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threat111
08-11-2010, 07:07 PM
<p>Toughness is completely rediculous and when it was introduced in beta I told you exactly what problems we would have.  Here we are 10 months later and its a huge failure.  The problem with the toughness is the innate base damage modifier.  Its way out of balance with the ability to heal all forms of incoming damage.  Pretty much any fight reguardless of player ability is nothing more then a heal fest.</p><p>Balanced fights with even groups could easily last for hours and hours.  In TSO the fights with skilled/geared players ultimately came down to variables that no longer exist, ie charms.  Now add toughness and anyone concious enough to press 1, 2, 3, repeat can ultimately survive any amount of incoming damage.  PVP has essentially turned into a game of tic-tac-toe.  Its one stalemate after another.  Or if you do win its due to the fact that a 6v6 turned into a 20 v 6 because the fight lasted so long.</p><p>Obviously you are going to want to justify your job with your incredible useless knowlege of pvp mechanics, so I'll throw you a bone.  Keep the "idea" of toughness and just remove the innate damage reductions.  Remove it from the jewelry and the armor.  If you want to increase the survivability of players modify the pvp crit mit on these items.  Instead of 20 toughness.  Just give the item 20 pvp crit mit.  Looking forward its pretty easy to see that the direction the game is going and its going to be alot easier to simply adjust the pvp crit mit on the items.</p>

Heelo
08-11-2010, 07:30 PM
<p>i agree 100% toughness has to go.  Pvp critmit by itself is enough of a damage reduction.  I was ina  group v group fight that lasted almost an hour and it was so painfull.</p>

Brynhild
08-11-2010, 07:39 PM
<p>Toughness isn't a problem in group fights. If your group is balanced right then it's more strategic, getting the proper debuffs off, etc.  If you have a group of 4 SK's , it's not going to end against 2 healers in the other group but if you have dirge/brig/assassin/wiz/etc. you can strategically kill the other group.  One vs one though, toughness makes it last for ages.</p><p>I've been killed in less than 3 seconds even with full pvp gear and adorns on, although it has only happened a few times in the thousands of times I pvp.  They were well coordinated and debuffed/attacked at the same time together and timed it right, that's all it takes.</p><p>Personally I would rather have toughness give more crit mit, and no damage reduction.  150% crit mit even, just no reduction. That way you know if you get a hit, it hits for the intended amount, no crits of course but that's how it was in TSO and it worked well.</p>

Ralpmet
08-11-2010, 07:59 PM
<p>How about just adjusting toughness caps instead of removing it?</p><p>You know, there were reasons we moved to this system, it would probably make sense to try to adjust it instead of just scrapping it and going back to something that was clearly inferior.</p><p>We can also work on people's survivability by taking away the 50000000000000000 ward/heal procs that gear offers now and many other issues.</p><p>What you're going to see by just removing toughness is people's health's jumping all over. That assassin that you're barely hurting now, he's gonna take half his health off your one nuke, then he's gonna hit you 5 times and be at full again with tons of wards running, and it's going to be the same situation as it is now.</p>

BlueEternal
08-11-2010, 08:38 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What you're going to see by just removing toughness is people's health's jumping all over. That assassin that you're barely hurting now, he's gonna take half his health off your one nuke, then he's gonna hit you 5 times and be at full again with tons of wards running, and it's going to be the same situation as it is now.</p></blockquote><p>Guess what, atleast there will be a slight chance of people actually dying! Yay!</p>

convict
08-11-2010, 08:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness is completely rediculous and when it was introduced in beta I told you exactly what problems we would have.  Here we are 10 months later and its a huge failure.  The problem with the toughness is the innate base damage modifier.  Its way out of balance with the ability to heal all forms of incoming damage.  Pretty much any fight reguardless of player ability is nothing more then a heal fest.</p><p>Balanced fights with even groups could easily last for hours and hours.  In TSO the fights with skilled/geared players ultimately came down to variables that no longer exist, ie charms.  Now add toughness and anyone concious enough to press 1, 2, 3, repeat can ultimately survive any amount of incoming damage.  PVP has essentially turned into a game of tic-tac-toe.  Its one stalemate after another.  Or if you do win its due to the fact that a 6v6 turned into a 20 v 6 because the fight lasted so long.</p><p>Obviously you are going to want to justify your job with your incredible useless knowlege of pvp mechanics, so I'll throw you a bone.  Keep the "idea" of toughness and just remove the innate damage reductions.  Remove it from the jewelry and the armor.  If you want to increase the survivability of players modify the pvp crit mit on these items.  Instead of 20 toughness.  Just give the item 20 pvp crit mit.  Looking forward its pretty easy to see that the direction the game is going and its going to be alot easier to simply adjust the pvp crit mit on the items.</p></blockquote><p>agree</p>

threat111
08-11-2010, 09:54 PM
<p>got this as a PM and decided to share it.</p><p><span ><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></span></p><p><strong>"I think you are overlooking the idea of pvp armor.</strong>  <strong>Pvp armor ahould have effects and bonuses that are exclusive and beneficial to a pvp encounter, not a pve encounter.</strong>  By simply copy, pasting the raid set and modifing the stats you are really missing the intention of pvp armor and jewelry.</p><p><strong>Pvp armor and set bonuses should include effects that increase your survivabilty in pvp. "</strong></p><p>- Cesium</p><p>Toughness will remain as is for now.   The fact you attack rather then consider what was requested by so many "veterans" is fun to me. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p>

threat111
08-11-2010, 10:04 PM
<p>Feel free to go thru the PM's and chats we have had in the past where i clearly said copy pasting raid gear is not the way to go.  But, this is what you have done.  You say you dont want to go down this path, but you continue down that road with no change in sight.  The ROK jewelry was the first sign of "smart and intellegent" design.  The fact that its gone away from that and simply made into a copy paste design is your direction.</p><p>I attack the idea's becuase they dont work.  I knew from the beginning they would not work and I continue to see them fail.  The only reason I am choosing to get involved with this conversqtion again is the fact that server performance issues are being addressed so I will continue to pay my sub.   Since I am going to be around some more I'd like tosee the other problems fixxed.</p><p>Feel free to continue down the same old path.  But, PVP sucks now and its only got worse under your control.  I understand you want to apease the masses and make PVP fun for every one.  In turn show your boss that you can make him money.  But making every one invincible is a terrible idea.  PVP is about killing other players.  PVP is not about standing around pressing buttons for 30 mins hoping that more people from your team show up before more people from thier team show up.</p>

Heelo
08-12-2010, 01:18 AM
<p>trying to balance class survivability with a shared stat like toughness was not a good idea at all.  Across the board damage reductions on gear help some classes but make other classes unkillable.  I've said this before and I'll say it again addressing class balance issues with gear is fail imho and it seem like a road this game just keeps trying to go down time and time again.</p>

Darkor
08-12-2010, 11:57 AM
<p>Toughness has to go!</p>

Darkmantis
08-12-2010, 12:28 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>trying to balance class survivability with a shared stat like toughness was not a good idea at all.  Across the board damage reductions on gear help some classes but make other classes unkillable.  I've said this before and I'll say it again addressing class balance issues with gear is fail imho and it seem like a road this game just keeps trying to go down time and time again.</p></blockquote><p>^^^^ As a ranger i have an easier time killing <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">most</span></strong> tanks than wizzy and warlocks, something is broken here.i've been out pvp just about every night for the entire month an it is almost getting old how long these fights last against people who have absolutely no clue what they are doing in this game. </p>

Wytie
08-12-2010, 12:46 PM
<p>The dev doesnt get it, because he doesnt pvp enough in T9(if at all)to see [Removed for Content] he has done.</p><p>Remove toughness or nerf it 400% across the board, should have just stacked pvp crit mit.</p><p>Keep on Olihin you will mess the pvp in this game up like your previous one....</p>

threat111
08-12-2010, 12:52 PM
<p>Survivability means differant things for differant classes.  Like heelo all ready said global damage reduction is moronic.  Its all ready been said that balancing is done on a group vs. group level so if thats true lets look at what acually increases a classes survivability in a group.</p><p>In a group setting you would want your tank you have more ways to hold aggro.  This was addressed in ROK thru procs on pvp items and worked quite nicely.  This should be the direction we can go down.  Scouts and Mages can benefit from items that prevent them from being focus'd down as well as items that could grant short periods of tuant immunity.  Healers could recieve items that prevent interupts, control effects and/or aoe immunity.  These are just a few ideas on what can be done to "increase survivability" and not completely destroy the basic fundementals of a pvp encounter.</p><p>This would be giving classes tools to make them more survivable, not giving some one the ability to be super human.</p><p>The qoute you pulled was in context of the TSO pvp gear being a direct copy paste of the raid gear.  Im also pretty sure I also yold you that the ROK direction was the way to go.  And if you are interested in using my qoutes out of context I'd be more then willing to share yours and bend them to reflect what I want to say.</p><p>Kinda like the time you told me "The issue I am looking into is that if I add toughness to our current PVP sets, we will be way to overpowered"</p>

Thinwizzy
08-12-2010, 01:14 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Survivability means differant things for differant classes.  Like heelo all ready said global damage reduction is moronic.  Its all ready been said that balancing is done on a group vs. group level so if thats true lets look at what acually increases a classes survivability in a group.</p><p>In a group setting you would want your tank you have more ways to hold aggro.  This was addressed in ROK thru procs on pvp items and worked quite nicely.  This should be the direction we can go down.  Scouts and Mages can benefit from items that prevent them from being focus'd down as well as items that could grant short periods of tuant immunity.  Healers could recieve items that prevent interupts, control effects and/or aoe immunity.  These are just a few ideas on what can be done to "increase survivability" and not completely destroy the basic fundementals of a pvp encounter.</p><p>This would be giving classes tools to make them more survivable, not giving some one the ability to be super human.</p><p>The qoute you pulled was in context of the TSO pvp gear being a direct copy paste of the raid gear.  Im also pretty sure I also yold you that the ROK direction was the way to go.  And if you are interested in using my qoutes out of context I'd be more then willing to share yours and bend them to reflect what I want to say.</p><p>Kinda like the time you told me "The issue I am looking into is that if I add toughness to our current PVP sets, we will be way to overpowered"</p></blockquote><p>So what you're saying is, we should give classes a way to enhance their primary jobs instead of making everyone able to live through everything simply because of toughness?</p>

Wytie
08-12-2010, 01:15 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Survivability means differant things for differant classes.  Like heelo all ready said global damage reduction is moronic.  Its all ready been said that balancing is done on a group vs. group level so if thats true lets look at what acually increases a classes survivability in a group.</p><p>In a group setting you would want your tank you have more ways to hold aggro.  This was addressed in ROK thru procs on pvp items and worked quite nicely.  This should be the direction we can go down.  Scouts and Mages can benefit from items that prevent them from being focus'd down as well as items that could grant short periods of tuant immunity.  Healers could recieve items that prevent interupts, control effects and/or aoe immunity.  These are just a few ideas on what can be done to "increase survivability" and not completely destroy the basic fundementals of a pvp encounter.</p><p>This would be giving classes tools to make them more survivable, not giving some one the ability to be super human.</p><p>The qoute you pulled was in context of the TSO pvp gear being a direct copy paste of the raid gear.  Im also pretty sure I also yold you that the ROK direction was the way to go.  And if you are interested in using my qoutes out of context I'd be more then willing to share yours and bend them to reflect what I want to say.</p><p>Kinda like the time you told me "The issue I am looking into is that if I add toughness to our current PVP sets, we will be way to overpowered"</p></blockquote><p>So what you're saying is, we should give classes a way to enhance their primary jobs instead of making everyone able to live through everything simply because of toughness?</p></blockquote><p>That takes waaaay to much thought and work!</p>

Olihin
08-12-2010, 02:57 PM
<p>It is always a good thing to reflect on what was said and what was done. </p><p>If you actually look at all the new AA that were added to each class, they already covered a lot of the suggestions our players made in regards to class enhancements.   I was right in that adding toughness to our current PvP armor would make them overpowered.   That is why we have two set of armor now, so that your PvE armor does not become obsolete with the rest of your raid having PvP armor like it was in TSO.   </p><p>Toughness is not changing right now because we have other changes that need to be considered first.   So yes, we are always looking at the effects and ways to improve each class.   Yes it does take quite a bit of work to do so, and like it was told to everyone already; there are higher things on the priority list at this time.  </p><p>I want to continue communication with players.  It is always best to keep the ideas incoming, even though it may seem that changes take a bit longer at times. I will repeat to all once again, that simply because your suggestions are not implemented right away, it does not mean we have not considered them and plan to act upon them when time is available.  </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Thinwizzy
08-12-2010, 03:44 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is always a good thing to reflect on what was said and what was done. </p><p>If you actually look at all the new AA that were added to each class, they already covered a lot of the suggestions our players made in regards to class enhancements.   I was right in that adding toughness to our current PvP armor would make them overpowered.   That is why we have two set of armor now, so that your PvE armor does not become obsolete with the rest of your raid having PvP armor like it was in TSO.   </p><p>Toughness is not changing right now because we have other changes that need to be considered first.   So yes, we are always looking at the effects and ways to improve each class.   Yes it does take quite a bit of work to do so, and like it was told to everyone already; there are higher things on the priority list at this time.  </p><p>I want to continue communication with players.  It is always best to keep the ideas incoming, even though it may seem that changes take a bit longer at times. I will repeat to all once again, that simply because your suggestions are not implemented right away, it does not mean we have not considered them and plan to act upon them when time is available.  </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>If pvp armor actually took time, effort and skill to achieve; there would be no issue with pve armor becoming obsolete.  The answer to this problem should not have been nerfing our choice of armor; but should have been- what can be done to balance the quality of pvp gear with the effort it takes to aquire it.</p><p>Yes, people complained about crit mit on pvp gear being used in pve content in tso.  However, that complaint was not so much that it was possible, but that it was rediculously easy to get that crit mit. </p><p>Please stop trying to seperate our two types of gameplay.</p>

Magnis
08-12-2010, 03:50 PM
<p>You commented earlier that pvp weapons will be comming out, which is something we are all looking forwards to.  Personaly  I hope that they are not on sale for straight tokens, looking forwards to how they will be aquired. </p><p>Are you considering the weapons to be straight DPS increasers, since we will have to choose over DPS or survivability? I imagine they might come with a 50% toughness decrease.</p><p>Still looking forward. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

Forebian
08-12-2010, 04:06 PM
<p>Eliminate toughness for everyone but cloth-wearers.</p><p>I get stun-locked and dead in less than 3 seconds on a regular basis. Without toughness my toon would fall over dead at the sight of an assassin.</p><p>(this was a tongue-in-cheek comment)</p>

Wytie
08-12-2010, 04:29 PM
<p><cite>Forebian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eliminate toughness for everyone but cloth-wearers.</p><p>I get stun-locked and dead in less than 3 seconds on a regular basis. Without toughness my toon would fall over dead at the sight of an assassin.</p><p>(this was a tongue-in-cheek comment)</p></blockquote><p>No.</p><p>Toughness should have been tweeked to each class providing a different % of damage reduction/ damage increase and or pvp crit mit.</p><p>Not a flat cut in damage for everyone across the board before self damage reduction are considered. This is why toughness makes some classes with other gear and class skills so dam broken.</p>

Aiyana
08-12-2010, 05:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is always a good thing to reflect on what was said and what was done. </p><p>If you actually look at all the new AA that were added to each class, they already covered a lot of the suggestions our players made in regards to class enhancements.   I was right in that adding toughness to our current PvP armor would make them overpowered.   That is why we have two set of armor now, so that your PvE armor does not become obsolete with the rest of your raid having PvP armor like it was in TSO.   </p><p>Toughness is not changing right now because we have other changes that need to be considered first.   So yes, we are always looking at the effects and ways to improve each class.   Yes it does take quite a bit of work to do so, and like it was told to everyone already; there are higher things on the priority list at this time.  </p><p>I want to continue communication with players.  It is always best to keep the ideas incoming, even though it may seem that changes take a bit longer at times. I will repeat to all once again, that simply because your suggestions are not implemented right away, it does not mean we have not considered them and plan to act upon them when time is available.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>If pvp armor actually took time, effort and skill to achieve; there would be no issue with pve armor becoming obsolete.  The answer to this problem should not have been nerfing our choice of armor; but should have been- what can be done to balance the quality of pvp gear with the effort it takes to aquire it.</p><p>Yes, people complained about crit mit on pvp gear being used in pve content in tso.  However, that complaint was not so much that it was possible, but that it was rediculously easy to get that crit mit. </p><p>Please stop trying to seperate our two types of gameplay.</p></blockquote><p>This</p>

Hawkmoons
08-12-2010, 05:07 PM
<p>I do not care what they do to pvp gear, just make dam sure it is seperate from PvE raid gear, and for PvP only.</p>

Vlahkmaak
08-12-2010, 09:03 PM
<p><cite>Forebian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eliminate toughness for everyone but cloth-wearers.</p><p>I get stun-locked and dead in less than 3 seconds on a regular basis. Without toughness my toon would fall over dead at the sight of an assassin.</p><p>(this was a tongue-in-cheek comment)</p></blockquote><p>Are you serious: sorcerers have = mitigation to well geared plate tanks and on top of that regenerating wards that reduce damage further.  1:1 a well geared sorcerer can mitigate more damge than an = geared guardian.</p>

Sprin
08-12-2010, 09:16 PM
<p>LOL wow, this sounds a lot like a bunch of raiders complaining their armor isnt the best on a PVP server again...    </p><p>like the back of a shampoo bottle you guys are....</p><p>Rinse and Repeat....</p><p>Get over it and move to a blue server... the end, nobody will miss you TBH</p>

Vlahkmaak
08-12-2010, 09:23 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL wow, this sounds a lot like a bunch of raiders complaining their armor isnt the best on a PVP server again...    </p><p>like the back of a shampoo bottle you guys are....</p><p>Rinse and Repeat....</p><p>Get over it and move to a blue server... the end, nobody will miss you TBH</p></blockquote><p> MUCH of the raid gear remains superior for PVP application - grp torrent proc anyone? Most PVP damage is from PROCS - not CA/spells/ or player skill.  PROC stacking is the most effective way to kill someone and raid gear has the best procs minus a few choice instance pieces which work really nice too TBH. </p>

Sprin
08-12-2010, 09:37 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL wow, this sounds a lot like a bunch of raiders complaining their armor isnt the best on a PVP server again...    </p><p>like the back of a shampoo bottle you guys are....</p><p>Rinse and Repeat....</p><p>Get over it and move to a blue server... the end, nobody will miss you TBH</p></blockquote><p> MUCH of the raid gear remains superior for PVP application - grp torrent proc anyone? Most PVP damage is from PROCS - not CA/spells/ or player skill.  PROC stacking is the most effective way to kill someone and raid gear has the best procs minus a few choice instance pieces which work really nice too TBH. </p></blockquote><p>Raid gear doesnt provide toughness and we have raiders complaining that they want toughness removed, THEREFORE, this thread is Raiders complaining their gear isnt the best for PVP again...   old news... and Oilhin knows this...</p><p>Raiders have done this non stop for ages....   broken record TBH... they are mad about it... blah blah... go to a blue server</p>

BlueEternal
08-12-2010, 10:18 PM
<p>Ghettoblaster with his valuable input in a thread as expected. You came up with some brilliant ideas in your posts! Thank you sir. Your feedback is much appreciated!</p>

Sprin
08-12-2010, 10:21 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ghettoblaster with his valuable input in a thread as expected. You came up with some brilliant ideas in your posts! Thank you sir. Your feedback is much appreciated!</p></blockquote><p>Yes, my ideas were as follows:</p><p>Raiders that want to complain that their gear isnt the BESTEST of the BESTEST to use in PVP should go to blue servers, where they dont have to deal with it...</p><p>I'm terribly sorry if you couldn't add 1+1</p>

PeaSy1
08-13-2010, 06:30 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL wow, this sounds a lot like a bunch of raiders complaining their armor isnt the best on a PVP server again...    </p><p>like the back of a shampoo bottle you guys are....</p><p>Rinse and Repeat....</p><p>Get over it and move to a blue server... the end, nobody will miss you TBH</p></blockquote><p> MUCH of the raid gear remains superior for PVP application - grp torrent proc anyone? Most PVP damage is from PROCS - not CA/spells/ or player skill.  PROC stacking is the most effective way to kill someone and raid gear has the best procs minus a few choice instance pieces which work really nice too TBH. </p></blockquote><p>Torrent does do some sick damage <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> Dominating my inquiz with like no toughness.</p><p><img src="http://i35.tinypic.com/kboaj5.jpg" width="1161" height="98" /></p>

skylancer
08-17-2010, 06:02 PM
<p>I agree that toughness is a complete failure, SOE has admited it as well by implementing ... "pvp crit mit"..?????????</p><p>I thought tuffness was supposed to be pvp crit mit? what? Just take toughness away , put plain 'ol crit mit on BG gear, and bump the raid gear up a fair bit.</p><p>Raid gear should be btr than pvp gear imo, in all respects.</p>

Azekah1
08-17-2010, 06:08 PM
<p>Disable all item procs when enganged in pvp.</p><p>thanks</p>

Crismorn
08-17-2010, 06:13 PM
<p>Turn toughness into a proc and then do what the above poster said</p>

Taldier
08-17-2010, 06:25 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is always a good thing to reflect on what was said and what was done. </p><p>If you actually look at all the new AA that were added to each class, they already covered a lot of the suggestions our players made in regards to class enhancements.   I was right in that adding toughness to our current PvP armor would make them overpowered.   That is why we have two set of armor now, so that your PvE armor does not become obsolete with the rest of your raid having PvP armor like it was in TSO.   </p><p>Toughness is not changing right now because we have other changes that need to be considered first.   So yes, we are always looking at the effects and ways to improve each class.   Yes it does take quite a bit of work to do so, and like it was told to everyone already; there are higher things on the priority list at this time.  </p><p>I want to continue communication with players.  It is always best to keep the ideas incoming, even though it may seem that changes take a bit longer at times. I will repeat to all once again, that simply because your suggestions are not implemented right away, it does not mean we have not considered them and plan to act upon them when time is available.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>If pvp armor actually took time, effort and skill to achieve; there would be no issue with pve armor becoming obsolete.  The answer to this problem should not have been nerfing our choice of armor; but should have been- what can be done to balance the quality of pvp gear with the effort it takes to aquire it.</p><p>Yes, people complained about crit mit on pvp gear being used in pve content in tso.  However, that complaint was not so much that it was possible, but that it was rediculously easy to get that crit mit. </p><p>Please stop trying to seperate our two types of gameplay.</p></blockquote><p>This</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>There was never any problem with pvp gear being useful in pve and pve gear being useful in pvp.</p><p>The problem has always been your disastrous easymode pvp reward system that has repeatedly resulted in simple zerg farming at ls and tg and has finally killed off all competitive play on pvp servers.</p><p>Having to solo more q's at a time than there are freeps in the zone and having them all get equally rewarded for winning that fight isnt some mysterious population imbalance, people move to the larger population because they are actually rewarded more for outnumbering their opponents.</p>

convict
08-17-2010, 08:16 PM
<p>Thats funny. The group I've been in WF's with this week, have been outnumbered in every single wf but 1.</p>

Olihin
08-18-2010, 01:57 PM
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Greetings,</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">In regards to toughness, the change would <strong>need</strong> to be one that still make the stat desirable for lower level players.   As such, the current idea is to remove the PvP Critical Mitigation from the toughness and leave it at 40% damage reduction.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">This will then make the PvP Critical Mitigation stat more desirable and it can also be added to armor in the future. Currently you would be able to get the PvP Critical Mitigation using the Blue Adornments, and those would now be looked at with more consideration then they currently are.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Thoughts? </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Gungo
08-18-2010, 02:13 PM
<p>Sounds cool, but wasnt pvp crit mit added to toughness because of certain classes having high direct damage hits (in example 1 shotting players, hello mages).</p><p>Eitherway if a reasonable and controlled amount of pvp crit mit is added to the game this may help increase damage, while controlling the 1 hit wonders. This change however still makes classes with large Direct damage hits far superior then the sustained damage/DoT classes.</p>

Brynhild
08-18-2010, 03:00 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Greetings,</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">In regards to toughness, the change would <strong>need</strong> to be one that still make the stat desirable for lower level players.   As such, the current idea is to remove the PvP Critical Mitigation from the toughness and leave it at 40% damage reduction.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">This will then make the PvP Critical Mitigation stat more desirable and it can also be added to armor in the future. Currently you would be able to get the PvP Critical Mitigation using the Blue Adornments, and those would now be looked at with more consideration then they currently are.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Thoughts? </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Bad idea. Make toughness = pvp crit mit , period.</p><p>The lower levels don't do enough dps to worry about it, as it was perfectly fine in TSO.</p><p>Crit mit in pvp should be well over 100, which right now is pretty much unobtainable unless you put crit mit adorn on every piece of armor and use all the pvp jewelry.</p><p>Using full set of PVP armor, without jewelry should result in 100% crit mit in PVP , and then jewelry adds more, but no damage reduction.</p><p>We don't want the damage reduction part , just the crit mit part.</p><p>If you actually pvp in T8/9 you can see this easily; What happens is this:</p><p>Mage with 50% base crit bonus, 50% crit bonus from gear and 10% from aa or more = 110+ crit bonus, so PVP crit mit has to compensate for this and allow it to be 120% or higher to mitigate all possible crits from ANY class.  This makes classes with 50% base crit bonus not have huge advantage over people in pvp, just how it was in TSO.  It evens every class to not landing any crits at all, and then having no damage reduction will fix the rest of it.</p><p>If you are concerned about lower level pvp then change the armor to have wards or heal procs to compensate.</p>

Crismorn
08-18-2010, 03:32 PM
<p>If you MUST keep toughness then cap it at 20%, keep pvp crit mit, but feel free to also cap it.</p>

Dreadpatch
08-18-2010, 03:37 PM
I like the idea of keeping one or the other with a cap. Would make BG a lot more fun

FrostDragon
08-18-2010, 07:39 PM
<p>Oddly I hear everyone talking of toughness as though it was a percent rather then a flat number.</p><p>it shows my mitigation is 61 percent in a PvP and 52 in PvE.  and TOUGHNESS is the stat that does this... I have 6 Slots of BG FABLED armor.   The whine of get rid of toughness is crazy. </p><p> The call should be tiering toughness like off stats which give reduced effect the higher it gets.  SOE has the mechanics in the engine to do this and Olihin may look into that if your nice.</p><p>allmost all my PvP damage I recieve is critical and from Proc gear.  recieving 8k from 1 hit and 5 or 6 procs is OP.  crit mitigation adornments are crazy weak.   The crit Bonus Gear could push the crit bonus to 160 and even with the weak adronments you can't drop that.  </p><p>88/225 Dirge</p>

Crismorn
08-18-2010, 07:42 PM
<p>Toughness simply fools weaker players into thinking that they are competing when in fact they are just making everything in the game lame and unfun</p>

ColZeed
08-19-2010, 08:45 PM
<p><span><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span><font size="2"><p><span style="background-color: #fff;"><span></span></span></p></font></span></span><p></p></span><span >My<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">suggestion</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;">:</span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">reduce</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">the</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">effectiveness</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">of</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">toughness</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">and</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">add</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">items</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">with</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">toughness</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">proc</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;">.</span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">This</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">will</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">make</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">some</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">chance</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">of</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">luck</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">in</span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">PvP</span></span></p>

Brynhild
08-20-2010, 08:14 AM
<p><cite>ColZeed wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span><span style="font-size: x-small;"><p><span style="background-color: #fff;"><span></span></span></p></span></span></span></span></p><span>My<span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">suggestion</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";">:</span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">reduce</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">the</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">effectiveness</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">of</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">toughness</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">and</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">add</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">items</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">with</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">toughness</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">proc</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";">.</span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">This</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">will</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">make</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">some</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">chance</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">of</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">luck</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">in</span><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">PvP</span></span></blockquote><p>LOL, are you kidding me? PVP is not about luck, it's about skill and working together.</p><p>Think about it, remove damage reduction entirely and make crit mit 120% or higher if you have a full set of gear on. That way classes with super high crit bonus don't benefit from it.   No damage reduction will allow all classes to have a fair chance to dps, while the high pvp crit mit will make it so pretty much nothing in pvp crits at all if you have full set on so there is no unfair advantage to the high crit bonus classes, and potency becomes the determing factor in spells/ca hits instead.  This is how it was in TSO, and it worked great.</p><p>Please respond about this so hopefully they will change it.  </p><p>If they cap pvp crit mit, and reduce damage reduction then we are back at being insta-killed by mages, assassins, rangers, rogues, etc.     If pvp crit mit is doubled from its current state then those classes do not gain an advantage, even if damage reduction is totally removed, then it's all even.</p>

mrsma
08-20-2010, 09:22 AM
<p>Most people knew where they stood when it was "old school" PVP.</p><p>PVP Crit Mit was easy to understand.</p><p>There are now, in my opinion, far too many "additional" considerations on PVP itemisation, so the problem of changing a simple aspect turns into a major project. ( I am not a techy but you get my drift).</p><p>Stop complicating things and go back a couple of years. Have Crit mit on items and Crit Mit on Adornments mean more than they do now.</p><p>And please can I have my PVP Crit Mit count towards PVE Crit Mit like the old days <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

Olihin
08-24-2010, 06:25 PM
<p><span style="font-size: small;">Greetings,</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">A few changes are coming to the game.  </span></p> <ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">Bow damage changes, damage increased. </span></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">2 Handed Weapon changes, damage increased.</span></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">Mutilation procs will no longer be dispelled.</span><ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">This will now allow players with the proc to focus their attacks and burn down a target.</span></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">The duration of the proc is 10 seconds. </span></li></ul></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">New weapons with higher dps bonus are being considered.  </span></li></ul> <p><span style="font-size: small;">Overall, the healing and toughness will remain as they are.  We need to monitor the changes to make sure we are not changing everything at once and masking the real issues which we hope are being addressed. If we find that the balance is still not there, we can easily change the toughness and lastly any healing that may still be a bit over the top.  </span></p><p>Just wanted to update everyone on this to avoid confusion from the Battleground threads and PvP threads.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Thinwizzy
08-24-2010, 06:39 PM
<p>Adding in more gear procs and gear effects to help combat the other gear effects that created the problem is not the answer.</p><p>When troubleshooting a problem, one should look at the last change made that started causing issues and remove that change and try something else; the solution is never keep adding stuff in and hope it comes out right.  Sometimes, working backwards and undoing changes and tweaks is the best solution.</p>

EndevorX
08-24-2010, 06:43 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Well, hopefully there are some 6 second delay weapons with other procs/mods on top of mutilation, and maybe a way to augment 1-2 accessories with mutilation...I dont like cookie cutter specifications... =[</span></p>

Olihin
08-24-2010, 06:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Adding in more gear procs and gear effects to help combat the other gear effects that created the problem is not the answer.</p><p>When troubleshooting a problem, one should look at the last change made that started causing issues and remove that change and try something else; the solution is never keep adding stuff in and hope it comes out right.  Sometimes, working backwards and undoing changes and tweaks is the best solution.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;">That is correct.  We are fixing a proc that should have been working correctly at the same time toughness was introduced.  Should it had worked correctly, we feel the issue with toughness would be less then what it is at this time.   We want to </span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span>test this theory before making any other changes. </span></span></p><p>Before the trolls feed:  TEST is what I put down, but we have tested it and like how it plays right now.  As always we want to see how a whole server uses the ability as well before further changes are made.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Roald
08-24-2010, 06:55 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">Greetings,</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">A few changes are coming to the game.  </span></p> <ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">Bow damage changes, damage increased. </span></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">2 Handed Weapon changes, damage increased.</span></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">Mutilation procs will no longer be dispelled.</span><ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">This will now allow players with the proc to focus their attacks and burn down a target.</span></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">The duration of the proc is 10 seconds. </span></li></ul></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">New weapons with higher dps bonus are being considered.  </span></li></ul> <p><span style="font-size: small;">Overall, the healing and toughness will remain as they are.  We need to monitor the changes to make sure we are not changing everything at once and masking the real issues which we hope are being addressed. If we find that the balance is still not there, we can easily change the toughness and lastly any healing that may still be a bit over the top.  </span></p><p>Just wanted to update everyone on this to avoid confusion from the Battleground threads and PvP threads.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>You realise that not a single part of that affects mages right? </p><p>And just an FYI, there's not a single class I've seen top more VG parses than the ranger. Read into that what you will!</p>

Blambil
08-24-2010, 07:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> The ROK jewelry was the first sign of "smart and intellegent" design.  The fact that its gone away from that and simply made into a copy paste design is your direction.</p></blockquote><p>I agree, the RoK PVP armor/jewlery was, intended for PVP... people didn't often wear PVP gear to raid because they had better RAID gear.. They didn't often wear RAID gear to PVP because they had better PVP gear..</p><p>BG armor, honestly, is pretty decent raid gear.. not "ubah" but decent.. enough that most people raid in it util they get higher tier, which for some chars, may mean never.</p>

Blambil
08-24-2010, 07:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span style="font-size: small;">Bow damage changes, damage increased. </span><ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">2 Handed Weapon changes, damage increased.</span></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">Mutilation procs will no longer be dispelled.</span><ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">This will now allow players with the proc to focus their attacks and burn down a target.</span></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">The duration of the proc is 10 seconds. </span></li></ul></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">New weapons with higher dps bonus are being considered.  </span></li></ul><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></blockquote><p>You realise that not a single part of that affects mages right? </p></blockquote><p>oh it affects mages alright.... death will come all the faster..</p><p>None of this HELPS mages at all....... that love is a LONG time coming...  (not talking about currently broken over-warded sorcerers... talking about Mages in general)</p>

EQ2Player
08-25-2010, 02:18 AM
<p>Get rid of toughness so we can simplify things and wear any piece of gear without swapping. Toughness is just another ingredient in a complicated mess already. Ditch it.</p>

Davngr1
08-25-2010, 01:28 PM
<p>the same way BG gear should be a bad choice for raid content, raid gear should be a bad choice for BG content.</p> <p>   it's really that simple and removing toughness or reducing the current survivability offered by BG gear would in fact over power raid gear more then it all ready is now.      </p> <p>   and these groups that don't die are for the most part pre-fabricated guild groups.   that's not how i play BG 95% of the time and most people who play also don't roll with only pre-fab groups.   SO to balance bg's around those type of groups is dumb.   </p> <p>  offer some type of pre-fabricated "only" qued option and give them twice the tokens to justify the longer wait times and small effort required to put together a group.</p> <p>  again.   lowering the effectiveness of BG gear will only further OVER POWER high end raid gear.   this is not an option..    fine we can easy mode heroic content with raid gear all we want but that's where it stops.    trivializing pvp progression and instead emphasizing raid progression is out of whack and would kill any sense of fair play.     the same way trivializing raid progression with pvp gear would be.</p>

Darkor
08-25-2010, 03:10 PM
<p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p>

Brynhild
08-25-2010, 03:53 PM
<p>Remove the mutilation completely, remove the damage reduction, give us a lot more pvp crit mit, problem solved.  It will be like it was in TSO.</p><p>What is the issue with doing this?</p><p>And making rangers do MORE damage? what is up with that, they already do some of the most damage in pvp aside from assassins and u want to make it even MORE easy mode for them?</p><p>Fix fettering poison so we actually have a chance of hitting  them once before we die, how about that?</p><p>Sigh..</p>

Zacarus
08-25-2010, 05:01 PM
<p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p>

