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Darkor
08-09-2010, 02:53 PM
<p>I am the only one that hates the idea of having to carry 2 different armor sets one for pve and one for pvp? Shouldnt the whole toughness stuff be removed? Imo yes it should.</p>

Peak
08-09-2010, 02:55 PM
<p>Yup.</p>

Zacarus
08-09-2010, 04:12 PM
<p>No.  Toughness levels the pvp vs pve (raider) playing field.  Keep toughness, and keep it on pvp gear only.  I'm sure you have 7 to 21 open slots in your bags for some spare pve gear.</p>

bRz
08-09-2010, 07:33 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No.  Toughness levels the pvp vs pve (raider) playing field.  Keep toughness, and keep it on pvp gear only.  I'm sure you have 7 to 21 open slots in your bags for some spare pve gear.</p></blockquote><p>agreed, while I do think that survivability needs to be looked at, removing toughness alone certainly puts raiders one up, yet again.</p>

convict
08-09-2010, 07:59 PM
<p><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am the only one that hates the idea of having to carry 2 different armor sets one for pve and one for pvp? Shouldnt the whole toughness stuff be removed? Imo yes it should.</p></blockquote><p>Agree</p>

convict
08-09-2010, 08:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No.  Toughness levels the pvp vs pve (raider) playing field.  Keep toughness, and keep it on pvp gear only.  I'm sure you have 7 to 21 open slots in your bags for some spare pve gear.</p></blockquote><p>Want it? Go get it.</p>

BlueEternal
08-09-2010, 08:15 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yup.</p></blockquote>

bRz
08-09-2010, 09:08 PM
<p><cite>convict wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No.  Toughness levels the pvp vs pve (raider) playing field.  Keep toughness, and keep it on pvp gear only.  I'm sure you have 7 to 21 open slots in your bags for some spare pve gear.</p></blockquote><p>Want it? Go get it.</p></blockquote><p>No thank you.</p><p> How about this, lets make the absolute best items for pvp things you have to craft for yourself, now lets make crafting something you have to schedule your real life around and sit there at the forge for 3 or 4 hours a night 5 days a week. Oh you don't want to craft? tough [Removed for Content] cause all those uber crafters have gear that way outclasses yours.</p><p> PvP gear should be best for pvp'ing, PvE gear should be best for PvE'ing, why is that so hard to grasp?</p>

Bono
08-10-2010, 01:29 AM
<p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>convict wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No.  Toughness levels the pvp vs pve (raider) playing field.  Keep toughness, and keep it on pvp gear only.  I'm sure you have 7 to 21 open slots in your bags for some spare pve gear.</p></blockquote><p>Want it? Go get it.</p></blockquote><p>No thank you.</p><p> How about this, lets make the absolute best items for pvp things you have to craft for yourself, now lets make crafting something you have to schedule your real life around and sit there at the forge for 3 or 4 hours a night 5 days a week. Oh you don't want to craft? tough [Removed for Content] cause all those uber crafters have gear that way outclasses yours.</p><p> PvP gear should be best for pvp'ing, PvE gear should be best for PvE'ing, why is that so hard to grasp?</p></blockquote><p>Agree, PVP gear for PVP and PVE for PVE. I would go one step farther to say the potency on RAID gear should only work in PVE. To me the biggest game breaker for the PVE gear is that high potency.</p><p>If pvp gear potency doesn't work in PVE then the potency for PVE gear shouldn't work in PVP.</p>

Peak
08-10-2010, 11:28 AM
<p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>convict wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No.  Toughness levels the pvp vs pve (raider) playing field.  Keep toughness, and keep it on pvp gear only.  I'm sure you have 7 to 21 open slots in your bags for some spare pve gear.</p></blockquote><p>Want it? Go get it.</p></blockquote><p>No thank you.</p><p> How about this, lets make the absolute best items for pvp things you have to craft for yourself, now lets make crafting something you have to schedule your real life around and sit there at the forge for 3 or 4 hours a night 5 days a week. Oh you don't want to craft? tough [Removed for Content] cause all those uber crafters have gear that way outclasses yours.</p><p> PvP gear should be best for pvp'ing, PvE gear should be best for PvE'ing, why is that so hard to grasp?</p></blockquote><p>I was in a guild raiding like 10 hours a week and killing content. Why can't you be in one of those guilds?</p><p>20 hours a week = nonsense</p>

