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Runelaron
08-14-2010, 02:26 PM
<p>So Olihin and I had a discussion about a lot of PVP issues at the fan fair. After talking and seeing his side, we both agreed on whats going on and what needs to be done. </p><p>First off, Olihin has been a PVP player his whole life and after talking with him, I can see he really knows what hes doing and talking about, so please have confidence. And after I explain this, it should help.</p><p><span style="color: #339966;">FIRST OFF</span></p><p>So they had a couple major problems before in PVP. </p><p>-Fights weren't lasting long enough for tactics to come into play and pvp was unbalanced.</p><p>Solution... Add toughness and created PVP gear to prolong the fights.</p><p>-This allowed them to see more flaws in spells and tactics used. IT ALSO allowed them to see things there where not perfectly balanced, by amplifying minor flaws.</p><p>This is a good way to now go back, and correct all the problems with Procs, Gear, Spell Duration, and Damage.</p><p>(Which have all be adjusted now and are much better than they where.)</p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Its not so Simple as you think......</span></p><p>What has to be taken into consideration.</p><p>- Current and Upcoming PVE balances (have to offset those for PVP)</p><p>- Upcoming PVE Gear</p><p>- Class effectiveness in Solo and Group PVP. (things get amplified in groups, sometimes to much)</p><p>- New AA from the expansion.</p><p>- Tactics/Stacking of spells</p><p>- Old world gear that is still used for certain procs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Solution</span></p><p>Create a foundation for PVP and then build on that foundation. This will allow the developers to see what they need to fix, and then focus on those issues one at a time and refining them.</p><p><p>So if I can give you an example.</p><p>You have to add new content and armor.. thats what creates progression. But by adding, a few things get unbalanced (Because they where not initially designed with PVP in mind.)</p><p>So now they must go back and Fix these issues to create a SOLID pvp experiance.</p></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Conclusion</span></p><p>So Olihin is now now Adamantly working to balance PVP, fix gear/spell imbalances, and oversee the future for healthy PVP combat.</p><p>Also Olihin reads everything! Even though he may not respond. So please keep suggestions coming if you see something broken or slightly wrong.</p><p>PVP is only going to get better, but it will take time especially in this games state of change.</p><p>Hope this helps everyone, Thanks.</p>

Truck
08-14-2010, 02:57 PM
<p>Unless he makes PVE a viable option for progressing you character in PVP(thus getting people back into instances and raids to work for that loot that will make them better in PVP) the server is going to continue to decline.</p><p>As I've stated in another thread..this game is NOT all about PVP,which is blatantly obvious. That being said..PVP in this game is(was) some of the best PVP in all of the current MMO's. The diversity in skills and knowing when to use them is unmatched. But when you take away the desire to do the PVE aspect of this game,you're taking away 75% of what EQ2 is about. When you're doing nothing but PVPing,it gets VERY boring after a short period of time,especially when your choices in gear progression are limited to one copy and pasted set that looks like every other set.</p><p>This game NEEDS PVE to function properly as a PVP game,allowing people to progress their gear by doing instances/raidzones,Thus filling the time when they aren't PVPing and making them look forward to testing that new piece of gear they just got. As it is now..no one is running instances,and the people who are raiding are just going through the motions..they don't really care about any of that gear because it isn't going to help them win in PVP..the only reason they are still raiding is because their guild depends on them.</p><p>TL;DR=Return the game to it's roots. A primarily PVE game,where you have the option of going out to PVP.(Not BG's..I mean like the days of KoS/EoF when people raided to gear themselves up to go out and own the other six groups from the other faction.)</p>

convict
08-14-2010, 07:06 PM
<p>It all sounds good, but I have a feeling their not even considering pvp atm. More than likely, they are spending all resources on the free servers, marketplace items, the expansion and their other 2 new mmo's.</p><p>Things are staying broken for far too long in this game, it smells of swg developement.</p>