Stuckx
08-25-2010, 05:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p>

Grimfort
08-25-2010, 06:03 PM
<p>I don't think I really understand this toughness stat. I just had a "quick" fight with a sin and died in about 2-3 seconds. A shadow step hit me for just under 10k, followed by 2 x 4k+ hits all being the crits. I have 92% crit reduction according to toughness and 75% spell resists. (67% mit and 18% crit mit but I assume they not being used?). How do these stack up to allow a 10k crit through? Using my wonderful *cough* grandmaster HT hit for a huge 1k dmg am I missing the point?</p>

Zacarus
08-25-2010, 09:06 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p><p>That's pretty dramatic...  what's probably closer to the truth is the people who were used to being top pvp dogs due to their active raid schedule may now be sitting on the sidelines frustrated that non-raiders can compete on close* to a level playing field.</p><p>*note i said, "close," to a level playing field because raiders still have the upper hand in pvp</p></p>

EndevorX
08-25-2010, 09:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p>That's pretty dramatic...  what's probably closer to the truth is the people who were used to being top pvp dogs due to their active raid schedule may now be sitting on the sidelines frustrated that non-raiders can compete on close* to a level playing field.</p><p>*note i said, "close," to a level playing field because raiders still have the upper hand in pvp</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Yeah I dunno where those like Truck or Stuckx get off acting like raid gear is useless in PvP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I've already addressed that fabrication, but they tend to just ignore it when confronted.</span></p><div><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Waking wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just some simple thoughts on what has changed in the last year and a half.</p><p>The best gear is now from instances - You can't pvp in instances <span style="color: #ff0000;">False. The best gear for PVP is currently from BG/PVP,which is part of the reason PVP is now steadily dying.</span></p><p>The instances are decentralized - You don't pass people on the way nearly as much. <span style="color: #ff0000;">You don't pass people as much because none of them are doing instances. No one on a PVP server wants to run instances when the gear doesn't help them at all in PVP.</span></p><p>There aren't as many tough contested raids - No reason to put together multiple raids. <span style="color: #ff0000;">That probably has more to do with SOE's poor servers and the massive lag that occurs when more than 24 people are in a zone.</span></p><p>The best gear for PvP can be had without really doing open world PvP. <span style="color: #ff0000;">This is true. BG's provide the best gear for PVP. This results in no one wanting to do the PVE content..which results in no groups..no interaction with other players,and boredom. People get bored doing nothing but PVP all day,and they get bored fast.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Seperation of PVE and PVP(by making PVE gear useless in PVP) is killing the PVP servers..plain and simple.</span></p><p>Is there a way to fix this that wouldn't hinder the fun of PvE players on non-PvP servers?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes. Make PVE a valid method of obtaining gear to better your character in PVP. This does not mean make PVP gear that can be used to make raiding easy mode. Make it so people's hard earned PVE gear is a viable option in PVP..this will result in people WANTING to run zones and raid and get all that uber gear thats going to give them a leg up on the competition.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP cannot exist in a game like EQ2 without PVE to balance it and give players something to do other than PVP(while at the same time still advancing their character to be better in a PVP situation.) This is a fact. It's been proven. Look at the state of the game in KoS/EoF..thriving PVP servers with a health mix of PVP and PVE. Hell..it was still perfectly find in TSO,even though the PVP gear made raiding easy mode. The PVP servers are going down the tube,and they're circling the drain faster and faster because PVPers are bored spamming BG's all day without experiencing the rest of the game. Until the devs get this through their thick skulls..the servers are going to continue to suffer.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Uhm...I'd also note that people succeed plentifully in PvP, even with builds that are 70% PvE drops.</span></p></blockquote><p>I'm not seeing it. I logged in my 90 warden with 28% damage reduction  and people were dropping my health without much trouble at all. I was able to survive with a few people beating on me,but only barely. I don't see anyone being successfull with 70% PVE gear..their toughness would be lowere than mine and they'd die alot faster.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">All it takes is 15/21 pieces for a nearly full, 70% PvE specification.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">6 pieces of PvP armor is all it takes to have 25% damage mitigation and 83% critical mitigation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And believe me, you're GRAVELY mistaken if you think there aren't 15 top-tier, high-end raiding items that are leaps and bounds ABOVE what is available as PvP/battlegrounds gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Are you not acquainted with </span><a href="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/items.php" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em><strong>eq2.xanadu-community.com/items.php</strong></em></span></a><span style="color: #ff6600;"> or something?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">It's very easy to identify extremely viable equipment options as a priest.</span></p></blockquote></div><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">But yeah, <strong>I'd just like to see tests with the damage mitigation component cut by 50% or 75%, because making mutilate uncurable will just force boring, cookie cutter specifications if there isn't: a way to augment at least 1-2 normal accessories with mutilate, as well as vastly improved weapon offerings (hopefully listed at exorbitant, <span style="font-size: medium;"><em>irreducible</em> </span>token rates to warrant their rarity and demand, see: </strong></span><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; color: #ffffff; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=483729&post_id=5396123">Re:Re:GU #57: No new PvP/BG accessories? Timetravelling said...</a></span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>).</strong></span></p>

bRz
08-25-2010, 11:58 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm by your logic toughness ruined pve, might want to rethink that statement.</p><p>and why should raiding mean you deserve better gear for pvp than someone who just pvps?</p>

Vlahkmaak
08-26-2010, 12:52 AM
<p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm by your logic toughness ruined pve, might want to rethink that statement.</p><p>and why should raiding mean you deserve better gear for pvp than someone who just pvps?</p></blockquote><p>In RoK and TSO people who only PVP'd could earn comparable armor.  Toughness was not needed.  Only crit mit mattered then.  Toughness is a rip off from wow.  If we wanted to play wow we'd be playing that game.  Toughness is a failed mechanic.  Things had some semblance of normality at the ed of TSO.  The borked resist issue and toughness screwed SF pvp up for quite some time.  Toughness means we have to further split time sink between trying to raid, trying to PVP, and trying to run instnaces and run major story line quests in the name of seperate armor sets.</p><p>Instead of improving upon what existed a complete fail mechanic was introduced which further made OP classes more OP.  Instead of tweaking classes in PVP this past year and balancing tanks in PVE we instead get screwy mechanics, bulls running wild in the china store over fighter heals and a great big STUPID xp bar with a shiney SC button no one wanted in addition to the EQ2x servers which will begin to drain our resources and cartoony graphics effects.</p><p>We have been kicked to the curb.</p>

Taldier
08-26-2010, 12:54 AM
<p>There is no such thing as gear for "someone who just pvps" until they fix the reward system so that it actually requires you to be able to kill another player in pvp combat to be rewarded.  Until then there is only "a bunch of people who just farm tokens".</p>

Darkor
08-26-2010, 01:16 PM
<p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm by your logic toughness ruined pve, might want to rethink that statement.</p><p>and why should raiding mean you deserve better gear for pvp than someone who just pvps?</p></blockquote><p>Wrong wrong wrong. You still have no idea what impact toughness has in this game.</p><p>BEFORE raid gear was superior than anything. THEN they brought in pvp gear which did counter most of the raid gear making things even in pvp. NOW pvp gear is better than raid gear in pvp and this is wrong. Gear should be equal to either style and never favour one. I LOVE to pvp, i have chars in all tiers but i hate the idea of having to aquire 2 gear sets on every toon, let alone carry them with me and switch each time i do pve or pvp. I refuse to equip toughness gear, i have only 1 armor piece and only because raid legs dont feel like dropping.</p><p>Again: I have no problem with casuals getting good armor, but toughness has to go because right now the pvp gear is better than the rest. People do not pvp all day on the server and they do not do pve all day. We do a mix of both and some like to pvp more and some like to pve more, Ohilin should respect that.</p>

Bosconi
08-26-2010, 01:53 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There is no such thing as gear for "someone who just pvps" until they fix the reward system so that it actually requires you to be able to kill another player in pvp combat to be rewarded.  Until then there is only "a bunch of people who just farm tokens".</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Welllll my warfields victor bonuses in the Fan Faire Feedback in Action thread would fix that! ;D</span></p>

Taldier
08-26-2010, 02:33 PM
<p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There is no such thing as gear for "someone who just pvps" until they fix the reward system so that it actually requires you to be able to kill another player in pvp combat to be rewarded.  Until then there is only "a bunch of people who just farm tokens".</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Welllll my warfields victor bonuses in the Fan Faire Feedback in Action thread would fix that! ;D</span></p></blockquote><p>Pressing the ranged attack button is not "killing a player in pvp combat".</p><p>Reward systems that encourage 20+ vs 1 are not rewarding "pvp combat".</p>

Olihin
08-26-2010, 02:42 PM
<p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm by your logic toughness ruined pve, might want to rethink that statement.</p><p>and why should raiding mean you deserve better gear for pvp than someone who just pvps?</p></blockquote><p>Wrong wrong wrong. You still have no idea what impact toughness has in this game.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>1. </strong></span>BEFORE raid gear was superior than anything.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>2. </strong></span>THEN they brought in pvp gear which did counter most of the raid gear making things even in pvp.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>3. </strong></span>NOW pvp gear is better than raid gear in pvp and this is wrong.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>4. </strong></span>Gear should be equal to either style and never favour one.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>5. </strong></span>I LOVE to pvp, i have chars in all tiers but i hate the idea of having to aquire 2 gear sets on every toon, let alone carry them with me and switch each time i di pve to pvp. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>6.</strong></span> I refuse to equip toughness gear, i have only 1 armor piece and only because raid legs dont feel like dropping.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>7. </strong></span>Again: I have no problem with casuals getting good armor, but toughness has to go because right now the pvp gear is better than the rest. People do not pvp all day on the server and they do not do pve all day. We do a mix of both and some like to pvp more and some like to pve more, Ohilin should respect that.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">1. This is true and this was huge problem for everyone except the 24 on the raid rosters of our very limited successful raid guilds, their alts and whomever was rich enough to buy the loot rights.   In fairness, I would say 100 people found this to be the true golden age of PvP.   Everyone else?  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">2.  This caused the 100 people previously mention to PM me to no end about the unfairness that now maybe 100 more people would have the gear that competes with their raid gear.   This change also exposed the huge desire of everyone to want to participate in PvP and gave hundreds of other players hope of competition.   The reaction against the "copy paste" armor was huge, positive or negative the need for a new approach was requested.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">3.  What we have now is probably the best compromise.   Raid gear is still superior for PvE, but competitive in PvP.   PvP Gear is superior for PvP, and useful towards gaining competitive gear in PvE.   Yes that is not equal but you can solo your way to a full set of PvP gear.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">4. That is the ideal but the reality is that we need to look at the health of the game when considering this approach.  Battlegrounds sharing the same rewards with Open PvP is a huge consideration when making the armor.   In time, new features will be created to change this, but in the meantime the armor needs to follow our current trend.    </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">5.  Items are HEIRLOOM.  Tokens are HEIRLOOM.  This was done to facilitate the 'twinking' of your alts.   I honestly am more concerned with players trying to gear up their main character.   That is the problem we had.   People could not even get themselves a full set of gear to compete, so now they have a choice and a progression path toward their playstyle.   At the same time you have "who are you, and where did you come from" player suddenly defeating those that once roamed the lands without fear.   This is not a detriment to PvP at all, but it encourages the top PvP players to stay on top, regardless of who faces them.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">6.  This sounds more like a personal matter then a PvP concern.   The fact that you are wearing PvP legs, just because the PvE ones have yet to drop, show that you don't think they are that bad of an item.   At the same time it shows the frustration experienced by Raiders in point 2, where they felt forced to PvP to fill up on slots they where missing in TSO.   Having to PvP was the most frustrating thing for quite a few players.  Now they don't have to worry about that and the acquisition of PvP gear is only because the players wants to, not because they need to.  </span></p><p>In addition, the bag slots are huge now.  The macro to load your armor is simple.  If you are going to PvP then wear your PvP gear.  If you are going to PvE then wear your raid gear.   Sure you may die once, but then that just means the flag was not planted in the right spot.  If you want to bring up questing in overland zones; the PvP items are more then enough to defeat any quest target.</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">7.  I hope that in my previous responses you see that I do in fact respect everyone's opinion.   The goal is to produce a healthy PvP environment for everyone to enjoy.   We have many game changes that affect PvP and they are beyond my control.   So when changes are made please understand that I am always running around in game listening to what people say and try to do my best to provide the right information to the team so that we can make the best choices for PvP.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Darkor
08-26-2010, 02:49 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm by your logic toughness ruined pve, might want to rethink that statement.</p><p>and why should raiding mean you deserve better gear for pvp than someone who just pvps?</p></blockquote><p>Wrong wrong wrong. You still have no idea what impact toughness has in this game.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>1. </strong></span>BEFORE raid gear was superior than anything.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>2. </strong></span>THEN they brought in pvp gear which did counter most of the raid gear making things even in pvp.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>3. </strong></span>NOW pvp gear is better than raid gear in pvp and this is wrong.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>4. </strong></span>Gear should be equal to either style and never favour one.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>5. </strong></span>I LOVE to pvp, i have chars in all tiers but i hate the idea of having to aquire 2 gear sets on every toon, let alone carry them with me and switch each time i di pve to pvp. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>6.</strong></span> I refuse to equip toughness gear, i have only 1 armor piece and only because raid legs dont feel like dropping.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>7. </strong></span>Again: I have no problem with casuals getting good armor, but toughness has to go because right now the pvp gear is better than the rest. People do not pvp all day on the server and they do not do pve all day. We do a mix of both and some like to pvp more and some like to pve more, Ohilin should respect that.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">1. This is true and this was huge problem for everyone except the 24 on the raid rosters of our very limited successful raid guilds, their alts and whomever was rich enough to buy the loot rights.   In fairness, I would say 100 people found this to be the true golden age of PvP.   Everyone else?  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">2.  This caused the 100 people previously mention to PM me to no end about the unfairness that now maybe 100 more people would have the gear that competes with their raid gear.   This change also exposed the huge desire of everyone to want to participate in PvP and gave hundreds of other players hope of competition.   The reaction against the "copy paste" armor was huge, positive or negative the need for a new approach was requested.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">3.  What we have now is probably the best compromise.   Raid gear is still superior for PvE, but competitive in PvP.   PvP Gear is superior for PvP, and useful towards gaining competitive gear in PvE.   Yes that is not equal but you can solo your way to a full set of PvP gear.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">4. That is the ideal but the reality is that we need to look at the health of the game when considering this approach.  Battlegrounds sharing the same rewards with Open PvP is a huge consideration when making the armor.   In time, new features will be created to change this, but in the meantime the armor needs to follow our current trend.    </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">5.  Items are HEIRLOOM.  Tokens are HEIRLOOM.  This was done to facilitate the 'twinking' of your alts.   I honestly am more concerned with players trying to gear up their main character.   That is the problem we had.   People could not even get themselves a full set of gear to compete, so now they have a choice and a progression path toward their playstyle.   At the same time you have "who are you, and where did you come from" player suddenly defeating those that once roamed the lands without fear.   This is not a detriment to PvP at all, but it encourages the top PvP players to stay on top, regardless of who faces them.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">6.  This sounds more like a personal matter then a PvP concern.   The fact that you are wearing PvP legs, just because the PvE ones have yet to drop, show that you don't think they are that bad of an item.   At the same time it shows the frustration experienced by Raiders in point 2, where they felt forced to PvP to fill up on slots they where missing in TSO.   Having to PvP was the most frustrating thing for quite a few players.  Now they don't have to worry about that and the acquisition of PvP gear is only because the players wants to, not because they need to.  </span></p><p>In addition, the bag slots are huge now.  The macro to load your armor is simple.  If you are going to PvP then wear your PvP gear.  If you are going to PvE then wear your raid gear.   Sure you may die once, but then that just means the flag was not planted in the right spot.  If you want to bring up questing in overland zones; the PvP items are more then enough to defeat any quest target.</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">7.  I hope that in my previous responses you see that I do in fact respect everyone's opinion.   The goal is to produce a healthy PvP environment for everyone to enjoy.   We have many game changes that affect PvP and they are beyond my control.   So when changes are made please understand that I am always running around in game listening to what people say and try to do my best to provide the right information to the team so that we can make the best choices for PvP.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Thanks for the detailled answer. I know where you are coming from. But i still cant favor the 2 equipment sets idea. I dont know how others see it, but its allready too much work for me to play all my chars in PvE, let alone having to pvp enough to get all of em decked out for pvp aswell. Atleast for me, i cant talk for others, toughnes is destroying the game for me. Im forced to do something otherwise im gonna eat more 10k shadow steps / Assassinates and what else. It has worked for so long in the past, i dont understand how it cant suddenly.</p>

Davngr1
08-26-2010, 03:02 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm by your logic toughness ruined pve, might want to rethink that statement.</p><p>and why should raiding mean you deserve better gear for pvp than someone who just pvps?</p></blockquote><p>Wrong wrong wrong. You still have no idea what impact toughness has in this game.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>1. </strong></span>BEFORE raid gear was superior than anything.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>2. </strong></span>THEN they brought in pvp gear which did counter most of the raid gear making things even in pvp.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>3. </strong></span>NOW pvp gear is better than raid gear in pvp and this is wrong.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>4. </strong></span>Gear should be equal to either style and never favour one.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>5. </strong></span>I LOVE to pvp, i have chars in all tiers but i hate the idea of having to aquire 2 gear sets on every toon, let alone carry them with me and switch each time i di pve to pvp. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>6.</strong></span> I refuse to equip toughness gear, i have only 1 armor piece and only because raid legs dont feel like dropping.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>7. </strong></span>Again: I have no problem with casuals getting good armor, but toughness has to go because right now the pvp gear is better than the rest. People do not pvp all day on the server and they do not do pve all day. We do a mix of both and some like to pvp more and some like to pve more, Ohilin should respect that.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">1. This is true and this was huge problem for everyone except the 24 on the raid rosters of our very limited successful raid guilds, their alts and whomever was rich enough to buy the loot rights.   In fairness, I would say 100 people found this to be the true golden age of PvP.   Everyone else?  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">2.  This caused the 100 people previously mention to PM me to no end about the unfairness that now maybe 100 more people would have the gear that competes with their raid gear.   This change also exposed the huge desire of everyone to want to participate in PvP and gave hundreds of other players hope of competition.   The reaction against the "copy paste" armor was huge, positive or negative the need for a new approach was requested.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">3.  What we have now is probably the best compromise.   Raid gear is still superior for PvE, but competitive in PvP.   PvP Gear is superior for PvP, and useful towards gaining competitive gear in PvE.   Yes that is not equal but you can solo your way to a full set of PvP gear.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">4. That is the ideal but the reality is that we need to look at the health of the game when considering this approach.  Battlegrounds sharing the same rewards with Open PvP is a huge consideration when making the armor.   In time, new features will be created to change this, but in the meantime the armor needs to follow our current trend.    </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">5.  Items are HEIRLOOM.  Tokens are HEIRLOOM.  This was done to facilitate the 'twinking' of your alts.   I honestly am more concerned with players trying to gear up their main character.   That is the problem we had.   People could not even get themselves a full set of gear to compete, so now they have a choice and a progression path toward their playstyle.   At the same time you have "who are you, and where did you come from" player suddenly defeating those that once roamed the lands without fear.   This is not a detriment to PvP at all, but it encourages the top PvP players to stay on top, regardless of who faces them.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">6.  This sounds more like a personal matter then a PvP concern.   The fact that you are wearing PvP legs, just because the PvE ones have yet to drop, show that you don't think they are that bad of an item.   At the same time it shows the frustration experienced by Raiders in point 2, where they felt forced to PvP to fill up on slots they where missing in TSO.   Having to PvP was the most frustrating thing for quite a few players.  Now they don't have to worry about that and the acquisition of PvP gear is only because the players wants to, not because they need to.  </span></p><p>In addition, the bag slots are huge now.  The macro to load your armor is simple.  If you are going to PvP then wear your PvP gear.  If you are going to PvE then wear your raid gear.   Sure you may die once, but then that just means the flag was not planted in the right spot.  If you want to bring up questing in overland zones; the PvP items are more then enough to defeat any quest target.</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">7.  I hope that in my previous responses you see that I do in fact respect everyone's opinion.   The goal is to produce a healthy PvP environment for everyone to enjoy.   We have many game changes that affect PvP and they are beyond my control.   So when changes are made please understand that I am always running around in game listening to what people say and try to do my best to provide the right information to the team so that we can make the best choices for PvP.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p> great post.   well said.</p><p>  and because you coulden't/didn't say it..</p><p> <span style="color: #ff6600;"> </span><span style="font-size: large; color: #ff6600;">QQ</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> </span><span style="font-size: large; color: #ff6600;">M</span><span style="font-size: large; color: #ff6600;">OAR</span></p>

Neskonlith
08-26-2010, 03:03 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>1. </strong></span>BEFORE raid gear was superior than anything.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>2. </strong></span>THEN they brought in pvp gear which did counter most of the raid gear making things even in pvp.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>3. </strong></span>NOW pvp gear is better than raid gear in pvp and this is wrong.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>4. </strong></span>Gear should be equal to either style and never favour one.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>5. </strong></span>I LOVE to pvp, i have chars in all tiers but i hate the idea of having to aquire 2 gear sets on every toon, let alone carry them with me and switch each time i di pve to pvp. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>6.</strong></span> I refuse to equip toughness gear, i have only 1 armor piece and only because raid legs dont feel like dropping.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>7. </strong></span>Again: I have no problem with casuals getting good armor, but toughness has to go because right now the pvp gear is better than the rest. People do not pvp all day on the server and they do not do pve all day. We do a mix of both and some like to pvp more and some like to pve more, Ohilin should respect that.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">1. This is true and this was huge problem for everyone except the 24 on the raid rosters of our very limited successful raid guilds, their alts and whomever was rich enough to buy the loot rights.   In fairness, I would say 100 people found this to be the true golden age of PvP.   Everyone else?  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">2.  This caused the 100 people previously mention to PM me to no end about the unfairness that now maybe 100 more people would have the gear that competes with their raid gear.   This change also exposed the huge desire of everyone to want to participate in PvP and gave hundreds of other players hope of competition.   The reaction against the "copy paste" armor was huge, positive or negative the need for a new approach was requested.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">3.  What we have now is probably the best compromise.   Raid gear is still superior for PvE, but competitive in PvP.   PvP Gear is superior for PvP, and useful towards gaining competitive gear in PvE.   Yes that is not equal but you can solo your way to a full set of PvP gear.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">4. That is the ideal but the reality is that we need to look at the health of the game when considering this approach.  Battlegrounds sharing the same rewards with Open PvP is a huge consideration when making the armor.   In time, new features will be created to change this, but in the meantime the armor needs to follow our current trend.    </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">5.  Items are HEIRLOOM.  Tokens are HEIRLOOM.  This was done to facilitate the 'twinking' of your alts.   I honestly am more concerned with players trying to gear up their main character.   That is the problem we had.   People could not even get themselves a full set of gear to compete, so now they have a choice and a progression path toward their playstyle.   At the same time you have "who are you, and where did you come from" player suddenly defeating those that once roamed the lands without fear.   This is not a detriment to PvP at all, but it encourages the top PvP players to stay on top, regardless of who faces them.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">6.  This sounds more like a personal matter then a PvP concern.   The fact that you are wearing PvP legs, just because the PvE ones have yet to drop, show that you don't think they are that bad of an item.   At the same time it shows the frustration experienced by Raiders in point 2, where they felt forced to PvP to fill up on slots they where missing in TSO.   Having to PvP was the most frustrating thing for quite a few players.  Now they don't have to worry about that and the acquisition of PvP gear is only because the players wants to, not because they need to.  </span></p><p>In addition, the bag slots are huge now.  The macro to load your armor is simple.  If you are going to PvP then wear your PvP gear.  If you are going to PvE then wear your raid gear.   Sure you may die once, but then that just means the flag was not planted in the right spot.  If you want to bring up questing in overland zones; the PvP items are more then enough to defeat any quest target.</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">7.  I hope that in my previous responses you see that I do in fact respect everyone's opinion.   The goal is to produce a healthy PvP environment for everyone to enjoy.   We have many game changes that affect PvP and they are beyond my control.   So when changes are made please understand that I am always running around in game listening to what people say and try to do my best to provide the right information to the team so that we can make the best choices for PvP.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Thanks for doing what you can to help PVP out, at the very least an honest effort is being made to find PVP solutions for PVP issues!</span></p>

Neskonlith
08-26-2010, 03:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I vaguely recall it was just before FanFaire that Olihin was in FP side 80-89 chat where he mentioned something to the effect that Nagafen has the most active numbers of PVE instances of all the servers... can anyone else recall this?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If this is the case, then perhaps for some of those people, the described lack of invites to groups might be a result of everyone else too busy having fun in instances to group up with the handful who often deride the majority Casuals as scrubbies.</span></p>

Oakum
08-26-2010, 03:25 PM
<p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thanks for the detailled answer. I know where you are coming from. But i still cant favor the 2 equipment sets idea. I dont know how others see it, but its allready too much work for me to play all my chars in PvE, let alone having to pvp enough to get all of em decked out for pvp aswell. Atleast for me, i cant talk for others, toughnes is destroying the game for me. Im forced to do something otherwise im gonna eat more 10k shadow steps / Assassinates and what else. It has worked for so long in the past, i dont understand how it cant suddenly.</p></blockquote><p>As a leather wearing priest in BG's, toughness is a must. Otherwise druids would be one shotted by anyone with a big nuke or melee attack and killed within 10 seconds by any one with quick spells or decent melee autoattack and a stun, stifle or interupt.  Druids do not have the high avoidance or mit of brawlers and once the emergancies are down are almost helpless for 8 to 10 minutes and the death prevents do nothing but add an extra autoattack or spell required by the people killing them.</p><p>Now one on one in openworld PVP where players can actually have room to run away while healing themselves with an emergancy heal, I could see it being reduced/removed without affecting anything but say warfields where players are forced to be and once again, the healer green is really a red bullseye for anyone on the opposite team.</p><p>Its funny though that most of the people saying remove toughness are the people with classes as mains or alts that woud be able to one shot druids and non sorcerer mages if it was removed. What a coincidence huh, lol.</p><p>What takes more skill, hitting a stun/stifle/interupt and then assasinate, fusion, ect or working with other players to take down one player at a time on the other side to removes buffs/heals/or dps to allow the burning down of the harder to kill classes like inquisitors, templers, zerker, or sorcerer with thier wards.</p>

Shalori
08-26-2010, 03:46 PM
<p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thanks for the detailled answer. I know where you are coming from. But i still cant favor the 2 equipment sets idea. I dont know how others see it, but its allready too much work for me to play all my chars in PvE, let alone having to pvp enough to get all of em decked out for pvp aswell. Atleast for me, i cant talk for others, toughnes is destroying the game for me. Im forced to do something otherwise im gonna eat more 10k shadow steps / Assassinates and what else. It has worked for so long in the past, i dont understand how it cant suddenly.</p></blockquote><p>As a leather wearing priest in BG's, toughness is a must. Otherwise druids would be one shotted by anyone with a big nuke or melee attack and killed within 10 seconds by any one with quick spells or decent melee autoattack and a stun, stifle or interupt.  Druids do not have the high avoidance or mit of brawlers and once the emergancies are down are almost helpless for 8 to 10 minutes and the death prevents do nothing but add an extra autoattack or spell required by the people killing them.</p><p>Now one one one in openworld PVP where players can actually have room to run away while healing themselves withan emergancy heal, I could see it being reduced/removed without affecting anything but say warfields where players are forced to be and once again, the healer green is really a red bullseye for anyone on the opposite team.</p></blockquote><p>As a leather wearing priest, in BG's or open world PVP toughness needs to be nerfed. Sorry Oakum, but wardens especially need the nerf also due in part with your immunity to knockback.</p><p>There is no way a healer should live with a x2 smacking them around and that is what I have easily been able to do in Smugglers. I have seen a x3 try to take down Kaily on her own and FAIL terribly. Furies power consumption at least allows a faster death, but I've witnessed wardens stay up for 20 minutes plus in open world with no signs of dying as 6+ people try to burn them.</p><p>Toughness needs adjusting dramatically, or removed completely.</p>

Olihin
08-26-2010, 04:05 PM
<p><span ><p><span style="font-size: small;">Greetings,</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">A few changes are coming to the game.  </span></p><ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">Bow damage changes, damage increased.</span><ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">Game change but will affect PvP.</span></li></ul></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">2 Handed Weapon changes, damage increased.</span><ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">Game change but will affect PvP.</span></li></ul></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">Mutilation procs will no longer be dispelled.</span><ul><li><span style="font-size: small;">This will now allow players with the proc to focus their attacks and burn down a target.</span></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">The duration of the proc is 10 seconds. </span></li></ul></li><li><span style="font-size: small;">New weapons with higher dps bonus are being considered for future.  These will not have Mutilation on them, so the player will need to make the choice. </span></li></ul><p><span style="font-size: small;">Overall, the healing and toughness will remain as they are.  We need to monitor the changes to make sure we are not changing everything at once and masking the real issues which we hope are being addressed. If we find that the balance is still not there, we can easily change the toughness and lastly any healing that may still be a bit over the top.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></span></p>

Yimway
08-26-2010, 04:26 PM
<p>Pardon me as I've been out of pvp for a while.</p><p>Has mutilation been fixed so that if you stack the buff on someone it is cumulative?</p>

Olihin
08-26-2010, 04:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pardon me as I've been out of pvp for a while.</p><p>Has mutilation been fixed so that if you stack the buff on someone it is cumulative?</p></blockquote><p>That is how it is on live. </p><p>The problem is that it can be dispelled so you never really notice the effect.   The change is that players will no longer be able to dispel Mutilation.   This will allow players working together to focus their attacks and have a change to burn someone down before the 10 seconds pass.   This would require everyone in the group having Mutilate and that the proc lands at the right time. </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Gungo
08-26-2010, 04:41 PM
<p>I lost track of the changes you were talking about.</p><p>Will toughness still provide PVP crit mit?</p>

Yimway
08-26-2010, 04:42 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pardon me as I've been out of pvp for a while.</p><p>Has mutilation been fixed so that if you stack the buff on someone it is cumulative?</p></blockquote><p>That is how it is on live. </p><p>The problem is that it can be dispelled so you never really notice the effect.   The change is that players will no longer be able to dispel Mutilation.   This will allow players working together to focus their attacks and have a change to burn someone down before the 10 seconds pass.   This would require everyone in the group having Mutilate and that the proc lands at the right time. </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>If the effect does not stack and is not cumulative, regardless of dispelling, I don't think you've got something workable yet.</p>

Olihin
08-26-2010, 04:44 PM
<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I lost track of the changes you were talking about.</p><p>Will toughness still provide PVP crit mit?</p></blockquote><p>Yes.  1.5 PvP Critical Mitigation for every 1% of Toughness is the formula. </p><p>note: I get lost posting on both BG and here as well.  /sigh</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Olihin
08-26-2010, 04:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pardon me as I've been out of pvp for a while.</p><p>Has mutilation been fixed so that if you stack the buff on someone it is cumulative?</p></blockquote><p>That is how it is on live. </p><p>The problem is that it can be dispelled so you never really notice the effect.   The change is that players will no longer be able to dispel Mutilation.   This will allow players working together to focus their attacks and have a change to burn someone down before the 10 seconds pass.   This would require everyone in the group having Mutilate and that the proc lands at the right time. </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>If the effect does not stack and is not cumulative, regardless of dispelling, I don't think you've got something workable yet.</p></blockquote><p>I am not sure how you are confused...</p><p>Mutilate currently:</p><ul><li>Single player can proc 15%</li><li>If fighter can proc 15% + 10% Mangle</li><li>Single player cannot stack, but has a higher chance to proc the more items with it they have. </li><li>Group players CAN stack and it adds up to -100% healing received.</li><li>Can be dispelled.<ul><li>This is why it seems like it does nothing currently.  </li></ul></li></ul><p>Mutilate change:</p><ul><li>Single player can proc 15%</li><li>If fighter can proc 15% + 10% Mangle</li><li>Single player cannot stack, but has a higher chance to proc the more items with it they have. </li><li>Group players CAN stack and it adds up to -100% healing received.</li><li>CAN'T be dispelled.<ul><li>Now you will actually notice the stacking and even single player will notice a 1-25% reduction in the healing effectiveness of their target.  </li></ul></li></ul><p>I should post this on the BG forums as well just to avoid repetition...LOL</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Oakum
08-26-2010, 05:06 PM
<p><cite>Shalori wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><p>As a leather wearing priest, in BG's or open world PVP toughness needs to be nerfed. Sorry Oakum, but wardens especially need the nerf also due in part with your immunity to knockback.</p><p>There is no way a healer should live with a x2 smacking them around and that is what I have easily been able to do in Smugglers. I have seen a x3 try to take down Kaily on her own and FAIL terribly. Furies power consumption at least allows a faster death, but I've witnessed wardens stay up for 20 minutes plus in open world with no signs of dying as 6+ people try to burn them.</p><p>Toughness needs adjusting dramatically, or removed completely.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, actually, we lost the immunity to knockback when SF came out on Sandstorm when they also removed the 2 second knockdown proc, defense bonus, and made it a hate dehate proc with an extra shield block chance that only helps a tank with a very high shield block in the first place.  Sandstorm is almost useless to a pvping warden now, so much for PVP not affecting PVE huh? They also removed the immunity from knockback from our aa spell a long time before that, probably to benefit pvp then too. They also made our crit mit buff not work for PVP crit mit. But its good when the drushk ring procs the stoneskin a lot.</p><p>The good dps can burn me down, especially with a power draining class involved rather easy once my 10 second 10 min reuse damage imunity is gone along with my the emergancy heals. Throw in an assasinate, fusion ect and I die real quick sometimes if I dont get lucky with the ring or my every 15 second cure spell healing me from when it cures.</p><p>I get knocked back quite often, lol.  I had to buy a pvp mount so I could survive the fall off of the center tower rather then wear a no stat safefall cloak, lol.</p>

Yimway
08-26-2010, 05:53 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>Group players CAN stack and it adds up to -100% healing received.</li></ul><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>That was my orriginal question, as healing thru a single maintained mutilation effect is, well, yawn.</p><p>I'll have to wait and see how the -100% is applied, as in if I stack enough potency can I still heal thru it, etc.</p>

Ralpmet
08-26-2010, 07:27 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>Group players CAN stack and it adds up to -100% healing received.</li></ul><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>That was my orriginal question, as healing thru a single maintained mutilation effect is, well, yawn.</p><p>I'll have to wait and see how the -100% is applied, <strong>as in if I stack enough potency can I still heal thru it, </strong>etc.</p></blockquote><p>I never even thought about how potency would play into this, this might not even be that big of a nerf lol.</p>

Toxicz
08-26-2010, 07:39 PM
<p>My hopes for pvp in this game are dwindling.</p>

Jeht
08-26-2010, 08:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My hopes for pvp in this game are dwindling.</p></blockquote><p>qfe</p>

nostra
08-27-2010, 10:51 AM
<p>+1 to support the removal/lowering of toughness so people can die again.</p><p>Nostrathalas</p>

EndevorX
08-27-2010, 12:55 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I lost track of the changes you were talking about.</p><p>Will toughness still provide PVP crit mit?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Yes.  1.5 PvP Critical Mitigation for every 1% of Toughness is the formula. </span></p><p>note: I get lost posting on both BG and here as well.  /sigh</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Why is this not the case for lower level players?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">LVL 35+ lowbies with 25% damage mitigation is SO ridiculously obscene it just DOES NOT make sense.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Lowbies have nothing next to the critical chance or critical bonus values to even warrant such an unacceptable rise in longevity and near annihilation of offensive capability.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">i.e. Look in the thread </span><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=484420"><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em><strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">I'd like an explanation</span></strong></em></span></a></span>.</p>