Thinwizzy
08-10-2010, 11:48 AM
<p>How about combat gear is for combat?  This game has 2 sides to it: pvp and pve.  We need to stop drawing lines between the 2 and trying to make everyone wear the exact same gear as everyone else.  The more time and effort an item takes to achieve, the better it needs to be for both sides of the game.  Dividing the sides like this xpac has done, only makes both of them less fun.  We are all playing the same game where we all have equal opportunity to go get the gear that is in it. </p><p>The pvp system needs a major overhaul.  Toughness needs scrapped.  Crit mit needs to be returned similar to how it was in TSO.  The pvp rewards system needs completely reworked.  PvP gear used to take time and effort through alot of solo - 6 man pvping to aquire.  It used to mean something to get your full set of pvp gear, now it is a complete joke.</p><p>This current attitude of everyone should be rewarded equally is killing our server.  It makes the game stagnant and removes the feeling of accomplishment that makes MMOs different from other types of games.</p>

bRz
08-10-2010, 12:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>convict wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No.  Toughness levels the pvp vs pve (raider) playing field.  Keep toughness, and keep it on pvp gear only.  I'm sure you have 7 to 21 open slots in your bags for some spare pve gear.</p></blockquote><p>Want it? Go get it.</p></blockquote><p>No thank you.</p><p> How about this, lets make the absolute best items for pvp things you have to craft for yourself, now lets make crafting something you have to schedule your real life around and sit there at the forge for 3 or 4 hours a night 5 days a week. Oh you don't want to craft? tough [Removed for Content] cause all those uber crafters have gear that way outclasses yours.</p><p> PvP gear should be best for pvp'ing, PvE gear should be best for PvE'ing, why is that so hard to grasp?</p></blockquote><p>I was in a guild raiding like 10 hours a week and killing content. Why can't you be in one of those guilds?</p><p>20 hours a week = nonsense</p></blockquote><p>Because Id rather spend that time pvp'ing. I spend about 15 hours a week playing this game and I would prefer to spend it pvping and not raiding, and playing when I choose to play and not having scheduled playtime. If you want to play the game that way great, I have no problems with it, but if you really think that I and others like me should have to raid pve to have competitive gear in the pvp aspect of the game then I am afraid we are at an impasse.</p><p>I agree with you Thinwizzy in that it is currently to easy to get pvp gear and many things in pvp need changed, however I am simply stating that  to make the ideal pvp gear be pve gear only benefits raiders. So often on these exact same message boards are threads stating that people want pvp to be more skill based and more strategic, widening the gear gap in pvp does the opposite.</p>

convict
08-10-2010, 12:52 PM
<p>That's the problem we have with this game, everyone wants instant gratification. He has something I dont, cry on the forums until SoE gives the little guy what he wants. My kids dont even whine this much when they want something. Everything has to be handed to them, and thats why we have 2 sets of gear.</p><p>BTW, I have never raided. Oh, and since I cant sit in front of the computer as much as the next guy, can I get my pvp armor for less tokens? Thanks..</p>

bRz
08-10-2010, 01:24 PM
<p><cite>convict wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's the problem we have with this game, everyone wants instant gratification. He has something I dont, cry on the forums until SoE gives the little guy what he wants. My kids dont even whine this much when they want something. Everything has to be handed to them, and thats why we have 2 sets of gear.</p><p>BTW, I have never raided. Oh, and since I cant sit in front of the computer as much as the next guy, can I get my pvp armor for less tokens? Thanks..</p></blockquote><p>I am not sure if you are directing that comment at me, but I am not sure where you got that I want things handed to me. I have no problem earning my gear, that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.</p>

