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Ulrazaj
08-13-2010, 05:47 AM
<p>My experience thus far with pvp in EQ2 has only been with 30-30 BGs, there are a few things I don't understand and could use an explanation for.  This is from a wizard point of view, I've gotten most my master spells and mastercrafted armor with a couple peices of the fabled pvp armor.</p><p>Firstly, there are toons in these BGs that take a few minutes to kill with sometimes 10 opponents attacking them, I often dump my entire power bar into 1 person from a distance, and they might get down to 90% health if I'm lucky.  When I examine my spells, with the pvp checkbox checked, they may say for example, deals 622-1137 heat damage, but with my Freehand Sorcery which adds 18% damage, and Catalyst which adds 25% crit multiplier, I am lucky if it crits for 250, and this is after I've removed 583 elemental resist with Ice Spears.  I understand that Toughness and Resistances play a role in how much damage is done, but 4th of the damage reported in the examine box on a crit!?  This is not even enough to chew through the ward that the pvp gear gives them, and its my hardest hitting spell with all my procs up.  I feel like I'm doing something terribly wrong?</p><p>The next thing I think I need explained, is if my spells are going to hit for 1/4th what they are apparantly supposed to, do heals also do 1/4th the healing?  If not, why?  This seems to make toons live for ever, I often see toons running around with no power, being hit by multiple people, and they still wont die.  If a 5v1 battle can last for minutes....if there were a 6v6 battle, where everyone had these maxed AA and PVP gear...I imagine no one would ever die? EVER?</p><p>Next up is the Gears of Klak'Anon, why are the teams so imbalanced at times?  I've been on a team with no healers, whereas the other team has 2!  This hardly seems fair to me, especially if the healers has someone that takes barely any damage to heal.  Why is this?</p><p>Now on to the gear itself, all classes use all the same jewelery.  Wearing every single available pvp jewelery item, I would receive a total of 20 intellect from them, my primary stat.  However, a Fighter receives 70 strength, a Priest receives 40 wisdom, and a Scout receives 80 agility.  This seems extremely slanted towards fighters and scouts, and us poor mages get no help at all.  Also, every single peice of pvp gear adds to resistances, which hurts casters of all kinds, however not every peices adds defense versus the melee/ranger classes, another skew I don't understand.  Is there a reason for this sort of itemization on the pvp jewelery?</p>

BlueEternal
08-13-2010, 05:49 AM
<p>Welcome to the age of toughness. Enjoy your stay.</p>

convict
08-13-2010, 11:18 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Welcome to the age of toughness. Enjoy your stay.</p></blockquote><p>This</p>

max.power
08-13-2010, 11:29 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Welcome to the age of toughness. Enjoy your stay.</p></blockquote><p>Toughness alone isn't the issue. Stop blaming Toughness for the current insane survivablity of some classes, Olihin already tried to explain it but some people seem not be able to read - or don't want to, I don't know.</p>

Wytie
08-13-2010, 11:48 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Welcome to the age of toughness. Enjoy your stay.</p></blockquote><p>Toughness alone isn't the issue. Stop blaming Toughness for the current insane survivablity of some classes, Olihin already tried to explain it but some people seem not be able to read - or don't want to, I don't know.</p></blockquote><p>Dont be foolish. Toughness is exactly the issue and its also the common factor. No one was this stupid hard to kill before toughness not even healers.</p><p>Toughness reduces damage you take, its is a one sided coin that will never be balenced.</p><p>Toughness should have worked diffently for each class depending on their roll in pvp.</p><p>I dont have to read to know this is true because I am out almost every day and have been sicne toughness was introduced so I am saying this first hand.</p>

Bosconi
08-13-2010, 11:48 AM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The ward proc gear and reflect bonuses need to go.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Level locking was fun for me back in the day because there weren't these insane obstacles to conquer like obscene survivability.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">What used to be the craze was finding as much ability modifier pieces as possible.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Now, it's a cookie cutter specification.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Toughness, I don't think, is that substantial at all in the lower tiers.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The problem was that Mastercrafted was SIGNIFICANTLY revamped, and all gear from 10-79, was not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">While Game Update #58 promises to revise gear from LVLs 1-20 in October, <span style="color: #ff0000;">we can only hope that such a trend continues with great expedition and a finer attention to detail than that seen by algorithms</span>.</span></p><p><img src="http://eq2wire.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/eq2x_gameupdate58.jpg" width="1024" height="777" /></p>

Crismorn
08-13-2010, 02:40 PM
<p>Toughness is definetly the issue.</p><p>It created a false sense of competition that others will notice after playing long enough.</p>

EndevorX
08-13-2010, 03:12 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Really, and do you know how much damage and critical mitigation lowbies experience? lol @ that.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Pavol, a LVL 35 Ranger, has 38 toughness (6/7 PvP pieces). LOL!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">That's 3.8% damage mitigation and approximately 6% critical mitigation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ward proc gear and reflect is insane for everyone at low tiers.</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff9900;"><em> - E D I T - </em></span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Erm. Well, was just talking to Khaiyle, a LVL 47 Shadowknight, and he claims to have 95 toughness, with 25.7% damage mitigation and 6.7% critical mitigation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">This seems odd and out of place, because as a highbie, my 90 templar has 443 toughness and 29.5% damage mitigation, 100.4% critical mitigation (three +10% piece bonuses, four +5% blue adorns).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">On my 90 paladin, I have 493 toughness, 32.9% damage mitigation, 102.5% critical mitigation (two +5% blue adorns).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Either Khaiyle is misreading his statistics, or something is drastically wrong for the damage mitigation portion given to lowbie toughness.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">According to official models, 15 points of toughness equates to 1% damage mitigation, and he'd have to have 385.5 toughness to have the 25.7% damage mitigation he claims.</span></p>

