I don't think more changes to LC are the solution honestly.. we need a unqiue save.</p></blockquote><p>true.. but those change will help... but like everythgn with the paladin class there is not one quick fix... tbh  a lot of our entire class needs to be reworked.</p></blockquote><p>Can you elaborate on what you think needs to be reworked for the class (if it is different than what was already discussed. I get the impression that it is different)?</p>

Boli32
09-05-2011, 09:48 PM
<p>Truefully  the entire concept of "heal damage what has been taken" is flawed.</p><p>We work more on direct heals and as any healer knows you never use directs  - you use wards reactives and regens. Wards "heal" damage before ity is taken, reactives trigger as soon as damage is taken and regens tick constantly so they are like directs but unlike directs they heal all the time instead of having to trigger them.</p><p>Ask any healer to heal a group... or even themself on direct heals alone and they will run out of power; not be able to keep up with the damage and not be able to deal with any spikes; we are trying to base our entire survibility on a concept which is flawed.</p><p>Heals should be part of our class, yes - but more a finishing touch to how we tank not as the entireity; the "flavour" as it were; procing wards regenerating wards or having a heal over time added to some spells perfect... having our entire suribility based around a flawed concept (but you can heal!) has been broken for a long LONG time.</p><p>Its nice that our heals have been increased in size but when you put it against the massive hit point increase all we have had done was have our recasts increased in the big scheme of things; and some heals not even increased. but even then a dead pally cannot heal what has already happened... you are... erm ... dead.</p><p>Give me a couple of hours tomorrow and I coudl post up a pretty much a full "why this spell doesn't work" argument for most of our abilities along with suggestions but right now I'll just leave you with the broken concept.</p><p><strong>Dead pally cannot heal</strong></p>

Maergoth
09-05-2011, 11:39 PM
<p>I don't think Boli is disagreeing with everything that has been said so far. He's just saying that the direction our survivability is addressed should start with the five direct heals we have.</p><p>Crusader's Faith is the only direct heal that has any place in current raiding, everything else is practically worthless. There aren't many situations where massive direct heals are useful, and when it is, you're better off clicking Crusader's Faith instead of ANY of our direct heals.</p><p>Moreover, Crusader's Faith is shared between both Paladins and Shadowknights. This means that any situation that calls for direct heals is just as much a Shadowknight situation as a Paladin situation. This makes our direct heals absolutely worthless, because you can't even consider them a part of our class when the better choice is Crusader's Faith, a shared ability.</p>

Boli32
09-06-2011, 05:41 AM
<p>Right *cracks fingers* lets get started:</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Demonstration of Faith</span>- This does not crit- only 30% of your Potency effects it- AA to increase it only give 1/3 of their value- 16% heal increase (from crusader tree) also do not effect it- Its got a debuff to anyone who hits the paladin BUT as soon as DoF expires this efffect drops- It can gain increase healing power from our strength not once... but TWICE (+10% from legionaries line; +25% from Mythical buff).- Its base recast is 60s, but can be brought down to 30s with AA easily</p><p>On the whole from a developers point of view this is a perfect "save"; it has got numerous ways to increase it from AA and  running in tandem with your group heal increasors (Coercer: interletual rememdy; Dirge: Gravitas even).</p><p>BUT it is flawed; since only 30% of our potency effects it and some AA simply do not increase it at all... the actual number it wards for I've never seen break 15k... and is normally around 10-12k. This ward can be taken down with one sneeze of a raid mobs autoattack but increasing it anymore will unbalance herioc play as you simply cannot throw more numbers at it.</p><p>It is a damage ward balanced for herioc and solo play NOT for raid... as such on raid fights I only cast it in the vain hope of it it having any effect rather than actually trying to time it with any AoE; but it is on a perfect recast to DEAL with AoEs; at most it saves 15k of damage being taken at around the right time; but a guardian doesn't throw up his mitigation buff to stop an AoE... no... like the paladin he would be killed if he did. He uses a Stoneskin and reduces that damage to zero. Paladins put up the ward and hope enough of our defilers wards are up before an untimely end. as 150k nukes mean splat... even if we reduce ours to 100k... it will still kill us dead.</p><p>Suggestion #1: Incorporate a magical stoneskin trigger into it and have the ward itself as only a secondary effect in a raid enviroment; and make the spell last its entire duration. In a herioc or solo effect it will stay up a few second longer.. but not much more as it is balanced for herioc content and only on very rare cicumstances wil the magicla stoneskin be needed.</p><p>Demonstration of Faith Recast 60sCasting 1.5sDuration 24s</p><p>Wards Target for 10,000 points of all damageReduces the Arcane Mitigation of people striking the target by 2,000Will absorb all magical damage when the amount is greater than 35% of the target's maximum health. * This expires after one trigger* This Spell does not expire untill the full duration has run its course.* This spell cannot be interupted.</p><p>Suggestion #2:Have the magaority of the ward only effect magical damage.. but massively increase it. This will not effect herioc or solo content as there are very few situations that deal magical damage. Keep the Ward but change it to a regenerating ward instead to appease the solo/group players.</p><p>Demonstration of Faith Recast 60s Casting 1.5s Duration 24s</p><p>Wards Target for 40,000 points of all Magical damage Reduces the Arcane Mitigation of people striking the target by 2,000Wards target for 1000 points of physical damage* This ward regenerates 500 points of damage every 2.0s * This spell cannot be interupted.</p>

Boli32
09-06-2011, 05:53 AM
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Arch Heal / Prayer of healing</span></p><p>- Arch heal is an endline one which requires to be constantly spammed to be of any real benefit- Arch heal can only really help you in a solo situation; as a power intensive way to keep your health topped up. This is usperceded by Faithful cry which adds a heavy HoT on the paladin when he uses it  - which cna be maintained 50% of the time.- prayer of healing is our first heal; and is a group heal- Neither have had their values increased to reflect the changes in health - Neither have had their recasts touched at all meaning they have to be constantly spammed to be of any use- prayer of healing has not only an TWO AA dedicated towards it (one reduces the casting speed and power consumption, another incresaes the healing power) but also it has an effect on the RAID armour (to further increase its healing power)- Even *with* those enhancements in full raid gear it is still only a 10% group heal; it has the healing power of a SINGLE TICK of a druids heal over time. that is all- There is no feasible way either of them are seful in a raid or herioc enviroment outside of soloing.</p><p>Before the heal crit nerf Prayer of healing was ideal for dealing with AoEs Sure we got hit by the AoE but because of its short cast speed and high crit value (~ 10k) you coudl top the group off quickly to deal with DoTs ticking a second time or before another AoE hit. - In fact I often helped heal a group on raids which had a single healer.</p><p>Note: I said HELP not replace.</p>

Fauztin
09-06-2011, 09:32 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I played a different class.. a Brigand tonight for the first time. I felt useful.</p></blockquote><p>lol'd hard...</p><p>since when is the brigand wanted? u just don't have a clue...maybe they want us in raids, but NOONE, i repeat NOONE wants us in their group due to no utility beside TG (remember, its raidwide). the brig is also one of those classes getting "overlooked" every update, right behind troub and paly. Most of the debuffs are nothing more than placebo, so we feel important (which we aren't). so i'd recommend u choose a different class, if u don't want the same situation u "currently" have with ur paly. i doubt that those classes get their needed fixes soon.tbh, fixing things isn't SOEs strong point...</p>

Irgun
09-06-2011, 11:47 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I played a different class.. a Brigand tonight for the first time. I felt useful.</p></blockquote><p>lol'd hard...</p><p>since when is the brigand wanted? u just don't have a clue...maybe they want us in raids, but NOONE, i repeat NOONE wants us in their group due to</p></blockquote><p>Actually, we`re talking about usefullness in raids, no one cares about the rest.</p><p>/point missed</p>

Fauztin
09-06-2011, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><p>Actually, we`re talking about usefullness in raids, no one cares about the rest.</p><p>/point missed</p></blockquote><p>i'm taking about the groups in an raid... again, noone wants us in their in grp in a raid. remember, a raid consists of 4 grps...</p>

Boli32
09-06-2011, 12:17 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Actually, we`re talking about usefullness in raids, no one cares about the rest.</p><p>/point missed</p></blockquote><p>i'm taking about the groups in an raid... again, noone wants us in their in grp in a raid. remember, a raid consists of 4 grps...</p></blockquote><p>And peeps want a paladin?</p>

Irgun
09-06-2011, 02:33 PM
<p>It`s a difference if some people yawn having a brigand in their grp or if the leadership of a raidforce decides not to recruit one at all, thus this will never happen since every dps is glad having one around to get higher number due to dispatch etc.</p><p>Of course there are some who feel a brigand brings nothing for their grp in particular, which might be true - but who cares about the attitude some people have towards this class when it`s still desirable for the whole benefit?</p><p>Whole benefit a paladin brings is neither buffwise, nor something you really wanna have around desperately - there are some gimmicks which are nice to have, but they arent missed at all if you dont have one around - while everyone will recognize dispatch is missing and calling for a brig if you`re lacking dps, because: brigand CAN DELIVER SOMETHING SPECIAL.</p>

Buzzing
09-06-2011, 03:29 PM
<p>I want to chime in, I really do...</p><p>But honestly... </p><p>There is maybe 4 or 5 end game paladins left and that number is likely to get even smaller. If the Dev team had to choose which class to fix we would be the bottom of the bucket as you would be helping less people.</p><p>On a side note ---</p><p>I was in easy mode Sullon's Spire and the Deathtouch still put me out of commission on the Hragdold The Frenzied Fight</p>

Triste-Lune
09-06-2011, 06:37 PM
welcome to the world of berserker. not really happy to see another class hit the bucket but well it s nice to not feel alone being the laughting stock of the tank. still i m pretty sure your issues arent even close to the berserker ones.