Taldier
08-14-2010, 07:15 PM
<p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So Olihin and I had a discussion about a lot of PVP issues at the fan fair. After talking and seeing his side, we both agreed on whats going on and what needs to be done. </p><p>First off, Olihin has been a PVP player his whole life and after talking with him, I can see he really knows what hes doing and talking about, so please have confidence. And after I explain this, it should help.</p><p><span style="color: #339966;">FIRST OFF</span></p><p>So they had a couple major problems before in PVP. </p><p>-Fights weren't lasting long enough for tactics to come into play and pvp was unbalanced.</p><p>Solution... Add toughness and created PVP gear to prolong the fights.</p><p>-This allowed them to see more flaws in spells and tactics used. IT ALSO allowed them to see things there where not perfectly balanced, by amplifying minor flaws.</p><p>This is a good way to now go back, and correct all the problems with Procs, Gear, Spell Duration, and Damage.</p><p>(Which have all be adjusted now and are much better than they where.)</p><p> ...</p></blockquote><p>If this is supposed to be a comforting thought it isnt...</p><p>Using the only live pvp server like its an internal testing server and causing more and more people to quit as the pvp system becomes increasingly broken while things are being "tested and fixed" would be incredibly stupid and unethical to paying customers.</p><p>Not to mention the fact that the dramatic changes in mechanics which broke everything essentially doomed the stupid battlegrounds they unveiled (that they wasted all that development time on) to a slow death as most of the blubies are tired of dealing with all the broken crap.</p><p>I actually would perfer assuming that they simply dont know what they are doing tbh.</p>

Bosconi
08-14-2010, 07:59 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">TBH man, Stonewill values are nerfed SO excruciatingly bad in PvP, it's kinda ridiculous.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The only thing that makes a top tier group menacing is whether the priests are equipped with quality and basic skill or not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If heals are the weak link in an opposing group, good DPS can cut through mostly everyone else, aside from Berserkers, effectively.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">While damage gets terribly reduced so much, heals are pumping away at near full throttle.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'd start with reducing the damage mitigation component of toughness (45 toughness would equal 1% damage mit, instead of 15 toughness), and I'd NOT increase critical mitigation, because then that just defeats the purpose.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If that wasn't enough, I'd completely remove damage mitigation, but leave toughness separate from PvE crit mit.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Should survivability still be crazy at that point, I'd nerf heals in PvP by 15% or so.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Just halving the damage mitigation component to toughness might be enough, but testing must be thorough.</span></p></blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ward proc/reflect gear wasn't around for all of TSO, and for lowbies, it's definitely out of place and excessive considering their DPS output, how much HP these wards cover, and then comparing that to the ward/DPS values for top tier.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">(P.S. To YasikoSetsuna/Penello...thou shalt beith but nerfed!)</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Someone on EQ2Flames had mentioned that he frowned upon quoting posts when they were felt to be profound, when 1 quote was made to note a portion of the argument that was overlooked.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">But, I'm quoting these posts here because <em>they are</em> profound.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Clear, distinct options are communicated for testing and resolving the issue of extremely excessive survivability.</span></p>