Taldier
08-13-2010, 03:38 PM
<p>Toughness is definitely not the lone issue, but it is a fair amount of the damage reduction seen at end game.  I also think flat damage reduction aa's increased fairly drastically, as I dont believe they worked for the full value before sf.  Add in the increasing prevalance of regenerating wards and large heal procs, way more than we had last xpac, and you get the full measure of the problem.</p><p>SOEs vision for the future: turn every class into an sk via toughness and heal procs so that no one can ever kill anyone else ever again and people stop %&$*ing about sk's.</p>

Taldier
08-13-2010, 03:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><span style="color: #ff9900;"><em> - E D I T - </em></span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Erm. Well, was just talking to Khaiyle, a LVL 47 Shadowknight, and he claims to have 95 toughness, with 25.7% damage mitigation and 6.7% critical mitigation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">This seems odd and out of place, because as a highbie, my 90 templar has 443 toughness and 29.5% damage mitigation, 100.4% critical mitigation (three +10% piece bonuses, four +5% blue adorns).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">On my 90 paladin, I have 493 toughness, 32.9% damage mitigation, 102.5% critical mitigation (two +5% blue adorns).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Either Khaiyle is misreading his statistics, or something is drastically wrong for the damage mitigation portion given to lowbie toughness.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">According to official models, 15 points of toughness equates to 1% damage mitigation, and he'd have to have 385.5 toughness to have the 25.7% damage mitigation he claims.</span></p></blockquote><p>If thats correct it probably scales based on level like some of the other raw stats.</p>

Xiotia
08-13-2010, 03:53 PM
<p><cite>Ulrazaj wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My experience thus far with pvp in EQ2 has only been with 30-30 BGs, there are a few things I don't understand and could use an explanation for.  This is from a wizard point of view, I've gotten most my master spells and mastercrafted armor with a couple peices of the fabled pvp armor.</p><p>Firstly, there are toons in these BGs that take a few minutes to kill with sometimes 10 opponents attacking them, I often dump my entire power bar into 1 person from a distance, and they might get down to 90% health if I'm lucky.  When I examine my spells, with the pvp checkbox checked, they may say for example, deals 622-1137 heat damage, but with my Freehand Sorcery which adds 18% damage, and Catalyst which adds 25% crit multiplier, I am lucky if it crits for 250, and this is after I've removed 583 elemental resist with Ice Spears.  I understand that Toughness and Resistances play a role in how much damage is done, but 4th of the damage reported in the examine box on a crit!?  This is not even enough to chew through the ward that the pvp gear gives them, and its my hardest hitting spell with all my procs up.  I feel like I'm doing something terribly wrong?</p><p>The next thing I think I need explained, is if my spells are going to hit for 1/4th what they are apparantly supposed to, do heals also do 1/4th the healing?  If not, why?  This seems to make toons live for ever, I often see toons running around with no power, being hit by multiple people, and they still wont die.  If a 5v1 battle can last for minutes....if there were a 6v6 battle, where everyone had these maxed AA and PVP gear...I imagine no one would ever die? EVER?</p><p>Next up is the Gears of Klak'Anon, why are the teams so imbalanced at times?  I've been on a team with no healers, whereas the other team has 2!  This hardly seems fair to me, especially if the healers has someone that takes barely any damage to heal.  Why is this?</p><p>Now on to the gear itself, all classes use all the same jewelery.  Wearing every single available pvp jewelery item, I would receive a total of 20 intellect from them, my primary stat.  However, a Fighter receives 70 strength, a Priest receives 40 wisdom, and a Scout receives 80 agility.  This seems extremely slanted towards fighters and scouts, and us poor mages get no help at all.  Also, every single peice of pvp gear adds to resistances, which hurts casters of all kinds, however not every peices adds defense versus the melee/ranger classes, another skew I don't understand.  Is there a reason for this sort of itemization on the pvp jewelery?</p></blockquote><p>Toughness is only a fraction of the problem. If ten people are pounding on one person and it takes that long to bring him down (especially for T4 BGs) then look around, he/she is probably getting warded/healed from somewhere. Also the jewelry is definitely an advantage to scouts and tanks. My wife plays a healer and will not get the jewelry because it won't assist her wisdom. Hopefully they will fix this somehow, by either giving more class specific jewelry options. Sometimes I appear to not be dying when I'm out of power, but that is because my wife put some wards on me before I ran into battle. I've burnt down a fully equipped tank with just me and the healer. </p><p>As far as toughness goes, I can take it or leave it. Right now everyone has it so who cares. If they take it away, no one will have it and who cares. Toughness makes it more difficult to kill someone, but at the same time it doesn't reduce healing received. So the problem I see is someone with less health is harder to kill but still easy to heal, making them a high dps, hard to kill toon. For instance wizards; however, I still find it more difficult to damage tanks. Toughness makes the battles longer; I'm not sure why people have a problem with this, but they do. So far, it has only been pvpers complaining about the toughness (that I've seen), but I haven't seen why. I would like to hear a different analysis of the problem than mine. </p>