Buzzing
09-06-2011, 08:17 PM
<p><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>welcome to the world of berserker. not really happy to see another class hit the bucket but well it s nice to not feel alone being the laughting stock of the tank. still i m pretty sure your issues arent even close to the berserker ones.</blockquote><p>ummm yay?</p><p>Who is the worst contest... Like whos is bigger...</p><p>Great...</p>

Maergoth
09-06-2011, 08:30 PM
<p>Berserkers are still one of the best AOE tanks in the game.</p><p>Not having a brigand in the raid noticeably hurts DPS.</p><p>No guild in the world would opt out of having a troub in the raid</p><p>Paladins aren't one of the best anything in the raid.</p><p>Not having a paladin is a good thing.</p><p>No guild in the world should select a paladin if they can help it.</p><p>How is this even remotely comparable?  Troubs?  Brigands? You're comparing them in DPS alone to the other bard and rogue.</p><p>Yes, Berserkers are pretty wimpy  right now  but even they have seen some positive changes in the past 6 months.</p><p>Last update alone:</p><p><em><strong>Berserker</strong></em></p><ul><li>Enhance: Berserk Rage and Enhance: War Cry have been merged into Enhance: Berserk.</li><li>The Alternate Advancement “Berserk” now applies to the group and stacks with other forms of Berserk.  The damage per second and attack speed values have been increased.</li><li>Focus: Destructive Rage now applies correctly to the PvP Multi-Attack Chance.</li><li>Cyclones now also the casting speed of area effect combat arts.</li><li>Gut Roar now absorbs all physical damage for 3 seconds and casts in 0.25 seconds.</li><li>Perseverance now triggers when the Berserker falls below 50% health and grants a low chance to Stoneskin physical attacks after it triggers.</li><li>Enhance: Weapon Counter now also improves the Crit Bonus of Counterattack.</li><li>Enhance: Open Wounds now also improves the Crit Bonus of Open Wounds.</li><li>Enhance: Rampage now also improves the Crit Bonus of Rampage.</li><li>Enhance: Chaos now also adds Elemental, Noxious and Arcane mitigation to Chaos.</li><li>Enhance: Vision of Madness also applies damage reduction while Madness is active.</li></ul><p>Judge the class on it's own merits and benefits, not comparing it to other classes. They are capable in their own rights. At least berserkers are being looked at.</p><p>Paladin update notes? I'd paste them, but it might kill me inside.</p>

Buzzing
09-07-2011, 12:36 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Berserkers are still one of the best AOE tanks in the game.</p><p>Not having a brigand in the raid noticeably hurts DPS.</p><p>No guild in the world would opt out of having a troub in the raid</p><p>Paladins aren't one of the best anything in the raid.</p><p>Not having a paladin is a good thing.</p><p>No guild in the world should select a paladin if they can help it.</p></blockquote><p>This kills me...</p><p>True, but I hate to look at this way. I'm more actually going to hurt my guilds progression as time goes on...</p>

Faildozer
09-07-2011, 01:28 PM
<p>i have actually finished getting my zerker to 300 aa and betrayed him and I am starting to gear him out just because of the fights we are working on or will be working on shortly (valdemar, tormax, HM sullons) I know I will not be able to MT or will be more of a liability MT'ing as a paladin. The devs are going to lose too many people before they actually decide to acknowledge there is a problem much less start to address it. Pretty upset with the devs right now for a lot of reasons.</p>

Maergoth
09-08-2011, 04:31 PM
<p>Another update, no changes. Still just want some kind of indication that our class is being looked at..</p>

Buzzing
09-08-2011, 04:50 PM
<p>need something from the devs...</p>

Boli32
09-11-2011, 09:01 AM
<p>A slew of minor updates this week and yet nothing for pallys.</p><p>I know this is starting to seem like a broken record; but that is because it is an old old tune pallys play out as we have never really had the tools for both survival and agro other tanks have had; we have always just "made do"... and any decent buffs and bonuses we have received are the subjects of numerous complaints and calls to nerf.</p><p>No-one *ever* begrudged the Guardian's Tower of Stone or Reinforcement - and yet our Holy Ground was nerfed into oblivion and the calls to nerf pallys block chance started as soon as people realised what it could do; now SKs can almost get our block chance, guardians *can* with gear focuses and AA choices (although there have still been some calls to nerf it as ours "only costs 21 AA").</p><p>No-one moaned about a bruiser getting 10% damage reduction... but pallys get that and a 10% heal as well.. the calls to nerf that are *still* going on. NEWSFLASH: 10% heal doesn't mean squat if you are dead or the damage is warded - the only time it was every any good was when the buff was broken and the heal critted. And even then it still only triggered on the hardest of fights which punched through my wards with reguality.</p><p>We have been given NOTHING decent recently for fear it will cause waves and people will ask for a nerf... even our changes to heals have been a ninja nerf as since health levels have risen so much all we have traded them for is reduced recast and immunity to interupts (ok the last part was a change *long* overdue)... but the issue behind them was you took our heal crits away.</p><p>Reguardless throughout all the expansions I have raided in (KoS to RoV) I have *never* felt I couldn't tank it was always a an AA spec away or a few pieces of gear and I could "make do".... until Drunder.</p><p>Drudner is meant to be the definaing raid zone of this expansion... and so big and so powerful that no-one will be able to complete it until well into the next expansion pack where it will be the precusor to the raid zones in there... and yet try as we might a Paladin *cannot* main tank it. We are meant to be the joint most defensive tank, or even the second most defensive after guardians... but we simply *cannot* tank a zone.</p><p>THAT is broken and I log on the official forums every day hoping for a fix ... because its not as if pallys bring a raft of other utility to a raid force and massive DPS..... Its not as if we don't WANT to bring anything else we want to bring the ability to tank.</p><p>No other class is as broken as pallys right now... for brigs and troubs may have issues... no raid is going to leave them behind; and at least Zerkers and SKs bring a lot of AoE DPS to the table... and the way things stand survive better than pallys.</p><p>... So why bring a pally?</p>

Maergoth
09-11-2011, 06:42 PM
<p>Funny little story for you guys.</p><p>In SF, it was possible to gain 2 DI triggers on Divine Favor by casting it with timewarp. Paladin survivability was much less of an issue then, and reflect enabled us to do decent DPS if we used it right.</p><p>Sure, it generally meant misusing it and reflecting failures, but at least it was something FUN to do.</p><p>I just joined Equilibrium, and they had a good Paladin tank for years. Jeal maintanked for them BEFORE all the other tank classes got their uber changes and boosts and before the game became so incredibly unfriendly to our class.</p><p>They have extraordinarily high expectations and were happy to have me.</p><p>How soon until they realize that the class can't perform like they remember? Who knows.</p><p>How long until I'm unable to meet their expectations? Hopefully not until I make member.</p><p>These residual and misplaced feelings of the class being well off absolutely need to be dispelled. Just because the people who haven't switched away from Paladin are the only ones who know how to play it, doesn't mean it's good. It means we do okay with very little.</p><p>My only hope is that they keep using me for backup tanking when the guardian and monk need help, which is so incredibly infrequent that I'm glad stacking all of my saves is usually enough to survive the few times I need to tank.</p>

Karagon
09-11-2011, 07:06 PM
<p>Paladin is best tank in holding agro. It do not need anything even, while all other tanks need to push buttons rapidly, make agro adorns, have agrobuffs in groups, etc... mobs would always stay on pally if he would turn on autoatack and use some taunts and other abilities. So he supposed to be the worst one in survivability. </p><p>SOE - you did great balance of tanks in this expansion. One tanks are good in surviving (monks, bruisers), others good in holding AE agro (sk, zerker, pally), others good in holding solo target agro (pally, guardian), some have good raid utility except that (guardian). So players need to chose class that fit role they want to play the best.  It's first expansion when you need different classes of tanks to do different kind of job to kill harder mobs faster and easier. And all classes of tanks now are useful. Do not break this balance please.</p>

Cyrdemac
09-11-2011, 07:22 PM
<p>I would trade my Amends for a Reinforcements any day. Amends doesnt help a ... in an x-pac where so much mem-wiping mobs exist and Paladin has the worst snap aggro, beside worst survival and most likely worst DPS (wich also results in the worse snap aggro) of all fighter classes atm.</p><p>But we can heal...a bit.</p>

Crismorn
09-11-2011, 07:26 PM
<p>Once brawlers are taking down a few pegs "remove strikethrough immunity, etc." balance will once again be where it should be.</p>