Shredderr
08-14-2010, 08:12 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Unless he makes PVE a viable option for progressing you character in PVP(thus getting people back into instances and raids to work for that loot that will make them better in PVP) the server is going to continue to decline.</p><p>As I've stated in another thread..this game is NOT all about PVP,which is blatantly obvious. That being said..PVP in this game is(was) some of the best PVP in all of the current MMO's. The diversity in skills and knowing when to use them is unmatched. But when you take away the desire to do the PVE aspect of this game,you're taking away 75% of what EQ2 is about. When you're doing nothing but PVPing,it gets VERY boring after a short period of time,especially when your choices in gear progression are limited to one copy and pasted set that looks like every other set.</p><p>This game NEEDS PVE to function properly as a PVP game,allowing people to progress their gear by doing instances/raidzones,Thus filling the time when they aren't PVPing and making them look forward to testing that new piece of gear they just got. As it is now..no one is running instances,and the people who are raiding are just going through the motions..they don't really care about any of that gear because it isn't going to help them win in PVP..the only reason they are still raiding is because their guild depends on them.</p><p>TL;DR=Return the game to it's roots. A primarily PVE game,where you have the option of going out to PVP.(Not BG's..I mean like the days of KoS/EoF when people raided to gear themselves up to go out and own the other six groups from the other faction.)</p></blockquote><p>I agree with this a lot . When I first pvp'd EQ2 was my only experience and it was a trip to me that i felt an adrenaline rush time to time . I have lost that enjoyable aspect , I believe the backward fame system is ulitimately responsible because I  no longer have anything to lose when I pvp . But worse yet it is work waiting on a group now a days for w/e reason this has happened it has and the result is that it is now more boring than a blue server and I regret deleting all my old toons from blue servers when I got addicted to pvp . One thing I would figure anyone would figure out is that never logging out should not be what constitutes a high ranking title . There is an overseer lives in QH I personally have never seen actually pvp , never and he is an overseer . Now i know he must but it must be so rare and infrequent where maybe he fights once every 2 weeks idk just have never seen him fight . Really hope some genius figures out that this makes all their work at designing and pvp game look highly trivial .</p>

Darkor
08-15-2010, 05:09 AM
<p>Toughness and this pvp ONLY experience is ruining this game. Before it was a good mix of PvP AND PvE. Both styles need to live side by side. Nowdays people only pvp to get their armor and the rest of the game is suffering. I dont mind people aquiring good armor via pvp. But i hate seeing people pvp a day or two to get a full set of kick butt armor and i spend 4 days a week raiding and im not going anywhere cause the pvp armor is superior. It should be equal, not superior. REMOVE TOUGHNESS and find a better way to fix the balancing. The game has to go back to the roots.</p>

Shankapotomus
08-16-2010, 01:56 PM
<p>So what you are saying is we are paying to be Beta testers on live servers?</p><p>I want a check in the mail pronto</p>

Shangu
08-16-2010, 02:10 PM
<p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So Olihin and I had a discussion about a lot of PVP issues at the fan fair. After talking and seeing his side, we both agreed on whats going on and what needs to be done. </p><p>First off, Olihin has been a PVP player his whole life and after talking with him, I can see he really knows what hes doing and talking about, so please have confidence. And after I explain this, it should help.</p><p><span style="color: #339966;">FIRST OFF</span></p><p>So they had a couple major problems before in PVP. </p><p>-Fights weren't lasting long enough for tactics to come into play and pvp was unbalanced.</p><p>Solution... Add toughness and created PVP gear to prolong the fights.</p><p>-This allowed them to see more flaws in spells and tactics used. IT ALSO allowed them to see things there where not perfectly balanced, by amplifying minor flaws.</p><p>This is a good way to now go back, and correct all the problems with Procs, Gear, Spell Duration, and Damage.</p><p>(Which have all be adjusted now and are much better than they where.)</p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Its not so Simple as you think......</span></p><p>What has to be taken into consideration.</p><p>- Current and Upcoming PVE balances (have to offset those for PVP)</p><p>- Upcoming PVE Gear</p><p>- Class effectiveness in Solo and Group PVP. (things get amplified in groups, sometimes to much)</p><p>- New AA from the expansion.</p><p>- Tactics/Stacking of spells</p><p>- Old world gear that is still used for certain procs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Solution</span></p><p>Create a foundation for PVP and then build on that foundation. This will allow the developers to see what they need to fix, and then focus on those issues one at a time and refining them.</p><p>So if I can give you an example.</p><p>You have to add new content and armor.. thats what creates progression. But by adding, a few things get unbalanced (Because they where not initially designed with PVP in mind.)</p><p>So now they must go back and Fix these issues to create a SOLID pvp experiance.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Conclusion</span></p><p>So Olihin is now now Adamantly working to balance PVP, fix gear/spell imbalances, and oversee the future for healthy PVP combat.</p><p>Also Olihin reads everything! Even though he may not respond. So please keep suggestions coming if you see something broken or slightly wrong.</p><p>PVP is only going to get better, but it will take time especially in this games state of change.</p><p>Hope this helps everyone, Thanks.</p></blockquote><p>I'll believe what a dev is working on when the dev says it.  not some random person.</p><p>mmmkay?  buhbye.</p>