EndevorX
08-13-2010, 04:11 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ulrazaj wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My experience thus far with pvp in EQ2 has only been with 30-30 BGs, there are a few things I don't understand and could use an explanation for.  This is from a wizard point of view, I've gotten most my master spells and mastercrafted armor with a couple peices of the fabled pvp armor.</p><p>Firstly, there are toons in these BGs that take a few minutes to kill with sometimes 10 opponents attacking them, I often dump my entire power bar into 1 person from a distance, and they might get down to 90% health if I'm lucky.  When I examine my spells, with the pvp checkbox checked, they may say for example, deals 622-1137 heat damage, but with my Freehand Sorcery which adds 18% damage, and Catalyst which adds 25% crit multiplier, I am lucky if it crits for 250, and this is after I've removed 583 elemental resist with Ice Spears.  I understand that Toughness and Resistances play a role in how much damage is done, but 4th of the damage reported in the examine box on a crit!?  This is not even enough to chew through the ward that the pvp gear gives them, and its my hardest hitting spell with all my procs up.  I feel like I'm doing something terribly wrong?</p><p>The next thing I think I need explained, is if my spells are going to hit for 1/4th what they are apparantly supposed to, do heals also do 1/4th the healing?  If not, why?  This seems to make toons live for ever, I often see toons running around with no power, being hit by multiple people, and they still wont die.  If a 5v1 battle can last for minutes....if there were a 6v6 battle, where everyone had these maxed AA and PVP gear...I imagine no one would ever die? EVER?</p><p>Next up is the Gears of Klak'Anon, why are the teams so imbalanced at times?  I've been on a team with no healers, whereas the other team has 2!  This hardly seems fair to me, especially if the healers has someone that takes barely any damage to heal.  Why is this?</p><p>Now on to the gear itself, all classes use all the same jewelery.  Wearing every single available pvp jewelery item, I would receive a total of 20 intellect from them, my primary stat.  However, a Fighter receives 70 strength, a Priest receives 40 wisdom, and a Scout receives 80 agility.  This seems extremely slanted towards fighters and scouts, and us poor mages get no help at all.  Also, every single peice of pvp gear adds to resistances, which hurts casters of all kinds, however not every peices adds defense versus the melee/ranger classes, another skew I don't understand.  Is there a reason for this sort of itemization on the pvp jewelery?</p></blockquote><p>Toughness is only a fraction of the problem. If ten people are pounding on one person and it takes that long to bring him down (especially for T4 BGs) then look around,<span style="color: #ff00ff;"> he/she is probably getting warded/healed from somewhere</span>. Also the jewelry is definitely an advantage to scouts and tanks. My wife plays a healer and will not get the jewelry because it won't assist her wisdom. Hopefully they will fix this somehow, by either giving more class specific jewelry options. Sometimes I appear to not be dying when I'm out of power, but that is because my wife put some wards on me before I ran into battle. I've burnt down a fully equipped tank with just me and the healer. </p><p>As far as toughness goes, I can take it or leave it. Right now everyone has it so who cares. If they take it away, no one will have it and who cares. Toughness makes it more difficult to kill someone, but at the same time it doesn't reduce healing received. So the problem I see is someone with less health is harder to kill but still easy to heal, making them a high dps, hard to kill toon. For instance wizards; however, I still find it more difficult to damage tanks. Toughness makes the battles longer; I'm not sure why people have a problem with this, but they do. So far, it has only been pvpers complaining about the toughness (that I've seen), but I haven't seen why. I would like to hear a different analysis of the problem than mine. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">+2 to Xiotia for seeing the light! ;P</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Toughness needs to be reworked for lowbies (to drastically reduce damage mitigation conversion), on top of removing the wards/reflect to lowbie PvP gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Give lowbie accessories other bonuses like ability mod, crit, just not insane defensive ones.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'm just not sure why the disparity in toughness/damage mitigation would be so great when comparing Pavol the 35 ranger (mentioned above) and Khaiyle the 47 shadowknight.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Because if it scaled, then Pavol's damage mitigation should've been a lot higher. It doesn't seem to make sense...</span></p><p><img src="http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5863/eq2.png" /></p>

Crismorn
08-13-2010, 04:16 PM
<p>Toughness starts becoming an issue in the 80-89 then gets even worse in the 90's.</p><p>It created a false sense of competition.</p>

Sprin
08-13-2010, 04:30 PM
<p>OM FG, dont make me dig up all the posts probably EVERY one of you, who are complaining about toughness, posted a year ago...</p><p>"BLAH BLAH BLAH  PVP DAMAGE IS TOO HIGH DAMAGE PROCS ARE SO OP, SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE"</p><p>"PVP FIGHTS ARE OVER IN 3 SECONDS, SCOUT DAMAGE IS WAY OUT OF CONTROL BLAH BLAH BLAH"</p><p>"ONLY HEALERS CAN SURVIVE FIGHTS, WE NEED SOMETHING FOR THE REST OF THE CLASSES"</p><p>ST FU TBH.... you wanted longer PVP fights and you got them, now you want them shorter again... no WONDER nothing ever gets done about PVP on this game, you guys are Bi-polar.... can never be pleased and will never stop complaining about things that you asked to be done, were done, and not done to your 100% satisfaction... SURPRISE, there are 1000's of people and they cant fix something to every single person's personal taste...</p>

EndevorX
08-13-2010, 04:34 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">That'd be interesting, trying to find posts of me ever saying anything like that, even on my original Kurindor_Mythecnea account.</span></p>