Maergoth
09-11-2011, 07:33 PM
<p><span><strong>@Karagon</strong></span></p><p>LOL. What exactly are you proposing gives paladins the ability to hold aggro "without even trying"? And how does "The most aggro" instantly mean "The least survivability"? What's the point of holding aggro if you're dead? Doing the least DPS and having the best aggro/survivability makes sense.</p><p>In a proper tank group, any other tank would have an assassin hate transfer, coercer transfer/hategain and dirge hategain. Not only are they sitting at 30% hate transfer or so (Higher with out of group transfers and guardian amends), but they have the other tools that their class innately has as well.</p><p>Ours? We have amends. That's it.</p><p>Your argument actually works contrary to what you think. Paladins HAVE their own transfer, but transfer is capped at 50%. As a result, we gain close to nothing by being in a proper tank group. Other tanks can get better transfers to help their hate out. Ours is already capped, and unless we have amends on a warlock or wizard (Which would never happen outside of the mage group), we CANNOT hold AOE aggro. Not outside of easymode, and certainly not with memwipes.</p><p>Paladins have ZERO tools to enable recovery from memwipes or death, which is unfortunate because of how easy it is for us to die.</p><p>We also provide the least utility and the least DPS of any tank class in the game.</p><p>This is the first expansion where only SOME tanks can do SOME jobs, and PALADINS can't do any of them well. The game has never been balanced around easymode or trivial content, and I'm assuming you've never been in a competitive raid in your life.</p><p>Instead of coming into a thread and vomiting misinformation all over the place, maybe <strong>read it first.</strong></p><p>As for brawlers being nerfed and the game being balanced.. again, you have no idea about the Paladin class apparently. You're not offering feedback, you're just guessing. Would do everyone a huge favor if you didn't troll and derail the feedback thread.</p>

Karagon
09-11-2011, 09:31 PM
<p><cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would trade my Amends for a Reinforcements any day.</p></blockquote><p>lol? just roll a guardian and you would have it. What's your problem? you want all tank classes be similar?</p>

Fyang
09-11-2011, 09:37 PM
<p><cite>Karagon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Paladin is best tank in holding agro. It do not need anything even, while all other tanks need to push buttons rapidly, make agro adorns, have agrobuffs in groups, etc... mobs would always stay on pally if he would turn on autoatack and use some taunts and other abilities. So he supposed to be the worst one in survivability. </p><p>SOE - you did great balance of tanks in this expansion. One tanks are good in surviving (monks, bruisers), others good in holding AE agro (sk, zerker, pally), others good in holding solo target agro (pally, guardian), some have good raid utility except that (guardian). So players need to chose class that fit role they want to play the best.  It's first expansion when you need different classes of tanks to do different kind of job to kill harder mobs faster and easier. And all classes of tanks now are useful. Do not break this balance please.</p></blockquote><p>You totally didnt read this thread.</p>

Karagon
09-11-2011, 09:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><strong>@Karagon</strong></span></p><p>LOL. What exactly are you proposing gives paladins the ability to hold aggro "without even trying"? And how does "The most aggro" instantly mean "The least survivability"? What's the point of holding aggro if you're dead? Doing the least DPS and having the best aggro/survivability makes sense.</p><p>In a proper tank group, any other tank would have an assassin hate transfer, coercer transfer/hategain and dirge hategain. Not only are they sitting at 30% hate transfer or so (Higher with out of group transfers and guardian amends), but they have the other tools that their class innately has as well.</p><p>Ours? We have amends. That's it.</p><p>Your argument actually works contrary to what you think. Paladins HAVE their own transfer, but transfer is capped at 50%. As a result, we gain close to nothing by being in a proper tank group. Other tanks can get better transfers to help their hate out. Ours is already capped, and unless we have amends on a warlock or wizard (Which would never happen outside of the mage group), we CANNOT hold AOE aggro. Not outside of easymode, and certainly not with memwipes.</p><p>Paladins have ZERO tools to enable recovery from memwipes or death, which is unfortunate because of how easy it is for us to die.</p><p>We also provide the least utility and the least DPS of any tank class in the game.</p><p>This is the first expansion where only SOME tanks can do SOME jobs, and PALADINS can't do any of them well. The game has never been balanced around easymode or trivial content, and I'm assuming you've never been in a competitive raid in your life.</p><p>Instead of coming into a thread and vomiting misinformation all over the place, maybe <strong>read it first.</strong></p><p>As for brawlers being nerfed and the game being balanced.. again, you have no idea about the Paladin class apparently. You're not offering feedback, you're just guessing. Would do everyone a huge favor if you didn't troll and derail the feedback thread.</p></blockquote><p>Dead? lol??? pally in this exp and mb later is just supposed to tank adds who must be burned as fast as possible, and that do not hit very hard. You already can hold agro on them in mage group! withut any agrobuffs that can't be put in that mage group due to lack of spots.. You have all for it. Do it. Do not pretend on role of imba tank who can take any spot in raid and tank named with huge AEs and huge autotatacks.</p><p>We had pally in guild for quite long time - and he tanked AE targets quite well. Amends is ok for that. + some agro adorns that can be put in many different places in this expansion. Point of pally that he do not need! dirge or coercer or assassin to hold agro! and as soon as you just can't take 3rd dirgee, etc.. in raid - that is really cool, cause you almost always need 3rd tank in raid nowadays.</p><p>Also they have quite good abilities to survive VS adds - fast CD stoneskin, manaward, deathsave, aura, legionaire - all this is ok for surviving vs some adds, even hard hitting one's.</p>

Maergoth
09-11-2011, 09:44 PM
<p><cite>Karagon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would trade my Amends for a Reinforcements any day.</p></blockquote><p>lol? just roll a guardian and you would have it. What's your problem? you want all tank classes be similar?</p></blockquote><p>You yourself said that Amends basically "Makes" the paladin class. Now, someone is legitimately telling you that another class' aggro tool is better than ours, which is all we have, and you're still maintaining that stance?</p><p>Why balance classes at all then? Just have 3 classes: Tank, DPS, Heals.</p><p>Or.. Just one class. Call it "Class", and enable it to do whatever it wants. Why is that wrong? Because it's boring, lazy, and unnecessary.</p><p>Just as unnecessary as it is to expect Paladins to just "Play something else".</p><p>The point is, if a Paladin can tank a set of adds, so can any other tank in the game. However, there are a ton of things a paladin CANNOT do, which every other class can. If you had read the thread, you would know. However, you're just ignorant and flailing your arms around in broken english without a clue.</p>

Karagon
09-11-2011, 09:47 PM
<p>it's not better agro tool. Amends is used to HOLD agro actually. Reinforcement used to catch memwipes as fast as possible for short time based fights. It's two different abilities. Just choose the class with the one you want more, or you need more. Actually in hard mode DOV raid content there is place for both of them.</p>

Maergoth
09-11-2011, 09:56 PM
<p><cite>Karagon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>it's not better agro tool. Amends is used to HOLD agro actually. Reinforcement used to catch memwipes as fast as possible for short time based fights. It's two different abilities. Just choose the class with the one you want more, or you need more. Actually in hard mode DOV raid content there is place for both of them.</p></blockquote><p>Actually in hard mode DOV content, any tank can "Hold" aggro, but not every tank can "get" aggro. Both Paladins and shadowknights have an issue with snap aggro. Paladins moreso, however. Especially on AOE content, which according to you, is our niche.</p><p>You're not informed on the topic, and you're just trolling for no reason. Find somewhere else to lie, because I find it very hard to believe you're this ignorant.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong><span style="color: #ffffff;">It's not "Okay" to force us to class hop because they refuse to make Paladins desirable. </span></strong></span></p>

Karagon
09-11-2011, 10:19 PM
<p>Reading your 1st post in this topic i just see you want to be an imba tank who can hold agro well, catch memwipes well and also have great survivability. It shouldn't be so. It i don't agree with you - it do not mean that i am troll lol.</p><p>I played guardian a lot (was OT for some years), then i played zerker a lot (was MT for some years) and still playing it now, now in dov they just make bruisers and guardians best for MT spot and guardians, zerkers, SKs, Pallys best for OT and 3rd tannk spots. And i am ok with that.</p><p>I would easily choose pally as 3rd tank for mage group because i think it is best for it - due to what i see in our raids. We are pulling statue of rallos zek (hard mode) now and our SKs just can't hold agro well from that group - sorcs grab adds from them, sometimes and die. Pallys won't have such problems. Mb memwipes are - but there is still another tank in raid to catch them in OT group - it should be guardian or zerker - with reinforcement/or AE positionals with low cd... Pally can put on 3-4 adorns for positional agro procs - and it would really help a lot.</p><p>So don't think that you are the only one who's opinoin is right. I really think pallys have all they need to do their role in raid - hold agro in ANY group and do not die from adds. Also catch AE adds with holy ground and some other AEs (pallys have enough of the,) and catch some memwipes. They also have few positional agro abilities for that. Also pally give 1k mitigation to raid - what is also cool as soon as all mobs in the expansion have trauma AEs that hit sorcs hard (i remember when we took pally to some avatars in TSO as 2nd window just fot that buff).</p><p>For my opinion now there should be 3 tanks in raid:</p><p>1) MT (in group with dirge, coercer, assassin/brig) - the one who is focused on best survivablity, solo target DPSing/agro, solo target memwipes.</p><p>Monk, bruizer, guardian fit this role best. In summary i would say that best of 3 is monk, but i would chose guardian for some of fights due to it's specific - if i can.</p><p>2) OT (in 2nd group with dirge, coercer, assassin/brig) - the one who is focused on catching adds that spawn - catching memwipes on them, holding agro, who also can catch named if MT die and stay with it for some time.</p><p>Guardian, zerker fit this role best. In summary i would say that guardian is best of 2, but zerker is also good, and even better for some fitghts (we just use guardian all time due to it's unique abilities - AE prevent on other tanks (you can see that working on soren in my video in my sig), HP buff to raid and increasing agro of all tanks in raid using 1 ability with low CD.</p><p>3) 3rd tank (for mage group with 0 agrobuffs or transfers) - the one who is focused on actual dpsing, and holding agro on adds. Not catching many memwipes - but just holding agro and preventing DPSers die.</p><p>Pally, SK fit this role best. I would say pally even better. But we use SKs just due to the fact they like to DPS and do not want to roll to pallyes. It i could - i would trade at least 1 of them to pally easily.</p>