Nemas Ravenor
08-10-2010, 04:00 PM
<p>ugh, major rant inc...</p><p>Everyone knows that this game wasn't designed for PVP.  It has always been about tackling PVE content and every AA tree and piece of gear that the developers come up with is supposed to make it so that you can tackle content that becomes harder and harder the further you go in the game.</p><p>Adding an element to the game where you can kill a person from an opposing faction is supposed to be just a single element to the larger world.  It isn't the <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">reason </span></strong>for the game to exist as so many of the PVP only crowd seem to think.</p><p>But what's happened, it seems, is that too many people don't want to play the actual game anymore.  All they want to do is stand in a mosh pit and AOE in order to get gear for all of their alts. </p><p>If you took away the abiilty to get PVP gear at all, then the people who don't actually <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">like</span></strong> this game would leave.  (fine by me).  But they wouldn't even go to an Xbox game like Call of Duty, because even that requires effort.  You can't just stand around fifty other people and mash buttons to get free gear in other games.  You have to do something called <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">trying</span></strong>.  But we, even as a society, let alone in a game, do not reward effort anymore</p><p>But raiders <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">try</span></strong>.  Raiders care about both aspects of the EQ2 game.  And even within raid guilds there has always been a heirarchy.  I won't list names, but we all know there are guilds killing everything on hard mode, while others are still farming the easy stuff. </p><p>There were guilds who could kill Avatars, and then there were those who could clear T1 raid content but had no hope of ever pulling Valor etc.</p><p>So shouldn't the people who can tackle the hardest content in the game, who can get the most exclusive gear, be able to kill the person who doesn't do that?  Why should the person who logs on for a few hours a night and mindlessly stands in a zerg, or does BGs over and over, have as much of a chance to kill the person who raids the hardest content the game was designed for?</p><p>There used to be this adage about life that said "you get out of something, what you put into it."  But this is just not true anymore.  I could have a full set of T3 raid gear and jewelry and not stand a chance in a Warfield just because there is no toughness and crit mit makes no difference in PVP.  And it could have taken literally <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">months</span></strong> to get all of that gear, but the player who stood in the zerg for a few hours every night, who has put zero effort into playing the actual game as it was intended, will destroy me if I don't also go grind PVP tokens or do battlegrounds for that gear?</p><p>I've said it before and I will say it again.  Get rid of PVP gear entirely, let us play the game as it was intended, with PVP as one element to the larger world, and let the people who just want to grind tokens leave if they don't like playing the game itself.  And then when we go out to PVP the person who succedes will be the person who has put the most time and effort into the game; which is as it should be.</p>

Neskonlith
08-10-2010, 04:30 PM
<p><cite>Nemas Ravenor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've said it before and I will say it again.  Get rid of PVP gear entirely, let us play the game as it was intended, with PVP as one element to the larger world, and let the people who just want to grind tokens leave if they don't like playing the game itself.  And then when we go out to PVP the person who succedes will be the person who has put the most time and effort into the game; which is as it should be.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Nagafen is a PVP server.  If you desire a Blue game where PVE efforts yield the greatest PVE rewards, stick with a Blue server.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE Raiders get PVE gear that has the best PVP effects by hiding in the safety of closed PVE instances, in immunity, without making any PVP effort or assuming any PVP risk at all.  Where is the "effort" in PVP to justify that PVE gear being so OP in PVP?  Where is the PVP risk vs reward to justify PVE items that easymode the PVP game?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">What good reason should allow closed instance farmers in their immunity to be allowed to get the best PVP gear risk-free as they have done nothing in PVP to earn it?</span>  <em>"you get out of something, what you put into it."</em> <span style="color: #ff0000;"> - huh, this means PVE raid gear should have zero effects in PVP!</span></p>