Eritius
08-16-2010, 02:19 PM
<p>I'll throw this question out there since I see the statement pop up a few times, and I'm actually curious to what the answer is, I'm not trying to make a point by asking this.</p><p>Why do PVPers need a PVE method to progress in PVP? If instances and raids are dead on a PVP server is that really a bad thing? I'm under the impression that people will still do the instances and raids for kicks, and of course there's the multitude of PVE servers that ensure the PVE content is played. Keep in mind that the PVE stuff will be always there, but why would it need an incentive on a server where PVP is the focus?</p><p>Again this is an honest question and I'm not trying to debate, I just want to see the reasoning you all are getting at here. I think its awesome that PVPers can level and gear through PVP better here then one can in WoW (1-79).</p>

convict
08-16-2010, 04:00 PM
<p>To many times have we been "told" what we want to hear, but to many times they have not delivered. There are game breaking issues with the pvp servers that are going broken for way to long. Seen this happen in another soe game, and seeing it happen again, almost perfectly. Next we'll get a CU with new spell/skill animations that are worse than the current ones.</p>

Truck
08-16-2010, 04:24 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll throw this question out there since I see the statement pop up a few times, and I'm actually curious to what the answer is, I'm not trying to make a point by asking this.</p><p>Why do PVPers need a PVE method to progress in PVP? If instances and raids are dead on a PVP server is that really a bad thing? I'm under the impression that people will still do the instances and raids for kicks, and of course there's the multitude of PVE servers that ensure the PVE content is played. Keep in mind that the PVE stuff will be always there, but why would it need an incentive on a server where PVP is the focus?</p><p>Again this is an honest question and I'm not trying to debate, I just want to see the reasoning you all are getting at here. I think its awesome that PVPers can level and gear through PVP better here then one can in WoW (1-79).</p></blockquote><p>Because without PVE(PVE being 75% or more of this game,even on a PVP server) the game gets boring. PVPing all day just to get that cookie cutter gear that everyone else has gets boring. Having to wait for new cookie cutter gear to come out that you will already have ten minutes after it launches is boring!</p><p>Without PVE,the PVP aspect of this game is no where near as much fun. Being able to progress your character in PVP through PVE makes people play the aspects of this game that EQ2 was ACTUALLY made for. This is a PVE game first and foremost..PVP was an afterthought. That said..PVP WAS the best PVP I have ever play in any other MMO. When they took away the ability to progress your gear through raiding..people began leaving and still are.</p><p>Unless they make PVE a viable option to gear up for PVP..Nagafen is going to continue to circle the drain with no one ever running any instances..raids falling apart and people leaving.</p>