Silzin
09-11-2011, 10:25 PM
I have been following this thread over the time its bin going, and i am very sorry to hear any tank in the shape that yall are saying the Pally is in. As a monk which came back during TSO and trying to raid tank some in SF i completely understand and want all tank to be a viable tanking option. But i have 2 majer problems with your arguments here. 1. I have seen Paladins MTing "most" of the content this expansion and they are doing JUST FINE. 2. I still think the Drunder HM content is BROKEN. It is not really released in a playable state. when it is in a playable state then I am very sure the Pally's will be able to tank it. With this said i do think that the Paladin class does need some help in the survivability stand point. I have always seen the Paladin as 1 of the 2 Defensive tanks, the SK and Zerker as the 2 AE/ Offensive tank and the Brawlers and ... well before we were given the tools to not get randomly one-shotted no one counted us as a "Real Tank"

Boli32
09-11-2011, 11:10 PM
<p>Drunder HM content may be broken *somewhat*... but it has served to highlight the issues pallys have been experiancing for a *long* time.</p><p>And perhaps more importantly Pallys are SUPPOSED to be one if not the joint most defensive tanks in the game.. when the content gets hard we are SUPPOSED to be the ones who stand up and tank it; not hide away in a corner and have an alt brawler or guard tank it who has half the gear and only a quarter of the experiance and see them tank it better.</p>

Alliciia
09-11-2011, 11:24 PM
<p>I like how I perform as an OT but ya, MTing is a little lacking.</p>

Maergoth
09-11-2011, 11:31 PM
<p>If our position is to be the mage group DPS backup tank, whatever. That's fine.</p><p>There is one big requirement for that though:</p><p>DPS AND UTILITY</p><p>Our DPS is awful, compared to a brawler filling the same role in the scout group.</p><p>We contribute nothing to the group whatsoever. Combat mastery anyone?</p><p>Paladins are fine tanking anything easy. So are Wizards. <strong>Offtanking isn't just limited to spam adds</strong>. It includes being able to tank the named if the main tank goes down. I can't even stay in through AOEs enough to BE second on the hate list incase something goes wrong.</p><p>Yes, Drunder hardmode content is broken.. but it's killable. All content goes through those phases, until it gets nerfed into its intentional difficulty. However, overcoming the broken mobs is what sets a guild apart from the competition.</p><p>Being unable to use a paladin for that means I will never be able to participate in top end content without hindering my guild.</p>

Fyang
09-12-2011, 12:50 AM
<p>Just make Paladin defensive or offensive even utility buff for group, I will be ok with that.</p>

Karagon
09-12-2011, 01:47 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If our position is to be the mage group DPS backup tank, whatever. That's fine.</p><p>There is one big requirement for that though:</p><p>DPS AND UTILITY</p><p>Our DPS is awful, compared to a brawler filling the same role in the scout group.</p><p>We contribute nothing to the group whatsoever. Combat mastery anyone?</p><p>Paladins are fine tanking anything easy. So are Wizards. <strong>Offtanking isn't just limited to spam adds</strong>. It includes being able to tank the named if the main tank goes down. I can't even stay in through AOEs enough to BE second on the hate list incase something goes wrong.</p><p>Yes, Drunder hardmode content is broken.. but it's killable. All content goes through those phases, until it gets nerfed into its intentional difficulty. However, overcoming the broken mobs is what sets a guild apart from the competition.</p><p>Being unable to use a paladin for that means I will never be able to participate in top end content without hindering my guild.</p></blockquote><p>Combat mastery give much less than 15cb/pot raidbuff for same 15 sec's lol. It give less than 20k DPS to assassin in my group on long fights oh HM's, almost nothing to dirge, and almost nothing to myself either. Mb 25-30k dps in summary for 5-10 min fights or so.</p><p> What about tanking named if MT goes down - i was talking about 3rd tank group, not OT group. At least as we raid in6 healers 3rd tank always tank with 1 inq healing it - and it wouldn't be able to survive until named for long time anyway - either it's pally or SK/zerker/guardian. Mb monk/bruiser can - but i can't imagine him tanking something from mage group. It has zero possibilities for holding agro there. Sо we always use OT from the group with 2nd dirge, 2 healers, coercer to take named if MT down. And if pally would be in such group for some reason - i thing it wouldn't be problem for him to survive for 15 sec's while i get named back. Just use legionaire's+aura or stoneskin. Or mystic use oberon on you.</p><p>Only thing i think pallyes need - critting heals - especially their ward. I don't really understand why soe made all fighter heals non critical.</p>

Controlor
09-12-2011, 02:58 AM
<p><cite>Karagon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If our position is to be the mage group DPS backup tank, whatever. That's fine.</p><p>There is one big requirement for that though:</p><p>DPS AND UTILITY</p><p>Our DPS is awful, compared to a brawler filling the same role in the scout group.</p><p>We contribute nothing to the group whatsoever. Combat mastery anyone?</p><p>Paladins are fine tanking anything easy. So are Wizards. <strong>Offtanking isn't just limited to spam adds</strong>. It includes being able to tank the named if the main tank goes down. I can't even stay in through AOEs enough to BE second on the hate list incase something goes wrong.</p><p>Yes, Drunder hardmode content is broken.. but it's killable. All content goes through those phases, until it gets nerfed into its intentional difficulty. However, overcoming the broken mobs is what sets a guild apart from the competition.</p><p>Being unable to use a paladin for that means I will never be able to participate in top end content without hindering my guild.</p></blockquote><p>Combat mastery give much less than 15cb/pot raidbuff for same 15 sec's lol. It give less than 20k DPS to assassin in my group on long fights oh HM's, almost nothing to dirge, and almost nothing to myself either. Mb 25-30k dps in summary for 5-10 min fights or so.</p><p> What about tanking named if MT goes down - i was talking about 3rd tank group, not OT group. At least as we raid in6 healers 3rd tank always tank with 1 inq healing it - and it wouldn't be able to survive until named for long time anyway - either it's pally or SK/zerker/guardian. Mb monk/bruiser can - but i can't imagine him tanking something from mage group. It has zero possibilities for holding agro there. Sо we always use OT from the group with 2nd dirge, 2 healers, coercer to take named if MT down. And if pally would be in such group for some reason - i thing it wouldn't be problem for him to survive for 15 sec's while i get named back. Just use legionaire's+aura or stoneskin. Or mystic use oberon on you.</p><p>Only thing i think pallyes need - critting heals - especially their ward. I don't really understand why soe made all fighter heals non critical.</p></blockquote><p>Heretic's destruction is 10 seconds not 15. You also are ignoring / missing / over estimating abilities on paladins which have been pointed out already to be either bad or poorly implimented.</p><p>Divine Aura will not help with spike damage due to the 50% health requirement.</p><p>Manawall "will" help with spike for like 2 seconds than paladin is OOP and are having to recover from that. That is assuming that the fight itself is NOT a power drain fight in which case Manawall is useless.</p><p>Lego Conviciton is fickle on spike damage. It "works" if the paladin is fully warded up to absorb the other 60% of the damage you dont reflect. (I dont remember if it was you or someone else who mentioned it earlier but).... LC does NOTHING for dps either, with it not being able to crit, not effected by pot / mod / bonus, cant be modified by reuse... Yah thanks.</p><p>It has also been stated a paladins roll is SUPOSED to be 2nd most defensive tank in game... Paladins are SUPOSED to be tanking stuff (or being main OT). NOT 3rd tank. We have 2nd lowest dps of all the tanks (Guardians are lower imo). That is pretty much the point of this thread. We are not 3rd tanks we are MT / primary OT's as we sacrafice a lot of dps and utility in an attempt to gain survivabilty which we just do not have at the moment.</p><p>We are not asking for much, just the ability to actually survive spike damage. It has been said in this thread that given the option between having survivabilty or snap agro we would take survivability. Though we would appreciate 1 more snap. We are not asking to be unkillable. We are not asking to be OP. We ARE asking to have the tools to do the job of a tank and survive against mobs.</p>