Nemas Ravenor
08-10-2010, 04:59 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nemas Ravenor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've said it before and I will say it again.  Get rid of PVP gear entirely, let us play the game as it was intended, with PVP as one element to the larger world, and let the people who just want to grind tokens leave if they don't like playing the game itself.  And then when we go out to PVP the person who succedes will be the person who has put the most time and effort into the game; which is as it should be.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Nagafen is a PVP server.  If you desire a Blue game where PVE efforts yield the greatest PVE rewards, stick with a Blue server.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE Raiders get PVE gear that has the best PVP effects by hiding in the safety of closed PVE instances, in immunity, without making any PVP effort or assuming any PVP risk at all.  Where is the "effort" in PVP to justify that PVE gear being so OP in PVP?  Where is the PVP risk vs reward to justify PVE items that easymode the PVP game?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">What good reason should allow closed instance farmers in their immunity to be allowed to get the best PVP gear risk-free as they have done nothing in PVP to earn it?</span>  <em>"you get out of something, what you put into it."</em> <span style="color: #ff0000;"> - huh, this means PVE raid gear should have zero effects in PVP.</span></p></blockquote><p>You act like there is any risk in PVP at all.  But trust me, there is no risk in PVP at all.  There is no fame loss upon death and there is no time committment or effort involved. </p><p>Step 1.  Go to CL or ANT when the little message tells you to.</p><p>Step 2.  AOE like crazy.</p><p>Step 3.  Get tokens from kills and being in a warfield.</p><p>Step 4.  If you die, revive and run back in with no loss of anything in order to repeat steps 1-3.</p><p>How hard, interesting or full of risk is that?   In a few weeks of doing that you'll have a full set of PVP gear and can start to gear out alts who can be leveled to 90 (most likely in a safe instance) and then just put on gear that was completely unearned by that toon.</p><p>And yet you suggest that the people who put the effort and real time committment to play the entire game as it was intended, who still want to be able to PVP, are somehow second class citizens because this is a "PVP server, so get with the times and mash buttons mindlessly if you want to survive?"</p><p>Your response is typical of the statements that brought us to this point in the first place.  "Raiding was too hard and took too much time, I don't want to do anything hard or time consuming, yada yada."</p><p>Raiders actually play the whole game and are hands down also the very best at PVP so don't assume for one second that just because someone likes to raid doesn't mean they don't still love to PVP, we just see the flaws in the system.  Unlike others who love the government cheese.</p>

Ralpmet
08-10-2010, 05:15 PM
<p>People who say you just go into to the WF and die over and over and hope for updates must be getting really crummy amounts of tokens. I mean, seriously, I make half the tokens going to warfields that I do just hunting random people in random zones, because there's always someone leveling and they're always easy to kill.</p><p>I don't care if people abuse the wf system to net large amounts of tokens, I don't, and I don't feel that you should call what I do risk free. I'm risking my time, I'm risking the coin i rake in killing people (yeah, let's bank after every kill, that doesn't get old super fast), I'm risking my own reputation (even if no one else sees my k:d I do, and I don't do things half-arsed.)</p><p>What do you risk? A repair bill? What a joke.</p>

Neskonlith
08-10-2010, 05:19 PM
<p><cite>Nemas Ravenor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Raiders actually play the whole game and are hands down also the very best at PVP so don't assume for one second that just because someone likes to raid doesn't mean they don't still love to PVP, we just see the flaws in the system.  Unlike others who love the government cheese. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">lol  I raid; I have raid gear.  I also have PVP gear, but thanks for trying to deflect attention away from the fact that PVE raid rewards require zero PVP effort.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Closed instances, full immunity, zero PVP risk, zero PVP effort = best PVP gear in game?  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">When you play a card game, do you also mark the cards, stack the deck and hide extra aces up your sleeve to guarantee that your buddies will never win against you?  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE raid gear trivializes the PVP system, so what's the point to a competitive PVP game when there's no competition?</span></p>