Brynhild
08-27-2010, 06:21 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>Group players CAN stack and it adds up to -100% healing received.</li></ul><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>That was my orriginal question, as healing thru a single maintained mutilation effect is, well, yawn.</p><p>I'll have to wait and see how the -100% is applied, <strong>as in if I stack enough potency can I still heal thru it, </strong>etc.</p></blockquote><p>I never even thought about how potency would play into this, this might not even be that big of a nerf lol.</p></blockquote><p>This is BS.. nothing should be able to reduce healing by 100% . Doing this will see no healers anywhere in BG any more.</p><p>Trust me on this one.  If someone casts a heal and it does NOTHING because it's reduced by 100%..</p><p>Unless the 100% means 50% like eq2 is famous for..</p><p>Also Toughness should be 12 crit mit per 1% of toughness, and toughness damage reduction capped at 10% so we have 10% DR and 120% crit mit..</p><p>Doing what you are doing is going to make it everscout again..</p>

Xiotia
08-27-2010, 06:37 PM
<p>Yeah I'm not sure about this either. The only time I'm not able to burn through a healer is if they have a ton of AA. Making them less effective is probably a bad move. But I'll sustain my judgment till I see it in action. </p>

Nighrbringer
08-27-2010, 11:07 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Forebian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eliminate toughness for everyone but cloth-wearers.</p><p>I get stun-locked and dead in less than 3 seconds on a regular basis. Without toughness my toon would fall over dead at the sight of an assassin.</p><p>(this was a tongue-in-cheek comment)</p></blockquote><p>Are you serious: sorcerers have = mitigation to well geared plate tanks and on top of that regenerating wards that reduce damage further.  1:1 a well geared sorcerer can mitigate more damge than an = geared guardian.</p></blockquote><p>Sorcerers are not the only cloth wearers.</p><p>Summoners have the mitigation of a wet napkin.</p>

Phineus
08-27-2010, 11:42 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp armor actually took time, effort and skill to achieve; there would be no issue with pve armor becoming obsolete.  The answer to this problem should not have been nerfing our choice of armor; but should have been- what can be done to balance the quality of pvp gear with the effort it takes to aquire it.</p></blockquote><p> I thought at the beginning of tso the token requirments were right in line with what I was thinking. It took me 2 months to get 1 piece but overachievers like cesium and abel had almost a full set in the same amount of time. The only people it hurt was the dedicated exiled raid guild but as they took the lead in raiding it seemed moot. Im not sure who complained and got this system nerfed but thats what happened. I applaud the devs efforts to improve the game especially when the players ask for things that bite them in the butt in the end(wtb real fame back). I have pvpd off an on since 2 days after launch. I like a lot of things about the current pvp system. Some things bug me a little but only the toughness seems to be broken. My major two complaints were miracles and evaccing in pvp. Writ givers caused lag and that was also addressed. So the three things that bothered me the most were fixed.</p>

Olihin
08-30-2010, 03:24 PM
<p>Greetings,</p><p>In regards to pricing of items on vendors.  The prices are not 300+ tokens anymore since I believe everyone is smart enough to call me on it should Battleground vendors and Open PvP vendors differed drastically.   </p><p>At this time the items are about average 90 tokens + coin on BGs, and 150 tokens + status in PvP.   If I priced them at 350 or so like before, then we would have no one joining us in Open PvP since the BGs would be the easiest and most convenient way to get your armor.   As mentioned before, there will not be any items added to Open PvP that is also not added to the BG vendors.   So pricing items how it being done currently is in your best interest.  </p><p>I have to look at the overall health of the server and pricing items way to high or putting crazy restrictions on them would not be consistent and looked at fairly by you.  The hope is to get fame working and other in game fun activities set to make your time more enjoyable.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Thinwizzy
08-30-2010, 03:29 PM
<p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p>

Toxicz
08-30-2010, 03:51 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>WF's are nothing more than a GIANT bg...People go there to "complete the objective" of killing the statues and then once thats done, they logout/go afk</p>

Olihin
08-30-2010, 04:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</p><p>There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </p><p>KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Kota
08-30-2010, 04:03 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</p><p>There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </p><p>KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>i keep saying this.  no one listens.</p>

Olihin
08-30-2010, 04:04 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>WF's are nothing more than a GIANT bg...People go there to "complete the objective" of killing the statues and then once thats done, they logout/go afk</p></blockquote><p>We are changing the AFK problem.   You will now have a 60 second immunity timer only in all but a few zones.  In addition, the tiered WFs will allow those that wish to participate the chance to do so within a set of tiers that they can feel like they are doing something productive.  </p><p>Each change will not be a positive change for everyone.   Warfields target a large audience but they may not affect you and some of your friends.   Perhaps in time we will be able to add something that you will enjoy.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Thinwizzy
08-30-2010, 05:21 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</p><p>There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </p><p>KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>To ignore the things that this server did right in the past, is to do this game a great disservice.  If you read what I wrote, you will notice that I did not ask for the game to be returned to those times, although I personally would enjoy that immensely.</p><p>We must look at the things in the past that helped pvp and encouraged guild and faction rivalries, for this will make pvp more fun and rewarding than any warfield or writ could possibly do.  A large amount of people came to this server because blue servers where boring.  We wanted to use our gear we had earned to fight people with.  We wanted some risk when we left the cities to go do an instance or dungeon.  We wanted to be required to stay alert at all time.  We wanted to be able to block our rivals from accomplishing their goals that would make them a stronger force.</p><p>There where many things that made the KoS/EoF era amazing.  There was no instant travel.  No bells that took you to any zone.  No guild hall banners that could port your entire group or raid right next to the zone you where going to.  No auto-connecting flight paths that kept you out of harm's way at landing zones along your route.  If you wanted to go somewhere, you had to be ready to fight at any given moment.  This is one thing that made our server vastly different.  Doing an instance was more than putting together a group that could finish it as fast as possible; it was putting together a group you could trust to get to the instance and work together.  That is gone now.  Once upon a time, if you had a rival guild that was going to do a raid instance, you had the opportunity to try to stop them.  Now, with guild banners, this is forever gone.</p><p>It used to take time and effort to get your full set of pvp gear.  Now, a full set can be gotten in just a couple of weeks.  If you saw someone wearing a full set of pvp gear, you know they had worked hard to get it.  Now, seeing someone without a full set is uncommon.</p><p>PvE content used to fuel some amazing fights and rivalries.  One example of this is the Claymore questline from KoS.  This was a great questline that took your group through different zones and dungeons.  Many groups from all factions where after the same updates as yours.  This lead to alot of entertaining fights in the depths of SoS or PoA.  This lead to cross faction rivalries and victory over your rivals was reward enough, token gain was not even necessary in those cases.  The contested raid mobs in this era where the center of many epic fights.  Guild vs guild fights that lasted hours and days.  Fights that where over potential gear drops that would make one or two people better equipped to fight their rival faction.  If this gear was available for purchase from a merchant for a few faction points or tokens, that would have lead to many of these players growing disinterested.  This is the state of the server now, many players are growing disinterested because rewards are too easy to come by, and the gear that is worked hard for is not usable for the thing that we love.</p><p>Removing the usablity of pve gear in pvp combat removes motivation to aquire the gear.  Forcing people into the same basic pvp gear removes the goal of becoming the best geared and dominent force possible.  Removing this motivation and goal in turn leads to many people becoming bored with the game, which leads to where we are now.</p><p>A healthy, thriving pvp server would be much like a healthy ecosystem.  You need top geared, dominant predators.  You need group hunting and solo hunting.  There needs to be those who only pvp as a defense.  There needs to be zergers and leechers.  The current pvp reward and gear system has altered this balance tragically.  The mass pvp method is now rewarded above all others.  Group vs group fights have turned into a simple game of who can outnumber who.  This is a major turn off to your solo and group hunters.  Those who find no enjoyment wearing the same gear as everyone else, those who find no joy in the mass zerg mentality, those who no longer have their reasons for getting the best possible gear and rewards for their character; are slowly lowering their play time or quitting altogether.  This leaves the server being overrun with what would be the scavengers of the ecosystem.  All these different play styles are important to the server.  When you remove one, no matter how big or small, the results can be tragic.</p><p>We do understand that the game changes over time.  We do understand that we have new AA abilities and new class abilities.  However, we do not understand why the things that made this game so great, are being disregarded and treated as a plague.  We are not expecting a roll back to 2006.  However, there is much that can be learned from that time.  Things such as why we fought, what we fought for, and our motivation to make our character the best possible.</p>

Neskonlith
08-30-2010, 05:45 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</p><p>There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </p><p>KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>i keep saying this.  no one listens.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Many listen, but some appear to spam the misleading old yarns of the halcyon days of yore over and over - perhaps in hopes that somehow through repetition everyone else will be mezmerized into believing there's absolutely no fun at all to be found in today's PVP, despite all the laughter in groups and wide participation by the casuals.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Looking forward to trying out the upcoming changes!</span></p>

Stuckx
08-30-2010, 06:14 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</p><p>There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </p><p>KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>To ignore the things that this server did right in the past, is to do this game a great disservice.  If you read what I wrote, you will notice that I did not ask for the game to be returned to those times, although I personally would enjoy that immensely.</p><p>We must look at the things in the past that helped pvp and encouraged guild and faction rivalries, for this will make pvp more fun and rewarding than any warfield or writ could possibly do.  A large amount of people came to this server because blue servers where boring.  We wanted to use our gear we had earned to fight people with.  We wanted some risk when we left the cities to go do an instance or dungeon.  We wanted to be required to stay alert at all time.  We wanted to be able to block our rivals from accomplishing their goals that would make them a stronger force.</p><p>There where many things that made the KoS/EoF era amazing.  There was no instant travel.  No bells that took you to any zone.  No guild hall banners that could port your entire group or raid right next to the zone you where going to.  No auto-connecting flight paths that kept you out of harm's way at landing zones along your route.  If you wanted to go somewhere, you had to be ready to fight at any given moment.  This is one thing that made our server vastly different.  Doing an instance was more than putting together a group that could finish it as fast as possible; it was putting together a group you could trust to get to the instance and work together.  That is gone now.  Once upon a time, if you had a rival guild that was going to do a raid instance, you had the opportunity to try to stop them.  Now, with guild banners, this is forever gone.</p><p>It used to take time and effort to get your full set of pvp gear.  Now, a full set can be gotten in just a couple of weeks.  If you saw someone wearing a full set of pvp gear, you know they had worked hard to get it.  Now, seeing someone without a full set is uncommon.</p><p>PvE content used to fuel some amazing fights and rivalries.  One example of this is the Claymore questline from KoS.  This was a great questline that took your group through different zones and dungeons.  Many groups from all factions where after the same updates as yours.  This lead to alot of entertaining fights in the depths of SoS or PoA.  This lead to cross faction rivalries and victory over your rivals was reward enough, token gain was not even necessary in those cases.  The contested raid mobs in this era where the center of many epic fights.  Guild vs guild fights that lasted hours and days.  Fights that where over potential gear drops that would make one or two people better equipped to fight their rival faction.  If this gear was available for purchase from a merchant for a few faction points or tokens, that would have lead to many of these players growing disinterested.  This is the state of the server now, many players are growing disinterested because rewards are too easy to come by, and the gear that is worked hard for is not usable for the thing that we love.</p><p>Removing the usablity of pve gear in pvp combat removes motivation to aquire the gear.  Forcing people into the same basic pvp gear removes the goal of becoming the best geared and dominent force possible.  Removing this motivation and goal in turn leads to many people becoming bored with the game, which leads to where we are now.</p><p>A healthy, thriving pvp server would be much like a healthy ecosystem.  You need top geared, dominant predators.  You need group hunting and solo hunting.  There needs to be those who only pvp as a defense.  There needs to be zergers and leechers.  The current pvp reward and gear system has altered this balance tragically.  The mass pvp method is now rewarded above all others.  Group vs group fights have turned into a simple game of who can outnumber who.  This is a major turn off to your solo and group hunters.  Those who find no enjoyment wearing the same gear as everyone else, those who find no joy in the mass zerg mentality, those who no longer have their reasons for getting the best possible gear and rewards for their character; are slowly lowering their play time or quitting altogether.  This leaves the server being overrun with what would be the scavengers of the ecosystem.  All these different play styles are important to the server.  When you remove one, no matter how big or small, the results can be tragic.</p><p>We do understand that the game changes over time.  We do understand that we have new AA abilities and new class abilities.  However, we do not understand why the things that made this game so great, are being disregarded and treated as a plague.  We are not expecting a roll back to 2006.  However, there is much that can be learned from that time.  Things such as why we fought, what we fought for, and our motivation to make our character the best possible.</p></blockquote><p>QFE.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
08-30-2010, 07:38 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</p><p>There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </p><p>KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>To ignore the things that this server did right in the past, is to do this game a great disservice.  If you read what I wrote, you will notice that I did not ask for the game to be returned to those times, although I personally would enjoy that immensely.</p><p>We must look at the things in the past that helped pvp and encouraged guild and faction rivalries, for this will make pvp more fun and rewarding than any warfield or writ could possibly do.  A large amount of people came to this server because blue servers where boring.  We wanted to use our gear we had earned to fight people with.  We wanted some risk when we left the cities to go do an instance or dungeon.  We wanted to be required to stay alert at all time.  We wanted to be able to block our rivals from accomplishing their goals that would make them a stronger force.</p><p>There where many things that made the KoS/EoF era amazing.  There was no instant travel.  No bells that took you to any zone.  No guild hall banners that could port your entire group or raid right next to the zone you where going to.  No auto-connecting flight paths that kept you out of harm's way at landing zones along your route.  If you wanted to go somewhere, you had to be ready to fight at any given moment.  This is one thing that made our server vastly different.  Doing an instance was more than putting together a group that could finish it as fast as possible; it was putting together a group you could trust to get to the instance and work together.  That is gone now.  Once upon a time, if you had a rival guild that was going to do a raid instance, you had the opportunity to try to stop them.  Now, with guild banners, this is forever gone.</p><p>It used to take time and effort to get your full set of pvp gear.  Now, a full set can be gotten in just a couple of weeks.  If you saw someone wearing a full set of pvp gear, you know they had worked hard to get it.  Now, seeing someone without a full set is uncommon.</p><p>PvE content used to fuel some amazing fights and rivalries.  One example of this is the Claymore questline from KoS.  This was a great questline that took your group through different zones and dungeons.  Many groups from all factions where after the same updates as yours.  This lead to alot of entertaining fights in the depths of SoS or PoA.  This lead to cross faction rivalries and victory over your rivals was reward enough, token gain was not even necessary in those cases.  The contested raid mobs in this era where the center of many epic fights.  Guild vs guild fights that lasted hours and days.  Fights that where over potential gear drops that would make one or two people better equipped to fight their rival faction.  If this gear was available for purchase from a merchant for a few faction points or tokens, that would have lead to many of these players growing disinterested.  This is the state of the server now, many players are growing disinterested because rewards are too easy to come by, and the gear that is worked hard for is not usable for the thing that we love.</p><p>Removing the usablity of pve gear in pvp combat removes motivation to aquire the gear.  Forcing people into the same basic pvp gear removes the goal of becoming the best geared and dominent force possible.  Removing this motivation and goal in turn leads to many people becoming bored with the game, which leads to where we are now.</p><p>A healthy, thriving pvp server would be much like a healthy ecosystem.  You need top geared, dominant predators.  You need group hunting and solo hunting.  There needs to be those who only pvp as a defense.  There needs to be zergers and leechers.  The current pvp reward and gear system has altered this balance tragically.  The mass pvp method is now rewarded above all others.  Group vs group fights have turned into a simple game of who can outnumber who.  This is a major turn off to your solo and group hunters.  Those who find no enjoyment wearing the same gear as everyone else, those who find no joy in the mass zerg mentality, those who no longer have their reasons for getting the best possible gear and rewards for their character; are slowly lowering their play time or quitting altogether.  This leaves the server being overrun with what would be the scavengers of the ecosystem.  All these different play styles are important to the server.  When you remove one, no matter how big or small, the results can be tragic.</p><p>We do understand that the game changes over time.  We do understand that we have new AA abilities and new class abilities.  However, we do not understand why the things that made this game so great, are being disregarded and treated as a plague.  We are not expecting a roll back to 2006.  However, there is much that can be learned from that time.  Things such as why we fought, what we fought for, and our motivation to make our character the best possible.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p>

BlueEternal
08-30-2010, 07:45 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</p><p>There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </p><p>KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>To ignore the things that this server did right in the past, is to do this game a great disservice.  If you read what I wrote, you will notice that I did not ask for the game to be returned to those times, although I personally would enjoy that immensely.</p><p>We must look at the things in the past that helped pvp and encouraged guild and faction rivalries, for this will make pvp more fun and rewarding than any warfield or writ could possibly do.  A large amount of people came to this server because blue servers where boring.  We wanted to use our gear we had earned to fight people with.  We wanted some risk when we left the cities to go do an instance or dungeon.  We wanted to be required to stay alert at all time.  We wanted to be able to block our rivals from accomplishing their goals that would make them a stronger force.</p><p>There where many things that made the KoS/EoF era amazing.  There was no instant travel.  No bells that took you to any zone.  No guild hall banners that could port your entire group or raid right next to the zone you where going to.  No auto-connecting flight paths that kept you out of harm's way at landing zones along your route.  If you wanted to go somewhere, you had to be ready to fight at any given moment.  This is one thing that made our server vastly different.  Doing an instance was more than putting together a group that could finish it as fast as possible; it was putting together a group you could trust to get to the instance and work together.  That is gone now.  Once upon a time, if you had a rival guild that was going to do a raid instance, you had the opportunity to try to stop them.  Now, with guild banners, this is forever gone.</p><p>It used to take time and effort to get your full set of pvp gear.  Now, a full set can be gotten in just a couple of weeks.  If you saw someone wearing a full set of pvp gear, you know they had worked hard to get it.  Now, seeing someone without a full set is uncommon.</p><p>PvE content used to fuel some amazing fights and rivalries.  One example of this is the Claymore questline from KoS.  This was a great questline that took your group through different zones and dungeons.  Many groups from all factions where after the same updates as yours.  This lead to alot of entertaining fights in the depths of SoS or PoA.  This lead to cross faction rivalries and victory over your rivals was reward enough, token gain was not even necessary in those cases.  The contested raid mobs in this era where the center of many epic fights.  Guild vs guild fights that lasted hours and days.  Fights that where over potential gear drops that would make one or two people better equipped to fight their rival faction.  If this gear was available for purchase from a merchant for a few faction points or tokens, that would have lead to many of these players growing disinterested.  This is the state of the server now, many players are growing disinterested because rewards are too easy to come by, and the gear that is worked hard for is not usable for the thing that we love.</p><p>Removing the usablity of pve gear in pvp combat removes motivation to aquire the gear.  Forcing people into the same basic pvp gear removes the goal of becoming the best geared and dominent force possible.  Removing this motivation and goal in turn leads to many people becoming bored with the game, which leads to where we are now.</p><p>A healthy, thriving pvp server would be much like a healthy ecosystem.  You need top geared, dominant predators.  You need group hunting and solo hunting.  There needs to be those who only pvp as a defense.  There needs to be zergers and leechers.  The current pvp reward and gear system has altered this balance tragically.  The mass pvp method is now rewarded above all others.  Group vs group fights have turned into a simple game of who can outnumber who.  This is a major turn off to your solo and group hunters.  Those who find no enjoyment wearing the same gear as everyone else, those who find no joy in the mass zerg mentality, those who no longer have their reasons for getting the best possible gear and rewards for their character; are slowly lowering their play time or quitting altogether.  This leaves the server being overrun with what would be the scavengers of the ecosystem.  All these different play styles are important to the server.  When you remove one, no matter how big or small, the results can be tragic.</p><p>We do understand that the game changes over time.  We do understand that we have new AA abilities and new class abilities.  However, we do not understand why the things that made this game so great, are being disregarded and treated as a plague.  We are not expecting a roll back to 2006.  However, there is much that can be learned from that time.  Things such as why we fought, what we fought for, and our motivation to make our character the best possible.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p></blockquote><p>+2</p>

Azol
08-31-2010, 04:31 AM
<p><cite>nostra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>+1 to support the removal/lowering of toughness so <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">people</span> <em>healers and crusaders</em> can die again.</p></blockquote><p>Fixed it for you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>And I wouldn't quote the whole Thinwizzy's post to keep the thread nice and clean, but I agree with what he wrote 100%.</p><p><strong><p><cite>Thinwizzy wrote:</cite></p></strong></p><blockquote><p>We are not expecting a roll back to 2006.  However, there is much that can be learned from that time. Things such as why we fought, what we fought for, and our motivation to make our character the best possible.</p></blockquote>

PeaSy1
08-31-2010, 06:29 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</p><p>There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </p><p>KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>To ignore the things that this server did right in the past, is to do this game a great disservice.  If you read what I wrote, you will notice that I did not ask for the game to be returned to those times, although I personally would enjoy that immensely.</p><p>We must look at the things in the past that helped pvp and encouraged guild and faction rivalries, for this will make pvp more fun and rewarding than any warfield or writ could possibly do.  A large amount of people came to this server because blue servers where boring.  We wanted to use our gear we had earned to fight people with.  We wanted some risk when we left the cities to go do an instance or dungeon.  We wanted to be required to stay alert at all time.  We wanted to be able to block our rivals from accomplishing their goals that would make them a stronger force.</p><p>There where many things that made the KoS/EoF era amazing.  There was no instant travel.  No bells that took you to any zone.  No guild hall banners that could port your entire group or raid right next to the zone you where going to.  No auto-connecting flight paths that kept you out of harm's way at landing zones along your route.  If you wanted to go somewhere, you had to be ready to fight at any given moment.  This is one thing that made our server vastly different.  Doing an instance was more than putting together a group that could finish it as fast as possible; it was putting together a group you could trust to get to the instance and work together.  That is gone now.  Once upon a time, if you had a rival guild that was going to do a raid instance, you had the opportunity to try to stop them.  Now, with guild banners, this is forever gone.</p><p>It used to take time and effort to get your full set of pvp gear.  Now, a full set can be gotten in just a couple of weeks.  If you saw someone wearing a full set of pvp gear, you know they had worked hard to get it.  Now, seeing someone without a full set is uncommon.</p><p>PvE content used to fuel some amazing fights and rivalries.  One example of this is the Claymore questline from KoS.  This was a great questline that took your group through different zones and dungeons.  Many groups from all factions where after the same updates as yours.  This lead to alot of entertaining fights in the depths of SoS or PoA.  This lead to cross faction rivalries and victory over your rivals was reward enough, token gain was not even necessary in those cases.  The contested raid mobs in this era where the center of many epic fights.  Guild vs guild fights that lasted hours and days.  Fights that where over potential gear drops that would make one or two people better equipped to fight their rival faction.  If this gear was available for purchase from a merchant for a few faction points or tokens, that would have lead to many of these players growing disinterested.  This is the state of the server now, many players are growing disinterested because rewards are too easy to come by, and the gear that is worked hard for is not usable for the thing that we love.</p><p>Removing the usablity of pve gear in pvp combat removes motivation to aquire the gear.  Forcing people into the same basic pvp gear removes the goal of becoming the best geared and dominent force possible.  Removing this motivation and goal in turn leads to many people becoming bored with the game, which leads to where we are now.</p><p>A healthy, thriving pvp server would be much like a healthy ecosystem.  You need top geared, dominant predators.  You need group hunting and solo hunting.  There needs to be those who only pvp as a defense.  There needs to be zergers and leechers.  The current pvp reward and gear system has altered this balance tragically.  The mass pvp method is now rewarded above all others.  Group vs group fights have turned into a simple game of who can outnumber who.  This is a major turn off to your solo and group hunters.  Those who find no enjoyment wearing the same gear as everyone else, those who find no joy in the mass zerg mentality, those who no longer have their reasons for getting the best possible gear and rewards for their character; are slowly lowering their play time or quitting altogether.  This leaves the server being overrun with what would be the scavengers of the ecosystem.  All these different play styles are important to the server.  When you remove one, no matter how big or small, the results can be tragic.</p><p>We do understand that the game changes over time.  We do understand that we have new AA abilities and new class abilities.  However, we do not understand why the things that made this game so great, are being disregarded and treated as a plague.  We are not expecting a roll back to 2006.  However, there is much that can be learned from that time.  Things such as why we fought, what we fought for, and our motivation to make our character the best possible.</p></blockquote><p>The thought of guild rivalries is a great thought and all but with the current way factions are set up it would be an absolute joke....when these rivalries existed their were competitive guilds in all factions as well as the exiled imbalance. But that wouldnt work at this point unless their was a mass crossing to fp unless your expecting insurrection to pop out of whatever hole they fell into it would create a massive discrepancy to the likes of which they already nerfed warfield rewards cause fp was getting wrecked. </p><p>But as far as toughness and PVE gear goes if toughness is to stay for good (like it seems) putting a % of toughness on raid gear at a lower % in comparison might be something to look into but in contrast put a amount of pve crit mit on pvp gear at a ratio identical to pvp/pve toughness.</p><p>Also the multi bell system was a good change but the [Removed for Content] flags need to go imo a change like that i might actively pvp again.</p>

Sprin
08-31-2010, 11:49 PM
<p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>. People do not pvp all day on the server and they do not do pve all day. We do a mix of both and some like to pvp more and some like to pve more, Ohilin should respect that.</p></blockquote><p>He / they did.. its called BG's.. go raid on a blue server and you can swap out for BG gear and [Removed for Content] pwn everyone all day long in that gear... and then go fight scripted mobs and WTFpwn them in your raid gear..</p><p>You play on a PVP server... PVP gear SHOULD be best for PVP... </p><p>Go to a blue server forum and say that BG gear should be equal to raid gear for raid content... see what that gets you... thats what you are doing here.. on a PVP server and saying PVP gear shouldn't be best for PVP'n on a PVP server...</p><p>And oh, you raiders always seem to forget the far superior procs on raid gear, and the far superior EVERYTHING ELSE besides toughness.... HUGE potency boosts (not <em>PVE only</em> I might add, much unlike the PVP gear PVP potency)...</p><p>oh..and those pesky little Red adorns that PVP'rs dont get... you know the ones that give you HUGE advantages in PVP... I guess you forgot to mention those...   I'll do it for you...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Extra death prevents</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">group wide DPS / crit bonus, etc buffs that PVP'rs are limited to 1 or 2 people at most from concentration slots</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">extra procs to reactive heals</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">huge % boosts to heals / damage spells</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">huge reuse decreases in all sorts of spells / buffs</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">huge boosts to HP buffs</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">BONUS HP for buffs</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">HUGE crit bonus increases</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">extra trigger chances to reactive buffs (stoneskins, damage procs, heal procs etc)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">extra "benefits" given to temp buffs / buffs not avail to anyone but red gear wearers (IE: mitigation increases, rev sickness removal, damage reduction, potency boosts, group casting speed boosts, defensive stats)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC</span></p><p>NONE of which is restriced in PVP use... yet PVP'rs dont get those items... and they ALL work in PVP... and give MASSIVE advantages... imagine that, you guys aren't crying about those...</p><p>Not to mention the fact that SOME (very few) of these WERE available to PVP'rs in gear from ROK / TSO... but since PVP gear is cookie cutter cut and paste same accross the board for all classes now, are no longer available...</p>

nostra
09-01-2010, 10:53 AM
+1 Thinwizzy's quote. Sums up my feelings about pvp, great post. Nos

Darkor
09-01-2010, 03:57 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </p></blockquote><p>We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</p><p>There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </p><p>KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>To ignore the things that this server did right in the past, is to do this game a great disservice.  If you read what I wrote, you will notice that I did not ask for the game to be returned to those times, although I personally would enjoy that immensely.</p><p>We must look at the things in the past that helped pvp and encouraged guild and faction rivalries, for this will make pvp more fun and rewarding than any warfield or writ could possibly do.  A large amount of people came to this server because blue servers where boring.  We wanted to use our gear we had earned to fight people with.  We wanted some risk when we left the cities to go do an instance or dungeon.  We wanted to be required to stay alert at all time.  We wanted to be able to block our rivals from accomplishing their goals that would make them a stronger force.</p><p>There where many things that made the KoS/EoF era amazing.  There was no instant travel.  No bells that took you to any zone.  No guild hall banners that could port your entire group or raid right next to the zone you where going to.  No auto-connecting flight paths that kept you out of harm's way at landing zones along your route.  If you wanted to go somewhere, you had to be ready to fight at any given moment.  This is one thing that made our server vastly different.  Doing an instance was more than putting together a group that could finish it as fast as possible; it was putting together a group you could trust to get to the instance and work together.  That is gone now.  Once upon a time, if you had a rival guild that was going to do a raid instance, you had the opportunity to try to stop them.  Now, with guild banners, this is forever gone.</p><p>It used to take time and effort to get your full set of pvp gear.  Now, a full set can be gotten in just a couple of weeks.  If you saw someone wearing a full set of pvp gear, you know they had worked hard to get it.  Now, seeing someone without a full set is uncommon.</p><p>PvE content used to fuel some amazing fights and rivalries.  One example of this is the Claymore questline from KoS.  This was a great questline that took your group through different zones and dungeons.  Many groups from all factions where after the same updates as yours.  This lead to alot of entertaining fights in the depths of SoS or PoA.  This lead to cross faction rivalries and victory over your rivals was reward enough, token gain was not even necessary in those cases.  The contested raid mobs in this era where the center of many epic fights.  Guild vs guild fights that lasted hours and days.  Fights that where over potential gear drops that would make one or two people better equipped to fight their rival faction.  If this gear was available for purchase from a merchant for a few faction points or tokens, that would have lead to many of these players growing disinterested.  This is the state of the server now, many players are growing disinterested because rewards are too easy to come by, and the gear that is worked hard for is not usable for the thing that we love.</p><p>Removing the usablity of pve gear in pvp combat removes motivation to aquire the gear.  Forcing people into the same basic pvp gear removes the goal of becoming the best geared and dominent force possible.  Removing this motivation and goal in turn leads to many people becoming bored with the game, which leads to where we are now.</p><p>A healthy, thriving pvp server would be much like a healthy ecosystem.  You need top geared, dominant predators.  You need group hunting and solo hunting.  There needs to be those who only pvp as a defense.  There needs to be zergers and leechers.  The current pvp reward and gear system has altered this balance tragically.  The mass pvp method is now rewarded above all others.  Group vs group fights have turned into a simple game of who can outnumber who.  This is a major turn off to your solo and group hunters.  Those who find no enjoyment wearing the same gear as everyone else, those who find no joy in the mass zerg mentality, those who no longer have their reasons for getting the best possible gear and rewards for their character; are slowly lowering their play time or quitting altogether.  This leaves the server being overrun with what would be the scavengers of the ecosystem.  All these different play styles are important to the server.  When you remove one, no matter how big or small, the results can be tragic.</p><p>We do understand that the game changes over time.  We do understand that we have new AA abilities and new class abilities.  However, we do not understand why the things that made this game so great, are being disregarded and treated as a plague.  We are not expecting a roll back to 2006.  However, there is much that can be learned from that time.  Things such as why we fought, what we fought for, and our motivation to make our character the best possible.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p>