Netty
09-12-2011, 03:44 AM
<p><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Karagon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If our position is to be the mage group DPS backup tank, whatever. That's fine.</p><p>There is one big requirement for that though:</p><p>DPS AND UTILITY</p><p>Our DPS is awful, compared to a brawler filling the same role in the scout group.</p><p>We contribute nothing to the group whatsoever. Combat mastery anyone?</p><p>Paladins are fine tanking anything easy. So are Wizards. <strong>Offtanking isn't just limited to spam adds</strong>. It includes being able to tank the named if the main tank goes down. I can't even stay in through AOEs enough to BE second on the hate list incase something goes wrong.</p><p>Yes, Drunder hardmode content is broken.. but it's killable. All content goes through those phases, until it gets nerfed into its intentional difficulty. However, overcoming the broken mobs is what sets a guild apart from the competition.</p><p>Being unable to use a paladin for that means I will never be able to participate in top end content without hindering my guild.</p></blockquote><p>Combat mastery give much less than 15cb/pot raidbuff for same 15 sec's lol. It give less than 20k DPS to assassin in my group on long fights oh HM's, almost nothing to dirge, and almost nothing to myself either. Mb 25-30k dps in summary for 5-10 min fights or so.</p><p> What about tanking named if MT goes down - i was talking about 3rd tank group, not OT group. At least as we raid in6 healers 3rd tank always tank with 1 inq healing it - and it wouldn't be able to survive until named for long time anyway - either it's pally or SK/zerker/guardian. Mb monk/bruiser can - but i can't imagine him tanking something from mage group. It has zero possibilities for holding agro there. Sо we always use OT from the group with 2nd dirge, 2 healers, coercer to take named if MT down. And if pally would be in such group for some reason - i thing it wouldn't be problem for him to survive for 15 sec's while i get named back. Just use legionaire's+aura or stoneskin. Or mystic use oberon on you.</p><p>Only thing i think pallyes need - critting heals - especially their ward. I don't really understand why soe made all fighter heals non critical.</p></blockquote><p>Heretic's destruction is 10 seconds not 15. You also are ignoring / missing / over estimating abilities on paladins which have been pointed out already to be either bad or poorly implimented.</p><p>Divine Aura will not help with spike damage due to the 50% health requirement.</p><p>Manawall "will" help with spike for like 2 seconds than paladin is OOP and are having to recover from that. That is assuming that the fight itself is NOT a power drain fight in which case Manawall is useless.</p><p>Lego Conviciton is fickle on spike damage. It "works" if the paladin is fully warded up to absorb the other 60% of the damage you dont reflect. (I dont remember if it was you or someone else who mentioned it earlier but).... LC does NOTHING for dps either, with it not being able to crit, not effected by pot / mod / bonus, cant be modified by reuse... Yah thanks.</p><p>It has also been stated a paladins roll is SUPOSED to be 2nd most defensive tank in game... Paladins are SUPOSED to be tanking stuff (or being main OT). NOT 3rd tank. We have 2nd lowest dps of all the tanks (Guardians are lower imo). That is pretty much the point of this thread. We are not 3rd tanks we are MT / primary OT's as we sacrafice a lot of dps and utility in an attempt to gain survivabilty which we just do not have at the moment.</p><p>We are not asking for much, just the ability to actually survive spike damage. It has been said in this thread that given the option between having survivabilty or snap agro we would take survivability. Though we would appreciate 1 more snap. We are not asking to be unkillable. We are not asking to be OP. We ARE asking to have the tools to do the job of a tank and survive against mobs.</p></blockquote><p>To be honest who have stated that? I have never heard that statement befor. The only talk about making pallys into a defensiv tank was in the past when they was about to strip you from your aoe hate/dps. Since ST tank was to be the most defensiv. But that idea got scraped a long time ago since none wanted to lose anything.</p><p>Dont get me wrong. I do feel that the pally class could use a stone skin buff and maybe change HG into something inline with reinforcement. You can say all you want that pallys are suposed to be that or the other but there is no sens or truth in it to be honest. Only what you feel the class should be. Again dont get me wrong. I hate it that you do need so much protection vs huge hits this expack but still.</p><p>Both crusaders serv as UT/OT:s even if you dont see it. Easy aggro in lesser groups. Mit buffs CB/POT raid wide.. group cure, group heal and alot of other stuff to help out the group.</p>

Boli32
09-12-2011, 05:45 AM
<p>It has been stated numerous times, from the inital game release to the aborted fighter revamp, Pallys ARE defensive tanks... it is why we give up so much as far as DPS/utility is concerned. The idea always was healing and healing based abilities will "make up the difference between us and guardians"... except it has never been that way.</p><p>The only reason pallys ever got a DPS boost was we shared a lot of our AAs with Shadowknights; (knight's stance, Legionaries conviction, since nerfed, enhanced proc damage, group potency) remove all those; and our DPS drops like a rock to well below that of guardians.</p><p>HD is a nice boost... but if you replace pally with ANY OTHER tank except guardians you'll add more DPS to the raid through other buffs and personal tank dps.... trust me it isn't that big of a deal.</p><p>Issue is... and has been for a while... HARD content; and when EVERY OTHER TANK can tank the current hard mode content better than we can. It doesn't matter how good our suposed agro is (memblurs invalidate any agro statement).. anyways every other tank can hold agro just fine with a decent tank group our "agro advantage" is more an "agro convience" if the swash or assasin doesn't log on.</p><p>In a perfect tank group Guardians and brawlers will *easily* be able to hold agro... SKs and zerkers sometimes struggle on memwipes but exceel against multiple targets.</p><p>What does pally bring... erm we can rez?</p>

Cyrdemac
09-12-2011, 05:46 AM
<p>Reading all this almost makes me quitting my Paladin for good.</p><p>The only reason, Paladins are still in OT and even MT positions this x-pac is not, because our class is desired and needed but because we had this position in the raidforces the last years and a lot of ppl didnt realised yet how bad our class is right now against the current content.</p><p>A good player can compensate a lot of things but missing tools for tanking are hard to compensate without hindering the own raidforce.</p>

Maergoth
09-12-2011, 06:26 AM
<p>I consider myself one of the best paladins in the world currently. A few people can attest to that, if not talk me up even higher than I am willing to.</p><p>However, just recently an acquaintance of mine main switched from shadowknight to monk. With less gear, fewer AA and FAR less experience on that class, he is able to tank everything I can.</p><p>Yes, A few people might die to an AOE set. However, there are very few fights in the game where that will break the fight. There are tons of fights, though, that the main tank CANNOT die on. Even fights where the offtank can't afford to die. Why can every other tank do almost everything satisfactory or better, and our class can't do anything well? And I'm GOOD at this class. Being outdone by far worse players is agonizing.</p><p>The fact of the matter is, no matter where you want to pigeonhole our class or explain how, when the stars aline, our heals are useful, we are not exceptional at anything. We don't do good DPS, we don't have good aggro, we don't have good survivability, and we don't contribute much to raids.</p><p>This class is not desirable for anything except tanking a ton of wimpy adds, which both shadowknights AND EVEN BERSERKERS can do just as well if not better. (8 Target max on our AOEs, anyone?) The only time we even have the survivability edge over either of those two classes is IF we take divine aura (Which one of them also has access to) and give up even MORE dps and utility.</p><p><strong><span style="color: #ffffff;">Again, it sounds unbelievably bad because it IS unbelievably bad. The people saying paladins are fine can't believe what we are saying. I can't even believe what I'm saying. It doesn't make sense. No one would ever let this fly intentionally.</span></strong></p>

tsunewolf
09-12-2011, 09:56 AM
<p>My ALT guardian with PQ GEAR can survive better than my MAIN Paladin with HM GEAR, that is unacceptable. </p>

Karagon
09-12-2011, 10:02 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My ALT guardian with PQ GEAR can survive better than my MAIN Paladin with HM GEAR, that is unacceptable. </p></blockquote><p>i lol!</p>

Boli32
09-12-2011, 10:04 AM
<p><cite>Karagon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My ALT guardian with PQ GEAR can survive better than my MAIN Paladin with HM GEAR, that is unacceptable. </p></blockquote><p>i lol!</p></blockquote><p>Whilst that is an exageration; it is annoying close to accurate at times.</p>

tsunewolf
09-12-2011, 10:43 AM
<p>okay... he may have a lil' more than just pq gear... but still... horrible.</p>

Anurra
09-12-2011, 01:22 PM
<p><cite>Karagon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So don't think that you are the only one who's opinoin is right. I really think pallys have all they need to do their role in raid - hold agro in ANY group and do not die from adds. Also catch AE adds with holy ground and some other AEs (pallys have enough of the,) and catch some memwipes. They also have few positional agro abilities for that. Also pally give 1k mitigation to raid - what is also cool as soon as all mobs in the expansion have trauma AEs that hit sorcs hard (i remember when we took pally to some avatars in TSO as 2nd window just fot that buff).</p></blockquote><p>I'm sorry but you are wrong on the Paladin's snap aggro postionals. We have THREE abilities (2 of which all fighters can get) for a grand total of <span style="font-size: large;">7</span> positions. 7 hate positions means nothing when you are at the bottom. All of them are short ranged too (at most 10 m). <strong>If we lose aggro in raids to a mem wipe or die we are pretty much powerless to get it back on our own.</strong> How do I know this? Because it has happened to me many times. The old Holy Ground was made for mem wiping mobs/dying but was changed to its current form when SF released.</p>

Maergoth
09-12-2011, 01:23 PM
<p>Actually, it's closer to the truth than you'd think.</p><p>Even with PQ gear, a guardian can put up enough saves and aggro snaps to handle a wave of adds. Since this is apparently all we're capable of doing, I don't see any reason they won't live just fine.</p><p>As for surviving versus a hardmode named in PQ gear: If crit mit wasn't an issue, they would definitely perform much better than our class would in the same situation.</p><p>Holy ground right now is mediocre dps (can't be used all the time because of sustained hate reasons, and the one position is only good for snapping when you DON'T want to) and it's mediocre aggro (Hate on each hit.. more sustained threat which no tank has an issue with).</p><p>YES, in TSO PALADINS WERE FINE. The only thing we struggled with was Ykesha because of the death touch. Mit was much lower so our 900 raidwide mit buff was good (And the mitigation mechanics worked differently, notice your 40k to all resists in the stat window?)</p><p>You wouldn't have brought a Paladin to raids in TSO without super overpowered holyground.</p>