Ralpmet
08-13-2010, 05:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">That'd be interesting, trying to find posts of me ever saying anything like that, even on my original Kurindor_Mythecnea account.</span></p></blockquote><p>He's talking about the people complaining about toughness, not the ones talking about what we're talking about.</p><p>Toughness isn't the issue in pvp.</p><p>t4:</p><p>My level 39 sk has a 187 regeneratining ward from aa's, and a 200 ward from the pvp set.</p><p>THAT'S A BASE OF 20 HPS, WITHOUT ME DOING ANYTHING AT ALL ON THE TOON</p><p>Then you couple in the maxed PvP resists/mit, and people aren't hitting me for damage, even if toughness was taken away this would not change. The wards/heals are the issue here, stop playing pin the tail on the donkey and pay attention to what's going on around you. Read a fricken combat log once in awhile, on my coercer I fought a zerk that had more HPS than my 84 inq has ever had, and it was from proc gear (he was oop, so he wasn't using any of that crazy stuff that has been broken on pvp since they "fixed it" in pvp.), that's just silly.</p>

Thinwizzy
08-13-2010, 05:10 PM
<p>That ward gear has been around for much longer than toughness, and it has not been an issue.  Only after they added toughness in did that 200 ward start to look amazingly overpowered. </p>

Ralpmet
08-13-2010, 05:13 PM
<p>Maybe you've forgotten, but there were a large number of level 15 twinks just to use that ward, and it was impossible to kill them on any 14 or lower toon due to the 10hps it gave then.</p><p><strong>It hasn't changed at all, assuming it was Ok back then doesn't mean it was ok back then, it's been an issue forever. </strong></p><p>Blaming the new mechanics for old issues isn't how you solve problems, everyone who actually takes a minute to read through all the EXTRA SURVIVABILITY you're given beyond toughness will realize that there's simply too much of it. Toughness makes the fight last more then 5 seconds, the WARDS/PROCS make the fight last minutes.</p>

Wytie
08-13-2010, 05:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OM FG, dont make me dig up all the posts probably EVERY one of you, who are complaining about toughness, posted a year ago...</p><p>"BLAH BLAH BLAH  PVP DAMAGE IS TOO HIGH DAMAGE PROCS ARE SO OP, SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE"</p><p>"PVP FIGHTS ARE OVER IN 3 SECONDS, SCOUT DAMAGE IS WAY OUT OF CONTROL BLAH BLAH BLAH"</p><p>"ONLY HEALERS CAN SURVIVE FIGHTS, WE NEED SOMETHING FOR THE REST OF THE CLASSES"</p><p>ST FU TBH.... you wanted longer PVP fights and you got them, now you want them shorter again... no WONDER nothing ever gets done about PVP on this game, you guys are Bi-polar.... can never be pleased and will never stop complaining about things that you asked to be done, were done, and not done to your 100% satisfaction... SURPRISE, there are 1000's of people and they cant fix something to every single person's personal taste...</p></blockquote><p>Yep we sure did you are correct but then Sony put its "overdo crap x100" touch on it and it of course swung a full 180 to the point that its now worse than the 3 sec fights of the old days.</p><p>You would have to be blind to current pvp, not to understand that they over did it and did it the wrong way.</p><p>Its obvious that no class is equal in this game, so why in the world they thought making toughness the same for all classes would work.</p><p>IDK if they have to change pvp a billion times until they get it right, its F'n wrong until they do.</p>

EndevorX
08-13-2010, 05:19 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Well I am complaining about toughness for lowbies, and I believe it should likely be adjusted for highbies.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Perhaps damage mitigation components cut in half, so 45 points of toughness = 1% damage mitigation, but 15 points of toughness would still equate to 1.5% critical mitigation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">A T5 player should NOT have 25.7% damage mitigation according to official toughness function.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">That looks like a bug that needs to be fixed.</span></p>

Crismorn
08-13-2010, 05:33 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">That'd be interesting, trying to find posts of me ever saying anything like that, even on my original Kurindor_Mythecnea account.</span></p></blockquote><p>He's talking about the people complaining about toughness, not the ones talking about what we're talking about.</p><p>Toughness isn't the issue in pvp.</p><p>t4:</p><p>My level 39 sk has a 187 regeneratining ward from aa's, and a 200 ward from the pvp set.</p><p>THAT'S A BASE OF 20 HPS, WITHOUT ME DOING ANYTHING AT ALL ON THE TOON</p><p>Then you couple in the maxed PvP resists/mit, and people aren't hitting me for damage, even if toughness was taken away this would not change. The wards/heals are the issue here, stop playing pin the tail on the donkey and pay attention to what's going on around you. Read a fricken combat log once in awhile, on my coercer I fought a zerk that had more HPS than my 84 inq has ever had, and it was from proc gear (he was oop, so he wasn't using any of that crazy stuff that has been broken on pvp since they "fixed it" in pvp.), that's just silly.</p></blockquote><p><span ><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></span></p><p>Toughness starts becoming an issue in the 80-89 then gets even worse in the 90's.</p><p>It created a false sense of competition.</p>