Bosconi
09-01-2010, 04:48 PM
<p><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><strong><em></em></strong></span></span></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em><div><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;">If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </span></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;">WF's are nothing more than a GIANT bg...People go there to "complete the objective" of killing the statues and then once thats done, they logout/go afk</span></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;">We are changing the AFK problem.   You will now have a 60 second immunity timer only in all but a few zones.  In addition, the tiered WFs will allow those that wish to participate the chance to do so within a set of tiers that they can feel like they are doing something productive.  </span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;">Each change will not be a positive change for everyone.   Warfields target a large audience but they may not affect you and some of your friends.   Perhaps in time we will be able to add something that you will enjoy.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;">Olihin</span></span></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">I'm sure you're aware, as I've mentioned it a bit, but a large part of the problem is that incentivizing warfields participation is currently a bit poor.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">The problem is that people stagnate once they gear out, and cyclical, near-infinitely rewarding systems are required for PvP stimulus.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">And yes, a proposal comparable to the above outline</span></span></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">, that many are supporting in Thinwizzy's post,</span></span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">equates to </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;">valuable, significant, and desirable contested content (group, x 2, x4, in dungeons, on overland continents, etc)</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">, which everyone has also been wanting for a long time.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">The things that will ASSUREDLY call the less active out to the field are the fame system and warfields victory/participation bonus revisions (items made <span style="color: #0000ff;"><strong>blue</strong></span> are covered already [crossing out isn't working for some reason] <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> ).</span></span></span></p><div><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">PvP Ranks</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Now for the classic fame system with 1 week reuse/30 sec casting toggle/reset from participating in the PvP rank establishment.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Also restrict fame gain while dead, to avoid greys leeching from mains to sell fame hits.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800000;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-style: normal;">Warfields Population/Lag/Commmunity Involvement</span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Then, distribute warfields relegated to tier-specific zones (see Part 1, Section C of the "</span></span></span><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=481953" target="_blank"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">EQ2's PvP Panacea</span></span></span></a><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">" thread in my signature).</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Those not in that particular tier wouldn't be able to affect warfields objectives.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Tier-specific zones could create a niche interest in each tier for nostalgic reasons. =]</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Simultaneous initiation for all warfields will ensure population/latency isn't an issue.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">Once that's done, warfields instances can have their population caps removed so that many aren't off-put from participating.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">It's no wonder that city PvP completely died down from the group vs group and raid vs raid experience that it was after warfields population caps were instated.</span></span></span></p></blockquote></div><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">1.) Warfields</span></span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> D. Reward systems must be revised - NO auto-granting tokens for getting flagged.  - 30 mins w/ the OLD writ poster reuse were worth 15 open world PvP tokens.  - Recent lists are now seemingly infinite, making the writ poster reuse of 5 mins no more efficient, or less efficient, than a writ poster reuse of 10 mins w/ a cap on the recent list.  - AFKers profit from doing NOTHING w/ warfields automatically issuing rewards. These are dead-weight leechers that might negatively impact zone performance, existing due to this flaw in warfields implementation.  - PvP writs completed during active warfields should reward double tokens. THIS would put the focus back on open world PvP & organization.  - Warfields victors should be given their choice of:  · 10% mount speed  · 20% in-combat runspeed  · 5 Crit Bonus  · 15 pet crit bonus  · 5% spell double attack  · 5% flurry  · 15% AOE auto attack  · +5 meters spell/combat art range  · 10% Reuse  · 20% Casting  · +50% Adv./Trade/AA XP (stacks w/ mentoring & potions)  · 30 DPS/Haste proc 2x/min (35 sec duration, stacks w/ all item procs)  · -10% resistability (combat art & spell applicable)  · Potion/Signet/Relic/PvP trinket/Tinkered item reuse HALVED (100% reduced) & failure chances removed  · Fear (5 sec duration, 30 m range, 1 min reuse, no dmg, 1 sec casting [unaffected by casting speed])  · 75% snare (10 sec duration, 30 m range, 1 min reuse, no dmg, 1 sec casting [unaffected by casting speed])  · Single group instance timer reset (usable ONCE a day on ONE instance; players can NOT enter an instance reset w/ this feature if they already have done so that day)  · Adornment extrication (usable ONCE biweekly, every 2 weeks, this would let a player remove an adornment from an item)  · Equipment liberator (usable ONCE monthly, this would let a player unattune 1 item)  - Warfields bonuses would last until that character logged off, or until the opposing faction won a warfields of that player's tier.</span></span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">  - Creating in-demand warfields victor effects, operable in PvE as well, will ensure the attraction to them is strong & consistent.</span></span></span></p></blockquote><div><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">If pvp combat was not terrible and broken, there would be no need for these other in game 'activities'.  If you want to help the health of the server, start looking at what made this server healthy in the first place, back in the KoS and EoF days. </span></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">We went back in time and looked, it was not fun as you think for everyone.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">There were a lot more complaints back then which led to what is currently available.  What made this server healthy in the first place is not the same for everyone.   We are doing what we can to bring back some of the fun and challenge.  The reality is that no matter what, some of us will never had it as hard as before with all the changes to the base game. A new base for PvP needs to be set before we start making it extra fun for those of us that consider things easy right now.  </span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">KoS and EoF did not have the level increase, spells and new AA to deal with.   We also have many other changes that have been made to the game that affect PvP.  The game has changed and PvP has changed as well.   What I ask is for feedback with the hope that you have thought about all that has changed and what we currently have in game.   We won't be going back to KoS or EoF because the game is no longer using those systems, that is truth.  </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Olihin</span></span></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To ignore the things that this server did right in the past, is to do this game a great disservice.  If you read what I wrote, you will notice that I did not ask for the game to be returned to those times, although I personally would enjoy that immensely.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">We must look at the things in the past that helped pvp and encouraged guild and faction rivalries, for this will make pvp more fun and rewarding than any warfield or writ could possibly do.  A large amount of people came to this server because blue servers where boring.  We wanted to use our gear we had earned to fight people with.  We wanted some risk when we left the cities to go do an instance or dungeon.  We wanted to be required to stay alert at all time.  We wanted to be able to block our rivals from accomplishing their goals that would make them a stronger force.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">There where many things that made the KoS/EoF era amazing.  There was no instant travel.  No bells that took you to any zone.  No guild hall banners that could port your entire group or raid right next to the zone you where going to.  No auto-connecting flight paths that kept you out of harm's way at landing zones along your route.  If you wanted to go somewhere, you had to be ready to fight at any given moment.  This is one thing that made our server vastly different.  Doing an instance was more than putting together a group that could finish it as fast as possible; it was putting together a group you could trust to get to the instance and work together.  That is gone now.  Once upon a time, if you had a rival guild that was going to do a raid instance, you had the opportunity to try to stop them.  Now, with guild banners, this is forever gone.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">It used to take time and effort to get your full set of pvp gear.  Now, a full set can be gotten in just a couple of weeks.  If you saw someone wearing a full set of pvp gear, you know they had worked hard to get it.  Now, seeing someone without a full set is uncommon.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">PvE content used to fuel some amazing fights and rivalries.  One example of this is the Claymore questline from KoS.  This was a great questline that took your group through different zones and dungeons.  Many groups from all factions where after the same updates as yours.  This lead to alot of entertaining fights in the depths of SoS or PoA.  This lead to cross faction rivalries and victory over your rivals was reward enough, token gain was not even necessary in those cases.  The contested raid mobs in this era where the center of many epic fights.  Guild vs guild fights that lasted hours and days.  Fights that where over potential gear drops that would make one or two people better equipped to fight their rival faction.  If this gear was available for purchase from a merchant for a few faction points or tokens, that would have lead to many of these players growing disinterested.  This is the state of the server now, many players are growing disinterested because rewards are too easy to come by, </span></span><span style="color: #ff00ff;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong>and the gear that is worked hard for is not usable for the thing that we love.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Removing the usablity of pve gear in pvp combat removes motivation to aquire the gear.  Forcing people into the same basic pvp gear removes the goal of becoming the best geared and dominent force possible.  Removing this motivation and goal in turn leads to many people becoming bored with the game, which leads to where we are now.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">A healthy, thriving pvp server would be much like a healthy ecosystem.  You need top geared, dominant predators.  You need group hunting and solo hunting.  There needs to be those who only pvp as a defense.  There needs to be zergers and leechers.  The current pvp reward and gear system has altered this balance tragically.  The mass pvp method is now rewarded above all others.  Group vs group fights have turned into a simple game of who can outnumber who.  This is a major turn off to your solo and group hunters.  Those who find no enjoyment wearing the same gear as everyone else, those who find no joy in the mass zerg mentality, those who no longer have their reasons for getting the best possible gear and rewards for their character; are slowly lowering their play time or quitting altogether.  This leaves the server being overrun with what would be the scavengers of the ecosystem.  All these different play styles are important to the server.  When you remove one, no matter how big or small, the results can be tragic.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">We do understand that the game changes over time.  We do understand that we have new AA abilities and new class abilities.  However, we do not understand why the things that made this game so great, are being disregarded and treated as a plague.  We are not expecting a roll back to 2006.  However, there is much that can be learned from that time.  Things such as why we fought, what we fought for, and our motivation to make our character the best possible.</span></span></p></blockquote></div><div><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">And I bring you this quote, in regard to the pink...</span></span></span></p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">All it takes is 15/21 pieces for a nearly full, 70% PvE specification.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">6 pieces of PvP armor is all it takes to have 25% damage mitigation and 83% critical mitigation.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">And believe me, you're GRAVELY mistaken if you think there aren't 15 top-tier, high-end raiding items that are leaps and bounds ABOVE what is available as PvP/battlegrounds gear.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are you not acquainted with </span></span></span><a href="eq2.xanadu-community.com/items.php" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">eq2.xanadu-community.com/items.php</span></span></span></a><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> or something?</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">It's very easy to identify extremely viable equipment options as a priest.</span></span></span></p></blockquote></div></div></em></strong></p>

Zacarus
09-01-2010, 09:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To ignore the things that this server did right in the past, is to do this game a great disservice.  If you read what I wrote, you will notice that I did not ask for the game to be returned to those times, although I personally would enjoy that immensely.</p><p>We must look at the things in the past that helped pvp and encouraged guild and faction rivalries, for this will make pvp more fun and rewarding than any warfield or writ could possibly do.  A large amount of people came to this server because blue servers where boring.  We wanted to use our gear we had earned to fight people with.  We wanted some risk when we left the cities to go do an instance or dungeon.  We wanted to be required to stay alert at all time.  We wanted to be able to block our rivals from accomplishing their goals that would make them a stronger force.</p><p>There where many things that made the KoS/EoF era amazing.  There was no instant travel.  No bells that took you to any zone.  No guild hall banners that could port your entire group or raid right next to the zone you where going to.  No auto-connecting flight paths that kept you out of harm's way at landing zones along your route.  If you wanted to go somewhere, you had to be ready to fight at any given moment.  This is one thing that made our server vastly different.  Doing an instance was more than putting together a group that could finish it as fast as possible; it was putting together a group you could trust to get to the instance and work together.  That is gone now.  Once upon a time, if you had a rival guild that was going to do a raid instance, you had the opportunity to try to stop them.  Now, with guild banners, this is forever gone.</p><p>It used to take time and effort to get your full set of pvp gear.  Now, a full set can be gotten in just a couple of weeks.  If you saw someone wearing a full set of pvp gear, you know they had worked hard to get it.  Now, seeing someone without a full set is uncommon.</p><p>PvE content used to fuel some amazing fights and rivalries.  One example of this is the Claymore questline from KoS.  This was a great questline that took your group through different zones and dungeons.  Many groups from all factions where after the same updates as yours.  This lead to alot of entertaining fights in the depths of SoS or PoA.  This lead to cross faction rivalries and victory over your rivals was reward enough, token gain was not even necessary in those cases.  The contested raid mobs in this era where the center of many epic fights.  Guild vs guild fights that lasted hours and days.  Fights that where over potential gear drops that would make one or two people better equipped to fight their rival faction.  If this gear was available for purchase from a merchant for a few faction points or tokens, that would have lead to many of these players growing disinterested.  This is the state of the server now, many players are growing disinterested because rewards are too easy to come by, and the gear that is worked hard for is not usable for the thing that we love.</p><p>Removing the usablity of pve gear in pvp combat removes motivation to aquire the gear.  Forcing people into the same basic pvp gear removes the goal of becoming the best geared and dominent force possible.  Removing this motivation and goal in turn leads to many people becoming bored with the game, which leads to where we are now.</p><p>A healthy, thriving pvp server would be much like a healthy ecosystem.  You need top geared, dominant predators.  You need group hunting and solo hunting.  There needs to be those who only pvp as a defense.  There needs to be zergers and leechers.  The current pvp reward and gear system has altered this balance tragically.  The mass pvp method is now rewarded above all others.  Group vs group fights have turned into a simple game of who can outnumber who.  This is a major turn off to your solo and group hunters.  Those who find no enjoyment wearing the same gear as everyone else, those who find no joy in the mass zerg mentality, those who no longer have their reasons for getting the best possible gear and rewards for their character; are slowly lowering their play time or quitting altogether.  This leaves the server being overrun with what would be the scavengers of the ecosystem.  All these different play styles are important to the server.  When you remove one, no matter how big or small, the results can be tragic.</p><p>We do understand that the game changes over time.  We do understand that we have new AA abilities and new class abilities.  However, we do not understand why the things that made this game so great, are being disregarded and treated as a plague.  We are not expecting a roll back to 2006.  However, there is much that can be learned from that time.  Things such as why we fought, what we fought for, and our motivation to make our character the best possible.</p></blockquote><p><p>-1</p><p>All the people crying about toughness just cant stand it that everyone is well geared.  With things as they are, anyone can put up a fight, and that upsets the bullies.  It must be embarassing for mr-one-shot-raider to have ms-bg-healer-crafter get him in yellow before he kills her.</p></p>

Charmnevac
09-02-2010, 02:05 AM
<p>It has nothing to do with people being "well geared". It has to do with group v group fights being incredibly long and boring and the only solution to ending them is one side outnumbering the other. In solo fights it depends on what class can more DPS, like a bard vs a sorcerer, or an assassin vs a crusader. Bard's are pointless to play in solo PVP unless its ganking lower level questers because their DPS is horrible compared to almost anyone else. A bard's highest hit shouldn't be less than 1k in a fight, not even less than 2k.</p><p>And for assassins vs crusaders, I havent seen a single assassin lose to a crusader yet which is rediculous. An assassin shouldn't be able to outheal a crusader period, but thats for another topic.</p><p>Toughness needs to go, it is ruining this game. Healers are becoming what seems like unkillable. Some scouts and their 25k hp + full toughness require a very long time to kill, their basically tanks now.</p><p>Thinwizzy summed up a lot of stuff and i agree 100% with him. If you agree that toughness should stay in then you were more than likely someone who got rolled constantly the last 4-5years because you couldn't get the gear to compete. Gear shouldn't be handed out like candy. It is a reward, not a "Oh congratulations you killed 50people in a zerg, have a piece of gear!". I don't know what you're thinking honestly Olihin. This is a PVP server, not a carebear server. Stop handing things out to players who don't deserve it.</p>

Bosconi
09-02-2010, 02:34 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It has nothing to do with people being "well geared". It has to do with group v group fights being incredibly long and boring and the only solution to ending them is one side outnumbering the other. In solo fights it depends on what class can more DPS, like a bard vs a sorcerer, or an assassin vs a crusader. Bard's are pointless to play in solo PVP unless its ganking lower level questers because their DPS is horrible compared to almost anyone else. A bard's highest hit shouldn't be less than 1k in a fight, not even less than 2k.</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">And for assassins vs crusaders, I havent seen a single assassin lose to a crusader yet which is rediculous. An assassin shouldn't be able to outheal a crusader period, but thats for another topic.</span></p><p>Toughness needs to go, it is ruining this game. Healers are becoming what seems like unkillable. Some scouts and their 25k hp + full toughness require a very long time to kill, their basically tanks now.</p><p>Thinwizzy summed up a lot of stuff and i agree 100% with him. If you agree that toughness should stay in then you were more than likely someone who got rolled constantly the last 4-5years because you couldn't get the gear to compete. Gear shouldn't be handed out like candy. It is a reward, not a "Oh congratulations you killed 50people in a zerg, have a piece of gear!". I don't know what you're thinking honestly Olihin. This is a PVP server, not a carebear server. Stop handing things out to players who don't deserve it.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Dude, uhm, can you drop any names? Cause I'm thinkin' only cruddy Crusaders would lose to Assassins...</span></p>

Charmnevac
09-02-2010, 02:37 AM
<p>I dont remember the names of crusaders but there are several of them i have seen die to rickyy/akilliez/indey. Assassins have so many heals now and they can drain a crusaders power like its nothing.</p>

Bosconi
09-02-2010, 03:25 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dont remember the names of crusaders but there are several of them i have seen die to rickyy/akilliez/indey. Assassins have so many heals now and they can drain a crusaders power like its nothing.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Those Crusaders gotta learn to kite tbh!!! hahaha. Srsly.</span></p>

skylancer
09-02-2010, 03:30 AM
<p>heed my call. carnaged if hit red players, period</p>

Bosconi
09-02-2010, 03:33 AM
<p><cite>skylancer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>heed my call. carnaged if hit red players, period</p></blockquote><p><div><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">No. There are other solutions (like the quote below) that preserve the strategic importance of engagement locations.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Regardless, it's essentially going to be a non-issue when warfields are segmented by chunks of 3 tiers (or hopefully, specific tiers).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The warfields objectives likely won't be easy enough for the lesser 2 tiers to destroy the tower guardians in a realistic timeframe (should the current warfields model be retained).</span></p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;"><strong>Balancing Offense from the Greys - <span style="color: #ff0000;">Revenge Flag</span></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Though I mentioned earlier that I felt the grey zergers/gankers are a strategic component players need to deal with when they consider their engagement location, we can all realize that, for the majority of tiers (T5-T9, 40-89), </span><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>there are players who are going to be pretty lonely, without many other competitors or allies</em></span></strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Because of that, I think there should be a system should be implemented to address the concerns that arise when there are massive hoards of greys, on the order of x2s to x8s. A flag system can be created to operate in isolated, direct cases, over faction-wide circumstances.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">For instance, this flag could be called the </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Revenge Flag</span><span style="color: #ff6600;">, and once a grey attacks a red, that red can come back to attack that grey, until that grey dies. </span><span style="color: #ff6600;">If the grey dies after becoming </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Revenge Flagged</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> from attacking a red considered player, then they lose their </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Revenge Flag</span><span style="color: #ff6600;">, and the red can no longer hit them.</span></p></blockquote></div></p>

Zacarus
09-02-2010, 08:26 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It has nothing to do with people being "well geared". It has to do with group v group fights being incredibly long and boring and the only solution to ending them is one side outnumbering the other. In solo fights it depends on what class can more DPS, like a bard vs a sorcerer, or an assassin vs a crusader. Bard's are pointless to play in solo PVP unless its ganking lower level questers because their DPS is horrible compared to almost anyone else. A bard's highest hit shouldn't be less than 1k in a fight, not even less than 2k.</p><p>And for assassins vs crusaders, I havent seen a single assassin lose to a crusader yet which is rediculous. An assassin shouldn't be able to outheal a crusader period, but thats for another topic.</p><p>Toughness needs to go, it is ruining this game. Healers are becoming what seems like unkillable. Some scouts and their 25k hp + full toughness require a very long time to kill, their basically tanks now.</p><p>Thinwizzy summed up a lot of stuff and i agree 100% with him. If you agree that toughness should stay in then you were more than likely someone who got rolled constantly the last 4-5years because you couldn't get the gear to compete. Gear shouldn't be handed out like candy. It is a reward, not a "Oh congratulations you killed 50people in a zerg, have a piece of gear!". I don't know what you're thinking honestly Olihin. This is a PVP server, not a carebear server. Stop handing things out to players who don't deserve it.</p></blockquote><p><p>It sounds to me like you have had a hard time adapting, and thus are now complaining.  I've seen bards solo'ing in SF just fine, against fully bg geared players.</p><p>Toughness has done exactly what the developers thought ... allows pvp only players to compete with raiders.  Raiders still have the upper hand because they can mix and match to suit their needs.</p></p>

Charmnevac
09-02-2010, 08:44 AM
<p>Name 5 bards who can solo PVP this expansion and get over a 10 kill streak before they finally die, not including killing greens and blues. I bet you can't. I used to be able to kill full groups last expansion. Sure i don't expect it anymore, but i expect to be able to kill some people. I lose tons of DPS by equipping PVP gear, to where i basically can't do anything to an equally geared player, but they can still hit me just fine. Between resists and the incredibly low amount of damage that bards produce, it's not as easy as you're making it sound.</p><p>PVP requires almost no skill now. It's all who has the #'s and who has the classes who can do more DPS basically.</p>

Jab
09-02-2010, 08:57 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Name 5 bards who can solo PVP this expansion and get over a 10 kill streak before they finally die, not including killing greens and blues. I bet you can't. <span style="color: #ffff00;">I used to be able to kill full groups last expansion</span>. Sure i don't expect it anymore, but i expect to be able to kill some people. I lose tons of DPS by equipping PVP gear, to where i basically can't do anything to an equally geared player, but they can still hit me just fine. Between resists and the incredibly low amount of damage that bards produce, it's not as easy as you're making it sound.</p><p>PVP requires almost no skill now. It's all who has the #'s and who has the classes who can do more DPS basically.</p></blockquote><p>Great statement.</p><p>I can only speak for myself ofc.But it does seem to me that troubs atleast are beasts at dps compared to pre xpac.</p><p>I havent been out pvping full time but the little pvp i have done during lvling two toons to 90 has def showed me that troubs are NASTY mofo dps wise.So i am not sure what ur problem is m8.Maybe u need to examine ur spells and see if something has changed or maybe try a new spec.Cause i have had my rear handed to me in a million pieces after running into troubs.I think the only class that has dominated me as much as troub dps is assassins/warlock dps.</p><p>Not sure what u are doing wrong..</p>

Phineus
09-02-2010, 03:43 PM
<p> Lol, Charm is prosauce. Perhaps the highest parsing troub on the server. Guy used to beat me in a 3 v 1. If he says the dps sux then there is no way for him to improve it.</p>

BlueEternal
09-02-2010, 06:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Name 5 bards who can solo PVP this expansion and get over a 10 kill streak before they finally die, not including killing greens and blues. I bet you can't. <span style="color: #ffff00;">I used to be able to kill full groups last expansion</span>. Sure i don't expect it anymore, but i expect to be able to kill some people. I lose tons of DPS by equipping PVP gear, to where i basically can't do anything to an equally geared player, but they can still hit me just fine. Between resists and the incredibly low amount of damage that bards produce, it's not as easy as you're making it sound.</p><p>PVP requires almost no skill now. It's all who has the #'s and who has the classes who can do more DPS basically.</p></blockquote><p>Great statement.</p><p>I can only speak for myself ofc.But it does seem to me that troubs atleast are beasts at dps compared to pre xpac.</p><p>I havent been out pvping full time but the little pvp i have done during lvling two toons to 90 has def showed me that troubs are NASTY mofo dps wise.So i am not sure what ur problem is m8.Maybe u need to examine ur spells and see if something has changed or maybe try a new spec.Cause i have had my rear handed to me in a million pieces after running into troubs.I think the only class that has dominated me as much as troub dps is assassins/warlock dps.</p><p>Not sure what u are doing wrong..</p></blockquote><p>Are you saying you were lower than 90 and you were running into 90 troubs? Thats all fine and dandy but if im going up against someone with any sort of toughness i'll be lucky to even get my shrill above 500. Hits for 200-300 proccing peoples wards that ward for 1k-2k. Its great to be a bard!</p>

Jab
09-03-2010, 08:53 AM
<p>nah i have tried in all ways posible.below 90 vs other troubs below 90.me being below 90 and the truoub being 90.Andofc both being 90.</p><p>Granted i have no way near the same experience in pvp as i used to be =) but that dosent change the fact that i see troubs doing very decent dps in both pve and pvp.</p><p>But i am pretty sure u guys have alot more hands on experience and as usch u should know better then me whats up and down in this situation.</p><p>And if i have to be honest i was doing abit of baiting to see if you guys would go "crazy" with defending ur class,a class that is in no way a bad pvp class =) IMO atleast.</p><p>there is not much meat on this bone so i will just go back to my hole under the cupboard..</p>

BlueEternal
09-04-2010, 12:52 AM
<p>Nah, I feel no need to get defensive about my class. It has its strengths and its weaknesses. Unfortunately with the CC nerf and this toughness junk, there are just alot of problems right now. I'm just too tired to go into detail because I feel like im talking to a brick wall when it comes to SOE addressing pvp issues.</p>

Bosconi
09-04-2010, 03:36 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nah, I feel no need to get defensive about my class. It has its strengths and its weaknesses. Unfortunately with the CC nerf and this toughness junk, there are just alot of problems right now. I'm just too tired to go into detail because I feel like im talking to a brick wall when it comes to SOE addressing pvp issues.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Personally, I completely, completely disagree with the crowd control and charm nerfs and think they NEED TO BE UNDONE.</span></p>

BlueEternal
09-04-2010, 03:40 AM
<p>Crowd control nerf needs to be undone yes, the charm nerf I dunno. The ability decided alot of fights and combine it with the Cazic Thule god charm or if used while blocking a contested just seemed entirely OP. I remember single handedly wiping a couple avatar pulls due to charming the MT and god charming the OT. It was so broken lol, can't say it wasn't fun though!</p>

Bosconi
09-04-2010, 03:58 AM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Mmm charming...I mean, if SOE is such an uncompromising wall on the issue, I'd be okay with charming not being reverted, but the other crowd control nerfs ought be undone fah shoi...but I'd preferably want it all undone.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">SOE employees have officially stated that block forces are required to have PvP gear as opposed to PvE gear, so if you let someone get charmed and can't cure it and regain hate, then I would call that noobleriousness.</span></p>

BlueEternal
09-04-2010, 04:16 AM
<p>While I agree on some parts, you should probably try fighting HM Klaaktus or Oxy before you comment on if charming the tanks would be recoverable or not. Plus, block forces are useless.</p>

Bosconi
09-04-2010, 04:24 AM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Pshh...if you have 24-48 people as a block force man, you're gonna be DPSing down some enemies! hahaha.</span></p>

Kazzo
09-04-2010, 04:29 AM
<p>I agree 100% w/ thinwizzy & seliri.......... You should just pay them to be advisors or something for PvP, so you guys don't mess it up any more then it is =/</p>

Aleste
09-04-2010, 06:17 AM
<p>Toughness = fail. Really some classes just cant be killed if they are in full toughness gear. On a side note classes should be looked at seriously a player should not have a major advantage in pvp due to a choice at character select.. i mean one button and you beat the game.</p><p>In ending, Toughness = Whole big bag of fail.</p>

max.power
09-04-2010, 07:04 AM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness = fail. Really some classes just cant be killed if they are in full toughness gear.</p></blockquote><p>Everytime someone says something like that I wonder if they realise that without Toughness they wouldn't even have a chance standing against such classes more than 10 seconds?</p><p>If only "some classes" in full Toughness gear can't be killed (but others can by that logic), then there is something wrong with that classes, not with Toughness.</p><p>It's right to say that Toughness screws up some classes, to blame Toughness as a whole for that is wrong. There is a better option than removing it completely: Don't hand out Toughness for the same amount to every class. Even better: Look at the survivability of some classes (armor/jewelry they can wear, AA abilities etc.) and fix that.</p>

Aleste
09-04-2010, 07:46 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness = fail. Really some classes just cant be killed if they are in full toughness gear.</p></blockquote><p><strong>Everytime someone says something like that I wonder if they realise that without Toughness they wouldn't even have a chance standing against such classes more than 10 seconds?</strong></p><p>If only "some classes" in full Toughness gear can't be killed (but others can by that logic), then there is something wrong with that classes, not with Toughness.</p><p>It's right to say that Toughness screws up some classes, to blame Toughness as a whole for that is wrong. There is a better option than removing it completely: Don't hand out Toughness for the same amount to every class. Even better: Look at the survivability of some classes (armor/jewelry they can wear, AA abilities etc.) and fix that.</p></blockquote><p>Well the classes im talking do more ware you down type of damage like healers and tanks. if they didnt have Toughness they would take more damage faster. Toughness reduces the damage being done to them and makes it trivial to heal threw or just out right mitigate. The whole idea of introducing toughness rather than balancing classes is Fail therefore Toughness=fail.</p><p>Btw ive pvped against those classes pre toughness and I stood a chance.. but now with all the damage reduction junk + toughness some classes look like gods. Do me a favor fight a warden 1v1 with and without toughness gear involved and tell me how it goes.</p>

max.power
09-04-2010, 08:41 AM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness = fail. Really some classes just cant be killed if they are in full toughness gear.</p></blockquote><p><strong>Everytime someone says something like that I wonder if they realise that without Toughness they wouldn't even have a chance standing against such classes more than 10 seconds?</strong></p><p>If only "some classes" in full Toughness gear can't be killed (but others can by that logic), then there is something wrong with that classes, not with Toughness.</p><p>It's right to say that Toughness screws up some classes, to blame Toughness as a whole for that is wrong. There is a better option than removing it completely: Don't hand out Toughness for the same amount to every class. Even better: Look at the survivability of some classes (armor/jewelry they can wear, AA abilities etc.) and fix that.</p></blockquote><p>Well the classes im talking do more ware you down type of damage like <strong>healers and tanks</strong>. if they didnt have Toughness they would take more damage faster. Toughness reduces the damage being done to them and makes it trivial to heal threw or just out right mitigate. The whole idea of introducing toughness <strong>rather than balancing classes</strong> is Fail therefore Toughness=fail.</p><p>Btw ive pvped against those classes pre toughness and I stood a chance.. <strong>but now with all the damage reduction junk</strong> + toughness some classes look like gods. Do me a favor fight a warden 1v1 with and without toughness gear involved and tell me how it goes.</p></blockquote><p>You said everything I was pointing out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>"Healers and tanks"... "rather than balancing classes"... "but now with all the damage reduction junk".</p><p>Toughness seems to be an issue for those classes, but for them alone. Giving classes that can already mitigate/ward/stoneskin/100% avoid/heal damage very decently (and on top of that are able to euip items with stonekins etc.) another damage reduction (Toughness) might lead to problems, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole Toughness system is broken, nor does it mean that Toughness isn't essential for many classes to even have a slight chance to stand longer than 10 seconds!</p><p>For the "do me a favor" part: A warden in solely Toughness gear won't be an issue. He will be more of a problem for me when he has the fear item (and the anti fear pot is down) because that will give him enough time to heal up and it will screw my temps and stealth attacks. Couple that with some mana replenishment items and I won't be even able to drain his mana with mental breach. If this warden puts down all his Toughness gear I think I would 2-3 shot him - but not because he lost the 40% damage reduction - it's because he would lose all PvP crit mit!</p><p>It's just not reasonable nowadays to compare two fights with and without Toughness, because of the PvP crit mit attached to it.</p>

sdaigneault
09-04-2010, 10:47 AM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">3.  What we have now is probably the best compromise.   Raid gear is still superior for PvE, but competitive in PvP.   PvP Gear is superior for PvP, and useful towards gaining competitive gear in PvE.   Yes that is not equal but you can solo your way to a full set of PvP gear. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Olihin, I appreciate the time and effort that you've given PVP - and like a lot of the ideas and efforts. Some of them have been a lot of fun - despite the loud whines I hear on these and other boards.</p><p>But, separating PVP from PVE has killed off a huge portion of the game for those of us on PVP servers. There is no incentive to PVE now b/c that gear isn't as good as PVP gear unless you are in Xanadu and getting T4 raid gear. </p><p>What this means is that people sit around on the docks of Ant and CL, and sit around waiting in Q Harbor waiting for the right BG to open b/c doing anything else is a major waste of time if you're trying to stay competitive. </p><p>That's really boring. Yes, I go and do a zone that won't help me every once in a while just for fun, but the chests drop, and I don't even care to see what's in them. It won't matter, other than being a transmutable to adorn my PVP gear. </p><p>Having two armor sets sucks not because we have to swap them out. It sucks because it's dramatically narrowed the game for those of us living on PVP servers. </p><p>Those 100 players sending you PMs from top raiding guilds complaining about TSO gear - are they happy now? </p>

Phineus
09-04-2010, 04:44 PM
<p><cite>sdaigneault wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">3.  What we have now is probably the best compromise.   Raid gear is still superior for PvE, but competitive in PvP.   PvP Gear is superior for PvP, and useful towards gaining competitive gear in PvE.   Yes that is not equal but you can solo your way to a full set of PvP gear. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Olihin, I appreciate the time and effort that you've given PVP - and like a lot of the ideas and efforts. Some of them have been a lot of fun - despite the loud whines I hear on these and other boards.</p><p>But, separating PVP from PVE has killed off a huge portion of the game for those of us on PVP servers. There is no incentive to PVE now b/c that gear isn't as good as PVP gear unless you are in Xanadu and getting T4 raid gear. </p></blockquote><p> Its what the player base asked for. Omg raid gearz are op nerfz them! Now the raiders(not just any raiders but the top players in their class on the server) are saying the nerfz were way overkill because of toughness. Now are we saying take it backzies or I quitz? I dont envy olihin. How do you balance the hardcore players with the softcore without alienating either? If he somehow gets it perfectly balanced then both will cry neways. Its too hard to get or too easy to get. The stats are op or they are underpowered. Should players like charm and cesium be able to wipe entire groups? Ive played with both and I say hell yah but what about those groups coming to the boards and crying about how op sk or charm is in pvp. U couldnt pay enough money to do ohilins job.</p><p> I miss the days when 1 ca and 1 autoattack could kill me. Ah the good ol days.</p>

Sprin
09-04-2010, 06:39 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness = fail. Really some classes just cant be killed if they are in full toughness gear.</p></blockquote><p><strong>Everytime someone says something like that I wonder if they realise that without Toughness they wouldn't even have a chance standing against such classes more than 10 seconds?</strong></p><p>If only "some classes" in full Toughness gear can't be killed (but others can by that logic), then there is something wrong with that classes, not with Toughness.</p><p>It's right to say that Toughness screws up some classes, to blame Toughness as a whole for that is wrong. There is a better option than removing it completely: Don't hand out Toughness for the same amount to every class. Even better: Look at the survivability of some classes (armor/jewelry they can wear, AA abilities etc.) and fix that.</p></blockquote><p>Well the classes im talking do more ware you down type of damage like <strong>healers and tanks</strong>. if they didnt have Toughness they would take more damage faster. Toughness reduces the damage being done to them and makes it trivial to heal threw or just out right mitigate. The whole idea of introducing toughness <strong>rather than balancing classes</strong> is Fail therefore Toughness=fail.</p><p>Btw ive pvped against those classes pre toughness and I stood a chance.. <strong>but now with all the damage reduction junk</strong> + toughness some classes look like gods. Do me a favor fight a warden 1v1 with and without toughness gear involved and tell me how it goes.</p></blockquote><p>You said everything I was pointing out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>"Healers and tanks"... "rather than balancing classes"... "but now with all the damage reduction junk".</p><p>Toughness seems to be an issue for those classes, but for them alone. Giving classes that can already mitigate/ward/stoneskin/100% avoid/heal damage very decently (and on top of that are able to euip items with stonekins etc.) another damage reduction (Toughness) might lead to problems, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole Toughness system is broken, nor does it mean that Toughness isn't essential for many classes to even have a slight chance to stand longer than 10 seconds!</p><p>For the "do me a favor" part: A warden in solely Toughness gear won't be an issue. He will be more of a problem for me when he has the fear item (and the anti fear pot is down) because that will give him enough time to heal up and it will screw my temps and stealth attacks. Couple that with some mana replenishment items and I won't be even able to drain his mana with mental breach. If this warden puts down all his Toughness gear I think I would 2-3 shot him - but not because he lost the 40% damage reduction - it's because he would lose all PvP crit mit!</p><p>It's just not reasonable nowadays to compare two fights with and without Toughness, because of the PvP crit mit attached to it.</p></blockquote><p>LOL this thread isnt about toughness, its about you scout classes being mad that a healer can outheal your damage..</p><p>If you spend endless hours getting all sorts of damage proc gear, developing strats to burn classes down, and you can do MAJOR MAJOR DPS... wouldn't it be just as fair that a healer class who has spent just as much time doing that can do MAJOR MAJOR HPS?!? </p><p>You want so you can kill any class any time without any effort... and are mad that SOE finally made it so that wasnt the case... Suck it up... If you can Dish out 2500 DPS as a DPS class, then a healer should be able to dish out 2500 HPS as a healing class... including the damage reduction help from the gear..</p><p>Let me ask you this... you take that same healer and put him in with 0 toughness.. you would destroy him... so therefore you being a DPS class can do FAR more damage then a HPS class can heal...</p><p>You want your cake and eat it too... just admit it, we all know thats what you are asking... you want to be able to kill any class, any time... and now that a healer can heal through your attacks, you are mad about it..  that is their JOB to do that... they have as many heal / ward proc items as you have damage proc items... except all the heal / ward proc items are junked out and nerfed to oblivion because of all the whining scouts... because scouts cant burn through them... guess what, YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO KILL A HEALER IN EQUAL GEAR...</p><p>If you get nothing else from this post, get this..</p><p>If you do 2k DPS a healer should be able to heal 2K HPS... and you shouldnt win.... that is their job, to heal through just as much as you dish out.  If you are mad that you cant do that, go play Pac Man... you can dominate every ghost there</p>

max.power
09-04-2010, 07:04 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL this thread isnt about toughness, its about you scout classes being mad that a healer can outheal your damage..</p></blockquote><p>Is your response directed at me?</p>

Charmnevac
09-04-2010, 08:02 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL this thread isnt about toughness, its about you scout classes being mad that a healer can outheal your damage..</p><p>If you spend endless hours getting all sorts of damage proc gear, developing strats to burn classes down, and you can do MAJOR MAJOR DPS... wouldn't it be just as fair that a healer class who has spent just as much time doing that can do MAJOR MAJOR HPS?!? </p><p>You want so you can kill any class any time without any effort... and are mad that SOE finally made it so that wasnt the case... Suck it up... If you can Dish out 2500 DPS as a DPS class, then a healer should be able to dish out 2500 HPS as a healing class... including the damage reduction help from the gear..</p><p>Let me ask you this... you take that same healer and put him in with 0 toughness.. you would destroy him... so therefore you being a DPS class can do FAR more damage then a HPS class can heal...</p><p>You want your cake and eat it too... just admit it, we all know thats what you are asking... you want to be able to kill any class, any time... and now that a healer can heal through your attacks, you are mad about it..  that is their JOB to do that... they have as many heal / ward proc items as you have damage proc items... except all the heal / ward proc items are junked out and nerfed to oblivion because of all the whining scouts... because scouts cant burn through them... guess what, YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO KILL A HEALER IN EQUAL GEAR...</p><p>If you get nothing else from this post, get this..</p><p>If you do 2k DPS a healer should be able to heal 2K HPS... and you shouldnt win.... that is their job, to heal through just as much as you dish out.  If you are mad that you cant do that, go play Pac Man... you can dominate every ghost there</p></blockquote><p>I'd appreciate it if you could name me 5classes who can do 2.5k dps in this expac against a healer with full toughness. Please try. I guarantee you can't. Healers are completely overpowered with toughness. It needs to go.</p>

Charmnevac
09-04-2010, 08:05 PM
<p>Jabib you see what just happened? im willing to bet you have 0 toughness. fight me one v one when you get all ur toughness gear and i bet you wont drop 50%</p>