Anurra
09-12-2011, 01:37 PM
<p>I have a mixture of EM and x2 gear on my paladin. I have 161 crit mit and around 36k hp. We were doing the x2 and I kept getting completely destroyed by the end boss (our raid force was not optimal, I will say that). So I decided to have our monk try and tank just to see what would happen. It was getting late anyways. He has less crit mit, less HP, less AAs (I have 300 and he has around 270) and slightly less gear than me. He also JUST started playing his monk after about a year off of the game and previously, his main was a wizard. He lasted a lot longer than me.<strong> I'm not trying to knock on monks. I'm just saying this is what happened. I'm all for boosting up other classes instead of nerfing.</strong></p><p>By the way guys, I sent SmokeJumper a private message and put in a bunch of links to Paladin threads. Maybe he'll read it and decide to do something!</p>

Faildozer
09-12-2011, 01:42 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I have been following this thread over the time its bin going, and i am very sorry to hear any tank in the shape that yall are saying the Pally is in. As a monk which came back during TSO and trying to raid tank some in SF i completely understand and want all tank to be a viable tanking option. But i have 2 majer problems with your arguments here. 1. I have seen Paladins MTing "most" of the content this expansion and they are doing JUST FINE. 2. I still think the Drunder HM content is BROKEN. It is not really released in a playable state. when it is in a playable state then I am very sure the Pally's will be able to tank it. With this said i do think that the Paladin class does need some help in the survivability stand point. I have always seen the Paladin as 1 of the 2 Defensive tanks, the SK and Zerker as the 2 AE/ Offensive tank and the Brawlers and ... well before we were given the tools to not get randomly one-shotted no one counted us as a "Real Tank" </blockquote><p>The thing is, other classes are able to tank the drunder HM content and take the hardest hitting aoes that paladins right now have NOTHING to combat. You said paladins are taking MOST of the content just fine... That right there is the problem. The harder the content and paladins problems become more apparent. Again, you said so yourself that you think paladins are 1 of the 2 defensive tanks yet we cant tank or are a liability on the hardest content. Paladins have always been lacking these tools this expac, its just we have been able to get by with good healing and smart play which only goes so far and now we are at that point where you cant mask the issues any more.</p><p>The lack of a dev response at this point in any of the fighter threads is ridiculous.</p>

Anurra
09-12-2011, 03:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The lack of a dev response at this point in any of the fighter threads is ridiculous.</p></blockquote><p>They either have no plans for the fighters OR they have no idea how their game works and cannot comment. Either way, it stinks.</p>

Faildozer
09-12-2011, 04:23 PM
<p>Im positive it is the second of the two. It wouldnt be an issue if they would at least listen to player feedback. I would be happy with just a post acknowledging they have at least seen these threads and tell us they plan on doing something or to shut up.</p>

Anurra
09-12-2011, 04:56 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Im positive it is the second of the two. It wouldnt be an issue if they would at least listen to player feedback. I would be happy with just a post acknowledging they have at least seen these threads and tell us they plan on doing something or to shut up.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with you. There are 24 (soon to be 25) classes in this game. There is absolutely NO system (the forums aren't that considering the lack of involvement with the devs) in place to get good feedback for these classes in all aspects of the game (solo, group, raiding [em/hm]). Couple that with an ever changing landscape of developers and producers...well, it is chaos really. Then we end up with situations like this.</p><p>Huge oversight, IMO. I like this game a lot. I really like the fun and challenge this game brings. I like the people who play it. I just wish the developers had a better handle on the classes and everything that involved them. Oh well, can't win it all and there is always next time.</p>

Maergoth
09-12-2011, 06:32 PM
<p><span style="color: #ffffff;"><strong>I would like to formally thank everyone participating in this thread. As vain as the effort may seem, the fact that it isn't just me and Boli or Buzzing contributing means a lot.</strong></span></p><p>It adds to the credibility of the thread, and it definitely means this issue isn't just a numbers one, it's a people one. Enough people are upset with their Paladins that they are willing to go out of their way and contribute to this thread.</p><p>It's gone far beyond a class balance or content balance issue. It's very difficult to even claim ignorance here. We're giving you all the information you need and more. We're conjuring up hypothetical situations and recollecting/reenacting actual ones.</p><p>I check this thread probably around fifty times in a day.</p><p>I'm disappointed more often than just every time I contribute nothing to the raids.</p><p>I'm disappointed that it's apparently not even worth addressing.</p>

Gungo
09-12-2011, 06:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually, it's closer to the truth than you'd think.</p><p>Even with PQ gear, a guardian can put up enough saves and aggro snaps to handle a wave of adds. Since this is apparently all we're capable of doing, I don't see any reason they won't live just fine.</p><p>As for surviving versus a hardmode named in PQ gear: If crit mit wasn't an issue, they would definitely perform much better than our class would in the same situation.</p><p>Holy ground right now is mediocre dps (can't be used all the time because of sustained hate reasons, and the one position is only good for snapping when you DON'T want to) and it's mediocre aggro (Hate on each hit.. more sustained threat which no tank has an issue with).</p><p>YES, in TSO PALADINS WERE FINE. The only thing we struggled with was Ykesha because of the death touch. Mit was much lower so our 900 raidwide mit buff was good (And the mitigation mechanics worked differently, notice your 40k to all resists in the stat window?)</p><p>You wouldn't have brought a Paladin to raids in TSO without super overpowered holyground.</p></blockquote><p>The first thing pallies need is for a reliable stoneskin on at least a modifiable 90 sec recast. So They can be the reliable maintank counter in the crusader tree.</p><p>On the positional issues imho Holy ground probably should just be a high damage aoe atk and loose the positional kinda like monks and guards do not have any aoe positionals. Instead you guys need at least 2 strong single target positional abilities a peel/cry of the warrior long range positional with 4 positions.  And another 3-4 positional ability something in the realm of reinforcement/mantis leap/provoking stance which turns your spell atks into positionals.  </p><p>Those two changes would balance the monk-Guard-paladin single target maintank class.</p><p>I would also like to see bezerker-bruiser-shadowknight balanced in the same way.</p>

Maergoth
09-12-2011, 07:05 PM
<p>I agree. Drop the position on holy ground, maybe make it group wide buff or something, deaggro for non fighter classes.</p><p>Would give us necessary utility, and honestly.. I can't think of a single situation where the initial position on holy ground is necessary. </p><p>As for adding positionals to something else via a temp buff, I agree as well.</p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;"><strong>Stoneskin wise.. I'd rather have a modifiable one on a 2 minute base that applies on a single magical hit over 30% of our health.. maybe slapped onto Stonewall with the final rank of the AA in Heroic.I don't remember whose idea this was, but I like it.</strong></span></p><p>Btw, no one puts points into stonewall in the heroic tree. It's worthless compared to 10 overall reuse. It's also close to cap from reuse alone. This is a good place to start.</p>

Gungo
09-12-2011, 07:14 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree. Drop the position on holy ground, maybe make it group wide buff or something, deaggro for non fighter classes.</p><p>Would give us necessary utility, and honestly.. I can't think of a single situation where the initial position on holy ground is necessary. </p><p>As for adding positionals to something else via a temp buff, I agree as well.</p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;"><strong>Stoneskin wise.. I'd rather have a modifiable one on a 2 minute base that applies on a single magical hit over 30% of our health.. maybe slapped onto Stonewall with the final rank of the AA in Heroic.I don't remember whose idea this was, but I like it.</strong></span></p><p>Btw, no one puts points into stonewall in the heroic tree. It's worthless compared to 10 overall reuse. It's also close to cap from reuse alone. This is a good place to start.</p></blockquote><p>Thats a good and balanced suggestion but you guys should have something to deal with the large aoe frontal physical hits as well in raids. At least two stone skins are needed for a maintanking rigth now. 1 pure physical ability and a physical/magical one as well. Seperate recasts would be best imho.</p><p>Of course fixing manawall would help (make it a flat 10% or even 20% power damage per hit). especially since it was posted at fanfaire we will get more AA to put into our AA trees with the new expansion.</p>

Maergoth
09-12-2011, 07:19 PM
<p>For now, I'm just shooting for "mostly capable". We've got a long way to go, and every step forward is a leap compared to what we've seen lately.</p><p>LC might not be 100% reliable, but in combination with another stoneskin, it might give us enough toolsl to at least offtank effectively. Maintanking would still require rotation potential, but asking for that much without proper testing is careless and unnecessary.</p><p>Our incoming physical damage isn't too much of a problem though. Crusader's Faith is good enough to lock us green against melee hits for the short while that's up, though multiple mobs can easily chew through it.</p>