Ralpmet
08-13-2010, 06:08 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">That'd be interesting, trying to find posts of me ever saying anything like that, even on my original Kurindor_Mythecnea account.</span></p></blockquote><p>He's talking about the people complaining about toughness, not the ones talking about what we're talking about.</p><p>Toughness isn't the issue in pvp.</p><p>t4:</p><p>My level 39 sk has a 187 regeneratining ward from aa's, and a 200 ward from the pvp set.</p><p>THAT'S A BASE OF 20 HPS, WITHOUT ME DOING ANYTHING AT ALL ON THE TOON</p><p>Then you couple in the maxed PvP resists/mit, and people aren't hitting me for damage, even if toughness was taken away this would not change. The wards/heals are the issue here, stop playing pin the tail on the donkey and pay attention to what's going on around you. Read a fricken combat log once in awhile, on my coercer I fought a zerk that had more HPS than my 84 inq has ever had, and it was from proc gear (he was oop, so he wasn't using any of that crazy stuff that has been broken on pvp since they "fixed it" in pvp.), that's just silly.</p></blockquote><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></span></p><p>Toughness starts becoming an issue in the 80-89 then gets even worse in the 90's.</p><p>It created a false sense of competition.</p></blockquote><p>The main issue at level 90 are the procs.</p><p>Feral Lifetap (really? does this need to be on 7 different slots?)</p><p>Stonewill (again, really? does this need to be on as many slots?)</p><p>The healer wards (again, REALLY?! does this need to be on so many slots?)</p><p>Boils down to people being so well warded/healed that a majority of players don't even really need heals in pvp anymore, they carry their own. The clothies are the only classes that gear REALLY REALLY SCREWED in this regard because well, let's be honest, they don't have as many stat-oriented stonewill/feral lifetap as the other classes.</p><p>#1 fix to pvp survivability: Take away the amount of ward/heal procs, replace them with beneficial blue stats (pvp potency is useless, please remove it. This kind of ties into here, just make plain old fashion good blue stats on them.)</p><p>#2 fix to pvp survivability: Scale regenerating wards in a way that makes them hard to break initially, but easier to keep breaking. There is no reason that wards can't be double and their regeneration cut in half, in a 1 minute fight the ward remains the same, but in a 2 minute fight the higher ward remains broken for the rest of the fight which would really cut back on long-term fights with no clear-cut winner.</p><p>#3 fix to pvp survivability: scale toughness more effectively, less damage reduction more crit mit. DO NOT REMOVE TOUGHNESS, IT IS NOW A CRUTCH FOR MANY CLASSES. </p><p>If you can't see that the sheer number of heal/ward procs is incredibly larger this expac than the last one I'm going to assume you didn't research your gear to fit the best pieces in the best places, and am going to also assume you're a [Removed for Content] if that's the case.</p>

EndevorX
08-13-2010, 06:19 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">That'd be interesting, trying to find posts of me ever saying anything like that, even on my original Kurindor_Mythecnea account.</span></p></blockquote><p>He's talking about the people complaining about toughness, not the ones talking about what we're talking about.</p><p>Toughness isn't the issue in pvp.</p><p>t4:</p><p>My level 39 sk has a 187 regeneratining ward from aa's, and a 200 ward from the pvp set.</p><p>THAT'S A BASE OF 20 HPS, WITHOUT ME DOING ANYTHING AT ALL ON THE TOON</p><p>Then you couple in the maxed PvP resists/mit, and people aren't hitting me for damage, even if toughness was taken away this would not change. The wards/heals are the issue here, stop playing pin the tail on the donkey and pay attention to what's going on around you. Read a fricken combat log once in awhile, on my coercer I fought a zerk that had more HPS than my 84 inq has ever had, and it was from proc gear (he was oop, so he wasn't using any of that crazy stuff that has been broken on pvp since they "fixed it" in pvp.), that's just silly.</p></blockquote><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></span></p><p>Toughness starts becoming an issue in the 80-89 then gets even worse in the 90's.</p><p>It created a false sense of competition.</p></blockquote><p>The main issue at level 90 are the procs.</p><p>Feral Lifetap (really? does this need to be on 7 different slots?)</p><p>Stonewill (again, really? does this need to be on as many slots?)</p><p>The healer wards (again, REALLY?! does this need to be on so many slots?)</p><p>Boils down to people being so well warded/healed that a majority of players don't even really need heals in pvp anymore, they carry their own. The clothies are the only classes that gear REALLY REALLY SCREWED in this regard because well, let's be honest, they don't have as many stat-oriented stonewill/feral lifetap as the other classes.</p><p>#1 fix to pvp survivability: Take away the amount of ward/heal procs, replace them with beneficial blue stats (pvp potency is useless, please remove it. This kind of ties into here, just make plain old fashion good blue stats on them.)</p><p>#2 fix to pvp survivability: Scale regenerating wards in a way that makes them hard to break initially, but easier to keep breaking. There is no reason that wards can't be double and their regeneration cut in half, in a 1 minute fight the ward remains the same, but in a 2 minute fight the higher ward remains broken for the rest of the fight which would really cut back on long-term fights with no clear-cut winner.</p><p>#3 fix to pvp survivability: scale toughness more effectively, <span style="color: #ff0000;">less damage reduction</span> more crit mit. DO NOT REMOVE TOUGHNESS, IT IS NOW A CRUTCH FOR MANY CLASSES. </p><p>If you can't see that the sheer number of heal/ward procs is incredibly larger this expac than the last one I'm going to assume you didn't research your gear to fit the best pieces in the best places, and am going to also assume you're a [Removed for Content] if that's the case.</p></blockquote><p><span ><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">TBH man, Stonewill values are nerfed SO excruciatingly bad in PvP, it's kinda ridiculous.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The only thing that makes a top tier group menacing is whether the priests are equipped with quality and basic skill or not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If heals are the weak link in an opposing group, good DPS can cut through mostly everyone else, aside from Berserkers, effectively.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">While damage gets terribly reduced so much, heals are pumping away at near full throttle.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'd start with reducing the damage mitigation component of toughness (45 toughness would equal 1% damage mit, instead of 15 toughness), and I'd NOT increase critical mitigation, because then that just defeats the purpose.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If that wasn't enough, I'd completely remove damage mitigation, but leave toughness separate from PvE crit mit.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Should survivability still be crazy at that point, I'd nerf heals in PvP by 15% or so.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Just halving the damage mitigation component to toughness might be enough, but testing must be thorough.</span></p></span></p>