Taldier
08-16-2010, 04:25 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll throw this question out there since I see the statement pop up a few times, and I'm actually curious to what the answer is, I'm not trying to make a point by asking this.</p><p>Why do PVPers need a PVE method to progress in PVP? If instances and raids are dead on a PVP server is that really a bad thing? I'm under the impression that people will still do the instances and raids for kicks, and of course there's the multitude of PVE servers that ensure the PVE content is played. Keep in mind that the PVE stuff will be always there, but why would it need an incentive on a server where PVP is the focus?</p><p>Again this is an honest question and I'm not trying to debate, I just want to see the reasoning you all are getting at here. I think its awesome that PVPers can level and gear through PVP better here then one can in WoW (1-79).</p></blockquote><p>A lot of players, especially the ones who have been around for awhile, dont consider pvp and pve two seperate games like SOE has lately decided to do.  This isnt "Call of Duty: Norrath at War".  Its an rpg.</p><p>A pvp server is a server with the added element of realism that gives players the ability to kill each other.  Many players play on pvp servers to advance their character and then hunt down their enemies or compete against some of the stronger players on the server.</p><p>We consider standing in the middle of a field with a massive swarm of random anonymous people bashing each over the head, then reviving and bashing each over the head some more, to be pretty much even more boring than grinding the same pve mobs over and over.</p><p>On pve servers the purpose of pve is....what exactly?  Standing in qey harbor wearing shiny armor?  On pvp servers the purpose of pve is to kill people in pvp.</p><p>Pve in eq2 used to be contested.  Players had actual reasons to attack each other in pvp, contested pve zones.  And when people really wanted some action there would always be small groups of strong players roaming across various zones hunting each other.</p><p>Now we have none of that.  The only pvp that exists is standing in the middle of one open field in the middle of a horde of random noobs, that pretty much no one could care less about, and seeing which side gets bored first.</p><p>We have one set of gear with no alternate paths of advancement other than the incredibly pointless repetitive grinding.</p><p>Essentially this would be like the devs telling you this:"no, no raid loot will drop anymore except the set from this zone over here, and we will make it the most pointlessly annoying zone ever, it will be filled with 100000 trash mobs with 10000000000 health each, oh and it will be completable by characters not wearing any gear at all if they are willing to stand there for even longer, and they can bring in as many characters as they want at a time to attack the mobs, and each member of the 200 person raid gets automatic smart loot for autoattacking and going afk."</p><p>Competitive play on pvp servers is dead.  A big part of it is the easymode grind pvp system we are stuck with and the other big reason for it is because competitive pve play on all servers is essentially dead.</p>

Nemas Ravenor
08-16-2010, 04:27 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Unless he makes PVE a viable option for progressing you character in PVP(thus getting people back into instances and raids to work for that loot that will make them better in PVP) the server is going to continue to decline.</p><p>As I've stated in another thread..this game is NOT all about PVP,which is blatantly obvious. That being said..PVP in this game is(was) some of the best PVP in all of the current MMO's. The diversity in skills and knowing when to use them is unmatched. But when you take away the desire to do the PVE aspect of this game,you're taking away 75% of what EQ2 is about. When you're doing nothing but PVPing,it gets VERY boring after a short period of time,especially when your choices in gear progression are limited to one copy and pasted set that looks like every other set.</p><p>This game NEEDS PVE to function properly as a PVP game,allowing people to progress their gear by doing instances/raidzones,Thus filling the time when they aren't PVPing and making them look forward to testing that new piece of gear they just got. As it is now..no one is running instances,and the people who are raiding are just going through the motions..they don't really care about any of that gear because it isn't going to help them win in PVP..the only reason they are still raiding is because their guild depends on them.</p><p>TL;DR=Return the game to it's roots. A primarily PVE game,where you have the option of going out to PVP.(Not BG's..I mean like the days of KoS/EoF when people raided to gear themselves up to go out and own the other six groups from the other faction.)</p></blockquote><p>I have said exactly this in at least a half dozen, or more, posts in the last few months.  If Ohilin is really reading everything, then let me say that I think the HUGE SILENT MAJORITY of Nagafen players want to be able to progress their PVP survivability andn enjoyment through PVE.  There are end game raidiing guilds on Nagafen that love to do that content and yet the armor sets are useless in PVP.  Don't penalize us for playing the entire game that SOE created.</p><p>If there are PVPers who never want to set foot in a raid zone, fine, you have given them all the gear they need.  But please allow the people who raid and pvp to use their hard earned gear in PVP.</p><p>You want to do a little roleplaying/lore to figure this out? Fine.  Imagine it's all real for a second and my guild just killed Roehn Theer and I find an awesome piece of armor that I put on.  Why would that piece of armor not provide me with some of the best protection --- from anyone, even another player -- than anything else in all of Norrath?  It just doesn't make sense.</p><p>You want parity?  Fine, pretend you are the NFL and everyone has a salary cap.  If you aren't going to get rid of PVP gear entirely then Raid Gear and PVP gear should be equal at the very least.</p>