Controlor
09-12-2011, 07:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For now, I'm just shooting for "mostly capable". We've got a long way to go, and every step forward is a leap compared to what we've seen lately.</p><p>LC might not be 100% reliable, but in combination with another stoneskin, it might give us enough toolsl to at least offtank effectively. Maintanking would still require rotation potential, but asking for that much without proper testing is careless and unnecessary.</p><p>Our incoming physical damage isn't too much of a problem though. Crusader's Faith is good enough to lock us green against melee hits for the short while that's up, though multiple mobs can easily chew through it.</p></blockquote><p>Actually a simple adjustment could be made to allow for blocking both a physical and magical attack.</p><p>Change LC to reduce damage by 80% and reflect 100% back. Let the reuse be modifiable and change the duration to 5 seconds or so Keep it so it can not crit (possibly bump the reuse to 2 min 30 seconds if it is modifiable). This would make it MUCH more reliable in dealing with a magical death touch and the 5 second duration is not overpowering as it will not stop full waves of magical AOE's.</p><p>The final rank for Stonewall in Heroic tree add a 2 hit Physical stoneskin. This would fit the theme of the spell in that it blocks physical hits. (or for the SK's dodges physical hits with furror). My only concern would be if they ever added strike through mechancis to this spell then the physical stoneskin would be meaningless (which is prob why people are suggesting magical stoneskin for it).</p><p>Neither of these changes would overpower them and would go to helping both SK's and paladins in main tanking (though paladins would still not have a unique to them stoneskin).</p><p>As for snaps, I wouldnt mind seeing what gungo suggested with regards to either HG or adding positionals to our spells through aa.</p>

Maergoth
09-12-2011, 09:08 PM
<p>LC was just changed, and further changes to it would affect both Paladins and Shadowknight equally. Shadowknigths are currently where they should be, survivability wise. Obviously, that's my opinion, but they're the offensive crusader. They have more lives than us, more than twice as many saves and giving them access to LC of that frequency and power would land them firmly capable as maintanks.</p><p>If that's what they're aiming for, that's fine.. but then, what's the point of playing a Paladin? SKs would be able to tank everything, do more DPS, and still provide more utility.</p><p>LC is fine in its current form.. low reuse and duration pigeonholes it into solely raid effective and a planned tool, rather than something available and useful in many situations.</p>

Controlor
09-12-2011, 10:09 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LC was just changed, and further changes to it would affect both Paladins and Shadowknight equally. Shadowknigths are currently where they should be, survivability wise. Obviously, that's my opinion, but they're the offensive crusader. They have more lives than us, more than twice as many saves and giving them access to LC of that frequency and power would land them firmly capable as maintanks.</p><p>If that's what they're aiming for, that's fine.. but then, what's the point of playing a Paladin? SKs would be able to tank everything, do more DPS, and still provide more utility.</p><p>LC is fine in its current form.. low reuse and duration pigeonholes it into solely raid effective and a planned tool, rather than something available and useful in many situations.</p></blockquote><p>Same could be said for adding a magic damage stoneskin to the Heroic Tree for stonewall.</p><p>Pretty much all of the paladin survivability is tied to both crusaders. The only meaningful change that would not effect both classes would be to change arch healing into a stoneskin (which i am for as that ability is currently useless). Either that or to have our "heals" overhauld once more which i highly doubt they will.</p>

Anurra
09-12-2011, 10:26 PM
<p><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LC was just changed, and further changes to it would affect both Paladins and Shadowknight equally. Shadowknigths are currently where they should be, survivability wise. Obviously, that's my opinion, but they're the offensive crusader. They have more lives than us, more than twice as many saves and giving them access to LC of that frequency and power would land them firmly capable as maintanks.</p><p>If that's what they're aiming for, that's fine.. but then, what's the point of playing a Paladin? SKs would be able to tank everything, do more DPS, and still provide more utility.</p><p>LC is fine in its current form.. low reuse and duration pigeonholes it into solely raid effective and a planned tool, rather than something available and useful in many situations.</p></blockquote><p>Same could be said for adding a magic damage stoneskin to the Heroic Tree for stonewall.</p><p>Pretty much all of the paladin survivability is tied to both crusaders. The only meaningful change that would not effect both classes would be to change arch healing into a stoneskin (which i am for as that ability is currently useless). Either that or to have our "heals" overhauld once more which i highly doubt they will.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, the Heroic Tree ability is Manawall (that drains power). Both Crusaders get this one. The Shadows Tree has Stonewall, which only the Paladin gets. May you find this information useful!</p>

Maergoth
09-12-2011, 10:52 PM
<p>Correct. Stonewall is the shadows endline, and there is an AA in the heroic tree to reduce the reuse of it. The final point in that section should add a magical stoneskin trigger for >30% of our hp.</p>

tsunewolf
09-12-2011, 11:03 PM
<p>The only time the 1 position on Holy Ground has been useful is during HM Tormax when the adds spawn as it gets them w/o pulling the named.</p>

Maergoth
09-12-2011, 11:04 PM
<p>Except, I pulled aggro on the named, and the dragon, and the adds still rampaged around because I got co-op struck from my amends target dpsing.</p><p>1 position on adds that no one is hitting is less effective than just AOEing.</p><p>If Ancient Wrath hits for 1000, that's 1000 hate.</p><p>If holy ground puts you above a shaman dog which warded 10 points of damage, that one position is worth 10 hate. Maybe 5? I don't know the heal-to-hate ratio.</p><p>It's just dumb. It's only good for when the mob memwipes off someone else, assuming previous hate is maintained and you're not far from the top. Even then, it's rarely enough.</p>

tsunewolf
09-12-2011, 11:06 PM
<p>I pop amends on and off depending, but I haven't had it pull aggro from him or dragon at all.. I stand right next to him when adds spawn so it's out of range of dragon anyway</p><p>Edit: If you AOE your reflecting damage back to yourself if things line up wrong, HG than encounter n' it's on me np... now that I think about it more it's more likely due to the initial taunt it has than the position, I retract my previous statement.. the 1 position is exactly as you just said.</p>

Controlor
09-12-2011, 11:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LC was just changed, and further changes to it would affect both Paladins and Shadowknight equally. Shadowknigths are currently where they should be, survivability wise. Obviously, that's my opinion, but they're the offensive crusader. They have more lives than us, more than twice as many saves and giving them access to LC of that frequency and power would land them firmly capable as maintanks.</p><p>If that's what they're aiming for, that's fine.. but then, what's the point of playing a Paladin? SKs would be able to tank everything, do more DPS, and still provide more utility.</p><p>LC is fine in its current form.. low reuse and duration pigeonholes it into solely raid effective and a planned tool, rather than something available and useful in many situations.</p></blockquote><p>Same could be said for adding a magic damage stoneskin to the Heroic Tree for stonewall.</p><p>Pretty much all of the paladin survivability is tied to both crusaders. The only meaningful change that would not effect both classes would be to change arch healing into a stoneskin (which i am for as that ability is currently useless). Either that or to have our "heals" overhauld once more which i highly doubt they will.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, the Heroic Tree ability is Manawall (that drains power). Both Crusaders get this one. The Shadows Tree has Stonewall, which only the Paladin gets. May you find this information useful!</p></blockquote><p>I know that manawall is one of the endlines in Heroic tree i was refering to the one which reduces the reuse on Stonewall in Heroic tree. The proposal that some have asked in this thread is that the 10th rank in that would add a 1 or 2 hit magic damage stoneskin (as Meargoth stated below you). I was refering to that proposal itself. My statement that our saves are pretty much shared between SK's is also accurate.</p><p>Divine Aura / Manawall / LC - Crusader abilities</p><p>Stonewall / Furror are "unique" to class from SF but they effectivly do the same thing so i treat them as the same spell (100% block / 100% Riposte).</p><p>I was just trying to make the point that the only thing to add unique saves to the paladin would be to change some things in the Paladin tree. Making Arch Heal into a stoneskin is one of the only ways to do this wothout borking everything else up. Though they could always add stoneskins to our heals with AA's but that is unlikely (really only sacrament would be a viable one for that if any due to reuse timer).</p>

Maergoth
09-12-2011, 11:49 PM
<p>Yes but the reuse on Furor would make it more balanced towards Paladin survivability, where it is definitely more necessary. That's the only point I was making.</p>