Bosconi
09-04-2010, 08:31 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Greetings,</p><p>In regards to pricing of items on vendors.  The prices are not 300+ tokens anymore since I believe everyone is smart enough to call me on it should Battleground vendors and Open PvP vendors differed drastically.   </p><p>At this time the items are about average 90 tokens + coin on BGs, and 150 tokens + status in PvP.  <span style="color: #ff00ff;"> If I priced them at 350 or so like before, then we would have no one joining us in Open PvP since the BGs would be the easiest and most convenient way to get your armor. </span>  As mentioned before, there will not be any items added to Open PvP that is also not added to the BG vendors.   So pricing items how it being done currently is in your best interest.  </p><p>I have to look at the overall health of the server and pricing items way to high or putting crazy restrictions on them would not be consistent and looked at fairly by you.  The hope is to get fame working and other in game fun activities set to make your time more enjoyable.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'd just like to extravagantly focus upon what I see to be a very troublesome concern here.</span></p><div><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">If gear is too easy to obtain and the grind or timesink of PvP isn't lengthy enough</span></strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"> for people to have a higher, sustained motivation to PvP for the appropriately desirable items, </span><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">players are going to be more likely to stagnate and be bored of PvP.</span></strong></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div><span style="color: #ff6600;">For one, consider the fact that people paid 1,000, 1,250, 1,500, and 2,000 tokens when PvP writs were still requiring specific sub-classes (I think they'd been changed to 5 tokens over 1 per writ at this time, but I'm not 100% sure on that).</span></div><div></div><div><span style="color: #ff0000;">Not only should there be raid-quality items priced at such rates, but there should be TOP OF THE LINE raid items selling for 8,000 TO 10,000 tokens (up to 64-88 times normal item cost).</span></div><div></div><div></div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Pricing for battlegrounds isn't an issue</span></strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">, as items that'd be worth 10,000 PvP tokens would multiply the normal armor rate by 66 to 88 times.</span></div><div><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the upper echelon of the high-class PvP items</span></strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">, they'd cost 88 times the normal armor rate (normal cost being 125 tokens).</span></div><div><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the lower echelon of the high-class PvP items</span></strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">, they'd cost 64 times the normal armor rate.</span></div><div></div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">For the echelon of the mid/high-class PvP items</span></strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">, they'd cost 8-20 times the normal armor rate.</span></div><div><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></div><div><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">All you'd have to do is multiply battlegrounds rates by 8-20, 64, or 88.</span></strong></div>

Sprin
09-04-2010, 09:28 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL this thread isnt about toughness, its about you scout classes being mad that a healer can outheal your damage..</p><p>If you spend endless hours getting all sorts of damage proc gear, developing strats to burn classes down, and you can do MAJOR MAJOR DPS... wouldn't it be just as fair that a healer class who has spent just as much time doing that can do MAJOR MAJOR HPS?!? </p><p>You want so you can kill any class any time without any effort... and are mad that SOE finally made it so that wasnt the case... Suck it up... If you can Dish out 2500 DPS as a DPS class, then a healer should be able to dish out 2500 HPS as a healing class... including the damage reduction help from the gear..</p><p>Let me ask you this... you take that same healer and put him in with 0 toughness.. you would destroy him... so therefore you being a DPS class can do FAR more damage then a HPS class can heal...</p><p>You want your cake and eat it too... just admit it, we all know thats what you are asking... you want to be able to kill any class, any time... and now that a healer can heal through your attacks, you are mad about it..  that is their JOB to do that... they have as many heal / ward proc items as you have damage proc items... except all the heal / ward proc items are junked out and nerfed to oblivion because of all the whining scouts... because scouts cant burn through them... guess what, YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO KILL A HEALER IN EQUAL GEAR...</p><p>If you get nothing else from this post, get this..</p><p>If you do 2k DPS a healer should be able to heal 2K HPS... and you shouldnt win.... that is their job, to heal through just as much as you dish out.  If you are mad that you cant do that, go play Pac Man... you can dominate every ghost there</p></blockquote><p>I'd appreciate it if you could name me 5classes who can do 2.5k dps in this expac against a healer with full toughness. Please try. I guarantee you can't. Healers are completely overpowered with toughness. It needs to go.</p></blockquote><p>LOL the number was made up to make a point...   IE: you do 20k DPS, a healer does 20K HPS... you want to be able to do 20k DPS and the healer to do 10k HPS so you can OMFGWTFPWN them easily like you used to be able to do...   A healer needs to be able to do as much heals per second as you can damage per second... and if thats the case, it means you alone arent going to be killing a healer.. as it should be... because your job is to do damage, healers jobs are to heal that damage... if you all have the same amount of gear, then you shoulndt be able to kill a healer... simple concept, im sorry you cant grasp it and are blinded by the fact you used be be able to easily kill healers and now they made it so they HPS as much as you DPS...</p><p>and no healers aren't completely overpowered with toughness, they now stand a chance with toughness.. take it away and no class can stand a chance against a lvl 90 high DPS toon with 20 different single target / encounter damage procs...</p><p>what you MEANT to say, was that now scouts aren't completely overpowered, and you want that to go back to the way it was... with them being the top of the food chain and nobody can do anything about it except a full group...</p><p>And you whining scout classes have made it so there is an immunity to EVERY single control efect EXCEPT knockdown... so you can easily kill a healer with timed knockdowns..... every fighter, scout, and several mages and other healers have knockdowns... any healer can be chain knocked down and killed within seconds... there are no immunities to it... but I dont see you complaining about that do I?</p>

Charmnevac
09-04-2010, 10:21 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LOL the number was made up to make a point...   IE: you do 20k DPS, a healer does 20K HPS... you want to be able to do 20k DPS and the healer to do 10k HPS so you can OMFGWTFPWN them easily like you used to be able to do...   A healer needs to be able to do as much heals per second as you can damage per second... and if thats the case, it means you alone arent going to be killing a healer.. as it should be... because your job is to do damage, healers jobs are to heal that damage... if you all have the same amount of gear, then you shoulndt be able to kill a healer... simple concept, im sorry you cant grasp it and are blinded by the fact you used be be able to easily kill healers and now they made it so they HPS as much as you DPS...</p><p>and no healers aren't completely overpowered with toughness, they now stand a chance with toughness.. take it away and no class can stand a chance against a lvl 90 high DPS toon with 20 different single target / encounter damage procs...</p><p>what you MEANT to say, was that now scouts aren't completely overpowered, and you want that to go back to the way it was... with them being the top of the food chain and nobody can do anything about it except a full group...</p><p>And you whining scout classes have made it so there is an immunity to EVERY single control efect EXCEPT knockdown... so you can easily kill a healer with timed knockdowns..... every fighter, scout, and several mages and other healers have knockdowns... any healer can be chain knocked down and killed within seconds... there are no immunities to it... but I dont see you complaining about that do I?</p></blockquote><p>First of all, im a troub. I have one knockback, but i have to spec into it to get it. CC means nothing now, its all about damage. When i do about half of the dps i did last expansion, there is a problem. When my t7 troub can have a high hit in PVP higher than my t9 troub can, there is a problem.</p><p>Sure, healers should be able to heal as much as people should be able to DPS. But thats where debuffs come in to play. When i debuff you fully, i should gain a slight advantage, and then i should be able to use CC so you cant really heal at all for a short period of time, but we can forget about that now. I can't get a healer with full toughness out of green hp now when im solo. They resist resist resist, then parry constantly (which is another thing, healers and mages shouldnt be able to parry. K thanks!). I can't hit them for more than 800-900 damage with my highest hit ever either. So now you have a healer that would be doing HPS 5-10x the amount of my DPS.</p><p>Its not that healers "now stand a chance". They've always been able to, every healer class. The problem they have always had is CC classes. Now that healers are basically invincible to CC and you don't really die to anyone, you think "oh i stand a chance now cuz people can't kill me!". Get real, seriously.</p><p>Fix toughness, fix resistance consolidation, and fix CC. Thanks!</p>

Aleste
09-05-2010, 01:13 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness = fail. Really some classes just cant be killed if they are in full toughness gear.</p></blockquote><p><strong>Everytime someone says something like that I wonder if they realise that without Toughness they wouldn't even have a chance standing against such classes more than 10 seconds?</strong></p><p>If only "some classes" in full Toughness gear can't be killed (but others can by that logic), then there is something wrong with that classes, not with Toughness.</p><p>It's right to say that Toughness screws up some classes, to blame Toughness as a whole for that is wrong. There is a better option than removing it completely: Don't hand out Toughness for the same amount to every class. Even better: Look at the survivability of some classes (armor/jewelry they can wear, AA abilities etc.) and fix that.</p></blockquote><p>Well the classes im talking do more ware you down type of damage like <strong>healers and tanks</strong>. if they didnt have Toughness they would take more damage faster. Toughness reduces the damage being done to them and makes it trivial to heal threw or just out right mitigate. The whole idea of introducing toughness <strong>rather than balancing classes</strong> is Fail therefore Toughness=fail.</p><p>Btw ive pvped against those classes pre toughness and I stood a chance.. <strong>but now with all the damage reduction junk</strong> + toughness some classes look like gods. Do me a favor fight a warden 1v1 with and without toughness gear involved and tell me how it goes.</p></blockquote><p>You said everything I was pointing out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>"Healers and tanks"... "rather than balancing classes"... "but now with all the damage reduction junk".</p><p>Toughness seems to be an issue for those classes, but for them alone. Giving classes that can already mitigate/ward/stoneskin/100% avoid/heal damage very decently (and on top of that are able to euip items with stonekins etc.) another damage reduction (Toughness) might lead to problems, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole Toughness system is broken, nor does it mean that Toughness isn't essential for many classes to even have a slight chance to stand longer than 10 seconds!</p><p>For the "do me a favor" part: A warden in solely Toughness gear won't be an issue. He will be more of a problem for me when he has the fear item (and the anti fear pot is down) because that will give him enough time to heal up and it will screw my temps and stealth attacks. Couple that with some mana replenishment items and I won't be even able to drain his mana with mental breach. If this warden puts down all his Toughness gear I think I would 2-3 shot him - but not because he lost the 40% damage reduction - it's because he would lose all PvP crit mit!</p><p>It's just not reasonable nowadays to compare two fights with and without Toughness, because of the PvP crit mit attached to it.</p></blockquote><p>LOL this thread isnt about toughness, its about you scout classes being mad that a healer can outheal your damage..</p><p>If you spend endless hours getting all sorts of damage proc gear, developing strats to burn classes down, and you can do MAJOR MAJOR DPS... wouldn't it be just as fair that a healer class who has spent just as much time doing that can do MAJOR MAJOR HPS?!? </p><p>You want so you can kill any class any time without any effort... and are mad that SOE finally made it so that wasnt the case... Suck it up... If you can Dish out 2500 DPS as a DPS class, then a healer should be able to dish out 2500 HPS as a healing class... including the damage reduction help from the gear..</p><p>Let me ask you this... you take that same healer and put him in with 0 toughness.. you would destroy him... so therefore you being a DPS class can do FAR more damage then a HPS class can heal...</p><p>You want your cake and eat it too... just admit it, we all know thats what you are asking... you want to be able to kill any class, any time... and now that a healer can heal through your attacks, you are mad about it..  that is their JOB to do that... they have as many heal / ward proc items as you have damage proc items... except all the heal / ward proc items are junked out and nerfed to oblivion because of all the whining scouts... because scouts cant burn through them... guess what, YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO KILL A HEALER IN EQUAL GEAR...</p><p>If you get nothing else from this post, get this..</p><p>If you do 2k DPS a healer should be able to heal 2K HPS... and you shouldnt win.... that is their job, to heal through just as much as you dish out.  If you are mad that you cant do that, go play Pac Man... you can dominate every ghost there</p></blockquote><p>Healers can outheal 3 dsp classes on them using cc some healers can out heal groups of dps classes on them. Seriously? some classes cant even damage healers into yellow let alone red. I agree things should be equal and require a bit of skill on each parties side but there are some classes that cannot kill a healer no matter what they do. PVP should not be determined at the character select screen.</p>

Zacarus
09-05-2010, 01:36 AM
<p><p>Toughness is fine as is.  We now have a level playing field ... casually played bg geared toons can compete (and usually lose) against full-time lifer-type eq2 raid geared toons.</p><p>The raiders crying about toughness are upset that all their hours killing dragons should give them an advantage over people earning gear through pvp / bg.  And that's exactly the problem that toughness has addressed -- you now don't have to spend your weeknights with 23 other eq-nerds checking your dkp every hour to be sure you can out-spend that brigand in group 2 -- to be competitive in pvp.</p><p>You can now login at your own convenience, pick up a bg fight, and earn game rewards -- imagine that!  <3 toughness!</p></p>

Stuckx
09-05-2010, 01:39 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><p>Toughness is fine as is.  We now have a level playing field ... casually played bg geared toons can compete (and usually lose) against full-time lifer-type eq2 raid geared toons.</p><p>The raiders crying about toughness are upset that all their hours killing dragons should give them an advantage over people earning gear through pvp / bg.  And that's exactly the problem that toughness has addressed -- you now don't have to spend your weeknights with 23 other eq-nerds checking your dkp every hour to be sure you can out-spend that brigand in group 2 -- to be competitive in pvp.</p><p>You can now login at your own convenience, pick up a bg fight, and earn game rewards -- imagine that!  <3 toughness!</p></p></blockquote><p>Oh look! Another Ohlihin fanboy who's blind to the fact that PVP in this game has gone dramatically down hill since the release of SF and Ohlihin's awful toughness system.</p><p>You go stand by Neskonlith and you two can preach Ohlihin's glory..meanwhile,the rest of us who aren't completely ignorant will continue to point out everything wrong with this system and how it's making PVP less desireable.</p>

Taldier
09-05-2010, 02:14 AM
<p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'd just like to extravagantly focus upon what I see to be a very troublesome concern here.</span></p><div><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">If gear is too easy to obtain and the grind or timesink of PvP isn't lengthy enough</span></strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"> for people to have a higher, sustained motivation to PvP for the appropriately desirable items, </span><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">players are going to be more likely to stagnate and be bored of PvP.</span></strong></div><div></div><div> </div></blockquote><p>Pvp should never be based upon a pure grind.  That would be the reason people <span style="text-decoration: underline;">didnt</span> stay on pve servers.</p><p>Remember back when we hardly had any token rewards?  Or even when they were all just based off of faction instead?  And yet people still went out every day to pvp anyway because the combat itself WAS ACTUALLY FUN.</p><p>When who you killed and how you killed them actually mattered to people instead of just the number of stupid easymode writs they grinded out.</p><p>Players get bored of pvp because right now <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">IT IS BORING</span></strong>.  Creating rewards that players can gain by repetitively grinding even more of the broken and boring pvp combat does not make pvp interesting.</p><p>How about they fix actual pvp combat mechanics?  Not much point in making new rewards if no one actually gets them because they all quit.</p><p>How about making it so that players can actually die?  Giving every single [Removed for Content] noob that noone has ever heard of the ability to survive forever just because they autofollowed the q swarm for writ updates is stupid.</p><p>If Im obviously winning by a large margin, what is the point of them staying alive for like 5 minutes just from gear and nothing else whatsoever?</p><p>Pvp on pvp servers is not about having 50 people stand in the middle of a field bashing each other randomly over the head until one side (q's obviously) gets enough reinforcements to roll over the other.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">The words "PVP" and "Grinding" should not appear in the same sentence EVER.</span></p>

Charmnevac
09-05-2010, 02:16 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness is fine as is.  We now have a level playing field ... <span style="font-size: x-large;">casually played bg geared toons can compete</span> (and usually lose) against full-time lifer-type eq2 raid geared toons.</p><p>The raiders crying about toughness are upset that all their hours killing dragons should give them an advantage over people earning gear through pvp / bg.  And that's exactly the problem that toughness has addressed -- you now don't have to spend your weeknights with 23 other eq-nerds checking your dkp every hour to be sure you can out-spend that brigand in group 2 -- to be competitive in pvp.</p><p>You can now login at your own convenience, pick up a bg fight, and earn game rewards -- imagine that!  <3 toughness!</p></blockquote><p>What a great quote. People who play casually shouldn't gear up in 2-3 days and be able to compete with people who play all the time, period. I see a point in people having to pvp for gear that makes you competitive in PVP, it makes perfect sense. But it should be balanced gear, and i don't believe every class that wears a certain type of armor (scouts/mages/etc.) should have to wear the same exact piece of gear. I think it should have set bonuses that benefit the class, like in the previous expansions. I dont think random casual scrub xyz should compete with a hardcore pvper/raider ever. It shouldn't be a carebear PVP server, it didnt use to be, and thats why people are [Removed for Content]. The only people who are happy is the actual casual scrubs because they can stand a chance against people who have been pvping for years and years, not 2-3days.</p>

Darkor
09-05-2010, 03:37 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness is fine as is.  We now have a level playing field ... casually played bg geared toons can compete (and usually lose) against full-time lifer-type eq2 raid geared toons.</p><p>The raiders crying about toughness are upset that all their hours killing dragons should give them an advantage over people earning gear through pvp / bg.  And that's exactly the problem that toughness has addressed -- you now don't have to spend your weeknights with 23 other eq-nerds checking your dkp every hour to be sure you can out-spend that brigand in group 2 -- to be competitive in pvp.</p><p>You can now login at your own convenience, pick up a bg fight, and earn game rewards -- imagine that!  <3 toughness!</p></blockquote><p>Congrats, another person who completely missed the point. NOONE has a problem if you can get competive gear via pvping. But we are talking about COMPETIVE, not BETTER gear.</p><p>Again: BEFORE raid gear was better than pvp gear. Then came the pvp gear with crit mit which even out most stuff. NOW pvp gear is b etter and that is WRONG. No playstyle should dominate the other, PvP and PvE worked together for so many years and suddenly it does not? Thats kinda strange seeing how well pvp went back in the days when there was not even anything to gain.</p><p>Toughness has to go, end of story.</p>

Bosconi
09-05-2010, 04:53 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'd just like to extravagantly focus upon what I see to be a very troublesome concern here.</span></p><div><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">If gear is too easy to obtain and the grind or timesink of PvP isn't lengthy enough</span></strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"> for people to have a higher, sustained motivation to PvP for the appropriately desirable items, </span><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">players are going to be more likely to stagnate and be bored of PvP.</span></strong></div><div></div><div> </div></blockquote><p>Pvp should never be based upon a pure grind.  That would be the reason people <span style="text-decoration: underline;">didnt</span> stay on pve servers.</p><p>Remember back when we hardly had any token rewards?  Or even when they were all just based off of faction instead?  And yet people still went out every day to pvp anyway because the combat itself WAS ACTUALLY FUN.</p><p>When who you killed and how you killed them actually mattered to people instead of just the number of stupid easymode writs they grinded out.</p><p>Players get bored of pvp because right now <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">IT IS BORING</span></strong>.  Creating rewards that players can gain by repetitively grinding even more of the broken and boring pvp combat does not make pvp interesting.</p><p>How about they fix actual pvp combat mechanics?  Not much point in making new rewards if no one actually gets them because they all quit.</p><p>How about making it so that players can actually die?  Giving every single [Removed for Content] noob that noone has ever heard of the ability to survive forever just because they autofollowed the q swarm for writ updates is stupid.</p><p>If Im obviously winning by a large margin, what is the point of them staying alive for like 5 minutes just from gear and nothing else whatsoever?</p><p>Pvp on pvp servers is not about having 50 people stand in the middle of a field bashing each other randomly over the head until one side (q's obviously) gets enough reinforcements to roll over the other.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">The words "PVP" and "Grinding" should not appear in the same sentence EVER.</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">lol.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The PvP system was different then because we didn't have terrible fame decay that ruins freedom of player choice to enjoy 95% of the rest of the game while punishing work accomplished in a fame hunt.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Crowd control nerfs were also uncalled for.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Longevity is also being addressed with mutilate being undispellable, but IMO, there should be a yellow slot or some sort, to adorn a limit of 1-2 items with mutilate, in order to avoid forced cookie cutter specifications that nobody likes.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The idea that rewards should be limited just because you like to sensationalize aspects of EQ2 PvP that made it more interesting, it's ridiculous.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">There's nothing wrong with providing incentives for time commitment, that's what MMOs ARE -- PERIOD.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Certainly there are details that can make undergoing a grind -- a laborious repetition of tasks -- less noticable, but regardless, most things in life are just that bro, a grind.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Trying to ostracize or undermine inclusions of high-value upgrades is pointless if all you're doing is lying and ignoring how everything is still a grind, no matter how you try to spice it or spruce it up.</span></p><p><div><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness is fine as is.  We now have a level playing field ... casually played bg geared toons can compete (and usually lose) against full-time lifer-type eq2 raid geared toons.</p><p>The raiders crying about toughness are upset that all their hours killing dragons should give them an advantage over people earning gear through pvp / bg.  And that's exactly the problem that toughness has addressed -- you now don't have to spend your weeknights with 23 other eq-nerds checking your dkp every hour to be sure you can out-spend that brigand in group 2 -- to be competitive in pvp.</p><p>You can now login at your own convenience, pick up a bg fight, and earn game rewards -- imagine that!  <3 toughness!</p></blockquote><p>Congrats, another person who completely missed the point. NOONE has a problem if you can get competive gear via pvping. But we are talking about COMPETIVE, not BETTER gear.</p><p>Again: BEFORE raid gear was better than pvp gear. Then came the pvp gear with crit mit which even out most stuff. NOW pvp gear is b etter and that is WRONG. No playstyle should dominate the other, PvP and PvE worked together for so many years and suddenly it does not? Thats kinda strange seeing how well pvp went back in the days when there was not even anything to gain.</p><p>Toughness has to go, end of story.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I don't get why the over-reactive mentality is so prevalent with the same posters, but the lies perpetrated are far-fetched, and it's never been amusing to me that all of them have ignored the simple, objective truth on the matter.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Note that the word priest can be exchanged for scout, mage, or fighter in the following quote.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; color: #ffffff; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><strong><em></em></strong></span></p><strong><em><div><div><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">All it takes is 15/21 pieces for a nearly full, 70% PvE specification.</span></span></span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">6 pieces of PvP armor is all it takes to have 25% damage mitigation and 83% critical mitigation.</span></span></span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">And believe me, you're GRAVELY mistaken if you think there aren't 15 top-tier, high-end raiding items that are leaps and bounds ABOVE what is available as PvP/battlegrounds gear.</span></span></span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are you not acquainted with </span></span></span><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/eq2.xanadu-community.com/items.php" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">eq2.xanadu-community.com/items.php</span></span></span></a><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> or something?</span></span></span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">It's very easy to identify extremely viable equipment options as a priest.</span></span></span></p></blockquote></div></div></em></strong></div></p>

Greggthegrmreapr
09-05-2010, 09:28 AM
<p>Simple fix for all PvP issues.  Revert the game back to KoS.  Remove the massive amount of procs that were added since then.  Remove all the changes that have come since then.  This is when PvP was at its height.  Have you not noticed that since then the numbers of people on PvP have been dropping?  Perhaps because every time you change something now it doesn't fix all the other issues, it just creates more.</p>

Bosconi
09-05-2010, 10:44 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Simple fix for all PvP issues.  Revert the game back to KoS.  Remove the massive amount of procs that were added since then.  Remove all the changes that have come since then.  This is when PvP was at its height.  Have you not noticed that since then the numbers of people on PvP have been dropping?  Perhaps because every time you change something now it doesn't fix all the other issues, it just creates more.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.) Well they definitely should do polls on the PvP server to see if they should take away insta-travel bells/portals/guild strategists to replace them with more PvP oriented options.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">But, SOE likely isn't going to be accommodating or compromising on this issue.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">For instance, the guild strategist could be changed to force pinned, tracked waypoints on peoples' maps, to help find up to 3 enemies in contested zones.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Aside from that, contested/quested content is nowhere near what it was during earlier KoS/EoF ages.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>Easy options to cultivate contested content exist.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">2.) Create more mobs like Philuphii the Destroyer, the cerberus in Sundered Frontier, and just make them drop components people NEED to purchase/finalize moderate/EXTREME upgrades to PvP gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>Substantial token costs would still be a prerequisite.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Also give these mobs specific PvP adornment components, recipes, or even more guild trophy, mounted heads.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">These could be created for PvE servers as well, given their access to battlegrounds...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>3.) All instances could also have CONSTANT, ALWAYS open contested versions scaled per tier (with players restricted to the version of their tier).</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Drop rates could be adjusted accordingly, and this feature could be introduced to PvE servers, as well.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">4.) Faction balance remains an extreme problem as well, one that requires passive bonuses with no spell/combat art loss for those transferring from stronger-to-weaker tiers to whichever faction.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Those are all, simply, drastic moves SOE might not be willing to commit to due to the casuals they feel are catered to with current implements, on top of the expenditure relative to the amount of population benefit.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And, finances obviously do seem very tight and conservative given timetravelling and many other SOE employees being laid off, as well as the fairly small scale of Destiny of Velious when compared to expansive options introduced in Rise of Kunark.</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">5.) At the very least, fame decay needs to be entirely abolished and fame loss on death from those ranked 1 up/down/on par with your rank needs to return.</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">This horse has been beaten and many, many threads have been made multi-page, locked, and abandoned on the issue.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Supposedly the effort to restore this rule set is complicated, but nobody is communicating as to why...O_o</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>The only 2 changes the old fame system needs are: no fame gain while dead & a 1 week reuse, 30 sec casting toggle to reset your rank and opt in or out of participation in the PvP title system.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I did support fame loss/gain even while on recent or even with someone on your recent, </span><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">but that's excessive</span></strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">, as the hurdle of building a title is dealing with respawn zergers if you inappropriately make yourself susceptible by engaging in chokepoint, troublesome regions.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">(P.S. I obviously ignored your idea to "remove the massive amounts of procs that have since been added post-KoS" because that's an extremely unrealistic, uncompromising request to make, given how expansion content focuses on item progression, as well as the monumental amounts of time players have already spent in an effort to obtain such gear.)</span></p>

Jab
09-05-2010, 04:22 PM
<p>Edit:</p><p>Newb poster</p>

Jab
09-05-2010, 04:28 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Jabib you see what just happened? im willing to bet you have 0 toughness. fight me one v one when you get all ur toughness gear and i bet you wont drop 50%</p></blockquote><p>I have a wooping 309 thoughness.</p><p>basicly i have 2 lvl 90 pvp pieces and rest is t8 =)</p><p>I think i am what ppl call "A [Removed for Content]" .</p><p>But im working on it when i got an hour or two of play time, so eventually i will be more competative ..i hope</p>

Phineus
09-06-2010, 04:57 PM
<p> I rolled a t4 pvper bcuz I dont have a lot of time to raid anymore. I got full aa and all my gear in about 3 or 4 days. I had to run some longer questlines for upgrades which may have taken a week total from character creation. The toon is a lot of fun and kept me entertained until I noticed I couldnt burn anyone in a 1v1 without them breaking combat and running away. So I rerolled an sk lulz. The point. Sometimes its fun just to have a lame lil pvper with easy to achieve gear to play for a few hours a week. Those that know me know I wasnt happy unless I was raiding 40 or 50 hours a week. So much so I was going to join a euro raid guild so I could raid twice a day. Time sinks are fun but sometimes light pvping can be fun too for those that are time limited.</p><p>Uber raiders want to outgear the regular pvpers in a gear based game(remember when mythicals were implemented*). I always supported the idea but the noobs didnt like getting owned by the prosauce players. I applaud olihin for trying to fix the unfixable. It must be very frustrating to try to give us what we ask for only for us to throw it back in his face every single time.</p><p> * The player based was so incensed that only the exile guilds were getting the uber op gear that they started working together acrossed faction to ensure they all got enough tokens to buy the pvp gear. They were willing to cheat en mass because they were so offended by the idea of only 1 faction getting a raid piece of gear. The flautuna debacle.</p>

Aleste
09-06-2010, 08:59 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>god i hate toughness. Ruined pvp.</p></blockquote><p>How has toughness ruined pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Made raid gear useless in PVP,thus keeping people away from instances..thus creating boredom and causing people to leave.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm by your logic toughness ruined pve, might want to rethink that statement.</p><p>and why should raiding mean you deserve better gear for pvp than someone who just pvps?</p></blockquote><p>Wrong wrong wrong. You still have no idea what impact toughness has in this game.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>1. </strong></span>BEFORE raid gear was superior than anything.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>2. </strong></span>THEN they brought in pvp gear which did counter most of the raid gear making things even in pvp.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>3. </strong></span>NOW pvp gear is better than raid gear in pvp and this is wrong.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>4. </strong></span>Gear should be equal to either style and never favour one.  <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>5. </strong></span>I LOVE to pvp, i have chars in all tiers but i hate the idea of having to aquire 2 gear sets on every toon, let alone carry them with me and switch each time i di pve to pvp. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>6.</strong></span> I refuse to equip toughness gear, i have only 1 armor piece and only because raid legs dont feel like dropping.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>7. </strong></span>Again: I have no problem with casuals getting good armor, but toughness has to go because right now the pvp gear is better than the rest. People do not pvp all day on the server and they do not do pve all day. We do a mix of both and some like to pvp more and some like to pve more, Ohilin should respect that.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">1. This is true and this was huge problem for everyone except the 24 on the raid rosters of our very limited successful raid guilds, their alts and whomever was rich enough to buy the loot rights.   In fairness, I would say 100 people found this to be the true golden age of PvP.   Everyone else?  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">2.  This caused the 100 people previously mention to PM me to no end about the unfairness that now maybe 100 more people would have the gear that competes with their raid gear.   This change also exposed the huge desire of everyone to want to participate in PvP and gave hundreds of other players hope of competition.   The reaction against the "copy paste" armor was huge, positive or negative the need for a new approach was requested.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">3.  What we have now is probably the best compromise.   Raid gear is still superior for PvE, but competitive in PvP.   PvP Gear is superior for PvP, and useful towards gaining competitive gear in PvE.   Yes that is not equal but you can solo your way to a full set of PvP gear.   </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">4. That is the ideal but the reality is that we need to look at the health of the game when considering this approach.  Battlegrounds sharing the same rewards with Open PvP is a huge consideration when making the armor.   In time, new features will be created to change this, but in the meantime the armor needs to follow our current trend.    </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">5.  Items are HEIRLOOM.  Tokens are HEIRLOOM.  This was done to facilitate the 'twinking' of your alts.   I honestly am more concerned with players trying to gear up their main character.   That is the problem we had.   People could not even get themselves a full set of gear to compete, so now they have a choice and a progression path toward their playstyle.   At the same time you have "who are you, and where did you come from" player suddenly defeating those that once roamed the lands without fear.   This is not a detriment to PvP at all, but it encourages the top PvP players to stay on top, regardless of who faces them.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">6.  This sounds more like a personal matter then a PvP concern.   The fact that you are wearing PvP legs, just because the PvE ones have yet to drop, show that you don't think they are that bad of an item.   At the same time it shows the frustration experienced by Raiders in point 2, where they felt forced to PvP to fill up on slots they where missing in TSO.   Having to PvP was the most frustrating thing for quite a few players.  Now they don't have to worry about that and the acquisition of PvP gear is only because the players wants to, not because they need to.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong><em>In addition, the bag slots are huge now.  The macro to load your armor is simple.  If you are going to PvP then wear your PvP gear.  If you are going to PvE then wear your raid gear.   Sure you may die once, but then that just means the flag was not planted in the right spot.  If you want to bring up questing in overland zones; the PvP items are more then enough to defeat any quest target.</em></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">7.  I hope that in my previous responses you see that I do in fact respect everyone's opinion.   The goal is to produce a healthy PvP environment for everyone to enjoy.   We have many game changes that affect PvP and they are beyond my control.   So when changes are made please understand that I am always running around in game listening to what people say and try to do my best to provide the right information to the team so that we can make the best choices for PvP.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Your thoughts on contesteds? Or is pvp meant to be at warfeilds only? Pvp isnt allways consensual and having to make a macro to load between diffrent gear sets is fail.. Both sets should be useable in both environments. Raiding and running instances for loot gets people out into zones and provides potential pvp targets. (well it did before guild flags and insta ports everywhere), but most importantly raiding/instances allow people to gear themselves they way they choose and still be viable in both pvp and pve without the gear swap. I cant stand Bg gear its so cookie cutter it hurts almost everyone on my server is wearing the stuff for two reasons.</p><p>1. Its easy to get. A ton of people had full challengers the day it was released.</p><p>2. Beyond weapons it's the best gear for Pvp due to all the damage reductions. Yes red adorns are nice but not at as nice as damage reduction since if your wearing raid gear you take alot more damage in pvp.</p><p>All in all I see less people out pvping now than I ever have. No reason to leave your guild hall really. After a few days you have full "pvp" gear by bging and no one to go out and pvp lol.</p><p>I'm going to go out on a limb and say one of the major things missing from pvp is the sense of accomplishment. The fame system is botched (kill a few people and stay logged in afk=title). The gear is to easy to aquire and once you have it what makes your toon diffrent? The ability to build your toon is long lost theres pvp aa specs which are all the same usualy due to aa trees being a massive fail. (rouge wis line, cleirc wis line being two that instantly come to mind). And having gear being thrown at us. I say MAKE people want to get into zones to better their toons and remove fame decay (roll fame back to kos days) and pvp will be a bit more livley.</p><p> And while were at turning pvp into /random gear procs can we get some dispel proc weapons?</p>

Phineus
09-07-2010, 10:21 PM
<p> Contesteds were kindof a joke really. I was informed by the lead gm that to contest you need to form a raid capable of killing the mob. In other words a group cannot contest a mob(I suspect that this applied to heroics also) or it was called zone disruption. Almost contradictory in the same discussion I was told that if there is a pvp solution it is not zone disruption. With all the petitioning and funny business that went on (with very questionable suspensions of groups being accused of abusing immunity while not immune at all) it kinda took the fun out of it. I got suspended for saying I charmed a tank on a character that didnt even have a charm. Go figure.</p>

threat111
09-08-2010, 02:09 PM
<p>People seem to be drifting away from the point of this post.  Toughness needs to be removed.  Any amount of Innate base damage reduction is not what was needed.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the "raid gear vs pvp gear" arguement.  Pvp Crit mit alone is enough to make most any raid drop less desirable in pvp combat.  Also, I could give a [Removed for Content] where i get the gear i use in each scenerio.  The path that EQ2 has taken of appeasing the lowest common denominator makes getting anything easy.</p><p>PVP is with out a doubt the worst it has ever been.  Sure there are people out there who in the past would get steam-rolled by any one that attacked them and now they wont die.  Those people love toughness and are continuing to use other arguements to take away from the fact that they are terrible and dont want that crutch to be removed.</p><p>Its been said multiple times that PVP is being tuned for the 6v6 mechanic.  Right now 2 6v6 groups of pretty much any skill (the ability to press 3-4 buttons and repeat.)  Could fight forever with no risk of death.  Take a tank, dps, cleric, druid, chanter, and w/e and have them fight another group of similar make up and there would not be any winner.  With perfect execution you MIGHT manage to kill 1-2 people in the group but there would never be a point that you could not recover from and the would last until the servers shut down.</p><p>Is this the goal?  Save me, and yourself, time and money and just let me know now if this is the desired effect of your pvp adjustments.  Is every pvp encounter supposed to be a stalemate?</p><p>If there are no winners there is no compitition.</p>