EndevorX
08-16-2010, 06:38 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll throw this question out there since I see the statement pop up a few times, and I'm actually curious to what the answer is, I'm not trying to make a point by asking this.</p><p>Why do PVPers need a PVE method to progress in PVP? If instances and raids are dead on a PVP server is that really a bad thing? I'm under the impression that people will still do the instances and raids for kicks, and of course there's the multitude of PVE servers that ensure the PVE content is played. Keep in mind that the PVE stuff will be always there, but why would it need an incentive on a server where PVP is the focus?</p><p>Again this is an honest question and I'm not trying to debate, I just want to see the reasoning you all are getting at here. I think its awesome that PVPers can level and gear through PVP better here then one can in WoW (1-79).</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">PvE content is the bulk of the EQ2 experience (socialize/raid/group/trade/decorate/recruit/manage/powerlevel/quest/do AA runs/mentor for all of the above</span><span style="color: #ff6600;">/tradeskill/harvest</span><span style="color: #ff6600;">).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Not enough capital exists to allocate enough developer resources for appropriately reforming the EQ2 PvP system into a more dominant powerhouse with comparable complexity (warfields objectives hold a very expansive potential).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Regardless, without warfields objectives, PvP encounters can often be limited in difficulty (but not resiliency).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">i.e. Try to target the priest with 8 tanks taunting you as you work through 2 second spell/combat art lag.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The only other arena for development is having PvP gear unlocked by your particular PvP rank (which would probably be bad and make people too finicky, cowardly, and evasive).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Again, we're like two out of twenty-six servers.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The idea that PvE progression is irrelevant to PvP is unfounded and inexcusably profane.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Many people PvP as successful elites with 70%+ of their specification coming from T9 raid drops.</span></p>

EndevorX
08-16-2010, 06:44 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ooops.</span></p>

Runelaron
08-21-2010, 04:20 PM
<p>Well after going to the Fanfair and having a long discussion about it. And they have to solve problems that arise when trying to balance over 120 spells per class.</p><p>Upon the countless armor effects and clickable items.</p><p>I don't think people grasp how much math and number crunching that is.</p>

Taldier
08-21-2010, 05:16 PM
<p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well after going to the Fanfair and having a long discussion about it. And they have to solve problems that arise when trying to balance over 120 spells per class.</p><p>Upon the countless armor effects and clickable items.</p><p>I don't think people grasp how much math and number crunching that is.</p></blockquote><p>If they try to balance a system this complex through pure number theory instead of with thorough internal testing it will always fail.  They constantly come up with "brilliant" ideas that make the entire game worse because they missed the massive holes in their ideas.  Things that would have never made it in game if they had been tested properly.</p><p>The dev team constantly forgets that players have brains too (which are often even more focused on the game then the devs themselves) and will adapt to take full advantage of changing rules faster than their small group of developers can.</p><p>Its not enough to just change something and then see if it does what is expected on some controlled test platform with a certain set of gear.  Whatever the internal testing variables are used for balancing pvp combat, those combined variables almost never occur in actual open combat.</p><p>Developers have to take into account everything a user could possibly do with a piece of software and account for it.  This isnt just for game design, its basic software design 101.  If a company tried selling you a piece of software and then said "here you test it yourself and tell me whats wrong so I can fix it later on, but give me your money first" you would never buy anything from that company again.</p><p>Questioning your own ideas is even more important in competitive multiplayer games because every single player is going to be looking for a way to beat the system to gain an advantage over other players.</p><p>And once they find a hole in some implementation of an idea, the knowledge of that hole spreads through the playerbase until everyone is doing the same things.  (zerg swarming to exploit writs, stacking ward/heal abilities/procs on top of toughness, sitting afk in immunity to avoid fame loss, etc, etc..)  Never assume that something is too absurd to happen if it would provide an advantage over those not doing it.</p><p>The whole system is dying and the devs are just randomly playing around with a surgeons tools and the patients vital organs based on what they read in an anatomy textbook.</p>