Boli32
09-13-2011, 07:41 AM
<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Just passing the time this morning and I thought to myself: Hey we have spent the last few months moaning about this... but if you could see some update notes what would be the best update notes you could see... for the time I was writing this I was in my happy place... having the skills well thought out and balanced to my class tanking everythgin I was asked to and generally feeling happy about the game....  ahhh well maybe it will happen one day <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">My thoughts:</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><strong><span style="font-size: large;">THIS IS NOT REAL</span></strong>Spell ChangesPaladinPrayer of HealingIs now an until cancelled group buff which heals the group by a small amount every 2.0s Each time this triggers it takes a small amount of the paladins power.Devout SacramentIs no longer a direct heal, but a reactive with a single trigger with a 20% min health requirement. the heal amount remains the same but the recast has increased to 5min.Holy AidIs no longer a direct heal but a heal over time.Holy groundThe initial AoE positional on holy ground has been removed, instead a 1 hate position on a successful spell or combat art has been added to the trigger effect instead.AA ChangesCrusaderLegionaries Wrath: Now increases the cast speed of the crusader by 5% per rank instead.Legionaries Mercy: Now adds a small magical damage reduction (5% at 10 ranks) insteadLegionaries Focus: Now adds a small chance to spell double attack instead (10% at 8 ranks)Legionaries Conviction: The damage portion of the spell has been changed to a small AoE proc when attacked by magical forces and can now be modified although its recast has been increased to 3min and its duration reduced to 10sPaladinEnhance: Prayer of Healing:  reduces the power taken by 20% per rank (max 100%)Enhance: Devout Sacrement: No longer reduces the power cost; instead at 5 ranks adds an effect which increases the paladin's max health by 20% for the duration.Enhance: Lay on Hands: Reduces power cost increased to 20% per rank (max 100%)Arch Heal: For a short duration heals and wards on the paladin are increased by 50%; this has a base reuse of 3min and a duration of 10sEnhance: Elixir of Resuscitation: at 5 ranks this cause the target to be teleported to the feet of the nearest healer instead of the paladin.Enhance: Intercept: Now heals the caster rather than the target when it triggers.Devout Faith: No longer increases the ward of Demonstration of Faith; instead it is a single rank which costs 5 AA which adds a single trigger Magical Stoneskin to Demonstration of Faith; this effect doubles the recast.HeroicConfidence: At 10 ranks this now adds a single physical stoneskin to Stonewall and *significantly* increases the riposte damage of Shadow Knight's Furor. (like 1000%)Resilience: Now increases the size of wards as well.Manawall: 50% of the power consumed is returned to the crusader 3 seconds after Manawall expires or is terminated should they survive. The recast has been increased to 5min.ItemsFocus: Prayer of Healing: Adds 5% Magical reduction to Prayer of healing.<strong><span style="font-size: large;">THIS IS NOT REAL</span></strong></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Reasoning:</strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Prayer of Healing</span>Prayer of Healing is the Paladin's first heal (faith strike not withstanding); and initially it will drain power a lot (much like yaulp does) and for soloing and your first grouping experience a little heal over time which ticks will be thought of as a great addition. Once you progress into where you will need a full time healer the power requirements will mean you will start to use it only when you can and not all the time unless you take the AA choice which will remove the power requirements but the amount healed should be small but “always there”.Later on you can enhance the healing power of this spell if you wish in the shadows tree to reflect the increasing health pools and damage taken; but that option is not needed; in fact if you find you don;t use it at all you can easily toggle it off and spec out of the power reduction AA.And finally once you start to raid and get raid gear you have the focus which increases magical damage reduction by a small amount to the group giving much needed utility and stability to the paladin's groupThe heal amount need not be great at all, in fact 4k every 7.5s is the current prayer which will be ~500hps if I cast it constantly; having a tick of 150 at level 90 every 2.0s is not stepping on anyones toes and is much less than the heal as it stands now; more a gimmick and flavour in raids than anything else... but a 5-6 heal every 2.0s at level 5 or a 10-12 heal every 2.0s at level 20 is very important to the starting paladins.The heal should be a nice touch, nothing fancy but raiders will use it for the focus effect mainly.<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Holy Aid</span>Holy Aid is the button which you generally use to heal people or yourself it is the de-facto “paladin heals you” button; sure enough the increased healing power helps a lot for spike damage but that kind of ruined the spell in all honesty as the recast meant no-one really used it outside of raiding and even then the casting time meant quite often your healers got their first and we have have a larger self heal and a faster lay on hands to choose from.So splitting up its healing power to a small heal over time will mean it will find its use from solo, to group to raid as “a little extra” as much as a warrior will increase their mitigation a paladin has the option of adding a little extra healing to themselves.Say the current Holy Aid is recast 60s, heals 10,000-12,000  having a 20s duration HoT with 10 ticks of 1k-1.2k every 2.0s is just the same amount of heal but its up a lot more and will “feel” like you are doing more... in much the same way a warrior will put up their temp buffs.<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Devout Sacrament</span>This ability is always too slow to cast if you manage to cast it your healers are either stunned or under pressure and most of the time you do manage to cast it a healer wil have gotten there first. By changing it into a pseudo save it will allow it to be used intelligently instead of just hoping it will actually land and heal yourself. The 20% min health will remove it a lot from soloing and grouping but the changes to the other heals will give us plenty of options to play around with.The max health increase with AA is needed to make this “save” viable in raids. 20% sounds like a lot, indeed it is but used correctly it will allow us to quickly increase our health to survive a large attack, heal a chunk of it with sacrament and return to normal. In short using our healing power to protect ourselves from attacks like guardians will use theirs to protect themselves from harm.<strong>Stoneskins:</strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Demonstration of Faith</span> – 1 magical stoneskin trigger recast 120s (can prob push it down to 90s)This will be the most controversial of the changes; but we really do need a fast recast stoneskin we can rotate with our saves; a no nonsense “cast this and you will survive spell”; if we do get a stoneskin on our ward we will have to increase the recast as 30s on a stoneskin is just “too” good. A 120s recast with abiity to push down to 90s with AA seems appropriate... won't be able to to defend against every AoE but will be used with regularity to survive them.<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Stonewall</span> – 1 physical stoneskin trigger, recast 90s (~ 60s recast with most gear/AA)There is a huge AA investment to get this capping out the shadows tree and most of the heroic tree with their requirements. The recast is not as short as the magical stoneskin and this may trigger from a simple else attack (as stonewall can be struck through, or mobs can attack from behind). Done right this will stoneskin a single attack which breaks through our stonewall so the spell itself will be much more reliable against physical attacks; but not perfect.<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Devout Sacrament</span> – reactive heal and max health increase -  recast 5min (average prob 3min)There will be a lot of moaning from the health increase (esp if stacked with bolster) but it will be a short duration, long recast buff which may not be effective if you are being attacked by a percentage based attack (such as a death touch)but imho is the prefect pally save relying on heals more than stoneskins... it won't be perfect if you don't have the wards on you you can still die as the heal will not trigger... but played right it will add survivability and flavour to the class instead of a single “ stoneskin this now” approach<span ><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Arch Heal</span> - 3min recast (prob 2m20s with gear) - increase heals on paladin for short duration</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">I have always liked the idea of gravitas and the coercers's intelectual remedy, but instead of being "bonuses" they are up so often and recast so fast they are more "expected" instead of a bonus effect. So if the reverse coudl be true, a buff on a tank which significantly increases heals and wards on them it would have the potential to act as a save without actually healing or stoneskin and woudl be a perfect paladin save. We have always been "easy to heal" outside of the HM raid enviroment; as we proc heals and cures - so how about transfering that "can heal pallys easier" to the raid enviroment... we even have an AA choice which is underused and is in need of a make-over. to me it sounds liek the perfect "save"... not perfect - no but will allow pallys to have increases survival whilst workign WITH the healers, not against them.<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Legionaries conviction</span> – 3min (modifiable) magical damage reduction and reactive damage proc)There was nothing wrong with the recast with this in last expansion, or how we used to use it to survive magical only attacks the issue was with and always was the duration (so you could defend against 2 AoEs at once) and the damage itself.Making it 10s duration instead of 20s removes one complaint and imho changing the damage to a static AoE damage is MUCH better, it will be like the crusader is “dispersing the effect” away from him... still taking damage yes but removing most of it and turning it against any enemies close by, it does not need to be MUCH damage (2-3k with crit) but its more the damage prevention and the flavour it will be used for.<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Manawall</span>Even on its best day this spell cannot be cast every time it is up unlike every other save in the game and on power drain fights it is next to useless... a small fix to make it more viable (although not perfect) would be to return all power it uses a few seconds after it expires  in essence acting like a secondary coercer who replenishes it after each time.So on none power drain fights it *can* be used more regularly; although it will not be perfect I think increasing the recast to 5min to reflect this change to more of a “last resort save” will be much better, especially if we could get the power back; although truefully there are not many crusaders who will spec it as zealous smite is far more useful.  But changing it to return power even with an increased recast will be good for those “emergencies”</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"> </p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Conclusion</strong></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">I think all of these changes would go a long way to balancing the crusaders, and especially paladins against the current content without being too overpowered and unlock the paladins heals as valid spells... of course seen just on their own they will seem ridiculous  but changing a few things on other classes such as increasing mitigation and +skills from warrior's temp buffs among many changes needed will go a long way to balance the classes beyond the ridiculous.</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"> </p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">/END DREAM WORLD</p><p>Back to reality; the paladin class NEEDS fixes, and our heals are a prefect way to resolve that we are a defensive tank with abilities which give little to no defensive power outside of soloing I hope that the new expation we will see some long overdue fixes.</p>

Silzin
09-13-2011, 09:37 AM
I must say Boli that most of the time people ask for fare more then is reasonable, but I don’t think you did here. Some of the numbers would need playing with I am sure but most all of what you are asking here I really don’t think is out of the range of balanced, and reasonable.

Korhallen3
09-13-2011, 10:09 AM
<p>I really liked Boli's ideas, and they seem reasonable indeed. However, one change I would make would be to Legionaire's Conviction. Instead of an AE dmg dispersement like you have proposed, it could read something like:</p><p>Absorbs 75% of the next magic spell cast on the Crusader, and channels 25% of that absorbed damage in to a single charge (per person) ward for the group. </p><p>The reasoning behind that being, the Crusader uses his faith to withstand the blow and is rewarded for his/her conviction with a blessing for the group. A 100k magic AE absorb translates in to a 25k hit to the Crusader, then an 18750 ward for each person in group - something a shaman could do anyway, but adds to utility. Hell, you could even go so far as to make it a straight 75% absorb, and then an AA in Paladin tree to add the secondary effect to that. Whichever. </p>