Ralpmet
08-13-2010, 06:25 PM
<p>Increasing the crit mit makes up for the lack of toughness. Crit mit =/= toughness.</p><p>Having a higher crit mit means you'll simply ignore more crit damage, but it will still hit a minimum for damage dealt.</p><p>Having a higher toughness means you'll simply ignore a % of the damage, there is no maximum reduction (in terms of numbers, if someone hits you for 900k you're still ignoring 60% of it.)</p><p>Lowering toughness and increasing crit mit cuts out the crit bonus, but people still do more damage than they do now. With a lower crit bonus you're far less likely to 1 shot someone.</p>

EndevorX
08-13-2010, 06:29 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Increasing the crit mit makes up for the lack of toughness. Crit mit =/= toughness.</p><p>Having a higher crit mit means you'll simply ignore more crit damage, but it will still hit a minimum for damage dealt.</p><p>Having a higher toughness means you'll simply ignore a % of the damage, there is no maximum reduction (in terms of numbers, if someone hits you for 900k you're still ignoring 60% of it.)</p><p>Lowering toughness and increasing crit mit cuts out the crit bonus, but people still do more damage than they do now. With a lower crit bonus you're far less likely to 1 shot someone.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'm aware of the difference brah, but crit mit is already quite substantial, and I truly don't think it needs to elevate when crit bonus is supposed to be the staple of this expansion, especially with all of these profuse complaints about player survivability.</span></p>

Ralpmet
08-13-2010, 06:38 PM
<p>What I'm saying is by lowering toughness and increasing crit mit you're going to end up with a minimum damage dealt to people, which is what everyone wants.</p><p>You don't want sorcerers, predators, and any other class that has many aa into "crit bonus" to run the show after you've lowered the % damage reduction on toughness.</p><p>And the crit mit isn't that substantial, PvP Crit Mit is actually lower now than it was in TSO. As it stands currently, my coercer with 413 toughness has 56.7% pvp crit mit, however I very fondly remember in TSO wanting to get the raid-pvp armor that once you completed the set gave you 100% pvp crit mit, and it could even be pushed a tid-bit higher by jewelry and procs off gear.</p>

EndevorX
08-13-2010, 06:54 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Well Enchanters are uber squisheh and your Coercer should probably have the extra 35% from 7 crit mit adorns, which would put you at 91.7%.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">DPS really won't run the show from halving toughness' damage mit values...s'alla 'bout dem taunts nn heals!</span></p>

Putyo
08-13-2010, 07:03 PM
<p>if you think ANYTHING but the toughness is the problem here you have no idea what you are talking about.</p><p>Wards/procs/lifetaps have been around for 2 expansions, they add survivability but have almost zero impact in the long run. Toughness is allowing people to live forever, you get the best healer with all ward gear with no toughness he is going to melt 100x faster then someone in a full set of that crap.</p>

EndevorX
08-13-2010, 07:08 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>if you think ANYTHING but the toughness is the problem here you have no idea what you are talking about.</p><p>Wards/procs/lifetaps have been around for 2 expansions, they add survivability but have almost zero impact in the long run. Toughness is allowing people to live forever, you get the best healer with all ward gear with no toughness he is going to melt 100x faster then someone in a full set of that crap.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Dude, the OP speaks of lowbies, who also, mostly, have very low damage mitigation and critical mitigation values.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ward proc/reflect gear wasn't around for all of TSO, and for lowbies, it's definitely out of place and excessive considering their DPS output, how much HP these wards cover, and then comparing that to the ward/DPS values for top tier.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;"><strong><em>- E D I T -</em></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">I just spoke with a LVL 35 Assassin (Jiqo) in full PvP armor, and he has 50 toughness, 20% damage mitigation, and 12.9% critical mitigation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">I suppose I'd bet that Pavol then mistook some other numbers for damage mitigation values, but for lowbies, toughness needs to remain universal in its conversion rates for damage and critical mitigation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">As it is, it's extremely, extremely excessive.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">(P.S. To YasikoSetsuna/Penello...thou shalt beith but nerfed!)</span></p>

YasikoSetsu
08-14-2010, 12:01 PM
<p>Lemme show ya how the 'real' lowbie twinks roll. =P</p><p>28% damage reduction, 13% crit reduction. That's on a 35 assassin. Combined with having 4.3k HP, something around 50% mitigation, a 200 ward, and 75% in every resist, let's just say I don't go down too easily.</p><p><img src="http://i38.tinypic.com/2l6zqc.jpg" /></p>

Bosconi
08-14-2010, 07:56 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Meant to post this elsewhere...</span></p>