Neskonlith
08-23-2010, 12:11 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well after going to the Fanfair and having a long discussion about it. And they have to solve problems that arise when trying to balance over 120 spells per class.</p><p>Upon the countless armor effects and clickable items.</p><p>I don't think people grasp how much math and number crunching that is.</p></blockquote><p>If they try to balance a system this complex through pure number theory instead of with thorough internal testing it will always fail. </p><p>They constantly come up with "brilliant" ideas that make the entire game worse because they missed the massive holes in their ideas.  Things that would have never made it in game if they had been tested properly.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Want to see a funny preview of what you are pointing out, Taldier?</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff00ff;">Issue:</span> Rangers need to be seriously toned down in PVP when they receive ranged flurry and AE auto-attack.</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #ff00ff;">Source:</span> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=484634" target="_blank">Ranger Forum discussion thread here</a></span></p><p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div>Greetings, <strong>Mighty Forces</strong>!</div><div> </div><div>AE Auto-Attack and Flurry are indeed on the way for bows.  We're also removing the 20% damage penalty for bows, and we're increasing the damage rating on all 81-90 bows (along with throwing weapons) by about 10%.  The intent is to allow you guys to get full benefit from buffs and gear, not to make the class entirely focused on Auto-Attack.</div><div></div><div>You know how you get more auto-attack damage from your melee weapons in many cases than from your bow? These changes should fix that, unless your melee weapons are simply of much higher quality than your bow.  At most, your auto-attack may jump from ~20% of your parse up to ~30% on raids, but I'd be surprised if many people end up with it higher than that.</div><div></div><div>Thanks for all of your feedback.</div></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This scenario has obvious class balance disruptions incoming  - so much so that experienced Ranger/Assassin players like Gaige are already preparing for OP Ranger funtimes given that SOE appears to require a couple of months to collect data before a fix is eventually patched in:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><p><cite><span style="color: #00ccff;">Gaige wrote:</span></cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00ccff;">The reason I'm talking about betraying back already is because SOE can't do shifts in balance without screwing it up.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ccff;">Guardian/SK for example?  One goes from best tank in the game to meaningless and the other becomes extremely overpowered and it has been that way for months and is just starting to get addressed.  What about illy/coercer?  Illy used to be omg amazing and then poof all the sudden they suck lol.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00ccff;">Its pretty obvious that doing sweeping changes like this all at once will so crazily overpower ranger auto attack that they will have the ability to compete just buy pressing their ranged auto attack button.</span></p></blockquote></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Dust off your Ranger alts, more PVP hilarity incoming!</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p>