Olihin
09-08-2010, 02:24 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>People seem to be drifting away from the point of this post.  Toughness needs to be removed.  Any amount of Innate base damage reduction is not what was needed.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the "raid gear vs pvp gear" arguement.  Pvp Crit mit alone is enough to make most any raid drop less desirable in pvp combat.  Also, I could give a [Removed for Content] where i get the gear i use in each scenerio.  The path that EQ2 has taken of appeasing the lowest common denominator makes getting anything easy.</p><p>PVP is with out a doubt the worst it has ever been.  Sure there are people out there who in the past would get steam-rolled by any one that attacked them and now they wont die.  Those people love toughness and are continuing to use other arguements to take away from the fact that they are terrible and dont want that crutch to be removed.</p><p>Its been said multiple times that PVP is being tuned for the 6v6 mechanic.  Right now 2 6v6 groups of pretty much any skill (the ability to press 3-4 buttons and repeat.)  Could fight forever with no risk of death.  Take a tank, dps, cleric, druid, chanter, and w/e and have them fight another group of similar make up and there would not be any winner.  With perfect execution you MIGHT manage to kill 1-2 people in the group but there would never be a point that you could not recover from and the would last until the servers shut down.</p><p>Is this the goal?  Save me, and yourself, time and money and just let me know now if this is the desired effect of your pvp adjustments.  Is every pvp encounter supposed to be a stalemate?</p><p>If there are no winners there is no compitition.</p></blockquote><p>There definitely needs to be a winner.   At the same time, toughness may still need to be modified futher.  </p><p>The problem is where does your skill come into play?  You are suggesting that equally geared groups do not have a chance to outsmart the other if they are all on top of their game?   I would disagree with you on that point.    I have seen what a group of well played characters can do and it is not a pretty sight.  </p><p>The numbers will continue to be adjusted.   I believe that you know that I adjust things based on the potential of a well played group not a PUG like you stated.   The well played groups and even individual players are what provide me the information on how it is possible to win.   The best group, or your Alpha team as we call it, can take out any other group quite easy.  On the other hand, yes two Alpha groups will take longer.   If you can find me two such groups it might be easier to get more data, for now it is hard to find anyone that is not just wearing only PvP gear and call themselves an Alpha team for their guild. </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Duotang
09-08-2010, 02:36 PM
<p>Toughness is a great addition to pvp gear. It's the one thing that differentiates pvp from pve gear.</p><p>Back when Onyx was in Haven, people were in AWE because of how GREAT these people were at pvp, but they weren't. Basically, they were un-killable. Why? They spent more time gearing out their toons from raids, than the average Joe does gearing out his real life house/car/family/etc. So, if you were unemployed or on welfare, you had a very slim chance to fight them.</p><p>Now, however, enter "toughness" to pvp gear. It is not difficult to attain pvp gear in comparasin to raid gear. Top end raid gear IS hard to get. Even if you are in a guild that can kill end game raid mobs, you still have to "wait in line" with your dkp to buy the stuff.</p><p>Toughness allows players of ALL flavors to pvp with some sense of equalization. If a gunslinger shows up to an arm wrestling match, whacks the two combatants, does he feel he's accomplished anything? I know Onyx would, but the rest of us would probably say to ourselves "that was rather stupid".</p>

Darkor
09-08-2010, 02:48 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Toughness is a great addition to pvp gear. It's the one thing that differentiates pvp from pve gear.</p><p>Back when Onyx was in Haven, people were in AWE because of how GREAT these people were at pvp, but they weren't. Basically, they were un-killable. Why? They spent more time gearing out their toons from raids, than the average Joe does gearing out his real life house/car/family/etc. So, if you were unemployed or on welfare, you had a very slim chance to fight them.</p><p>Now, however, enter "toughness" to pvp gear. It is not difficult to attain pvp gear in comparasin to raid gear. Top end raid gear IS hard to get. Even if you are in a guild that can kill end game raid mobs, you still have to "wait in line" with your dkp to buy the stuff.</p><p>Toughness allows players of ALL flavors to pvp with some sense of equalization. If a gunslinger shows up to an arm wrestling match, whacks the two combatants, does he feel he's accomplished anything? I know Onyx would, but the rest of us would probably say to ourselves "that was rather stupid".</p></blockquote><p>Maybe Onyx was impossible to kill for you, but not for us. I think the problem were your skills, not the armor.</p>

threat111
09-08-2010, 04:32 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>People seem to be drifting away from the point of this post.  Toughness needs to be removed.  Any amount of Innate base damage reduction is not what was needed.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the "raid gear vs pvp gear" arguement.  Pvp Crit mit alone is enough to make most any raid drop less desirable in pvp combat.  Also, I could give a [Removed for Content] where i get the gear i use in each scenerio.  The path that EQ2 has taken of appeasing the lowest common denominator makes getting anything easy.</p><p>PVP is with out a doubt the worst it has ever been.  Sure there are people out there who in the past would get steam-rolled by any one that attacked them and now they wont die.  Those people love toughness and are continuing to use other arguements to take away from the fact that they are terrible and dont want that crutch to be removed.</p><p>Its been said multiple times that PVP is being tuned for the 6v6 mechanic.  Right now 2 6v6 groups of pretty much any skill (the ability to press 3-4 buttons and repeat.)  Could fight forever with no risk of death.  Take a tank, dps, cleric, druid, chanter, and w/e and have them fight another group of similar make up and there would not be any winner.  With perfect execution you MIGHT manage to kill 1-2 people in the group but there would never be a point that you could not recover from and the would last until the servers shut down.</p><p>Is this the goal?  Save me, and yourself, time and money and just let me know now if this is the desired effect of your pvp adjustments.  Is every pvp encounter supposed to be a stalemate?</p><p>If there are no winners there is no compitition.</p></blockquote><p>There definitely needs to be a winner.   At the same time, toughness may still need to be modified futher.  </p><p>The problem is where does your skill come into play?  You are suggesting that equally geared groups do not have a chance to outsmart the other if they are all on top of their game?   I would disagree with you on that point.    I have seen what a group of well played characters can do and it is not a pretty sight.  </p><p>The numbers will continue to be adjusted.   I believe that you know that I adjust things based on the potential of a well played group not a PUG like you stated.   The well played groups and even individual players are what provide me the information on how it is possible to win.   The best group, or your Alpha team as we call it, can take out any other group quite easy.  On the other hand, yes two Alpha groups will take longer.   If you can find me two such groups it might be easier to get more data, for now it is hard to find anyone that is not just wearing only PvP gear and call themselves an Alpha team for their guild. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>You set up the parameters, find 6 people you think are competant and believe the load you're shoveling.  I'll take 6 people and show you they can not be killed.</p>

Thinwizzy
09-08-2010, 04:33 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You set up the parameters, find 6 people you think are competant and believe the load you're shoveling.  I'll take 6 people and show you they can not be killed.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p>

Sprin
09-08-2010, 06:42 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  It has absolutely nothing to do with the "raid gear vs pvp gear" arguement. </p></blockquote><p>This post has EVERYTHING to do with the "raid gear vs pvp gear" argument.  You want to be able to kill scripted mobs for 5 hour a night and then come out on your "time off" and then use that gear to annihilate everything in your path because you think you have "earned" the right to do so.</p><p>The only thing you have "earned" the right to do by raiding 5 hours a night is kill more Raid mobs faster.  Thats it.  Your argument is pathetic, you want to raid and win at pvp... This is a PVP server, the best gear should be had by PVPing. Period. </p><p>The fact is like I pointed out before in another post, the ONLY thing PVP gear has going for it is toughness.  Raid gear drops contain FAR FAR FAR FAR better procs, stats, HP, etc etc etc boosts to them.  So you can go out with a group of raid geared players and toughness or not, you cant be killed either, because your raid gear has stupidly OP ward / heal / damage procs on them that aren't available to anyone who PVP's and red adorns that nobody who just PVP's can get.  Red adorns which add FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more then any of you whining raiders are willing to admit, because of the fact that it does indeed add a HUGE advantage to anyone who doesnt have raid gear along with the red adorns.</p><p>And you speak of this 6 man stacked group.... the fact is, if you went out with your 6 man MT group, you could take on armies, even without your crit mit.  Why? because its a perfectly formed 6 man group with raid procs and red adorns that give a HUGE advantage over PVP'rs...  So you take more damage because you have no toughness? Who cares, you have extra triggers on death saves, tons more HP then any PVP can get, group wide buffs that are normally only single target, just as much, if not more Mitigation as any PVP can get, on TOP of which, you get all your golden Raid gear procs and stats on top of that. </p><p>Have you ever seen the Mitigation PVP gear? Its statless, you get mitigation for PVP and THATS IT... no damage / heal / ward procs, no + to any stat, its just plain jane Mitigation increases for PVP only... You get that same mitigation from RAID gear...</p><p>Not to mention the endless Potency from RAID gear that stacks MUCH MUCH higher then the crappy +2 PVP potency anyone gets from PVP gear...</p><p>NOOOOO, you guys always forget to mention all that, its always "TOUGHNESS IS OP... WHHHAAAA!!!!"... Every other aspect of Raid gear is OP for PVP and the ONLY way non raiders can even stand a chance is through Toughness... and this post is 100000% about taking away that defense so that raiders can rule the world and never be touched and destroy anything and everything in its path, just like they did all through ROK and TSO...</p><p>This post is ONLY about the "raid vs pvp gear" argument... any way you slice it, you want raiders to be untouchable on a PVP server and those who PVP just as much as you raid, to be squishy junkers that kneel before Zod...</p><p>The fact remains that Just because someone doesnt raid, doesnt mean they dont put just as much if not MORE time in developing their toons then raiders do...  and on a PVP server, that time and effort put into PVP'ng SHOULD yield the most powerfull tools to PVP with.... as it stands, Toughness is just a way to thwart the massively OP procs and gear that raiders get, and you want that taken away now too...</p><p>cry me a river TBH...  go kill some more scripted mobs with timers telling you you're next move... and what you should do next, and how often, and how hard...</p>

threat111
09-08-2010, 08:34 PM
<p>You are the exact people im talking about.  You are so defensive and unwilling to look at what the problems are.  For once you feel like you are competeing with end game players when in fact its nothing more then a completely broken mechanic that needs to be removed.</p><p>Again.  Its got nothing to do with raid gear vs pvp gear.  Its just as easy to get either.  Any one with the ability to run to a tower can get tokens in the WF, or simply leach out a BG.  Getting the items means absolutly nothing.  Thats another problem all together.  The issue is toughness is rediculously over powered and it ultimately makes every "decent" pvp encounter a stalemate.  Sure you can run around in gank groups and update your writs but thats not what im talking about.  The problem is when you have 2 well balanced 6 player groups there will never be a winner.  And if you do not feel that is the truth then feel free to tell Olihin you are willing to represent his side and thats 1 less person he has to find.</p>

Olihin
09-08-2010, 08:47 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are the exact people im talking about.  You are so defensive and unwilling to look at what the problems are.  For once you feel like you are competeing with end game players when in fact its nothing more then a completely broken mechanic that needs to be removed.</p><p>Again.  Its got nothing to do with raid gear vs pvp gear.  Its just as easy to get either.  Any one with the ability to run to a tower can get tokens in the WF, or simply leach out a BG.  Getting the items means absolutly nothing.  Thats another problem all together.  The issue is toughness is rediculously over powered and it ultimately makes every "decent" pvp encounter a stalemate.  Sure you can run around in gank groups and update your writs but thats not what im talking about.  The problem is when you have 2 well balanced 6 player groups there will never be a winner.  And if you do not feel that is the truth then feel free to tell Olihin you are willing to represent his side and thats 1 less person he has to find.</p></blockquote><p>If its not about raid gear vs. pvp gear then there is no real issue here.   I have already stated that our team is looking at making Toughness more balanced.   We have taking feedback on options but we are also looking at other system changes coming that will increase DPS.</p><p>I would love to know who your 6 would be though...</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Risca
09-08-2010, 10:12 PM
<p>There is toughness on all the master crafted armor and large amounts on the bg armor</p><p>Is it that when you have played Mr Olihini or whatever you have been so terrible and unable to "earn gear"you dont want people who work for there gear to have the same streangths as someone who has pvp/bg/afk for 3 weeks</p><p>we work our [Removed for Content] off for months and months to get gear and improve on it and what happens in a contested open world fight? a raid in pve gear cant touch a grp or two in full pvp gear... i thought PvP wasnt supposed to effect PvE but it is change the system back to the way it was remove toughness and have pvp crit mit on bg/pvpgear and raid gear that is all</p>

Corydonn
09-08-2010, 10:21 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem is when you have 2 well balanced 6 player groups there will never be a winner.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe if both groups are unskilled. When I'm playing with proper groups and the other team has a proper groups even in full toughness the fights end rather fast.</p>

Sprin
09-08-2010, 10:55 PM
<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem is when you have 2 well balanced 6 player groups there will never be a winner.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe if both groups are unskilled. When I'm playing with proper groups and the other team has a proper groups even in full toughness the fights end rather fast.</p></blockquote><p>Right, he wants it to be like it used to be, where 1 Raid geared group could take on a x4 of each faction, at the same time, and never lose...  He wants raiders to be unbeatable and for them to stomp anyone who only PVP's... this is what he wants...</p>

wayfaerer
09-08-2010, 11:10 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would love to know who your 6 would be though...</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>2 tanks, 2 healers, 1 enchanter, 1 anything. If they are full PvP geared then you'll never kill any of them in a 6v6. The fight would literally go forever.</p>

Bosconi
09-09-2010, 12:48 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would love to know who your 6 would be though...</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>2 tanks, 2 healers, 1 enchanter, 1 anything. If they are full PvP geared then you'll never kill any of them in a 6v6. The fight would literally go forever.</p></blockquote><p><div><p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>The proc nerfs definitely need to be undone.</strong></span></p><div><p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">TBH, PvP writ agents should've been left in contested PvP areas only.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Crowd control nerfs were unneeded.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Mystic/Fury/Illusionist/Dirge mythical nerfs were unneeded.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And yeah old fame system + no fame gain while dead + toggle PvP title participation w/ 1 week reuse 30 sec casting.</span></p></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></p>

Cloakentuna
09-09-2010, 01:33 AM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are the exact people im talking about.  You are so defensive and unwilling to look at what the problems are.  For once you feel like you are competeing with end game players when in fact its nothing more then a completely broken mechanic that needs to be removed.</p><p>Again.  Its got nothing to do with raid gear vs pvp gear.  Its just as easy to get either.  Any one with the ability to run to a tower can get tokens in the WF, or simply leach out a BG.  Getting the items means absolutly nothing.  Thats another problem all together.  The issue is toughness is rediculously over powered and it ultimately makes every "decent" pvp encounter a stalemate.  Sure you can run around in gank groups and update your writs but thats not what im talking about.  The problem is when you have 2 well balanced 6 player groups there will never be a winner.  And if you do not feel that is the truth then feel free to tell Olihin you are willing to represent his side and thats 1 less person he has to find.</p></blockquote><p>If its not about raid gear vs. pvp gear then there is no real issue here.   I have already stated that our team is looking at making Toughness more balanced.   We have taking feedback on options but we are also looking at other system changes coming that will increase DPS.</p><p>I would love to know who your 6 would be though...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Crusader, Warden, Cleric, Chanter, dps #1, dps #2 or tank #2, assuming they don't blow giant shlongs, won't die to any other group.</p><p>I'd take Cesium(sk), Fionula(warden), Rancherbob(Inq), myself(coercer), Tenka(zerker), and 1 other person, perhaps Olofi (dirge), or really any other random dps from my guild, and you would not be able to put 6 people together in FP that would be able to kill that group.</p>

threat111
09-09-2010, 02:12 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are the exact people im talking about.  You are so defensive and unwilling to look at what the problems are.  For once you feel like you are competeing with end game players when in fact its nothing more then a completely broken mechanic that needs to be removed.</p><p>Again.  Its got nothing to do with raid gear vs pvp gear.  Its just as easy to get either.  Any one with the ability to run to a tower can get tokens in the WF, or simply leach out a BG.  Getting the items means absolutly nothing.  Thats another problem all together.  The issue is toughness is rediculously over powered and it ultimately makes every "decent" pvp encounter a stalemate.  Sure you can run around in gank groups and update your writs but thats not what im talking about.  The problem is when you have 2 well balanced 6 player groups there will never be a winner.  And if you do not feel that is the truth then feel free to tell Olihin you are willing to represent his side and thats 1 less person he has to find.</p></blockquote><p>If its not about raid gear vs. pvp gear then there is no real issue here.   I have already stated that our team is looking at making Toughness more balanced.   We have taking feedback on options but we are also looking at other system changes coming that will increase DPS.</p><p>I would love to know who your 6 would be though...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Crusader, Warden, Cleric, Chanter, dps #1, dps #2 or tank #2, assuming they don't blow giant shlongs, won't die to any other group.</p><p>I'd take Cesium(sk), Fionula(warden), Rancherbob(Inq), myself(coercer), Tenka(zerker), and 1 other person, perhaps Olofi (dirge), or really any other random dps from my guild, and you would not be able to put 6 people together in FP that would be able to kill that group.</p></blockquote><p>Something like this.  Keep in mind thats not me saying that we are going to kill any group you send out.  Its just saying we are not going to die to 6 players.   IMO best group set up would be Guardian, Zerker, Templar, Warden, Coercer, insert any DPS.  And thats BEFORE the warrior changes lol.  After the zerkers get 100% aoe auto attack damage with both primary, secondary, and ranged items.  Then all the completely untested in pvp guardian changes..  Its going to be hilarious how completely overpowered warriors are in pvp with the proper group set ups.</p>

Charmnevac
09-09-2010, 02:19 AM
<p>I honestly don't believe Olihin plays on this server. There's no way. His ignorance blows my mind about what he thinks should be happening in PvP. He thinks people in raid gear should kill people in PvP gear... what? He thinks people can throw a 6man together and fight another 6man and kill them in seconds... what?</p>

Sprin
09-09-2010, 02:38 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are the exact people im talking about.  You are so defensive and unwilling to look at what the problems are.  For once you feel like you are competeing with end game players when in fact its nothing more then a completely broken mechanic that needs to be removed.</p><p>Again.  Its got nothing to do with raid gear vs pvp gear.  Its just as easy to get either.  Any one with the ability to run to a tower can get tokens in the WF, or simply leach out a BG.  Getting the items means absolutly nothing.  Thats another problem all together.  The issue is toughness is rediculously over powered and it ultimately makes every "decent" pvp encounter a stalemate.  Sure you can run around in gank groups and update your writs but thats not what im talking about.  The problem is when you have 2 well balanced 6 player groups there will never be a winner.  And if you do not feel that is the truth then feel free to tell Olihin you are willing to represent his side and thats 1 less person he has to find.</p></blockquote><p>If its not about raid gear vs. pvp gear then there is no real issue here.   I have already stated that our team is looking at making Toughness more balanced.   We have taking feedback on options but we are also looking at other system changes coming that will increase DPS.</p><p>I would love to know who your 6 would be though...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Crusader, Warden, Cleric, Chanter, dps #1, dps #2 or tank #2, assuming they don't blow giant shlongs, won't die to any other group.</p><p>I'd take Cesium(sk), Fionula(warden), Rancherbob(Inq), myself(coercer), Tenka(zerker), and 1 other person, perhaps Olofi (dirge), or really any other random dps from my guild, and you would not be able to put 6 people together in FP that would be able to kill that group.</p></blockquote><p>Something like this.  Keep in mind thats not me saying that we are going to kill any group you send out.  Its just saying we are not going to die to 6 players.   IMO best group set up would be Guardian, Zerker, Templar, Warden, Coercer, insert any DPS.  And thats BEFORE the warrior changes lol.  After the zerkers get 100% aoe auto attack damage with both primary, secondary, and ranged items.  Then all the completely untested in pvp guardian changes..  Its going to be hilarious how completely overpowered warriors are in pvp with the proper group set ups.</p></blockquote><p>This has ALWAYS been the case... where a completely stacked raid geared group couldn't be killed, not just a 6 v 6, but a 24+ vs that 6...   In the past its been whatever group had the most OP raid gear, this time its whoever has the most OP raid gear... wait... there is no difference..</p><p>just because the group you are fighting is in full PVP gear, doesnt mean a fully raid geared stacked group will die to them... In fact, regardless of toughness, the PVP gear'd group is at a disadvantage... Those raid geared players have better procs, red adorns, and more HP, much higher potency, higher mitigation, etc etc etc....  to offset the lack of toughness... so the pvp'rs will be critting on you, you have the raid procs from gear to counter all that and then some...</p><p>Lets name the real issue, its the complete nerf of control effects that is the differenc between now and TSO and even the end of ROK... in ROK / TSO you could put a 6 v 6 together of fully geared raid groups, and they would fight forever... the only thing that would end it was if there were some well placed control effects... now with control effects being worthless, through nerfs and through gear, that doesnt happen.</p><p>This argument is titled "remove toughness" but what it should be is "give us control effects back"... because THAT is what causes endless fights, the fact that any class can shrug off any effect, including mez, AND, on top of that, there is no more Charm...</p><p>Mez and Charm used to be the deciding factors in those kind of group fights.....  now anyone can cure mez, and nobody can be charmed, and the rest of the CC's just are nerfed down to junk..</p><p>It used to be only certain healers had the advantage of being able to cure their groups and themselves while under the effect of most CC's... now ANY healer can, and in fact any MAGE can now cure themselves then cure their healers...</p><p>If nobody had toughness or everyone had toughness, the same holds true..  so this argument becomes strictly the Raiders being upset that they dont get toughness on raid gear.</p><p>They KNOW their raid gear is better, hands down, then PVP gear, in EVERY way, which is why they want this toughness nerfed...</p><p>And Cesium, if you are telling me your MT Guard / Zerk / Templar / Coercer / Warden / Sin would melt to a 6 v 6 of PVP geared toons with junker procs... you are just flat out lying... and you know it...</p><p>The fact is you go out with that group and you are steamrolled not by another full group of 6 equally geared players in PVP gear, but by that group, plus another few solos, probably a few small groups of 2-3 players, plus about 50+ gray leechers, all of who land CC at every swing....   you long for the days where a 6 player stacked raid group can stand against 50+ lvl 90's, soley because of raid gear being so massively OP... those days are gone... Gear changes, AA changes and class changes have balanced that out a bit, so that that cant happen...   and when did that happen back in ROK / TSO days?  you had 6 raid geared players vs 50+ pvp / instance geared players... raid gear was massively OP then, and now things have switched a bit and you are angry, I get it, but roll with the punches... We finally have a PVP dev that understands that just because you raid, doesnt mean you should be able to hold against 50+ lvl 90's and never die..</p><p>Think of now if the reverse were true... if PVP gear were as powerfull as the raid gear once was... do you honestly think a stacked PVP group now can hold up to a x4+ of raid geared players? lol, not a chance... you would LOVE for people to believe that, but it just aint so.....</p><p>just admit it and stop beating around the bush.. you want to Raid and steamroll any and everyone without doing anything, just like Raiders used to be able to do...</p>

Stuckx
09-09-2010, 02:46 AM
<p><strong>just because the group you are fighting is in full PVP gear, doesnt mean a fully raid geared stacked group will die to them... In fact, regardless of toughness, the PVP gear'd group is at a disadvantage... Those raid geared players have better procs, red adorns, and more HP, much higher potency, higher mitigation, etc etc etc....  to offset the lack of toughness... so the pvp'rs will be critting on you, you have the raid procs from gear to counter all that and then some...</strong></p><p>You don't know how toughness works do you? A group in full toughness gear is going to destroy a group in full raid gear,and that's a fact. Ontop of having absolutely no crit mit..you also lose the 40% damage reduction if you're wearing a full set of raid gear..Meaning that PVP groups DPS are pretty much going to oneshot the entire raid group...a single warlock could probably wipe out the group in raid armor within 30 seconds.</p><p><strong></strong></p>

Notsovilepriest
09-09-2010, 02:46 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are the exact people im talking about.  You are so defensive and unwilling to look at what the problems are.  For once you feel like you are competeing with end game players when in fact its nothing more then a completely broken mechanic that needs to be removed.</p><p>Again.  Its got nothing to do with raid gear vs pvp gear.  Its just as easy to get either.  Any one with the ability to run to a tower can get tokens in the WF, or simply leach out a BG.  Getting the items means absolutly nothing.  Thats another problem all together.  The issue is toughness is rediculously over powered and it ultimately makes every "decent" pvp encounter a stalemate.  Sure you can run around in gank groups and update your writs but thats not what im talking about.  The problem is when you have 2 well balanced 6 player groups there will never be a winner.  And if you do not feel that is the truth then feel free to tell Olihin you are willing to represent his side and thats 1 less person he has to find.</p></blockquote><p>If its not about raid gear vs. pvp gear then there is no real issue here.   I have already stated that our team is looking at making Toughness more balanced.   We have taking feedback on options but we are also looking at other system changes coming that will increase DPS.</p><p>I would love to know who your 6 would be though...</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Crusader, Warden, Cleric, Chanter, dps #1, dps #2 or tank #2, assuming they don't blow giant shlongs, won't die to any other group.</p><p>I'd take Cesium(sk), Fionula(warden), Rancherbob(Inq), myself(coercer), Tenka(zerker), and 1 other person, perhaps Olofi (dirge), or really any other random dps from my guild, and you would not be able to put 6 people together in FP that would be able to kill that group.</p></blockquote><p>Something like this.  Keep in mind thats not me saying that we are going to kill any group you send out.  Its just saying we are not going to die to 6 players.   IMO best group set up would be Guardian, Zerker, Templar, Warden, Coercer, insert any DPS.  And thats BEFORE the warrior changes lol.  After the zerkers get 100% aoe auto attack damage with both primary, secondary, and ranged items.  Then all the completely untested in pvp guardian changes..  Its going to be hilarious how completely overpowered warriors are in pvp with the proper group set ups.</p></blockquote><p>This has ALWAYS been the case... where a completely stacked raid geared group couldn't be killed, not just a 6 v 6, but a 24+ vs that 6...   In the past its been whatever group had the most OP raid gear, this time its whoever has the most OP raid gear... wait... there is no difference..</p><p>just because the group you are fighting is in full PVP gear, doesnt mean a fully raid geared stacked group will die to them... In fact, regardless of toughness, the PVP gear'd group is at a disadvantage... Those raid geared players have better procs, red adorns, and more HP, much higher potency, higher mitigation, etc etc etc....  to offset the lack of toughness... so the pvp'rs will be critting on you, you have the raid procs from gear to counter all that and then some...</p><p>Lets name the real issue, its the complete nerf of control effects that is the differenc between now and TSO and even the end of ROK... in ROK / TSO you could put a 6 v 6 together of fully geared raid groups, and they would fight forever... the only thing that would end it was if there were some well placed control effects... now with control effects being worthless, through nerfs and through gear, that doesnt happen.</p><p>This argument is titled "remove toughness" but what it should be is "give us control effects back"... because THAT is what causes endless fights, the fact that any class can shrug off any effect, including mez, AND, on top of that, there is no more Charm...</p><p>Mez and Charm used to be the deciding factors in those kind of group fights.....  now anyone can cure mez, and nobody can be charmed, and the rest of the CC's just are nerfed down to junk..</p><p>It used to be only certain healers had the advantage of being able to cure their groups and themselves while under the effect of most CC's... now ANY healer can, and in fact any MAGE can now cure themselves then cure their healers...</p><p>If nobody had toughness or everyone had toughness, the same holds true..  so this argument becomes strictly the Raiders being upset that they dont get toughness on raid gear.</p><p>They KNOW their raid gear is better, hands down, then PVP gear, in EVERY way, which is why they want this toughness nerfed...</p><p>And Cesium, if you are telling me your MT Guard / Zerk / Templar / Coercer / Warden / Sin would melt to a 6 v 6 of PVP geared toons with junker procs... you are just flat out lying... and you know it...</p><p>The fact is you go out with that group and you are steamrolled not by another full group of 6 equally geared players in PVP gear, but by that group, plus another few solos, probably a few small groups of 2-3 players, plus about 50+ gray leechers, all of who land CC at every swing....   you long for the days where a 6 player stacked raid group can stand against 50+ lvl 90's, soley because of raid gear being so massively OP... those days are gone... Gear changes, AA changes and class changes have balanced that out a bit, so that that cant happen...   and when did that happen back in ROK / TSO days?  you had 6 raid geared players vs 50+ pvp / instance geared players... raid gear was massively OP then, and now things have switched a bit and you are angry, I get it, but roll with the punches... We finally have a PVP dev that understands that just because you raid, doesnt mean you should be able to hold against 50+ lvl 90's and never die..</p><p>Think of now if the reverse were true... if PVP gear were as powerfull as the raid gear once was... do you honestly think a stacked PVP group now can hold up to a x4+ of raid geared players? lol, not a chance... you would LOVE for people to believe that, but it just aint so.....</p><p>just admit it and stop beating around the bush.. you want to Raid and steamroll any and everyone without doing anything, just like Raiders used to be able to do...</p></blockquote><p>This is and was only true if people couldn't work together and the 1 group was, Doesn't matter the amount of gear. I don't care who is taunting, healing, whatever, If 24 people are on 1 target they will die, Period. PvP is so wonderful now it's people sitting in immunity for the next warfield, 1 Insurrection group cherry picking people on Quel from the Aqueduct, and then some randoms around, everyone else just BGs because atleast there you are guaranteed to get something for your time.</p><p>The gear crutch from last expansion was garbage too, there was still no notable difference fighting factions while exiled even after 90% of them had the Copy-Paste raid armor, why? because they didn't work together, something raiders have to do every time they raid or else they get nothing but a repair bill.</p><p>PVP used to be fun, now it's nothing but a chore. Anyone PvPing exclusively for the gear has lost the essence of a PvP server in general which is a vast majority of those left now, I remember roaming around on my Mystic in T7 just fighting whatever and whoever I wanted because it was fun, not because I was getting the gear for it. It's just not fun anymore</p>

bRz
09-09-2010, 03:20 AM
<p>The motives behind this thread are obvious. As ghetto has pointed out, you guys just want your gear advantage back.  Toughness is far from perfect and needs adjusting but its not as exaggerated as you claim. Ohlin is pretty spot on that its just when toughness is added to an already powerful defensive attribute that it gets out of hand. Is pvp gear to easy obtain? absolutely, but thats a whole other issue isnt it. Not one person pushing for removing toughness has had any solution for maintaining a level playing field for people who prefer to pvp on a pvp server vs those who raid and pvp, offer up some ideas and you wont seem so biased.</p>

Stuckx
09-09-2010, 03:24 AM
<p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The motives behind this thread are obvious. As ghetto has pointed out, you guys just want your gear advantage back.  Toughness is far from perfect and needs adjusting but its not as exaggerated as you claim. Ohlin is pretty spot on that its just when toughness is added to an already powerful defensive attribute that it gets out of hand. Is pvp gear to easy obtain? absolutely, but thats a whole other issue isnt it. Not one person pushing for removing toughness has had any solution for maintaining a level playing field for people who prefer to pvp on a pvp server vs those who raid and pvp, offer up some ideas and you wont seem so biased.</p></blockquote><p>You're wrong..this thread isn't about wanting any gear advantage..it's about wanting to enjoy the game as a whole..that means allowing us to obtain gear for PVP through raiding if we choose. I've said it a hundred times already..this is NOT A PVP GAME. PVP was an afterthought..that didn't mean it wasn't fun..But what made PVP in this game fun was the combination of working your butt off in PVE to get the absolute best gear,and then using that gear to fight against the opposite faction who'd been working just as hard as you.</p><p>Understand yet? Probably not..Half the idiots on this forums can't seem to grasp that concept.</p><p>Edit: Itemization was another important thing that made this game fun..being able to look up items and say "Hey..that would help me out when I fight x class..I want to get that!" And then going out and actually trying to get it..Now? People have one set of cookie cutter gear..it's the exact same as everyone else..no one is unique and as a result,no one really cares about trying to advance their toon.</p>

Ralpmet
09-09-2010, 03:53 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've said it a hundred times already..this is NOT A PVP GAME. PVP was an afterthought..</p></blockquote><p>I think you selected the wrong server when you rolled bud.</p>

Stuckx
09-09-2010, 03:55 AM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've said it a hundred times already..this is NOT A PVP GAME. PVP was an afterthought..</p></blockquote><p>I think you selected the wrong server when you rolled bud.</p></blockquote><p>Way to single out one part of my post and use it completely out of context. Did I not say that PVP in this game used to be fun? I would not have rolled on the PVP server if I did not enjoy the competition.</p><p>I've been on PVP server since day one..How long have you been here?</p>

threat111
09-09-2010, 04:06 AM
<p>Acually it doesnt bother me in the least that I have to get PVP gear thru pvp and Raid gear thru raiding.  During beta I spoke with olihin in great detail about this and it was a comfortable comprimise.</p><p>Even if you completely removed toughness.  The PvP crit mit on pvp gear makes it more desirable then raid gear.  Thats only on armor atm..  but with some adornment changes it could easily be added to pvp jewelry.  Back in the day EVERYONE still choose the smart pvp jewelry over 99% of the raid pieces.  Was any one not using the banshee hoop or any of the force clear/lock target items?  These are the types of mechanics you need to encourage.  Not generic blanket effects.</p><p>Not sure where all of your anger comes from against my choice of raiding.  I enjoy raiding and I used to enjoy PVP.  Now PVP is terrible.  There is no sence of accomplishment when you aquire the items thru pvp.  The fights themselves have been dumb down to oblivian.  You dont see me out PVP anymore becuase there is no reason to.  Its not fun.  So there is no reason for me to go put myself thru that just to get gear that makes it less fun.</p><p>Its not that I dont want to pvp.  I just no longer see the point.</p><p>Olhin my offer still stands.  Find a group, try and make a set of parameters that you think will most justify your pov and I will grab 6 people online and show you what I am talking about.  I'll be at the at the ocean with my family till sunday night so that will give you some time to think about my offer.  Hell if you want you can even set it up on test copy.  Go get any one you want worldwide and we can all stand there and press buttons laughing at broken mechanics.</p>

Ralpmet
09-09-2010, 04:31 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've said it a hundred times already..this is NOT A PVP GAME. PVP was an afterthought..</p></blockquote><p>I think you selected the wrong server when you rolled bud.</p></blockquote><p>Way to single out one part of my post and use it completely out of context. Did I not say that PVP in this game used to be fun? I would not have rolled on the PVP server if I did not enjoy the competition.</p><p>I've been on PVP server since day one..How long have you been here?</p></blockquote><p>Day one, I was twinked and locked before twinked and locked was cool. Never even hit a cap on any toons until the last expac, and have leveled 3 toons from 10-50+ off straight pvp exp. I'm just saying in any context what you said makes it sound like you think that you should be the top PvPer because you "beat the current endgame content". This isn't some race to the top where if you kill scripted mobs you suddenly deserve a freebie at killing real people. Get over it.</p>

Stuckx
09-09-2010, 04:41 AM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've said it a hundred times already..this is NOT A PVP GAME. PVP was an afterthought..</p></blockquote><p>I think you selected the wrong server when you rolled bud.</p></blockquote><p>Way to single out one part of my post and use it completely out of context. Did I not say that PVP in this game used to be fun? I would not have rolled on the PVP server if I did not enjoy the competition.</p><p>I've been on PVP server since day one..How long have you been here?</p></blockquote><p>Day one, I was twinked and locked before twinked and locked was cool. Never even hit a cap on any toons until the last expac, and have leveled 3 toons from 10-50+ off straight pvp exp. I'm just saying in any context what you said makes it sound like you think that you should be the top PvPer because you "beat the current endgame content". This isn't some race to the top where if you kill scripted mobs you suddenly deserve a freebie at killing real people. Get over it.</p></blockquote><p>I could have told you the exact same thing when you were getting steamrolled by people who worked their butts off to get the gear. Get over it. Don't want to put in the effort to be the best? Fine..you can just avoid fighting the people that DO put in the effort to be the best. You and all the other special needs children who are too lazy to put any effort into the game can just go sit in your own little zone and cirle jerk each other.</p><p>The rest of us..The ones who want to enjoy the game as a whole,and use every aspect of it to further our character towards becoming the best..we're just going to leave. Guess what that means? Raiding guilds are going to disappear..Raiding guilds with 30+ dedicated players that are online far more often than the casual players are just going to stop playing because the game doesn't offer them anything at this point. 90% of the hardcore raiders on Nagafen do it for one reason..So that when we're not in that zone raiding,we can be out in open world PVP,steamrolling noobs like you.</p><p>If you're too lazy to earn gear by actually putting forth effort(This crap now requires absolutely no effort) then that's your own fault. The system in place penalizes people who want to enjoy the game as a whole by making their raid gear useless,and leaving them with no desire to do any PVE content,which makes up 90% of the game. When you take away 90% of a game..people lose interest fast. Would you play Modern Warfare 2 if they took away all the guns and left you with knives? Don't think so.</p>