Ralpmet
08-14-2010, 08:43 PM
<p>Oh, we're showing off our twink t4 chars now?</p><p>This is offensive stance on my sk;</p><p>41.3% avoidance</p><p>75% pvp mit (when 30, 66% @39)</p><p>ELEMENTAL: 75% pvp (39 or 30)</p><p>NOX: 65% pvp 39, 75% 30</p><p>ARCANE: 75% pvp (39 or 30)</p><p>WARDS:</p><p>Aura of leadership: 192, 50 every 5 seconds</p><p>PVP Ward: 200, 50 every 5 seconds.</p><p>The reflect bonus, don't know if that applies to wards or not but it sure helps a ton.</p><p><img src="http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/208/eq2000170.jpg" /></p><p>I mean, obviously in defensive stance i'm capped in mit, and my avoidance sits at 61% instead, so it takes WAY too many people to kill me. I haven't even bothered getting the status for the PvP mount yet with 20 toughness because I have yet to find someone who hits me for more then 300 at a time. And sitting at 4.5k in offensive, or 5.2k in defensive, that's not much of my health. Especially when you consider that any of the spells I cast heal me for ~100.</p><p>Too much broken stuff is too much broken stuff, that's not even a fun toon to play.</p><p>For the lols of an edit: While I was posting this a group of 3 people were hitting me, and I uploaded the screenshot and typed all of that out and I'm still in green. Dubya t eff mate, SCALE STUFF BACCCCCCCCCCCCK!</p>

Bosconi
08-14-2010, 08:52 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dubya t eff mate, SCALE STUFF BACCCCCCCCCCCCK!</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">QFE. Toughness conversion should be universal and not scale.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ward/reflect procs are too much for all lowbies to have with their DPS already pretty low.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ability mod, crit, procs with direct damage or DoTs or pets, small portions of crit or DA or melee/spell skills, something DIFFERENT than increasing survivability.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I never remember anyone wanting survivability to go up...</span></p>

Tharis
08-16-2010, 02:50 AM
<p><cite>Ulrazaj wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My experience thus far with pvp in EQ2 has only been with 30-30 BGs, there are a few things I don't understand and could use an explanation for.  This is from a wizard point of view, I've gotten most my master spells and mastercrafted armor with a couple peices of the fabled pvp armor.</p><p>Firstly, there are toons in these BGs that take a few minutes to kill with sometimes 10 opponents attacking them, I often dump my entire power bar into 1 person from a distance, and they might get down to 90% health if I'm lucky.  When I examine my spells, with the pvp checkbox checked, they may say for example, deals 622-1137 heat damage, but with my Freehand Sorcery which adds 18% damage, and Catalyst which adds 25% crit multiplier, I am lucky if it crits for 250, and this is after I've removed 583 elemental resist with Ice Spears.  I understand that Toughness and Resistances play a role in how much damage is done, but 4th of the damage reported in the examine box on a crit!?  This is not even enough to chew through the ward that the pvp gear gives them, and its my hardest hitting spell with all my procs up.  I feel like I'm doing something terribly wrong?</p><p>The next thing I think I need explained, is if my spells are going to hit for 1/4th what they are apparantly supposed to, do heals also do 1/4th the healing?  If not, why?  This seems to make toons live for ever, I often see toons running around with no power, being hit by multiple people, and they still wont die.  If a 5v1 battle can last for minutes....if there were a 6v6 battle, where everyone had these maxed AA and PVP gear...I imagine no one would ever die? EVER?</p><p>Next up is the Gears of Klak'Anon, why are the teams so imbalanced at times?  I've been on a team with no healers, whereas the other team has 2!  This hardly seems fair to me, especially if the healers has someone that takes barely any damage to heal.  Why is this?</p><p>Now on to the gear itself, all classes use all the same jewelery.  Wearing every single available pvp jewelery item, I would receive a total of 20 intellect from them, my primary stat.  However, a Fighter receives 70 strength, a Priest receives 40 wisdom, and a Scout receives 80 agility.  This seems extremely slanted towards fighters and scouts, and us poor mages get no help at all.  Also, every single peice of pvp gear adds to resistances, which hurts casters of all kinds, however not every peices adds defense versus the melee/ranger classes, another skew I don't understand.  Is there a reason for this sort of itemization on the pvp jewelery?</p></blockquote><p>Ulrazaj, Im gonna let you in on a little known/admited Secret. Sony Online Entertainment hates mages. thats the long and short of it. On top of hating mages Wizards rank as #1 on Sony's Hate list (which they only recently achieved this last expansion, because it used to be #1 Conj #2 Necro #3 Wizard). And this is coming from a 5 year Vet lvl 90 Wizard.</p><p>When Battle Grounds were brought to EQ2 if you had played a wizard or a warlock for about the first 3-5 weeks (can't remember how long it was) you would have owned everyone, regardless of how much toughness they had. Wizards and Warlocks were almost unstoppable. Then The scouts and tanks and healers all started complaining that Rift would kill all of them in one hit, which they were right to do. Then came the nerf bat. and because SOE already hates mages... well it came a lot harder then it should have.</p><p>So here is the break down of what you are going to deal with as a wizard in PVP.</p><p>start with an example, simple enough, a spell that does 1000 damage (no range for simplicity).</p><p>First you have your initial damage reduction which sits (depending on the spell) at about 15-20% (this happens to everyones spells/combat arts when engaging pvp so no big deal)</p><p>Now you have 850 Damage (not bad at level 30)</p><p>Second you have your Mitigation vs magical (Elemental, Noxious, Arcane) damage. This is actually where you loose most of the damage you would have done to the other player. This will average around 60-65% (this is modified to the level 30 range, its far worse at max level and is usually worse with healers) Damage Reduction</p><p>now you sit at 340 (Im using the lower end numbers here to try and show how inane this system is for magical damage)</p><p>Then you have Toughness which at your level if you are dealing with just your average player who wants to goof off in BGs youll probably not have to worry too much about them. but most people are twinks at that level so you are gonna see a further reduction in Damage of about 20% or so. so you are left with.</p><p>170 damage out of 1000. What people also arent taking into consideration is that that spell cost you 3 seconds of cast time... the same amount of time it takes for a scout/tank to have hit you 4+ times. As well as the fact that you reduce a lot less Physical damage then they do Magical, on the average of about 10% or so. So in essence a scout will hit you faster, harder, and reduce more of your damage to them then you will of theirs to you AND they have more HP on average then you. about the only thing you have in your favor is Root... which breaks like you didnt even cast it and resists more often then that.</p><p>So what Im saying is that because Sony Loves mages (wizards especially) so much you just picked the wrong class to play PVP BGs with. If you want to Raid in PVE, Wizards are great and can be a lot of fun. but for PVP you will have a lot to overcome.</p><p>Despite my words I still PVP on Nagafen with a wizard. Call me a Glutton for punishment but I dont care I love wizards so sony can let their scouts and tanks take all the glory.</p>