Nemas Ravenor
08-10-2010, 05:30 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nemas Ravenor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Raiders actually play the whole game and are hands down also the very best at PVP so don't assume for one second that just because someone likes to raid doesn't mean they don't still love to PVP, we just see the flaws in the system.  Unlike others who love the government cheese. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">lol  I raid; I have raid gear.  I also have PVP gear, but thanks for trying to deflect attention away from the fact that PVE raid rewards require zero PVP effort.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Closed instances, full immunity, zero PVP risk, zero PVP effort = best PVP gear in game?  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">When you play a card game, do you also mark the cards, stack the deck and hide extra aces up your sleeve to guarantee that your buddies will never win against you?  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE raid gear trivializes the PVP system, so what's the point to a competitive PVP game when there's no competition?</span></p></blockquote><p>When I play a card game, I actually play the card game.  I don't go find a group of people playing the game at another table to get free "points" (or whatever analogy works for you) that I can spend to win another card game.</p><p>The PVP system we have trivializes itself.  Being in raid gear doesn't do that.  The people who only want to play one aspect of the game and who cried that they couldn't compete with people who raid, and take the entire game seriously, they are the ones who have trivialized it.</p><p>And your word, trivialize, is the perfect summation for what PVP has become.</p>

Neskonlith
08-10-2010, 05:39 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE raiders have absolutely earned the gear to trivialize PVE, and they should enjoy that reward.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE raiders have <span style="text-decoration: underline;">not</span> in any form earned the right to have PVE gear that trivializes PVP encounters.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It is easy to call PVP a joke when you have godmode PVE gear that invalidates the PVP efforts of others.</span></p>

Nemas Ravenor
08-10-2010, 05:59 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE raiders have absolutely earned the gear to trivialize PVE, and they should enjoy that reward.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE raiders have <span style="text-decoration: underline;">not</span> in any form earned the right to have PVE gear that trivializes PVP encounters.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It is easy to call PVP a joke when you have godmode PVE gear that invalidates the PVP efforts of others.</span></p></blockquote><p>+1 to Godmode.</p><p>-1 to Warfields and Battlegrounds</p>

Toxicz
08-11-2010, 01:56 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How about combat gear is for combat?  This game has 2 sides to it: pvp and pve.  We need to stop drawing lines between the 2 and trying to make everyone wear the exact same gear as everyone else.  The more time and effort an item takes to achieve, the better it needs to be for both sides of the game.  Dividing the sides like this xpac has done, only makes both of them less fun.  We are all playing the same game where we all have equal opportunity to go get the gear that is in it. </p><p>The pvp system needs a major overhaul.  Toughness needs scrapped.  Crit mit needs to be returned similar to how it was in TSO.  The pvp rewards system needs completely reworked.  PvP gear used to take time and effort through alot of solo - 6 man pvping to aquire.  It used to mean something to get your full set of pvp gear, now it is a complete joke.</p><p>This current attitude of everyone should be rewarded equally is killing our server.  It makes the game stagnant and removes the feeling of accomplishment that makes MMOs different from other types of games.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p>

Jeht
08-11-2010, 02:27 AM
<p>more qqing than the forums have room for</p>

Ralpmet
08-11-2010, 02:30 AM
<p>If you like to raid, then you raid. You then receive gear that is "geared" towards raiding.</p><p>If you like to pvp/bg, then you pvp/bg. You then receive gear that is "geared" towards pvp/bg.</p><p>There is a mild overlap, as the best of both worlds is still good in either, but the point is still fairly obvious.</p>

Culsu
08-11-2010, 03:12 AM
<p>Having 2 gear sets sucks for newer players like me.  As far as I'm concerned though, gonna hit SWTOR anways, so I really don't care what EQ2 has to offer anymore, just hanging around for teh lulz.</p>

Darkor
08-12-2010, 11:58 AM
<p>Some of you guys actually misunderstand me. I have no problem with aquiring armor throu pvp. Get all the pvp armor you want. But it should NOT be superior to PvE armor. And i dont mean statwise. The whole toughness crap needs to go.</p>