Ralpmet
09-09-2010, 04:45 AM
<p>I don't get how you don't understand that these people are in instances 90% of the time they are playing.</p><p>Going raiding? Plant the flag.</p><p>Going afk? Chill in your GH next to the broker.</p><p>Bored between mobs on a raid? Don't leave the dungeon! Queue up for the first available bg and your raid won't even have to waste time travelling.</p><p>You can say I'm not a hardcore PvPer, but that makes absolutely no sense at all. I spend more time PvPing than you, but you deserve to win against me in a fight because you spent some time in an instance hidden away from the world?</p><p>Once again, get over it. Your logic is fail, and no one cares if you babies quit over it. It's been like this for a long time at this point, and it's not changing. You don't like it, there's a button to cancel your sub, find another game for yourself. No one wants to hear like 50 people that constantly whine that they aren't ezmoding true pvpers anymore.</p><p>edit: </p><p>Ps. I only leveled to cap once they fixed the imbalance of raid gear at endgame, as did quite a few people I used to roll around with. It took way to long to get this fixed and you whiners aren't going to ruin it now.</p>

Toxicz
09-09-2010, 10:41 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've said it a hundred times already..this is NOT A PVP GAME. PVP was an afterthought..</p></blockquote><p>I think you selected the wrong server when you rolled bud.</p></blockquote><p>Way to single out one part of my post and use it completely out of context. Did I not say that PVP in this game used to be fun? I would not have rolled on the PVP server if I did not enjoy the competition.</p><p>I've been on PVP server since day one..How long have you been here?</p></blockquote><p>Day one, I was twinked and locked before twinked and locked was cool. Never even hit a cap on any toons until the last expac, and have leveled 3 toons from 10-50+ off straight pvp exp. I'm just saying in any context what you said makes it sound like you think that you should be the top PvPer because you "beat the current endgame content". This isn't some race to the top where if you kill scripted mobs you suddenly deserve a freebie at killing real people. Get over it.</p></blockquote><p>If you're too lazy to earn gear by actually putting forth effort(This crap now requires absolutely no effort) then that's your own fault.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong> The system in place penalizes people who want to enjoy the game as a whole by making their raid gear useless,and leaving them with no desire to do any PVE content,which makes up 90% of the game. When you take away 90% of a game..people lose interest fast. Would you play Modern Warfare 2 if they took away all the guns and left you with knives? Don't think so.</strong></span></p></blockquote><p>This. In every expansion until now players who played on pvp; PVE'd to PVP, its that simple. In mid TSO fame was taken away, this was fine at first, it was a nice breather from HARDCORE pvp, but made the game stale after a few months. A little later into the expansion players complained about raid gear being so OP and that normal or "casuals" players couldn't compete with the raiders, so PVP gear was upgraded and made just as good as raid gear ( and NO I'm not talking about EVERY SLOT, just the armor, NOT the jewelery, the jewerly was already OP). The pvp gear change made it so players didn't have to raid to be competitive they just had to mass-zerg TG for a week and got a full set of gear. Ohilin I know your trying to make this game "fun" for everyone, but with how this system is now, theirs absolutely no way I could play this game JUST for pvp anymore.</p><p>I'm going to end this with the argument that raiders don't deserve to use there gear in pvp. Being a raider and killing some of the harder mobs in the expansion helps someone be a better player all around, may that be pvp or pve. It takes skill, coordination, team, and time to down the harder mobs in the expansions, and after doing this for awhile you learn your class and other classes in and out, which WILL help you in pvp. Now if you try to separate pvp and pve all together you will be hurting the server more than helping it, you make it easy for players to be "good" and lower the skill level needed to compete to with others. In RoK and TSO players wanted to raid to be able to compete in pvp and in turn they became better players for it in both pve and pvp. With how it is now, players don't need to have any skill to compete or play at the top level, they just need toughness.</p>

Duotang
09-09-2010, 01:22 PM
<p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Maybe Onyx was impossible to kill for you, but not for us. I think the problem were your skills, not the armor.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, you're obviously a complete [Removed for Content] and a habitual liar. Maybe, and I mean, MAYBE you killed them once, so you're hanging on to that fine thread, but don't start going off on the "we have skill and you don't" tangent. You don't even know who I am or who I represent.</p><p>The bottom line is that toughness on pvp gear is a good thing. Furthermore, I've never heard of even one of your toons. I'm fairly confident Onyx (and even me) have tossed you around like a dishrag on a regular basis.</p>

Darkor
09-09-2010, 02:05 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Maybe Onyx was impossible to kill for you, but not for us. I think the problem were your skills, not the armor.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, you're obviously a complete [Removed for Content] and a habitual liar. Maybe, and I mean, MAYBE you killed them once, so you're hanging on to that fine thread, but don't start going off on the "we have skill and you don't" tangent. You don't even know who I am or who I represent.</p><p>The bottom line is that toughness on pvp gear is a good thing. Furthermore, I've never heard of even one of your toons. I'm fairly confident Onyx (and even me) have tossed you around like a dishrag on a regular basis.</p></blockquote><p>Why do i need to know you? You said onyx were impossible to kill which tells me enough to say what i said. It was not the armor but your skills. Ive killed Brokensword 1 vs 1 and even Pudaan/Toxicz 2 vs 2. Ive killed plenty onyx before and im nowhere near end-raiding. So yeah, 99% of the problems in pvp usually sit in front of the pc <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

BlueEternal
09-09-2010, 02:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You don't even know who I am or who I represent.</blockquote><p>Maybe you should enlighten us as to who your toon is rather than hiding and talking smack while anon on these boards. I'm waiting to die of laughter when you finally tell us who you are.</p>

Darkor
09-09-2010, 02:42 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You don't even know who I am or who I represent.</blockquote><p>Maybe you should enlighten us as to who your toon is rather than hiding and talking smack while anon on these boards. I'm waiting to die of laughter when you finally tell us who you are.</p></blockquote><p>Well he tells me that he has never seen any of my chars but yet he hides himself behind a forumname. Its kinda priceless tbh.</p>

Sprin
09-09-2010, 09:01 PM
<p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You don't even know who I am or who I represent.</blockquote><p>Maybe you should enlighten us as to who your toon is rather than hiding and talking smack while anon on these boards. I'm waiting to die of laughter when you finally tell us who you are.</p></blockquote><p>Well he tells me that he has never seen any of my chars but yet he hides himself behind a forumname. Its kinda priceless tbh.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe he likes LOL'ng at people who think that a video game name makes them cool, like you guys obviously think... </p><p>Maybe he should go drive slowly through a highschool campus parking lot with his windows down and his Ace of Base cranking to prove how "cool" he is with you guys... thats obviously how you define "cool"</p>

Charmnevac
09-09-2010, 10:36 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You don't even know who I am or who I represent.</blockquote><p>Maybe you should enlighten us as to who your toon is rather than hiding and talking smack while anon on these boards. I'm waiting to die of laughter when you finally tell us who you are.</p></blockquote><p>Well he tells me that he has never seen any of my chars but yet he hides himself behind a forumname. Its kinda priceless tbh.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe he likes LOL'ng at people who think that a video game name makes them cool, like you guys obviously think... </p><p>Maybe he should go drive slowly through a highschool campus parking lot with his windows down and his Ace of Base cranking to prove how "cool" he is with you guys... thats obviously how you define "cool"</p></blockquote><p>Maybe he's Oobo? bah idk</p>

Aleste
09-09-2010, 10:52 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've said it a hundred times already..this is NOT A PVP GAME. PVP was an afterthought..</p></blockquote><p>I think you selected the wrong server when you rolled bud.</p></blockquote><p>Way to single out one part of my post and use it completely out of context. Did I not say that PVP in this game used to be fun? I would not have rolled on the PVP server if I did not enjoy the competition.</p><p>I've been on PVP server since day one..How long have you been here?</p></blockquote><p>Day one, I was twinked and locked before twinked and locked was cool. Never even hit a cap on any toons until the last expac, and have leveled 3 toons from 10-50+ off straight pvp exp. I'm just saying in any context what you said makes it sound like you think that you should be the top PvPer because you "beat the current endgame content". This isn't some race to the top where if you kill scripted mobs you suddenly deserve a freebie at killing real people. Get over it.</p></blockquote><p>If you're too lazy to earn gear by actually putting forth effort(This crap now requires absolutely no effort) then that's your own fault.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong> The system in place penalizes people who want to enjoy the game as a whole by making their raid gear useless,and leaving them with no desire to do any PVE content,which makes up 90% of the game. When you take away 90% of a game..people lose interest fast. Would you play Modern Warfare 2 if they took away all the guns and left you with knives? Don't think so.</strong></span></p></blockquote><p>This. In every expansion until now players who played on pvp; PVE'd to PVP, its that simple. In mid TSO fame was taken away, this was fine at first, it was a nice breather from HARDCORE pvp, but made the game stale after a few months. A little later into the expansion players complained about raid gear being so OP and that normal or "casuals" players couldn't compete with the raiders, so PVP gear was upgraded and made just as good as raid gear ( and NO I'm not talking about EVERY SLOT, just the armor, NOT the jewelery, the jewerly was already OP). The pvp gear change made it so players didn't have to raid to be competitive they just had to mass-zerg TG for a week and got a full set of gear. Ohilin I know your trying to make this game "fun" for everyone, but with how this system is now, theirs absolutely no way I could play this game JUST for pvp anymore.</p><p><strong>I'm going to end this with the argument that raiders don't deserve to use there gear in pvp. Being a raider and killing some of the harder mobs in the expansion helps someone be a better player all around, may that be pvp or pve. It takes skill, coordination, team, and time to down the harder mobs in the expansions, and after doing this for awhile you learn your class and other classes in and out, which WILL help you in pvp. Now if you try to separate pvp and pve all together you will be hurting the server more than helping it, you make it easy for players to be "good" and lower the skill level needed to compete to with others. In RoK and TSO players wanted to raid to be able to compete in pvp and in turn they became better players for it in both pve and pvp. With how it is now, players don't need to have any skill to compete or play at the top level, they just need toughness.</strong></p></blockquote><p>I agree</p>

Sprin
09-10-2010, 01:45 AM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><strong> With how it is now, players don't need to have any skill to compete or play at the top level, they just need toughness.</strong></p></blockquote><p>I agree</p></blockquote><p>That is hogwash... because 2 players going at it with toughness is the EXACT same thing as both toons WITHOUT toughness.. the difference is the length of the fights... which, to be perfectly honest, makes PVP'rs MORE skillfull then they had to be in the past..</p><p>In the past, a Brig sees an even con player... he pops his temps and WHAMMY, dead player with one CC and an auto attack and procs...  now with toughness that same player has to learn to kill that person in another way... he has to adapt to that person actually attacking them back...  he has to learn his class and the enemy class MORE then what he used to...</p><p>THe true culprit is the CC nerf... there is no way to use CC's to your advantage, which is part of many toons arsenal of offensive and defensive tactics...</p><p>Now, that Brig who comes up and tosses up a CC on someone, (in a world with only toughness), would be able to get some shots off, and then have to move onto the next attack and time some good knockdowns and some other things....</p><p>With Toughness AND CC nerfs / immunties / cures for everyone... that Brig tosses a CC up on someone, who instantly cures it and now its a fight with no CC's and toughness..</p><p>Leave Toughness and revert back to old CC's and it will be a perfect fix...</p><p>THat way you could still lock someone down long enough to maybe chew through their wards, and the only way they could cure it, is if they actually prepared and brought some pots or were one of the few classes with the ability to immune / cure the CC's while in combat..</p>

Aleste
09-10-2010, 05:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><strong> With how it is now, players don't need to have any skill to compete or play at the top level, they just need toughness.</strong></p></blockquote><p>I agree</p></blockquote><p>That is hogwash... because 2 players going at it with toughness is the EXACT same thing as both toons WITHOUT toughness.. the difference is the length of the fights... which, to be perfectly honest, makes PVP'rs MORE skillfull then they had to be in the past..</p><p><strong>In the past, a Brig sees an even con player... he pops his temps and WHAMMY, dead player with one CC and an auto attack and procs...</strong>  now with toughness that same player has to learn to kill that person in another way... he has to adapt to that person actually attacking them back...  <strong>he has to learn his class and the enemy class MORE then what he used to...</strong></p><p><strong>THe true culprit is the CC nerf... there is no way to use CC's to your advantage, which is part of many toons arsenal of offensive and defensive tactics...</strong></p><p><strong>Now, that Brig who comes up and tosses up a CC on someone, (in a world with only toughness), would be able to get some shots off, and then have to move onto the next attack and time some good knockdowns and some other things....</strong></p><p>With Toughness AND CC nerfs / immunties / cures for everyone... that Brig tosses a CC up on someone, who instantly cures it and now its a fight with no CC's and toughness..</p><p>Leave Toughness and revert back to old CC's and it will be a perfect fix...</p><p>THat way you could still lock someone down long enough to maybe chew through their wards, and the only way they could cure it, is if they actually prepared and brought some pots or were one of the few classes with the ability to immune / cure the CC's while in combat..</p></blockquote><p>1. In the past you mean t7 right? If you dont know how to pot cc's well you need more help than toughness provides.</p><p>2. While I agree with cc nerfs are bad even before the nerfs there were a ton of ways to counter cc's.</p><p>3. Against what? While that may work against another scout it doesnt work agains most healers, tanks or socrs. Im going to give you one clue as to why. Starts with a T!</p><p>Basicaly with Toughness and all the damage reductions any class that wards or can heal themsleves on a regular basis is op. How can you not see that? Some classes are left out to dry even with toughness but some classes become gods with it. Therefor it should be removed and a better system needs to be used to balance classes.</p><p>two toons fighting with toughness is not the same as two toons fighting without it. You actualy have more control over shorter fights and its more heat of the moment. 10-20 min fights are not fun. It doesnt take skill to win anymore it takes power procs and heals. People lose 1v1s by running out of power tbh. Ive watched two pallys fight for 35 mins.. two zerkers for 22mins.</p><p>How does a pvp system where everyone is immune to everything and people bearly damage each other encourage learning other classes? and knowing your class better? Pvp w/toughness comes down to random procs or who gets borred and runs away.</p><p>I dont think people get it Toughness makes the disparity between classes even more prevalent, Rather than fix all the classes in pvp Toughness just makes everyone look like they can take a hit better. Pvp is being adjusted by procs and lame added stats its a backdoor way of fixing game mechanics that are seriously broken.</p>

Darkor
09-10-2010, 05:21 PM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><strong> With how it is now, players don't need to have any skill to compete or play at the top level, they just need toughness.</strong></p></blockquote><p>I agree</p></blockquote><p>That is hogwash... because 2 players going at it with toughness is the EXACT same thing as both toons WITHOUT toughness.. the difference is the length of the fights... which, to be perfectly honest, makes PVP'rs MORE skillfull then they had to be in the past..</p><p><strong>In the past, a Brig sees an even con player... he pops his temps and WHAMMY, dead player with one CC and an auto attack and procs...</strong>  now with toughness that same player has to learn to kill that person in another way... he has to adapt to that person actually attacking them back...  <strong>he has to learn his class and the enemy class MORE then what he used to...</strong></p><p><strong>THe true culprit is the CC nerf... there is no way to use CC's to your advantage, which is part of many toons arsenal of offensive and defensive tactics...</strong></p><p><strong>Now, that Brig who comes up and tosses up a CC on someone, (in a world with only toughness), would be able to get some shots off, and then have to move onto the next attack and time some good knockdowns and some other things....</strong></p><p>With Toughness AND CC nerfs / immunties / cures for everyone... that Brig tosses a CC up on someone, who instantly cures it and now its a fight with no CC's and toughness..</p><p>Leave Toughness and revert back to old CC's and it will be a perfect fix...</p><p>THat way you could still lock someone down long enough to maybe chew through their wards, and the only way they could cure it, is if they actually prepared and brought some pots or were one of the few classes with the ability to immune / cure the CC's while in combat..</p></blockquote><p>1. In the past you mean t7 right? If you dont know how to pot cc's well you need more help than toughness provides.</p><p>2. While I agree with cc nerfs are bad even before the nerfs there were a ton of ways to counter cc's.</p><p>3. Against what? While that may work against another scout it doesnt work agains most healers, tanks or socrs. Im going to give you one clue as to why. Starts with a T!</p><p>Basicaly with Toughness and all the damage reductions any class that wards or can heal themsleves on a regular basis is op. How can you not see that? Some classes are left out to dry even with toughness but some classes become gods with it. Therefor it should be removed and a better system needs to be used to balance classes.</p><p>two toons fighting with toughness is not the same as two toons fighting without it. You actualy have more control over shorter fights and its more heat of the moment. 10-20 min fights are not fun. It doesnt take skill to win anymore it takes power procs and heals. People lose 1v1s by running out of power tbh. Ive watched two pallys fight for 35 mins.. two zerkers for 22mins.</p><p>How does a pvp system where everyone is immune to everything and people bearly damage each other encourage learning other classes? and knowing your class better? Pvp w/toughness comes down to random procs or who gets borred and runs away.</p><p>I dont think people get it Toughness makes the disparity between classes even more prevalent, Rather than fix all the classes in pvp Toughness just makes everyone look like they can take a hit better. Pvp is being adjusted by procs and lame added stats its a backdoor way of fixing game mechanics that are seriously broken.</p></blockquote><p>exactly</p>

Neskonlith
09-10-2010, 05:26 PM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dont think people get it Toughness makes the disparity between classes even more prevalent, Rather than fix all the classes in pvp Toughness just makes everyone look like they can take a hit better. Pvp is being adjusted by procs and lame added stats its a backdoor way of fixing game mechanics that are seriously broken.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You post as if Toughness is not going to be adjusted, despite the fact SOE has already stated a few times that Toughness will be changed to reduce some of the issues you are exaggerating.</span></p>

Sprin
09-11-2010, 01:07 AM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>1. In the past you mean t7 right? If you dont know how to pot cc's well you need more help than toughness provides.</p><p>2. While I agree with cc nerfs are bad even before the nerfs there were a ton of ways to counter cc's.</p><p>3. Against what? While that may work against another scout it doesnt work agains most healers, tanks or socrs. Im going to give you one clue as to why. Starts with a T!</p><p>Basicaly with Toughness and all the damage reductions any class that wards or can heal themsleves on a regular basis is op. How can you not see that? Some classes are left out to dry even with toughness but some classes become gods with it. Therefor it should be removed and a better system needs to be used to balance classes.</p><p>two toons fighting with toughness is not the same as two toons fighting without it. You actualy have more control over shorter fights and its more heat of the moment. 10-20 min fights are not fun. It doesnt take skill to win anymore it takes power procs and heals. People lose 1v1s by running out of power tbh. Ive watched two pallys fight for 35 mins.. two zerkers for 22mins.</p><p>How does a pvp system where everyone is immune to everything and people bearly damage each other encourage learning other classes? and knowing your class better? Pvp w/toughness comes down to random procs or who gets borred and runs away.</p><p>I dont think people get it Toughness makes the disparity between classes even more prevalent, Rather than fix all the classes in pvp Toughness just makes everyone look like they can take a hit better. Pvp is being adjusted by procs and lame added stats its a backdoor way of fixing game mechanics that are seriously broken.</p></blockquote><p>1.) Pots.....  vs certain classes, pots meant nothing other then you die in 2 seconds while attempting to cast a spell or combat art that WASN"T greyed out..</p><p>What game did you play... T7? lol... up until toughness was introduced POTs did nothing but either what i said in 1.) or prolonged the fight exactly 10 seconds until you were locked down and burnt to nothing after it wore off... so instead of a 2 second fight you saw 12 second fights... most burns last 30+ seconds and recast on most CC's are less then 10 seconds or there are plenty of other CC's where that one came from, pots last 10 secdonds, so if you were gonna die in the first 2 seconds, you just prolonged your life, AT MOST, the 10 second duration of the pot...</p><p>2.) Ton of ways? really? like Pots and Godspells... see 1.) for pots myth busted... god spells are gone too... so that leaves the few classes that have the ability to cure or be immune to the CC's while in combat</p><p>3.) Toughness is only that powerfull if you cant use CC's... any healer and any tank can cast anything they want all the time.. because they are immune and can cure CC's... if you can't lock a druid down for 15 seconds, and they can cast anything they want to all the time, of course you aren't going to be able to beat them...   CC's are the culprit, not Toughness... toughness just made fights last longer then 2 seconds... CC nerfs and cure / immunity gear made it impossible to lock anyone down enough to burn through the toughness...</p><p>blame what needs to be blamed... nerfed CC's...</p><p>back before toughness ever existed, what would you do to kill a group? Try to lock healers down with CC's and burn everyone else... if that healer was a Templar and popped sanctuary, you were pretty SOL until it wore off... but that was a strategy...</p><p>Now, no matter what the healers class, or what any class is, you cant lock anyone down, because every healer can be immune to every CC and cure it, and immune to inturrupts...</p><p>Blame what needs to be blamed... the over nerfing of CC's and the cure / immune to CC gear avail to everyone..  Toughness needs to stay to make it so we dont have 2 second fights anymore..... CC's need to be unnerfed so people can use strategic CC's to burn down a full group where they cant be burnt down now because of the CC nerf</p>

Jab
09-11-2010, 03:48 PM
<p>Toughness</p><p>Loads more HP</p><p>CC nerf</p><p>All of these 3 things helped/made it worse.</p><p>Its the same old story.</p><p>When ever we hear dev´s talking about their job they mention that they dont want to change too many things at once or else they cant see what is doing what exactly.</p><p>But in reality this is not the case with pvp due to its suffering at the hands of pve updates and pvp updates at the same time.</p><p>There is jus too much clusterf..k to make things transparent.</p>

Aleste
09-11-2010, 08:09 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>1. In the past you mean t7 right? If you dont know how to pot cc's well you need more help than toughness provides.</p><p>2. While I agree with cc nerfs are bad even before the nerfs there were a ton of ways to counter cc's.</p><p>3. Against what? While that may work against another scout it doesnt work agains most healers, tanks or socrs. Im going to give you one clue as to why. Starts with a T!</p><p>Basicaly with Toughness and all the damage reductions any class that wards or can heal themsleves on a regular basis is op. How can you not see that? Some classes are left out to dry even with toughness but some classes become gods with it. Therefor it should be removed and a better system needs to be used to balance classes.</p><p>two toons fighting with toughness is not the same as two toons fighting without it. You actualy have more control over shorter fights and its more heat of the moment. 10-20 min fights are not fun. It doesnt take skill to win anymore it takes power procs and heals. People lose 1v1s by running out of power tbh. Ive watched two pallys fight for 35 mins.. two zerkers for 22mins.</p><p><strong>How does a pvp system where everyone is immune to everything and people bearly damage each other encourage learning other classes? </strong>and knowing your class better? Pvp w/toughness comes down to random procs or who gets borred and runs away.</p><p>I dont think people get it Toughness makes the disparity between classes even more prevalent, Rather than fix all the classes in pvp Toughness just makes everyone look like they can take a hit better. Pvp is being adjusted by procs and lame added stats its a backdoor way of fixing game mechanics that are seriously broken.</p></blockquote><p><strong>1.) Pots.....  vs certain classes, pots meant nothing other then you die in 2 seconds while attempting to cast a spell or combat art that WASN"T greyed out..</strong></p><p>What game did you play... T7? lol... up until toughness was introduced POTs did nothing but either what i said in 1.) or prolonged the fight exactly 10 seconds until you were locked down and burnt to nothing after it wore off... so instead of a 2 second fight you saw 12 second fights... most burns last 30+ seconds and recast on most CC's are less then 10 seconds or there are plenty of other CC's where that one came from, pots last 10 secdonds, so if you were gonna die in the first 2 seconds, you just prolonged your life, AT MOST, the 10 second duration of the pot...</p><p>2.) Ton of ways? really? like Pots and Godspells... see 1.) for pots myth busted... god spells are gone too... so that leaves the few classes that have the ability to cure or be immune to the CC's while in combat</p><p>3.) Toughness is only that powerfull if you cant use CC's... any healer and any tank can cast anything they want all the time.. because they are immune and can cure CC's... if you can't lock a druid down for 15 seconds, and they can cast anything they want to all the time, of course you aren't going to be able to beat them...   CC's are the culprit, not Toughness... toughness just made fights last longer then 2 seconds... CC nerfs and cure / immunity gear made it impossible to lock anyone down enough to burn through the toughness...</p><p>blame what needs to be blamed... nerfed CC's...</p><p>back before toughness ever existed, what would you do to kill a group? Try to lock healers down with CC's and burn everyone else... if that healer was a Templar and popped sanctuary, you were pretty SOL until it wore off... but that was a strategy...</p><p>Now, no matter what the healers class, or what any class is, you cant lock anyone down, because every healer can be immune to every CC and cure it, and immune to inturrupts...</p><p><strong>Blame what needs to be blamed... the over nerfing of CC's and the cure / immune to CC gear avail to everyone..  Toughness needs to stay to make it so we dont have 2 second fights anymore..... CC's need to be unnerfed so people can use strategic CC's to burn down a full group where they cant be burnt down now because of the CC nerf</strong></p></blockquote><p>Not sure what classes your fighting but.. if i couldnt get to them in the time a pot provided and use my own cc's i deserved what was comming to me.</p><p>As for the seconded bolded portion of your comment refer to "<strong>How does a pvp system where everyone is immune to everything and people bearly damage each other encourage learning other classes</strong>?". But its not just nefred CC's tho i agree that and immunities are a part of it. I Feel damage reduction and some procs are a larger portion of it. </p><p>I know godspells have been taken out of pvp.. Have been for a while and with good reason.</p><p>Btw check out signets they do prevent all types of cc and there are items that make you immune to diffrent types of cc. Just have to know where to look for them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

BlueEternal
09-15-2010, 12:43 PM
<p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p>

Jab
09-15-2010, 12:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>I love toughness.</p><p>Finally i can pvp and watch tv at the same time..J/k ofc</p><p>What was the grp makeup btw ? im just curious</p>

BlueEternal
09-15-2010, 12:57 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>I love toughness.</p><p>Finally i can pvp and watch tv at the same time..J/k ofc</p><p>What was the grp makeup btw ? im just curious</p></blockquote><p>2 SK's, Paladin, Inquis,Defiler, Troub vs Mystic,Inquis,Troub,Ranger,SK,Illy</p>

Jab
09-15-2010, 01:07 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>I love toughness.</p><p>Finally i can pvp and watch tv at the same time..J/k ofc</p><p>What was the grp makeup btw ? im just curious</p></blockquote><p>2 SK's, Paladin, Inquis,Defiler, Troub vs Mystic,Inquis,Troub,Ranger,SK,Illy</p></blockquote><p>Phew.</p><p>That is some nice defensive setups.</p><p>I guess with pow regen being every mans job now, those sort of makeups will always get that outcome.Atleast if u have competent players in above avg gear.</p><p>Still it does suck..</p><p>Thx for info</p>

BlueEternal
09-15-2010, 01:32 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>I love toughness.</p><p>Finally i can pvp and watch tv at the same time..J/k ofc</p><p>What was the grp makeup btw ? im just curious</p></blockquote><p>2 SK's, Paladin, Inquis,Defiler, Troub vs Mystic,Inquis,Troub,Ranger,SK,Illy</p></blockquote><p>Phew.</p><p>That is some nice defensive setups.</p><p>I guess with pow regen being every mans job now, those sort of makeups will always get that outcome.Atleast if u have competent players in above avg gear.</p><p>Still it does suck..</p><p>Thx for info</p></blockquote><p>They were very defensive but people used to run these setups in ROK/TSO and there was always a winner in the end. Now it's just a clickfest that ends when people get bored or have irl stuff to do.</p>

PeaSy1
09-15-2010, 02:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>I love toughness.</p><p>Finally i can pvp and watch tv at the same time..J/k ofc</p><p>What was the grp makeup btw ? im just curious</p></blockquote><p>2 SK's, Paladin, Inquis,Defiler, Troub vs Mystic,Inquis,Troub,Ranger,SK,Illy</p></blockquote><p>Phew.</p><p>That is some nice defensive setups.</p><p>I guess with pow regen being every mans job now, those sort of makeups will always get that outcome.Atleast if u have competent players in above avg gear.</p><p>Still it does suck..</p><p>Thx for info</p></blockquote><p>They were very defensive but people used to run these setups in ROK/TSO and there was always a winner in the end. Now it's just a clickfest that ends when people get bored or have irl stuff to do.</p></blockquote><p>The only time u ever saw a group like that was just a pickup group (and more than likely half that group was undergeared).....was no guild groups of sorts ever like that 3 crusader 2 healer. I woulda just outa left the fight knowing the premade was gonna look like that heh.</p>

BlueEternal
09-15-2010, 02:08 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>I love toughness.</p><p>Finally i can pvp and watch tv at the same time..J/k ofc</p><p>What was the grp makeup btw ? im just curious</p></blockquote><p>2 SK's, Paladin, Inquis,Defiler, Troub vs Mystic,Inquis,Troub,Ranger,SK,Illy</p></blockquote><p>Phew.</p><p>That is some nice defensive setups.</p><p>I guess with pow regen being every mans job now, those sort of makeups will always get that outcome.Atleast if u have competent players in above avg gear.</p><p>Still it does suck..</p><p>Thx for info</p></blockquote><p>They were very defensive but people used to run these setups in ROK/TSO and there was always a winner in the end. Now it's just a clickfest that ends when people get bored or have irl stuff to do.</p></blockquote><p>The only time u ever saw a group like that was just a pickup group (and more than likely half that group was undergeared).....was no guild groups of sorts ever like that 3 crusader 2 healer. I woulda just outa left the fight knowing the premade was gonna look like that heh.</p></blockquote><p>Oh i'm sorry, that mustve been Lilwhite being invited to the groups with Sacros,Kaily,Elwin,Arieneth, and Heelo :X</p>

Thinwizzy
09-15-2010, 03:39 PM
<p>Both group setups are nothing brand new, nor have they been for some time now.  Not really sure why you would argue against that dudoes.</p>

Notsovilepriest
09-15-2010, 05:08 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Both group setups are nothing brand new, nor have they been for some time now.  Not really sure why you would argue against that dudoes.</p></blockquote><p>because he is Dudoes, thats why, he needs some attention for lack of other things <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

PeaSy1
09-16-2010, 04:36 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Both group setups are nothing brand new, nor have they been for some time now.  Not really sure why you would argue against that dudoes.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ccffff;">i said nothing about it being somethin brand new i just gave you the terms as to which a group like that existed and died as naroc stated earlier and that name group u stated was simply a zerg smash group nothing to do with this "</span><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #ccffff;">people used to run these setups in ROK/TSO and there was always a winner in the end" cause a group like that would have never lost then and should never lose now (barring some gear or character progression equality/deficiency)</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ccffff;">and dont say clickfest psylum might here you /hide</span></p>

Shrag
09-16-2010, 04:45 PM
<p>dudoes was never invited to any 6v6's that mattered in TSO so he never saw how frequently those same exact group setups were used, there were always people spiking and way more then 4 deaths, even if the fights lasted 10-15minutes.</p>

Zacarus
09-16-2010, 06:59 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>All 12 players in full bg gear?  Difficult to draw a conclusion based on lack of data.  Those two groups could have had no toughness gear, or all toughness gear, or a blend.  Should a fight of evenly balanced players never end in a draw?</p>

Taldier
09-16-2010, 10:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>All 12 players in full bg gear?  Difficult to draw a conclusion based on lack of data.  Those two groups could have had no toughness gear, or all toughness gear, or a blend.  Should a fight of evenly balanced players never end in a draw?</p></blockquote><p>A 12 person fight should have way too many variables involved for there to be a reasonable probability of it being perfectly balanced between the two sides indefinitely.  It certainly wasnt a remotely likely occurance before.</p><p>Unless of course the game has been simplified to the extent that whether or not both groups are in full sets of their cookie cutter toughness gear is in fact the only variable that actually still matters.....oh...wait a sec...</p><p>And is it really necessary to question whether someone has full pvp gear?  Even the alts of non-pvpers have pvp gear by now.</p>

Jab
09-17-2010, 10:10 AM
<p>If the game was balanced so that u could build very defensive premades and still find a winner then we have to ask what will happen when non defensive teams go at it.the fight is over before u can say "ppl on track" due to massive amounts of dmg needed to kill the defensive team to begin with.It spills over onto the less defensive premade.Hope i made my self clear here.</p><p>Something has to give at the end of the day..</p>

Shangu
09-17-2010, 05:51 PM
<p>Remove toughness.</p><p>That is all.</p>

Sprin
09-17-2010, 06:58 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>All 12 players in full bg gear?  Difficult to draw a conclusion based on lack of data.  Those two groups could have had no toughness gear, or all toughness gear, or a blend.  Should a fight of evenly balanced players never end in a draw?</p></blockquote><p>A 12 person fight should have way too many variables involved for there to be a reasonable probability of it being perfectly balanced between the two sides indefinitely.  It certainly wasnt a remotely likely occurance before.</p><p>Unless of course the game has been simplified to the extent that whether or not both groups are in full sets of their cookie cutter toughness gear is in fact the only variable that actually still matters.....oh...wait a sec...</p><p>And is it really necessary to question whether someone has full pvp gear?  Even the alts of non-pvpers have pvp gear by now.</p></blockquote><p>I find the source of this extended fight is the inability for CC"s to do anything anymore... back before the CC nerf, a good enchanter or trouby could lock certain players down or charm certain players with key mez's / cc's to others and that would cause the downfall of the group... now, everyone is immune to everything and has cures for everything and even if they dont, 8 seconds isn't enough to do anything to anyone, especially with group cures being "cure alls" instead of specific types of cures</p><p>Lets look at what is the main source of the problem...</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">1.)</span></span></strong> CC's being nerfed</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">2.)</span></span></strong> CC's cure / immunity gear avail to everyone</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">3.)</span></span></strong> Group cures curing all types of ailments instead of 2 specific types</p><ul><li>IE: an arcane mez wasn't getting cured off with a Druid group cure before, whereas now it will.... so even if the healer is taunt locked to a tank, a simple group cure will cure that mez right off, whereas before certain healers had to do direct cures to rid the arcane mez / charm</li><li>This takes away the coordination of tuants / mez / charm / cures in group chat / vent... strategies are out the window now that any and everything can be cured instantly now.... </li></ul><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">4.)</span></span></strong> Steadfast for all classes... now with a PVP adorn, all healer classes are essentially immune to inturrupts, whereas only 2 could be before.... so the already insta-cast heal class of the druids or the very OP wards of defilers / mystics cant be inturrupted....</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">5.)</span></span></strong> Lifetap gear:   Fatal Lifetap and similar items, such as Symphonic Allure... give the ability for any scout / fighter class to spam as much attacks / CA's as they can and heal themselves up just as fast... leaving the job of the healer mostly to just cure ailments (see how easy that is in #3 above)...</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">6.)</span></span></strong> Power gear:  Whereas you used to need a well geared enchanter in the group to keep the group full of power (and in turn had to keep that enchanter alive) now every class can get gear that keeps them topped out on power indefinately, with no need for an alive enchanter...  essentially every group has a well geared and "good" enchanter with them, just through gear..</p><ul><li>Scouts: used to have to decide on doing less damage with Mental breach or have an enchanter in group, now there are a plethora of power proc items avail to them... </li><li>Healers: Tons of power proc items out there (most have been nerfed) but they still do a tremendous amount to not only them, but to their whole group</li><li>Tanks: LOL:  Soul Reaper's Hoop... need I say more? Most OP power proc item of all time... 100% power for any tank 100% of the time</li><li>Mages: same procs avail to scouts are avail to mages</li></ul><p>You guys want to throw blame on toughness... all toughness did is prevent all fights from lasting 2 seconds... the above listed items added to toughness is what made everlasting fights.....  </p><p>A "solid" group no longer has to be certain classes that were good at what they did... now a "solid" group is any number of classes with certain gear and the inability for any CC class to actually do anything substantial with those CC's</p><p>Open your eyes kids... stop the broken tape about "toughness"... toughness isnt the issue. the above items are...</p>