EndevorX
08-27-2010, 01:04 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Lowbie PvP is a substantial portion of PvP content for a large array of the populace, and the complications with inordane, excessive survivability ought be addressed in ways mentioned in this thread.</span></p>

Waking
08-27-2010, 01:54 PM
<p><strong>Wards don't scale right. </strong>PvP wards for same amount at level 15 as level 65.</p><p><strong>AA's don't scale right.</strong> Battlehardening + heal proc AA's can make it so that you heal a fighter by attacking him (I designed my Berserker for this reason since I came back a few months ago, the strategy is obvious).</p><p>I don't know as much about upper tiers, but it seems some things changed.- The wards started to scale better, so they weren't as effective.- The AA's started to scale better, so they weren't effectiveHowever, in upper tiers there is a ton of gear that has some offensive or defensive 'crit', so crits made big damage skyrocket, so that people with big hits (Mages) were doing ridiculous damage and no one could use their brain to stop it... it was just too fast. So they put in TOUGHNESS.</p><p>Then you go back to the early tiers and now you have a new line of defense called TOUGHNESS. The lowbies are receiving incredible benefits of all these corrections to end game play. If you make your character considering this then you can be invincible.</p><p>I did a lot of BG's for a few weeks and I made a point to watch a Berserker named Innis do this, he would hold down 10 people by himself and tell everyone else to do the work. He was smart <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I made my Berserker (now 75) because of him.</p>

Azekah1
08-27-2010, 02:24 PM
<p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I never remember anyone wanting survivability to go up...</span></p></blockquote><p>I do.</p>

Brynhild
08-27-2010, 05:51 PM
<p>Survivability has to be WAY up or it doesn't take any skill to play. If you never have a chance to cast any of your spells or use any of your combat arts and you just die, how is that fun?   Fights should last long enough so that everyone has a chance to cast almost all their spells at least once, and skill comes into play.</p><p>IN T8 / T9:</p><p>Right now, scouts take the cake, especially assassins. Then come sorc of course.   I've been hit with a 10k ice comet with full toughness gear on 90% crit mit, etc.  You cannot tell me that toughness needs to be removed.</p><p>I've had my entire group die in seconds from 2 warlocks and we all had full BG gear on.</p><p>I've been hit with 9k assassinates with full toughness gear on.  Toughness is NOT the issue, in fact i think pvp crit mit needs to go UP, not down.  </p><p>My vote is for more pvp crit mit, but less damage reduction.  This will make the OP classes that have insane crit bonus more balanced and in line and then give the classes with less crit bonus the ability to do more damage since some of the damage reduction is removed.</p><p> Balance is the issue. Always has been.</p>

BabyAngel
08-29-2010, 10:41 AM
<p>Not hard to survive being chased by 6 or 7 people, especially if there not in combat.</p><p>I'm not using any of the pvp gear, only in MC on my 62 wizard, with legendary jewlery from lavastorm. I do have the pvp staff and one piece of jewlery</p><p>Anyway, the answer for a lot of it is resists. When they merged all the resists together (Theres no longer, cold, disease etc) the items got changed, so its not hard to get a 50 - 60% resist to a type of damage anymore. I havea  59% damage reduction on my 62 wizard to a  62 player, all the other resists are over 50%, for arcane, 69%.</p><p>Because of the merger of resists, my wizard became powerful. Nothing at all to do with toughness, I have had this character tinked for 1.5 years, and its only since the resists were merged under 3 labels that I was able to survive as much as I do now, basically all there attacks are resisting, and if they do hit are heavily damage reduced.</p><p>Toughness reduces it again, and then what your left with is the little bit of damage.</p><p> But don't get me wrong toughness is a big factor, just once the resists were merged it really wasn't so helpful in the lower tiers.</p>

Phineus
08-29-2010, 02:31 PM
<p> It might say 20 something percent but whoa does that stuff keep me up in t4. Just needs a tweak imo. The pvp fights were too short. Now they are too long. Most pvpers can break combat and run away in a 1v1 or 2v1.</p>

EQ2Player
09-01-2010, 12:04 PM
<p>Expletive wards need to explitive-ing go</p>