Taldier
08-23-2010, 02:26 AM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well after going to the Fanfair and having a long discussion about it. And they have to solve problems that arise when trying to balance over 120 spells per class.</p><p>Upon the countless armor effects and clickable items.</p><p>I don't think people grasp how much math and number crunching that is.</p></blockquote><p>If they try to balance a system this complex through pure number theory instead of with thorough internal testing it will always fail. </p><p>They constantly come up with "brilliant" ideas that make the entire game worse because they missed the massive holes in their ideas.  Things that would have never made it in game if they had been tested properly.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Want to see a funny preview of what you are pointing out, Taldier?</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff00ff;">Issue:</span> Rangers need to be seriously toned down in PVP when they receive ranged flurry and AE auto-attack.</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #ff00ff;">Source:</span> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=484634" target="_blank">Ranger Forum discussion thread here</a></span></p><p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div>Greetings, <strong>Mighty Forces</strong>!</div><div> </div><div>AE Auto-Attack and Flurry are indeed on the way for bows.  We're also removing the 20% damage penalty for bows, and we're increasing the damage rating on all 81-90 bows (along with throwing weapons) by about 10%.  The intent is to allow you guys to get full benefit from buffs and gear, not to make the class entirely focused on Auto-Attack.</div><div></div><div>You know how you get more auto-attack damage from your melee weapons in many cases than from your bow? These changes should fix that, unless your melee weapons are simply of much higher quality than your bow.  At most, your auto-attack may jump from ~20% of your parse up to ~30% on raids, but I'd be surprised if many people end up with it higher than that.</div><div></div><div>Thanks for all of your feedback.</div></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This scenario has obvious class balance disruptions incoming  - so much so that experienced Ranger/Assassin players like Gaige are already preparing for OP Ranger funtimes given that SOE appears to require a couple of months to collect data before a fix is eventually patched in:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><font color="#ff0000"><p>...</p></font></span></p></blockquote><p>Absolute lulz at ranged ae autoattacks.  Somehow my understanding of geometry leads me to believe that the frontal arc created by a 40-50 meter range is slightly larger than that of a sword?  "Umm yes...this is my <a href="http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/KnightDisciple/Motivators2/GatlingShotgun1.jpg" target="_blank">'gatling shotgun' </a>bow"</p><p>Atleast it will be easier for noob rangers to leach off the zerg swarms.  Im guessing rangers probably didnt have enough aoes to farm tokens at max efficiency.</p>

Vlahkmaak
08-23-2010, 03:18 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll throw this question out there since I see the statement pop up a few times, and I'm actually curious to what the answer is, I'm not trying to make a point by asking this.</p><p>Why do PVPers need a PVE method to progress in PVP? If instances and raids are dead on a PVP server is that really a bad thing? I'm under the impression that people will still do the instances and raids for kicks, and of course there's the multitude of PVE servers that ensure the PVE content is played. Keep in mind that the PVE stuff will be always there, but why would it need an incentive on a server where PVP is the focus?</p><p>Again this is an honest question and I'm not trying to debate, I just want to see the reasoning you all are getting at here. I think its awesome that PVPers can level and gear through PVP better here then one can in WoW (1-79).</p></blockquote><p>The answer is simple.  We like the PVE but we like the danger of moving from point A to point B.  Questing and knowing that at any second your gonna get attacked by 1-50 people is fun.  Hunting for other people is fun.  Rolling up against a toon your class/toon has a 50/50 shot at walking away from is fun.  Running up against a class/toon or grp you little to no chance of defeating is not as fun but still a good time.  Calling in friends to hunt them down is fun.   Standing in the middle of an epic pvp battle with a solid grp is stellar fun.  We don't hate PVE we just like to kill each other when we are not raiding/instancing/ or questing or god forbid tradeskilling.  PVP is unpredictable, wild, and fun.</p><p>This xpac though our time has seriously been split between aquiring two completely different sets of gear and this has been a huge downer.   If someone spends 12 hours per week raiding they should be rewarded.  If someone spends 12+ hours per week PVPing they should likewise be rewarded.  I personally prefered the RoK/TSO sets and jewelry.  You did not have to divide your time and effort.  You could pvp, raid, run instnaces, you could do what you wanted and all the gear worked to some level of efficiency.  Some of the pvp jewelry was of course better for pvp and it worked in PVE. </p><p>Who did not change out a PVP item for the TSO set item?  The raid stuff was always superior in PVE stats.  One of the main problems now is the efficiancy, or lack thereof, of certain armors and the whole toughness concept.  Gear should not be used to fix class balancing issues as it ahs done nothing but exacerbate the OP classes to new heights of OPness.</p>