Aleste
09-18-2010, 09:12 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>46 minute 6 v 6 fight called a draw only because it was 10 minutes until raids. 4 deaths total.I love toughness.</p></blockquote><p>All 12 players in full bg gear?  Difficult to draw a conclusion based on lack of data.  Those two groups could have had no toughness gear, or all toughness gear, or a blend.  Should a fight of evenly balanced players never end in a draw?</p></blockquote><p>A 12 person fight should have way too many variables involved for there to be a reasonable probability of it being perfectly balanced between the two sides indefinitely.  It certainly wasnt a remotely likely occurance before.</p><p>Unless of course the game has been simplified to the extent that whether or not both groups are in full sets of their cookie cutter toughness gear is in fact the only variable that actually still matters.....oh...wait a sec...</p><p>And is it really necessary to question whether someone has full pvp gear?  Even the alts of non-pvpers have pvp gear by now.</p></blockquote><p>I find the source of this extended fight is the inability for CC"s to do anything anymore... back before the CC nerf, a good enchanter or trouby could lock certain players down or charm certain players with key mez's / cc's to others and that would cause the downfall of the group... now, everyone is immune to everything and has cures for everything and even if they dont,<strong><em> 8 seconds isn't enough to do anything to anyone</em></strong>, especially with group cures being "cure alls" instead of specific types of cures</p><p>Lets look at what is the main source of the problem...</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">1.)</span></span></strong> CC's being nerfed</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">2.)</span></span></strong> CC's cure / immunity gear avail to everyone</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">3.)</span></span></strong> Group cures curing all types of ailments instead of 2 specific types</p><ul><li>IE: an arcane mez wasn't getting cured off with a Druid group cure before, whereas now it will.... so even if the healer is taunt locked to a tank, a simple group cure will cure that mez right off, whereas before certain healers had to do direct cures to rid the arcane mez / charm</li><li>This takes away the coordination of tuants / mez / charm / cures in group chat / vent... strategies are out the window now that any and everything can be cured instantly now.... </li></ul><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">4.)</span></span></strong> Steadfast for all classes... now with a PVP adorn, all healer classes are essentially immune to inturrupts, whereas only 2 could be before.... so the already insta-cast heal class of the druids or the very OP wards of defilers / mystics cant be inturrupted....</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">5.)</span></span></strong> Lifetap gear:   Fatal Lifetap and similar items, such as Symphonic Allure... give the ability for any scout / fighter class to spam as much attacks / CA's as they can and heal themselves up just as fast... leaving the job of the healer mostly to just cure ailments (see how easy that is in #3 above)...</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">6.)</span></span></strong> Power gear:  Whereas you used to need a well geared enchanter in the group to keep the group full of power (and in turn had to keep that enchanter alive) now every class can get gear that keeps them topped out on power indefinately, with no need for an alive enchanter...  essentially every group has a well geared and "good" enchanter with them, just through gear..</p><ul><li>Scouts: used to have to decide on doing less damage with Mental breach or have an enchanter in group, now there are a plethora of power proc items avail to them... </li><li>Healers: Tons of power proc items out there (most have been nerfed) but they still do a tremendous amount to not only them, but to their whole group</li><li>Tanks: LOL:  Soul Reaper's Hoop... need I say more? Most OP power proc item of all time... 100% power for any tank 100% of the time</li><li>Mages: same procs avail to scouts are avail to mages</li></ul><p>You guys want to throw blame on toughness... all toughness did is prevent all fights from lasting 2 seconds... the above listed items added to toughness is what made everlasting fights.....  </p><p>A "solid" group no longer has to be certain classes that were good at what they did... now a "solid" group is any number of classes with certain gear and the inability for any CC class to actually do anything substantial with those CC's</p><p>Open your eyes kids... stop the broken tape about "<strong>toughness</strong>"... toughness isnt the issue. the above items are...</p></blockquote><p>I highlighted the important parts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. If for some reason two members of one team got to focus fire someone for 8 seconds.. that person should be quite dead imo. Toughness is a problem when coupled with pvp crit mit, heroic resistance x and several of the things you mentioned above. I love how people hold on to toughness becuase they would be roadkill without it. All toughness does is give anyone a chance to live alot longer than they should (and im not saying fights should last 1 second). im saying pvp fights last on advrage 5-15 mins for 1v1s if both toons have full toughness gear. Another point ill make here (again) if thoughness is pvp only. Pvp gear should only be useable in pvp not instances or any other pve at all. If i have to macro into pvp gear in open world someone in pvp gear should see no benifit in pve from the gear at all. They should die to greens con mobs.. I mean lets make it fair.</p>

Notsovilepriest
09-18-2010, 09:30 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">4.)</span></span></strong> Steadfast for all classes... now with a PVP adorn, all healer classes are essentially immune to inturrupts, whereas only 2 could be before.... so the already insta-cast heal class of the druids or the very OP wards of defilers / mystics cant be inturrupted....</p></blockquote><p>Did you even read that adorn? It's got a proc limiter that makes it total garbage and doesn't even come close to comparing to steadfast. Also Lol @ very OP wards too, shows how much you know about PvP in this game.</p>

Charmnevac
09-18-2010, 10:48 PM
<p>Toughness makes longer fights. Longer fights = more procs. More procs = lfights possibly resulting in luck being the cause for the winner ( Heal procs for scouts for ex. ). You're ignorant if you think toughness is okay.</p>

Crismorn
09-18-2010, 11:20 PM
<p>Toughness is the issue that needs to be fixed, not cc immunity.</p><p>If you want to get rid of cc immunity feel free, but that will not fix anything.</p>

Crismorn
09-18-2010, 11:21 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">4.)</span></span></strong> Steadfast for all classes... now with a PVP adorn, all healer classes are essentially immune to inturrupts, whereas only 2 could be before.... so the already insta-cast heal class of the druids or the very OP wards of defilers / mystics cant be inturrupted....</p></blockquote><p>Did you even read that adorn? It's got a proc limiter that makes it total garbage and doesn't even come close to comparing to steadfast. Also Lol @ very OP wards too, shows how much you know about PvP in this game.</p></blockquote><p>ghetto really needs to understand how this game works before posting imo.</p>

Aleste
09-19-2010, 12:13 AM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">4.)</span></span></strong> Steadfast for all classes... now with a PVP adorn, all healer classes are essentially immune to inturrupts, whereas only 2 could be before.... so the already insta-cast heal class of the druids or the very OP wards of defilers / mystics cant be inturrupted....</p></blockquote><p>Did you even read that adorn? It's got a proc limiter that makes it total garbage and doesn't even come close to comparing to steadfast. Also Lol @ very OP wards too, shows how much you know about PvP in this game.</p></blockquote><p>ghetto really needs to understand how this game works before posting imo.</p></blockquote><p>Im actualy starting to agree with you.. Weird <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Sprin
09-19-2010, 01:31 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also Lol @ very OP wards too, shows how much you know about PvP in this game.</p></blockquote><p>LOL, im sorry you suck at playing your mystic / defiler..... maybe you should roll an assassin...   I guess PVP not being scripted enough to be able to have macros for when your ACT timers ding at you is too hard for you? </p><p>And everyone with toughness or nobody with thoughness... the only way anyone used to die in a stacked PVP group was with a well timed CC.... and even then it was really hard...  now there is no chance of even that...</p><p>You guys like to compare apples and oranges .....  stacked PVP group vs stacked PVP group would pretty much go on forever without CC's ... take those out of the equation back in ROK / TSO days, and you would have had never ending fights as well...</p><p>You guys are so blinded by your hatred of toughness and your hatred of people who dont fight scripted mobs 25 hours a week that you only want to hear what you want to hear.... Oilhin saying "Ok raiders, you get it back, i give up... go out with your OP raid gear and WTFOMFGZORSPWN anyone within a second... I'll take toughness out so that you guys killing timed mobs can do the same to PVP'rs.."  aint gonna happen... but thanks for the giggles at seeing you guys pumping out so much nerd rage... keep it up TBH</p>

Cataphrax
09-19-2010, 02:10 AM
<p>I havent been playin long but i do see how toughness is making fights longer but i also see how other stuff is affecting it as well but not to the extent of toughness especially from when i used to play in eof (long break i know <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />).</p><p>Also the most op ward a shaman has isnt even a castable spell <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p><p>A thing to add about grinding out pvp gear.....when ur starting from nothing its not as fast as people claim on here heh in like 3 weeks now ive gotten 2 pieces of lvl 90 pvp gear and thats with participating in every wf that i notice (including while im at work and see it on my laptop lol) i bet ive even been seen leeching my butt off out in them wfs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> but idk if anybody has tried to actually get kills in these wf clusterzergs in half handcrafted/mc gear <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

Notsovilepriest
09-19-2010, 03:58 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also Lol @ very OP wards too, shows how much you know about PvP in this game.</p></blockquote><p>LOL, im sorry you suck at playing your mystic / defiler..... maybe you should roll an assassin...   I guess PVP not being scripted enough to be able to have macros for when your ACT timers ding at you is too hard for you? </p><p>And everyone with toughness or nobody with thoughness... the only way anyone used to die in a stacked PVP group was with a well timed CC.... and even then it was really hard...  now there is no chance of even that...</p><p>You guys like to compare apples and oranges .....  stacked PVP group vs stacked PVP group would pretty much go on forever without CC's ... take those out of the equation back in ROK / TSO days, and you would have had never ending fights as well...</p><p>You guys are so blinded by your hatred of toughness and your hatred of people who dont fight scripted mobs 25 hours a week that you only want to hear what you want to hear.... Oilhin saying "Ok raiders, you get it back, i give up... go out with your OP raid gear and WTFOMFGZORSPWN anyone within a second... I'll take toughness out so that you guys killing timed mobs can do the same to PVP'rs.."  aint gonna happen... but thanks for the giggles at seeing you guys pumping out so much nerd rage... keep it up TBH</p></blockquote><p>Ok, Since you are totally ignorant of the game mechanics let me spell this out for you.</p><p>Wards are right now "OP" only because of toughness over mitigating damage which makes it so the passive wards shamans get (Harbinger red adorn, Shroud of Armor, Runic Armor, Spiritual Leadership) Almost reduce damage done by an crappy to average player down to 0, If you think it's really from the shamans actual wards and that they are not interupted you have no clue. Toughness is the reason healers are so out of balance right now, Lol @ you pretending I can't PvP either. When I played Notso as a main before I retired him, almost everyone on my server knew who I was and at the very least respected how I played my class for PvP in a group or solo and I sat in the top 10 of my class for a long time even being retired over 2 expansions.</p><p>Also, from just today, I definately suck at playing my defiler/mystic(Granted it wasn't open world at the time, Don't run parses in big fights in open world, lags a bit)!</p><p><img src="http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7318/eq2000020v.jpg" width="1440" height="850" /></p>

Aleste
09-19-2010, 02:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also Lol @ very OP wards too, shows how much you know about PvP in this game.</p></blockquote><p>LOL, im sorry you suck at playing your mystic / defiler..... maybe you should roll an assassin...   I guess PVP not being scripted enough to be able to have macros for when your ACT timers ding at you is too hard for you? </p><p>And everyone with toughness or nobody with thoughness... the only way anyone used to die in a stacked PVP group was with a well timed CC.... and even then it was really hard...  now there is no chance of even that...</p><p>You guys like to compare apples and oranges .....  stacked PVP group vs stacked PVP group would pretty much go on forever without CC's ... take those out of the equation back in ROK / TSO days, and you would have had never ending fights as well...</p><p><strong><em>You guys are so blinded by your hatred of toughness and your hatred of people who dont fight scripted mobs 25 hours a week that you only want to hear what you want to hear....</em></strong> Oilhin saying "Ok raiders, you get it back, i give up... go out with your OP raid gear and WTFOMFGZORSPWN anyone within a second... I'll take toughness out so that you guys killing timed mobs can do the same to PVP'rs.."  aint gonna happen... but thanks for the giggles at seeing you guys pumping out so much nerd rage... keep it up TBH</p></blockquote><p>I hardly fight scripted mobs 25 hours a week. Yes I raid but not that much. What is the general opinion of Bg gear being usefull in 99% of the games content but raid gear not being useable in pvp? I mean you can use bg gear to farm instances and quest hell its even useable in most raid zones. For all intensive purposes its just as good as a t1 raid set for most things. Yet raid gear is fail in pvp. To even the playing feild REMOVE bg gears usefullness in pve. If people who pve to pvp cannot use their gear in pvp then people that <em>Strictly pvp </em>should have to grind pve gear to do anything pve wise. After all i mean the gear you earn "pvping" isnt use to trivialize pve content now is it?</p><p>I can almost bet none of the "toughness" defenders have anything to say about this. Because I think everyone can agree this game is at least 50% less fun if you cant do both pvp&pve with some effectivness.</p><p>Btw [Removed for Content] is the point of the legendary instance drops? really I mean comeon.. why bother lfg when you can leech battlegear.</p>

Shrag
09-19-2010, 03:21 PM
<p>I'm pretty sure ghettoblaster and olithin are the same person, it is hard for me to believe that two different people have that low of a IQ score</p>

Darkor
09-19-2010, 03:56 PM
<p>lol</p>

Ralpmet
09-19-2010, 05:12 PM
<p>I lol'd at notsoevilpriest posting a bg screenshot after berating me in one of his threads saying how illegit those are.</p>

Notsovilepriest
09-19-2010, 05:44 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I lol'd at notsoevilpriest posting a bg screenshot after berating me in one of his threads saying how illegit those are.</p></blockquote><p>Say what you want, If I ran ACT I would show you that, but like I said in open PvP in exile it takes too many resources I dont' like running it since a little bit of lag = death. I discredited your sub 90 SS's anyways since as I have said before, I don't think they matter.</p>

Aleste
09-19-2010, 08:29 PM
<p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p>

Cataphrax
09-19-2010, 09:27 PM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p>

Stuckx
09-19-2010, 10:38 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p></blockquote><p>Sure..if you like sacrificing survivability for DPS procs that do maybe 100 more damage than the PVP procs after toughness mitigates it.</p>

Crismorn
09-19-2010, 10:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like winning</p>

Aleste
09-19-2010, 11:07 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like winning</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like competing. But seriously should pvp gear not be disabled in pve? if the gear we spend "25 hours a week in an instance grinding" shouldnt help us in pvp then the gear "pvpers" spent 25 hours in an instance (bg) or in an instance (Wf) grinding shouldnt be used to help in pve  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>

Cataphrax
09-19-2010, 11:08 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like winning</p></blockquote><p>Im not narrow minded enough to not understand the difference from right to left side =/ and to realize that you can mix and match pve with pvp and have an advantage over someone in primarily pvp.</p>

Crismorn
09-20-2010, 01:04 AM
<p>Yes those 4-6 slots of pve gear are gamebreaking.</p>

Eboncross
09-20-2010, 02:27 AM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like winning</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like competing. But seriously should pvp gear not be disabled in pve? if the gear we spend "25 hours a week in an instance grinding" shouldnt help us in pvp then the gear "pvpers" spent 25 hours in an instance (bg) or in an instance (Wf) grinding shouldnt be used to help in pve  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Why don't you just use PVP gear then? Are you not getting tokens? We all didn't come out of the box with instant PVP gear.</p>

Aleste
09-20-2010, 02:44 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like winning</p></blockquote><p>Im not narrow minded enough to not understand the difference from right to left side =/ and to realize that you can mix and match pve with pvp and have an advantage over someone in primarily pvp.</p></blockquote><p>But should you have to? These "fixes" were to help those who choose not to raid. The Choose not to its not like they can't so they feel they shouldnt have to raid to be competitive in their chosen playstyle. I can agree with that but at the same time dont force me to instance pvp gring to compete in pvp. The only reasonable way to obtain "pvp" gear is by running bg (and getting your face stomped untill you get a full set of gear) or Running warfeilds and doing the same. Toughness is a lame way to separate gear sets. I find it hella funny how noone has came stright out and gave an anwser to my question. Why is bg gear useable in pve? If raid gear (ARMOR) is basicaly useless in pvp.</p><p>Weapons and jewelry aside since for the most part they are interchangable. Who is swaping out bg gear with t1/t2 armor to pvp? the losses are not worth it. Thing is reguardless of if you fight scripted mobs in an instance or gear up threw the current "pvp" system your gear should be useable anywhere you decide to use it. We all know toughness was designed for the casual player due to its ease of access. And making the game easymode is not the way to do things. I would assume most people play to be challanged, Id also assume the players who are out getting raid gear on pvp servers are doing it because they want to gear up to play at max potential. They usualy put more time into their toons and they play the game in a social manner (with the guild they raid with). Raid gear was never out of anyones reach and to put in a system like toughness to rob people who pve to pvp of their ability to do so is just crazy.</p><p>All the people who say raiders just want to facepwn everyone your sorely wrong.. pvp gear would be fine with the pvp crit mit, the heroic resistance or toughness. Not all three. Since it went from making pvp geared people able to compete with raid geared players to pvp geared players being to steam roll players in all other gear types. But what better way to force participation in  the pvp mini games (wf) (bg) than penalize people if they dont lol.</p><p>So I propose (again) remove pvp/bg gears effectiveness in any and all pve content, If the penality (toughnes, pvp critmit, heroic resistance x) is to remain. If not then someone give me a reason why pvp gear should be useable in pvp and pve and pve gear is useless or has to be mixed in with pvp gear to be effective.</p>

Eboncross
09-20-2010, 02:51 AM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like winning</p></blockquote><p>Im not narrow minded enough to not understand the difference from right to left side =/ and to realize that you can mix and match pve with pvp and have an advantage over someone in primarily pvp.</p></blockquote><p>But should you have to? These "fixes" were to help those who choose not to raid. The Choose not to its not like they can't so they feel they shouldnt have to raid to be competitive in their chosen playstyle. I can agree with that but at the same time dont force me to instance pvp gring to compete in pvp. The only reasonable way to obtain "pvp" gear is by running bg (and getting your face stomped untill you get a full set of gear) or Running warfeilds and doing the same. Toughness is a lame way to separate gear sets. I find it hella funny how noone has came stright out and gave an anwser to my question. Why is bg gear useable in pve? If raid gear (ARMOR) is basicaly useless in pvp.</p><p>Weapons and jewelry aside since for the most part they are interchangable. Who is swaping out bg gear with t1/t2 armor to pvp? the losses are not worth it. Thing is reguardless of if you fight scripted mobs in an instance or gear up threw the current "pvp" system your gear should be useable anywhere you decide to use it. We all know toughness was designed for the casual player due to its ease of access. And making the game easymode is not the way to do things. I would assume most people play to be challanged, Id also assume the players who are out getting raid gear on pvp servers are doing it because they want to gear up to play at max potential. They usualy put more time into their toons and they play the game in a social manner (with the guild they raid with). Raid gear was never out of anyones reach and to put in a system like toughness to rob people who pve to pvp of their ability to do so is just crazy.</p><p>All the people who say raiders just want to facepwn everyone your sorely wrong.. pvp gear would be fine with the pvp crit mit, the heroic resistance or toughness. Not all three. Since it went from making pvp geared people able to compete with raid geared players to pvp geared players being to steam roll players in all other gear types. But what better way to force participation in  the pvp mini games (wf) (bg) than penalize people if they dont lol.</p><p>So I propose (again) remove pvp/bg gears effectiveness in any and all pve content, If the penality (toughnes, pvp critmit, heroic resistance x) is to remain. If not then someone give me a reason why pvp gear should be useable in pvp and pve and pve gear is useless or has to be mixed in with pvp gear to be effective.</p></blockquote><p>I think we all had growing pains in getting our pvp gear tbh. Hasn't the argument been that its way easier to obtain PVP gear then raid gear?</p>

Ralpmet
09-20-2010, 02:59 AM
<p>Red adorns > anything PvP.</p>

Stuckx
09-20-2010, 03:02 AM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Red adorns > anything PvP.</p></blockquote><p>Yea..they're awesome until you get oneshotted.</p>

Ralpmet
09-20-2010, 03:04 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Red adorns > anything PvP.</p></blockquote><p>Yea..they're awesome until you get oneshotted.</p></blockquote><p>You need to wear more than 1/2 slots of gear to get the benefit of the better red adorns? Since when?</p>

Aleste
09-20-2010, 03:04 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like winning</p></blockquote><p>Im not narrow minded enough to not understand the difference from right to left side =/ and to realize that you can mix and match pve with pvp and have an advantage over someone in primarily pvp.</p></blockquote><p>But should you have to? These "fixes" were to help those who choose not to raid. The Choose not to its not like they can't so they feel they shouldnt have to raid to be competitive in their chosen playstyle. I can agree with that but at the same time dont force me to instance pvp gring to compete in pvp. The only reasonable way to obtain "pvp" gear is by running bg (and getting your face stomped untill you get a full set of gear) or Running warfeilds and doing the same. Toughness is a lame way to separate gear sets. I find it hella funny how noone has came stright out and gave an anwser to my question. Why is bg gear useable in pve? If raid gear (ARMOR) is basicaly useless in pvp.</p><p>Weapons and jewelry aside since for the most part they are interchangable. Who is swaping out bg gear with t1/t2 armor to pvp? the losses are not worth it. Thing is reguardless of if you fight scripted mobs in an instance or gear up threw the current "pvp" system your gear should be useable anywhere you decide to use it. We all know toughness was designed for the casual player due to its ease of access. And making the game easymode is not the way to do things. I would assume most people play to be challanged, Id also assume the players who are out getting raid gear on pvp servers are doing it because they want to gear up to play at max potential. They usualy put more time into their toons and they play the game in a social manner (with the guild they raid with). Raid gear was never out of anyones reach and to put in a system like toughness to rob people who pve to pvp of their ability to do so is just crazy.</p><p>All the people who say raiders just want to facepwn everyone your sorely wrong.. pvp gear would be fine with the pvp crit mit, the heroic resistance or toughness. Not all three. Since it went from making pvp geared people able to compete with raid geared players to pvp geared players being to steam roll players in all other gear types. But what better way to force participation in  the pvp mini games (wf) (bg) than penalize people if they dont lol.</p><p>So I propose (again) remove pvp/bg gears effectiveness in any and all pve content, If the penality (toughnes, pvp critmit, heroic resistance x) is to remain. If not then someone give me a reason why pvp gear should be useable in pvp and pve and pve gear is useless or has to be mixed in with pvp gear to be effective.</p></blockquote><p><strong>I think we all had growing pains in getting our pvp gear tbh.</strong> Hasn't the argument been that its way easier to obtain PVP gear then raid gear?</p></blockquote><p>Not really, I got a full set on a toon i just qued up to bg and laughed the whole time.  It is way eaiser to get pvp gear than it is to get raid gear for one simple reason. There are more ways to get it. You can run bg's afk at wfs (log a toon in that has the buff right before wf ends grab tokens log out rinse repeat). Or last but not least grind writs in open world (This being the longest way). To get raid gear well.... you have to raid (or buy loot rights from someone whos raiding). What im saying is.. For a system that was designed for entry level people its not very entry level. Toughness makes people look like gods and a fresh 90 who didnt lock and farm tokens would have a misrable time vrs any 90 in even a few pieces of bg gear. Toughness, heroic resistance x and pvp crit mit should not cause such a disparity in diffrent types of gear. ALL this type of pvp system is doing is catering to solo players while punishing orginized groups/ guilds of players.</p><p>As a raider idc if they give away a t1 set for pvp tokens - crit mit (bg gear). but the bg gear goes above and beyond entry level gear it is way better than t1 and some t2 gear and can be used in both pvp and pve content.</p><p>What purpose does level 90 legendary gear serve in the game? everyone can get a buffed up riaid gear set -crit mit. Yet they can use it to kill players who have real t1 or t2 sets.. [Removed for Content] is that about?</p>

Ralpmet
09-20-2010, 03:10 AM
<p>Why do so many people post things they don't understand about on the forums?</p><p>1. Yes, you can run BG's, probably the easiest way.</p><p>2. You have to have the current warfield buff to get the tokens from said warfield. You can't get the buff from ant1 then head to cl1 and get tokens there, you have to refresh it every single time.</p><p>3. Afking in warfields, taking 6 hours and 30 minutes a day (to hit 3) would net you 15 tokens a day. Would take more than a week to gear up that way.</p><p>4. Grinding writs in group PvP is probably the 2nd quickest way to get tokens, as you can get up to 60 tokens an hour that way, assuming you're one of the lucky people that finds a hotspot of action.</p><p>5. You can buy raid gear just by logging on, going to an instance, selling the collectables, then spamming in chat that you're looking for a certain piece and someone will raid that zone eventually and sell you the loot when it drops. I'd say that's much easier than doing BG's or WF's.</p><p>6. How about instead of whining about toughness you get them to fix the issue at hand here, or for you at least, which is apparently mobs not critically hitting, which would make non-crit mit gear useless.</p><p>Just sayin'.</p>

Cataphrax
09-20-2010, 03:11 AM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes those 4-6 slots of pve gear are gamebreaking.</p></blockquote><p>its more than 6 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and thats 35% of ur gear <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Eboncross
09-20-2010, 03:22 AM
<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So some talk supporting raid gear being not useable in pvp but still no reply to me saying pvp gear shouldnt be useable in pve?</p></blockquote><p>Raid gear is usable in pvp =/</p></blockquote><p>Not if you like winning</p></blockquote><p>Im not narrow minded enough to not understand the difference from right to left side =/ and to realize that you can mix and match pve with pvp and have an advantage over someone in primarily pvp.</p></blockquote><p>But should you have to? These "fixes" were to help those who choose not to raid. The Choose not to its not like they can't so they feel they shouldnt have to raid to be competitive in their chosen playstyle. I can agree with that but at the same time dont force me to instance pvp gring to compete in pvp. The only reasonable way to obtain "pvp" gear is by running bg (and getting your face stomped untill you get a full set of gear) or Running warfeilds and doing the same. Toughness is a lame way to separate gear sets. I find it hella funny how noone has came stright out and gave an anwser to my question. Why is bg gear useable in pve? If raid gear (ARMOR) is basicaly useless in pvp.</p><p>Weapons and jewelry aside since for the most part they are interchangable. Who is swaping out bg gear with t1/t2 armor to pvp? the losses are not worth it. Thing is reguardless of if you fight scripted mobs in an instance or gear up threw the current "pvp" system your gear should be useable anywhere you decide to use it. We all know toughness was designed for the casual player due to its ease of access. And making the game easymode is not the way to do things. I would assume most people play to be challanged, Id also assume the players who are out getting raid gear on pvp servers are doing it because they want to gear up to play at max potential. They usualy put more time into their toons and they play the game in a social manner (with the guild they raid with). Raid gear was never out of anyones reach and to put in a system like toughness to rob people who pve to pvp of their ability to do so is just crazy.</p><p>All the people who say raiders just want to facepwn everyone your sorely wrong.. pvp gear would be fine with the pvp crit mit, the heroic resistance or toughness. Not all three. Since it went from making pvp geared people able to compete with raid geared players to pvp geared players being to steam roll players in all other gear types. But what better way to force participation in  the pvp mini games (wf) (bg) than penalize people if they dont lol.</p><p>So I propose (again) remove pvp/bg gears effectiveness in any and all pve content, If the penality (toughnes, pvp critmit, heroic resistance x) is to remain. If not then someone give me a reason why pvp gear should be useable in pvp and pve and pve gear is useless or has to be mixed in with pvp gear to be effective.</p></blockquote><p><strong>I think we all had growing pains in getting our pvp gear tbh.</strong> Hasn't the argument been that its way easier to obtain PVP gear then raid gear?</p></blockquote><p>Not really, I got a full set on a toon i just qued up to bg and laughed the whole time.  It is way eaiser to get pvp gear than it is to get raid gear for one simple reason. There are more ways to get it. You can run bg's afk at wfs (log a toon in that has the buff right before wf ends grab tokens log out rinse repeat). Or last but not least grind writs in open world (This being the longest way). To get raid gear well.... you have to raid (or buy loot rights from someone whos raiding). What im saying is.. For a system that was designed for entry level people its not very entry level. Toughness makes people look like gods and a fresh 90 who didnt lock and farm tokens would have a misrable time vrs any 90 in even a few pieces of bg gear. Toughness, heroic resistance x and pvp crit mit should not cause such a disparity in diffrent types of gear. ALL this type of pvp system is doing is catering to solo players while punishing orginized groups/ guilds of players.</p><p>As a raider idc if they give away a t1 set for pvp tokens - crit mit (bg gear). but the bg gear goes above and beyond entry level gear it is way better than t1 and some t2 gear and can be used in both pvp and pve content.</p><p>What purpose does level 90 legendary gear serve in the game? everyone can get a buffed up riaid gear set -crit mit. Yet they can use it to kill players who have real t1 or t2 sets.. [Removed for Content] is that about?</p></blockquote><p>So you want to be able to go around and one shot the majority of the population?  Sounds kinda boring to me. Don't get me wrong the "Pillow Fights" at level 90 in PVP gear are stupid and something needs to be changed. I like longer fights but more than 5 minutes is stupid too long. I jsut dont understand your argument. You can gear up in PVP gear too. Sounds liek you just want to be in GOD mode compared to 75% of the population. boring if you ask me</p>

Aleste
09-20-2010, 03:26 AM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why do so many people post things they don't understand about on the forums?</p><p><strong>1. Yes, you can run BG's, probably the easiest way.</strong></p><p><strong>2. You have to have the current warfield buff to get the tokens from said warfield. You can't get the buff from ant1 then head to cl1 and get tokens there, you have to refresh it every single time.</strong></p><p><strong>3. Afking in warfields, taking 6 hours and 30 minutes a day (to hit 3) would net you 15 tokens a day. Would take more than a week to gear up that way.</strong></p><p><strong>4. Grinding writs in group PvP is probably the 2nd quickest way to get tokens, as you can get up to 60 tokens an hour that way, assuming you're one of the lucky people that finds a hotspot of action.</strong></p><p><strong>5. You can buy raid gear just by logging on, going to an instance, selling the collectables, then spamming in chat that you're looking for a certain piece and someone will raid that zone eventually and sell you the loot when it drops. I'd say that's much easier than doing BG's or WF's</strong>.</p><p><strong>6. How about instead of whining about toughness you get them to fix the issue at hand here, or for you at least, which is apparently mobs not critically hitting, which would make non-crit mit gear useless.</strong></p><p>Just sayin'.</p></blockquote><p>#1 we agree on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>#2 I never said they log on then zone to other wf now did i? I know the buff is only for the zone.. so if you buff in ant log out then log in at the end you get tokens.. Then log out again and log in next ant you get tokens again.</p><p>#3 Ok ill give you the math.. raids last idk. 3-4 hours maybe? most raid guilds raid at least 4 days a week.. takes anywhere from two weeks to a month to gear up if your lucky.</p><p>#4 Yes writ grinding is fast ill admit but when everyones on your recent then what?</p><p>#5 Yes you can buy Raid gear (from people who are raiding not afking for a week to gain gear.) Oh btw what gear did you use to run the instances <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>#6 The issue at hand is Toughness.. This issue is not mine alone look at all the others posting on how it should be removed i did not start the thread.</p><p>The quote "just sayin" makes you sound 14. If you want to keep a gear advantage because your teenage angst stops you from GROUPING with people and playing the game to its full potential fine just spit it out lol</p><p>Im saying if Raid gear = no toughness (therefore not valued in pvp) PVP Gear= no stats usuable in pve (turn it into apparence armor when you hit a mob for all i care).</p><p>So after all this time since i asked why pvp gear should function in pve when pve gear is useless in pvp..</p><p>Noone anwsers.</p>

Ralpmet
09-20-2010, 03:33 AM
<p>Because the game mechanics dictate that there is no mob critically hitting in instances at all maybe.</p><p>I answered your question. People aren't agreeing with you for the most part, if you log on in game people say that toughness should be scaled back and pvp crit mit should be increased which is exactly what I'd love to see happen. You'd still be s.o.l. when that happens if you don't PvP. There is no way to make PvP gear useless in PvE without destroying it, as the "unless engaged in PvP" portion doesn't count until you fight back, which means if the game sees you as naked then the people hitting you will kill you as if you're naked.</p><p>Like I said, if the game mechanics change in a way that forces people to wear more critical mitigation gear in PvE then the BG gear would become useless in PvE. It would also kill anyone's chance of running zones fresh off the boat because how do you get crit mit when you can't kill the mobs that drop it?</p>

Aleste
09-20-2010, 03:38 AM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>Because the game mechanics dictate that there is no mob critically hitting in instances at all maybe.</strong></p><p><em><strong>I answered your question. People aren't agreeing with you for the most part</strong></em>, if you log on in game people say that toughness should be scaled back and pvp crit mit should be increased which is exactly what I'd love to see happen. You'd still be s.o.l. when that happens if you don't PvP. <strong>There is no way to make PvP gear useless in PvE without destroying it, as the "unless engaged in PvP" portion doesn't count until you fight back,</strong> which means if the game sees you as naked then the people hitting you will kill you as if you're naked.</p><p>Like I said, if the game mechanics change in a way that forces people to wear more critical mitigation gear in PvE then the BG gear would become useless in PvE. It would also kill anyone's chance of running zones fresh off the boat because how do you get crit mit when you can't kill the mobs that drop it?</p></blockquote><p>Only the people who are pro toughness have been disagreeing with me. Mobs do not crit in instances because instance gear for the most part does not have crit mit. What it sounds like your saying is either people should raid to run instances or crit mit should be added to instance gear (which would nerf raid progression).</p><p>Which mobs have you killed recently without fighting back?</p>

Aleste
09-20-2010, 03:50 AM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Red adorns > anything PvP.</p></blockquote><p>I lol at comments like this.. Have you seen most red adorns? the bonuses are nullified when compared to the extra survivability of pvp gear. What good is an extra tick of a heal or dot or an extra deathsave when the damage is mitigated to nothing. Check the red adorns.. Then check how players adorn their gear. Look at the red adorns most classes get. They are not all that stellar.</p>

Ralpmet
09-20-2010, 03:55 AM
<p>I'm not dumb, you can't try to play off that every single class has at least 1 good red adornment.</p><p>Secondly, what the hell are you talking about mobs hitting back for? Did you even read what I said?</p><p>"<span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> <strong>There is no way to make PvP gear useless in PvE without destroying it, as the "unless engaged in PvP" portion doesn't count until you fight back,</strong> which means if the game sees you as naked then the people hitting you will kill you as if you're naked."</span></p><p>Bolding a portion of what I said doesn't mean that I didn't say the rest, lol.</p>